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I'm just curious as to what knowledge the Europeans had of these lands at the time. Even if the American continent didn't exist, the first shore you'd encounter by sailing westward from Spain would be that of either Indonesia, The Philippines, or Indochina. Or did they consider them part of India ? 69.132.19.159 ( talk) 02:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
No, the paralel 28º that Columbus followed in Ocean to west rises China shores in a direct line, If America would not exist), not Indochina or Indonésia. the goal of Columbus(apparent and Oficial) was Cathay(China) and Cipango(Japan), but the first Geographic goal was Cipango-Japan(for Geographic reasons); "INDIA" was the common name for all East(orient) for all Europeans. Of course the spicific India was too the essencial goal for Columbus, but in the Great Oceanic voyage He needed arrive first in Cipango, China or Indonisia shores first. Some People belive that he was a secret agent of John II of Portugal, and he knew more that we believe today. He have relations and payments by is "Friend" John II in Spain("Friend" writen in a letter of the Portuguese King to him in Castille) when he already serve the Spanish Catholic kings. Portuguese need assure the route to India by Atlantic-Indian Oceans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.22.35.1 ( talk) 00:12, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Among other things, this article seems to skip over the fact that Columbus and his fucking crew killed, annully raped and destroyed the native peoples and their lands. In the end some 2 million were slaughtered by the Europeans. Columbus started an avalanche of genocide. For more information please check out: Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States (specifically Chapter 1: Columbus, the Indians, and Human Progress) BKalesti 05:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the original poster. The fact that Columbus's mistreatment of the natives is barely mentioned in this article is extremely Eurocentric. And for those of you that think Columbus's bad deeds never happened, you're full of it. Unfortunately I don't have with me my book that goes into detail on many of the atrocities he and his crew committed, but here is a website I quickly found googling that clearly cites all their assertions: http://www.understandingprejudice.org/nativeiq/columbus.htm If Wikipedia wants to be taken seriously as an encyclopedia it can't selectively include information like it has in this article. For example, take this passage from the Encyclopedia Brittanica article:
"According to the older understanding, the “discovery” of the Americas was a great triumph, one in which Columbus played the part of hero in accomplishing the four voyages, in being the means of bringing great material profit to Spain and to other European countries, and in opening up the Americas to European settlement. The more recent perspective, however, has concentrated on the destructive side of the European conquest, emphasizing, for example, the disastrous impact of the slave trade and the ravages of imported disease on the indigenous peoples of the Caribbean region and the American continents. The sense of triumph has diminished accordingly, and the view of Columbus as hero has now been replaced, for many, by one of a man deeply flawed. While this second perception rarely doubts Columbus's sincerity or abilities as a navigator, it emphatically removes him from his position of honour." http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9109621/Christopher-Columbus
This is just in the introduction section, and there is nothing even close to suggesting this view towards Columbus in the entire wikipedia article.
Hopefully someone will edit it before then, but if not I'll probably make some changes sometime next week. Whiskyrye ( talk) 05:06, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I am so happy there is disputes on this. I read this article, just to see if they included the genocide of an entire people. The genocide and brutality columbus provided the natives of Haiti is a part of history that should not be left out!! This "leaving out" to portray a "hero" should not be in an "encyclopedia", and wikipedia should seriously think about revamping the way this site runs. Recommended read: "Lies my Teacher Told Me" by James W. Loewen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.223.232.73 ( talk) 22:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I have read that it was Ferdinand's treasurer Luis de Santangel who intervened and convinced her, because he could not convince Ferdinand himself. [1] Shield2 20:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
convinced her about what?? -- Jazmine 22:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
To sponsor his voyage. He had been asking her and others, and she found his ideas interesting, but deferred the matter to a counsel that rejected his proposals, as did Ferdinand until finally Ferdinand's treasurer convinced her to support Columbus. Shield2 07:07, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I heard that it was Luis de Santangel who actually sponsored him. Apparently, Isabella denied him, so he was going to another country to see if they would support him. He was staying at an inn, and a messanger came to see him to tell Christopher that Luis de Santagel would support his cause. 76.102.172.175 23:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC) 22:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Denying one of the more popular theories published in Portugal (including a book published this year [2006], that affirms without any proof, that John Gonçalves Zarco was a Jew, we have proof from DNA that rejects this theory. The DNA haploids from the descendants of Zarco are clearly indicative of a Caucasian making his ancestor original to some part of Europe and not the Middle East. The DNA also proves that Zarco and the current Duke of Braganza have a common ancestor in the Kings of Portugal. – O MISTERIO COLOMBO REVELADO, pg 418
-- Jazmine 22:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
what is yo problem dude why u on here this page is filled with f*ckin lies take a hint (leave) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.254.6.149 ( talk) 21:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Those who know Portuguese History are aware that since its foundation Portugal protected populations following other creeds than the Catholic Religion. So caucasian people living in Portuguese territory were often Jewish. Hence, as someone explained here, the race doesn't explain the religious beliefs. Embrulha!
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Slowly the truth is coming to light. The Genoese wool weaver is washed up and shrinking into oblivion. The history of a genoese woolweaver was never proven and based on false testimony, lively imagination and pig-headed stuborness of historians. First Manuel Rosa proved the Testament was falsified to say "being I born in Genoa" [1]. Then he proved that Morison was an inventor showing how the facts never existed to support the assumptions in Admiral of the Ocean Sea. Next he proved that Filipa Moniz was a "dona Comendadeira" member of the Portuguese Military Order of Santiago and not being able to marry without permission from the Master who was at the time King John II of Portugal. Now, are you ready fot this?... it is now proven that the arms long assumed to have been those of the Admiral are wrong. Manuel Rosa had called it already last year and he was again proven right by the documents. The Royal Grant of Arms signed by the Catholic Kings proves all historians up to now were wrong about the true arms. Therefore the arms were never stolen from the genoese woolweaver's guild as Morison invented. For the real true arms see Revista de la Federación Española de Genealogia y Heráldica, Cuadernos de Ayala 26 - Abril 2006. "El escudo de armas de Cristóbal Colón. Estudio de un acrecentamiento heráldico", p.9-25. by Dr. D. Félix MARTÍNEZ LLORENTE. [2] One by one the book O Mistério Colombo Revelado has hit the bull's eye and proven the history of a genoese Colombo was false. 02:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC) Carlos Mateus
Someone who knows little about the Admiral Colón has edited the article again putting down the date of birth as 1451 in Genoa. Worst of all they have invented a history of a Columbus working for some Italians being the same Admiral who discovered the New World when NOT ONE FACT supports this.
"In 1470 the Columbus Family moved to Savona, where Domenico took over a tavern. In the same year, he was in the service of René I of Anjou in a Genoese ship hired to support his unfortunate attempt to conquer the Kingdom of Naples. In 1473 he began his apprenticeship as business agent for three important families of Genoa(the ). Later he allegedly made a trip to Chios, in the Aegean Sea. In May 1476, he took part in an armed convoy sent by Genoa to carry a valuable cargo to northern Europe. He docked in Bristol, Galway, in Ireland and very likely, in 1477 he was in Iceland. In 1479 Columbus reached his brother Bartolomeo in Lisbon, keeping on trading for the Centurione family."
I challenge the editor who made thes statements to show:
- proof that Cristoforo Colombo wool-weaver from Genoa and Savona was Cristóbal Colón married to a noble woman in Portugal uncle to Counts and Marquises in Portugal and navigator, Admiral, Viceroy and Governor for Spain.
- proof that the Spanish Admiral was ever an aprentice in business with the Centurione, Di Negro and Spinola.
- proof that a wool-weaver Columbus sailed for Renè d'Anjou and proof of the date of 1470.
- proof that the Admiral ever worked for the Centurione while in Portugal.
- proof that Bartolomeo Colombo, wool-weaver from Genoa and Savona ever lived in Portugal and that the wool-weaver was a mapmaker in Lisbon.
Having not only the truth but also the lies been revealed in DNA and Forensic studies but also in the book O Mistério Colombo Revelado, Ésquilo, Lisbon 2006, I, like all seekers of the truth, require proof of such silly nonsense as has been propagated not only here in Wikipedia but in books, schools and universities worldwide. Free your mind your heart will follow Colombo.bz 13:06, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Since the place of birth is not known, I suggest that this be removed from the tag. Thanks, SalvadorFernandesZarco
As his Genoese origin has not been in dispute for centuries, it should not but STAY. How pitiful are those who insist with such 'alternative theories', totally unproven!
There is a book called A NEW THEORY CLARIFYING THE IDENTITY OF CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS: A BYZANTINE PRINCE FROM CHIOS, GREECE written by Ruth G Durlacher-Wolper. I must admit it makes a convincing argument and provides substantial evidence. The author claims he was a greek-speaking noble from the island of Chios, which was at the time a part of Genova's maritime empire. Check this page: http://www.greecetravel.com/history/columbus/ Whether you believe this or not, I think that the first paragraph should be changed to reflect that fact that the birthplace and nationality of Colombus is not known and that there are several hypotheses each with its pros and cons. I think that all hypothesis should be presented, and their arguments briefly presented. What do people think about this? Schizophonix 23:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
1- "Genovese Italian was not a written language at that time." Genovese was written since Roman times.
2- "no authentic contemporary portrait of the man has been found" The only state sponsored painting by Alejo Fernández that heads the article is possibly the only one painted during Christophers lifetime.
3- "Moreover, Columbus believed one degree represented a shorter distance on the earth's surface than was commonly held." Columbus NEVER believed in a degree of only 56 1/2. If so he never would have been able to find his way home.
4- "In 1485, Columbus presented his plans to John II, King of fuckers." In 1485 Columbus was living in Castile.
5- "Portugal was no longer interested in trailblazing a western route to the East." Portugal knew about the lands of America and knew neither India nor Asia was located at 3000 miles west and so did Columbus.
