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I think a Christianity template on this page would be worthwhile like the great work on for the Islam template, however we desperately need help creating it. I have been debating with User:Stevertigo over how it should be done and am advocating we discuss what should be on the template on the template's talk page and creating the layout (which could very well be similar to {{Islam}} around it. He has merely changed words and attempted for direct equivalence between Islam and Christianity and even equated Crusade to Jihad which shows a clear lack of understanding of the concepts. Therefore it is my plea that some of the main editors of this article pool together to create a working template based on the concepts of Christianity and not the translation of Islamic ideas into supposed Christian equivalents. We should of course what for bias, however, we cannot go the route of the template as it is now shown (plus, green is used for the Islam template for a reason...) Please comment, please help. gren 05:36, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Someone has been inserting a bunch of subtle marketing plugs for Islam throughout the text which actually belong on the Islam page and some weird degrading emphasis on death by crucifiction in the intro which I corrected. I appreciate your attention to this Jayjg but I believe my points are valid. I cleaned this up .Thanks-- Achtung 01:42, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Christianity is an Abrahamic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as described in the New Testament. It is the world's largest religion.-- Achtung 17:04, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Someone has been inserting a bunch of subtle marketing plugs for Islam throughout the text which actually belong on the Islam page and some weird degrading emphasis on death by crucifiction in the intro which I corrected. Jayjg, these points seem quite reasonable, if you read those sections , it is quite obvious, as to the covert intent behind those. Likewise, the Islam page would not be the place to insert Christianity marketing plugs. The readers are better served with clean and well presented articles as opposed to propaganda. That is why I made those edits.-- Achtung 12:05, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1) Make the change gren mentions ie remove this statement:
2) The following statement is not consistent with growth numbers quoted elsewhere in Wikipedia
The islam page claims 1.4 % growth, which is it?? I propose that both pages reflect 1.4 % growth since that number is conspicuously documented in the various Wikipedia Islam related articles.
3) Islam is not a branch of Christianity nor an offshoot as the seriously non-NPOV and inacurate insertion in the following section claims :
The branches and boundaries of Christianity
-- Achtung 00:42, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You state Islam has clearly built on Christian belief, claims to be the successor to Christianity (or more accurately the original religion of Abraham, Jesus, etc.). In addition, it considers Jesus to be a prophet and the Messiah. Firstly your statement would imply that Islam believes it is a branch of Christianity and secondly if you want to stand by the claim that islam believes itself to be the original religion of Abraham then feel free to insert this claim in the Islam article.
This following statement is simply Islamic marketing: This was followed by the founding of Islam, in which Muhammed claimed to be the prophetic successor to Jesus sent to reestablish true God's religion following the corruption of the early church". Should we do the same in the Islam article , should we insert in the Islam article text that Christians believe that there is not path to God but through Jesus? -- Achtung 02:16, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think, Achtung, you are quite off the mark when you think the sentence of Islam is "Islamic marketing". It simply summarises in one sentence the Islamic position towards Jesus. The matter was actually a while back discussed in detail. Refdoc 15:54, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This was followed by the founding of Islam, in which Muhammed claimed to be the prophetic successor to Jesus sent to reestablish true God's religion following the corruption of the early church".
Not only does it does not fit within the context of the section The branches and boundaries of Christianity, it makes some rather arrogant allusions implying that Christianity is not "true God's religion" and is corrupt. The point has been made that some Muslims believe this, which they are entitled to do but if that is the case then it belongs in the Islam article, not here.
As Noam Chomsky so fondly keeps reminding us hypocrisy is the unwillingness to apply the same standard to oneself that one applies to others. Some of the people who have objected to my corrections oddly enough mirror my editorial position when its their own pet Wikipedia articles that are in question. You know who you are-- Achtung 23:18, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think Achtung, you really need to brush up your English. The sentence is absolutely clear in that this "true God's religion" is Muhammad's claim and not what Wikipedia "thinks". Incidentally it was me who has put the sentence there, I am an evangelical Christian and have little or no time for Muhammad's claims, though I find them curious enough to document them. And yes the sentence fits perfectly well in here as Islam does claim to be the true form of what the "Prophet Jesus" (and previous "prophets") brought, while current CHristianity is a corrupt form. This claim is not qualitative different to that of e.g. the J.W.s or the Mormons, in particular with regard to the corruptness of the main stream church and one's own utter and complete correctness. Just the same as those latter two Islam's claim is answered by being counted as "not one of us" among Christians. The interesting thing from this article's point of view is to establish a) that Christianity has doctrinal limits and boundaries, despite its often diffuse organisation (and doctrinal) form and b) these boundaries are often subjetc of intense debate. Islam has clearly crossed this boundary though Mohammad did try to establish himself as a prophet in the line of other Judeo-Christian prophets, while Mormons and JWs manage to keep still somewhat a foot in the door. Refdoc 23:52, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unless accompanioed by some discussion here I would think the change from divine persons to bodies is vandalism and not a valid edit. I am not aware of any Christian group/church/sect who believes in a three bodied God, but there is an ongoing "misunderstanding" by Islamic apologists who accuse Christians of polytheism Refdoc 16:00, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think the opposite is true form Christian theology POV - people are created in God's image. Our personhood is an image of God's. There is no reason to say the wrong thing only to make it "easier " to understand. Better add an explanation - which there is in the link to Trinity. And yes, while an "honest mistake" is a possibility wrt bodies, I doubt it. Refdoc 19:08, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Persons" is the term overwhelmingly used by Christians to describe the three 'parts' of the Trinity. 'Entities' certainly doesn't cut it, because an entity can be inanimate and non-sentient. Bodies is wrong (although understandable if 'body' was meant in the sense of corporate body rather than physical body). But body carries massively the wrong meaning. DJ Clayworth 14:56, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It angers me very much when many people accuse Christians of worshipping three gods. I think there is a way to explain the Trinity a lot better to people who are not familiar with the Christian faith. I was watching a program for Hal Lindsey on TBN, he used an example of a human being to describe the Trinity. For example if anybody were to describe a person by saying; that is his arm, that is his leg, that is his head, those are his eyes and ears. This does'nt mean that this person and all of those body parts are different single organisms, they're a part of the same body. The same goes for the Trinity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, are three spiritual elements of God combined into one.-- Gramaic 22:23, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I rolled back Stevertigo's change of "persons" to "personifications," which really doesn't make sense. "Persons" is the right word because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all persons; they relate to each other interpersonally, though that's not the best way to say it. "Person" is the English word that trinitarian Christianity has used consistently. Oh and gren, there is a single "Godhead," not three "God heads." Have the people proposing alternatives read the Trinity article recently? Wesley 04:34, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think it is a bit silly when we try here on Wikipedia to outperform several ecumenical councils and hundreds of years of attempts to get the definition just right by eminent Christian theologians. One God in three Persons appears to be the universally accepted formulation and should really simply be accepted even if this is hard to grasp a concept. There are whole religions set up to thrive on paradoxons - e.g. Zen-Buddhism, so do please leave us our own mystery, will you? Refdoc 08:25, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't get it , why are you perpetuating such obvious nonsense as Islam is branch of Christianity? The article is about Christianity , keep it on Christianity. If I wrote an article on Pizza I would not expect mini ads throughout the text about hamburgers, I would expect it to be about Pizza. -- Astrogoth 03:50, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What's the "true christian belief?" But, as far as my edit, Mormonism with its 11-12 million adherents hardly constitutes a "major world religion", especially when compared with Islam, with over 1.3 billion. Cory 04:44, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Exactly Gramaic. Only at the same time those people call themselves the true Christians, just as many other cults/heresies/schisms etc before them and as Islam does to to some degree. This is th whole point of the section. I am really not sure how often this needs to be said. And to my mind there is is absolutely no endorsement of any of these. But the debate who is a true Christian, including doctrinary statements by churches to delineate the "border" are a long ongoing history and continues until today. So there is more then enough reason to mention the JWs, Islam and Marcionism in one paragraph, to show the continueity of heresy. Formulate things better if youmust, but do not delete information. Thanks! Refdoc 08:18, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That said, my point was the removal of the very opinionated staement that the Mormon church is a major world religion. Major world religons include Islam, Christianity, Judaism (for reasons other than size), Buddhism, etc. Might as throw up any Christian sect and call it a major religion if it has as many or more adherents than the Church of LDS, or for that matter, why stop at just Islam, break it up into major world religion sects... sunni, shite... that'd be comprable to Mormon. I have no problem with the paragraph, just the propagada that's included.
And, as far as Islam goes, it's no more a "Christian off-shoot" than it is an off-shoot of Judaism, Sabiism, Hanifism or Zoroastrianism.
I would agree changing the bit about major world religion Mormonism is not one, I think there is ample consensus. This doe snot alter though the fact that Mormonism is a big(ish) religion/cult/denomination which claims to be the "better" Christians, while most other Christians will think exactly the opposite - exactly the kind of example we are looking here for. Refdoc 20:42, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No I absolutely do not agree with this suggestion, Cory, the examples are there to put a context to it. No one knows what Marcionism is, but everyone knows Islam and Mormons. I am not sure why on earth this has to be deleted? Refdoc 08:44, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Whoever did the latest change, its a step in the right direction. Cory 18:56, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Since this article is about Christianity, I was thinking that maybe we could include Christian organizations in the article. For example, if we were to make a list of Christian organizations we would include something like the Christian Coalition and many others. What does everyone think?-- Gramaic 08:01, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is an article about the teachings and history of Christianity, but not about American protestant organisations. There is abundant space in other articles for the organisations you want to add. Alternatively you can establishg an article on Christian organisations, or even better- a category - Christian organisatins which tie them altogether. Refdoc 08:46, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that the Crusades are not mentioned in the prosecution section, when it is one of the most notable instances of prosecution by Christians in history. It seems like a rather strange omission, but I'm not sure where to stick it in. Titanium Dragon 13:44, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The Crusades are not in the persecution section because the Crusaders were not persecutors, they were religious and humble Christians who left their home in Europe to fight and reclaim the Holy Land from the invading Muslims. So, all these accusations that the Crusaders were persecutors, invaders and murderers are just false claims. The real persecutors were (and still are) the Muslims.-- 66.81.173.34 21:52, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when a few references have been added to the article. - Taxman 18:36, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
Truly, it is an unholy shade of grey. I'd like it white, but I'm sure that change would be reverted instantly. ✈ James C. 04:14, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)
I was just curious as to how the number jumped to 2.2 billion, when on the Islam page you had links to both the CIA Factbook and US Dept of State showing Christianity (Catholocism and Protestantism) at 1.5 Billion and Islam at 1.48 Billion. If no one responds in a few days, I will change the numbers here and post the sources. MPA
I deleted the references to rationlizing that Islam is growing faster than Christianity, due to those countries having a higher birth rate. I do so because one 1) It is bigoted 2) There is no factual evidence to support it. 3) There is not enough evidence to determine what the conversion rate is and 4) In many of those countrys where Islam is supposed to have a higher birth rate, the acutal death rates are equal or even higher than the birth rates. -- mpa
It's pretty cumbersome for my little modem to handle. :) -- Randolph 00:47, 3 May 2005 (UTC) It is illogical to say that because you are born in a certain place your religion will be predictable. If you are born in a hospital that does not make you a doctor. Furthermore, even if your logic made any sense, you have failed to consider the entire latin population.
I removed the following paragraph:
"One of the major groups of these churches is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which preaches that the authority and truth that Jesus Christ established during his life were lost after many of his apostles were killed after his death and resurrection. Members of the Church believe that a Restoration of the truth and this authority was necessary and that such a Restoration began when Joseph Smith, Jr., who later founded the church in 1820, saw God and Jesus Christ in a vision. Smith reports that the heavenly beings called him by name and introduced themselves, telling him that he was to join none of the churches then in existance. He was later visited by other heavenly messengers, who gave him the Priesthood, believed not to be a person or group of people but the authority to act in the name of God. He also translated an ancient book of scripture written by religious leaders and followers of Jesus Christ who lived in the Ancient Americas, now known as The Book of Mormon. Members believe the book is a companion book of scripture to the Bible and that both testify of the life, mission, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ."
LDS is not a MAJOR group within Christianity. A major group has hundreds of millions of followers. At 12 million, the qualify for "large" at most. Either way, if they get a paragraph this size, then we'd need the same or larger for the Catholics, the Orthodox/Eastern Christian, etc. according to the following.
