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I question (A) the notability of this person in a general purpose encyclopedia, and (B) NPOV. Phrases like "published ... to critical acclaim" read like press releases or publicity blurbs and not neutral POV articles. Editing it to read "some critics acclaimed it, and other critics dismissed / criticized it" which would be both more accurate and more neutral still wouldn't get at the question of whether or not Mr. Booker is "notable". For instance, is he a "Published authors, editors and photographers who received multiple independent reviews of or awards for their work" or "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person. (Multiple similar stories describing a single day's news event only count as one coverage.)" or has he "made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field"? -- LQ 16:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not question the notability of the person, given his extensive career and apparent critical status, but I do question whether it is necessary to list every one of his publications. It may be more sensible to detail just the ones he is best known for, for example The Neophiliacs: A Study of the Revolution in English Life In The Fifties and Sixties and The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories. -- Stratman07 ( talk) 04:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I propose reverting the edit which changed the phrase from "false assertion" to "disputed assertion" in the above sentence. There are no reasonable grounds on which Booker's claim that white asbestos is chemically identical to talcum powder could be considered true, so this edit is a watering down of the truth, rather than a clarification. The chemical formula for talc is H2Mg3(SiO3)4 or Mg3Si4O10(OH)2. The chemical formula for chrysotile, the primary ingredient of white asbestos, is Mg3(Si2O5)(OH)4. They are definitively and demonstrably not identical. To say that talc is chemical identical to chrysotile is as inaccurate as saying that Hydrogen Peroxide (H202) is chemically identical to water (H20), a statement which I hope we can all agree is not simply "disputed" but false. 86.163.241.163 ( talk) 21:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
"Defence of the Realm" has repeatedly deleted the entire section on criticisms of Booker's work. Defence of the Realm has claimed that these criticisms are "libelous", but they are merely reports of facts sourced from mainstream publications, including the Guardian newspaper and the UK government's Health and Safety Executive. Unless the user can show that these statements are untrue or defamatory, I can see no basis for removing them. 86.157.92.127 ( talk) 18:48, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
86.159.138.195 ( talk) 20:21, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Please note that, by a decision of the Wikipedia community, this article and others relating to climate change (broadly construed) has been placed under article probation. Editors making disruptive edits may be blocked temporarily from editing the encyclopedia, or subject to other administrative remedies, according to standards that may be higher than elsewhere on Wikipedia. Please see Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation for full information and to review the decision. -- TS 11:56, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm new here, but I am not surprised this article is on probation when such overtly non-neutral/original research material is reinstated without discussion by editors. Even basic copy editing errors [Christopher Booker ad nauseaum, etc.]are reinstated immediately. Jprw ( talk) 12:37, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Jprw, before deleting or watering down content from this article, it would be helpful if you first discussed it here, otherwise this could be seen as vandalism. Just to give one example, and as discussed previously on this page, the claim that white asbestos is "chemically identical to talcum powder" is strictly and literally false, not merely "controversial". The chemical formulae are totally different - more different in fact than the difference between water (H20) and hydrogen peroxide (H202), and there is no scientific controversy around that fact. So it's a false assertion, and describing it as "controversial" simply muddies the waters. Wikipedia aims to report demonstrable facts, not merely produce a woolly summed average of different people's views. Please ensure that you are actually improving the quality of the article, not merely deleting well-referenced content that you dislike...
86.182.26.58 ( talk) 19:10, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
I removed the claim about white asbestos being "chemically identical to talcum powder" because it is original research and in any case far too much detail for a Wikipedia article. There are also other serious (from a Wikipedia standpoint) issues with neutrality, mild personal attacks against the author, WP:CIVIL, WP:POINT, etc.
