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I think it's hardly 'absurd' to use Indian numbers – this is an India-related article. In a recent discussion on the Indian wikipedians' notice-board, there seemed to be a consensus that it was best to cite figures in lakhs and crores, but to mention the corresponding figure in millions in parentheses. Do feel free to add more millions figures in parentheses if you feel the article needs them. QuartierLatin1968 14:40, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What? Why on earth should we use a number system that nobody outside India understands? What purpose is served by this?
john
k 15:23, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Let me add again, Huh? The normal number system is understood by everybody likely to be reading wikipedia. Wikipedia should be for the benefit of users, not the convenience of editors (all of whom are clearly aware of the normal numbering system, anyway). john k 15:24, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm opening a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). john k 15:29, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If I may add, it's just a chance for editors to flex their know-it-all muscle, show everybody how smart they are... GG98
(
GuelphGryphon98)
07:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Um... Yeah, so, I'm gonna go ahead and modify "tradition of more than 2000 years" in re Syrian Christians, because that would mean the community was founded when Christ was, at the oldest, 6 years old.. And don't bitch to me about the actual year of Christ's birth because I'll just ignore you (you pretentious wad, whoever you are). —Preceding unsigned comment added by GuelphGryphon98 ( talk • contribs) 07:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Nearly 2000 years would be much better! Witnessforpeace 10:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
The article should address the difficulties missionaries faced, and still face, in attempting to convert Hindus to Christianity: namely that many will readily accept Christ, but not give up the other gods -- it's common to see, in many "Christian" households, a shrine with a depiction of Jesus, but also various other Hindu gods. Badagnani 06:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Greetings in the name of Christ Jesus. I think it would be a great idea to make mention on Roman Urdu on this page or a related one as it is used by many Indian Christians. Does anyone else think this would be plausible? I added a link to the Roman Urdu article on the See Also section for now. Thanks. Jdas07 20:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Not all Indians who converted to Christianity in India were Hindu. Many Indians in Kerala were Jews. Mochamalu 22:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Why does the article contain a disclaimer indicating it's suspected of being a hoax? Tom e r talk 12:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The hoax is in the implicit claim that this has anything to do with Christianity (since it is written in the Christianity in India article). This was put there by a group Islamist editors and their socks as a revenge for their tendentious edits to other articles which got reverted by legitimate wikipedians (this is why the article is locked presently) and it will be removed once the article is unlocked. This section belongs in articles on Indian communalism, not in an article on religion. Rumpelstiltskin223 21:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The hoax tag should be taken out and replaced with an "accuracy" or "disputed" tag, as the hoax tag causes the whole article to be categorized as a hoax. Tubezone 19:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
What are the disputes, who's involved, and how do the involved parties intend to move forward? Tom e r talk 21:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Please propose versions of the disputed section here. Tom e r talk 06:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The following are my suggested changes to the Hindu Christian Conflict section.
The Government of the state of Tripura has uncovered evidence to support the assertion that the
Baptist Church of Tripura has been supporting the terrorist group
National Liberation Front of Tripura, a violent separatist group that has massacred thousands of Hindus in the region
citation needed that has banned Hindu festivals by force .
[1]
The Baptist Church of Tripura was initially set up by missionaries from New Zealand in the 1940s. Despite their efforts, even until the 1980s, only a few thousand people in Tripura had converted to Christianity.
In the aftermath of one of the worst ethnic riots, the NLFT was born in 1989—allegedly with the help of the Baptist Church. Since then, the NLFT has been advancing its cause through armed rebellion [2].
I could not verify the following paragraph: The Hindu Nationalist Sangh Parivar has been at odds with Christians in India
citation needed. Evangelical Christians in central and eastern India were recovering from injuries Wednesday, December 27, 2006 after Hindu Nationalists attacked them for singing Christmas carols
citation needed, Christian leaders said Pastor Phillip Jagdalla of the Jehovah Pentecostal Church in Chhattisgarh's Raipur area was accused of distributing toffee (Candy) to Sunday school students and therefore "was badly beaten" up by police, the group claimed. Evangelism effectively outlawed in Tamil Nadu state
[1].
I could not verify the following paragraph:Many Christians in India regard anti-conversion laws passed by some states in India as a persecution of their religion. Although the same christian missionaries themselves asked for a similar legislation in light of
Bnei Menashe controversy.
Several states in India controlled by the Hindu nationalist party, such as Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Tamil Nadu, have passed laws prohibiting conversion. [3]
I could not verify the following information:In October
2002, governor of
Tamil Nadu issued an ordinance aimed at preventing people from converting to
Christianity, on the grounds that such conversions occur due to fraud. The accused may be sentenced to up to three years in jail if convicted of such a crime. It should be noted that the majority of instances of persecutions of Christians in India do not involve the native
Saint Thomas Christians, but rather Latin Rite
Roman Catholics and
Protestants. This ordinance was reportedly later repealed.
I could not verify the following paragraph: In July, 2006, Madhya Pradesh government passed legislation requiring people who desire to convert to a different religion to provide the government with one-month's notice, or face fines and penalties.