Major Denominational Families of Christianity (This table does not include all Christians. These numbers are estimates, and are here primarily to assist in ranking branches by size, not to provide a definitive count of membership.) Branch Number of Adherents Catholic 1,050,000,000 Orthodox/Eastern Christian 240,000,000 African indigenous sects (AICs) 110,000,000 Pentecostal 105,000,000 Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United 75,000,000 Anglican 73,000,000 Baptist 70,000,000 Methodist 70,000,000 Lutheran 64,000,000 Jehovah's Witnesses 14,800,000 Adventist 12,000,000 Latter Day Saints 12,500,000
http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html#Christianity
My sense is that this description is not quite as universally acknowleded as it suggests. Does this term even merit a section on its own? BrandonYusufToropov 14:20, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
It shouldn't be removed, just edited to specificy the degree to which applies for each of the major denominations. -- Jleon 19:38, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Please accept my apologies for not having the correct formats, etc - me noob. In my defense, please note I am only entering this in the 'talk' page. =P RE: "Excommunication is not a Catholic act, etc, etc." The problem with sweeping generalizations is that they are usually wrong. ;-) Excommunication is not practiced by all Christian faiths. Baptists, for example, do not practice excommunication. Baptists cannot be excommunicated because they were never "communicated" to begin with. Excommunication is the denial of the sacraments of the church, and therefore the denial of access to divine grace (see definition & citation, below). Baptists do not have sacraments, so it is impossible to withhold them. Some Baptist ministers will revoke church membership for individuals they feel are flagrantly offensive in their behavior (lewdness, public drunkenness, etc). However, this is only done in the most extreme of cases (hence the furor over a certain preacher in Waynesville, N.C. who was recently in the news), and it does not prohibit the individual from just going to another Baptist church down the block. Excommunication, however, implies the entire church organization rejects the supplicant from taking holy communion - for example, a Roman Catholic who is excommunicated at Saint Mary's can't just trot down the street to Saint Peter's and act like nothing's wrong. Being excommunicated is a serious and final step, it is never taken lightly, and the message is passed up and down the church hierarchy - he is *out* until he repents or dies (and goes straight to hell for being in the state of excommunication at death). DEFINITION AND CITATION: Excommunication (n) 1: the state of being excommunicated [syn: exclusion, censure] 2: the act of banishing a member of the Church from the communion of believers and the privileges of the Church; cutting a person off from a religious society [syn: excision] Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University. -- Xaa
A description of satan and the names Christ called him is important in understanding the Christian religion more completely. What is this thing satan that Jesus called the "prince of the world" ?
Well, according to that article anyway. I have just removed:
I am sure that anyone here who believes this should be free to incorporate such stunning conclusions into the relevant article on Judaism and Christianity (though this seems to be the driving force behind the Roots section in the History of Christianity article). Be aware that one contributor doesn't seem to think that this is POV. Anyone here should feel free to balance the text, as I'm positive that this is not what Jewish scholars would say. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:29, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
~~~~
You said: "Even the first commandment is not unambiguously monotheistic. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" seems implictly to accept the existance of other gods."
When gods is spelt with a lower-case g in The Bible it refers to gods that aren't real.
Deuteronomy 4:28 'There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.'
The first commandment God gave to the Israelites does NOT accept other 'Gods' but other 'gods' as in idols, anything really that is put in first position in a person's life can be considered to be their god, i.e. money, career, family, and even idols. The reason behind this first commandment is that God is to have first and only priority in a person's life, not that there are other celestial beings worthy of being worshipped.
I have made some tweaks on the intro. -- Astrogoth 03:51, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'd welcome other people's comments on this... -- G Rutter 07:31, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
-- Noitall 12:04, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
Is seems to me that the list of external sites at the end of this article should be more focused. For instance, the subsection "Christian sites" includes links that more properly belong under apologetics. Since this article is about the history, origins, and basic beliefs of Christianity, it seems to me that that same focus should apply to the links. (Sure, there is overlap here with apologetics, but most of the links should apply directly to the subject at hand.) I would also like to see more variety in denominations (Catholicism and Orthodoxy seem to be under-represented). The Catholic Encyclopedia is an obvious addition that would fit within a more focused, more ecumenical scheme. What do you think? -- Flex 13:19, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
But neutral and secular scholars and historians ... The conceits to which agnosticism can raise itself, continually astonish me. Mkmcconn (Talk) 5 July 2005 00:00 (UTC)
I have removed this twice:
I don't think we need to point folks to the other denominational pages, since we do elsewhere in the article. I also question the accuracy of the second sentence (the anonymous user who keeps posting this paragraph hasn't cited any sources). It's simple POV stuff, and I have removed it twice. Anyone else have an opinion? KHM03 5 July 2005 17:29 (UTC)
Removed POV paragraph for a third (and, for me, final) time, and also sent a polite message to the anonymous user asking him/her to review POV policies. No response from user. I'll leave the matter in the hands of the community. KHM03 5 July 2005 17:35 (UTC)
This paragraph just sort of strikes me as odd. Would there be objection to replacing this kind of idiosyncratic description of the beliefs of "the vast majority of Christians" with brief verbatim citations from one or more of the summations of Trinitarian faith - say, the Nicene Creed? Mkmcconn (Talk) 5 July 2005 19:56 (UTC)
This entire paragraph seems to be full of problems bordering on slander. Here's the paragraph, followed by a partial list of clear problems.
At the very least, this paragraph needs to be properly qualified or attributed as the one-sided perspective it is, if not deleted outright. Wesley 6 July 2005 04:58 (UTC)
This is a very strange section to me. I have heard of no scholar who has claimed that Islam developed from Christianity or that it developed from a Christian sect. I am going to remove this reference but if someone has an argument for it then please post it here. Heraclius 7 July 2005 03:06 (UTC)
I say you just remove the section. It lacks veracity and scholarly support. KHM03 7 July 2005 12:27 (UTC)
I did shorten the section. If you feel that it should be removed, then just do it yourself here. Heraclius 7 July 2005 16:00 (UTC)
It has been removed. Jim Ellis July 7, 2005 17:54 (UTC)
Several changes were made early July 7 which I reverted. These changes "compromised the previous work." Some were relatively harmless but duplicated information and botched the formatting. Other changes replaced the word "persons" with "beings" in describing the Trinity -- which is plainly incorrect and needed reversion. Jim Ellis July 7, 2005 12:18 (UTC)
Again, I ask...is this section necessary? Can't we just edit it down to a sentence or two and a link? And is there a way we can combine the "doctrine" and "beliefs" sections? KHM03 7 July 2005 17:37 (UTC)
The "beliefs" section is getting out of hand...no reason for a Protestant vs. Catholic fight. I'd like to edit it and reduce it for clarity and brevity, any ideas, input, or objections? KHM03 9 July 2005 14:50 (UTC)
Admittedly, not all of our edits are perfect (and we should admit it when someone improves upon our editing). But P0lyglut's are particularly bad, and he/she is unwilling to listen to reason and provide any justification for his/her edits contrary to Wiki policy. Also, P0lyglut has been reported for a 3RR violation, see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. Here are a few of the reasons these edits are bad:
Please, someone revert P0lyglut's edits. Thank you.
-- Noitall July 8, 2005 07:33 (UTC)
I can live with categorizing Anglican as "protestant," but it should be noted that Anglicanism, as a whole, considers itself a "middle way" between Protestantism as such and and Roman Catholicism, and many Anglicans would reject the label of "Protestant" entirely. This should be noted (and will be). However, the Assyrian Church of the East is completely distinct, being neither Roman Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.-- Midnite Critic 8 July 2005 21:02 (UTC)
I can live with the following. Hope y'all can too:
A more comprehensive overview would categorize Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East as branches distinct from the Chalecedonian Christianity of Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism, and Restorationism as a tradition separate from Protestantism, with which it is often placed. Additionally, Anglicanism overall regards itself as being at least as much akin to Roman Catholicism and the two branches of Orthodoxy as to Protestantism. -- Midnite Critic 8 July 2005 22:01 (UTC)
At best this statement is an incompetent conflation of the events related in the Gospel accounts. I previously corrected it; but another contributor took objection and changed it back. I have now restored my previous correction; and unless someone has a more accurate way of expressing the situation as represented in the Gospel accounts, I expect my version to stay. May I remind the learned contributors to this article of the rivers of blood that have been spilled of millions of people personally uninvolved in the events - including by my parents' generation, hence in living memory - owing to the misinterpretation of the accounts of the trial of Jesus. Portress 9 July 2005 00:18 (UTC)
After Jesus' death and resurrection (as described in the Bible) Jesus kept teaching and asked his disciples to spread his word. Christianity is based on his death as well since communion represents the partaking of his sacrifice (death in the cross). Belief on him as the Messiah is justified by his death (as prophesied by Isaiah resurrection (not human nature but divine). JC's death startes the spread of the Church. -- Vizcarra 10:21, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
There is no need to highlight some particular point of the New Testament's portrayal/account as being more doubtful than others. Mkmcconn (Talk) 17:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
There is no need to highlight some particular point of the New Testament's portrayal/account as being more doubtful than others. To say "account of ... resurrection" is not any less NPOV than "portrayal of a resurrection". Accounts can be false - as some think this one is. Portrayals of (a) crucifixion can be doubted (as some do). It adds clutter to the article to try to make particular doubts stand out, as more important than others. Mkmcconn (Talk) 17:27, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes, there is a difference, Jim. The difference is that, you want to highlight how especially doubtful you or some other people are, that the resurrection ever took place. This is unnecessary - the sentence does not assert that the event took place. It asserts that the New Testament portrays it as having taken place. You are focusing on the resurrection, but the other elements of the account are equally subject to doubt. There is no reason to highlight a favorite item as being more doubtable than the others. Mkmcconn (Talk) 18:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
No, it says it's a testimony. It's like when someone stands up in court and says "that guy did it". That's his testimony. You may not believe him, but its still his testimony. We have the New Testament and that's what it says. It would be reasonable if the sentence read "on the alleged testimony of the apostles.
In fact it would be better to ignore the clause completely and start the sentence with "Christians believe...". DJ Clayworth 20:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC) I also discover that the introduction makes no mention that Christians believe Jesus to be God. We had this conversation only a month or so ago, and it absolutely deserves to be there. Was there a reason it was taken out? DJ Clayworth 20:36, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
What does
add to this section? Are there other preserved teachings than those found in the NT that Xty is based on?-- JimWae 21:21, 2005 July 11 (UTC)
Christianity is a monotheistic religion developed from Judaism by the early followers of Jesus of Nazareth, based upon their beliefs about Jesus' life, teachings, death by crucifixion, and resurrection as presented in the New Testament. Notable in shaping Christian beliefs were Paul of Tarsus, the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great, Augustine of Hippo, ... -- JimWae 22:23, 2005 July 11 (UTC)
Which part of the first sentence is narrowing or particular?-- JimWae 23:31, 2005 July 11 (UTC)
Christianity is a monotheistic religion that originated with Jesus of Nazareth and his early followers, based upon their beliefs about Jesus' life, teachings, death by crucifixion, and resurrection as presented in the New Testament. With roots in Judaism, it branched off (mostly under the direction of Paul of Tarsus) and later expanded throughout the Roman Empire.-- JimWae 04:15, 2005 July 12 (UTC)
So, the first sentence is more acceptable than it was, no? Christianity is a monotheistic religion that originated with Jesus of Nazareth and his early followers, based upon their beliefs about Jesus' life, teachings, death by crucifixion, and resurrection as presented in the New Testament. With roots in Judaism, it branched off and later expanded throughout the Roman Empire. -- JimWae 06:15, 2005 July 12 (UTC)
SO the first sentence is no longer drawing objection. When one says something is rooted in something else, there is no implication that there was no major transformation later. If Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, if Jesus is the Messiah promised to the Jews in their scriptures, if the founders were all Jewish, then I think somewhere along the way (& maybe not in the lead, true, but maybe so) it is mentionable. But my main concern is the first sentence anyway. -- JimWae 07:24, 2005 July 12 (UTC)
I disagree fundamentally with the idea that 'The purpose of this sentence is to explain why Christianity is called "christianity"'. More people are likely to come to this article asking "what is Christianity" rather than "why is Christianity called that". No other articles on religious devote their opening paragraph to etymology. We should give a very brief description of what Christianity is in the opening para - and I think the idea that Jesus is considered to be God is important. DJ Clayworth 17:19, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
You have no idea who uses the term or why. Unless you can find some plausible source for your contention that it is non-Christians who use it etc., please stick to the facts we actually know, that the term is sometimes used. Jayjg (talk) 23:23, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Christianity falls within the Abrahamic tradition. To contend that Christianity is a "Christian" religion is redundant in the extreme. You may as well write that it is a "religious" religion. Wikipedia is not just for Christians.
