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I think this article has good potential, and I look forward to seeing what you develop here. -- Pastordavid 16:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Wow, very comprehensive for a starup. I hope it does well. George 18:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey, what about something on the consumer mindset of churchgoers?
Zantaggerung 20:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
the article needs to clearer distinguish between influence on mythology and on doctrine, between influence by pre-Christian religion on 1st century scripture (gospels, acts), the syncretism with Hellenistic and Roman religion in the 2nd to 4th centuries, and the influence of pagan and Gnostic religion on later Christianity (veneration of saints, Marian apparitions etc.) Most of this is or should be treated on other articles, such as
Christian mythology,
folk Christianity,
Christianity and Buddhism,
Christianity and Islam,
Fathers of Christian Gnosticism,
Christianity and Freemasonry,
Germanic Christianity,
Hellenic philosophy and Christianity and
Jesus Christ as myth.
dab
(𒁳) 12:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Tons of problems. Declares ancient Christianity a mystery religion right off the bat, which is in no way a fact. Declares the Old Testamant "mythology" which is POV, has far too many fringe conjectures not labeled as such (Buddhism, secret initiates before Paul ect...), too many weasly statements like "has been suggested" and "is being debated". I can also see nowhere where the scholarly consensus is given on any of the issues. Come on guys, clean it up. Roy Brumback 08:24, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no conceivable way that Christianity has anything to do with any mystery religion. Of course one would have to know the nature of Christianity to understand this. Take for example Mithra. He was born before any humans existed on earth. Mithra has nothing to do with any historical figure. This particular mystery religion changes with time. The Mithra of one year shows no comparison with the Mithra later in time. Mithra didn't die. It is basically a polytheistic religion. Let's now look at Christianity. Jesus was born in time. There were actually historical figures that come up in stories of His existance. Jesus died and was resurrected. The Christian God, unlike any polytheistic religion, is One. There are no other gods besides Him. Mithra is a myth. Jesus is a fact of life. Anathasius ( talk) 04:37, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Christianity is mythology by the definition of mythology. Wiktionary:
Mythology - A similar body of myths concerning an event, person or institution.
Myth - A story of a great but unknown age which embodies a belief regarding some fact or phenomenon of experience, and in which often the forces of nature and of the soul are personified; an ancient story of a god, a hero, the origin of a race, etc.; a wonder story of prehistoric origin.
Negi(afk) ( talk) 20:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I dont like that the title automatically suggests 'right off the bat' that Christianity is correct while all other are false (pagan) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KazuoBR ( talk • contribs) 19:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The simple fact is that any Roman or scholar of classics will tell you that Christianlity was, in fact, considered a mystery cult and was started as a cult within Judaism. The Old Testament is mythology. If something cannot be proven with facts and it is taken to be truth without any presence of said facts, then it is considered mythological. The evidence is very clear about Christianity borrowing extensively from so-called Pagans and the Mithraic myths of a virgin birth —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.15.20.102 ( talk) 18:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid this article, like some of you writers, is quite mistaken. A lot of evidence shows that Christianity started in the first century AD. Mithraism, which was different from the original Persian Mithraism, was also too likely a copycat of Christianity used by the Roman Empire shortly after Christianity began. Atheism, in many ways, is equivalent to racism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevin j ( talk • contribs) 21:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Although I started this article, I haven't reviewed it for a long time. After re-reading the intro today, it did seem disputable because it makes bald assertions about the origins of Christianity being in Paganism. I have reworded the intro to make it clear that this is ONE theory about the origins of Christianity and not necessarily "THE TRUTH".
I haven't reviewed the rest of the article to clean up POV issues but I do believe it should be made clear that the material presented in this article are theories (and non-mainstream minority ones at that).
-- Richard 16:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Since we have this article anyway, I think it would be appropriate to merge some of the content of the old Historical Persecution by Christians here. Regardless whether the article is called this or Christian debate on persecution and toleration, it would be undue to debate the relations between Christians and Pagans in detail there; But I suppose that from a Neopagan perspective there is some interest in the topic, and in this article we would have enough space for that. Zara1709 ( talk) 11:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, this is quite important. What is the intended scope of this article? With the current intro, it takes "Paganism" as a sort of reference for any ""primitive"", "tribal", indigenous religion. I don't know it that is actually a correct use of the word "Paganism", after all the word "Paganism" is a little pejorative. Hey, you dumb villagers haven't converted to Christianity yet? But - for the lack of a better term - Paganism was used in the (few) articles and books I read Persecution by Christians in the late Roman Empire, and since there seems to be a greater interest on WP to take a look at the relations between Christians and Pagans (people apparently care less about the Christian heretics), I thought that it would be best to centralize this topic here (instead of having it split out at various 'Christinization' and 'Persecution' articles. of course, there were conflicts and cooperation between Christians and Pagans and debating one without the other should be avoided (for wp:NPOV and such). The relations between Christianity and the indigenous religions outside Europe is a different topic. I really hope that I don't need to point out that there is a difference between Christianity and the Europeans in general. Probably I am going to rewrite the into to something more like the previous version. Zara1709 ( talk) 17:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
