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The contents of the Caretaker Government 1945 page were merged into Churchill caretaker ministry on 22 April 2012. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
A fact from Churchill caretaker ministry appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 24 September 2020 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
-- Gary J 12:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I have looked at The Times of London report on the formation of the government, in its edition of 26 May 1945. This clearly identifies Lloyd George as a member of the Liberal Party. -- Gary J 00:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The page Caretaker Government 1945 has been merged into this page, as the two were redundant. This name follows consistent usage, and was retained. I also adjusted the title per WP:CAPS, added an image and provided some small revisions. RGloucester ( talk) 18:24, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I did a fair bit of reading about this earlier in the year after this cropped up on the main Winston Churchill biography page. Martin Gilbert, the most detailed account, does not talk of Churchill being asked to form "a caretaker government", indeed the only person who does so is Anthony Eden in his turgid memoirs. Most authoritative accounts refer to it by the proper name "the Caretaker Government". Churchill himself (in the final volume of "History of the Second World War") mentions that the government came to be known as "the Caretakers", i.e. a derogatory nickname which he hints that he found irritating.
"A caretaker" administration is one with reduced powers, often led by an individual who is not being expected to stand for re-election. The concept is legally meaningless in the UK - a government is a government, part of "the Crown" and performing under "binding ministerial advice" functions which were still the King's in 1688. That is why many government functions, e.g. declaring war and deploying troops, are conducted by the Prime Minister under Royal Prerogative and (in law) Parliament is asked merely as a courtesy. The idea that the rise and fall of governments coincides exactly with General Elections is one which evolved throughout the nineteenth century and this is one of those few occasions on which it did not happen in the twentieth century either.
If Churchill had won the 1945 election, which (as every schoolboy knows) almost everybody expected him to do, it would now be a piece of political history trivia that the National Government (a de facto Tory government) of 1945-50 had taken office a few weeks before its triumphant election victory, like Campbell-Bannerman's Liberal Government in December 1905. Instead, because it was so short-lived, the name stuck, like the "Who? Who?" Ministry of 1852. Paulturtle ( talk) 11:32, 6 August 2015 (UTC) And conversely only political history geeks know that Pitt the Younger's ministry, which lasted for 18 years, was initially known as the "Mince Pie" ministry as it was not expected to last past Christmas 1783. Paulturtle ( talk) 00:38, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
Came across a quote which sheds a bit more light on Churchill's view of the nickname, although the book in question makes the error of referring to it as "a caretaker government" a few pages earlier.00:38, 3 April 2016 (UTC) Paulturtle ( talk) This comment is referring to Hermiston, who includes Churchill's speech in Woodford "condoning" the nickname, but a few pages earlier talks of "a" caretaker government, erroneously I think. Paulturtle ( talk) 01:25, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
I refer once again to my comments of a few years ago - although it is common for books to talk sloppily of this government as "a" caretaker administration, the more authoritative ones don't do so. That includes Martin Gilbert and Andrew Roberts, whose recent brick-sized Churchill biog just says that he was asked to form "a Conservative Government". Churchill himself (in his "History Of The Second World War") implies that it was just a nickname which he found irritating. We don't know exactly what was said between Prime Minister and Monarch (contrary to a lot of erroneous reporting, even our esteemed Supreme Court chose to "take no view" on Prime Ministerial advice to the Monarch last September) although Roberts does claim to have consulted the King's private diary in researching his biography. I did have a quick trawl through Hansard Online, both debates and written answers, but it didn't shed any light - but then you wouldn't necessarily expect it to, as governments are not legally appointed by Parliament. I think if one wanted to dig deeper one would have to find a book which looked at press reports, and whether the BBC and major newspapers talked of "a caretaker government", even if their reports weren't strictly accurate. But that would be digging deeper than any Churchill biography goes.
In autumn 2019 there was talk of "a caretaker government" being formed, pending a general election, if Boris Johnson's government had fallen and the Opposition had been able to unite behind another Prime Minister. But that was last year, and we are concerned with the events of May 1945. Paulturtle ( talk) 01:44, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Wasted Time R ( talk · contribs) 12:26, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
I have begun reviewing this article.