Lapsed Pacifist
01:15, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
For the record, for those who have little knowledge about what they are editing (this won't change those who are intentionally causing trouble), here are Christian beliefs (in all these words, note how many times Abraham is mentioned):
What's the beef, Noitall? The "Abrahamic religion" statement was moved from the forefront of the introduction and qualified by the phrase "Christianity is sometimes referred to as", which is fact. I agree that Christianity does not refer to itself as an "Abrahamic religion" and that this term may be primarily used by secular scholars or Islam-ists in a way that tends to marginalize the Christian faith. Nevertheless a casual internet search will show it is quite common. This is not a "Christian page", it is supposed to be an encyclopedic description of Christianity from a neutral point of view. Regards, Jim Ellis 14:24, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
I am a Christian and have no problem with Christianity being referred to as "Abrahamic". It's not a term we normally use, but we do claim spiritual descent from Abraham. I don't understand what the fuss is all about, to be honest. KHM03 16:29, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Let me address a few of the issues now raised:
-- Noitall 01:50, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
It does not really matter whether I am offended or not by the subject of a particular passage. It also does not matter whether others on Wiki are offended. It is also irrelevant whether regular Christians are offended. Many Christians would not be offended by anything at all as long as they can uphold their own beliefs. They could care less what Wiki states. What offends me is a misleading and inaccurate characterization of Christian thought on Wiki, mostly to support a few people's POV. That is the only thing that matters. It is that simple.
You are right that there is more to Christianity than the Nicene crede. But the Nicene Crede is a good generalization of Christian thought for several reasons:
1. The Nicene Crede is a 1700 year old source that is the foundation of Christian beliefs,
2. The Nicene Crede is the essence of Christianity, as it was constructed by the founders of Catholicism and Orthodoxy and, later, Protestantism was founded because they believe such older religions did not sufficiently focus on this aspect of Christianity,
3. Abraham is only one part of the bible as a whole, and there is no reason to single out one section of Genesis for POV reasons unrelated to Christianity (in fact, if editors were to continue such a focus, it is far more accurate to call it a " Davidian religion") and
4. the Bible as a whole, particularly the Old Testiment, creates many avenues of belief with Christianity, specifically because they are not related to the essence of Christianity.
-- Noitall 22:14, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
-->Let's see . . . I am the one with the sources and you failed to address any of my arguments, and you think I am the irrational one? -- Noitall 01:16, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
Christians' opinions and beliefs will be acknowledged in the article on Christianity (as there is no "Christian page" on Wikipedia). It is not necessary that this exclude other opinions of Christianity, or that those of Christians should automatically take precedence.
Lapsed Pacifist 01:36, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I will continue to favor accuracy and truth, but I suppose I will continue to be opposed by some who disagree with this. On your point, just in this section, I made the same statement approximately 4 times: the opinions and beliefs of Christians ought to be acknowedged on the Christian page. To do otherwise is misleading and inaccurate. -- Noitall 02:30, July 14, 2005 (UTC) And, BTW, on your smart statement (used to avoid addressing the issue here), I know it is too much to assume that other editors on this page know that the Christianity page is a page about the religion of Christians, but I guess it needs to be stated nevertheless. -- Noitall 02:38, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
In view of the contentiousness of this point, it is questionable whether it is appropriate to include this statement in its present form, namely "it is sometimes called...". Unless those who express themselves in this way are mentioned here by name, it will remain forever a source of misunderstanding, hence a bone of contention. Note also that a link to "Abrahamic religion" has been made, which presumably therefore was intended by the original contributor of this assertion to act as his/her authority. See furthermore the entry "People of the Book". So I am unlikely to be the only one that draws the conclusion from these two Wikipedia articles that there are Muslims who are taking this view. If there are no Muslims who take this view, it is unfair on Muslims to make the link to "Abrahamic religion", and unfair on Christians to let them think this of Muslims. For my part, I have no problem with (a) Christians being numbered among the People of the Book, i.e. the Bible, because even today a large number of us still believe in the truth of the Holy Bible, and (b) Abraham being our father in the faith, which is an important issue in the Gospel. Portress 07:45, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Noitall added this text: "Although the essential beliefs of Christians are generally described in the Nicene Creed, and thus they generally do not view themselves as a part of an 'Abrahamic religion', (sic) they incorporate the texts of the Old testament in their lessons." S/he seems to feel that it is unjust that we removed it, but it is possible that s/he is simply using the term "Abrahamic Religion" in a technical way unique to Muslims rather than the generic way found in the article Abrahamic religion. While nearly all major Christian denominations adhere to the Nicene Creed, it is not a complete summary of their teaching. Just because Abraham is not mentioned in the creed doesn't mean that they do not view him as their spiritual forebear.
All Christians (and I speak as one of them) consider themselves spiritual children of Abraham because that is what the New Testament calls them (see Galatians 3, especially vv. 7,14,29). In Romans 11:13-24, Paul uses the analogy of a an olive tree. Each branch represents a descendent of Abraham and an heir to his promise, and the Gentiles are grafted into this tree among the natural (i.e. Israelite) branches -- in other words, Paul views the Gentiles as being part of the same faith as Abraham. Many Christians do not view the Old Testament merely as lessons, and moreover, they view Abraham as part of the Christian Church before the coming of Christ. (Christians who hold to Covenant theology have an even greater affinity with Abraham than dispensationalists who disconnect the physical people of Israel from the spiritual Christian church.) In that sense, I maintain that Noitall's sentence above is inaccurate. -- Flex 21:14, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
-- Noitall 05:18, July 28, 2005 (UTC)
According to the the previous version of the article, a basic "Christian belief is that the NT is part of the Bible". This is not a belief, since the Bible was put together by scholars. It is a point of view, rather. -- Vizcarra 01:27, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Response: This article is a mess, and I'm staying out of it for the time being; however, from a Jewish perspective, it is indeed a Christian BELIEF that the New Testament is part of the Bible, regardless of who put it together; for Judaism, the NT is not part of the Bible.-- Midnite Critic 02:41, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Midnite Critic is correct, this article is expressly about beliefs. Address the history in the appropriate section. -- Noitall 03:51, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
DJ Clayworth, you wrote: We should give a very brief description of what Christianity is in the opening para - and I think the idea that Jesus is considered to be God is important.
The opening paragraph does do that (very briefly and generally) and one of the ideas that is implied is, that Jesus is believed to be God - although this, and other specific beliefs are not expanded on, there. Do you really think that they should be expanded here? Doesn't that become messy?
I don't disagree with you that the belief that Jesus is God is important. I'm only wondering where this ought to be explained. In my opinion, it's better under Beliefs - and what we should find in that section is an expansion of what's said in the opening paragraph (which right now suggests that it will deal with the "life, teachings, death by crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth as portrayed in the New Testament writings of his early followers."). Mkmcconn (Talk) 18:42, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
On another issue that you mentioned, above, if you'll look at Islam and Vedas, you'll find that an explanation of the name is prominent in their opening paragraphs. Judaism, Jew and Buddhism move this kind of etymological discussion down in the article. I'm not insisting on either approach; I'm only saying that it's not unusual to think that people might want to know where the name, "Christianity" comes from. It helps to explain what the religion is about. I won't lobby for including a sentence about etymology. Mkmcconn (Talk) 18:42, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Dear Jayig, thank you for correcting me on this point. I had made the edit on the strength of what Muslims are telling me and failed to realise that this may not be true without qualification. My apologies. In the circumstances, is there not also a problem with the Wikipedia articles People of the Book and Abrahamic religion in this respect? Portress 07:53, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
I hesitate to ask, as these debates seem to go nowhere, and focus on minutiae: User:Noitall, why should it not be mentioned that Christianity is sometimes called an Abrahamic religion because of the belief that Jesus fulfills the prophecy given to Abraham? Mkmcconn (Talk) 21:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
It appears the last edit by Noitall, left the "Abrahamic religion" clause in place. It looks fine to me as is. Regards, Jim Ellis 23:51, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
(Former title: "Re: "Doctrine" edits by Jim Ellis & ProtractedSilence + Catholic v Protestant")
Dear Jim,
I see that you removed material in the doctrine section in response to the additions by ProtractedSilence.
However, you also removed a small, but important addition edit by myself. Please review my edits history here, before you make a decision to remove my material.
(Because of 1 & 2, above, I replaced that portion of my edit that was missing.) I also see that you have training in Bibilcal matters; I too have similar training, but informally: I have read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
In addition, a similar issue came up on a related page, in which User:JimWae made some adjustments to my edit, shortening it a little bit. However, here is something you might find interesting: In the Wikipedia article, Jesus, on a similar topic, here at [ this diff at 18:07, 23 July 2005, we see not only JimWae's edit, but also a section differentiating the Catholic beliefs from Protestant ones. Since I don't know everything about Catholic beliefs, I did not add that to this article, but here is the full comment with the edit, in case you want to look into this and/or consider adding something about the Catholic beliefs about works vs faith. (Since you are a specialist in religion, I hope you can be helpful here. Thanks.) OK, here's the diff, but with footnote links omitted for brevity - see article for details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Jesus&diff=19454192&oldid=19452122
Christianity - paragraph about faith & good works & which is necessary - not about miracles, nor is performing miracles necessary for salvation
Protestant Christians generally believe that faith in Jesus is the only way to receive salvation and to enter into heaven, and that salvation is a gift given by the grace of God. Although most members of the various Christian denominations believe that faith in Jesus is necessary (based upon John 3:16) passage, good works are certainly expected <!--by whom? & does God need evidence of "what is in our hearts"?-->. Jesus says (John 13:15) that his life was given as an example or role model for followers. In contrast, Roman Catholics believe that even non-Christians can receive the grace needed for salvation if they live a just life. 1 2 The Lutheran position on justification is nearly identical 3
-- GordonWattsDotCom 04:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your explanation in your edit summary, Jim, (e.g., "Doctrine - this is unnecessary and not in keeping with the rest of the article") and also, thank you for leaving in and not deleting some of my contributions; however, I wish to ask for more feedback all the same.
My post here relates to the Christianity#Doctrine section of the article. Below, I wish to comment on these two diffs: my recent edit here, "Revision as of 04:23, 27 July 2005" and Jim's more recent edit here, "Revision as of 11:53, 27 July 2005".
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You're asking for a third opinion and here it is. The red text above is too verbose for this article. I agree it provides source, but it just reads too long. It would be appropriate in an article on Faith and Works in Christianity, but not here. DJ Clayworth 13:18, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I am satisfied that the prior discussion immediately above improved the quality of the article, and I am satisfied for the teamwork that was offered here.
However, I am still left with a feeling that the article still has glaring omissions of "main points" of the faith.
For example, it is inarguably true that salvation by faith is the most important point of "Christianity." However, we recall that the beliefs of that faith also mandate that "Faith without works is dead." (Paraphrase of James 2:17) Therefore, the article, while correct in mentioning how other religions rely on works alone is good, omits any mention of the fruit of works, so to speak.
In fact, I did a "Key word search" of the page (Edit --> "Find on this page"), and the word "works" only appears once in the entire page! (In the Christianity#General_on-line_sources section, we find this: "The Christian Classics Ethereal Library, containing the works of a wide spectrum of authors in doctrine, history, devotion, and Bible commentary")
Therefore, it is safe to say that this major Christian doctrine is underrepresented. (The article is about the Christian faith, not about other faiths, so mention of their beliefs in "works alone" to contrast is good, but "treatment of other faiths' beliefs" should not be more preeminent than "treatment of Christianity's beliefs" in how the article addresses this doctrine in Christianity: If faith is dead without works, then it surely is a "main" doctrine, not a "pet project," as Jim said earlier and thus must be mentioned somewhere in the main article.)
That leads me to address some of the points made earlier that I somehow overlooked in the haste to address the points on which we all agreed:
1 - First, Jim said this earlier: ...what follows is a listing of basic tenets such as the Trinity, virgin birth, etc. which should not be preceded by your little pet project on the role of "works." My comments: As far as calling it a "pet project" versus a "main doctrine," I addressed that earlier. However, I would take issue with the logic that Jim uses here: He says that my edit addition was not good because the other "main points" of the doctrine were preceded by your little pet project on the role of "works." This is bad logic because is implies that anything that precedes the basic tenets is not acceptable if it is not a part of these basic tenets; however, we know this to be flawed because a large section of the article, not specifically describing the basic tenets precedes this section, yet I don't see him objecting to those additions. (He did not raise objection until I specifically pointed out that the green additions were mine, making me wonder if he was merely suspicious of the additions because they came from a new editor, but I will not accuse him of this, because he did offer an explanation, and I am not equipped to read minds: I will give the benefit of the doubt.)
1(a) - Above, I addressed why Jim's logic was bad, but here in 1(a), I will assume that he meant immediately preceding, and that his logic was good. In that case, one solution to adding comments about "good works," would be to place them below, that is after, not before, the "basic tenets," which would place the new text right after the "Christian Love" section.