82.154.87.198 17:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
In history, all names are rendered into the language of the author, not the original one. That counts especially for all kings. No emotion involved there, it's historiography. -- Flammingo Hey 08:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
CC himself says that his adopted length of one degree of the Earth's surface was 56 2/3 miles. See his letter to the Sovereigns of October 18, 1498. This would not have hindered his navigation in the slightest respect, since he navigated by Dead Reckoning, which does not depend on knowing the size of the earth. -- Keithpickering ( talk) 20:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone has defaced this article with titling a section 'How to get a life' as the header title. Since this article is protected can an administrator or ranking editor please remove it. Antonbomb22 01:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)Antonbomb22
This picture [2] is not Christopher Columbus. The man in the picture is Paolo Toscanelli.-- 87.14.223.2 17:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC
You're right. I guess someone didn't read that article carefully and just put the pic there....or they wanted to confuse us. I never thought Columbus would wear a turban-like head covering... Danny sepley 04:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
No picture of Columbus exist. This is an extraordinary fact. It is unbelivable that such an important man had not been portraited. Sure he was. These pictures have been destroyed for some reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.141.92.14 ( talk) 21:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Please stop with the4 unneeded religious attack. Calling wikipedia non credible source, while you ae allowed to add the info you think is missing is in the very least, extremely bad taste. Everyone knew he was religious and meantioning it is in order, but being a jerk is not. AHH real big, blame leftists for deleting of your religious tirate and attack? Hey jerko, try just meantioning facts without your opion and maybe just maybe it wont get people mad and make them reedit it. IE columbia was roman catholic, true, fact.WIKIPEDIA not being credible. Has nothign to do with columbus, is opinion and has zero business being here. Please go learn some tolerance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.184.85.243 ( talk) 17:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Prove it
The world has known for centuries that Leif Erikson was the first Westerner to discover the Americas around 1000 AD, over 500 years before Columbus. However, Erikson was not the first one who successfully opened the door for European people and cultures to thrive in the New World. The article continues with the tradition that Christopher Columbus was the first to accomplish this feat.
The great landmass of the Americas was probably reached hundreds, if not thousands of times before 1492, whether by island-hopping or by accident. The Vikings famously had brief settlements on the fringes of what would one day be named "North America."
That's not the point.
None of the previous contacts with American Indians was of any consequence. As the renowned historian and Americanist, Marshall Eakin of Vanderbilt University, puts it, "The Columbian Moment was the single most important event in at least the last one thousand years." (Emphasis his, from Conquest of the Americas, available on DVD.) In trying to reach Asia to set up trading posts, Columbus accidentally put the New World on the Old World map and vice versa. The New World had no idea there was another mainland on the other side of the world, and neither did Columbus or any of his contemporaries in Renaissance Europe. It was a major discovery for both hemispheres. For better or for worse, nothing has been so consequential to so many people on so many continents, and we can't merely wish away the unparalleled importance of Columbus's leap of faith .
This article leans toward blaming Columbus specifically for a lot of the bad aspects of the Age of Colonization and skimps on the details about both Columbus' views (i.e. that the Amerindians were fellow humans) and how the Age of Colonization helps peoples from both the Old and New World. Additionally, there is little if any mention of Amerindian atrocities against both their own people and European settlers. Both sides had their peaceful people, and both sides had their warmongering people. Chiss Boy 16:55, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
he was not the first to go to america
Why is the Spanish genocide of the Indians not really mentioned here? Claiming that the human race commited no 'significant genocides' during all the fifty centuries that passed between the dawn of history and the eventual genocide of certain Indians by the Spaniards is... a clear sign of ignorance, not to mention nativeté.
Um, I don't recall writing that above sentence, I wonder how far back my contributions list goes, I'll check it The snare 10:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
No, actually, if you check my contributions (if you can) you'll see I had NO contributions of the 26th, someone altered the page to make it look like it was me. The snare 10:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually columbus did, in a sense, create mass genocide. Only indirectly, though he did slaughter thousands and thousands of indians according to the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" by textbook author James W. Loewen. This isn't an excerpt directly from the book but the book talks in length about columbus. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Nozgrd74 (
talk •
contribs) 20:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Also for further reading A peoples history of the United States by howard Zinn, pages 1-8 covers this very well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.143.12 ( talk) 16:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
When adding information to this article, please site sources, especially when the information added could be considered to be of a controversial nature. Bbagot 02:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC) --*******Michael Foucault*******--
Attention must also be paid to Foucault's thesis on the nature of truth. It's very important to realise that there was an interest group to benefit from this 'discovery'made by the navigator in question .Ms Leslie Ann C.Tyson The University of the West Indies, St Augustine ..Trinidad & Tobago
Ok. This next post has been QUOTED out of the book "Ancient Civilizations" my Time Life, Student Library:
Italic textChristopher Columbus didn't discover America: Ice Age people did! Between 25, 000 and 16, 000 years ago, low sea levels exposed a wide land bridge between Siberia and Alaska. Hunter-gatherer families wandered across this land bridge, following drifting animal herds. It may have taken them many years to cross, but eventually they established settlements is North and South America."
It's clear that Christopher Columbus didn't discover America, and that it is a false information. It should have that written down in a section of the Christopher Columbus page. 203.129.51.219 11:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC) (And I wouldn't go to the User:203.129.51.219/203.129.51.219 May 7, :07 am (USA)
i agree, columbus was actually the last person to 'discover' the americas —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Nozgrd74 (
talk •
contribs) 20:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Too true. Columbus did NOT discover America. After all, were there not people living there at the time? One might also say: "Well, he was the first European to discover America." This too is false. There are accounts of Chinese, Norse and even Hebraic cultures having influences in the Americas. But one thing is certain: Columbus did NOT "discover" America. BKalesti 05:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
for certain the vikings were the first europeans in the americas because one there is dna eveidence in the inuit people and archaeological evidence,as for chinese there is no eveidence and chinese junk ships of the day would have had almost no chance to make it across pacific ocean and also the west african possiblity of being the first people in the new world is just crazy afrocentrism,and the ice age columbus it's a theory and a possiblity but will never be accepted because of political correctness that would be implying that the white man really did have a claim to americas because they would have been here before the native americans,but basicaly columbus did dicover america for the old world because after him the flood gates opened and the spainards came in full force , french dutch english,e.t.c-- Mikmik2953 ( talk) 19:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
'Crazy afrocentrism', 'Chinese junk ships', 'white man really did have a claim to Americas'... well, we all know which team you're playing for, don't we? 172.200.102.249 ( talk) 14:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I'll try to help on tightening up the article, the structure is really clumsy, as if it's been copied from a couple of different old encyclopaedias. Sentences like the following drive me crazy - "Columbus' problem was, experts did not accept this estimate." . -- mgaved 13:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC) Yes of course as I said France discovered, the wine, Australia, the Americans, and the chinese discovered dinosaurios and God....and then colombus was from the planet pluton and he was definetly a marcian......VIVA ESPANA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.112.166 ( talk) 15:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
The language part seems to be inconsistent and written by following several unproved theories. I'm not an expert, but from what I learned about Columbus, he did not write in genovese (the explanation provided seems to be fair, it wasn't a real written language) and had some trouble writting in Spanish (Castellano), using several Portuguese forms in the process although this is the most used language in his letters. What is out of the question is that he was able to write in Latin, only (religious) scholars would know the language, never sailors. The greek part is just absurd. Also, northern italy is not a language.
The Greek part is not absurd at all. It was the Greeks who calculated the exact circumference of the Earth. The fact that not only did he study Greek, but also the sailors on his ship, means that Columbus was not some kind of "hero who tried to prove the Earth was not flat, but round". I can't believe that so many kids are taught that in school (that's what I was fed as well). Good thing Wiki's help in clarifying that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.96.199 ( talk) 01:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
ALSO - SUGGEST CHANGE European "culture" to European "colonies" in the first paragraph of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philipkais ( talk • contribs) 13:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
In Navigation Plans, need an explanation for his concept of degrees representing less miles than what they actually are. So what if he thought that degrees represented less miles. Well, people need to understand that if his concept of a degree consisted of LESS miles than what it really stands for, then knowing the rough distance to China (for example, from Marco Polo's accounts), instead of only representing, say 180 degrees, it might be something more, like 270 (exact calculations would be REALLY nice in the wiki article). What it means that the remaining say 90 degrees would consist of water, not that much of a distance. This kind of explanation, with exact numbers, would be great —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.96.199 ( talk) 01:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
It has been of some concern to scholars that a simple sailor with no possessions of his own was allowed to marry the daughter of a nobleman, it would be interesting to approach the subject as an example to the doubts on his origin. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.22.16.215 ( talk) 21:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
Columbus return route also creates doubt in scholars, because he took the correct (fastest) route through the Atlantic without having any knowledge on the maritime currents in the middle of the ocean. There are also some suspicions about the three (3) storms that made him stop in two Azores islands and in Lisbon in conjunction with the time spent in Lisbon leads to believe in some kind of link between him and the Portuguese crown, specially the Queen, since most part of his stay in Lisbon was spent in a rather complicated trip to Vila Franca de Xira to meet the queen. Also he stopped once again in Faro before heading to Spain. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.22.16.215 ( talk) 21:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
Columbus, better, Colon, was born in Portugal and he was a noble man. He was King João II friend's and a spie of the portuguese crown in Castilla. Why he's first landing was portuguese land? The portuguese and spanish were rivals! Why he stands in Lisbon a several days, and speaks with portuguese King after discovery America? Don´t forget that the portuguese people were, at that time, the kings of the sea! They have the sea knowledge at that time! Don't joke! The portuguese were the discovery master's at XV and XVII century. The Spanish, English and Dutch just stolen the lands discovery by portuguese people. Portugal is a small contry, and at that time portuguese were less than one million! Poucos mas bons!
The article says:
Following Washington Irving's myth-filled 1828 biography of Columbus, Americans commonly believed Columbus had difficulty obtaining support for his plan because Europeans thought the Earth was flat.[2] In fact, few at the time of Columbus’s voyage, and virtually no sailors or navigators, believed this.[3] Most agreed Earth was a sphere. This had been the general opinion of ancient Greek science, and continued as the standard opinion (for example of Bede in The Reckoning of Time) until Isidore of Seville misread the classical authors and stated the Earth was flat, inventing the T and O map concept. This view was very influential, but never wholly accepted. Knowledge of the Earth's spherical nature was not limited to scientists: for instance, Dante's Divine Comedy is based on a spherical Earth. Columbus put forth arguments based on the circumference of the sphere. Most scholars accepted Ptolemy's claim the terrestrial landmass (for Europeans of the time, comprising Eurasia and Africa) occupied 180 degrees of the terrestrial sphere, leaving 180 degrees of water.