I find it staggering that you can assume such bad faith against me by using language such as "content that you dislike" and even resort to accusations of vandalism, when all I am doing is trying to bring the article within Wikipedia's guidelines. As I state above, it is therefore of no surprsie that this article is on probabtion. By the way I have had independent verification from Wikipedia that the changes I made in this article were non-problematic. It would also be helpful if you could identify yourself. Jprw ( talk) 09:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
JPRW, I think you may be misunderstanding the wiki rules on 'original research'. Highlighting Booker's scientific claims (which have been widely discussed elsewhere, not least in Monbiot's article), with fully-referenced citations pointing people back to the primary sources, is demonstrably not 'original research'. Deleting such information is therefore vandalism - though it is a welcome step forward that you are now prepared to engage in a discussion about it.
Likewise, giving a factual account of a person's own words cannot in itself constitute a "personal attack" (mild or otherwise) on them. And again, if we're simply reporting facts - even if those facts are not particularly flattering - this is fully consistent with neutrality. In fact, to delete facts simply because a particular editor doesn't like the picture that they paint, is in itself a breach of neutrality... 86.25.255.92 ( talk) 21:48, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
As Booker is to some extent a rather polarising figure one might expect entries in the criticism section to be on the vehement side. Nevertheless, there is no justification in my view for basic Wikipedia guidelines to be so egregiously violated, in particular: WP:BLP; WP:NOR; WP:NPOV; WP:NPA. In this spirit I have removed, now for the third time, inappropriate material from this section. I trust that these changes will not be reverted (as they were twice before – by, I might add, anonymous editors assuming bad faith). If such a reversion does indeed occur I will report the issue to the biographies of living persons noticeboard. Jprw ( talk) 10:14, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
In view of WP:BLP do we not need to be spot on with our sourcing before making "he falsely asserted" claims? If the information is sourced well and reliably I don't have a problem with it. When I first came to the page it read like an attack piece. Also, do you not agree that the following large chunk which I removed constitutes original research:
"Mg3Si4O10(OH)2, while the formula for chrysotile, the primary ingredient of white asbestos, is Mg3(Si2O5)(OH)4. It is worth noting that even if the composition were identical, which it clearly isn't, the actual structure/connectivity is what is significant, a situation well known in chemistry as isomerism at a molecular level and polymorphism (materials science) in the case of non-molecular materials or crystals. What makes chrysotile dangerous is not its composition - silicates are common - but its fibrous structure".
Not to mention far too detailed for a Wikipedia entry? And do you agree with the copy editing changes I made? Best, Jprw ( talk) 13:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
"The small bit of chemistry background there isn't original research. You can source it to any A level chemistry textbook". For a scientist, perhaps, but to a layman it will just go over their heads. It still appears to be unsourced original research in my view. Perhaps a rewritten simplified version, properly sourced, as a compromise? Or perhaps it can in fact be left out altogether? Jprw ( talk) 14:01, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. I think that the criticism section is also perhaps overlong and creates imbalance. Jprw ( talk) 14:48, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that all seems fair. By the way, what about a wording along the following lines: "According to [RELIABLE SOURCE], Booker confused the chemical structure of asbestos and talc".[REFERENCE] Much more reader friendly to the layman. Also, I still have a problem with language like "One of the few things worth writing about Booker is his propensity for making ridiculously false statements on matters of science" -- in a scientific forum this may be acceptable, but to the Wikipedia layman comes across as being at worst an attack, at best the words of someone taking a non-neutral position. I think that we should always be checking the language we use here. Jprw ( talk) 07:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
On the subject of "Criticism" of Booker, I think that the statement "Booker has been described by English writer James Delingpole in The Spectator as doing "the kind of proper, old-school things that journalists hardly ever bother with in this new age of aggregation and flip bloggery: he digs, he makes the calls, he reads the small print, he takes up the cause of the little man and campaigns, he speaks truth to power without fear or favour" is dubious at best. The idea that Delingpole could be a sound and dispassionate critic of Booker is not sensible. Delingpole's opinions on scientific matters are just as dubious as Booker's. Do we agree to delete this statement? Gordoncph ( talk) 21:37, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
I've removed a substantial expansion of the treatment of criticism by George Monbiot. While I think such criticism probably merits coverage, dwelling so much on the comments of a single competitor in the opinion-mongering business is excessive. -- Tasty monster 16:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I should very much like to see a page that summaries this book, the way we have Campbell's Monomyth and the related book The Writer's Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers. I'd consider starting the page myself, but I've already done so on a different wiki and I'm not even finished over there (it is a lengthy book and thus has a lengthy summary). Also, despite the "be bold" policy here, I'm concerned about my ability to be neutral and not to add my own interpretations of the material, because I have been working with the book so long and enjoy it so much (not that I agree with all of it).