2 - DJ Clayworth suggests that my initial additions in red were "too verbose for this article [and that] it just reads too long." I will assume he is right, because on my 2nd reading, it did look a bit long. Therefore, any suggestion I make will surely be brief & to the point.
3 -He also suggests that "It would be appropriate in an article on Faith and Works in Christianity" Comment: It would be unreasonable to make an entire article on one single main tenet of any particular faith.
4 - Flex suggests that "The bits about faith and works might fit at Justification (theology)," but I looked at this section: Justification has to do with salvation, not works, and I wouldn't feel right about trying to squeeze it into there.
5 - Just to show you that I was thinking and making an effort, I did look at an article about Sanctification, and article looked promising, but upon closer inspection, it had less to do with works, and more about being "set apart for special use or purpose" (like good works). Ouch! I tried, really...
6 - Flex suggests this: in an article on good works (such an article should also discuss the Roman Catholic doctrines of merit and so forth). Good idea. I will take a stab at addressing it.
7 - Mkmcconn makes this observation: "This is such a colorful discussion :-) My feeling is that it is hard to pick out a single issue as being uniformly held to be more important, or different from all other religions." Thank you: I agree that is hard to show any single issue as being more important in the tenets or beliefs, if that is what you meant. Thus, I am sure that my suggestions, no matter what they are, will receive mixed reactions. (This is a segue to my two proposed solutions.)
My first proposed solution would be to place the proposed addition right after the paragraph on "Christian Love" within the Christianity#Doctrine subsection. This makes sense, because "Christian Love" is in the motivating force for "Good works," or, conversely, "Good works" is evidence of "Christian Love."
My second solution might not be easily accepted by Mr. Ellis (who thought of this main tenet as a "pet project"), because I will suggest that my addition be placed directly within the basic tenets section, because, as we have been reminded: This faith describes "Faith without works" as being dead. It doesn't get any worse than this, so "works" must be an important element of the doctrine of Christianity, the main title of this article space. Thus, the idea that this is merely a "pet project" must either be proved or rejected to address my proposal to identify this as another (probably the 2nd most important) main belief or tenet of Christianity. Jim, I am trying to explain my reasoning, and have tried to have open ears, so I am asking that you do the same; Thank you in advance for your thoughtful consideration.
I am going to try to be brief with my actual edit and/or proposal, but below I shall leave a larger section from with to draw ideas and information:
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What I may do is add a proposed text in the article, and refer the other editors to talk, because waiting for feedback is very slow; If I mess up, you can delete my addition and discuss what I did; Trust me: I'm not going to start a Holy War or be disrespectful to the faith of Christianity: I've read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and myself am a believer of this faith, so I hope to present factual information for the reader, without forcing any one POV. The "source material" above can't all fit in the article, in all likelihood, so rest assured that my edit will be only part of this.
-- GordonWattsDotCom 23:22, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
UPDATE: I just spoke with my father, and he thinks that "works" is a central theme of Christianity, and that this article should include it. My father, Robert Watts, who runs the Bobby Watts Engine Parts, here in Lakeland, Florida, and who has both read the Bible from cover-to-cover, like myself, -and who is a personal friend of Drag Racing great, "Big Daddy" Don Garlits, also from the Tampa Bay area of Florida -said that "faith without works is dead," after I had already made the minor edit, suggesting that we had independently thought that this was a central theme of Christianity; I think it's the 2nd most important theme, 2nd only to Salvation. (My father made these comments, not Don Garlits; just to clarify.)
Regarding the additions that suggest the Catholic and Lutheran faiths think that living a just life alone is sufficient, I did not include them, because I don't personally believe that they don't believe this, but others have suggested or allowed this to be claimed. Therefore, I left in that section in my "proposal" above so those more familiar with Catholic or Lutheran can determine what needs to be added there.
Therefore, I made a minor edit, however, excluding claims about the Catholic & Lutheran beliefs that I believed are incorrect.-- GordonWattsDotCom 02:18, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Comment on current issue: Regarding Jim Ellis' very recent edit of the section on which Jim Wae and I have edited, I wanted to give feedback: After I pulled out the magnifying glass and looked closely at it, I think Mr. Ellis did a good job; Thank you.
He appears to have separated the previously conflated (intertwined) duel issues of faith and works well, to satisfy Jim Wae's concern, and I am satisfied that the main points are there.
I am Gordon Watts, and I approve this message.-- GordonWattsDotCom 15:54, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to disrupt the Faith vs Works controversy, but "Salvation from the wrath of God" is by no means a universal Christian belief. Many Christians would hold that what we are saved from is SIN or DAMNATION or CORRUPTION, rather than God's wrath. To quote the Orthodox writer Kallistos Ware, "While the wrath of God is certainly a biblical concept, it seems to me that it is nothing more than the love of God; those who do not accept God's love feel it as wrath. The gates of Hell, as C. S. Lewis put it, are locked on the inside." JHCC (talk) 18:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I deleted the words "(Latin for "God become flesh") " following the mention of the belief that Jesus was "God incarnate" because both words are English.
Wikipedia is meant to be neutral. People interested in an article are generally those supportive of it, and therefore may not have a neutral point of view, as the user below makes clear in his post "Lack of neutrality"
I'm finding it a bit tedious that this page is being continually vandalised by fundamentalist Christians who want to pretend that there are no criticisms of Christianity by burying everything away in the "Links" section.
If you can have a huge section about persecution of Christians (and how often are Christians persecuted in contemporary society?), then you also need a section on Criticism of Christianity. To remove this section is an act of intellectual vandalism.
It only goes to prove what some of the critics of Christianity say that it is trying to actively suppress truth by ignoring and suppressing the reality of criticism.
You can argue against criticism but you can't pretend it is not an important part of an article on this subject.
I reproduce the moderated section below - NB and this is one that was watered down by Christians anyway, all references made to homosexuality, to the pope's role in the AIDs crisis, to the church's role in the Rwandan genocide were removed.
Criticisms of Christianity
Critics of Christianity have included philosophers, journalists, scientists and other people from all walks of life. Some have argued that Christianity can be an intolerant religion. Bertrand Russell argued that "the puritanism of Christianity has played havoc with the moderation that an enlightened and tolerant critical spirit would have produced." Voltaire said that "of all religions, Christianity is without a doubt the one that should inspire tolerance most, although, up to now, the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men"
Some critics, such as Richard Dawkins argue that Christianity has sought to suppress rational enquiry and hence the quest for truth. He cites the story of Doubting Thomas from the Bible and argues that the Bible actively discourages believers from making rational enquiries about their faith. Dawkins has said that he is against religion "because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world."
Some critics have argued that the Bible's insistence on absolute right and wrong have led misguided people to fight wars on the basis of that religion, such as the Crusades. Linguist and political radical Noam Chomsky, for example, has argued that the Bible "is one of the most genocidal books in history." George Monbiot has also argued that Christian fundamentalists are driving the United States's current foreign policy, to the detriment of all concerned. [4]
This section doesn't seem to be as neutral as the wikipedia articles I'm used to. It looks to me as if there is so much effort being put into satisfying the Christian editors that there's a sense of taboo in mentioning information contradictory or offensive to Christians. Almost all of the historical information is presented as fact, and it feels like a zealous Christian is telling me about his religion whilst trying as hard as he can to restrain his bias. Here are some suggestions for editing:
China is officially athiest and currently holds the largest population of athiests in the world.
LDS and Mormons are the exact same thing. Why are they portrayed as seperate groups??
I think somebody brought this up before, but the statistic of the global population of Christians seems a bit exaggerated.
Who wrote this? Christ is not "derived" but is the literal Greek word "χριστος" (Christos) which means "anointed". This sentence is completely inaccurate.
This is what I'm talking about. This sounds like a zealous Christian having an orgasm while preaching what he perceives as the divine knowledge that will hopefully end up saving some "lost-soul" who happens to be reading. There are way too many quotes from the bible here. The reader just wants information on what Christians believe. If he wanted information like this, he'd be reading the bible. A simple description of what they believe will suffice. For example: "In addition to "one true god" and "the holy ghost", Christians also believe in such mythological creatures as angels, devils, demons, and the evil quasi-god "Satan". If this kind of information is offensive to Christians, add a note explaining that the mention of certain aspects of the religion is taboo. In summary, more information, less bible excerpts!
The usage of the word "god" on this page also bothers me. In several places, it is used with the assumption that it is the only god and that it is the same god as that of the reader. It should be replaced with "their god" or even by its name, like "Yahweh", "Jehovah", or "Jah". It should also be mentioned that the infallible name of the Jewish (and therefore, Christian) god is not widely known by Christians.
There should also be a whole section devoted to criticism. There is simply not enough of it, and the criticism that does exist is extremely mild.
Sorry for the long post, but I hope it improves an already great website.-- 67.177.36.200 19:31, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Good point. I wasn't really trying to ridicule the article, even though I realise it definitely came out that way. I'm just saying that the overall impression left is less than unbiased. It wasn't the quoting that I was objecting to, but the overuse of quoting. A descriptive sentence quoting relevant clauses and such should be enough, but a whole paragraph of religious redundancy seems a bit too much.
Compare to:
Which sounds easier to understand? I hope my point is taken into consideration. And about the Mormons, how are they different from LDS? I live in Salt Lake City, so that sounds somewhat ludicrous to me. "LDS" and "Mormon" are basically interchangeable as adjectives, even by Mormons themselves. You might mean that The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is different from Mormons as a whole because many polygamous Mormons don't follow the Church, but they are by no means seperate groups.-- 67.177.36.200 13:11, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
67 dot 177, I realize that Mormon and LDS are ordinarily treated as being identical. However, there are numerous groups which came out of the Latter-day Saint movement, which have no affiliation with the Utah Mormons at all. The consensus adopted by LDS and other religious editors on Wikipedia has been to refer to these other groups as LDS, unless they reject identification with the movement. See List of Christian denominations#Mormonism/Latter Day Saints for an example of how this approach works out. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 17:58, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
That is true. Many of the groups that came out of the LDS movement are not affiliated at all with mainstream mormons, and in fact some of the groups (such as the "Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints Church of Christ") have been denounced as cults. user:lucavix
A note on this friend, though my parents were Catholic, I was partly raised Jewish, and I can assure you that the Aramaic word for "Anointed One" and the words for "Anointed by God" are where the word Messiah comes from. So if Christ is derived from a word that means anointed, that word would be interchangable with Messiah. Of course I agree with your initial point, this article does seem written with... Well lets say a Christian slant. Initially the Persecution section, for example, only portrayed Christians as the victims of persecution and completely omitted things like the Crusades, of course then someone swung too far in the other direction. Actually there's an exchange going on right now about rather or not the clear and obvious bias by some christian denominations against homosexuals and atheist should be noted. I say it should because said persecution occurs in the United States largly on an individual (but religiously motivated) basis, but some seek to deny that persecution by christians can occur. -- User:LucaviX 15:21, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
I had not been a christian for some 20 years, but I gave little thought to it. I had never called myself an atheist, though by a purely semantic sense I was one, but I had always called myself a secularist and an agnostic. My parents were once catholic, members of a church that regularly baptized newborns, but my father had passed away and my mother had been a self proclaimed deist for some time. We had a small discussion regarding the statistics presented by the catholic church one afternoon, spurred into such a discussion by the passing of Pope John Paul the Second, and she said "Somehow I doubt the numbers are quite accurate." As we watched Chris Matthew my mother had the idea to check in with the old church, to see if we were still counted as members. A few days later, the phone rang, and my mother informed me that her and I both were still listed on the roster, along with my departed father. It took quite a bit of doing to get our names removed, and so I wonder, how many dead people are still being counted as members of the catholic church? How many members listed on the roster are now of other religions? How many, like myself, are of no religion at all? user:lucavix
Two additions were made to the article by user:203.160.1.70. This user started three sections, with headings - Criticism of Christianity, Christianity and Homosexuality, and Christianity and HIV AIDS. He/she started work on the first two sections, but left the third heading as a heading with no text to follow. I found the edits problematic for several reasons. The Criticism of Christianity was a misnomer, because it was actually Christians that were being criticized. The criticism was given in a people-think-Christians-are-like-this way, with no reference, no source, nothing to identify the people who criticize Christians thus. The next section seemed to confuse traditional Christian teaching on homosexual inclination with traditional Christian teaching on homosexual actions, stating that Christian practice regards homosexuality as "fundamentally wrong". It continued by referring to the "critics" who believe that Christians are not tolerant because they persecute homosexuals. There were no examples given of this "persecution"; nor were the "critics" identified in any way. No reference, no quotation, nothing. It seemed to be simply the unsourced opinion of the user in Australia. The third section, on AIDS, was not added, so we were left with a heading for a section, but no section. After twenty minutes, I reverted. User:203.160.1.69 reinserted it over four hours later. Actually, he/she reinserted part of of it in two different places. I also received a message on my talk page from user:203.210.203.204, saying that to delete that section was "little short of vandalism".