See comment of "07:35, 20 March 2012" below for the intended scope of this article... AnonMoos ( talk) 12:12, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi Folks, At the beginning of this article it mentioned how there are many opinions and disagreements on the content of the article. As I read over this talk page I realized that there was actually no one that took the Catholic side of the discussion. Everyone appeared to be, if not anti Catholic, then they had no sympathies with the Catholic Church. I suggest that the reason there is so much dissension in the article is because the article is very inaccurate. You unquestionably need someone on the Catholic side to balance off the topic. I do volunteer to be that person if I'm allowed to do so. Anathasius ( talk) 05:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Just wanted to leave a note that I put the {{Unreferenced}} box on the article page. Can somebody get the references done? Cuine100 ( talk) 05:16, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
These are not the same thing. "Catholicism and Paganism" would be a much more apt title. 72.240.177.210 ( talk) 21:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
A list of books dealing with Christianity and Paganism can be found here:
http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/library.html#pagan , good sources to use for future expansion of this article (I noticed quite a few {{expand}}
tags). --
œ
™ 05:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
It would be great if someone with specialist knowledge on Christian relations with the Saxons and Germanic people in the period covered would assist in providing references. Much of the content seems to be uncited and occassionaly unencyclopedic in wording and voice. As this is quite a few hundred years outside of my speciality a hand would be great. -- Ari ( talk) 02:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
It is indeed time to put the shoulder to the wheel here. This article is going to be in WP:SS style, as it touches on many topics that have dedicated articles elsewhere (such as Jesus Christ in comparative mythology, Christian mythology, decline of Hellenistic paganism, Germanic Christianity, Christianization of Anglo-Saxon England, etc.) What it needs to aim for is an informed and coherent summary of how Christianity and pagan traditions have cross-influenced one another over time. -- dab (𒁳) 09:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
This is very biased 78.145.60.86 ( talk) 12:37, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
This article is biased. It is Christianity = Good. Paganism = Bad. Wogham ( talk)
Why is there NO mention of the witch hunts? -- Unencyclomancer ( talk) 11:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Recently I placed a rewrite request tag on this article, the reasons for which AnonMoos ( talk · contribs) asked me to elaborate on. Below it stood (and continues to stand) a series of other tags placed by other users, pointing out rampant issues with synthesis, neutrality issues, and poor referencing throughout. Now, if these issues weren't enough to make passer-bys proclaim "yikes, I think it would be a Hell of a lot easier if someone just came by and rewrote this mess", then allow me to elaborate; as it stands, this article is extremely sympathetic to Christianity and heavily downplays or ignores the modernly inconvenient side of Christianity—the fact that, in medieval Europe, the pyramid structure of the church was, sword in hand, a handy machine to subject all who resisted under a single, church-backed banner—while basically violating every principle that makes a Wikipedia article at all worthwhile (see above). Therefore, I suggest, the simple solution is for someone with some time on their hands rewrite this article with transparent, neutral, academic sources at hand, with which they would neutrally detail the interactions between Christianity and the various types of "paganism" (i.e. all non-Abrahamic religions) it has encountered through its history. :bloodofox: ( talk) 18:44, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
First of all "the old testiment" IS mythology! It isn't POV. Is there a historical basis? Yes. But there are historical basis for most myths. And this article seems keen on highlighting Pagan attacks on Christians while leaving Christian massacres on Pagans out. And it briefly whisks by the Pagan influences on Catholics and other early Christians (such as Gnostics) for instance, turning Yule into Christmas, turning Samhain into All Souls Day, and changing Asther (a Babylonian spring holiday) into Passover and eventually Easter. Not to mention influences such as Zeus' appearance and later interpretations of God's appearance. Resurrection myths from Egypt, Babylon, and Greece. Of coarse Greece and Rome had a million myths about human children of dieties, so Jesus doesn't score originality points there. And who could forget the Osiris and Isis mythos of Reassurection. Christianity is Clearly a mythos build on its predecessors. But that's ok. Because all mythologies are. Christians just need to get over it. Instead of whining about Pagans, Christians might want to research inconsistencies in their own religion. Like genesis and the pesky mention of a woman before Eve. There's a million reasons to rip Christianity apart. Christians shouldnt be so concerned with why people persecute their faith. If you killed millions of people in he inquisition, the crusades, the slaughter of Gnostics, and The Children's Crusade, you'd have people investigating you too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.191.67.162 ( talk) 21:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Reading over the article and browsing through the talk page, I'm concerned that the arguments are perpetual becaue there is no defined purpose of this article. It currently carries a wide range of subjects from the origins of Christianity to the persecutions of accused witches, among others. Any definitive encyclopedia article should have a specific focus. I propose this article should be reevaluated with a single topic in mind. A good start might be the introduction of a thesis statement. Off the top of my head, two finite subjects that this article could be steered towards include the historical interactions & relations between the adherents of Christianity and paganism or the similarities and differences between their respective beliefs and practices. Either subject would be a benefit to the article and can easily be sourced from "both sides of the aisle" to provide a clearly neutral point-of-view. Gawain VIII ( talk) 19:07, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Why is the Christianisation of the Germanic people only described as using violence? There were instances of non-violent conversions, take Iceland for an example. If the purpose was to show that they were brutal methods of the Germanic people then granted, but shouldn't it be renamed then? Because, despite what many modern Scandinavians might say, there are several examples of peaceful converts in the Germanic people, like I mentioned, Iceland. I'm just asking why only the violent version is included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.142.185.229 ( talk) 13:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