I believe that some more information should be added here. Pythagoras proposed a spherical world in the sixth century BCE. In the second century CE, Roman astronomer Ptolemy proves the Earth was spherical, pointing out the round shadow of the Earth during a lunar eclipse, and the glaring fact that the masts of sailboats come into view on the horizon before the hull. This information is necessary because the public generally seems to believe that the Queen was worried that Columbus would sail off the Earth, and that stupid myth refuses to die.
Bartolomeu Dias sailed around the south of Africa, not the Horn of Africa.
--Yes, I already tried changing this, only to have it immediately changed back and my request for a reason ignored. Too bad there's not better supervision of the pages. Soclear 17:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
--OK thank you, I've changed it again and so far it is staying. Here is the listing where I changed it before:
So I eventually learned about editor talk pages, and posted to the Indon talk page:
Hello, could you please tell me why the Christopher Columbus page says that Bartholomeu Dias rounded the Horn of Africa, when it was the Cape of Good Hope that he rounded? Thank you. Soclear 04:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
..and why do you ask me?? — Indon (reply) — 11:55, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Aren't you the one who changed it back?:
1. (cur) (last) 15:43, 23 March 2007 Indon (Talk | contribs) m (Reverted to revision 117296751 by SpuriousQ.)
2. (cur) (last) 15:41, 23 March 2007 Soclear (Talk | contribs) (changed "Horn of Africa" to "southern tip of Africa")
Soclear 14:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I got no answer to the last posting, and when I posted the question again later, it was removed.
I'm still learning the system here, but I thought that if a person made a change, they would be contacted before having it undone, or at least a reason would be given in the change log. Or at the very least they would be able to contact the editor to get a reason for the undo, and then could appeal to a higher editor if necessary. How else can accuracy be achieved? Was there a different procedure I should have followed? Thank you. Soclear 23:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Thought this link might be interesting. It lays claim to Christopher Columbus being Greek.
What are peoples view on this?
Regards,
Φil hellenism 20:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes I have heard the Greek hypothesis before. There is a book about it called A NEW THEORY CLARIFYING THE IDENTITY OF CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS: A BYZANTINE PRINCE FROM CHIOS, GREECE written by Ruth G Durlacher-Wolper. I must admit it makes a convincing argument and provides substantial evidence. The author claims he was a greek-speaking noble from the island of Chios, which was at the time a part of Genova's maritime empire. In any case I think that the first paragraph should be changed to reflect that fact that the birthplace and nationality of Colombus is not known and that there are several hypotheses each with its pros and cons. Schizophonix 23:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
It's so evident.
But it's hard to admit.
Too many important people in history are from that country.
The fact he settled in Portugal (Hiberica Peninsula in general) only prove that Italy wasn't yet a country able to provide him with funds for his travels.
And It's not Genoa. IT IS GENOVA (pronounced 'Jeh-no-vah, not Jee-'no-ah).
What'll be next?
Amerigo Vespucci not being italian too?
I agree with this gentleman but still most evidently he is Italian.--
Donrub 17:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
"Besides these documents from which we may glean facts about Christopher's early life, there are others which identify the Discoverer as the son of Domenico the wool weaver, beyond the possibility of doubt. For instance, Domenico had a brother Antonio, like him a respectable member of the lower middle class in Genoa. Antonio had three sons: Matteo, Amigeto and Giovanni, who was generally known as Giannetto, the Genoese equivalent of "Johnny." Johnny like Christopher gave up a humdrum occupation to follow the sea. In 1496 the three brothers met in a notary's office at Genoa and agreed that Johnny should go to Spain and seek out his first cousin "Don Cristoforo de Colombo, Admiral of the King of Spain," each contributing one third of the traveling expenses. This quest for a job was highly successful. The Admiral gave Johnny command of a caravel on the Third Voyage to America, and entrusted him with confidential matters as well."
Samuel Eliot Morison, "Admiral of the Ocean Sea," chapter 2, page 14
Domenico Colombo (1418-1496) was the father of the Christopher Columbus and Bartolomeo Columbus [citation needed]. He was also a weaver. He was born in 1418. He had 3 brothers, Franceschino, Giacomo and Bertino. His father, Giovanni Colombo, had apprenticed his son, Domenico, to the loom at age 11. Domenico, a third-generation master of his craft in Genoa, Italy, was also a shopkeeper. His secure, respectable position in the lower middle class did not, however, guarantee his having a firm work ethic. Despite, or because of, having fingers in several problems, he was a poor provider and a worse credit risk, yet a pleasant, well-liked fellow withal. The transactions of Domenico, that he was carder and lanaiolo, proceeded with alternate fortunes: he had opened one tavern to Savona, trading also with the wool and travelling continuously. He was also in the commerce of wines and other kinds, let alone in the sale of asses and lands. When he was found in financial difficulty, he was helped economically from Christopher. Forsaking the loom, two of his sons-Bartholomew and Christopher-went to sea. If Domenico had, however, been prosperous, Christopher might have spent his entire life at a loom.
He lived in a house to the Plan of Sant'Andrea. In the Straight Alley, in the quarter of Ponticello, neighbor to the Door of Sant' Andrea, call also Soprana Door. In this house, Domenico died in 1496.
The city of Santo Domingo therefore was called from the Admiral in memory of his father Domenico (Domingo in Spanish).
Susanna Fontanarossa (?-?) (Susanna of Fontarossa) was the mother of Cristoforo Colombo, a Genoese wool weaver commonly believed to have been Christopher Columbus (aka Cristoval Colon), the famous navigator and explorer who was generally credited as a discoverer of the Americas, although contemporary scholarship is less equivocal.
Almost nothing is known about her before her marriage to Domenico Colombo in 1445. She bore 5 children to Domenico: Cristoforo Colombo, Bartolomeo Colombo, Giovanni Colombo, Giacomo Colombo and a daughter named Bianchinetta Colombo.
A notarised document of sale in the Genoa state archive contains the Latinate text «Sozana,(quondam) de Jacobi de Fontana Rubea, uxor Dominici de Columbo de Ianua ac Christophorus et Pelegrinus filii eorum», which can be translated as "Susanna was (the daughter) of Giacomo from Fontanarossa of the Bisagno, wife of Domenico Columbus from Genoa, their sons are Cristoforo and Pellegrino." The Val Bisagno was a significant inland district in the ancient Republic of Genoa including the valley of the river Bisagno. Thus she was described as 'Susanna from Fontanarossa' within the Val Bisagno, rather than Suzanna Fontarossa.
Today the hilltop village of Fontanarossa, Goretto, Genova, Liguria, in the Val Trebbia, (20 miles inland of Genoa at [show location on an interactive map] 44°35′10.66″N, 9°15′18.80″E) and only 4 miles beyond the watershed of the river Bisagno), has a marble stone with the inscription Susanna Fontanarossa, the mother of Christopher Columbus, was born in this village. ("In questo borgo nacque Susanna Fontanarossa, madre di Cristoforo Colombo."). The village records state that she may have been born in the hamlet of “Le Ferriere”.
Little is known about her after 1484. She died before Domenico, her husband.
Well, it would make sense that a merchant who is famous primarily for something he didn't mean to do would have risen out of obscurity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.147.210.162 ( talk) 00:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, but he was son to Domenico Colombo and Susanna Fontanarossa and brother to Matteo, Amigeto and Giovanni
Samuel Eliot Morison, "Admiral of the Ocean Sea," chapter 2, page 14
I suggest to consider as unique and reliable fonts about Cristoforo Colombo the ones by former Professor Emilio Taviani, the greatest researcher about everything concerning Colombo's life. He has written more than a hundred books about this seafarer life and his texts have got a high reputation in Spanish, British and North American universities.
Let's admit that there is a lot of doubt about Columbus life. Not only his origins.
When I read something like: "Columbus died in Valladolid" I wonder where this selfconfidence comes from. Let's see: when Columbus was dying, the king decided to visit him. A travel was organized. The king was in Valladolid. The king left Valladolid to go see Columbus. Therefore Columbus was not in Valladolid. In case of doubt, the town house of Valladolid undertook an exhaustive study about this subject. Go read it at Valladolid library. Writers of the study were of the opinion that Columbus never visited Valladolid and it was completely impossible that he had died there, for many references of that fact would exist and none was found even when the correct documents could be consulted.
So I request that "Columbus died in Valladolid" is rewritten to something like: "According to what is commonly believed by those who have never checked, Columbus is said to have died in valladolid". Ok, I am exagerating, but you get my point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.141.92.14 ( talk) 20:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Why doesnt the article mention that many consider christopher columbus a terrorist, and that he arrived to spain in chains??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.32.126 ( talk) 22:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Among different WP pages, I found discrepancies on where this portrait is exhibited.
The
Uffizi, Florence, declares
[3] only two paintings by Del Piombo: "Portrait of a Woman" and "Death of Adonis". No picture, but obviously neither refers to Columbus.
On the other hand, The
Metropolitan Museum of New York
[4] possess a "Portrait of a Man, Said to be Christopher Columbus", with the following very interesting description: "Painted in Rome by one of the outstanding masters of the High Renaissance, this badly damaged portrait purports to show Christopher Columbus. However, the inscription—though old—may not be original, and the date 1519 means that the picture cannot have been painted from life, as Columbus died in 1506. There are other portraits purporting to show Columbus that depict a very different looking person. Nonetheless, from an early date our picture became the authoritative likeness." Enclosed is a picture identical to that illustrating this article.