I am assuming (after checking here) that the three IP addresses are from the same user. I am replying here as it is obviously not a static address, and that user may have a different address by now. I am sorry if I have stepped on anyone's toes. I would just like to make it clear that I do not object to a section on criticism, but, in order to follow Wikipedia policy, such a section would have to give sources for the criticism, and, if possible, give some responses from Christian churches. It can't be just critics think that Christians are intolerant and narrow minded and that they are responsible for the spread of AIDS, etc.
So, Anon, if you want a section on criticism, perhaps you could discuss it on the talk page first. (I admit I reverted without discussion, but I was bringing the article back to what it had been, and I did explain in the edit summary, particularly the second time.) Can you give sources and references for these unnamed critics? I have no doubt at all that these critics exist, but phrases such as "critics say" are best avoided on Wikipedia. Regarding the HIV section, I don't think it's a good idea to insert a heading for a new section into an article unless you are going to insert the actual text for the section within the next few minutes. People sometimes do that on talk pages, so that they won't "lose" anything if the computer misbehaves, but it's better not to do it in an article. Thanks. Ann Heneghan (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I have noticed that there is a lot of information in here that relates only to Catholicism. While that religion is very close to Christianity, it should not be labeled as such and does not fit with this article. Now I know this article is probably just referring to the very well-known religions that are close to what true Christianity is, but close is not on target. If it's right to say that Christians believe the Bible, than I would say that this article should be changed to be in line with what the Bible has to say, because that's where Christians get their belief system from right? And if one wants to follow the Bible because that's where the Christian beliefs come from, than one must remember this verse...
Revelation 22:18,19 (www.biblegateway.com; NIV) "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
Anyways, do you think anyone would mind if I did a little changing around? I'm not trying to get anyone to convert to Christianity, but I don't want people to get confused as to what Christianity is from a historical standpoint. Let me know what you think! - unsigned
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I think a Christianity template on this page would be worthwhile like the great work on for the Islam template, however we desperately need help creating it. I have been debating with User:Stevertigo over how it should be done and am advocating we discuss what should be on the template on the template's talk page and creating the layout (which could very well be similar to {{Islam}} around it. He has merely changed words and attempted for direct equivalence between Islam and Christianity and even equated Crusade to Jihad which shows a clear lack of understanding of the concepts. Therefore it is my plea that some of the main editors of this article pool together to create a working template based on the concepts of Christianity and not the translation of Islamic ideas into supposed Christian equivalents. We should of course what for bias, however, we cannot go the route of the template as it is now shown (plus, green is used for the Islam template for a reason...) Please comment, please help. gren 05:36, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Someone has been inserting a bunch of subtle marketing plugs for Islam throughout the text which actually belong on the Islam page and some weird degrading emphasis on death by crucifiction in the intro which I corrected. I appreciate your attention to this Jayjg but I believe my points are valid. I cleaned this up .Thanks-- Achtung 01:42, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Christianity is an Abrahamic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as described in the New Testament. It is the world's largest religion.-- Achtung 17:04, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Someone has been inserting a bunch of subtle marketing plugs for Islam throughout the text which actually belong on the Islam page and some weird degrading emphasis on death by crucifiction in the intro which I corrected. Jayjg, these points seem quite reasonable, if you read those sections , it is quite obvious, as to the covert intent behind those. Likewise, the Islam page would not be the place to insert Christianity marketing plugs. The readers are better served with clean and well presented articles as opposed to propaganda. That is why I made those edits.-- Achtung 12:05, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
1) Make the change gren mentions ie remove this statement:
2) The following statement is not consistent with growth numbers quoted elsewhere in Wikipedia
The islam page claims 1.4 % growth, which is it?? I propose that both pages reflect 1.4 % growth since that number is conspicuously documented in the various Wikipedia Islam related articles.
3) Islam is not a branch of Christianity nor an offshoot as the seriously non-NPOV and inacurate insertion in the following section claims :
The branches and boundaries of Christianity
-- Achtung 00:42, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You state Islam has clearly built on Christian belief, claims to be the successor to Christianity (or more accurately the original religion of Abraham, Jesus, etc.). In addition, it considers Jesus to be a prophet and the Messiah. Firstly your statement would imply that Islam believes it is a branch of Christianity and secondly if you want to stand by the claim that islam believes itself to be the original religion of Abraham then feel free to insert this claim in the Islam article.
This following statement is simply Islamic marketing: This was followed by the founding of Islam, in which Muhammed claimed to be the prophetic successor to Jesus sent to reestablish true God's religion following the corruption of the early church". Should we do the same in the Islam article , should we insert in the Islam article text that Christians believe that there is not path to God but through Jesus? -- Achtung 02:16, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think, Achtung, you are quite off the mark when you think the sentence of Islam is "Islamic marketing". It simply summarises in one sentence the Islamic position towards Jesus. The matter was actually a while back discussed in detail. Refdoc 15:54, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This was followed by the founding of Islam, in which Muhammed claimed to be the prophetic successor to Jesus sent to reestablish true God's religion following the corruption of the early church".
Not only does it does not fit within the context of the section The branches and boundaries of Christianity, it makes some rather arrogant allusions implying that Christianity is not "true God's religion" and is corrupt. The point has been made that some Muslims believe this, which they are entitled to do but if that is the case then it belongs in the Islam article, not here.
As Noam Chomsky so fondly keeps reminding us hypocrisy is the unwillingness to apply the same standard to oneself that one applies to others. Some of the people who have objected to my corrections oddly enough mirror my editorial position when its their own pet Wikipedia articles that are in question. You know who you are-- Achtung 23:18, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think Achtung, you really need to brush up your English. The sentence is absolutely clear in that this "true God's religion" is Muhammad's claim and not what Wikipedia "thinks". Incidentally it was me who has put the sentence there, I am an evangelical Christian and have little or no time for Muhammad's claims, though I find them curious enough to document them. And yes the sentence fits perfectly well in here as Islam does claim to be the true form of what the "Prophet Jesus" (and previous "prophets") brought, while current CHristianity is a corrupt form. This claim is not qualitative different to that of e.g. the J.W.s or the Mormons, in particular with regard to the corruptness of the main stream church and one's own utter and complete correctness. Just the same as those latter two Islam's claim is answered by being counted as "not one of us" among Christians. The interesting thing from this article's point of view is to establish a) that Christianity has doctrinal limits and boundaries, despite its often diffuse organisation (and doctrinal) form and b) these boundaries are often subjetc of intense debate. Islam has clearly crossed this boundary though Mohammad did try to establish himself as a prophet in the line of other Judeo-Christian prophets, while Mormons and JWs manage to keep still somewhat a foot in the door. Refdoc 23:52, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unless accompanioed by some discussion here I would think the change from divine persons to bodies is vandalism and not a valid edit. I am not aware of any Christian group/church/sect who believes in a three bodied God, but there is an ongoing "misunderstanding" by Islamic apologists who accuse Christians of polytheism Refdoc 16:00, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think the opposite is true form Christian theology POV - people are created in God's image. Our personhood is an image of God's. There is no reason to say the wrong thing only to make it "easier " to understand. Better add an explanation - which there is in the link to Trinity. And yes, while an "honest mistake" is a possibility wrt bodies, I doubt it. Refdoc 19:08, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Persons" is the term overwhelmingly used by Christians to describe the three 'parts' of the Trinity. 'Entities' certainly doesn't cut it, because an entity can be inanimate and non-sentient. Bodies is wrong (although understandable if 'body' was meant in the sense of corporate body rather than physical body). But body carries massively the wrong meaning. DJ Clayworth 14:56, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It angers me very much when many people accuse Christians of worshipping three gods. I think there is a way to explain the Trinity a lot better to people who are not familiar with the Christian faith. I was watching a program for Hal Lindsey on TBN, he used an example of a human being to describe the Trinity. For example if anybody were to describe a person by saying; that is his arm, that is his leg, that is his head, those are his eyes and ears. This does'nt mean that this person and all of those body parts are different single organisms, they're a part of the same body. The same goes for the Trinity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, are three spiritual elements of God combined into one.-- Gramaic 22:23, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I rolled back Stevertigo's change of "persons" to "personifications," which really doesn't make sense. "Persons" is the right word because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all persons; they relate to each other interpersonally, though that's not the best way to say it. "Person" is the English word that trinitarian Christianity has used consistently. Oh and gren, there is a single "Godhead," not three "God heads." Have the people proposing alternatives read the Trinity article recently? Wesley 04:34, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think it is a bit silly when we try here on Wikipedia to outperform several ecumenical councils and hundreds of years of attempts to get the definition just right by eminent Christian theologians. One God in three Persons appears to be the universally accepted formulation and should really simply be accepted even if this is hard to grasp a concept. There are whole religions set up to thrive on paradoxons - e.g. Zen-Buddhism, so do please leave us our own mystery, will you? Refdoc 08:25, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't get it , why are you perpetuating such obvious nonsense as Islam is branch of Christianity? The article is about Christianity , keep it on Christianity. If I wrote an article on Pizza I would not expect mini ads throughout the text about hamburgers, I would expect it to be about Pizza. -- Astrogoth 03:50, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What's the "true christian belief?" But, as far as my edit, Mormonism with its 11-12 million adherents hardly constitutes a "major world religion", especially when compared with Islam, with over 1.3 billion. Cory 04:44, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Exactly Gramaic. Only at the same time those people call themselves the true Christians, just as many other cults/heresies/schisms etc before them and as Islam does to to some degree. This is th whole point of the section. I am really not sure how often this needs to be said. And to my mind there is is absolutely no endorsement of any of these. But the debate who is a true Christian, including doctrinary statements by churches to delineate the "border" are a long ongoing history and continues until today. So there is more then enough reason to mention the JWs, Islam and Marcionism in one paragraph, to show the continueity of heresy. Formulate things better if youmust, but do not delete information. Thanks! Refdoc 08:18, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That said, my point was the removal of the very opinionated staement that the Mormon church is a major world religion. Major world religons include Islam, Christianity, Judaism (for reasons other than size), Buddhism, etc. Might as throw up any Christian sect and call it a major religion if it has as many or more adherents than the Church of LDS, or for that matter, why stop at just Islam, break it up into major world religion sects... sunni, shite... that'd be comprable to Mormon. I have no problem with the paragraph, just the propagada that's included.
And, as far as Islam goes, it's no more a "Christian off-shoot" than it is an off-shoot of Judaism, Sabiism, Hanifism or Zoroastrianism.
I would agree changing the bit about major world religion Mormonism is not one, I think there is ample consensus. This doe snot alter though the fact that Mormonism is a big(ish) religion/cult/denomination which claims to be the "better" Christians, while most other Christians will think exactly the opposite - exactly the kind of example we are looking here for. Refdoc 20:42, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No I absolutely do not agree with this suggestion, Cory, the examples are there to put a context to it. No one knows what Marcionism is, but everyone knows Islam and Mormons. I am not sure why on earth this has to be deleted? Refdoc 08:44, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Whoever did the latest change, its a step in the right direction. Cory 18:56, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Since this article is about Christianity, I was thinking that maybe we could include Christian organizations in the article. For example, if we were to make a list of Christian organizations we would include something like the Christian Coalition and many others. What does everyone think?-- Gramaic 08:01, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is an article about the teachings and history of Christianity, but not about American protestant organisations. There is abundant space in other articles for the organisations you want to add. Alternatively you can establishg an article on Christian organisations, or even better- a category - Christian organisatins which tie them altogether. Refdoc 08:46, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that the Crusades are not mentioned in the prosecution section, when it is one of the most notable instances of prosecution by Christians in history. It seems like a rather strange omission, but I'm not sure where to stick it in. Titanium Dragon 13:44, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The Crusades are not in the persecution section because the Crusaders were not persecutors, they were religious and humble Christians who left their home in Europe to fight and reclaim the Holy Land from the invading Muslims. So, all these accusations that the Crusaders were persecutors, invaders and murderers are just false claims. The real persecutors were (and still are) the Muslims.-- 66.81.173.34 21:52, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when a few references have been added to the article. - Taxman 18:36, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
Truly, it is an unholy shade of grey. I'd like it white, but I'm sure that change would be reverted instantly. ✈ James C. 04:14, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)
I was just curious as to how the number jumped to 2.2 billion, when on the Islam page you had links to both the CIA Factbook and US Dept of State showing Christianity (Catholocism and Protestantism) at 1.5 Billion and Islam at 1.48 Billion. If no one responds in a few days, I will change the numbers here and post the sources. MPA
I deleted the references to rationlizing that Islam is growing faster than Christianity, due to those countries having a higher birth rate. I do so because one 1) It is bigoted 2) There is no factual evidence to support it. 3) There is not enough evidence to determine what the conversion rate is and 4) In many of those countrys where Islam is supposed to have a higher birth rate, the acutal death rates are equal or even higher than the birth rates. -- mpa
It's pretty cumbersome for my little modem to handle. :) -- Randolph 00:47, 3 May 2005 (UTC) It is illogical to say that because you are born in a certain place your religion will be predictable. If you are born in a hospital that does not make you a doctor. Furthermore, even if your logic made any sense, you have failed to consider the entire latin population.