→ James Kidd ( contr/ talk/ email) 09:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The removed portion Many Christians in India regard anti-conversion laws passed by some states in India as a persecution of their religion. Although the same christian missionaries themselves asked for a similar legislation in light of Bnei Menashe controversy. is, in my experience, true...but trying to source how "many Christians ... regard ... laws" is pretty difficult, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is trying to determine how many "many" really is. It is also true that the greatest opposition in the Bnei Menashe saga has been mounted by Christians who, rationally or not, apparently fearing the possibility of losing their fresh lot of converts, petitioned the Government to step in, mischeivously mischaracterizing conversion to Judaism as "proselytizing". This is detailed in several letters written by leaders of the Bnei Menashe to both the Indian and Israeli governments, some of which can be found online. I know of one off-hand, posted on kulanu's website. Tom e r talk 08:14, 10 January 2007 (UTC) P.S., I tried to get the link to the letter I'm thinking of, but Kulanu's site seems to be experiencing the hiccoughs this evening... I've gotta get to bed...if nobody finds the link by tomorrow, I'll try again. Tom e r talk 08:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Ah. Here we go. Enjoy. :-) Tom e r talk 06:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
[6], [7], [8]. If there is no objection on creating a section on Indian influence on Christianity and talk about the amalgamation/hybid of philosophies of Indian Religions with Christianity and reduce the weightage given to conflicts (I am not keen on mentioning them, but will eventually do since it seems some editors will opose its removal). Views on it are welcome. Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε †αLҝ 21:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The section is far too long, in violation of WP:UNDUE; it also suffers from WP:RECENTISM; although parts of it are referenced, others are not, and the references are not of uniform quality. I have cut it down in size, though not as much as I should. If anyone wants to spin it out into a separate article, as is due a notable subject, they are welcome to do so. However, I do not see the need for such a long section here. Relata refero ( talk) 12:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is the newest version, please feel free to add your comments and ideas
Roman Catholics Latin Rite 13,217,160 , Roman Catholic Syro-Malabar Church 3,674,115 , Roman Catholic Syro-Malankara Church 408,725 = total number of Roman Catholics 17.3 million members
There is not duplication these are three different enteties of Roman Catholic Church Pakhomovru ( talk) 10:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Can you please explain why you are blanket-reverting changes to the article ( diff) and deleting other user's comments from this talk-page ( my comments, Wikiality's comments) ? Abecedare ( talk) 17:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
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I have updated data and numbers in this part based on the wikipedia source statistics, eveything is fair and clear. Please add your comments or questions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pakhomovru ( talk • contribs) 16:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
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There are quite a few pictures of Churches in the article. Wouldn't be a better idea to make a collage of a few, rather than having them placed all over. There seems to be no best place to keep them, since it all depends on the size of your system screen. I can't think of anything better than making a collage. If we could make a list of prominent Churches in India then we can just make one or a couple of collages for this article. Cheers Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 20:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
The total number of Christians in India is at least 38,200,400, or 3.4% of the population, this comes from the break down of the major christian churches. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pakhomovru ( talk • contribs) 16:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
A link to the Goa Inquisition page was deleted by Tinu Cherian, included two lines which referenced published sources as "vandalism". Tinu Cherian left a message for me, asking not to include my "personal opinion." I hardly realized that the Goa Inquisition was my personal opinion. Vandalism is a pretty serious charge. Puck42 ( talk) 16:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
(See comments in prior section also) I am well aware of WP:UNDUE. However I disagree with the gang-up undos to edit out anything that balances the slant of this article. Given the inability of both these people to also discuss specific points of contention while removing edits I will have no option but to dispute the neutrality of the article. Coming to the specific points. Please explain:
And I would like to remind the eminent editors on this page of a simple Wikipedia courtesy to avoid WP:EDITWAR, that is, for combative editors to think twice before deleting text someone has painstakingly entered and WP:Revert only when necessary. It is better to improve rather than delete. Alas this simple courtesy has not been shown to a single edit that goes contrary to the existing I have made in an attempt to improve and balance this page. I am restoring my original edits. Please feel free to improve these. If you do a revert again, without any discussion of contents, we will need to mark this as a dispute and also dispute the neutrality of this article. I would suggest you review the guidelines on WP:NPOV Puck42 ( talk) 22:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
While it may not be unreasonable to say that the presence of St. Thomas in South India is disputed, one cannot say that the story is (a) a myth or (b) the story was propagated by missionaries to convert people to christianity. You need to present Reliable Sources that back up the disputed nature of the story. The missionary part will always be, at best, unverifiable original research. -- Regents Park ( paddle with the ducks) 02:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
.- Bharatveer ( talk) 05:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Noticed that there is no section on contemporary Christianity, other than demographics. It would be good to add a reference to the new Bible that has just been released, that includes references to Indian scriptures. Father Bede Griffith's work is also notable. Perhaps these can come in the acculturation section. Another major contemporary development is the Joshua Project, a largely American Funded push for the conversion of India by aggressive Protestant organizations. Puck42 ( talk) 16:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Now that we have done enough chitchat, i thought I would bring up some WP:RS:
In 1867 it was ordered that on the recommendations of the first provincial inquisition held at Goa (Goa Inquisition) no Christians should keep infidel servants, that the public worship of both Hindus and Muslims should cease, that all heathen residents should attend every alternate Sunday to hear a sermon on the benefits of the Christianity and that children of left orphas should be brought up in Christian faith...Under the pressures of these rules and the unwearing persuasion of the religion, Goa became a city of Christians. -- Goa, Daman, and Diu (India) by R. N. Saksena [24]
It is not proposed here to mention the details of the Goa Inquisition. Suffice it to say that in the name of the religion of peace and love, this tribunal practised cruelties to the extent that every word of theirs was a sentence to death. Their harassment to both Hindus and Christians, while enforcing their laws, drove many of them to migrate to the neighboring territories. Priolkar, the famous historian, if of the opinion that "thousands of Konkani-speaking families, both Hindus and Christians, who are found scattered in various centers of Mysore, Kerala, and Madras today, are the descendants of these emigrants -- Goa, Daman, and Diu (India) by R. N. Saksena [25]
The Inquisition gained momentum and went on to ban Indian musical instruments, the dhoti - the Indian loincloth favored by men, and the chewing of betel leaves - a traditional Indian habit. Hundreds of Hindu temples were either destroyed or forcibly converted into Christian churches. Thousands of Hindu texts were burned with a view to ensuring the supremacy of Roman Catholic texts. -- The Rozabal Line by Shawn Haigins [26]
The priests of the Goan Inquisition set up headquaters in the former sultan's palace. They immediately outlawed Hinduism. Sacred Hindu texts were burned, Hindu music, clothing, and foods were banned. Hindu marriage was outlawed. Violaters were burned at the stake in groups in a ceremony known as auto-da-fe, "act of faith." The strictures of the Inquisition spanned 230 pages. Hindus who confessed their crimes were granted strangulation before they were burned. So many adults were killed that orphans abounded on the Konkan Coast. The Catholic Church raised these children Catholic... African slaves were imported to the colony. Led in gangs first by Jesuits, and later by Franciscans, the slaves descended on villages, capturing Hindus, rubbing raw pork in their mouths, thereby rendering the people outcasts from their own religion. The priests conducted a mass baptism of these untouchables on January 25 of each year, the Feast of the Conversion of St. Paul. -- The Konkans by Tony D'Souza [27]
Hope this settles it. 67.169.0.250 ( talk) 20:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
the goa acquisition is a important part of christianity in india and most would agree. this wikipedia article is itself too small to provide reasonable detail of christianity in india. i think information is deliberately being ignored based on personal POV. deepak, i think it's you whose acting like a brat. goa inquisition has everything to do with christian history in india. stop taking things personal and do what is meant. 117.98.83.197 ( talk)yet_another_hindu_infidel —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the sentence The states of
Kerala and
Tamil Nadu in
South India and
Arunachal Pradesh in
North-East India account for 60% of India's total Christian population.