Therefore, I request that someone summarize the book The Seven Basic Plots on its own page and stick a link on here. Thank you. Kilyle ( talk) 13:53, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
MN is removing valid material again taht doesn't support his POV William M. Connolley ( talk) 12:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
The material is not valid, it is an attack piece on a blog, self revert now or i will again remove it per wp:blp mark nutley ( talk) 12:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the claim sourced to scienceblogs, which is not appropriate for a BLP. And aside from this particular issue, this BLP needs a lot of work. It's full of coatracks and opinions. Monbiot seems to be mentioned more than Booker himself. ATren ( talk) 13:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I think someone has mistakenly inserted a "not in citation given" claim within the "Views on Science" section. Just to clarify, here's the contested sentence:
In an article in May 2008, Booker again cited the Hodgson and Darnton paper, claiming that "they concluded that the risk of contracting mesothelioma from white asbestos cement was 'insignificant', while that of lung cancer was 'zero'".
And here's the full quote from the May 2008 article "Farmers face £6bn bill for asbestos clean-up" as of 14/3/10: (link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/3558729/Farmers-face-6bn-bill-for-asbestos-clean-up.html) -
The HSE remains adamant that white asbestos is far too dangerous for the law to be changed. Yet this position was comprehensively contradicted by a major study by the HSE's own statisticians, John Hodgson and Andrew Darnton, published in 2000.
After the most extensive review of the literature on asbestos ever carried out, they concluded that the risk of contracting mesothelioma from white asbestos cement was "insignificant", while that of lung cancer was "zero". It is hardly surprising, then, that the HSE is so reluctant to discuss the science behind that law with the £6 billion price tag.
I will tweak the syntax just to make it 100% clear. 86.180.153.113 ( talk) 20:13, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
In an article in May 2008, Booker again cited the Hodgson and Darnton paper, claiming that 'they concluded that the risk of contracting mesothelioma from white asbestos cement was "insignificant", while that of lung cancer was "zero"' This is not in the ref given Farmers face £6bn bill for asbestos clean-up which is why i put a verification failed tag on it mark nutley ( talk) 20:39, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
==> When I click on the reference (7) and then the link at the bottom of the page, it takes me to the page without a problem - not sure where it is you're clicking? If there's a reference elsewhere on the page that needs updating, surely better just to update it? This weblink appears to work fine: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/3558729/Farmers-face-6bn-bill-for-asbestos-clean-up.html 86.180.153.113 ( talk) 20:52, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Jprw ( talk) 13:43, 7 April 2010 (UTC)== Views on science & Criticism ==
These are essentially the same, booker says this, monbiot says this. It is just a repeat of the same stuff in two sections. I propose removing either one or removing all the crits which are repeated from the views on science section mark nutley ( talk) 20:46, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure 'removing either one' is such a good idea - taking out the whole of either the 'criticism' section or the 'views on science' section would not simply cut out duplicated info. We've been here before with people trying to remove valid references to criticisms of Booker from this piece and I'm slightly worried we may be heading back to that same territory again now. If there are specific facts that have appeared in two different places then let's focus on those. Which points did you have in mind? 86.178.158.236 ( talk) 08:27, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
86.177.179.15 ( talk) 18:53, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I think that Mark is right and that the article needs further restructuring, along the lines of collapsing the two sections into one -- probably views on science into the crit section, or morphing the two together and renaming it -- "controversial scientific views" (as a pretty crappy intial suggestion). Also, the Monbiot crits towards Booker are so vituperative that they may need to be taken out altogether or toned down. Jprw ( talk) 04:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
"Criticism for views on science" may be an improvement. Jprw ( talk) 04:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
I have:
I think that the article reads a lot better now. Jprw ( talk) 13:43, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