I removed the following paragraph:
"One of the major groups of these churches is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which preaches that the authority and truth that Jesus Christ established during his life were lost after many of his apostles were killed after his death and resurrection. Members of the Church believe that a Restoration of the truth and this authority was necessary and that such a Restoration began when Joseph Smith, Jr., who later founded the church in 1820, saw God and Jesus Christ in a vision. Smith reports that the heavenly beings called him by name and introduced themselves, telling him that he was to join none of the churches then in existance. He was later visited by other heavenly messengers, who gave him the Priesthood, believed not to be a person or group of people but the authority to act in the name of God. He also translated an ancient book of scripture written by religious leaders and followers of Jesus Christ who lived in the Ancient Americas, now known as The Book of Mormon. Members believe the book is a companion book of scripture to the Bible and that both testify of the life, mission, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ."
LDS is not a MAJOR group within Christianity. A major group has hundreds of millions of followers. At 12 million, the qualify for "large" at most. Either way, if they get a paragraph this size, then we'd need the same or larger for the Catholics, the Orthodox/Eastern Christian, etc. according to the following.
Major Denominational Families of Christianity (This table does not include all Christians. These numbers are estimates, and are here primarily to assist in ranking branches by size, not to provide a definitive count of membership.) Branch Number of Adherents Catholic 1,050,000,000 Orthodox/Eastern Christian 240,000,000 African indigenous sects (AICs) 110,000,000 Pentecostal 105,000,000 Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United 75,000,000 Anglican 73,000,000 Baptist 70,000,000 Methodist 70,000,000 Lutheran 64,000,000 Jehovah's Witnesses 14,800,000 Adventist 12,000,000 Latter Day Saints 12,500,000
http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html#Christianity
My sense is that this description is not quite as universally acknowleded as it suggests. Does this term even merit a section on its own? BrandonYusufToropov 14:20, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
It shouldn't be removed, just edited to specificy the degree to which applies for each of the major denominations. -- Jleon 19:38, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Please accept my apologies for not having the correct formats, etc - me noob. In my defense, please note I am only entering this in the 'talk' page. =P RE: "Excommunication is not a Catholic act, etc, etc." The problem with sweeping generalizations is that they are usually wrong. ;-) Excommunication is not practiced by all Christian faiths. Baptists, for example, do not practice excommunication. Baptists cannot be excommunicated because they were never "communicated" to begin with. Excommunication is the denial of the sacraments of the church, and therefore the denial of access to divine grace (see definition & citation, below). Baptists do not have sacraments, so it is impossible to withhold them. Some Baptist ministers will revoke church membership for individuals they feel are flagrantly offensive in their behavior (lewdness, public drunkenness, etc). However, this is only done in the most extreme of cases (hence the furor over a certain preacher in Waynesville, N.C. who was recently in the news), and it does not prohibit the individual from just going to another Baptist church down the block. Excommunication, however, implies the entire church organization rejects the supplicant from taking holy communion - for example, a Roman Catholic who is excommunicated at Saint Mary's can't just trot down the street to Saint Peter's and act like nothing's wrong. Being excommunicated is a serious and final step, it is never taken lightly, and the message is passed up and down the church hierarchy - he is *out* until he repents or dies (and goes straight to hell for being in the state of excommunication at death). DEFINITION AND CITATION: Excommunication (n) 1: the state of being excommunicated [syn: exclusion, censure] 2: the act of banishing a member of the Church from the communion of believers and the privileges of the Church; cutting a person off from a religious society [syn: excision] Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University. -- Xaa
A description of satan and the names Christ called him is important in understanding the Christian religion more completely. What is this thing satan that Jesus called the "prince of the world" ?
Well, according to that article anyway. I have just removed:
I am sure that anyone here who believes this should be free to incorporate such stunning conclusions into the relevant article on Judaism and Christianity (though this seems to be the driving force behind the Roots section in the History of Christianity article). Be aware that one contributor doesn't seem to think that this is POV. Anyone here should feel free to balance the text, as I'm positive that this is not what Jewish scholars would say. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:29, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
~~~~
You said: "Even the first commandment is not unambiguously monotheistic. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me" seems implictly to accept the existance of other gods."
When gods is spelt with a lower-case g in The Bible it refers to gods that aren't real.
Deuteronomy 4:28 'There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.'
The first commandment God gave to the Israelites does NOT accept other 'Gods' but other 'gods' as in idols, anything really that is put in first position in a person's life can be considered to be their god, i.e. money, career, family, and even idols. The reason behind this first commandment is that God is to have first and only priority in a person's life, not that there are other celestial beings worthy of being worshipped.
I have made some tweaks on the intro. -- Astrogoth 03:51, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'd welcome other people's comments on this... -- G Rutter 07:31, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
-- Noitall 12:04, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
Is seems to me that the list of external sites at the end of this article should be more focused. For instance, the subsection "Christian sites" includes links that more properly belong under apologetics. Since this article is about the history, origins, and basic beliefs of Christianity, it seems to me that that same focus should apply to the links. (Sure, there is overlap here with apologetics, but most of the links should apply directly to the subject at hand.) I would also like to see more variety in denominations (Catholicism and Orthodoxy seem to be under-represented). The Catholic Encyclopedia is an obvious addition that would fit within a more focused, more ecumenical scheme. What do you think? -- Flex 13:19, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
But neutral and secular scholars and historians ... The conceits to which agnosticism can raise itself, continually astonish me. Mkmcconn (Talk) 5 July 2005 00:00 (UTC)
I have removed this twice:
I don't think we need to point folks to the other denominational pages, since we do elsewhere in the article. I also question the accuracy of the second sentence (the anonymous user who keeps posting this paragraph hasn't cited any sources). It's simple POV stuff, and I have removed it twice. Anyone else have an opinion? KHM03 5 July 2005 17:29 (UTC)
Removed POV paragraph for a third (and, for me, final) time, and also sent a polite message to the anonymous user asking him/her to review POV policies. No response from user. I'll leave the matter in the hands of the community. KHM03 5 July 2005 17:35 (UTC)
This paragraph just sort of strikes me as odd. Would there be objection to replacing this kind of idiosyncratic description of the beliefs of "the vast majority of Christians" with brief verbatim citations from one or more of the summations of Trinitarian faith - say, the Nicene Creed? Mkmcconn (Talk) 5 July 2005 19:56 (UTC)
This entire paragraph seems to be full of problems bordering on slander. Here's the paragraph, followed by a partial list of clear problems.
At the very least, this paragraph needs to be properly qualified or attributed as the one-sided perspective it is, if not deleted outright. Wesley 6 July 2005 04:58 (UTC)
This is a very strange section to me. I have heard of no scholar who has claimed that Islam developed from Christianity or that it developed from a Christian sect. I am going to remove this reference but if someone has an argument for it then please post it here. Heraclius 7 July 2005 03:06 (UTC)
I say you just remove the section. It lacks veracity and scholarly support. KHM03 7 July 2005 12:27 (UTC)
I did shorten the section. If you feel that it should be removed, then just do it yourself here. Heraclius 7 July 2005 16:00 (UTC)
It has been removed. Jim Ellis July 7, 2005 17:54 (UTC)
Several changes were made early July 7 which I reverted. These changes "compromised the previous work." Some were relatively harmless but duplicated information and botched the formatting. Other changes replaced the word "persons" with "beings" in describing the Trinity -- which is plainly incorrect and needed reversion. Jim Ellis July 7, 2005 12:18 (UTC)
Again, I ask...is this section necessary? Can't we just edit it down to a sentence or two and a link? And is there a way we can combine the "doctrine" and "beliefs" sections? KHM03 7 July 2005 17:37 (UTC)
The "beliefs" section is getting out of hand...no reason for a Protestant vs. Catholic fight. I'd like to edit it and reduce it for clarity and brevity, any ideas, input, or objections? KHM03 9 July 2005 14:50 (UTC)
Admittedly, not all of our edits are perfect (and we should admit it when someone improves upon our editing). But P0lyglut's are particularly bad, and he/she is unwilling to listen to reason and provide any justification for his/her edits contrary to Wiki policy. Also, P0lyglut has been reported for a 3RR violation, see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. Here are a few of the reasons these edits are bad:
Please, someone revert P0lyglut's edits. Thank you.
-- Noitall July 8, 2005 07:33 (UTC)
I can live with categorizing Anglican as "protestant," but it should be noted that Anglicanism, as a whole, considers itself a "middle way" between Protestantism as such and and Roman Catholicism, and many Anglicans would reject the label of "Protestant" entirely. This should be noted (and will be). However, the Assyrian Church of the East is completely distinct, being neither Roman Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.-- Midnite Critic 8 July 2005 21:02 (UTC)
I can live with the following. Hope y'all can too:
A more comprehensive overview would categorize Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East as branches distinct from the Chalecedonian Christianity of Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism, and Restorationism as a tradition separate from Protestantism, with which it is often placed. Additionally, Anglicanism overall regards itself as being at least as much akin to Roman Catholicism and the two branches of Orthodoxy as to Protestantism. -- Midnite Critic 8 July 2005 22:01 (UTC)
At best this statement is an incompetent conflation of the events related in the Gospel accounts. I previously corrected it; but another contributor took objection and changed it back. I have now restored my previous correction; and unless someone has a more accurate way of expressing the situation as represented in the Gospel accounts, I expect my version to stay. May I remind the learned contributors to this article of the rivers of blood that have been spilled of millions of people personally uninvolved in the events - including by my parents' generation, hence in living memory - owing to the misinterpretation of the accounts of the trial of Jesus. Portress 9 July 2005 00:18 (UTC)
After Jesus' death and resurrection (as described in the Bible) Jesus kept teaching and asked his disciples to spread his word. Christianity is based on his death as well since communion represents the partaking of his sacrifice (death in the cross). Belief on him as the Messiah is justified by his death (as prophesied by Isaiah resurrection (not human nature but divine). JC's death startes the spread of the Church. -- Vizcarra 10:21, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
There is no need to highlight some particular point of the New Testament's portrayal/account as being more doubtful than others. Mkmcconn (Talk) 17:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
There is no need to highlight some particular point of the New Testament's portrayal/account as being more doubtful than others. To say "account of ... resurrection" is not any less NPOV than "portrayal of a resurrection". Accounts can be false - as some think this one is. Portrayals of (a) crucifixion can be doubted (as some do). It adds clutter to the article to try to make particular doubts stand out, as more important than others. Mkmcconn (Talk) 17:27, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Yes, there is a difference, Jim. The difference is that, you want to highlight how especially doubtful you or some other people are, that the resurrection ever took place. This is unnecessary - the sentence does not assert that the event took place. It asserts that the New Testament portrays it as having taken place. You are focusing on the resurrection, but the other elements of the account are equally subject to doubt. There is no reason to highlight a favorite item as being more doubtable than the others. Mkmcconn (Talk) 18:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
No, it says it's a testimony. It's like when someone stands up in court and says "that guy did it". That's his testimony. You may not believe him, but its still his testimony. We have the New Testament and that's what it says. It would be reasonable if the sentence read "on the alleged testimony of the apostles.