Kind regards,
Zack Holly Venturi 17:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Even a quick, "diagonal" read reveals two mistakes at least: it's not "Virgin gorda" but "Virgen gorda" (yes, a letter DOES make a difference, and not only in English!), its proper translation isn't "fat virgin" but rather "fat Virgin" (same observation as above applies), and "La Pinta" is actually supposed to have meant "the Dove" (which is one of the older meanings of the word). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.142.132.13 ( talk) 15:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
"Besides these documents from which we may glean facts about Christopher's early life, there are others which identify the Discoverer as the son of Domenico the wool weaver, beyond the possibility of doubt. For instance, Domenico had a brother Antonio, like him a respectable member of the lower middle class in Genoa. Antonio had three sons: Matteo, Amigeto and Giovanni, who was generally known as Giannetto, the Genoese equivalent of "Johnny." Johnny like Christopher gave up a humdrum occupation to follow the sea. In 1496 the three brothers met in a notary's office at Genoa and agreed that Johnny should go to Spain and seek out his first cousin "Don Cristoforo de Colombo, Admiral of the King of Spain," each contributing one third of the traveling expenses. This quest for a job was highly successful. The Admiral gave Johnny command of a caravel on the Third Voyage to America, and entrusted him with confidential matters as well."
Samuel Eliot Morison, "Admiral of the Ocean Sea," chapter 2, page 14 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.20.228.113 ( talk) 02:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Domenico Colombo (1418-1496) was the father of the Christopher Columbus and Bartolomeo Columbus [citation needed]. He was also a weaver.
He was born in 1418. He had 3 brothers, Franceschino, Giacomo and Bertino. His father, Giovanni Colombo, had apprenticed his son, Domenico, to the loom at age 11. Domenico, a third-generation master of his craft in Genoa, Italy, was also a shopkeeper. His secure, respectable position in the lower middle class did not, however, guarantee his having a firm work ethic. Despite, or because of, having fingers in several problems, he was a poor provider and a worse credit risk, yet a pleasant, well-liked fellow withal. The transactions of Domenico, that he was carder and lanaiolo, proceeded with alternate fortunes: he had opened one tavern to Savona, trading also with the wool and travelling continuously. He was also in the commerce of wines and other kinds, let alone in the sale of asses and lands. When he was found in financial difficulty, he was helped economically from Christopher. Forsaking the loom, two of his sons-Bartholomew and Christopher-went to sea. If Domenico had, however, been prosperous, Christopher might have spent his entire life at a loom.
He lived in a house to the Plan of Sant'Andrea. In the Straight Alley, in the quarter of Ponticello, neighbor to the Door of Sant' Andrea, call also Soprana Door. In this house, Domenico died in 1496.
The city of Santo Domingo therefore was called from the Admiral in memory of his father Domenico (Domingo in Spanish). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.20.228.113 ( talk) 03:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Susanna Fontanarossa (?-?) (Susanna of Fontarossa) was the mother of Cristoforo Colombo, a Genoese wool weaver commonly believed to have been Christopher Columbus (aka Cristoval Colon), the famous navigator and explorer who was generally credited as a discoverer of the Americas, although contemporary scholarship is less equivocal.
Almost nothing is known about her before her marriage to Domenico Colombo in 1445. She bore 5 children to Domenico: Cristoforo Colombo, Bartolomeo Colombo, Giovanni Colombo, Giacomo Colombo and a daughter named Bianchinetta Colombo.
A notarised document of sale in the Genoa state archive contains the Latinate text «Sozana,(quondam) de Jacobi de Fontana Rubea, uxor Dominici de Columbo de Ianua ac Christophorus et Pelegrinus filii eorum», which can be translated as "Susanna was (the daughter) of Giacomo from Fontanarossa of the Bisagno, wife of Domenico Columbus from Genoa, their sons are Cristoforo and Pellegrino." The Val Bisagno was a significant inland district in the ancient Republic of Genoa including the valley of the river Bisagno. Thus she was described as 'Susanna from Fontanarossa' within the Val Bisagno, rather than Suzanna Fontarossa.
Today the hilltop village of Fontanarossa, Goretto, Genova, Liguria, in the Val Trebbia, (20 miles inland of Genoa at [show location on an interactive map] 44°35′10.66″N, 9°15′18.80″E) and only 4 miles beyond the watershed of the river Bisagno), has a marble stone with the inscription Susanna Fontanarossa, the mother of Christopher Columbus, was born in this village. ("In questo borgo nacque Susanna Fontanarossa, madre di Cristoforo Colombo."). The village records state that she may have been born in the hamlet of “Le Ferriere”.
Little is known about her after 1484. She died before Domenico, her husband.
Can someone please find a better quote for the legacy section on opposition to Columbus than something from Ward Churchill? There are plenty of legitimate academics and politicians who don't like Columbus; we don't need to use a nut who's defended the 9/11 attacks as being great as the mouthpiece for this viewpoint and thereby cast it as a fringe theory. SnowFire 00:00, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Not only is he a nut but, he is no longer a professor of anything, anywhere having been caught out as a liar, fraud, plagiarist, etc. Fletchflynn 02:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't feel the Prince Madoc legend needs to be mentioned in the first sentence of the article. The belief is notable, but not widely held. I propose that it be changed to others and link to Pre-Columbian Trans-oceanic Contact, which details the stories of Madoc and others. Twalls 14:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Nicolás de Ovando should be mentioned regarding Columbus's fourth voyage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.130.235.74 ( talk) 23:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
one entire paragraph on this article and the website [5]are exactly the same: "Europe had long enjoyed a safe passage to China and India— sources of valued goods such as silk, spices and opiates— under the hegemony of the Mongol Empire. With the Fall of Constantinople to the Muslims in 1453, the land route to Asia became more difficult. The Ottoman conquest of Egypt similarly impeded the Red Sea route. Portuguese sailors took to traveling south around Africa to Asia. The Columbus brothers had a different idea. By the 1480s, they had developed a plan to travel to the Indies, then construed roughly as all of south and east Asia, by sailing directly west across the 'Ocean Sea,'"
one of the websites is plagerising. plz tell me whats going on @ my talk page [6] -- Jazmine 22:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
seriously, do you mean it? I've heard about Columbus at school, at home, and have done about 5 reports on him. EVERY SOURCE I HAVE USED EXCEPT THIS ONE says most people thought that the earth was flat. What the heck?? has someone put a big lie on this article??? --Jazmine 22:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
The following paragraph is lifted directly from Howard Zinn's, A People's History of the United States (chapter 1). While the work is listed as one of the cited works, this paragraph is not cited. As it stands, it's clearly plagiarized information.
"Columbus's report to the royal court in Madrid was extravagant. He insisted he had reached Asia (it was Cuba) and an island off the coast of China (Hispaniola). His descriptions were part fact, part fiction: Hispaniola is a miracle. Mountains and hills, plains and pastures, are both fertile and beautiful, the harbors are very good and there are many wide rivers of which the majority contain gold, There are many spices, and great mines of gold and other metals."
"Within academia, plagiarism by students, professors, or researchers is considered academic dishonesty or academic fraud and offenders are subject to academic censure. In journalism, plagiarism is considered a breach of journalistic ethics, and reporters caught plagiarizing typically face disciplinary measures ranging from suspension to termination." (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism) Ajsheets 03:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
The filmmaker is put here with the name "Chris Columbus." However, Even the article admits that his real name is Christopher (by putting his name as Christopher "Chris" Columbus). So, put a redirect. Please. PRhyu 11:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
This article is missing the opinions of Columbus about the natives. I have to write a report about christopher Columbus and his opinion of the natives. It needs to state his opinion to help people understand why he treated people the way he did and to help people understand Columbus's views of the world.
-Em Dog —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.130.216.169 ( talk) 00:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, so this article is protected, which means I can't change the obvious clanger in the first paragraph: "Indigeneous" is not a word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.12.252.11 ( talk) 00:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Under Nationality - University spelled Univeristy |
Under Language - Mixture spelled Mixure |
Under Third Voyage - Hispaniola spelled Hispanolia |
Under Governorship and Arrest - Hispaniola spelled Hispanolia |
Thanks Much (W00t table) -- Chipmunker ( talk) 23:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC) |
Considering the historic importance of the subject, the standard of English composition in this article is generally very poor, even to the point where it brings Wikipedia into disrepute. I think it is time for a single editor with a command of academic-quality English to completely rewrite it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.0.113.136 ( talk) 09:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
In the section about Columbus's first voyage, the word describing the Indians in his quote which was supposed to be ingenuous is spelled ingenious which obviously has a totally different meaning. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Sumaya27 (
talk •
contribs) 12:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I suggest to consider as unique and reliable fonts about Cristoforo Colombo the ones provided by former Professor Paolo Emilio Taviani, the greatest researcher about everything concerning Colombo's life. He has written more than a hundred books about this seafarer life and his texts have got a high reputation in Spanish, British and North American universities.
* mosmaiorum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.116.187.25 ( talk) 03:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I find this statement both sickening and hard to believe.
"Following his death, his body underwent excarnation—the flesh was removed so that only his bones remained." Following death, one of the greatest explorers of the western world would have been sent to some Spanish butchery which undressed him and carefully sliced off all the flesh of this old man? Honestly, it sounds like a baseless, grotesque urban legend.
217.209.93.115 ( talk) 20:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
217.209.93.115 ( talk) 23:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree, the excarnation reference definitely needs a source. I edited out the reference since it doesn't seem to me like unverifiable information should be left on the page. If it is indeed true, please provide a source before reverting my edit. Whiskyrye ( talk) 10:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
one can not discover something if there were already people there, it has already been found. in this light then columbus should not be given the title of discoverer of the american continants. anyone agree? Charred Feathers ( talk) 10:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
or at least put in a treatise about how he can not be named discoverer, even though this miconception is how he is remembered...
Charred Feathers (
talk) 10:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Nothing in the text presented suggests rape? nothing in the Spanish original text suggests it either? Why is this named as such in the entry? At worst it seems someone made advances on the woman was rejected and finally an agreement was reached? What of this consists of rape? These accusations are very serious if they're true they should be presented with clear evidence?