The reason is the Lead should never contain contentious claims which are uncited. People can readd it in the lead once it is sourced. Moved it to Demographics section. Regards,
Kensplanet (
talk)
08:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Can the discussion below be taken to one of the user's talk pages please? Thanks Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 11:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Extended discussion |
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The following is a discussion that has been placed in a collapse box for improved usability. |
- Bharatveer ( talk) 08:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
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The above is an extended discussion that has been collapsed for improved usability. |
The following statement does not have any reference and hence an unsubstantiated allegation The Government of the state of Tripura has claimed that it has evidence that the Baptist Church of Tripura has been supporting the terrorist group National Liberation Front of Tripura
I am going to remove this statement. If you have any object, let me know by tomorrow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Indiancrusader ( talk • contribs) 03:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I propose the following changes to the article:
Any suggestions/comments/oppositions etc are welcome-- Deepak D'Souza 05:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
See if these help too. Cheers Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 11:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
-anonymous user. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.45.122 ( talk) 07:14, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
I am adding an external link to "Non institutional Christians in India" to show that there exists also a church in Inida which contrasts with the mainstream and even different protestant movements. A topic like christianity should give the reader the possibility to get to know about not only large organizations but to get to know a comprehensive picture. -- Nikil44 ( talk) 06:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems like this article has become a gallery for church images. May I remind that this article is "Christianity in India", not "Churches in India". Every single user insists on putting an image of a church which represents his/her region, sect or group. We only need 2-3images. Only those churches which can claim to be important at the India level, and not at district or state level. The images should be representative of some aspect of Indian Christianity in terms of historical importance deserve to be here. So can wee have some consensus about this? -- Deepak D'Souza 04:19, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
The total number of Christians in India is at least 38,200,400, or 3.4% of the population.
Majority of Indian Christians are Roman Catholics 17.3 million members [28], including 408,725 members of the Roman Catholic Syro-Malankara Church [29] and 3,674,115 of the Roman Catholic Syro-Malabar Church [30]. In January 1993 the Syro-Malabar Church and in February 2005 Syro-Malankara Church were raised to the status of major archiepiscopal churches by Pope John Paul II. The Syro-Malabar Church is the second largest among 22 Eastern Catholic Churches who accept the pope ( Bishop of Rome) as the "visible head of the whole church".
Most Protestant denominations are represented in India, as a result of missionary activities throughout the country. The largest Protestant denomination in the country is the Church of South India, since 1947 a union of Presbyterian, Reformed, Congregational, Methodist, and Anglican congregations with approximately 3.8 million members [31]. A similar Church of North India had 1.25 million members [32]. (These churches are in full communion with the Anglican Communion.) The Mar Thoma Church has 900,000 members [33], and derives from the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, which numbers 2 million [34] and is in communion with the Anglicans, but not a full member. In 1961, the evangelical wing of the church came out of Mar Thoma Church and formed the St. Thomas Evangelical Church of India which has 10,000 members [35]. Syrian Orthodox Church of Malabar rites 2,200,000 members [36], respectively. There were about 1,267,786 million Lutherans [37], 648,000 Methodists [38], and 1,850,000 Baptists [39] . Pentecostalism, another denomination of Protestantism, is also a rapidly growing religion in India. It is spreading greatly in northern India and the southwest area, such as Kerala. The major Pentecostal churches in India are the Assemblies of God, India Pentecostal Church of God (IPC) with 900,000 members. [40] New Apostolic Church founded in 1969, with total adherents of 1,448,209. [41] The New Life Fellowship (founded in 1968) now has approximately 480,000 adherents, and the Manna Full Gospel churches and ministries (founded in 1968 with connections to Portugal) has 275,000. [42] Evangelical Church of India now has over 680 churches with a 250,000 community. [43] Another prominent group is the Brethrens. They are known in different names Plymouth Brethren, Indian Brethren, Kerala brethren. Presbyterian Church of India has 823,456 members. [44] Nagaland Baptist Church Council has 307,949 members. [45]
During the twentieth century, the fastest growing Christian communities have been located in the northeast, among the Khasis, Mizos, Nagas, and other hill tribes. Today Christians are most prevalent in the northeast, and in the southwestern states of Kerala and Goa. Indian Christians have contributed significantly to and are well represented in various spheres of national life. They are currently chief ministers of the states like Andhra Pradesh, Nagaland, Mizoram, and Meghalaya, and they were chief ministers earlier of Kerala, Manipur, Goa, and Chattisgarh. In the powerful election committee of the ruling Indian National Congress party, they take four out of twenty places.
The purchasing power of the Christian community in India was estimated at about $15 billion in 2005 (or 2 per cent of the national total).
Church Name | Population |
---|---|
Roman Catholics Latin Rite [46] | 13,217,160 |
Roman Catholic Syro-Malabar Church [47] | 3,674,115 |
Roman Catholic Syro-Malankara Church [48] | 408,725 |
Church of South India [49] | 3,800,000 |
New Apostolic Church [50] | 1,448,209 |
Church of North India [51] | 1,250,000 |
Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church [52] | 2,500,000 |
Mar Thoma Church [53] | 900,000 |
Syrian Orthodox Church of Malabar [54] | 2,200,000 |
Lutherans [55] | 1,267,786 |
Methodists [56] | 648,000 |
Baptists [57] | 1,850,000 |
India Pentecostal Church of God [58] | 900,000 |
Indian Brethren [59] | 1,000,000 |
St. Thomas Evangelical Church [60] | 1,000,000 |
Presbyterian Church of India [61] | 823,456 |
New Life Fellowship [62] | 480,000 |
Nagaland Baptist Church Council [63] | 307,949 |
Manna Full Gospel [64] | 275,000 |
Evangelical Church [65] | 250,000 |
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Pakhomovru ( talk • contribs) 13:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
As we have discussed before, there is no "proof", nor can there be, that St. Thomas ever came to Karala. The words "it is commonly believed that..." can be used.