I have to agree with this: the conversion discussed is very negative in tone, and would have been more balanced had the author presented this fact as well. (The vast majority of conversion of Germanic peoples - and there were too many ethnic groups and tribes for one article - was peaceful.) There are some blatant factual errors: a few that popped out at me were the assertion that the Saxons were some of the last peoples to be christianized - something I'm sure would surprise scholars of Scandinavian history! Fact is, although the Saxon conversion post-dated that of neighboring Celts such as the Welsh and Irish, it occurred far earlier than that of the Scottish and the invading Norse and Danish tribes. I think the problem with an article like this is that too often the author is a product of the last few decades of a university system that is biased toward the left and secular. Unfortunately that bias and its accompanying revisionist history presents a poor picture of 'facts'. Someone else asked what the overall purpose of this article even is, since it isn't focused and contains more conjecture than fact about anything related to actual Christian history. I would have to agree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.166.10.225 ( talk) 02:23, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
off-topic rant
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I know of only one Christian Faith that removed all the pagan practices celebrated by the majority of supposed Christian Faiths. The one I speak of is called a cult originally by the Roman Catholic Church because they remove all false teachings and pagan practices. They model themselves after the first Century Christian Faith or Way of life. They Preach the Good News of the Kingdom of God From village to village, house to house and door to door and many other places. They practice no pagan celebrations such as Birthday Celebration which is in the bible in two places. Both was pagan Royalty celebrating their birthdays. It was not part of Christianity at all. In fact John the Baptizer lost his head during one of those accounts of birthday celebration. Since Christ Jesus was born while the shepherds where out in the fields and the fact that they do not celebrate birthdays. They do not celebrate Christmas or X-mass. Also because that is the time of numerous pagan celebration practices such as Winter Solstice and Yule and the Tree worship and Saturnalia, and the list can go on for pagan practices during that time period. None of which the First Century Christians practiced or celebrated. Easter Sunday also has pagan roots. Valentines Day, pagan roots. Halloween or Witches Hallow is definitely pagan to the max as it is the night of the dead and nothing to do with Christianity. They do not practice traditions of man also such as New Years Day or Independence Day 4th of July and even Martin Luther King Day, nor Fathers Day or Mothers Day or any of those days that are Holidays in the traditional sense. The Do celebrate the last meal of Christ Jesus where he broke the bread and said this means my body and he drank the wine and said this means my blood and told them to keep doing this as a remembrance of his new covenant with them. They do not believe in participating in War on any side of the various countries. They are Conscience Objectors when it comes to war. They will not serve even if it means going to prison because they are world wide and if they did serve they would be put in a position of killing one of their own spiritual brothers or sister plus because it is killing period which is not acceptable to our Creator according to his word. They instead of making their places of worship into a place of entertainment and decorated with gold and riches to be glorified and with idols such as Jesus on a cross and mother Mary and etc. have simple places of worship and study of Gods Word, the Holy Bible. They do not separate the children from the parents during this time of worship and learning. Their Children are trained as they are and not taken off into rooms to make Macaroni Plates glidered with gold & silver metal flakes or any other things like that. They don't have rock concerts in their places of worship, not magic shows or loud blasting music and require you not to bring your bibles but to just mingle with each other. They try to imitate their Christ Jesus in all that they do. He always gave his Heavenly Father to glory while on earth, so do they. Since he is our mediator they do pray through Jesus Christ's name in order to have their prayers heard by our Heavenly Father as they know they are to imperfect to talk directly to him without Jesus Christ as our mediator. As workers they work as if it is for our Creator and not themselves in most everything they work at. They are politically neutral and keep it that way no matter what happens in the world because they are waiting on the Kingdom of God to rule over the earth rather than mankind ruling themselves. They consider themselves like a Watchman over a city. If they did not warn others they would be blood guilty. That is why the have a world wide preaching work which is almost completed and once it is then will be the end of wicked mankind. Some countries have labeled them as extremists and call them terrorist because of that label but living stickily by the bible as they do is not a terrorist but a True Christian whose whole life is dedicated to serving their Heavenly Father & Creator and his only-begotten Son, Christ Jesus. Most Pagan practices and teachings came out of Ancient Babylon including the Trinity, Cross, and many other false teachings and practices that have been slipped into false Christianity. The only ones I have found to date that do the way they are suppose to do scripturally is Jehovah's Witnesses. You find me someone who lives the bible everyday as they do and I will check them out myself. But you can not find any other faith that lives the bible as they do and are footstep followers of Our Heavenly Fathers only-begotten son, Christ Jesus. I have tried to find someone else who lives every aspect of True Christianity and yet have not found any other faith that meets to standards laid out in the bible and Given to us buy Jehovah God and his only-begotten Son, Christ Jesus as they do. The one big thing that they did was Translate a bible that is understandable and put's our Heavenly Fathers name back where it is suppose to be as close to accurately as they could. In the Hebrew Scriptures it was in the bible originally close to 7,000 times. Think about it, does that sound like a GOD who does not want his name to be used to you? It was suppose to be in Joel 2:32 which says "whoever calls on the name Jehovah will be saved." His name was replaced in most modern bibles, not all with a title, Lord or LORD. Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 quote Joel 2:32 so in places like that they put Jehovah back into the Christian Greek Scriptures. Doesn't it seem strange that not one copy of the Christian Greek Scriptures can be found in the first 200 years of Christianity? Papal Rome destroyed them all so as to hide God's name and put their Trinity Doctrine into the bible. It is over 200 places in the Christian Greek Scriptures just by putting it back where it was quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures and in other contexts that could only be our Heavenly Father. KJV has only three places his name was found. Psalms 83:18 and the New King James Version completely removed it. So if you do not know his name because it has been removed, how are you going to call on his name to be saved? Even John the Baptizer knew Jesus was the son of Jehovah God when he saw the Holy Spirit descend upon Jesus after he baptized him and John said so. To make Jesus into God as Papal Rome did is blasphemy. Jesus never claimed he was God. Papal Rome made that claim with their false Doctrine, the Trinity Doctrine. Also Jehovah Witnesses know what happens when you die. You have no more thoughts and you can not