Not that I'd see the relevance even then. Rapes exist in the USA, but i doubt they'll appear on GWBush's wiki entry...? What of this purports to historical relevance - as tragic as it to be true - would be? 89.155.103.197 ( talk) 08:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
" His combination of languages is generally accepted as a learned way that Columbus, an uneducated twelve-year old from Genoa who set sail on a ship to Portugal, had eventually (through travels in Portugal and Spain) created this pidgin form of Iberian languages "
If he was so uneducated how could he ever speak greek and latin along with all the other languages he spoke? I think it's quite the contrary, this was a very versed individual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.138.73.34 ( talk) 01:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I addehel
I'm just curious as to what knowledge the Europeans had of these lands at the time. Even if the American continent didn't exist, the first shore you'd encounter by sailing westward from Spain would be that of either Indonesia, The Philippines, or Indochina. Or did they consider them part of India ? 69.132.19.159 ( talk) 02:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
No, the paralel 28º that Columbus followed in Ocean to west rises China shores in a direct line, If America would not exist), not Indochina or Indonésia. the goal of Columbus(apparent and Oficial) was Cathay(China) and Cipango(Japan), but the first Geographic goal was Cipango-Japan(for Geographic reasons); "INDIA" was the common name for all East(orient) for all Europeans. Of course the spicific India was too the essencial goal for Columbus, but in the Great Oceanic voyage He needed arrive first in Cipango, China or Indonisia shores first. Some People belive that he was a secret agent of John II of Portugal, and he knew more that we believe today. He have relations and payments by is "Friend" John II in Spain("Friend" writen in a letter of the Portuguese King to him in Castille) when he already serve the Spanish Catholic kings. Portuguese need assure the route to India by Atlantic-Indian Oceans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.22.35.1 ( talk) 00:12, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Among other things, this article seems to skip over the fact that Columbus and his fucking crew killed, annully raped and destroyed the native peoples and their lands. In the end some 2 million were slaughtered by the Europeans. Columbus started an avalanche of genocide. For more information please check out: Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States (specifically Chapter 1: Columbus, the Indians, and Human Progress) BKalesti 05:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the original poster. The fact that Columbus's mistreatment of the natives is barely mentioned in this article is extremely Eurocentric. And for those of you that think Columbus's bad deeds never happened, you're full of it. Unfortunately I don't have with me my book that goes into detail on many of the atrocities he and his crew committed, but here is a website I quickly found googling that clearly cites all their assertions: http://www.understandingprejudice.org/nativeiq/columbus.htm If Wikipedia wants to be taken seriously as an encyclopedia it can't selectively include information like it has in this article. For example, take this passage from the Encyclopedia Brittanica article:
"According to the older understanding, the “discovery” of the Americas was a great triumph, one in which Columbus played the part of hero in accomplishing the four voyages, in being the means of bringing great material profit to Spain and to other European countries, and in opening up the Americas to European settlement. The more recent perspective, however, has concentrated on the destructive side of the European conquest, emphasizing, for example, the disastrous impact of the slave trade and the ravages of imported disease on the indigenous peoples of the Caribbean region and the American continents. The sense of triumph has diminished accordingly, and the view of Columbus as hero has now been replaced, for many, by one of a man deeply flawed. While this second perception rarely doubts Columbus's sincerity or abilities as a navigator, it emphatically removes him from his position of honour." http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9109621/Christopher-Columbus
This is just in the introduction section, and there is nothing even close to suggesting this view towards Columbus in the entire wikipedia article.
Hopefully someone will edit it before then, but if not I'll probably make some changes sometime next week. Whiskyrye ( talk) 05:06, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I am so happy there is disputes on this. I read this article, just to see if they included the genocide of an entire people. The genocide and brutality columbus provided the natives of Haiti is a part of history that should not be left out!! This "leaving out" to portray a "hero" should not be in an "encyclopedia", and wikipedia should seriously think about revamping the way this site runs. Recommended read: "Lies my Teacher Told Me" by James W. Loewen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.223.232.73 ( talk) 22:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I have read that it was Ferdinand's treasurer Luis de Santangel who intervened and convinced her, because he could not convince Ferdinand himself. [1] Shield2 20:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
convinced her about what?? -- Jazmine 22:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
To sponsor his voyage. He had been asking her and others, and she found his ideas interesting, but deferred the matter to a counsel that rejected his proposals, as did Ferdinand until finally Ferdinand's treasurer convinced her to support Columbus. Shield2 07:07, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I heard that it was Luis de Santangel who actually sponsored him. Apparently, Isabella denied him, so he was going to another country to see if they would support him. He was staying at an inn, and a messanger came to see him to tell Christopher that Luis de Santagel would support his cause. 76.102.172.175 23:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC) 22:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Denying one of the more popular theories published in Portugal (including a book published this year [2006], that affirms without any proof, that John Gonçalves Zarco was a Jew, we have proof from DNA that rejects this theory. The DNA haploids from the descendants of Zarco are clearly indicative of a Caucasian making his ancestor original to some part of Europe and not the Middle East. The DNA also proves that Zarco and the current Duke of Braganza have a common ancestor in the Kings of Portugal. – O MISTERIO COLOMBO REVELADO, pg 418
-- Jazmine 22:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
what is yo problem dude why u on here this page is filled with f*ckin lies take a hint (leave) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.254.6.149 ( talk) 21:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Those who know Portuguese History are aware that since its foundation Portugal protected populations following other creeds than the Catholic Religion. So caucasian people living in Portuguese territory were often Jewish. Hence, as someone explained here, the race doesn't explain the religious beliefs. Embrulha!
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Slowly the truth is coming to light. The Genoese wool weaver is washed up and shrinking into oblivion. The history of a genoese woolweaver was never proven and based on false testimony, lively imagination and pig-headed stuborness of historians. First Manuel Rosa proved the Testament was falsified to say "being I born in Genoa" [1]. Then he proved that Morison was an inventor showing how the facts never existed to support the assumptions in Admiral of the Ocean Sea. Next he proved that Filipa Moniz was a "dona Comendadeira" member of the Portuguese Military Order of Santiago and not being able to marry without permission from the Master who was at the time King John II of Portugal. Now, are you ready fot this?... it is now proven that the arms long assumed to have been those of the Admiral are wrong. Manuel Rosa had called it already last year and he was again proven right by the documents. The Royal Grant of Arms signed by the Catholic Kings proves all historians up to now were wrong about the true arms. Therefore the arms were never stolen from the genoese woolweaver's guild as Morison invented. For the real true arms see Revista de la Federación Española de Genealogia y Heráldica, Cuadernos de Ayala 26 - Abril 2006. "El escudo de armas de Cristóbal Colón. Estudio de un acrecentamiento heráldico", p.9-25. by Dr. D. Félix MARTÍNEZ LLORENTE. [2] One by one the book O Mistério Colombo Revelado has hit the bull's eye and proven the history of a genoese Colombo was false. 02:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC) Carlos Mateus
Someone who knows little about the Admiral Colón has edited the article again putting down the date of birth as 1451 in Genoa. Worst of all they have invented a history of a Columbus working for some Italians being the same Admiral who discovered the New World when NOT ONE FACT supports this.
"In 1470 the Columbus Family moved to Savona, where Domenico took over a tavern. In the same year, he was in the service of René I of Anjou in a Genoese ship hired to support his unfortunate attempt to conquer the Kingdom of Naples. In 1473 he began his apprenticeship as business agent for three important families of Genoa(the ). Later he allegedly made a trip to Chios, in the Aegean Sea. In May 1476, he took part in an armed convoy sent by Genoa to carry a valuable cargo to northern Europe. He docked in Bristol, Galway, in Ireland and very likely, in 1477 he was in Iceland. In 1479 Columbus reached his brother Bartolomeo in Lisbon, keeping on trading for the Centurione family."
I challenge the editor who made thes statements to show:
- proof that Cristoforo Colombo wool-weaver from Genoa and Savona was Cristóbal Colón married to a noble woman in Portugal uncle to Counts and Marquises in Portugal and navigator, Admiral, Viceroy and Governor for Spain.
- proof that the Spanish Admiral was ever an aprentice in business with the Centurione, Di Negro and Spinola.
- proof that a wool-weaver Columbus sailed for Renè d'Anjou and proof of the date of 1470.
- proof that the Admiral ever worked for the Centurione while in Portugal.
- proof that Bartolomeo Colombo, wool-weaver from Genoa and Savona ever lived in Portugal and that the wool-weaver was a mapmaker in Lisbon.
Having not only the truth but also the lies been revealed in DNA and Forensic studies but also in the book O Mistério Colombo Revelado, Ésquilo, Lisbon 2006, I, like all seekers of the truth, require proof of such silly nonsense as has been propagated not only here in Wikipedia but in books, schools and universities worldwide. Free your mind your heart will follow Colombo.bz 13:06, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Since the place of birth is not known, I suggest that this be removed from the tag. Thanks, SalvadorFernandesZarco
As his Genoese origin has not been in dispute for centuries, it should not but STAY. How pitiful are those who insist with such 'alternative theories', totally unproven!
There is a book called A NEW THEORY CLARIFYING THE IDENTITY OF CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS: A BYZANTINE PRINCE FROM CHIOS, GREECE written by Ruth G Durlacher-Wolper. I must admit it makes a convincing argument and provides substantial evidence. The author claims he was a greek-speaking noble from the island of Chios, which was at the time a part of Genova's maritime empire. Check this page: http://www.greecetravel.com/history/columbus/ Whether you believe this or not, I think that the first paragraph should be changed to reflect that fact that the birthplace and nationality of Colombus is not known and that there are several hypotheses each with its pros and cons. I think that all hypothesis should be presented, and their arguments briefly presented. What do people think about this? Schizophonix 23:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
1- "Genovese Italian was not a written language at that time." Genovese was written since Roman times.
2- "no authentic contemporary portrait of the man has been found" The only state sponsored painting by Alejo Fernández that heads the article is possibly the only one painted during Christophers lifetime.
3- "Moreover, Columbus believed one degree represented a shorter distance on the earth's surface than was commonly held." Columbus NEVER believed in a degree of only 56 1/2. If so he never would have been able to find his way home.
4- "In 1485, Columbus presented his plans to John II, King of fuckers." In 1485 Columbus was living in Castile.
5- "Portugal was no longer interested in trailblazing a western route to the East." Portugal knew about the lands of America and knew neither India nor Asia was located at 3000 miles west and so did Columbus.