[1] I have removed this as it is as usual giving undue weight to monbiot, if he is the only person to have blogged about this then it is wp:undue mark nutley ( talk) 19:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I confess I am unable to understand MN's assertions of OR, and (as I've explained before) his justification for removing the text is clearly spurious. MN has had problems with sourcing before (is he still on parole for it) so I'd ask him to go and check with one of his usual "mentors" William M. Connolley ( talk) 19:07, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
There are complaints that the original retracted article is no longer available on the Telegraph website. It remains, however, easily available if you google the title. I feel we should not link to republished copies, but those that wants can verify well enough what they actually said. Rd232 talk 07:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone else have a view on whether the section belongs in Career or Criticism? [3] I think it's pretty ridiculous to have it in Criticism, it's not like Pachauri disagreed. A public retraction with legal costs in six figures is a career thing (even if one of the co-authors (that is, North) appears determined to get sued for libel). Rd232 talk 14:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Incidentally, I've just come across this. Were people aware? Rd232 talk 20:56, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
I've revised the article substantially, removing the criticism section, and making various improvements. The asbestos paragraph could probably be reduced a little, but with the many lengthy footnotes it's hard to edit. Rd232 talk 09:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
This joke of an article is, all by itself, compelling evidence that once the anti-science lobby has designated some area as a target, Wikipedia will go right along, thanks to the persistent stream of zombie attackers. All by itself, the fact that a liar and a crank of the first order cannot be pinned down to even the most obvious, provable, and egregious falsehoods is evidence for what's becoming conventional wisdom - that after the first blush of popularity, Wikipedia is no longer crowd-sourcing, it's a propaganda mill, just as Amazon.com reviews are. The main distortion on both is a kind of crank complex that thinks that market fundamentalism and a smattering of some sort of specialized technical knowledge (engineering, meteorology, or even business) can simply hand-wave away scientific reality, as long as it's sufficiently complex. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.136.56 ( talk) 22:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I have reverted the insert quote from the grauniad becuase the actual review does not justify the comment. It is thus a polemic rather than being a fair comment on the book. Peterlewis ( talk) 12:48, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
The reviewer does nothing in his review to justify the bunk comment at all. Theer are actually some better points to be made rather than the wholly trivial and unjustified comment you have inserted. I am thus reverting your revert. Peterlewis ( talk) 10:36, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
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Like certain other articles about prolific journalists this bio relies too much on what Booker himself has said and other primary sources such as what a judge has said. Primary sources do not establish notability of any particular event or opinion, for these we need secondary, reliable sources, hence my tag and also my deletion of material that has not been sourced with secondary sources. Editors who want to return deleted material need to provide secondary sources that establish the notability of the material being returned. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 17:53, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
--- Does this explain the removal of references to Booker's published opinions on evolution and Intelligent Design? 51.6.91.123 ( talk)
--- I too wonder about the current absence of any mention of his documented views on Evolution and Intelligent Design, which did feature in a previous version of this page. 31.125.76.2 ( talk) 19:56, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
--- Just what I was wondering about, too! At least people who read this Talk page will now be aware of his anti-evolution/ID opinions. CatNip48 ( talk) 17:47, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
--- Oh look. Here is a secondary source that gives a brief mention to his stance on evolution: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/jul/04/christopher-booker-obituary
Here's another one: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/may/13/christopher-booker-misleading CatNip48 ( talk) 18:01, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