Wasted Time R (
talk)
12:26, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
A nicely done article as far as it goes, but needs to go a bit further
Regarding sources, this article leans heavily on the Jenkins biography. That's a well-received work and there is nothing wrong with using it, but as you know there have been a bunch of other treatments of Churchill and it would be good to incorporate some of what they have to say about this period. In particular the Gilbert volume that covers this ministry could be used as a source.
Getting additional perspectives is especially important for the description of Churchill at Potsdam. Do other authors agree with the conclusion that Churchill's performance there was weak? And would it have made any difference in the outcomes with Stalin if his performance had been better? Besides Churchill biographies, a good source to consult might be Michael Neiberg, Potsdam: The End of World War II and the Remaking of Europe (2015), which seems to have a more positive interpretation of Potsdam than the usual historical account.
Even though this ministry only last two months, there was a lot going on during that time, so it would be good to have some sort of historical assessment of the caretaker government. This 2001 article "Churchill and the Conservative Party" by Stuart Ball p 328 says, "The 'caretaker' government of 1945 is sometimes unfairly dismissed, but it was a sound and capable team." But it sounds like there are other views out there.
It would also be good to cover what if any changes were made regarding social/domestic/quality-of-life issues during this time. Civilians were no longer under threat of attack, did the government take advantage of that to relax any restrictions? What about rationing and the like?
Another aspect that can be drawn out more is the change Churchill as prime minister had to undergo switching from a coalition government to a party-oriented one. This 2010 article "Winston Churchill's "Crazy Broadcast": Party, Nation, and the 1945 Gestapo Speech" by Richard Toye explores the disastrous 'Gestapo speech' and analyzes why someone who was so good at finding the right public words during the war could go so off-base here. Part of his conclusion is that Churchill didn't realize the level of political trouble he was in. He was also used to being Prime Minister on a non-partisan pedestal and had trouble dealing with that no longer being true.
Some of those themes are also brought out by this 1980 article "The 1945 General Election Reconsidered" by Henry Pelling. And the Geoffrey Best book Churchill: A Study in Greatness talks about how Churchill didn't want to return to regular politics given that the war with Japan was still going on (chapter 21).
Regarding images for the article, I think the top image should be something that was taken during the caretaker ministry, not before. A good choice would be File:Winston Churchill during the General Election Campaign in 1945 HU55965.jpg from 27 June 1945, which is from the right time and also shows him more in a political pose than statesman pose, which is appropriate for the nature of the caretaker period. Another possibility is File:British Political Personalities 1936-1945 HU59722.jpg but I think the first one is better.
For the section about plans to extend the coalition, a good one to include would be File:Winston Churchill waves to crowds in Whitehall in London as they celebrate VE Day, 8 May 1945. H41849.jpg, because it shows Bevin right next to Churchill and gets across the idea of the need for the coalition coming to a close.
There is also this odd cartoon, File:Caretaker Churchill on the Job (16547321940).jpg, which explicitly refers to him as a caretaker, but I'm not sure what the point of it is (the explanation in the Commons description doesn't make sense to me). Finally, File:Voters arriving at a polling station in the Italian Hospital, Queen Square, Holborn, London to cast their vote in the General Election of 1945. D25102.jpg might be a good image to illustrate the general election section - it's got the feel of the time.
Anyway, the article is very good as far as it goes, I just think it needs to cover a bit more in places. Wasted Time R ( talk) 00:06, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Hello again, WTR. I think I've just about finished now. I've answered each of your points individually above. Would you like to take another look when time allows and see what you think? Thanks again and all the best. No Great Shaker ( talk) 17:00, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
@ No Great Shaker: The article is definitely much better now, definitely more comprehensive, good work. A few further comments here and there on content:
It might be good to add to the lede the thing about the election being on 5 July but votes not counted until 26 July due to so many overseas service personnel. It's interesting, it was relevant then in terms of how Potsdam was handled, and it has some relevance to current times what with elections taking longer to count due to effects of the pandemic.
I think the caption of the V-E day photo should explicitly state that Anderson continued on in the caretaker ministry but Bevin did not. Saying so illustrates the effect of the end of the coalition.
Regarding the discussions about extending the coalition, it's important to add that at the time many people expected the war against Japan to continue well into 1946. Thus Labour proposing an election in October 1945, which to modern readers may look like they wanted an election after the war with Japan was over, was not that. And it should be made clear that once Labor wouldn't agree to extending the coalition to the end of the Japan war, the Conservatives wanted to hold it as soon as possible to capitalize on Churchill's wartime popularity (hence July) whereas Labour wanted to delay it a few months to let that popularity wear off (hence October). Pelling p 401 is a source for all this.
I think the Potsdam section should begin by describing how the status of Eastern Europe, and especially that of Poland, was of great concern to Churchill during the entire time after V-E day – it wasn't just at Potsdam that this came up. Adding material on this will also set up the he was much more interested in what was happening in Eastern Europe than in Great Britain remark that is made later in the article.
I think a broader quote from the Gestapo speech should be provided in the article, to give a more complete idea of what Churchill actually said and how it showed a lack of political feel on his part. The start of the Toye article has this: "No Socialist Government conducting the entire life and industry of the country could afford to allow free, sharp, or violently-worded expressions of public discontent. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance."
I've put it into a quote paragraph. Much better. No Great Shaker ( talk) 03:12, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
A couple of usage things:
What is the significance of the same day that King George VI visited the recently liberated Channel Islands,[21]? I'm not seeing the connection to the rest of the sentence. And that's a run-on sentence in any case, I would suggest breaking it up. For saying in a letter that he (Churchill) had – since this isn't part of the quote, you can simply say saying in a letter that Churchill had.
And a few comments on citing practices:
The three cites to the Patricia Nicol book are missing page numbers.
For the Pelling journal article, which is cited in six different places, you can move it into the Bibliography and then short-form cite it to specific pages (i.e., the same way you do for the Toye journal article).
A couple of the Toye page ranges use a hyphen when they should have an endash.
The article is inconsistent about whether books cited only once are included in the Bibliography and short-form cited (Butler & Buter, Roberts) or are not in the Bibliography but instead are full-cited in place in that one footnote (Mercer, Leonard, Fenby, couple of others). I've seen it done both ways in WP articles, but the second approach is more common.
And I understand about your having no access at present to certain books and thus putting them in Further reading. The good thing about WP is that articles are never finished, so you can always modify the article if you get access to those books down the road. Wasted Time R ( talk) 15:22, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Hello again, Wasted Time R, and thanks for the feedback. Sorry I've been unavailable for the last two days but have caught up now. Could you please take a look at the changes and see if they are okay? All the best. No Great Shaker ( talk) 03:37, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
The result was: promoted by
Cwmhiraeth (
talk)
08:43, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
Improved to Good Article status by No Great Shaker ( talk). Self-nominated at 21:01, 8 September 2020 (UTC).
I've just removed some bizarre material claiming that the Japanese called a ceasefire in May 1945, leading the Allies to land in western Malaya and enter Thailand. Nothing of the sort ever happened - this seems to be confusing what happened after the cease-fire when the Japanese announced their intention to surrender in mid-August 1945. Nick-D ( talk) 10:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
Standard histories like Hermiston's book (it is online here) and biographies of Churchill like Jenkins and Roberts never call it a National Government, nor does the Keesing weekly report), so I dropped the unsourced speculation. See also Pelling biography. Martin Gilbert, Never despair': Winston S. Churchill 1945-1965. Vol. 8 (1990), uses "National Government" only for the wartime government that ended on 23 May 1945--he uses "caretaker government" 16 times, and that is the term used by all the biographers as well as historians like AJP Taylor. Rjensen ( talk) 03:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
Churchill caretaker ministry has been listed as one of the
Social sciences and society good articles under the
good article criteria. If you can improve it further,
please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can
reassess it. Review: September 8, 2020. ( Reviewed version). |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
The contents of the Caretaker Government 1945 page were merged into Churchill caretaker ministry on 22 April 2012. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
A fact from Churchill caretaker ministry appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 24 September 2020 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
-- Gary J 12:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I have looked at The Times of London report on the formation of the government, in its edition of 26 May 1945. This clearly identifies Lloyd George as a member of the Liberal Party. -- Gary J 00:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The page Caretaker Government 1945 has been merged into this page, as the two were redundant. This name follows consistent usage, and was retained. I also adjusted the title per WP:CAPS, added an image and provided some small revisions. RGloucester ( talk) 18:24, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
I did a fair bit of reading about this earlier in the year after this cropped up on the main Winston Churchill biography page. Martin Gilbert, the most detailed account, does not talk of Churchill being asked to form "a caretaker government", indeed the only person who does so is Anthony Eden in his turgid memoirs. Most authoritative accounts refer to it by the proper name "the Caretaker Government". Churchill himself (in the final volume of "History of the Second World War") mentions that the government came to be known as "the Caretakers", i.e. a derogatory nickname which he hints that he found irritating.
"A caretaker" administration is one with reduced powers, often led by an individual who is not being expected to stand for re-election. The concept is legally meaningless in the UK - a government is a government, part of "the Crown" and performing under "binding ministerial advice" functions which were still the King's in 1688. That is why many government functions, e.g. declaring war and deploying troops, are conducted by the Prime Minister under Royal Prerogative and (in law) Parliament is asked merely as a courtesy. The idea that the rise and fall of governments coincides exactly with General Elections is one which evolved throughout the nineteenth century and this is one of those few occasions on which it did not happen in the twentieth century either.
If Churchill had won the 1945 election, which (as every schoolboy knows) almost everybody expected him to do, it would now be a piece of political history trivia that the National Government (a de facto Tory government) of 1945-50 had taken office a few weeks before its triumphant election victory, like Campbell-Bannerman's Liberal Government in December 1905. Instead, because it was so short-lived, the name stuck, like the "Who? Who?" Ministry of 1852. Paulturtle ( talk) 11:32, 6 August 2015 (UTC) And conversely only political history geeks know that Pitt the Younger's ministry, which lasted for 18 years, was initially known as the "Mince Pie" ministry as it was not expected to last past Christmas 1783. Paulturtle ( talk) 00:38, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
Came across a quote which sheds a bit more light on Churchill's view of the nickname, although the book in question makes the error of referring to it as "a caretaker government" a few pages earlier.00:38, 3 April 2016 (UTC) Paulturtle ( talk) This comment is referring to Hermiston, who includes Churchill's speech in Woodford "condoning" the nickname, but a few pages earlier talks of "a" caretaker government, erroneously I think. Paulturtle ( talk) 01:25, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
I refer once again to my comments of a few years ago - although it is common for books to talk sloppily of this government as "a" caretaker administration, the more authoritative ones don't do so. That includes Martin Gilbert and Andrew Roberts, whose recent brick-sized Churchill biog just says that he was asked to form "a Conservative Government". Churchill himself (in his "History Of The Second World War") implies that it was just a nickname which he found irritating. We don't know exactly what was said between Prime Minister and Monarch (contrary to a lot of erroneous reporting, even our esteemed Supreme Court chose to "take no view" on Prime Ministerial advice to the Monarch last September) although Roberts does claim to have consulted the King's private diary in researching his biography. I did have a quick trawl through Hansard Online, both debates and written answers, but it didn't shed any light - but then you wouldn't necessarily expect it to, as governments are not legally appointed by Parliament. I think if one wanted to dig deeper one would have to find a book which looked at press reports, and whether the BBC and major newspapers talked of "a caretaker government", even if their reports weren't strictly accurate. But that would be digging deeper than any Churchill biography goes.
In autumn 2019 there was talk of "a caretaker government" being formed, pending a general election, if Boris Johnson's government had fallen and the Opposition had been able to unite behind another Prime Minister. But that was last year, and we are concerned with the events of May 1945. Paulturtle ( talk) 01:44, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Wasted Time R ( talk · contribs) 12:26, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
I have begun reviewing this article.
Wasted Time R (
talk)
12:26, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
A nicely done article as far as it goes, but needs to go a bit further
Regarding sources, this article leans heavily on the Jenkins biography. That's a well-received work and there is nothing wrong with using it, but as you know there have been a bunch of other treatments of Churchill and it would be good to incorporate some of what they have to say about this period. In particular the Gilbert volume that covers this ministry could be used as a source.
Getting additional perspectives is especially important for the description of Churchill at Potsdam. Do other authors agree with the conclusion that Churchill's performance there was weak? And would it have made any difference in the outcomes with Stalin if his performance had been better? Besides Churchill biographies, a good source to consult might be Michael Neiberg, Potsdam: The End of World War II and the Remaking of Europe (2015), which seems to have a more positive interpretation of Potsdam than the usual historical account.
Even though this ministry only last two months, there was a lot going on during that time, so it would be good to have some sort of historical assessment of the caretaker government. This 2001 article "Churchill and the Conservative Party" by Stuart Ball p 328 says, "The 'caretaker' government of 1945 is sometimes unfairly dismissed, but it was a sound and capable team." But it sounds like there are other views out there.
It would also be good to cover what if any changes were made regarding social/domestic/quality-of-life issues during this time. Civilians were no longer under threat of attack, did the government take advantage of that to relax any restrictions? What about rationing and the like?
Another aspect that can be drawn out more is the change Churchill as prime minister had to undergo switching from a coalition government to a party-oriented one. This 2010 article "Winston Churchill's "Crazy Broadcast": Party, Nation, and the 1945 Gestapo Speech" by Richard Toye explores the disastrous 'Gestapo speech' and analyzes why someone who was so good at finding the right public words during the war could go so off-base here. Part of his conclusion is that Churchill didn't realize the level of political trouble he was in. He was also used to being Prime Minister on a non-partisan pedestal and had trouble dealing with that no longer being true.
Some of those themes are also brought out by this 1980 article "The 1945 General Election Reconsidered" by Henry Pelling. And the Geoffrey Best book Churchill: A Study in Greatness talks about how Churchill didn't want to return to regular politics given that the war with Japan was still going on (chapter 21).
Regarding images for the article, I think the top image should be something that was taken during the caretaker ministry, not before. A good choice would be File:Winston Churchill during the General Election Campaign in 1945 HU55965.jpg from 27 June 1945, which is from the right time and also shows him more in a political pose than statesman pose, which is appropriate for the nature of the caretaker period. Another possibility is File:British Political Personalities 1936-1945 HU59722.jpg but I think the first one is better.
For the section about plans to extend the coalition, a good one to include would be File:Winston Churchill waves to crowds in Whitehall in London as they celebrate VE Day, 8 May 1945. H41849.jpg, because it shows Bevin right next to Churchill and gets across the idea of the need for the coalition coming to a close.
There is also this odd cartoon, File:Caretaker Churchill on the Job (16547321940).jpg, which explicitly refers to him as a caretaker, but I'm not sure what the point of it is (the explanation in the Commons description doesn't make sense to me). Finally, File:Voters arriving at a polling station in the Italian Hospital, Queen Square, Holborn, London to cast their vote in the General Election of 1945. D25102.jpg might be a good image to illustrate the general election section - it's got the feel of the time.
Anyway, the article is very good as far as it goes, I just think it needs to cover a bit more in places. Wasted Time R ( talk) 00:06, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Hello again, WTR. I think I've just about finished now. I've answered each of your points individually above. Would you like to take another look when time allows and see what you think? Thanks again and all the best. No Great Shaker ( talk) 17:00, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
@ No Great Shaker: The article is definitely much better now, definitely more comprehensive, good work. A few further comments here and there on content:
It might be good to add to the lede the thing about the election being on 5 July but votes not counted until 26 July due to so many overseas service personnel. It's interesting, it was relevant then in terms of how Potsdam was handled, and it has some relevance to current times what with elections taking longer to count due to effects of the pandemic.
I think the caption of the V-E day photo should explicitly state that Anderson continued on in the caretaker ministry but Bevin did not. Saying so illustrates the effect of the end of the coalition.
Regarding the discussions about extending the coalition, it's important to add that at the time many people expected the war against Japan to continue well into 1946. Thus Labour proposing an election in October 1945, which to modern readers may look like they wanted an election after the war with Japan was over, was not that. And it should be made clear that once Labor wouldn't agree to extending the coalition to the end of the Japan war, the Conservatives wanted to hold it as soon as possible to capitalize on Churchill's wartime popularity (hence July) whereas Labour wanted to delay it a few months to let that popularity wear off (hence October). Pelling p 401 is a source for all this.
I think the Potsdam section should begin by describing how the status of Eastern Europe, and especially that of Poland, was of great concern to Churchill during the entire time after V-E day – it wasn't just at Potsdam that this came up. Adding material on this will also set up the he was much more interested in what was happening in Eastern Europe than in Great Britain remark that is made later in the article.
I think a broader quote from the Gestapo speech should be provided in the article, to give a more complete idea of what Churchill actually said and how it showed a lack of political feel on his part. The start of the Toye article has this: "No Socialist Government conducting the entire life and industry of the country could afford to allow free, sharp, or violently-worded expressions of public discontent. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance."
I've put it into a quote paragraph. Much better. No Great Shaker ( talk) 03:12, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
A couple of usage things:
What is the significance of the same day that King George VI visited the recently liberated Channel Islands,[21]? I'm not seeing the connection to the rest of the sentence. And that's a run-on sentence in any case, I would suggest breaking it up. For saying in a letter that he (Churchill) had – since this isn't part of the quote, you can simply say saying in a letter that Churchill had.
And a few comments on citing practices:
The three cites to the Patricia Nicol book are missing page numbers.
For the Pelling journal article, which is cited in six different places, you can move it into the Bibliography and then short-form cite it to specific pages (i.e., the same way you do for the Toye journal article).
A couple of the Toye page ranges use a hyphen when they should have an endash.
The article is inconsistent about whether books cited only once are included in the Bibliography and short-form cited (Butler & Buter, Roberts) or are not in the Bibliography but instead are full-cited in place in that one footnote (Mercer, Leonard, Fenby, couple of others). I've seen it done both ways in WP articles, but the second approach is more common.
And I understand about your having no access at present to certain books and thus putting them in Further reading. The good thing about WP is that articles are never finished, so you can always modify the article if you get access to those books down the road. Wasted Time R ( talk) 15:22, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Hello again, Wasted Time R, and thanks for the feedback. Sorry I've been unavailable for the last two days but have caught up now. Could you please take a look at the changes and see if they are okay? All the best. No Great Shaker ( talk) 03:37, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
The result was: promoted by
Cwmhiraeth (
talk)
08:43, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
Improved to Good Article status by No Great Shaker ( talk). Self-nominated at 21:01, 8 September 2020 (UTC).
I've just removed some bizarre material claiming that the Japanese called a ceasefire in May 1945, leading the Allies to land in western Malaya and enter Thailand. Nothing of the sort ever happened - this seems to be confusing what happened after the cease-fire when the Japanese announced their intention to surrender in mid-August 1945. Nick-D ( talk) 10:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
Standard histories like Hermiston's book (it is online here) and biographies of Churchill like Jenkins and Roberts never call it a National Government, nor does the Keesing weekly report), so I dropped the unsourced speculation. See also Pelling biography. Martin Gilbert, Never despair': Winston S. Churchill 1945-1965. Vol. 8 (1990), uses "National Government" only for the wartime government that ended on 23 May 1945--he uses "caretaker government" 16 times, and that is the term used by all the biographers as well as historians like AJP Taylor. Rjensen ( talk) 03:27, 12 July 2024 (UTC)