82.154.87.198 17:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
In history, all names are rendered into the language of the author, not the original one. That counts especially for all kings. No emotion involved there, it's historiography. -- Flammingo Hey 08:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
CC himself says that his adopted length of one degree of the Earth's surface was 56 2/3 miles. See his letter to the Sovereigns of October 18, 1498. This would not have hindered his navigation in the slightest respect, since he navigated by Dead Reckoning, which does not depend on knowing the size of the earth. -- Keithpickering ( talk) 20:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone has defaced this article with titling a section 'How to get a life' as the header title. Since this article is protected can an administrator or ranking editor please remove it. Antonbomb22 01:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)Antonbomb22
This picture [2] is not Christopher Columbus. The man in the picture is Paolo Toscanelli.-- 87.14.223.2 17:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC
You're right. I guess someone didn't read that article carefully and just put the pic there....or they wanted to confuse us. I never thought Columbus would wear a turban-like head covering... Danny sepley 04:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
No picture of Columbus exist. This is an extraordinary fact. It is unbelivable that such an important man had not been portraited. Sure he was. These pictures have been destroyed for some reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.141.92.14 ( talk) 21:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Please stop with the4 unneeded religious attack. Calling wikipedia non credible source, while you ae allowed to add the info you think is missing is in the very least, extremely bad taste. Everyone knew he was religious and meantioning it is in order, but being a jerk is not. AHH real big, blame leftists for deleting of your religious tirate and attack? Hey jerko, try just meantioning facts without your opion and maybe just maybe it wont get people mad and make them reedit it. IE columbia was roman catholic, true, fact.WIKIPEDIA not being credible. Has nothign to do with columbus, is opinion and has zero business being here. Please go learn some tolerance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.184.85.243 ( talk) 17:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Prove it
The world has known for centuries that Leif Erikson was the first Westerner to discover the Americas around 1000 AD, over 500 years before Columbus. However, Erikson was not the first one who successfully opened the door for European people and cultures to thrive in the New World. The article continues with the tradition that Christopher Columbus was the first to accomplish this feat.
The great landmass of the Americas was probably reached hundreds, if not thousands of times before 1492, whether by island-hopping or by accident. The Vikings famously had brief settlements on the fringes of what would one day be named "North America."
That's not the point.
None of the previous contacts with American Indians was of any consequence. As the renowned historian and Americanist, Marshall Eakin of Vanderbilt University, puts it, "The Columbian Moment was the single most important event in at least the last one thousand years." (Emphasis his, from Conquest of the Americas, available on DVD.) In trying to reach Asia to set up trading posts, Columbus accidentally put the New World on the Old World map and vice versa. The New World had no idea there was another mainland on the other side of the world, and neither did Columbus or any of his contemporaries in Renaissance Europe. It was a major discovery for both hemispheres. For better or for worse, nothing has been so consequential to so many people on so many continents, and we can't merely wish away the unparalleled importance of Columbus's leap of faith .
This article leans toward blaming Columbus specifically for a lot of the bad aspects of the Age of Colonization and skimps on the details about both Columbus' views (i.e. that the Amerindians were fellow humans) and how the Age of Colonization helps peoples from both the Old and New World. Additionally, there is little if any mention of Amerindian atrocities against both their own people and European settlers. Both sides had their peaceful people, and both sides had their warmongering people. Chiss Boy 16:55, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
he was not the first to go to america
Why is the Spanish genocide of the Indians not really mentioned here? Claiming that the human race commited no 'significant genocides' during all the fifty centuries that passed between the dawn of history and the eventual genocide of certain Indians by the Spaniards is... a clear sign of ignorance, not to mention nativeté.
Um, I don't recall writing that above sentence, I wonder how far back my contributions list goes, I'll check it The snare 10:02, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
No, actually, if you check my contributions (if you can) you'll see I had NO contributions of the 26th, someone altered the page to make it look like it was me. The snare 10:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually columbus did, in a sense, create mass genocide. Only indirectly, though he did slaughter thousands and thousands of indians according to the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" by textbook author James W. Loewen. This isn't an excerpt directly from the book but the book talks in length about columbus. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Nozgrd74 (
talk •
contribs) 20:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Also for further reading A peoples history of the United States by howard Zinn, pages 1-8 covers this very well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.143.12 ( talk) 16:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
When adding information to this article, please site sources, especially when the information added could be considered to be of a controversial nature. Bbagot 02:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC) --*******Michael Foucault*******--
Attention must also be paid to Foucault's thesis on the nature of truth. It's very important to realise that there was an interest group to benefit from this 'discovery'made by the navigator in question .Ms Leslie Ann C.Tyson The University of the West Indies, St Augustine ..Trinidad & Tobago
Ok. This next post has been QUOTED out of the book "Ancient Civilizations" my Time Life, Student Library:
Italic textChristopher Columbus didn't discover America: Ice Age people did! Between 25, 000 and 16, 000 years ago, low sea levels exposed a wide land bridge between Siberia and Alaska. Hunter-gatherer families wandered across this land bridge, following drifting animal herds. It may have taken them many years to cross, but eventually they established settlements is North and South America."
It's clear that Christopher Columbus didn't discover America, and that it is a false information. It should have that written down in a section of the Christopher Columbus page. 203.129.51.219 11:55, 7 May 2007 (UTC) (And I wouldn't go to the User:203.129.51.219/203.129.51.219 May 7, :07 am (USA)
i agree, columbus was actually the last person to 'discover' the americas —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Nozgrd74 (
talk •
contribs) 20:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Too true. Columbus did NOT discover America. After all, were there not people living there at the time? One might also say: "Well, he was the first European to discover America." This too is false. There are accounts of Chinese, Norse and even Hebraic cultures having influences in the Americas. But one thing is certain: Columbus did NOT "discover" America. BKalesti 05:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
for certain the vikings were the first europeans in the americas because one there is dna eveidence in the inuit people and archaeological evidence,as for chinese there is no eveidence and chinese junk ships of the day would have had almost no chance to make it across pacific ocean and also the west african possiblity of being the first people in the new world is just crazy afrocentrism,and the ice age columbus it's a theory and a possiblity but will never be accepted because of political correctness that would be implying that the white man really did have a claim to americas because they would have been here before the native americans,but basicaly columbus did dicover america for the old world because after him the flood gates opened and the spainards came in full force , french dutch english,e.t.c-- Mikmik2953 ( talk) 19:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
'Crazy afrocentrism', 'Chinese junk ships', 'white man really did have a claim to Americas'... well, we all know which team you're playing for, don't we? 172.200.102.249 ( talk) 14:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I'll try to help on tightening up the article, the structure is really clumsy, as if it's been copied from a couple of different old encyclopaedias. Sentences like the following drive me crazy - "Columbus' problem was, experts did not accept this estimate." . -- mgaved 13:41, 10 May 2007 (UTC) Yes of course as I said France discovered, the wine, Australia, the Americans, and the chinese discovered dinosaurios and God....and then colombus was from the planet pluton and he was definetly a marcian......VIVA ESPANA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.112.166 ( talk) 15:02, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
The language part seems to be inconsistent and written by following several unproved theories. I'm not an expert, but from what I learned about Columbus, he did not write in genovese (the explanation provided seems to be fair, it wasn't a real written language) and had some trouble writting in Spanish (Castellano), using several Portuguese forms in the process although this is the most used language in his letters. What is out of the question is that he was able to write in Latin, only (religious) scholars would know the language, never sailors. The greek part is just absurd. Also, northern italy is not a language.
The Greek part is not absurd at all. It was the Greeks who calculated the exact circumference of the Earth. The fact that not only did he study Greek, but also the sailors on his ship, means that Columbus was not some kind of "hero who tried to prove the Earth was not flat, but round". I can't believe that so many kids are taught that in school (that's what I was fed as well). Good thing Wiki's help in clarifying that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.96.199 ( talk) 01:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
ALSO - SUGGEST CHANGE European "culture" to European "colonies" in the first paragraph of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philipkais ( talk • contribs) 13:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
In Navigation Plans, need an explanation for his concept of degrees representing less miles than what they actually are. So what if he thought that degrees represented less miles. Well, people need to understand that if his concept of a degree consisted of LESS miles than what it really stands for, then knowing the rough distance to China (for example, from Marco Polo's accounts), instead of only representing, say 180 degrees, it might be something more, like 270 (exact calculations would be REALLY nice in the wiki article). What it means that the remaining say 90 degrees would consist of water, not that much of a distance. This kind of explanation, with exact numbers, would be great —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.70.96.199 ( talk) 01:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
It has been of some concern to scholars that a simple sailor with no possessions of his own was allowed to marry the daughter of a nobleman, it would be interesting to approach the subject as an example to the doubts on his origin. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.22.16.215 ( talk) 21:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
Columbus return route also creates doubt in scholars, because he took the correct (fastest) route through the Atlantic without having any knowledge on the maritime currents in the middle of the ocean. There are also some suspicions about the three (3) storms that made him stop in two Azores islands and in Lisbon in conjunction with the time spent in Lisbon leads to believe in some kind of link between him and the Portuguese crown, specially the Queen, since most part of his stay in Lisbon was spent in a rather complicated trip to Vila Franca de Xira to meet the queen. Also he stopped once again in Faro before heading to Spain. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.22.16.215 ( talk) 21:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
Columbus, better, Colon, was born in Portugal and he was a noble man. He was King João II friend's and a spie of the portuguese crown in Castilla. Why he's first landing was portuguese land? The portuguese and spanish were rivals! Why he stands in Lisbon a several days, and speaks with portuguese King after discovery America? Don´t forget that the portuguese people were, at that time, the kings of the sea! They have the sea knowledge at that time! Don't joke! The portuguese were the discovery master's at XV and XVII century. The Spanish, English and Dutch just stolen the lands discovery by portuguese people. Portugal is a small contry, and at that time portuguese were less than one million! Poucos mas bons!
The article says:
Following Washington Irving's myth-filled 1828 biography of Columbus, Americans commonly believed Columbus had difficulty obtaining support for his plan because Europeans thought the Earth was flat.[2] In fact, few at the time of Columbus’s voyage, and virtually no sailors or navigators, believed this.[3] Most agreed Earth was a sphere. This had been the general opinion of ancient Greek science, and continued as the standard opinion (for example of Bede in The Reckoning of Time) until Isidore of Seville misread the classical authors and stated the Earth was flat, inventing the T and O map concept. This view was very influential, but never wholly accepted. Knowledge of the Earth's spherical nature was not limited to scientists: for instance, Dante's Divine Comedy is based on a spherical Earth. Columbus put forth arguments based on the circumference of the sphere. Most scholars accepted Ptolemy's claim the terrestrial landmass (for Europeans of the time, comprising Eurasia and Africa) occupied 180 degrees of the terrestrial sphere, leaving 180 degrees of water.