In fact it would be better to ignore the clause completely and start the sentence with "Christians believe...". DJ Clayworth 20:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC) I also discover that the introduction makes no mention that Christians believe Jesus to be God. We had this conversation only a month or so ago, and it absolutely deserves to be there. Was there a reason it was taken out? DJ Clayworth 20:36, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
What does
add to this section? Are there other preserved teachings than those found in the NT that Xty is based on?-- JimWae 21:21, 2005 July 11 (UTC)
Christianity is a monotheistic religion developed from Judaism by the early followers of Jesus of Nazareth, based upon their beliefs about Jesus' life, teachings, death by crucifixion, and resurrection as presented in the New Testament. Notable in shaping Christian beliefs were Paul of Tarsus, the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great, Augustine of Hippo, ... -- JimWae 22:23, 2005 July 11 (UTC)
Which part of the first sentence is narrowing or particular?-- JimWae 23:31, 2005 July 11 (UTC)
Christianity is a monotheistic religion that originated with Jesus of Nazareth and his early followers, based upon their beliefs about Jesus' life, teachings, death by crucifixion, and resurrection as presented in the New Testament. With roots in Judaism, it branched off (mostly under the direction of Paul of Tarsus) and later expanded throughout the Roman Empire.-- JimWae 04:15, 2005 July 12 (UTC)
So, the first sentence is more acceptable than it was, no? Christianity is a monotheistic religion that originated with Jesus of Nazareth and his early followers, based upon their beliefs about Jesus' life, teachings, death by crucifixion, and resurrection as presented in the New Testament. With roots in Judaism, it branched off and later expanded throughout the Roman Empire. -- JimWae 06:15, 2005 July 12 (UTC)
SO the first sentence is no longer drawing objection. When one says something is rooted in something else, there is no implication that there was no major transformation later. If Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, if Jesus is the Messiah promised to the Jews in their scriptures, if the founders were all Jewish, then I think somewhere along the way (& maybe not in the lead, true, but maybe so) it is mentionable. But my main concern is the first sentence anyway. -- JimWae 07:24, 2005 July 12 (UTC)
I disagree fundamentally with the idea that 'The purpose of this sentence is to explain why Christianity is called "christianity"'. More people are likely to come to this article asking "what is Christianity" rather than "why is Christianity called that". No other articles on religious devote their opening paragraph to etymology. We should give a very brief description of what Christianity is in the opening para - and I think the idea that Jesus is considered to be God is important. DJ Clayworth 17:19, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
You have no idea who uses the term or why. Unless you can find some plausible source for your contention that it is non-Christians who use it etc., please stick to the facts we actually know, that the term is sometimes used. Jayjg (talk) 23:23, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Christianity falls within the Abrahamic tradition. To contend that Christianity is a "Christian" religion is redundant in the extreme. You may as well write that it is a "religious" religion. Wikipedia is not just for Christians.
Lapsed Pacifist
01:15, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
For the record, for those who have little knowledge about what they are editing (this won't change those who are intentionally causing trouble), here are Christian beliefs (in all these words, note how many times Abraham is mentioned):
What's the beef, Noitall? The "Abrahamic religion" statement was moved from the forefront of the introduction and qualified by the phrase "Christianity is sometimes referred to as", which is fact. I agree that Christianity does not refer to itself as an "Abrahamic religion" and that this term may be primarily used by secular scholars or Islam-ists in a way that tends to marginalize the Christian faith. Nevertheless a casual internet search will show it is quite common. This is not a "Christian page", it is supposed to be an encyclopedic description of Christianity from a neutral point of view. Regards, Jim Ellis 14:24, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
I am a Christian and have no problem with Christianity being referred to as "Abrahamic". It's not a term we normally use, but we do claim spiritual descent from Abraham. I don't understand what the fuss is all about, to be honest. KHM03 16:29, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Let me address a few of the issues now raised:
-- Noitall 01:50, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
It does not really matter whether I am offended or not by the subject of a particular passage. It also does not matter whether others on Wiki are offended. It is also irrelevant whether regular Christians are offended. Many Christians would not be offended by anything at all as long as they can uphold their own beliefs. They could care less what Wiki states. What offends me is a misleading and inaccurate characterization of Christian thought on Wiki, mostly to support a few people's POV. That is the only thing that matters. It is that simple.
You are right that there is more to Christianity than the Nicene crede. But the Nicene Crede is a good generalization of Christian thought for several reasons:
1. The Nicene Crede is a 1700 year old source that is the foundation of Christian beliefs,
2. The Nicene Crede is the essence of Christianity, as it was constructed by the founders of Catholicism and Orthodoxy and, later, Protestantism was founded because they believe such older religions did not sufficiently focus on this aspect of Christianity,
3. Abraham is only one part of the bible as a whole, and there is no reason to single out one section of Genesis for POV reasons unrelated to Christianity (in fact, if editors were to continue such a focus, it is far more accurate to call it a " Davidian religion") and
4. the Bible as a whole, particularly the Old Testiment, creates many avenues of belief with Christianity, specifically because they are not related to the essence of Christianity.
-- Noitall 22:14, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
-->Let's see . . . I am the one with the sources and you failed to address any of my arguments, and you think I am the irrational one? -- Noitall 01:16, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
Christians' opinions and beliefs will be acknowledged in the article on Christianity (as there is no "Christian page" on Wikipedia). It is not necessary that this exclude other opinions of Christianity, or that those of Christians should automatically take precedence.
Lapsed Pacifist 01:36, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I will continue to favor accuracy and truth, but I suppose I will continue to be opposed by some who disagree with this. On your point, just in this section, I made the same statement approximately 4 times: the opinions and beliefs of Christians ought to be acknowedged on the Christian page. To do otherwise is misleading and inaccurate. -- Noitall 02:30, July 14, 2005 (UTC) And, BTW, on your smart statement (used to avoid addressing the issue here), I know it is too much to assume that other editors on this page know that the Christianity page is a page about the religion of Christians, but I guess it needs to be stated nevertheless. -- Noitall 02:38, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
In view of the contentiousness of this point, it is questionable whether it is appropriate to include this statement in its present form, namely "it is sometimes called...". Unless those who express themselves in this way are mentioned here by name, it will remain forever a source of misunderstanding, hence a bone of contention. Note also that a link to "Abrahamic religion" has been made, which presumably therefore was intended by the original contributor of this assertion to act as his/her authority. See furthermore the entry "People of the Book". So I am unlikely to be the only one that draws the conclusion from these two Wikipedia articles that there are Muslims who are taking this view. If there are no Muslims who take this view, it is unfair on Muslims to make the link to "Abrahamic religion", and unfair on Christians to let them think this of Muslims. For my part, I have no problem with (a) Christians being numbered among the People of the Book, i.e. the Bible, because even today a large number of us still believe in the truth of the Holy Bible, and (b) Abraham being our father in the faith, which is an important issue in the Gospel. Portress 07:45, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Noitall added this text: "Although the essential beliefs of Christians are generally described in the Nicene Creed, and thus they generally do not view themselves as a part of an 'Abrahamic religion', (sic) they incorporate the texts of the Old testament in their lessons." S/he seems to feel that it is unjust that we removed it, but it is possible that s/he is simply using the term "Abrahamic Religion" in a technical way unique to Muslims rather than the generic way found in the article Abrahamic religion. While nearly all major Christian denominations adhere to the Nicene Creed, it is not a complete summary of their teaching. Just because Abraham is not mentioned in the creed doesn't mean that they do not view him as their spiritual forebear.
All Christians (and I speak as one of them) consider themselves spiritual children of Abraham because that is what the New Testament calls them (see Galatians 3, especially vv. 7,14,29). In Romans 11:13-24, Paul uses the analogy of a an olive tree. Each branch represents a descendent of Abraham and an heir to his promise, and the Gentiles are grafted into this tree among the natural (i.e. Israelite) branches -- in other words, Paul views the Gentiles as being part of the same faith as Abraham. Many Christians do not view the Old Testament merely as lessons, and moreover, they view Abraham as part of the Christian Church before the coming of Christ. (Christians who hold to Covenant theology have an even greater affinity with Abraham than dispensationalists who disconnect the physical people of Israel from the spiritual Christian church.) In that sense, I maintain that Noitall's sentence above is inaccurate. -- Flex 21:14, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
-- Noitall 05:18, July 28, 2005 (UTC)
According to the the previous version of the article, a basic "Christian belief is that the NT is part of the Bible". This is not a belief, since the Bible was put together by scholars. It is a point of view, rather. -- Vizcarra 01:27, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Response: This article is a mess, and I'm staying out of it for the time being; however, from a Jewish perspective, it is indeed a Christian BELIEF that the New Testament is part of the Bible, regardless of who put it together; for Judaism, the NT is not part of the Bible.-- Midnite Critic 02:41, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Midnite Critic is correct, this article is expressly about beliefs. Address the history in the appropriate section. -- Noitall 03:51, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
DJ Clayworth, you wrote: We should give a very brief description of what Christianity is in the opening para - and I think the idea that Jesus is considered to be God is important.
The opening paragraph does do that (very briefly and generally) and one of the ideas that is implied is, that Jesus is believed to be God - although this, and other specific beliefs are not expanded on, there. Do you really think that they should be expanded here? Doesn't that become messy?
I don't disagree with you that the belief that Jesus is God is important. I'm only wondering where this ought to be explained. In my opinion, it's better under Beliefs - and what we should find in that section is an expansion of what's said in the opening paragraph (which right now suggests that it will deal with the "life, teachings, death by crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth as portrayed in the New Testament writings of his early followers."). Mkmcconn (Talk) 18:42, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
On another issue that you mentioned, above, if you'll look at Islam and Vedas, you'll find that an explanation of the name is prominent in their opening paragraphs. Judaism, Jew and Buddhism move this kind of etymological discussion down in the article. I'm not insisting on either approach; I'm only saying that it's not unusual to think that people might want to know where the name, "Christianity" comes from. It helps to explain what the religion is about. I won't lobby for including a sentence about etymology. Mkmcconn (Talk) 18:42, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Dear Jayig, thank you for correcting me on this point. I had made the edit on the strength of what Muslims are telling me and failed to realise that this may not be true without qualification. My apologies. In the circumstances, is there not also a problem with the Wikipedia articles People of the Book and Abrahamic religion in this respect? Portress 07:53, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
I hesitate to ask, as these debates seem to go nowhere, and focus on minutiae: User:Noitall, why should it not be mentioned that Christianity is sometimes called an Abrahamic religion because of the belief that Jesus fulfills the prophecy given to Abraham? Mkmcconn (Talk) 21:57, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
It appears the last edit by Noitall, left the "Abrahamic religion" clause in place. It looks fine to me as is. Regards, Jim Ellis 23:51, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
(Former title: "Re: "Doctrine" edits by Jim Ellis & ProtractedSilence + Catholic v Protestant")
Dear Jim,
I see that you removed material in the doctrine section in response to the additions by ProtractedSilence.
However, you also removed a small, but important addition edit by myself. Please review my edits history here, before you make a decision to remove my material.
(Because of 1 & 2, above, I replaced that portion of my edit that was missing.) I also see that you have training in Bibilcal matters; I too have similar training, but informally: I have read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
In addition, a similar issue came up on a related page, in which User:JimWae made some adjustments to my edit, shortening it a little bit. However, here is something you might find interesting: In the Wikipedia article, Jesus, on a similar topic, here at [ this diff at 18:07, 23 July 2005, we see not only JimWae's edit, but also a section differentiating the Catholic beliefs from Protestant ones. Since I don't know everything about Catholic beliefs, I did not add that to this article, but here is the full comment with the edit, in case you want to look into this and/or consider adding something about the Catholic beliefs about works vs faith. (Since you are a specialist in religion, I hope you can be helpful here. Thanks.) OK, here's the diff, but with footnote links omitted for brevity - see article for details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Jesus&diff=19454192&oldid=19452122
Christianity - paragraph about faith & good works & which is necessary - not about miracles, nor is performing miracles necessary for salvation
Protestant Christians generally believe that faith in Jesus is the only way to receive salvation and to enter into heaven, and that salvation is a gift given by the grace of God. Although most members of the various Christian denominations believe that faith in Jesus is necessary (based upon John 3:16) passage, good works are certainly expected <!--by whom? & does God need evidence of "what is in our hearts"?-->. Jesus says (John 13:15) that his life was given as an example or role model for followers. In contrast, Roman Catholics believe that even non-Christians can receive the grace needed for salvation if they live a just life. 1 2 The Lutheran position on justification is nearly identical 3
-- GordonWattsDotCom 04:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your explanation in your edit summary, Jim, (e.g., "Doctrine - this is unnecessary and not in keeping with the rest of the article") and also, thank you for leaving in and not deleting some of my contributions; however, I wish to ask for more feedback all the same.
My post here relates to the Christianity#Doctrine section of the article. Below, I wish to comment on these two diffs: my recent edit here, "Revision as of 04:23, 27 July 2005" and Jim's more recent edit here, "Revision as of 11:53, 27 July 2005".
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You're asking for a third opinion and here it is. The red text above is too verbose for this article. I agree it provides source, but it just reads too long. It would be appropriate in an article on Faith and Works in Christianity, but not here. DJ Clayworth 13:18, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
I am satisfied that the prior discussion immediately above improved the quality of the article, and I am satisfied for the teamwork that was offered here.
However, I am still left with a feeling that the article still has glaring omissions of "main points" of the faith.