One major reason is that there is no written record anywhere. The second is that we have to fall back on western understanding of India, which was poor in the Dark Ages. The term "India" referred to what is now Pakistan. Europeans did not understand the geography of the subcontinent. Nor did the inhabitants themselves call themselves by a name that included the entire subcontinent. They were under different kingdoms.
There are multiple graves, far too many, of St. Thomas, which is another problem since he can't be buried in more than one or two of them (maybe parts got moved for religious reasons). But he has 6-8 graves or so in several countries. So no help there.
I think most editors will allow anyone their fantasy if they precede it with the true statement, "It is believed.." or some qualifier. But since it can't be proved or properly footnoted with a WP:RELY reference, it really shouldn't be stated as fact.
If the revert war continues, I will ask for the article to be locked until we straighten this out. Student7 ( talk) 00:37, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Article states that the first Jewish migration to India followed the destruction of the First Temple (properly dated to sixth century BCE). But if you follow link to article on Cochin Jews, it states that they emigrated following the destruction of "the Temple" around 70 CE, which would refer to the Second Temple. I then sought a non-WIkipedia source and found that JewishEnclopedia.com traced the earliest evidence of a Jewish presence in India to around 750.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=558&letter=C —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edinyuma ( talk • contribs) 04:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}}
Please remove semi-protection for Christianity in India. It not only contains several grammatical errors but only many misleading factual errors. Thank you.
Sikolia07 ( talk) 23:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
A user has referred to Dalit Christians as untouchables in the first section, which I think is very demeaning to Dalits and Christians in general in this age and time. Would someone be polite enough to edit that. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kariappa07 ( talk • contribs) 17:37, 26 March 2010 (UTC) -- Kariappa07 ( talk) 17:39, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I got this comment on my talk page: -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 21:16, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
About the christianity in India page, we should not put wild claims like St. Thomas converted Kings and tribes of North India to Christianity based on no claims. In fact in Muslims of South Asia and Middle-east, there is a popular belief that ENGLAND's ruler had converted to Islam during 7th century. Fables like St. Thomas Acts are not verified and accepted by most Christians. If you visit St. Thomas article, you will see that he has been linked with one or another king from Russia to India throughout middle-east. Also, the article itself has links to disprove these fables
Eastern Christian writings state that Christianity was introduced to India by Thomas the Apostle, who visited Muziris in Kerala in 52 CE to proselytize amongst Kerala's Jewish settlements; however this is widely disputed due to lack of credible historical evidence. [66] [67] [68] I hope you uphold the standards of wikipedia. thanks
note: such wild claims cause much pain to non-Christians of India. Please dont play with our history and culture. We should learn to respect.
— —Preceding unsigned comment added by Varanwal ( talk • contribs) 26 April 2010 20:04 (UTC), User talk:Eraserhead1
Under the Early Christianity in India section, I would like to dismbig St. Thomas (in the caption of the photo of Mar Thoma Church) to point to Thomas the Apostle and not the disambig page Saint Thomas. Thank you
JustAGal ( talk) 20:48, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Can you guys discuss this and not edit war over it? Thanks. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 10:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, my main rationale for including info on dalit christians is that Christianity is a religion that has come and spread in India, and therefore it is important to note who mainly accepted Christianity. I see that the demographic section chickens out from acknowledging Caste system among Indian Christians. We do not have different articles in Wikipedia like "Christianity in India" and "Christians in India"; and therefore in this context the distinction between "demographics of Christians" and "demographics of Christianity" is but a false dichotomy. Moreover, strictly speaking "Dalit" or "Dalit christians" for that matter are not a single ethnic group but rather an umbrella term. The article also have no problem mentioning the Khasis, Mizos, and the Nagas, but no space for dalit Christians. Requesting comments from all. Thanks. Arjun[[User talk:|024]] 14:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I have my doubts about the accuracy of the source; but that is another issue altogether. My point is that ethnicity or caste based is unnecessary in an article about the religion. This article should discuss about the relegion , not about the ethnic communites. It will be relvant in: Christians in India but not here. This article should only contain demographic info about the Christain sects in India. -- Deepak D'Souza ( talk) 08:43, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
I support the inclusion of Dalit Christian Demographic data, (if sourced from a RS). The caste system was an important factor for conversions and there are enough issues in present day about Dalit Christians to warrant a small inclusion in the Demographics section. Whether the govt or church sanction it or not is a moot point. the practice of which is clearly extinct in urban Christian communities and the vast majority of Indian Christians are urban dwellers - this is a personal opinion. Where i come from, the "Dalit Christian" phenomenon clearly exists.-- Sodabottle ( talk) 11:53, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
-- Deepak D'Souza ( talk) 19:33, 21 May 2010 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Christianity_in_India&action=edit§ion=30
I notice that an IP editor is using an alleged consensus on this page as the reason for deleting all mention of numbers for Dalit Christians (even in other articles specifically about Dalits), as well as some large-scale deletion of blocks of text about Dalits. I would suggest:
The 70-80% figures are manipulated for political purposes. -- 75.134.157.143 ( talk) 08:26, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Vatican never conducted a survey in India and hence we cannot go by what the Vatican uses. The origins of these pumped up percentages lie in colonial days when Hindu fundamentalists tried to portray Indian Christianity as something that spread through coercion. Fundamentalists still use these "figures" today to further their cause of anti-conversion laws stating that only disadvantaged classes adopt Christianity and that Christian missionaries woo them into converting to Christianity thereby dismissing all conversions as dubious or forced conversions. The NSSO figures have shown that is not the case.-- 75.134.157.143 ( talk) 01:57, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Just because something is frequently quoted doesn't mean that it is the gospel truth. Something that is not proven yet commonly believed is called a myth in the English language. And in reference to your comment "if such an enormous error had been made, it would have been commented on in the debate on the issue." Yes ofcourse, it has been mentioned more than once in this debate. Please refer to the contributions of user Deepak. As for you comment "books and newspaper reports as cited are (barely) adequate references per Wikipedia policy."- It applies to your own stand on including the 70% figure which is based simply on books and newspapers with no citations or offical sources.-- 75.134.157.143 ( talk) 04:14, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Well a lot has been said and done in this discussion. Sorry for re-starting this a bit late; I was busy. I will ennumerte my concerns in the hope of facilitate discussion:
-- Deepak D'Souza ( talk) 08:14, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
I think it's hardly 'absurd' to use Indian numbers – this is an India-related article. In a recent discussion on the Indian wikipedians' notice-board, there seemed to be a consensus that it was best to cite figures in lakhs and crores, but to mention the corresponding figure in millions in parentheses. Do feel free to add more millions figures in parentheses if you feel the article needs them. QuartierLatin1968 14:40, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What? Why on earth should we use a number system that nobody outside India understands? What purpose is served by this?