I believe that some more information should be added here. Pythagoras proposed a spherical world in the sixth century BCE. In the second century CE, Roman astronomer Ptolemy proves the Earth was spherical, pointing out the round shadow of the Earth during a lunar eclipse, and the glaring fact that the masts of sailboats come into view on the horizon before the hull. This information is necessary because the public generally seems to believe that the Queen was worried that Columbus would sail off the Earth, and that stupid myth refuses to die.
Bartolomeu Dias sailed around the south of Africa, not the Horn of Africa.
--Yes, I already tried changing this, only to have it immediately changed back and my request for a reason ignored. Too bad there's not better supervision of the pages. Soclear 17:36, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
--OK thank you, I've changed it again and so far it is staying. Here is the listing where I changed it before:
So I eventually learned about editor talk pages, and posted to the Indon talk page:
Hello, could you please tell me why the Christopher Columbus page says that Bartholomeu Dias rounded the Horn of Africa, when it was the Cape of Good Hope that he rounded? Thank you. Soclear 04:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
..and why do you ask me?? — Indon (reply) — 11:55, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Aren't you the one who changed it back?:
1. (cur) (last) 15:43, 23 March 2007 Indon (Talk | contribs) m (Reverted to revision 117296751 by SpuriousQ.)
2. (cur) (last) 15:41, 23 March 2007 Soclear (Talk | contribs) (changed "Horn of Africa" to "southern tip of Africa")
Soclear 14:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I got no answer to the last posting, and when I posted the question again later, it was removed.
I'm still learning the system here, but I thought that if a person made a change, they would be contacted before having it undone, or at least a reason would be given in the change log. Or at the very least they would be able to contact the editor to get a reason for the undo, and then could appeal to a higher editor if necessary. How else can accuracy be achieved? Was there a different procedure I should have followed? Thank you. Soclear 23:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Thought this link might be interesting. It lays claim to Christopher Columbus being Greek.
What are peoples view on this?
Regards,
Φil hellenism 20:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes I have heard the Greek hypothesis before. There is a book about it called A NEW THEORY CLARIFYING THE IDENTITY OF CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS: A BYZANTINE PRINCE FROM CHIOS, GREECE written by Ruth G Durlacher-Wolper. I must admit it makes a convincing argument and provides substantial evidence. The author claims he was a greek-speaking noble from the island of Chios, which was at the time a part of Genova's maritime empire. In any case I think that the first paragraph should be changed to reflect that fact that the birthplace and nationality of Colombus is not known and that there are several hypotheses each with its pros and cons. Schizophonix 23:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
It's so evident.
But it's hard to admit.
Too many important people in history are from that country.
The fact he settled in Portugal (Hiberica Peninsula in general) only prove that Italy wasn't yet a country able to provide him with funds for his travels.
And It's not Genoa. IT IS GENOVA (pronounced 'Jeh-no-vah, not Jee-'no-ah).
What'll be next?
Amerigo Vespucci not being italian too?
I agree with this gentleman but still most evidently he is Italian.--
Donrub 17:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
"Besides these documents from which we may glean facts about Christopher's early life, there are others which identify the Discoverer as the son of Domenico the wool weaver, beyond the possibility of doubt. For instance, Domenico had a brother Antonio, like him a respectable member of the lower middle class in Genoa. Antonio had three sons: Matteo, Amigeto and Giovanni, who was generally known as Giannetto, the Genoese equivalent of "Johnny." Johnny like Christopher gave up a humdrum occupation to follow the sea. In 1496 the three brothers met in a notary's office at Genoa and agreed that Johnny should go to Spain and seek out his first cousin "Don Cristoforo de Colombo, Admiral of the King of Spain," each contributing one third of the traveling expenses. This quest for a job was highly successful. The Admiral gave Johnny command of a caravel on the Third Voyage to America, and entrusted him with confidential matters as well."
Samuel Eliot Morison, "Admiral of the Ocean Sea," chapter 2, page 14
Domenico Colombo (1418-1496) was the father of the Christopher Columbus and Bartolomeo Columbus [citation needed]. He was also a weaver. He was born in 1418. He had 3 brothers, Franceschino, Giacomo and Bertino. His father, Giovanni Colombo, had apprenticed his son, Domenico, to the loom at age 11. Domenico, a third-generation master of his craft in Genoa, Italy, was also a shopkeeper. His secure, respectable position in the lower middle class did not, however, guarantee his having a firm work ethic. Despite, or because of, having fingers in several problems, he was a poor provider and a worse credit risk, yet a pleasant, well-liked fellow withal. The transactions of Domenico, that he was carder and lanaiolo, proceeded with alternate fortunes: he had opened one tavern to Savona, trading also with the wool and travelling continuously. He was also in the commerce of wines and other kinds, let alone in the sale of asses and lands. When he was found in financial difficulty, he was helped economically from Christopher. Forsaking the loom, two of his sons-Bartholomew and Christopher-went to sea. If Domenico had, however, been prosperous, Christopher might have spent his entire life at a loom.
He lived in a house to the Plan of Sant'Andrea. In the Straight Alley, in the quarter of Ponticello, neighbor to the Door of Sant' Andrea, call also Soprana Door. In this house, Domenico died in 1496.
The city of Santo Domingo therefore was called from the Admiral in memory of his father Domenico (Domingo in Spanish).
Susanna Fontanarossa (?-?) (Susanna of Fontarossa) was the mother of Cristoforo Colombo, a Genoese wool weaver commonly believed to have been Christopher Columbus (aka Cristoval Colon), the famous navigator and explorer who was generally credited as a discoverer of the Americas, although contemporary scholarship is less equivocal.
Almost nothing is known about her before her marriage to Domenico Colombo in 1445. She bore 5 children to Domenico: Cristoforo Colombo, Bartolomeo Colombo, Giovanni Colombo, Giacomo Colombo and a daughter named Bianchinetta Colombo.
A notarised document of sale in the Genoa state archive contains the Latinate text «Sozana,(quondam) de Jacobi de Fontana Rubea, uxor Dominici de Columbo de Ianua ac Christophorus et Pelegrinus filii eorum», which can be translated as "Susanna was (the daughter) of Giacomo from Fontanarossa of the Bisagno, wife of Domenico Columbus from Genoa, their sons are Cristoforo and Pellegrino." The Val Bisagno was a significant inland district in the ancient Republic of Genoa including the valley of the river Bisagno. Thus she was described as 'Susanna from Fontanarossa' within the Val Bisagno, rather than Suzanna Fontarossa.
Today the hilltop village of Fontanarossa, Goretto, Genova, Liguria, in the Val Trebbia, (20 miles inland of Genoa at [show location on an interactive map] 44°35′10.66″N, 9°15′18.80″E) and only 4 miles beyond the watershed of the river Bisagno), has a marble stone with the inscription Susanna Fontanarossa, the mother of Christopher Columbus, was born in this village. ("In questo borgo nacque Susanna Fontanarossa, madre di Cristoforo Colombo."). The village records state that she may have been born in the hamlet of “Le Ferriere”.
Little is known about her after 1484. She died before Domenico, her husband.
Well, it would make sense that a merchant who is famous primarily for something he didn't mean to do would have risen out of obscurity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.147.210.162 ( talk) 00:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, but he was son to Domenico Colombo and Susanna Fontanarossa and brother to Matteo, Amigeto and Giovanni
Samuel Eliot Morison, "Admiral of the Ocean Sea," chapter 2, page 14
I suggest to consider as unique and reliable fonts about Cristoforo Colombo the ones by former Professor Emilio Taviani, the greatest researcher about everything concerning Colombo's life. He has written more than a hundred books about this seafarer life and his texts have got a high reputation in Spanish, British and North American universities.
Let's admit that there is a lot of doubt about Columbus life. Not only his origins.
When I read something like: "Columbus died in Valladolid" I wonder where this selfconfidence comes from. Let's see: when Columbus was dying, the king decided to visit him. A travel was organized. The king was in Valladolid. The king left Valladolid to go see Columbus. Therefore Columbus was not in Valladolid. In case of doubt, the town house of Valladolid undertook an exhaustive study about this subject. Go read it at Valladolid library. Writers of the study were of the opinion that Columbus never visited Valladolid and it was completely impossible that he had died there, for many references of that fact would exist and none was found even when the correct documents could be consulted.
So I request that "Columbus died in Valladolid" is rewritten to something like: "According to what is commonly believed by those who have never checked, Columbus is said to have died in valladolid". Ok, I am exagerating, but you get my point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.141.92.14 ( talk) 20:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Why doesnt the article mention that many consider christopher columbus a terrorist, and that he arrived to spain in chains??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.114.32.126 ( talk) 22:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Among different WP pages, I found discrepancies on where this portrait is exhibited.
The
Uffizi, Florence, declares
[3] only two paintings by Del Piombo: "Portrait of a Woman" and "Death of Adonis". No picture, but obviously neither refers to Columbus.
On the other hand, The
Metropolitan Museum of New York
[4] possess a "Portrait of a Man, Said to be Christopher Columbus", with the following very interesting description: "Painted in Rome by one of the outstanding masters of the High Renaissance, this badly damaged portrait purports to show Christopher Columbus. However, the inscription—though old—may not be original, and the date 1519 means that the picture cannot have been painted from life, as Columbus died in 1506. There are other portraits purporting to show Columbus that depict a very different looking person. Nonetheless, from an early date our picture became the authoritative likeness." Enclosed is a picture identical to that illustrating this article.