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I question (A) the notability of this person in a general purpose encyclopedia, and (B) NPOV. Phrases like "published ... to critical acclaim" read like press releases or publicity blurbs and not neutral POV articles. Editing it to read "some critics acclaimed it, and other critics dismissed / criticized it" which would be both more accurate and more neutral still wouldn't get at the question of whether or not Mr. Booker is "notable". For instance, is he a "Published authors, editors and photographers who received multiple independent reviews of or awards for their work" or "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person. (Multiple similar stories describing a single day's news event only count as one coverage.)" or has he "made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field"? -- LQ 16:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not question the notability of the person, given his extensive career and apparent critical status, but I do question whether it is necessary to list every one of his publications. It may be more sensible to detail just the ones he is best known for, for example The Neophiliacs: A Study of the Revolution in English Life In The Fifties and Sixties and The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories. -- Stratman07 ( talk) 04:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I propose reverting the edit which changed the phrase from "false assertion" to "disputed assertion" in the above sentence. There are no reasonable grounds on which Booker's claim that white asbestos is chemically identical to talcum powder could be considered true, so this edit is a watering down of the truth, rather than a clarification. The chemical formula for talc is H2Mg3(SiO3)4 or Mg3Si4O10(OH)2. The chemical formula for chrysotile, the primary ingredient of white asbestos, is Mg3(Si2O5)(OH)4. They are definitively and demonstrably not identical. To say that talc is chemical identical to chrysotile is as inaccurate as saying that Hydrogen Peroxide (H202) is chemically identical to water (H20), a statement which I hope we can all agree is not simply "disputed" but false. 86.163.241.163 ( talk) 21:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
"Defence of the Realm" has repeatedly deleted the entire section on criticisms of Booker's work. Defence of the Realm has claimed that these criticisms are "libelous", but they are merely reports of facts sourced from mainstream publications, including the Guardian newspaper and the UK government's Health and Safety Executive. Unless the user can show that these statements are untrue or defamatory, I can see no basis for removing them. 86.157.92.127 ( talk) 18:48, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
86.159.138.195 ( talk) 20:21, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Please note that, by a decision of the Wikipedia community, this article and others relating to climate change (broadly construed) has been placed under article probation. Editors making disruptive edits may be blocked temporarily from editing the encyclopedia, or subject to other administrative remedies, according to standards that may be higher than elsewhere on Wikipedia. Please see Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation for full information and to review the decision. -- TS 11:56, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm new here, but I am not surprised this article is on probation when such overtly non-neutral/original research material is reinstated without discussion by editors. Even basic copy editing errors [Christopher Booker ad nauseaum, etc.]are reinstated immediately. Jprw ( talk) 12:37, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Jprw, before deleting or watering down content from this article, it would be helpful if you first discussed it here, otherwise this could be seen as vandalism. Just to give one example, and as discussed previously on this page, the claim that white asbestos is "chemically identical to talcum powder" is strictly and literally false, not merely "controversial". The chemical formulae are totally different - more different in fact than the difference between water (H20) and hydrogen peroxide (H202), and there is no scientific controversy around that fact. So it's a false assertion, and describing it as "controversial" simply muddies the waters. Wikipedia aims to report demonstrable facts, not merely produce a woolly summed average of different people's views. Please ensure that you are actually improving the quality of the article, not merely deleting well-referenced content that you dislike...
86.182.26.58 ( talk) 19:10, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
I removed the claim about white asbestos being "chemically identical to talcum powder" because it is original research and in any case far too much detail for a Wikipedia article. There are also other serious (from a Wikipedia standpoint) issues with neutrality, mild personal attacks against the author, WP:CIVIL, WP:POINT, etc.
I find it staggering that you can assume such bad faith against me by using language such as "content that you dislike" and even resort to accusations of vandalism, when all I am doing is trying to bring the article within Wikipedia's guidelines. As I state above, it is therefore of no surprsie that this article is on probabtion. By the way I have had independent verification from Wikipedia that the changes I made in this article were non-problematic. It would also be helpful if you could identify yourself. Jprw ( talk) 09:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
JPRW, I think you may be misunderstanding the wiki rules on 'original research'. Highlighting Booker's scientific claims (which have been widely discussed elsewhere, not least in Monbiot's article), with fully-referenced citations pointing people back to the primary sources, is demonstrably not 'original research'. Deleting such information is therefore vandalism - though it is a welcome step forward that you are now prepared to engage in a discussion about it.
Likewise, giving a factual account of a person's own words cannot in itself constitute a "personal attack" (mild or otherwise) on them. And again, if we're simply reporting facts - even if those facts are not particularly flattering - this is fully consistent with neutrality. In fact, to delete facts simply because a particular editor doesn't like the picture that they paint, is in itself a breach of neutrality... 86.25.255.92 ( talk) 21:48, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
As Booker is to some extent a rather polarising figure one might expect entries in the criticism section to be on the vehement side. Nevertheless, there is no justification in my view for basic Wikipedia guidelines to be so egregiously violated, in particular: WP:BLP; WP:NOR; WP:NPOV; WP:NPA. In this spirit I have removed, now for the third time, inappropriate material from this section. I trust that these changes will not be reverted (as they were twice before – by, I might add, anonymous editors assuming bad faith). If such a reversion does indeed occur I will report the issue to the biographies of living persons noticeboard. Jprw ( talk) 10:14, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
In view of WP:BLP do we not need to be spot on with our sourcing before making "he falsely asserted" claims? If the information is sourced well and reliably I don't have a problem with it. When I first came to the page it read like an attack piece. Also, do you not agree that the following large chunk which I removed constitutes original research:
"Mg3Si4O10(OH)2, while the formula for chrysotile, the primary ingredient of white asbestos, is Mg3(Si2O5)(OH)4. It is worth noting that even if the composition were identical, which it clearly isn't, the actual structure/connectivity is what is significant, a situation well known in chemistry as isomerism at a molecular level and polymorphism (materials science) in the case of non-molecular materials or crystals. What makes chrysotile dangerous is not its composition - silicates are common - but its fibrous structure".
Not to mention far too detailed for a Wikipedia entry? And do you agree with the copy editing changes I made? Best, Jprw ( talk) 13:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
"The small bit of chemistry background there isn't original research. You can source it to any A level chemistry textbook". For a scientist, perhaps, but to a layman it will just go over their heads. It still appears to be unsourced original research in my view. Perhaps a rewritten simplified version, properly sourced, as a compromise? Or perhaps it can in fact be left out altogether? Jprw ( talk) 14:01, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I agree. I think that the criticism section is also perhaps overlong and creates imbalance. Jprw ( talk) 14:48, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that all seems fair. By the way, what about a wording along the following lines: "According to [RELIABLE SOURCE], Booker confused the chemical structure of asbestos and talc".[REFERENCE] Much more reader friendly to the layman. Also, I still have a problem with language like "One of the few things worth writing about Booker is his propensity for making ridiculously false statements on matters of science" -- in a scientific forum this may be acceptable, but to the Wikipedia layman comes across as being at worst an attack, at best the words of someone taking a non-neutral position. I think that we should always be checking the language we use here. Jprw ( talk) 07:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
On the subject of "Criticism" of Booker, I think that the statement "Booker has been described by English writer James Delingpole in The Spectator as doing "the kind of proper, old-school things that journalists hardly ever bother with in this new age of aggregation and flip bloggery: he digs, he makes the calls, he reads the small print, he takes up the cause of the little man and campaigns, he speaks truth to power without fear or favour" is dubious at best. The idea that Delingpole could be a sound and dispassionate critic of Booker is not sensible. Delingpole's opinions on scientific matters are just as dubious as Booker's. Do we agree to delete this statement? Gordoncph ( talk) 21:37, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
I've removed a substantial expansion of the treatment of criticism by George Monbiot. While I think such criticism probably merits coverage, dwelling so much on the comments of a single competitor in the opinion-mongering business is excessive. -- Tasty monster 16:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I should very much like to see a page that summaries this book, the way we have Campbell's Monomyth and the related book The Writer's Journey: Mythic Structure for Writers. I'd consider starting the page myself, but I've already done so on a different wiki and I'm not even finished over there (it is a lengthy book and thus has a lengthy summary). Also, despite the "be bold" policy here, I'm concerned about my ability to be neutral and not to add my own interpretations of the material, because I have been working with the book so long and enjoy it so much (not that I agree with all of it).