do any devising, dust to dust is it. Only those who have paid the price of sin and those who are worshipers of Jehovah God will be resurrected back to life in the last day. Hell, Sheol Hades, the common grave of mankind or just the grave is what happens when you die. Your dead. Anything other than that is from the demons and Satan who want you to believe his first lie that you will not die when you die. When you body dies, your soul dies with it. These scriptures back up what I said about the dead. Ecc. 9:5, 10; Gen. 3:19 Gehenna (The Valley of Henna) was the place they destroyed all the waste and condemned criminals with brimstone and sulfur. It even burned to bones to ashes so it is representative to permanent destruction which is the second death. Gehenna is where all the wicked are going when God's Kingdom come to the Earth soon. That is why it is so important to warn everyone so they have a chance to turn from doing what is bad in Jehovah God's eyes and repent and come to him and learn who he is and who his Only-begotten son, Jesus Christ is. Time is short so please turn around from doing what is bad ASAP. Jehovah God is not slow about destroying wicked mankind but patient because he want all to come to repentance and turn to him to survive. But once Babylon the Great is destroyed which is very soon the door to turn around, is closed. It is like the door to the Ark in Noah's time. Jehovah God closed that door and all those people yelling and pounding on the outside never got in afterwards. Only Noah and his family survived and all the animals Jehovah brought to the Ark. Noah was warning people for 40 years of the great flood. He was laughed at and ridiculed. We have been warning the whole world for more than twice that long and we also have been ridiculed and laughed at and slandered and you name. We had at our last memorial of Jesus Christ in attendance well over 18 Million people world wide. That is a small nation of all nations. Now some will want us dead because we tell the truth and they do not like to hear it but here is the good side of that even. If we die for the names of Jehovah and his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ, it is actually guaranteeing our resurrection. We do not want to be killed but as for myself, I can not turn away from serving him. The rest in the majority of the Jehovah's Witnesses feel the same way. I messed up but I repented and turn around from doing bad and I have no plans to mess up again in that way and I know most of Satan's traps now since I am much older and have seen a lot. I know his head trips now also. He just wont's you to do one act of worship to him and that is all. That is what he wanted from Jesus and offered him all the Nations if he did. Jesus never denied he had all the Nation's in his grip to offer them to him but he said it is to Jehovah God alone you must worship. No other gods. In Isaiah 42:8 Jehovah God said he does not share his glory with anyone. Jesus gave him all the glory and did not take it for himself. So when Papal Rome brought the Trinity Doctrine into the picture they blasphemed Jehovah God name by making other share his glory he alone gets. They down graded Jehovah God both by removing his name from the scriptures and when the truth be known Jesus himself said that his father is greater than he is. Why would they try to say Jehovah God and Jesus are God? As you can see in the Vatican, they have paganism all over that place, even the structure is pagan. It has the symbolism of Egypt in its construction with a obelisk even, as does Washington DC. Here is the biggest question. Why does Rothschild have the oldest copy of the bible from the Dead Sea Scrolls and will not share it with anyone? Because he is trying to change it, and if you saw it before he changed it, you would know the real truths. Especially John 1:1 which contradicts the rest of the bible. "The Word is a god". Not GOD.
Isaiah 9:6 General 6 For a child has been born to us,A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. John 1:18 General 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him. John 10:35, 36 General 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? (Note from me: see up above here is has Jesus even saying the Trinity is blaspheme because he is not GOD but his son and he even says so.) Philippians 2:5, 6 General 5 Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. So in conclusion I tell you this. I have yet to find a faith that follows the bible to the letter as I have found with Jehovah's Witnesses and if you know of one prove it. I want to see who follows the bible as close as Jehovah Witnesses do if not closer and with more accuracy than them in living what we are told to live in the bible? But you better hurry, because your time will be short also if you do not turn around from what is bad and repent. Also you have to get out of Babylon the Great the Harlot riding the Wild Beast. Babylon the Great is the empire of all false religion and false pagan worshiping Christianity. The Wild Beast is the United Nations. The Wild Beast that was before it was the League of Nations. Time is almost up for everyone to repent and turn to Jehovah God for salvation. Go to JW.org and start a study of the bible with them. You will learn the truth there. May Jehovah God shine his light on all of you so as to have you saved when that time comes which is very soon. Good Night and sorry for my lousy grammar. My worst subject in school. I aced most my tests in Electronic but can not write worth beans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HawkNo1 ( talk • contribs) 12:12, 12 October 2018 (UTC) |
See WP:WTRMT - Some neutrality-related templates, such as ...
![]() | The
neutrality of this article is
disputed. |
(associated with the neutral point of view policy), strongly recommend that the tagging editor initiate a discussion (generally on the article's talk page), to support the placement of the tag. If the tagging editor failed to do so, or the discussion is dormant, the template can be removed. There is no current discussion on this talk page as to what the neutrality problem(s) may be or how to address them, so I have removed the tag. Smeat75 ( talk) 02:21, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Christianity and Paganism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Frend":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 00:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
While I do not currently have time to fix this page up, I would like to recommend Barbara Percival's " From Paganism to Christianity" article on academia.edu as one of your sources. Best of luck, Wikipedians, in fixing this article up! Historyday01 ( talk) 18:52, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
Dragovit The info box was there to show where Cynegius' reign of terror was located. It is pertinent to the paragraph it is next to, and I personally think you should put it back. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 19:59, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
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I think this article has good potential, and I look forward to seeing what you develop here. -- Pastordavid 16:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Wow, very comprehensive for a starup. I hope it does well. George 18:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Hey, what about something on the consumer mindset of churchgoers?