Kind regards,
Zack Holly Venturi 17:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Even a quick, "diagonal" read reveals two mistakes at least: it's not "Virgin gorda" but "Virgen gorda" (yes, a letter DOES make a difference, and not only in English!), its proper translation isn't "fat virgin" but rather "fat Virgin" (same observation as above applies), and "La Pinta" is actually supposed to have meant "the Dove" (which is one of the older meanings of the word). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.142.132.13 ( talk) 15:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
"Besides these documents from which we may glean facts about Christopher's early life, there are others which identify the Discoverer as the son of Domenico the wool weaver, beyond the possibility of doubt. For instance, Domenico had a brother Antonio, like him a respectable member of the lower middle class in Genoa. Antonio had three sons: Matteo, Amigeto and Giovanni, who was generally known as Giannetto, the Genoese equivalent of "Johnny." Johnny like Christopher gave up a humdrum occupation to follow the sea. In 1496 the three brothers met in a notary's office at Genoa and agreed that Johnny should go to Spain and seek out his first cousin "Don Cristoforo de Colombo, Admiral of the King of Spain," each contributing one third of the traveling expenses. This quest for a job was highly successful. The Admiral gave Johnny command of a caravel on the Third Voyage to America, and entrusted him with confidential matters as well."
Samuel Eliot Morison, "Admiral of the Ocean Sea," chapter 2, page 14 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.20.228.113 ( talk) 02:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Domenico Colombo (1418-1496) was the father of the Christopher Columbus and Bartolomeo Columbus [citation needed]. He was also a weaver.
He was born in 1418. He had 3 brothers, Franceschino, Giacomo and Bertino. His father, Giovanni Colombo, had apprenticed his son, Domenico, to the loom at age 11. Domenico, a third-generation master of his craft in Genoa, Italy, was also a shopkeeper. His secure, respectable position in the lower middle class did not, however, guarantee his having a firm work ethic. Despite, or because of, having fingers in several problems, he was a poor provider and a worse credit risk, yet a pleasant, well-liked fellow withal. The transactions of Domenico, that he was carder and lanaiolo, proceeded with alternate fortunes: he had opened one tavern to Savona, trading also with the wool and travelling continuously. He was also in the commerce of wines and other kinds, let alone in the sale of asses and lands. When he was found in financial difficulty, he was helped economically from Christopher. Forsaking the loom, two of his sons-Bartholomew and Christopher-went to sea. If Domenico had, however, been prosperous, Christopher might have spent his entire life at a loom.
He lived in a house to the Plan of Sant'Andrea. In the Straight Alley, in the quarter of Ponticello, neighbor to the Door of Sant' Andrea, call also Soprana Door. In this house, Domenico died in 1496.
The city of Santo Domingo therefore was called from the Admiral in memory of his father Domenico (Domingo in Spanish). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.20.228.113 ( talk) 03:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Susanna Fontanarossa (?-?) (Susanna of Fontarossa) was the mother of Cristoforo Colombo, a Genoese wool weaver commonly believed to have been Christopher Columbus (aka Cristoval Colon), the famous navigator and explorer who was generally credited as a discoverer of the Americas, although contemporary scholarship is less equivocal.
Almost nothing is known about her before her marriage to Domenico Colombo in 1445. She bore 5 children to Domenico: Cristoforo Colombo, Bartolomeo Colombo, Giovanni Colombo, Giacomo Colombo and a daughter named Bianchinetta Colombo.
A notarised document of sale in the Genoa state archive contains the Latinate text «Sozana,(quondam) de Jacobi de Fontana Rubea, uxor Dominici de Columbo de Ianua ac Christophorus et Pelegrinus filii eorum», which can be translated as "Susanna was (the daughter) of Giacomo from Fontanarossa of the Bisagno, wife of Domenico Columbus from Genoa, their sons are Cristoforo and Pellegrino." The Val Bisagno was a significant inland district in the ancient Republic of Genoa including the valley of the river Bisagno. Thus she was described as 'Susanna from Fontanarossa' within the Val Bisagno, rather than Suzanna Fontarossa.
Today the hilltop village of Fontanarossa, Goretto, Genova, Liguria, in the Val Trebbia, (20 miles inland of Genoa at [show location on an interactive map] 44°35′10.66″N, 9°15′18.80″E) and only 4 miles beyond the watershed of the river Bisagno), has a marble stone with the inscription Susanna Fontanarossa, the mother of Christopher Columbus, was born in this village. ("In questo borgo nacque Susanna Fontanarossa, madre di Cristoforo Colombo."). The village records state that she may have been born in the hamlet of “Le Ferriere”.
Little is known about her after 1484. She died before Domenico, her husband.
Can someone please find a better quote for the legacy section on opposition to Columbus than something from Ward Churchill? There are plenty of legitimate academics and politicians who don't like Columbus; we don't need to use a nut who's defended the 9/11 attacks as being great as the mouthpiece for this viewpoint and thereby cast it as a fringe theory. SnowFire 00:00, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Not only is he a nut but, he is no longer a professor of anything, anywhere having been caught out as a liar, fraud, plagiarist, etc. Fletchflynn 02:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't feel the Prince Madoc legend needs to be mentioned in the first sentence of the article. The belief is notable, but not widely held. I propose that it be changed to others and link to Pre-Columbian Trans-oceanic Contact, which details the stories of Madoc and others. Twalls 14:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Nicolás de Ovando should be mentioned regarding Columbus's fourth voyage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.130.235.74 ( talk) 23:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
one entire paragraph on this article and the website [5]are exactly the same: "Europe had long enjoyed a safe passage to China and India— sources of valued goods such as silk, spices and opiates— under the hegemony of the Mongol Empire. With the Fall of Constantinople to the Muslims in 1453, the land route to Asia became more difficult. The Ottoman conquest of Egypt similarly impeded the Red Sea route. Portuguese sailors took to traveling south around Africa to Asia. The Columbus brothers had a different idea. By the 1480s, they had developed a plan to travel to the Indies, then construed roughly as all of south and east Asia, by sailing directly west across the 'Ocean Sea,'"
one of the websites is plagerising. plz tell me whats going on @ my talk page [6] -- Jazmine 22:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
seriously, do you mean it? I've heard about Columbus at school, at home, and have done about 5 reports on him. EVERY SOURCE I HAVE USED EXCEPT THIS ONE says most people thought that the earth was flat. What the heck?? has someone put a big lie on this article??? --Jazmine 22:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
The following paragraph is lifted directly from Howard Zinn's, A People's History of the United States (chapter 1). While the work is listed as one of the cited works, this paragraph is not cited. As it stands, it's clearly plagiarized information.
"Columbus's report to the royal court in Madrid was extravagant. He insisted he had reached Asia (it was Cuba) and an island off the coast of China (Hispaniola). His descriptions were part fact, part fiction: Hispaniola is a miracle. Mountains and hills, plains and pastures, are both fertile and beautiful, the harbors are very good and there are many wide rivers of which the majority contain gold, There are many spices, and great mines of gold and other metals."
"Within academia, plagiarism by students, professors, or researchers is considered academic dishonesty or academic fraud and offenders are subject to academic censure. In journalism, plagiarism is considered a breach of journalistic ethics, and reporters caught plagiarizing typically face disciplinary measures ranging from suspension to termination." (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism) Ajsheets 03:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
The filmmaker is put here with the name "Chris Columbus." However, Even the article admits that his real name is Christopher (by putting his name as Christopher "Chris" Columbus). So, put a redirect. Please. PRhyu 11:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
This article is missing the opinions of Columbus about the natives. I have to write a report about christopher Columbus and his opinion of the natives. It needs to state his opinion to help people understand why he treated people the way he did and to help people understand Columbus's views of the world.
-Em Dog —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.130.216.169 ( talk) 00:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, so this article is protected, which means I can't change the obvious clanger in the first paragraph: "Indigeneous" is not a word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.12.252.11 ( talk) 00:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Under Nationality - University spelled Univeristy |
Under Language - Mixture spelled Mixure |
Under Third Voyage - Hispaniola spelled Hispanolia |
Under Governorship and Arrest - Hispaniola spelled Hispanolia |
Thanks Much (W00t table) -- Chipmunker ( talk) 23:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC) |
Considering the historic importance of the subject, the standard of English composition in this article is generally very poor, even to the point where it brings Wikipedia into disrepute. I think it is time for a single editor with a command of academic-quality English to completely rewrite it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.0.113.136 ( talk) 09:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
In the section about Columbus's first voyage, the word describing the Indians in his quote which was supposed to be ingenuous is spelled ingenious which obviously has a totally different meaning. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Sumaya27 (
talk •
contribs) 12:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I suggest to consider as unique and reliable fonts about Cristoforo Colombo the ones provided by former Professor Paolo Emilio Taviani, the greatest researcher about everything concerning Colombo's life. He has written more than a hundred books about this seafarer life and his texts have got a high reputation in Spanish, British and North American universities.
* mosmaiorum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.116.187.25 ( talk) 03:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I find this statement both sickening and hard to believe.
"Following his death, his body underwent excarnation—the flesh was removed so that only his bones remained." Following death, one of the greatest explorers of the western world would have been sent to some Spanish butchery which undressed him and carefully sliced off all the flesh of this old man? Honestly, it sounds like a baseless, grotesque urban legend.
217.209.93.115 ( talk) 20:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
217.209.93.115 ( talk) 23:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree, the excarnation reference definitely needs a source. I edited out the reference since it doesn't seem to me like unverifiable information should be left on the page. If it is indeed true, please provide a source before reverting my edit. Whiskyrye ( talk) 10:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
one can not discover something if there were already people there, it has already been found. in this light then columbus should not be given the title of discoverer of the american continants. anyone agree? Charred Feathers ( talk) 10:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
or at least put in a treatise about how he can not be named discoverer, even though this miconception is how he is remembered...
Charred Feathers (
talk) 10:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Nothing in the text presented suggests rape? nothing in the Spanish original text suggests it either? Why is this named as such in the entry? At worst it seems someone made advances on the woman was rejected and finally an agreement was reached? What of this consists of rape? These accusations are very serious if they're true they should be presented with clear evidence?
Not that I'd see the relevance even then. Rapes exist in the USA, but i doubt they'll appear on GWBush's wiki entry...? What of this purports to historical relevance - as tragic as it to be true - would be? 89.155.103.197 ( talk) 08:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
" His combination of languages is generally accepted as a learned way that Columbus, an uneducated twelve-year old from Genoa who set sail on a ship to Portugal, had eventually (through travels in Portugal and Spain) created this pidgin form of Iberian languages "
If he was so uneducated how could he ever speak greek and latin along with all the other languages he spoke? I think it's quite the contrary, this was a very versed individual. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.138.73.34 ( talk) 01:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)