Therefore, I request that someone summarize the book The Seven Basic Plots on its own page and stick a link on here. Thank you. Kilyle ( talk) 13:53, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
MN is removing valid material again taht doesn't support his POV William M. Connolley ( talk) 12:23, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
The material is not valid, it is an attack piece on a blog, self revert now or i will again remove it per wp:blp mark nutley ( talk) 12:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I've removed the claim sourced to scienceblogs, which is not appropriate for a BLP. And aside from this particular issue, this BLP needs a lot of work. It's full of coatracks and opinions. Monbiot seems to be mentioned more than Booker himself. ATren ( talk) 13:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
I think someone has mistakenly inserted a "not in citation given" claim within the "Views on Science" section. Just to clarify, here's the contested sentence:
In an article in May 2008, Booker again cited the Hodgson and Darnton paper, claiming that "they concluded that the risk of contracting mesothelioma from white asbestos cement was 'insignificant', while that of lung cancer was 'zero'".
And here's the full quote from the May 2008 article "Farmers face £6bn bill for asbestos clean-up" as of 14/3/10: (link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/3558729/Farmers-face-6bn-bill-for-asbestos-clean-up.html) -
The HSE remains adamant that white asbestos is far too dangerous for the law to be changed. Yet this position was comprehensively contradicted by a major study by the HSE's own statisticians, John Hodgson and Andrew Darnton, published in 2000.
After the most extensive review of the literature on asbestos ever carried out, they concluded that the risk of contracting mesothelioma from white asbestos cement was "insignificant", while that of lung cancer was "zero". It is hardly surprising, then, that the HSE is so reluctant to discuss the science behind that law with the £6 billion price tag.
I will tweak the syntax just to make it 100% clear. 86.180.153.113 ( talk) 20:13, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
In an article in May 2008, Booker again cited the Hodgson and Darnton paper, claiming that 'they concluded that the risk of contracting mesothelioma from white asbestos cement was "insignificant", while that of lung cancer was "zero"' This is not in the ref given Farmers face £6bn bill for asbestos clean-up which is why i put a verification failed tag on it mark nutley ( talk) 20:39, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
==> When I click on the reference (7) and then the link at the bottom of the page, it takes me to the page without a problem - not sure where it is you're clicking? If there's a reference elsewhere on the page that needs updating, surely better just to update it? This weblink appears to work fine: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/3558729/Farmers-face-6bn-bill-for-asbestos-clean-up.html 86.180.153.113 ( talk) 20:52, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Jprw ( talk) 13:43, 7 April 2010 (UTC)== Views on science & Criticism ==
These are essentially the same, booker says this, monbiot says this. It is just a repeat of the same stuff in two sections. I propose removing either one or removing all the crits which are repeated from the views on science section mark nutley ( talk) 20:46, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure 'removing either one' is such a good idea - taking out the whole of either the 'criticism' section or the 'views on science' section would not simply cut out duplicated info. We've been here before with people trying to remove valid references to criticisms of Booker from this piece and I'm slightly worried we may be heading back to that same territory again now. If there are specific facts that have appeared in two different places then let's focus on those. Which points did you have in mind? 86.178.158.236 ( talk) 08:27, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
86.177.179.15 ( talk) 18:53, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
I think that Mark is right and that the article needs further restructuring, along the lines of collapsing the two sections into one -- probably views on science into the crit section, or morphing the two together and renaming it -- "controversial scientific views" (as a pretty crappy intial suggestion). Also, the Monbiot crits towards Booker are so vituperative that they may need to be taken out altogether or toned down. Jprw ( talk) 04:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
"Criticism for views on science" may be an improvement. Jprw ( talk) 04:03, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
I have:
I think that the article reads a lot better now. Jprw ( talk) 13:43, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