john
k 15:23, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Let me add again, Huh? The normal number system is understood by everybody likely to be reading wikipedia. Wikipedia should be for the benefit of users, not the convenience of editors (all of whom are clearly aware of the normal numbering system, anyway). john k 15:24, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm opening a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). john k 15:29, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If I may add, it's just a chance for editors to flex their know-it-all muscle, show everybody how smart they are... GG98
(
GuelphGryphon98)
07:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Um... Yeah, so, I'm gonna go ahead and modify "tradition of more than 2000 years" in re Syrian Christians, because that would mean the community was founded when Christ was, at the oldest, 6 years old.. And don't bitch to me about the actual year of Christ's birth because I'll just ignore you (you pretentious wad, whoever you are). —Preceding unsigned comment added by GuelphGryphon98 ( talk • contribs) 07:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Nearly 2000 years would be much better! Witnessforpeace 10:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
The article should address the difficulties missionaries faced, and still face, in attempting to convert Hindus to Christianity: namely that many will readily accept Christ, but not give up the other gods -- it's common to see, in many "Christian" households, a shrine with a depiction of Jesus, but also various other Hindu gods. Badagnani 06:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Greetings in the name of Christ Jesus. I think it would be a great idea to make mention on Roman Urdu on this page or a related one as it is used by many Indian Christians. Does anyone else think this would be plausible? I added a link to the Roman Urdu article on the See Also section for now. Thanks. Jdas07 20:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Not all Indians who converted to Christianity in India were Hindu. Many Indians in Kerala were Jews. Mochamalu 22:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Why does the article contain a disclaimer indicating it's suspected of being a hoax? Tom e r talk 12:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The hoax is in the implicit claim that this has anything to do with Christianity (since it is written in the Christianity in India article). This was put there by a group Islamist editors and their socks as a revenge for their tendentious edits to other articles which got reverted by legitimate wikipedians (this is why the article is locked presently) and it will be removed once the article is unlocked. This section belongs in articles on Indian communalism, not in an article on religion. Rumpelstiltskin223 21:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The hoax tag should be taken out and replaced with an "accuracy" or "disputed" tag, as the hoax tag causes the whole article to be categorized as a hoax. Tubezone 19:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
What are the disputes, who's involved, and how do the involved parties intend to move forward? Tom e r talk 21:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Please propose versions of the disputed section here. Tom e r talk 06:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The following are my suggested changes to the Hindu Christian Conflict section.
The Government of the state of Tripura has uncovered evidence to support the assertion that the
Baptist Church of Tripura has been supporting the terrorist group
National Liberation Front of Tripura, a violent separatist group that has massacred thousands of Hindus in the region
citation needed that has banned Hindu festivals by force .
[1]
The Baptist Church of Tripura was initially set up by missionaries from New Zealand in the 1940s. Despite their efforts, even until the 1980s, only a few thousand people in Tripura had converted to Christianity.
In the aftermath of one of the worst ethnic riots, the NLFT was born in 1989—allegedly with the help of the Baptist Church. Since then, the NLFT has been advancing its cause through armed rebellion [2].
I could not verify the following paragraph: The Hindu Nationalist Sangh Parivar has been at odds with Christians in India
citation needed. Evangelical Christians in central and eastern India were recovering from injuries Wednesday, December 27, 2006 after Hindu Nationalists attacked them for singing Christmas carols
citation needed, Christian leaders said Pastor Phillip Jagdalla of the Jehovah Pentecostal Church in Chhattisgarh's Raipur area was accused of distributing toffee (Candy) to Sunday school students and therefore "was badly beaten" up by police, the group claimed. Evangelism effectively outlawed in Tamil Nadu state
[1].
I could not verify the following paragraph:Many Christians in India regard anti-conversion laws passed by some states in India as a persecution of their religion. Although the same christian missionaries themselves asked for a similar legislation in light of
Bnei Menashe controversy.
Several states in India controlled by the Hindu nationalist party, such as Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Tamil Nadu, have passed laws prohibiting conversion. [3]
I could not verify the following information:In October
2002, governor of
Tamil Nadu issued an ordinance aimed at preventing people from converting to
Christianity, on the grounds that such conversions occur due to fraud. The accused may be sentenced to up to three years in jail if convicted of such a crime. It should be noted that the majority of instances of persecutions of Christians in India do not involve the native
Saint Thomas Christians, but rather Latin Rite
Roman Catholics and
Protestants. This ordinance was reportedly later repealed.
I could not verify the following paragraph: In July, 2006, Madhya Pradesh government passed legislation requiring people who desire to convert to a different religion to provide the government with one-month's notice, or face fines and penalties.