For example, it is inarguably true that salvation by faith is the most important point of "Christianity." However, we recall that the beliefs of that faith also mandate that "Faith without works is dead." (Paraphrase of James 2:17) Therefore, the article, while correct in mentioning how other religions rely on works alone is good, omits any mention of the fruit of works, so to speak.
In fact, I did a "Key word search" of the page (Edit --> "Find on this page"), and the word "works" only appears once in the entire page! (In the Christianity#General_on-line_sources section, we find this: "The Christian Classics Ethereal Library, containing the works of a wide spectrum of authors in doctrine, history, devotion, and Bible commentary")
Therefore, it is safe to say that this major Christian doctrine is underrepresented. (The article is about the Christian faith, not about other faiths, so mention of their beliefs in "works alone" to contrast is good, but "treatment of other faiths' beliefs" should not be more preeminent than "treatment of Christianity's beliefs" in how the article addresses this doctrine in Christianity: If faith is dead without works, then it surely is a "main" doctrine, not a "pet project," as Jim said earlier and thus must be mentioned somewhere in the main article.)
That leads me to address some of the points made earlier that I somehow overlooked in the haste to address the points on which we all agreed:
1 - First, Jim said this earlier: ...what follows is a listing of basic tenets such as the Trinity, virgin birth, etc. which should not be preceded by your little pet project on the role of "works." My comments: As far as calling it a "pet project" versus a "main doctrine," I addressed that earlier. However, I would take issue with the logic that Jim uses here: He says that my edit addition was not good because the other "main points" of the doctrine were preceded by your little pet project on the role of "works." This is bad logic because is implies that anything that precedes the basic tenets is not acceptable if it is not a part of these basic tenets; however, we know this to be flawed because a large section of the article, not specifically describing the basic tenets precedes this section, yet I don't see him objecting to those additions. (He did not raise objection until I specifically pointed out that the green additions were mine, making me wonder if he was merely suspicious of the additions because they came from a new editor, but I will not accuse him of this, because he did offer an explanation, and I am not equipped to read minds: I will give the benefit of the doubt.)
1(a) - Above, I addressed why Jim's logic was bad, but here in 1(a), I will assume that he meant immediately preceding, and that his logic was good. In that case, one solution to adding comments about "good works," would be to place them below, that is after, not before, the "basic tenets," which would place the new text right after the "Christian Love" section.
2 - DJ Clayworth suggests that my initial additions in red were "too verbose for this article [and that] it just reads too long." I will assume he is right, because on my 2nd reading, it did look a bit long. Therefore, any suggestion I make will surely be brief & to the point.
3 -He also suggests that "It would be appropriate in an article on Faith and Works in Christianity" Comment: It would be unreasonable to make an entire article on one single main tenet of any particular faith.
4 - Flex suggests that "The bits about faith and works might fit at Justification (theology)," but I looked at this section: Justification has to do with salvation, not works, and I wouldn't feel right about trying to squeeze it into there.
5 - Just to show you that I was thinking and making an effort, I did look at an article about Sanctification, and article looked promising, but upon closer inspection, it had less to do with works, and more about being "set apart for special use or purpose" (like good works). Ouch! I tried, really...
6 - Flex suggests this: in an article on good works (such an article should also discuss the Roman Catholic doctrines of merit and so forth). Good idea. I will take a stab at addressing it.
7 - Mkmcconn makes this observation: "This is such a colorful discussion :-) My feeling is that it is hard to pick out a single issue as being uniformly held to be more important, or different from all other religions." Thank you: I agree that is hard to show any single issue as being more important in the tenets or beliefs, if that is what you meant. Thus, I am sure that my suggestions, no matter what they are, will receive mixed reactions. (This is a segue to my two proposed solutions.)
My first proposed solution would be to place the proposed addition right after the paragraph on "Christian Love" within the Christianity#Doctrine subsection. This makes sense, because "Christian Love" is in the motivating force for "Good works," or, conversely, "Good works" is evidence of "Christian Love."
My second solution might not be easily accepted by Mr. Ellis (who thought of this main tenet as a "pet project"), because I will suggest that my addition be placed directly within the basic tenets section, because, as we have been reminded: This faith describes "Faith without works" as being dead. It doesn't get any worse than this, so "works" must be an important element of the doctrine of Christianity, the main title of this article space. Thus, the idea that this is merely a "pet project" must either be proved or rejected to address my proposal to identify this as another (probably the 2nd most important) main belief or tenet of Christianity. Jim, I am trying to explain my reasoning, and have tried to have open ears, so I am asking that you do the same; Thank you in advance for your thoughtful consideration.
I am going to try to be brief with my actual edit and/or proposal, but below I shall leave a larger section from with to draw ideas and information:
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What I may do is add a proposed text in the article, and refer the other editors to talk, because waiting for feedback is very slow; If I mess up, you can delete my addition and discuss what I did; Trust me: I'm not going to start a Holy War or be disrespectful to the faith of Christianity: I've read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and myself am a believer of this faith, so I hope to present factual information for the reader, without forcing any one POV. The "source material" above can't all fit in the article, in all likelihood, so rest assured that my edit will be only part of this.
-- GordonWattsDotCom 23:22, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
UPDATE: I just spoke with my father, and he thinks that "works" is a central theme of Christianity, and that this article should include it. My father, Robert Watts, who runs the Bobby Watts Engine Parts, here in Lakeland, Florida, and who has both read the Bible from cover-to-cover, like myself, -and who is a personal friend of Drag Racing great, "Big Daddy" Don Garlits, also from the Tampa Bay area of Florida -said that "faith without works is dead," after I had already made the minor edit, suggesting that we had independently thought that this was a central theme of Christianity; I think it's the 2nd most important theme, 2nd only to Salvation. (My father made these comments, not Don Garlits; just to clarify.)
Regarding the additions that suggest the Catholic and Lutheran faiths think that living a just life alone is sufficient, I did not include them, because I don't personally believe that they don't believe this, but others have suggested or allowed this to be claimed. Therefore, I left in that section in my "proposal" above so those more familiar with Catholic or Lutheran can determine what needs to be added there.
Therefore, I made a minor edit, however, excluding claims about the Catholic & Lutheran beliefs that I believed are incorrect.-- GordonWattsDotCom 02:18, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Comment on current issue: Regarding Jim Ellis' very recent edit of the section on which Jim Wae and I have edited, I wanted to give feedback: After I pulled out the magnifying glass and looked closely at it, I think Mr. Ellis did a good job; Thank you.
He appears to have separated the previously conflated (intertwined) duel issues of faith and works well, to satisfy Jim Wae's concern, and I am satisfied that the main points are there.
I am Gordon Watts, and I approve this message.-- GordonWattsDotCom 15:54, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to disrupt the Faith vs Works controversy, but "Salvation from the wrath of God" is by no means a universal Christian belief. Many Christians would hold that what we are saved from is SIN or DAMNATION or CORRUPTION, rather than God's wrath. To quote the Orthodox writer Kallistos Ware, "While the wrath of God is certainly a biblical concept, it seems to me that it is nothing more than the love of God; those who do not accept God's love feel it as wrath. The gates of Hell, as C. S. Lewis put it, are locked on the inside." JHCC (talk) 18:42, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I deleted the words "(Latin for "God become flesh") " following the mention of the belief that Jesus was "God incarnate" because both words are English.
Wikipedia is meant to be neutral. People interested in an article are generally those supportive of it, and therefore may not have a neutral point of view, as the user below makes clear in his post "Lack of neutrality"
I'm finding it a bit tedious that this page is being continually vandalised by fundamentalist Christians who want to pretend that there are no criticisms of Christianity by burying everything away in the "Links" section.
If you can have a huge section about persecution of Christians (and how often are Christians persecuted in contemporary society?), then you also need a section on Criticism of Christianity. To remove this section is an act of intellectual vandalism.
It only goes to prove what some of the critics of Christianity say that it is trying to actively suppress truth by ignoring and suppressing the reality of criticism.
You can argue against criticism but you can't pretend it is not an important part of an article on this subject.
I reproduce the moderated section below - NB and this is one that was watered down by Christians anyway, all references made to homosexuality, to the pope's role in the AIDs crisis, to the church's role in the Rwandan genocide were removed.
Criticisms of Christianity
Critics of Christianity have included philosophers, journalists, scientists and other people from all walks of life. Some have argued that Christianity can be an intolerant religion. Bertrand Russell argued that "the puritanism of Christianity has played havoc with the moderation that an enlightened and tolerant critical spirit would have produced." Voltaire said that "of all religions, Christianity is without a doubt the one that should inspire tolerance most, although, up to now, the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men"
Some critics, such as Richard Dawkins argue that Christianity has sought to suppress rational enquiry and hence the quest for truth. He cites the story of Doubting Thomas from the Bible and argues that the Bible actively discourages believers from making rational enquiries about their faith. Dawkins has said that he is against religion "because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world."
Some critics have argued that the Bible's insistence on absolute right and wrong have led misguided people to fight wars on the basis of that religion, such as the Crusades. Linguist and political radical Noam Chomsky, for example, has argued that the Bible "is one of the most genocidal books in history." George Monbiot has also argued that Christian fundamentalists are driving the United States's current foreign policy, to the detriment of all concerned. [4]
This section doesn't seem to be as neutral as the wikipedia articles I'm used to. It looks to me as if there is so much effort being put into satisfying the Christian editors that there's a sense of taboo in mentioning information contradictory or offensive to Christians. Almost all of the historical information is presented as fact, and it feels like a zealous Christian is telling me about his religion whilst trying as hard as he can to restrain his bias. Here are some suggestions for editing:
China is officially athiest and currently holds the largest population of athiests in the world.
LDS and Mormons are the exact same thing. Why are they portrayed as seperate groups??
I think somebody brought this up before, but the statistic of the global population of Christians seems a bit exaggerated.
Who wrote this? Christ is not "derived" but is the literal Greek word "χριστος" (Christos) which means "anointed". This sentence is completely inaccurate.
This is what I'm talking about. This sounds like a zealous Christian having an orgasm while preaching what he perceives as the divine knowledge that will hopefully end up saving some "lost-soul" who happens to be reading. There are way too many quotes from the bible here. The reader just wants information on what Christians believe. If he wanted information like this, he'd be reading the bible. A simple description of what they believe will suffice. For example: "In addition to "one true god" and "the holy ghost", Christians also believe in such mythological creatures as angels, devils, demons, and the evil quasi-god "Satan". If this kind of information is offensive to Christians, add a note explaining that the mention of certain aspects of the religion is taboo. In summary, more information, less bible excerpts!
The usage of the word "god" on this page also bothers me. In several places, it is used with the assumption that it is the only god and that it is the same god as that of the reader. It should be replaced with "their god" or even by its name, like "Yahweh", "Jehovah", or "Jah". It should also be mentioned that the infallible name of the Jewish (and therefore, Christian) god is not widely known by Christians.
There should also be a whole section devoted to criticism. There is simply not enough of it, and the criticism that does exist is extremely mild.
Sorry for the long post, but I hope it improves an already great website.-- 67.177.36.200 19:31, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Good point. I wasn't really trying to ridicule the article, even though I realise it definitely came out that way. I'm just saying that the overall impression left is less than unbiased. It wasn't the quoting that I was objecting to, but the overuse of quoting. A descriptive sentence quoting relevant clauses and such should be enough, but a whole paragraph of religious redundancy seems a bit too much.
Compare to:
Which sounds easier to understand? I hope my point is taken into consideration. And about the Mormons, how are they different from LDS? I live in Salt Lake City, so that sounds somewhat ludicrous to me. "LDS" and "Mormon" are basically interchangeable as adjectives, even by Mormons themselves. You might mean that The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is different from Mormons as a whole because many polygamous Mormons don't follow the Church, but they are by no means seperate groups.-- 67.177.36.200 13:11, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
67 dot 177, I realize that Mormon and LDS are ordinarily treated as being identical. However, there are numerous groups which came out of the Latter-day Saint movement, which have no affiliation with the Utah Mormons at all. The consensus adopted by LDS and other religious editors on Wikipedia has been to refer to these other groups as LDS, unless they reject identification with the movement. See List of Christian denominations#Mormonism/Latter Day Saints for an example of how this approach works out. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 17:58, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
That is true. Many of the groups that came out of the LDS movement are not affiliated at all with mainstream mormons, and in fact some of the groups (such as the "Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints Church of Christ") have been denounced as cults. user:lucavix
A note on this friend, though my parents were Catholic, I was partly raised Jewish, and I can assure you that the Aramaic word for "Anointed One" and the words for "Anointed by God" are where the word Messiah comes from. So if Christ is derived from a word that means anointed, that word would be interchangable with Messiah. Of course I agree with your initial point, this article does seem written with... Well lets say a Christian slant. