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This article should also mention that (in the opinion of some) the Church Committee’s activities were a factor that led to the 9/11 attacks. Legislation passed in the 1970's kept the FBI and the CIA from communicating. The Foreign Services Intelligence Act (passed as a result of the Church Committee’s findings) created an additional wall between the CIA and the FBI.
(Moved from article page, but I did not write this & I don't agree with it. Cromis 01:22, 3 August 2005 (UTC))
I applaud User:DJ_Silverfish adding all of the seperate subsections of the book II and III to this page.
PROS:
It makes anyone searching for the church report to find this site on google.
It makes it easy for someone who wants to read a particular section of the report.
CONS:
It seems like overkill and makes the article look crowded. It seems unnecessary to add all the sections here, when a user can simply click on the book 1 and 2 and get all of the section headers.
SUGGESTION: I say possibly delete it, OR Add summaries of each section to make it more relevant for continued inclusion in the article. As mentioned, right now someone can simply click on the:
Anyway, I knew User:DJ_Silverfish spent a lot of time wikifying this section, so I did not want to miff him and simply delete it--what does everyone who is watching this page think? Travb 03:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
The citation after "U.S. Army's spying on the civilian population" is not germane; it's about the Patriot Act and has nothing to do with the subject of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.124.131.161 ( talk • contribs) {{{2}}}.
SIGN YOUR POSTS PLEASE! Travb 21:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
germane: Being both pertinent and fitting. Big word, I just learned a new one today. Travb 21:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
"U.S. Army's spying on the civilian population" Sigh, anon, have you read the Church Committee report? I havent completely, but I may have read more than you. Did you even read the article footnote this sentence was pertaning to, which was a direct quote?
The article is refering to the Church Committee, and comparing the information uncoverd by the Church Committee to the Patriot Act.
Please read the footnote first. Thank you Travb 21:38, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello anon, so far your two links in your edits, has nothing to do with the church committee, and replaces an ABC news article that has a full pragraph about the Chuch committee (italics, above). I figure you are still editing, so I will check back later so there are no edit conflicts. Nice work on typos and "options of US government after the church committee" edits.
Travb
23:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
After reading a portion of your footnoted article, it looks good. Nice job. Travb 07:11, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I really am learning a lot from the article--thanks for the link... Travb 07:16, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Maybe two links is better? Maybe two links is better than one :) Looks like another editor added back this link. Travb 23:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
It is unclear what value the "Rumsfeld and the Church committee" section has. Does it actually say anything at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorenbr ( talk • contribs)
The Church Committee was, without a doubt, terribly destructive to US national security. To this very day the US finds itself incapable of dealing with national security matters in any sensible way. The Church Committee's main result was that, for the first time, a security agent of the US could be imprisoned for having acted in good faith to defend his country. Consequently, we now have CIA & FBI agents who must think about their own personal liability instead of defending the US. This is a shameful legacy and everyone associated with that committee ought to hang their heads in shame. Rumsfeld (arguably America's worst Defense Secretary ever) was one of the very few who publicly opposed the Church witch hunt. Gerald Ford, during this period, showed why he should never have been President. He ought to have told Church where to stick his hearings. The Democrats, in the end, would have been powerless to command testimony by Executive Department employees who were ordered not to cooperate for Constitutional reasons. Congress could then have debated what rules we want our security people to follow. Instead, we got a large dose of fear injected into our security apparatus which still affects them today. But Ford, probably feeling illegitimate anyway, didn't have the stomach to fight off this unconstitutional invasion of the Executive branch by the Congress. Church could not have damaged us more had he been a card carrying agent of the KGB He was, in fact, what the Lenin called a "useful idiot". 63.230.163.241 10:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)Doug W.
The Church Committee investigations have become somewhat controversial, particularly after the September 11th attacks, as investigations are blamed by some for reducing the ability of the CIA to gather human intelligence.
"Early on, critics such as Bing Crosby and Paul Harvey accused the committee of treasonous activity."
Hehe, this is funny, but I think a more serious presentation of this is more appropriate for this topic. There were many less comical examples of serious critics of the Chuch Committee that could have been chosen. The passage makes it sound like only a couple fringe idiots had any reservations about the committee.
This statement:
...bears a striking resemblance to this statement, which was removed from Frank Church after discussion on Talk:Frank Church:
This is a weasel-worded attempt to blame Church for September 11, and violates the Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words guideline. "Some" are largely controversial figures themselves (e.g. Kissinger) who clearly have political axes to grind. Moreover, the claim, as written, doesn't make sense. The beef would be with the laws enacted after the Church Committee hearings, not the investigations themselves. -- RobLa 23:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
http://web.archive.org/web/20010921224410/http://slate.msn.com/pol/01-09-18/pol.asp
The other citation is not a critical examination of the merits of the case, just Sununu's accusation. I do not think the accusations of 3 pols and one secrecy promoting scholar constitute a controversy; they are just accusations. The sentence should be modified accordingly.
One charge, that the Church Committee prevented the recruiting of human rights abusers is ludicrous. Church left the senate in 1980 & died in 85, the CIA guidelines prohibiting (without approval!) the use of agents who work inside foreign governments if they are connected to human rights violations, narcotics trafficking or terrorism, according to administration and congressional sources was from 1995, so not very believable in terms of the Committee hindering HUMINT.
http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/09/bushlet0920.htm
The one piece of legislation enacted, that I am aware of, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, did set up a court that approves surveillance. If you are going to argue that this court allowed 9/11 to happen, shouldn't you have to produce a rejected appeal in order to have a reasonable arguement/controversy? Cronos1 19:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
RE: {{weasel}} tag added. I think that a sentence that has four references is not a weasel sentence. Adding all four authors would make the sentence sound bulky and awkward. 68.91.90.91 22:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
"After years of stonewalling FOIA requests, finally a limited release on May 23, 1997 provides abundant evidence of this. On a page called
The Guatemala 1954 Documents available at the
National Security Archive of George Washington University, we read:
"Although Arbenz and his top aides were able to flee the country, after the CIA installed Castillo Armas in power, hundreds of Guatemalans were rounded up and killed. Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians."
"
This is misleading. The quote is not from an official document but from a non-governmental organization. Nor do the quote accuse the US of being responsible for all these deaths. Finally, democracy in Guatemala by the end of the 1960 was as good as that before 1954, according to Polity data series rankings, so difficult to accuse the coup of things happening in the 70s or 80s. Ultramarine ( talk) 07:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
"The quote is not from an official document but from a non-governmental organization." This is not relevant in whether comment should be edited out. "Nor do the quote accuse the US of being responsible for all these deaths." The CIA installed Armas and between Armas and 1990 'human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians.' This 'makes clear that CIA assassinations, whether by their own hand or by proxies, were very numerous'. "Finally, democracy in Guatemala by the end of the 1960..." Now you are introducing your own OR, if you can find a published source which agrees with the point you are trying to make, that the reprecussions of CIA operations in the 50's terminated as of 1960, then publish as a counter-argument. Restoring. Cronos1 ( talk) 18:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the polity series data as not very useful or relevant to the article. What value does it add? It's just one measure of democracy, a particular quantitative model--and disputed one--out of many others. There is no need to promote this one here, esp. not without critics of it. To do so is in effect having WP give it a stamp of endorsement. That is POV. It adds no value to a discussion. I also removed the telegraph piece that makes a false argument, a straw man fallacy by saying the US can not be blamed for all the deaths, which is very is silly: No one does so. It would be relevant to include only if there is a claim that the US is blamed for all the deaths. Upon further examination it is not actually from a close historical examination of Guatemalan history. It is from an op-ed piece specifically directed at the Nobel prize acceptance speech of Harold Pinter. One of Pinter's comments about Ferguson's article, supported by others, was that "Ferguson distorted the whole bloody thing." This op-ed quote has no place in any scholarly article about any subject matter except perhaps about Ferguson and his issues with Pinter, or vise versa, as that is its polemical context, not an historical study, or scholarly paper in anyway. WP has to have better standards than to include straw man fallacies not repeated by any reliable source. Giovanni33 ( talk) 01:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I see the problem is the same that I've seen with many other article, in which Ultramarine wishes to introduce material because it advances a POV, even if that POV is not within the scope of relevance to what is being discussed in the article. This is done under the pretext of 'NPOV.' However, he often fails to look at the logical context of the arguments being discussed. This is another example. The Guatemala material addresses the specific claim made by Ellsworth about his assertions of the CIA. This is directly relevant to the article. The other material Ultra is introducing is off topic. Arguments about Guatemalan society, or an interpretation of its history is a non-sequitur, i.e. logically relevant and therefor should be confined to a more appropriate article. Thus, I concur with Cronos1 reasoning here here. I also note that this is the same logical errors I've seen employed by Ultramarine within several articles now. Giovanni33 ( talk) 19:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
"Your source have section on this." I am not at all sure what this is supposed to mean? The original is not my edit. Before we go any further, can you admit that the church committe investigated Guatemala? Cronos1 ( talk) 22:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Ultra, just for the sake of understanding, I looked up the Polity report on Guatemala at http://www.systemicpeace.org/polity/Guatemala2006.pdf
The 1st 2 paragraphs read: "Military-backed oligarchic rule and factional political violence have long defined Guatemalan politics. After a brief experiment with economic and social reform in the late 1940s and early 1950s, for the next three decades executive recruitment in this poor Central American country became the sole domain of rival conservative factions within the armed forces. The consolidation of political power by the military during this period triggered a peasant-based insurrection that would ultimately claim over 200,000 lives. The vast majority of these casualties were rural peasants who suffered brutal repression at the hands of the Guatemalan military and pro-government paramilitary units. Amidst widespread public discontent in the aftermath of the fraudulent 1982 presidential elections, a military coup brought to power a new government led by General Rios Montt. The brutal, albeit short-lived, Montt dictatorship exacerbated the civil war in Guatemala and triggered the 1983 coup by reformist military leader General Oscar Humberto Mejia. Spurred on by the reformist military government, a new democratic constitution was promulgated in 1985 as restrictions on press and political party activities were lifted. In 1986 democratic elections were held and Mario Vinicio Cerezo became the country’s first civilian president in over two decades. While the return to civilian rule was a positive development, nevertheless, the military continued to exert significant political powers and the civil war remained a constant threat to the political and economic stability of the country."
Not sure that I find this inconsistant with the human rights views expressed in the Church article. Cronos1 ( talk) 00:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
"Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians." is the principal statement I oppose. OR to argue that the Guatemalan army was CIA proxies. Just absurd to mention what happened after 1977." Why don't you sart by telling us 1) What you think OR is & 2)Why you think the statement "repressive operatives of successive military regimes" means "the Guatemalan army was CIA proxies". Cronos1 ( talk) 02:18, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
The difference between this and investigative journalism that the former is OR. This is, however, sourced, and it is directly relevant to the material being discussed. At this point I think we don't have consensus yet--one way or the other. Perhaps the solution is to open it up for others to comment via a Rfc? Its much better than edit warring. Giovanni33 ( talk) 23:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes...""Although Arbenz and his top aides were able to flee the country, after the CIA installed Castillo Armas in power, hundreds of Guatemalans were rounded up and killed. Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians." Cronos1 ( talk) 21:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually Ultra, you are the only one saying 'the Guatemalan army is CIA proxies doing assassinations'. You said it a number of times, but no matter how many times you say it, it doesn't mean that it's my opinion or, to the point of whether it meets Wiki standards, an opinion that can reasonably be said to reflect the statement in the material quoted. The quote is pretty straight forward, no need to add the spin you are giving it. Cronos1 ( talk) 21:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Define "reliable source". Cronos1 ( talk) 01:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
It says: " A precursor to the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, the committee investigated intelligence gathering for illegality by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), National Security Agency (NSA) and Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) after certain activities had been revealed by the Watergate affair."
Which committee? It is unclear whether the subject is the Church Committee, or the Senate Select Committee. Also, the lead seems incomplete, see:
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead section)
--
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There is surprisingly little on text and links to find in the article concerning key aspects of the relevations: no link to Cointelpro, a one-liner mentioning on influence operations abroad and at home, no mentioning of drugging US citizens uner MKULTRA. This makes it seem as if the Church Committee solely uncovered opening of mail and surveillance of US citizens. 212.203.51.95 ( talk) 17:00, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 17:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
This article should also mention that (in the opinion of some) the Church Committee’s activities were a factor that led to the 9/11 attacks. Legislation passed in the 1970's kept the FBI and the CIA from communicating. The Foreign Services Intelligence Act (passed as a result of the Church Committee’s findings) created an additional wall between the CIA and the FBI.
(Moved from article page, but I did not write this & I don't agree with it. Cromis 01:22, 3 August 2005 (UTC))
I applaud User:DJ_Silverfish adding all of the seperate subsections of the book II and III to this page.
PROS:
It makes anyone searching for the church report to find this site on google.
It makes it easy for someone who wants to read a particular section of the report.
CONS:
It seems like overkill and makes the article look crowded. It seems unnecessary to add all the sections here, when a user can simply click on the book 1 and 2 and get all of the section headers.
SUGGESTION: I say possibly delete it, OR Add summaries of each section to make it more relevant for continued inclusion in the article. As mentioned, right now someone can simply click on the:
Anyway, I knew User:DJ_Silverfish spent a lot of time wikifying this section, so I did not want to miff him and simply delete it--what does everyone who is watching this page think? Travb 03:53, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
The citation after "U.S. Army's spying on the civilian population" is not germane; it's about the Patriot Act and has nothing to do with the subject of the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.124.131.161 ( talk • contribs) {{{2}}}.
SIGN YOUR POSTS PLEASE! Travb 21:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
germane: Being both pertinent and fitting. Big word, I just learned a new one today. Travb 21:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
"U.S. Army's spying on the civilian population" Sigh, anon, have you read the Church Committee report? I havent completely, but I may have read more than you. Did you even read the article footnote this sentence was pertaning to, which was a direct quote?
The article is refering to the Church Committee, and comparing the information uncoverd by the Church Committee to the Patriot Act.
Please read the footnote first. Thank you Travb 21:38, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello anon, so far your two links in your edits, has nothing to do with the church committee, and replaces an ABC news article that has a full pragraph about the Chuch committee (italics, above). I figure you are still editing, so I will check back later so there are no edit conflicts. Nice work on typos and "options of US government after the church committee" edits.
Travb
23:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
After reading a portion of your footnoted article, it looks good. Nice job. Travb 07:11, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I really am learning a lot from the article--thanks for the link... Travb 07:16, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Maybe two links is better? Maybe two links is better than one :) Looks like another editor added back this link. Travb 23:43, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
It is unclear what value the "Rumsfeld and the Church committee" section has. Does it actually say anything at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorenbr ( talk • contribs)
The Church Committee was, without a doubt, terribly destructive to US national security. To this very day the US finds itself incapable of dealing with national security matters in any sensible way. The Church Committee's main result was that, for the first time, a security agent of the US could be imprisoned for having acted in good faith to defend his country. Consequently, we now have CIA & FBI agents who must think about their own personal liability instead of defending the US. This is a shameful legacy and everyone associated with that committee ought to hang their heads in shame. Rumsfeld (arguably America's worst Defense Secretary ever) was one of the very few who publicly opposed the Church witch hunt. Gerald Ford, during this period, showed why he should never have been President. He ought to have told Church where to stick his hearings. The Democrats, in the end, would have been powerless to command testimony by Executive Department employees who were ordered not to cooperate for Constitutional reasons. Congress could then have debated what rules we want our security people to follow. Instead, we got a large dose of fear injected into our security apparatus which still affects them today. But Ford, probably feeling illegitimate anyway, didn't have the stomach to fight off this unconstitutional invasion of the Executive branch by the Congress. Church could not have damaged us more had he been a card carrying agent of the KGB He was, in fact, what the Lenin called a "useful idiot". 63.230.163.241 10:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)Doug W.
The Church Committee investigations have become somewhat controversial, particularly after the September 11th attacks, as investigations are blamed by some for reducing the ability of the CIA to gather human intelligence.
"Early on, critics such as Bing Crosby and Paul Harvey accused the committee of treasonous activity."
Hehe, this is funny, but I think a more serious presentation of this is more appropriate for this topic. There were many less comical examples of serious critics of the Chuch Committee that could have been chosen. The passage makes it sound like only a couple fringe idiots had any reservations about the committee.
This statement:
...bears a striking resemblance to this statement, which was removed from Frank Church after discussion on Talk:Frank Church:
This is a weasel-worded attempt to blame Church for September 11, and violates the Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words guideline. "Some" are largely controversial figures themselves (e.g. Kissinger) who clearly have political axes to grind. Moreover, the claim, as written, doesn't make sense. The beef would be with the laws enacted after the Church Committee hearings, not the investigations themselves. -- RobLa 23:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
http://web.archive.org/web/20010921224410/http://slate.msn.com/pol/01-09-18/pol.asp
The other citation is not a critical examination of the merits of the case, just Sununu's accusation. I do not think the accusations of 3 pols and one secrecy promoting scholar constitute a controversy; they are just accusations. The sentence should be modified accordingly.
One charge, that the Church Committee prevented the recruiting of human rights abusers is ludicrous. Church left the senate in 1980 & died in 85, the CIA guidelines prohibiting (without approval!) the use of agents who work inside foreign governments if they are connected to human rights violations, narcotics trafficking or terrorism, according to administration and congressional sources was from 1995, so not very believable in terms of the Committee hindering HUMINT.
http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/09/bushlet0920.htm
The one piece of legislation enacted, that I am aware of, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, did set up a court that approves surveillance. If you are going to argue that this court allowed 9/11 to happen, shouldn't you have to produce a rejected appeal in order to have a reasonable arguement/controversy? Cronos1 19:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
RE: {{weasel}} tag added. I think that a sentence that has four references is not a weasel sentence. Adding all four authors would make the sentence sound bulky and awkward. 68.91.90.91 22:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
"After years of stonewalling FOIA requests, finally a limited release on May 23, 1997 provides abundant evidence of this. On a page called
The Guatemala 1954 Documents available at the
National Security Archive of George Washington University, we read:
"Although Arbenz and his top aides were able to flee the country, after the CIA installed Castillo Armas in power, hundreds of Guatemalans were rounded up and killed. Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians."
"
This is misleading. The quote is not from an official document but from a non-governmental organization. Nor do the quote accuse the US of being responsible for all these deaths. Finally, democracy in Guatemala by the end of the 1960 was as good as that before 1954, according to Polity data series rankings, so difficult to accuse the coup of things happening in the 70s or 80s. Ultramarine ( talk) 07:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
"The quote is not from an official document but from a non-governmental organization." This is not relevant in whether comment should be edited out. "Nor do the quote accuse the US of being responsible for all these deaths." The CIA installed Armas and between Armas and 1990 'human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians.' This 'makes clear that CIA assassinations, whether by their own hand or by proxies, were very numerous'. "Finally, democracy in Guatemala by the end of the 1960..." Now you are introducing your own OR, if you can find a published source which agrees with the point you are trying to make, that the reprecussions of CIA operations in the 50's terminated as of 1960, then publish as a counter-argument. Restoring. Cronos1 ( talk) 18:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the polity series data as not very useful or relevant to the article. What value does it add? It's just one measure of democracy, a particular quantitative model--and disputed one--out of many others. There is no need to promote this one here, esp. not without critics of it. To do so is in effect having WP give it a stamp of endorsement. That is POV. It adds no value to a discussion. I also removed the telegraph piece that makes a false argument, a straw man fallacy by saying the US can not be blamed for all the deaths, which is very is silly: No one does so. It would be relevant to include only if there is a claim that the US is blamed for all the deaths. Upon further examination it is not actually from a close historical examination of Guatemalan history. It is from an op-ed piece specifically directed at the Nobel prize acceptance speech of Harold Pinter. One of Pinter's comments about Ferguson's article, supported by others, was that "Ferguson distorted the whole bloody thing." This op-ed quote has no place in any scholarly article about any subject matter except perhaps about Ferguson and his issues with Pinter, or vise versa, as that is its polemical context, not an historical study, or scholarly paper in anyway. WP has to have better standards than to include straw man fallacies not repeated by any reliable source. Giovanni33 ( talk) 01:55, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I see the problem is the same that I've seen with many other article, in which Ultramarine wishes to introduce material because it advances a POV, even if that POV is not within the scope of relevance to what is being discussed in the article. This is done under the pretext of 'NPOV.' However, he often fails to look at the logical context of the arguments being discussed. This is another example. The Guatemala material addresses the specific claim made by Ellsworth about his assertions of the CIA. This is directly relevant to the article. The other material Ultra is introducing is off topic. Arguments about Guatemalan society, or an interpretation of its history is a non-sequitur, i.e. logically relevant and therefor should be confined to a more appropriate article. Thus, I concur with Cronos1 reasoning here here. I also note that this is the same logical errors I've seen employed by Ultramarine within several articles now. Giovanni33 ( talk) 19:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
"Your source have section on this." I am not at all sure what this is supposed to mean? The original is not my edit. Before we go any further, can you admit that the church committe investigated Guatemala? Cronos1 ( talk) 22:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Ultra, just for the sake of understanding, I looked up the Polity report on Guatemala at http://www.systemicpeace.org/polity/Guatemala2006.pdf
The 1st 2 paragraphs read: "Military-backed oligarchic rule and factional political violence have long defined Guatemalan politics. After a brief experiment with economic and social reform in the late 1940s and early 1950s, for the next three decades executive recruitment in this poor Central American country became the sole domain of rival conservative factions within the armed forces. The consolidation of political power by the military during this period triggered a peasant-based insurrection that would ultimately claim over 200,000 lives. The vast majority of these casualties were rural peasants who suffered brutal repression at the hands of the Guatemalan military and pro-government paramilitary units. Amidst widespread public discontent in the aftermath of the fraudulent 1982 presidential elections, a military coup brought to power a new government led by General Rios Montt. The brutal, albeit short-lived, Montt dictatorship exacerbated the civil war in Guatemala and triggered the 1983 coup by reformist military leader General Oscar Humberto Mejia. Spurred on by the reformist military government, a new democratic constitution was promulgated in 1985 as restrictions on press and political party activities were lifted. In 1986 democratic elections were held and Mario Vinicio Cerezo became the country’s first civilian president in over two decades. While the return to civilian rule was a positive development, nevertheless, the military continued to exert significant political powers and the civil war remained a constant threat to the political and economic stability of the country."
Not sure that I find this inconsistant with the human rights views expressed in the Church article. Cronos1 ( talk) 00:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
"Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians." is the principal statement I oppose. OR to argue that the Guatemalan army was CIA proxies. Just absurd to mention what happened after 1977." Why don't you sart by telling us 1) What you think OR is & 2)Why you think the statement "repressive operatives of successive military regimes" means "the Guatemalan army was CIA proxies". Cronos1 ( talk) 02:18, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
The difference between this and investigative journalism that the former is OR. This is, however, sourced, and it is directly relevant to the material being discussed. At this point I think we don't have consensus yet--one way or the other. Perhaps the solution is to open it up for others to comment via a Rfc? Its much better than edit warring. Giovanni33 ( talk) 23:16, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes...""Although Arbenz and his top aides were able to flee the country, after the CIA installed Castillo Armas in power, hundreds of Guatemalans were rounded up and killed. Between 1954 and 1990, human rights groups estimate, the repressive operatives of successive military regimes murdered more than 100,000 civilians." Cronos1 ( talk) 21:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually Ultra, you are the only one saying 'the Guatemalan army is CIA proxies doing assassinations'. You said it a number of times, but no matter how many times you say it, it doesn't mean that it's my opinion or, to the point of whether it meets Wiki standards, an opinion that can reasonably be said to reflect the statement in the material quoted. The quote is pretty straight forward, no need to add the spin you are giving it. Cronos1 ( talk) 21:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Define "reliable source". Cronos1 ( talk) 01:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
It says: " A precursor to the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, the committee investigated intelligence gathering for illegality by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), National Security Agency (NSA) and Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) after certain activities had been revealed by the Watergate affair."
Which committee? It is unclear whether the subject is the Church Committee, or the Senate Select Committee. Also, the lead seems incomplete, see:
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead section)
--
68.127.92.76 (
talk)
22:57, 5 July 2013 (UTC)Doug Bashford
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There is surprisingly little on text and links to find in the article concerning key aspects of the relevations: no link to Cointelpro, a one-liner mentioning on influence operations abroad and at home, no mentioning of drugging US citizens uner MKULTRA. This makes it seem as if the Church Committee solely uncovered opening of mail and surveillance of US citizens. 212.203.51.95 ( talk) 17:00, 2 January 2020 (UTC)