Zantaggerung 20:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
the article needs to clearer distinguish between influence on mythology and on doctrine, between influence by pre-Christian religion on 1st century scripture (gospels, acts), the syncretism with Hellenistic and Roman religion in the 2nd to 4th centuries, and the influence of pagan and Gnostic religion on later Christianity (veneration of saints, Marian apparitions etc.) Most of this is or should be treated on other articles, such as
Christian mythology,
folk Christianity,
Christianity and Buddhism,
Christianity and Islam,
Fathers of Christian Gnosticism,
Christianity and Freemasonry,
Germanic Christianity,
Hellenic philosophy and Christianity and
Jesus Christ as myth.
dab
(𒁳) 12:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Tons of problems. Declares ancient Christianity a mystery religion right off the bat, which is in no way a fact. Declares the Old Testamant "mythology" which is POV, has far too many fringe conjectures not labeled as such (Buddhism, secret initiates before Paul ect...), too many weasly statements like "has been suggested" and "is being debated". I can also see nowhere where the scholarly consensus is given on any of the issues. Come on guys, clean it up. Roy Brumback 08:24, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
There is no conceivable way that Christianity has anything to do with any mystery religion. Of course one would have to know the nature of Christianity to understand this. Take for example Mithra. He was born before any humans existed on earth. Mithra has nothing to do with any historical figure. This particular mystery religion changes with time. The Mithra of one year shows no comparison with the Mithra later in time. Mithra didn't die. It is basically a polytheistic religion. Let's now look at Christianity. Jesus was born in time. There were actually historical figures that come up in stories of His existance. Jesus died and was resurrected. The Christian God, unlike any polytheistic religion, is One. There are no other gods besides Him. Mithra is a myth. Jesus is a fact of life. Anathasius ( talk) 04:37, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Christianity is mythology by the definition of mythology. Wiktionary:
Mythology - A similar body of myths concerning an event, person or institution.
Myth - A story of a great but unknown age which embodies a belief regarding some fact or phenomenon of experience, and in which often the forces of nature and of the soul are personified; an ancient story of a god, a hero, the origin of a race, etc.; a wonder story of prehistoric origin.
Negi(afk) ( talk) 20:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I dont like that the title automatically suggests 'right off the bat' that Christianity is correct while all other are false (pagan) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KazuoBR ( talk • contribs) 19:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The simple fact is that any Roman or scholar of classics will tell you that Christianlity was, in fact, considered a mystery cult and was started as a cult within Judaism. The Old Testament is mythology. If something cannot be proven with facts and it is taken to be truth without any presence of said facts, then it is considered mythological. The evidence is very clear about Christianity borrowing extensively from so-called Pagans and the Mithraic myths of a virgin birth —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.15.20.102 ( talk) 18:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid this article, like some of you writers, is quite mistaken. A lot of evidence shows that Christianity started in the first century AD. Mithraism, which was different from the original Persian Mithraism, was also too likely a copycat of Christianity used by the Roman Empire shortly after Christianity began. Atheism, in many ways, is equivalent to racism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevin j ( talk • contribs) 21:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Although I started this article, I haven't reviewed it for a long time. After re-reading the intro today, it did seem disputable because it makes bald assertions about the origins of Christianity being in Paganism. I have reworded the intro to make it clear that this is ONE theory about the origins of Christianity and not necessarily "THE TRUTH".
I haven't reviewed the rest of the article to clean up POV issues but I do believe it should be made clear that the material presented in this article are theories (and non-mainstream minority ones at that).
-- Richard 16:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Since we have this article anyway, I think it would be appropriate to merge some of the content of the old Historical Persecution by Christians here. Regardless whether the article is called this or Christian debate on persecution and toleration, it would be undue to debate the relations between Christians and Pagans in detail there; But I suppose that from a Neopagan perspective there is some interest in the topic, and in this article we would have enough space for that. Zara1709 ( talk) 11:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, this is quite important. What is the intended scope of this article? With the current intro, it takes "Paganism" as a sort of reference for any ""primitive"", "tribal", indigenous religion. I don't know it that is actually a correct use of the word "Paganism", after all the word "Paganism" is a little pejorative. Hey, you dumb villagers haven't converted to Christianity yet? But - for the lack of a better term - Paganism was used in the (few) articles and books I read Persecution by Christians in the late Roman Empire, and since there seems to be a greater interest on WP to take a look at the relations between Christians and Pagans (people apparently care less about the Christian heretics), I thought that it would be best to centralize this topic here (instead of having it split out at various 'Christinization' and 'Persecution' articles. of course, there were conflicts and cooperation between Christians and Pagans and debating one without the other should be avoided (for wp:NPOV and such). The relations between Christianity and the indigenous religions outside Europe is a different topic. I really hope that I don't need to point out that there is a difference between Christianity and the Europeans in general. Probably I am going to rewrite the into to something more like the previous version. Zara1709 ( talk) 17:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
See comment of "07:35, 20 March 2012" below for the intended scope of this article... AnonMoos ( talk) 12:12, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi Folks, At the beginning of this article it mentioned how there are many opinions and disagreements on the content of the article. As I read over this talk page I realized that there was actually no one that took the Catholic side of the discussion. Everyone appeared to be, if not anti Catholic, then they had no sympathies with the Catholic Church. I suggest that the reason there is so much dissension in the article is because the article is very inaccurate. You unquestionably need someone on the Catholic side to balance off the topic. I do volunteer to be that person if I'm allowed to do so. Anathasius ( talk) 05:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Just wanted to leave a note that I put the {{Unreferenced}} box on the article page. Can somebody get the references done? Cuine100 ( talk) 05:16, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
These are not the same thing. "Catholicism and Paganism" would be a much more apt title. 72.240.177.210 ( talk) 21:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
A list of books dealing with Christianity and Paganism can be found here:
http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/library.html#pagan , good sources to use for future expansion of this article (I noticed quite a few {{expand}}
tags). --
œ
™ 05:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
It would be great if someone with specialist knowledge on Christian relations with the Saxons and Germanic people in the period covered would assist in providing references. Much of the content seems to be uncited and occassionaly unencyclopedic in wording and voice. As this is quite a few hundred years outside of my speciality a hand would be great. -- Ari ( talk) 02:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
It is indeed time to put the shoulder to the wheel here. This article is going to be in WP:SS style, as it touches on many topics that have dedicated articles elsewhere (such as Jesus Christ in comparative mythology, Christian mythology, decline of Hellenistic paganism, Germanic Christianity, Christianization of Anglo-Saxon England, etc.) What it needs to aim for is an informed and coherent summary of how Christianity and pagan traditions have cross-influenced one another over time. -- dab (𒁳) 09:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
This is very biased 78.145.60.86 ( talk) 12:37, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
This article is biased. It is Christianity = Good. Paganism = Bad. Wogham ( talk)
Why is there NO mention of the witch hunts? -- Unencyclomancer ( talk) 11:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Recently I placed a rewrite request tag on this article, the reasons for which AnonMoos ( talk · contribs) asked me to elaborate on. Below it stood (and continues to stand) a series of other tags placed by other users, pointing out rampant issues with synthesis, neutrality issues, and poor referencing throughout. Now, if these issues weren't enough to make passer-bys proclaim "yikes, I think it would be a Hell of a lot easier if someone just came by and rewrote this mess", then allow me to elaborate; as it stands, this article is extremely sympathetic to Christianity and heavily downplays or ignores the modernly inconvenient side of Christianity—the fact that, in medieval Europe, the pyramid structure of the church was, sword in hand, a handy machine to subject all who resisted under a single, church-backed banner—while basically violating every principle that makes a Wikipedia article at all worthwhile (see above). Therefore, I suggest, the simple solution is for someone with some time on their hands rewrite this article with transparent, neutral, academic sources at hand, with which they would neutrally detail the interactions between Christianity and the various types of "paganism" (i.e. all non-Abrahamic religions) it has encountered through its history. :bloodofox: ( talk) 18:44, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
First of all "the old testiment" IS mythology! It isn't POV. Is there a historical basis? Yes. But there are historical basis for most myths. And this article seems keen on highlighting Pagan attacks on Christians while leaving Christian massacres on Pagans out. And it briefly whisks by the Pagan influences on Catholics and other early Christians (such as Gnostics) for instance, turning Yule into Christmas, turning Samhain into All Souls Day, and changing Asther (a Babylonian spring holiday) into Passover and eventually Easter. Not to mention influences such as Zeus' appearance and later interpretations of God's appearance. Resurrection myths from Egypt, Babylon, and Greece. Of coarse Greece and Rome had a million myths about human children of dieties, so Jesus doesn't score originality points there. And who could forget the Osiris and Isis mythos of Reassurection. Christianity is Clearly a mythos build on its predecessors. But that's ok. Because all mythologies are. Christians just need to get over it. Instead of whining about Pagans, Christians might want to research inconsistencies in their own religion. Like genesis and the pesky mention of a woman before Eve. There's a million reasons to rip Christianity apart. Christians shouldnt be so concerned with why people persecute their faith. If you killed millions of people in he inquisition, the crusades, the slaughter of Gnostics, and The Children's Crusade, you'd have people investigating you too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.191.67.162 ( talk) 21:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Reading over the article and browsing through the talk page, I'm concerned that the arguments are perpetual becaue there is no defined purpose of this article. It currently carries a wide range of subjects from the origins of Christianity to the persecutions of accused witches, among others. Any definitive encyclopedia article should have a specific focus. I propose this article should be reevaluated with a single topic in mind. A good start might be the introduction of a thesis statement. Off the top of my head, two finite subjects that this article could be steered towards include the historical interactions & relations between the adherents of Christianity and paganism or the similarities and differences between their respective beliefs and practices. Either subject would be a benefit to the article and can easily be sourced from "both sides of the aisle" to provide a clearly neutral point-of-view. Gawain VIII ( talk) 19:07, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Why is the Christianisation of the Germanic people only described as using violence? There were instances of non-violent conversions, take Iceland for an example. If the purpose was to show that they were brutal methods of the Germanic people then granted, but shouldn't it be renamed then? Because, despite what many modern Scandinavians might say, there are several examples of peaceful converts in the Germanic people, like I mentioned, Iceland. I'm just asking why only the violent version is included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.142.185.229 ( talk) 13:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
I have to agree with this: the conversion discussed is very negative in tone, and would have been more balanced had the author presented this fact as well. (The vast majority of conversion of Germanic peoples - and there were too many ethnic groups and tribes for one article - was peaceful.) There are some blatant factual errors: a few that popped out at me were the assertion that the Saxons were some of the last peoples to be christianized - something I'm sure would surprise scholars of Scandinavian history! Fact is, although the Saxon conversion post-dated that of neighboring Celts such as the Welsh and Irish, it occurred far earlier than that of the Scottish and the invading Norse and Danish tribes. I think the problem with an article like this is that too often the author is a product of the last few decades of a university system that is biased toward the left and secular. Unfortunately that bias and its accompanying revisionist history presents a poor picture of 'facts'. Someone else asked what the overall purpose of this article even is, since it isn't focused and contains more conjecture than fact about anything related to actual Christian history. I would have to agree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.166.10.225 ( talk) 02:23, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
off-topic rant
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I know of only one Christian Faith that removed all the pagan practices celebrated by the majority of supposed Christian Faiths. The one I speak of is called a cult originally by the Roman Catholic Church because they remove all false teachings and pagan practices. They model themselves after the first Century Christian Faith or Way of life. They Preach the Good News of the Kingdom of God From village to village, house to house and door to door and many other places. They practice no pagan celebrations such as Birthday Celebration which is in the bible in two places. Both was pagan Royalty celebrating their birthdays. It was not part of Christianity at all. In fact John the Baptizer lost his head during one of those accounts of birthday celebration. Since Christ Jesus was born while the shepherds where out in the fields and the fact that they do not celebrate birthdays. They do not celebrate Christmas or X-mass. Also because that is the time of numerous pagan celebration practices such as Winter Solstice and Yule and the Tree worship and Saturnalia, and the list can go on for pagan practices during that time period. None of which the First Century Christians practiced or celebrated. Easter Sunday also has pagan roots. Valentines Day, pagan roots. Halloween or Witches Hallow is definitely pagan to the max as it is the night of the dead and nothing to do with Christianity. They do not practice traditions of man also such as New Years Day or Independence Day 4th of July and even Martin Luther King Day, nor Fathers Day or Mothers Day or any of those days that are Holidays in the traditional sense. The Do celebrate the last meal of Christ Jesus where he broke the bread and said this means my body and he drank the wine and said this means my blood and told them to keep doing this as a remembrance of his new covenant with them. They do not believe in participating in War on any side of the various countries. They are Conscience Objectors when it comes to war. They will not serve even if it means going to prison because they are world wide and if they did serve they would be put in a position of killing one of their own spiritual brothers or sister plus because it is killing period which is not acceptable to our Creator according to his word. They instead of making their places of worship into a place of entertainment and decorated with gold and riches to be glorified and with idols such as Jesus on a cross and mother Mary and etc. have simple places of worship and study of Gods Word, the Holy Bible. They do not separate the children from the parents during this time of worship and learning. Their Children are trained as they are and not taken off into rooms to make Macaroni Plates glidered with gold & silver metal flakes or any other things like that. They don't have rock concerts in their places of worship, not magic shows or loud blasting music and require you not to bring your bibles but to just mingle with each other. They try to imitate their Christ Jesus in all that they do. He always gave his Heavenly Father to glory while on earth, so do they. Since he is our mediator they do pray through Jesus Christ's name in order to have their prayers heard by our Heavenly Father as they know they are to imperfect to talk directly to him without Jesus Christ as our mediator. As workers they work as if it is for our Creator and not themselves in most everything they work at. They are politically neutral and keep it that way no matter what happens in the world because they are waiting on the Kingdom of God to rule over the earth rather than mankind ruling themselves. They consider themselves like a Watchman over a city. If they did not warn others they would be blood guilty. That is why the have a world wide preaching work which is almost completed and once it is then will be the end of wicked mankind. Some countries have labeled them as extremists and call them terrorist because of that label but living stickily by the bible as they do is not a terrorist but a True Christian whose whole life is dedicated to serving their Heavenly Father & Creator and his only-begotten Son, Christ Jesus. Most Pagan practices and teachings came out of Ancient Babylon including the Trinity, Cross, and many other false teachings and practices that have been slipped into false Christianity. The only ones I have found to date that do the way they are suppose to do scripturally is Jehovah's Witnesses. You find me someone who lives the bible everyday as they do and I will check them out myself. But you can not find any other faith that lives the bible as they do and are footstep followers of Our Heavenly Fathers only-begotten son, Christ Jesus. I have tried to find someone else who lives every aspect of True Christianity and yet have not found any other faith that meets to standards laid out in the bible and Given to us buy Jehovah God and his only-begotten Son, Christ Jesus as they do. The one big thing that they did was Translate a bible that is understandable and put's our Heavenly Fathers name back where it is suppose to be as close to accurately as they could. In the Hebrew Scriptures it was in the bible originally close to 7,000 times. Think about it, does that sound like a GOD who does not want his name to be used to you? It was suppose to be in Joel 2:32 which says "whoever calls on the name Jehovah will be saved." His name was replaced in most modern bibles, not all with a title, Lord or LORD. Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 quote Joel 2:32 so in places like that they put Jehovah back into the Christian Greek Scriptures. Doesn't it seem strange that not one copy of the Christian Greek Scriptures can be found in the first 200 years of Christianity? Papal Rome destroyed them all so as to hide God's name and put their Trinity Doctrine into the bible. It is over 200 places in the Christian Greek Scriptures just by putting it back where it was quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures and in other contexts that could only be our Heavenly Father. KJV has only three places his name was found. Psalms 83:18 and the New King James Version completely removed it. So if you do not know his name because it has been removed, how are you going to call on his name to be saved? Even John the Baptizer knew Jesus was the son of Jehovah God when he saw the Holy Spirit descend upon Jesus after he baptized him and John said so. To make Jesus into God as Papal Rome did is blasphemy. Jesus never claimed he was God. Papal Rome made that claim with their false Doctrine, the Trinity Doctrine. Also Jehovah Witnesses know what happens when you die. You have no more thoughts and you can not do any devising, dust to dust is it. Only those who have paid the price of sin and those who are worshipers of Jehovah God will be resurrected back to life in the last day. Hell, Sheol Hades, the common grave of mankind or just the grave is what happens when you die. Your dead. Anything other than that is from the demons and Satan who want you to believe his first lie that you will not die when you die. When you body dies, your soul dies with it. These scriptures back up what I said about the dead. Ecc. 9:5, 10; Gen. 3:19 Gehenna (The Valley of Henna) was the place they destroyed all the waste and condemned criminals with brimstone and sulfur. It even burned to bones to ashes so it is representative to permanent destruction which is the second death. Gehenna is where all the wicked are going when God's Kingdom come to the Earth soon. That is why it is so important to warn everyone so they have a chance to turn from doing what is bad in Jehovah God's eyes and repent and come to him and learn who he is and who his Only-begotten son, Jesus Christ is. Time is short so please turn around from doing what is bad ASAP. Jehovah God is not slow about destroying wicked mankind but patient because he want all to come to repentance and turn to him to survive. But once Babylon the Great is destroyed which is very soon the door to turn around, is closed. It is like the door to the Ark in Noah's time. Jehovah God closed that door and all those people yelling and pounding on the outside never got in afterwards. Only Noah and his family survived and all the animals Jehovah brought to the Ark. Noah was warning people for 40 years of the great flood. He was laughed at and ridiculed. We have been warning the whole world for more than twice that long and we also have been ridiculed and laughed at and slandered and you name. We had at our last memorial of Jesus Christ in attendance well over 18 Million people world wide. That is a small nation of all nations. Now some will want us dead because we tell the truth and they do not like to hear it but here is the good side of that even. If we die for the names of Jehovah and his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ, it is actually guaranteeing our resurrection. We do not want to be killed but as for myself, I can not turn away from serving him. The rest in the majority of the Jehovah's Witnesses feel the same way. I messed up but I repented and turn around from doing bad and I have no plans to mess up again in that way and I know most of Satan's traps now since I am much older and have seen a lot. I know his head trips now also. He just wont's you to do one act of worship to him and that is all. That is what he wanted from Jesus and offered him all the Nations if he did. Jesus never denied he had all the Nation's in his grip to offer them to him but he said it is to Jehovah God alone you must worship. No other gods. In Isaiah 42:8 Jehovah God said he does not share his glory with anyone. Jesus gave him all the glory and did not take it for himself. So when Papal Rome brought the Trinity Doctrine into the picture they blasphemed Jehovah God name by making other share his glory he alone gets. They down graded Jehovah God both by removing his name from the scriptures and when the truth be known Jesus himself said that his father is greater than he is. Why would they try to say Jehovah God and Jesus are God? As you can see in the Vatican, they have paganism all over that place, even the structure is pagan. It has the symbolism of Egypt in its construction with a obelisk even, as does Washington DC. Here is the biggest question. Why does Rothschild have the oldest copy of the bible from the Dead Sea Scrolls and will not share it with anyone? Because he is trying to change it, and if you saw it before he changed it, you would know the real truths. Especially John 1:1 which contradicts the rest of the bible. "The Word is a god". Not GOD.
Isaiah 9:6 General 6 For a child has been born to us,A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. John 1:18 General 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him. John 10:35, 36 General 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? (Note from me: see up above here is has Jesus even saying the Trinity is blaspheme because he is not GOD but his son and he even says so.) Philippians 2:5, 6 General 5 Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. So in conclusion I tell you this. I have yet to find a faith that follows the bible to the letter as I have found with Jehovah's Witnesses and if you know of one prove it. I want to see who follows the bible as close as Jehovah Witnesses do if not closer and with more accuracy than them in living what we are told to live in the bible? But you better hurry, because your time will be short also if you do not turn around from what is bad and repent. Also you have to get out of Babylon the Great the Harlot riding the Wild Beast. Babylon the Great is the empire of all false religion and false pagan worshiping Christianity. The Wild Beast is the United Nations. The Wild Beast that was before it was the League of Nations. Time is almost up for everyone to repent and turn to Jehovah God for salvation. Go to JW.org and start a study of the bible with them. You will learn the truth there. May Jehovah God shine his light on all of you so as to have you saved when that time comes which is very soon. Good Night and sorry for my lousy grammar. My worst subject in school. I aced most my tests in Electronic but can not write worth beans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HawkNo1 ( talk • contribs) 12:12, 12 October 2018 (UTC) |
See WP:WTRMT - Some neutrality-related templates, such as ...
![]() | The
neutrality of this article is
disputed. |
(associated with the neutral point of view policy), strongly recommend that the tagging editor initiate a discussion (generally on the article's talk page), to support the placement of the tag. If the tagging editor failed to do so, or the discussion is dormant, the template can be removed. There is no current discussion on this talk page as to what the neutrality problem(s) may be or how to address them, so I have removed the tag. Smeat75 ( talk) 02:21, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Christianity and Paganism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Frend":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 00:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
While I do not currently have time to fix this page up, I would like to recommend Barbara Percival's " From Paganism to Christianity" article on academia.edu as one of your sources. Best of luck, Wikipedians, in fixing this article up! Historyday01 ( talk) 18:52, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
Dragovit The info box was there to show where Cynegius' reign of terror was located. It is pertinent to the paragraph it is next to, and I personally think you should put it back. Jenhawk777 ( talk) 19:59, 1 December 2021 (UTC)