[1] I have removed this as it is as usual giving undue weight to monbiot, if he is the only person to have blogged about this then it is wp:undue mark nutley ( talk) 19:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I confess I am unable to understand MN's assertions of OR, and (as I've explained before) his justification for removing the text is clearly spurious. MN has had problems with sourcing before (is he still on parole for it) so I'd ask him to go and check with one of his usual "mentors" William M. Connolley ( talk) 19:07, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
There are complaints that the original retracted article is no longer available on the Telegraph website. It remains, however, easily available if you google the title. I feel we should not link to republished copies, but those that wants can verify well enough what they actually said. Rd232 talk 07:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone else have a view on whether the section belongs in Career or Criticism? [3] I think it's pretty ridiculous to have it in Criticism, it's not like Pachauri disagreed. A public retraction with legal costs in six figures is a career thing (even if one of the co-authors (that is, North) appears determined to get sued for libel). Rd232 talk 14:16, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Incidentally, I've just come across this. Were people aware? Rd232 talk 20:56, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
I've revised the article substantially, removing the criticism section, and making various improvements. The asbestos paragraph could probably be reduced a little, but with the many lengthy footnotes it's hard to edit. Rd232 talk 09:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
This joke of an article is, all by itself, compelling evidence that once the anti-science lobby has designated some area as a target, Wikipedia will go right along, thanks to the persistent stream of zombie attackers. All by itself, the fact that a liar and a crank of the first order cannot be pinned down to even the most obvious, provable, and egregious falsehoods is evidence for what's becoming conventional wisdom - that after the first blush of popularity, Wikipedia is no longer crowd-sourcing, it's a propaganda mill, just as Amazon.com reviews are. The main distortion on both is a kind of crank complex that thinks that market fundamentalism and a smattering of some sort of specialized technical knowledge (engineering, meteorology, or even business) can simply hand-wave away scientific reality, as long as it's sufficiently complex. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.136.56 ( talk) 22:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I have reverted the insert quote from the grauniad becuase the actual review does not justify the comment. It is thus a polemic rather than being a fair comment on the book. Peterlewis ( talk) 12:48, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
The reviewer does nothing in his review to justify the bunk comment at all. Theer are actually some better points to be made rather than the wholly trivial and unjustified comment you have inserted. I am thus reverting your revert. Peterlewis ( talk) 10:36, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Section = 109 BLP articles labelled "Climate Change Deniers" all at once. This article was placed in a "climate change deniers" category. After discussion on
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Like certain other articles about prolific journalists this bio relies too much on what Booker himself has said and other primary sources such as what a judge has said. Primary sources do not establish notability of any particular event or opinion, for these we need secondary, reliable sources, hence my tag and also my deletion of material that has not been sourced with secondary sources. Editors who want to return deleted material need to provide secondary sources that establish the notability of the material being returned. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 17:53, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
--- Does this explain the removal of references to Booker's published opinions on evolution and Intelligent Design? 51.6.91.123 ( talk)
--- I too wonder about the current absence of any mention of his documented views on Evolution and Intelligent Design, which did feature in a previous version of this page. 31.125.76.2 ( talk) 19:56, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
--- Just what I was wondering about, too! At least people who read this Talk page will now be aware of his anti-evolution/ID opinions. CatNip48 ( talk) 17:47, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
--- Oh look. Here is a secondary source that gives a brief mention to his stance on evolution: https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/jul/04/christopher-booker-obituary
Here's another one: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/may/13/christopher-booker-misleading CatNip48 ( talk) 18:01, 13 December 2022 (UTC)