→ James Kidd ( contr/ talk/ email) 09:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
The removed portion Many Christians in India regard anti-conversion laws passed by some states in India as a persecution of their religion. Although the same christian missionaries themselves asked for a similar legislation in light of Bnei Menashe controversy. is, in my experience, true...but trying to source how "many Christians ... regard ... laws" is pretty difficult, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is trying to determine how many "many" really is. It is also true that the greatest opposition in the Bnei Menashe saga has been mounted by Christians who, rationally or not, apparently fearing the possibility of losing their fresh lot of converts, petitioned the Government to step in, mischeivously mischaracterizing conversion to Judaism as "proselytizing". This is detailed in several letters written by leaders of the Bnei Menashe to both the Indian and Israeli governments, some of which can be found online. I know of one off-hand, posted on kulanu's website. Tom e r talk 08:14, 10 January 2007 (UTC) P.S., I tried to get the link to the letter I'm thinking of, but Kulanu's site seems to be experiencing the hiccoughs this evening... I've gotta get to bed...if nobody finds the link by tomorrow, I'll try again. Tom e r talk 08:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Ah. Here we go. Enjoy. :-) Tom e r talk 06:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
[6], [7], [8]. If there is no objection on creating a section on Indian influence on Christianity and talk about the amalgamation/hybid of philosophies of Indian Religions with Christianity and reduce the weightage given to conflicts (I am not keen on mentioning them, but will eventually do since it seems some editors will opose its removal). Views on it are welcome. Cheers ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε †αLҝ 21:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The section is far too long, in violation of WP:UNDUE; it also suffers from WP:RECENTISM; although parts of it are referenced, others are not, and the references are not of uniform quality. I have cut it down in size, though not as much as I should. If anyone wants to spin it out into a separate article, as is due a notable subject, they are welcome to do so. However, I do not see the need for such a long section here. Relata refero ( talk) 12:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Here is the newest version, please feel free to add your comments and ideas
Roman Catholics Latin Rite 13,217,160 , Roman Catholic Syro-Malabar Church 3,674,115 , Roman Catholic Syro-Malankara Church 408,725 = total number of Roman Catholics 17.3 million members
There is not duplication these are three different enteties of Roman Catholic Church Pakhomovru ( talk) 10:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Can you please explain why you are blanket-reverting changes to the article ( diff) and deleting other user's comments from this talk-page ( my comments, Wikiality's comments) ? Abecedare ( talk) 17:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Expand to see some of deleted content | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I have updated data and numbers in this part based on the wikipedia source statistics, eveything is fair and clear. Please add your comments or questions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pakhomovru ( talk • contribs) 16:50, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
|
There are quite a few pictures of Churches in the article. Wouldn't be a better idea to make a collage of a few, rather than having them placed all over. There seems to be no best place to keep them, since it all depends on the size of your system screen. I can't think of anything better than making a collage. If we could make a list of prominent Churches in India then we can just make one or a couple of collages for this article. Cheers Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 20:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
The total number of Christians in India is at least 38,200,400, or 3.4% of the population, this comes from the break down of the major christian churches. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pakhomovru ( talk • contribs) 16:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
A link to the Goa Inquisition page was deleted by Tinu Cherian, included two lines which referenced published sources as "vandalism". Tinu Cherian left a message for me, asking not to include my "personal opinion." I hardly realized that the Goa Inquisition was my personal opinion. Vandalism is a pretty serious charge. Puck42 ( talk) 16:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
(See comments in prior section also) I am well aware of WP:UNDUE. However I disagree with the gang-up undos to edit out anything that balances the slant of this article. Given the inability of both these people to also discuss specific points of contention while removing edits I will have no option but to dispute the neutrality of the article. Coming to the specific points. Please explain:
And I would like to remind the eminent editors on this page of a simple Wikipedia courtesy to avoid WP:EDITWAR, that is, for combative editors to think twice before deleting text someone has painstakingly entered and WP:Revert only when necessary. It is better to improve rather than delete. Alas this simple courtesy has not been shown to a single edit that goes contrary to the existing I have made in an attempt to improve and balance this page. I am restoring my original edits. Please feel free to improve these. If you do a revert again, without any discussion of contents, we will need to mark this as a dispute and also dispute the neutrality of this article. I would suggest you review the guidelines on WP:NPOV Puck42 ( talk) 22:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
While it may not be unreasonable to say that the presence of St. Thomas in South India is disputed, one cannot say that the story is (a) a myth or (b) the story was propagated by missionaries to convert people to christianity. You need to present Reliable Sources that back up the disputed nature of the story. The missionary part will always be, at best, unverifiable original research. -- Regents Park ( paddle with the ducks) 02:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
.- Bharatveer ( talk) 05:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Noticed that there is no section on contemporary Christianity, other than demographics. It would be good to add a reference to the new Bible that has just been released, that includes references to Indian scriptures. Father Bede Griffith's work is also notable. Perhaps these can come in the acculturation section. Another major contemporary development is the Joshua Project, a largely American Funded push for the conversion of India by aggressive Protestant organizations. Puck42 ( talk) 16:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Now that we have done enough chitchat, i thought I would bring up some WP:RS:
In 1867 it was ordered that on the recommendations of the first provincial inquisition held at Goa (Goa Inquisition) no Christians should keep infidel servants, that the public worship of both Hindus and Muslims should cease, that all heathen residents should attend every alternate Sunday to hear a sermon on the benefits of the Christianity and that children of left orphas should be brought up in Christian faith...Under the pressures of these rules and the unwearing persuasion of the religion, Goa became a city of Christians. -- Goa, Daman, and Diu (India) by R. N. Saksena [24]
It is not proposed here to mention the details of the Goa Inquisition. Suffice it to say that in the name of the religion of peace and love, this tribunal practised cruelties to the extent that every word of theirs was a sentence to death. Their harassment to both Hindus and Christians, while enforcing their laws, drove many of them to migrate to the neighboring territories. Priolkar, the famous historian, if of the opinion that "thousands of Konkani-speaking families, both Hindus and Christians, who are found scattered in various centers of Mysore, Kerala, and Madras today, are the descendants of these emigrants -- Goa, Daman, and Diu (India) by R. N. Saksena [25]
The Inquisition gained momentum and went on to ban Indian musical instruments, the dhoti - the Indian loincloth favored by men, and the chewing of betel leaves - a traditional Indian habit. Hundreds of Hindu temples were either destroyed or forcibly converted into Christian churches. Thousands of Hindu texts were burned with a view to ensuring the supremacy of Roman Catholic texts. -- The Rozabal Line by Shawn Haigins [26]
The priests of the Goan Inquisition set up headquaters in the former sultan's palace. They immediately outlawed Hinduism. Sacred Hindu texts were burned, Hindu music, clothing, and foods were banned. Hindu marriage was outlawed. Violaters were burned at the stake in groups in a ceremony known as auto-da-fe, "act of faith." The strictures of the Inquisition spanned 230 pages. Hindus who confessed their crimes were granted strangulation before they were burned. So many adults were killed that orphans abounded on the Konkan Coast. The Catholic Church raised these children Catholic... African slaves were imported to the colony. Led in gangs first by Jesuits, and later by Franciscans, the slaves descended on villages, capturing Hindus, rubbing raw pork in their mouths, thereby rendering the people outcasts from their own religion. The priests conducted a mass baptism of these untouchables on January 25 of each year, the Feast of the Conversion of St. Paul. -- The Konkans by Tony D'Souza [27]
Hope this settles it. 67.169.0.250 ( talk) 20:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
the goa acquisition is a important part of christianity in india and most would agree. this wikipedia article is itself too small to provide reasonable detail of christianity in india. i think information is deliberately being ignored based on personal POV. deepak, i think it's you whose acting like a brat. goa inquisition has everything to do with christian history in india. stop taking things personal and do what is meant. 117.98.83.197 ( talk)yet_another_hindu_infidel —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the sentence The states of
Kerala and
Tamil Nadu in
South India and
Arunachal Pradesh in
North-East India account for 60% of India's total Christian population.
The reason is the Lead should never contain contentious claims which are uncited. People can readd it in the lead once it is sourced. Moved it to Demographics section. Regards,
Kensplanet (
talk)
08:06, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Can the discussion below be taken to one of the user's talk pages please? Thanks Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 11:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Extended discussion |
---|
The following is a discussion that has been placed in a collapse box for improved usability. |
- Bharatveer ( talk) 08:19, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
|
The above is an extended discussion that has been collapsed for improved usability. |
The following statement does not have any reference and hence an unsubstantiated allegation The Government of the state of Tripura has claimed that it has evidence that the Baptist Church of Tripura has been supporting the terrorist group National Liberation Front of Tripura
I am going to remove this statement. If you have any object, let me know by tomorrow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Indiancrusader ( talk • contribs) 03:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I propose the following changes to the article:
Any suggestions/comments/oppositions etc are welcome-- Deepak D'Souza 05:25, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
See if these help too. Cheers Wiki San Roze †αLҝ 11:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
-anonymous user. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.45.122 ( talk) 07:14, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
I am adding an external link to "Non institutional Christians in India" to show that there exists also a church in Inida which contrasts with the mainstream and even different protestant movements. A topic like christianity should give the reader the possibility to get to know about not only large organizations but to get to know a comprehensive picture. -- Nikil44 ( talk) 06:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems like this article has become a gallery for church images. May I remind that this article is "Christianity in India", not "Churches in India". Every single user insists on putting an image of a church which represents his/her region, sect or group. We only need 2-3images. Only those churches which can claim to be important at the India level, and not at district or state level. The images should be representative of some aspect of Indian Christianity in terms of historical importance deserve to be here. So can wee have some consensus about this? -- Deepak D'Souza 04:19, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
The total number of Christians in India is at least 38,200,400, or 3.4% of the population.
Majority of Indian Christians are Roman Catholics 17.3 million members [28], including 408,725 members of the Roman Catholic Syro-Malankara Church [29] and 3,674,115 of the Roman Catholic Syro-Malabar Church [30]. In January 1993 the Syro-Malabar Church and in February 2005 Syro-Malankara Church were raised to the status of major archiepiscopal churches by Pope John Paul II. The Syro-Malabar Church is the second largest among 22 Eastern Catholic Churches who accept the pope ( Bishop of Rome) as the "visible head of the whole church".
Most Protestant denominations are represented in India, as a result of missionary activities throughout the country. The largest Protestant denomination in the country is the Church of South India, since 1947 a union of Presbyterian, Reformed, Congregational, Methodist, and Anglican congregations with approximately 3.8 million members [31]. A similar Church of North India had 1.25 million members [32]. (These churches are in full communion with the Anglican Communion.) The Mar Thoma Church has 900,000 members [33], and derives from the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, which numbers 2 million [34] and is in communion with the Anglicans, but not a full member. In 1961, the evangelical wing of the church came out of Mar Thoma Church and formed the St. Thomas Evangelical Church of India which has 10,000 members [35]. Syrian Orthodox Church of Malabar rites 2,200,000 members [36], respectively. There were about 1,267,786 million Lutherans [37], 648,000 Methodists [38], and 1,850,000 Baptists [39] . Pentecostalism, another denomination of Protestantism, is also a rapidly growing religion in India. It is spreading greatly in northern India and the southwest area, such as Kerala. The major Pentecostal churches in India are the Assemblies of God, India Pentecostal Church of God (IPC) with 900,000 members. [40] New Apostolic Church founded in 1969, with total adherents of 1,448,209. [41] The New Life Fellowship (founded in 1968) now has approximately 480,000 adherents, and the Manna Full Gospel churches and ministries (founded in 1968 with connections to Portugal) has 275,000. [42] Evangelical Church of India now has over 680 churches with a 250,000 community. [43] Another prominent group is the Brethrens. They are known in different names Plymouth Brethren, Indian Brethren, Kerala brethren. Presbyterian Church of India has 823,456 members. [44] Nagaland Baptist Church Council has 307,949 members. [45]
During the twentieth century, the fastest growing Christian communities have been located in the northeast, among the Khasis, Mizos, Nagas, and other hill tribes. Today Christians are most prevalent in the northeast, and in the southwestern states of Kerala and Goa. Indian Christians have contributed significantly to and are well represented in various spheres of national life. They are currently chief ministers of the states like Andhra Pradesh, Nagaland, Mizoram, and Meghalaya, and they were chief ministers earlier of Kerala, Manipur, Goa, and Chattisgarh. In the powerful election committee of the ruling Indian National Congress party, they take four out of twenty places.
The purchasing power of the Christian community in India was estimated at about $15 billion in 2005 (or 2 per cent of the national total).
Church Name | Population |
---|---|
Roman Catholics Latin Rite [46] | 13,217,160 |
Roman Catholic Syro-Malabar Church [47] | 3,674,115 |
Roman Catholic Syro-Malankara Church [48] | 408,725 |
Church of South India [49] | 3,800,000 |
New Apostolic Church [50] | 1,448,209 |
Church of North India [51] | 1,250,000 |
Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church [52] | 2,500,000 |
Mar Thoma Church [53] | 900,000 |
Syrian Orthodox Church of Malabar [54] | 2,200,000 |
Lutherans [55] | 1,267,786 |
Methodists [56] | 648,000 |
Baptists [57] | 1,850,000 |
India Pentecostal Church of God [58] | 900,000 |
Indian Brethren [59] | 1,000,000 |
St. Thomas Evangelical Church [60] | 1,000,000 |
Presbyterian Church of India [61] | 823,456 |
New Life Fellowship [62] | 480,000 |
Nagaland Baptist Church Council [63] | 307,949 |
Manna Full Gospel [64] | 275,000 |
Evangelical Church [65] | 250,000 |
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Pakhomovru ( talk • contribs) 13:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
As we have discussed before, there is no "proof", nor can there be, that St. Thomas ever came to Karala. The words "it is commonly believed that..." can be used.
One major reason is that there is no written record anywhere. The second is that we have to fall back on western understanding of India, which was poor in the Dark Ages. The term "India" referred to what is now Pakistan. Europeans did not understand the geography of the subcontinent. Nor did the inhabitants themselves call themselves by a name that included the entire subcontinent. They were under different kingdoms.
There are multiple graves, far too many, of St. Thomas, which is another problem since he can't be buried in more than one or two of them (maybe parts got moved for religious reasons). But he has 6-8 graves or so in several countries. So no help there.
I think most editors will allow anyone their fantasy if they precede it with the true statement, "It is believed.." or some qualifier. But since it can't be proved or properly footnoted with a WP:RELY reference, it really shouldn't be stated as fact.
If the revert war continues, I will ask for the article to be locked until we straighten this out. Student7 ( talk) 00:37, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Article states that the first Jewish migration to India followed the destruction of the First Temple (properly dated to sixth century BCE). But if you follow link to article on Cochin Jews, it states that they emigrated following the destruction of "the Temple" around 70 CE, which would refer to the Second Temple. I then sought a non-WIkipedia source and found that JewishEnclopedia.com traced the earliest evidence of a Jewish presence in India to around 750.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=558&letter=C —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edinyuma ( talk • contribs) 04:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}}
Please remove semi-protection for Christianity in India. It not only contains several grammatical errors but only many misleading factual errors. Thank you.
Sikolia07 ( talk) 23:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
A user has referred to Dalit Christians as untouchables in the first section, which I think is very demeaning to Dalits and Christians in general in this age and time. Would someone be polite enough to edit that. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kariappa07 ( talk • contribs) 17:37, 26 March 2010 (UTC) -- Kariappa07 ( talk) 17:39, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I got this comment on my talk page: -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 21:16, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
About the christianity in India page, we should not put wild claims like St. Thomas converted Kings and tribes of North India to Christianity based on no claims. In fact in Muslims of South Asia and Middle-east, there is a popular belief that ENGLAND's ruler had converted to Islam during 7th century. Fables like St. Thomas Acts are not verified and accepted by most Christians. If you visit St. Thomas article, you will see that he has been linked with one or another king from Russia to India throughout middle-east. Also, the article itself has links to disprove these fables
Eastern Christian writings state that Christianity was introduced to India by Thomas the Apostle, who visited Muziris in Kerala in 52 CE to proselytize amongst Kerala's Jewish settlements; however this is widely disputed due to lack of credible historical evidence. [66] [67] [68] I hope you uphold the standards of wikipedia. thanks
note: such wild claims cause much pain to non-Christians of India. Please dont play with our history and culture. We should learn to respect.
— —Preceding unsigned comment added by Varanwal ( talk • contribs) 26 April 2010 20:04 (UTC), User talk:Eraserhead1
Under the Early Christianity in India section, I would like to dismbig St. Thomas (in the caption of the photo of Mar Thoma Church) to point to Thomas the Apostle and not the disambig page Saint Thomas. Thank you
JustAGal ( talk) 20:48, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Can you guys discuss this and not edit war over it? Thanks. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 10:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Well, my main rationale for including info on dalit christians is that Christianity is a religion that has come and spread in India, and therefore it is important to note who mainly accepted Christianity. I see that the demographic section chickens out from acknowledging Caste system among Indian Christians. We do not have different articles in Wikipedia like "Christianity in India" and "Christians in India"; and therefore in this context the distinction between "demographics of Christians" and "demographics of Christianity" is but a false dichotomy. Moreover, strictly speaking "Dalit" or "Dalit christians" for that matter are not a single ethnic group but rather an umbrella term. The article also have no problem mentioning the Khasis, Mizos, and the Nagas, but no space for dalit Christians. Requesting comments from all. Thanks. Arjun[[User talk:|024]] 14:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I have my doubts about the accuracy of the source; but that is another issue altogether. My point is that ethnicity or caste based is unnecessary in an article about the religion. This article should discuss about the relegion , not about the ethnic communites. It will be relvant in: Christians in India but not here. This article should only contain demographic info about the Christain sects in India. -- Deepak D'Souza ( talk) 08:43, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
I support the inclusion of Dalit Christian Demographic data, (if sourced from a RS). The caste system was an important factor for conversions and there are enough issues in present day about Dalit Christians to warrant a small inclusion in the Demographics section. Whether the govt or church sanction it or not is a moot point. the practice of which is clearly extinct in urban Christian communities and the vast majority of Indian Christians are urban dwellers - this is a personal opinion. Where i come from, the "Dalit Christian" phenomenon clearly exists.-- Sodabottle ( talk) 11:53, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
-- Deepak D'Souza ( talk) 19:33, 21 May 2010 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Christianity_in_India&action=edit§ion=30
I notice that an IP editor is using an alleged consensus on this page as the reason for deleting all mention of numbers for Dalit Christians (even in other articles specifically about Dalits), as well as some large-scale deletion of blocks of text about Dalits. I would suggest:
The 70-80% figures are manipulated for political purposes. -- 75.134.157.143 ( talk) 08:26, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Vatican never conducted a survey in India and hence we cannot go by what the Vatican uses. The origins of these pumped up percentages lie in colonial days when Hindu fundamentalists tried to portray Indian Christianity as something that spread through coercion. Fundamentalists still use these "figures" today to further their cause of anti-conversion laws stating that only disadvantaged classes adopt Christianity and that Christian missionaries woo them into converting to Christianity thereby dismissing all conversions as dubious or forced conversions. The NSSO figures have shown that is not the case.-- 75.134.157.143 ( talk) 01:57, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Just because something is frequently quoted doesn't mean that it is the gospel truth. Something that is not proven yet commonly believed is called a myth in the English language. And in reference to your comment "if such an enormous error had been made, it would have been commented on in the debate on the issue." Yes ofcourse, it has been mentioned more than once in this debate. Please refer to the contributions of user Deepak. As for you comment "books and newspaper reports as cited are (barely) adequate references per Wikipedia policy."- It applies to your own stand on including the 70% figure which is based simply on books and newspapers with no citations or offical sources.-- 75.134.157.143 ( talk) 04:14, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Well a lot has been said and done in this discussion. Sorry for re-starting this a bit late; I was busy. I will ennumerte my concerns in the hope of facilitate discussion:
-- Deepak D'Souza ( talk) 08:14, 29 June 2010 (UTC)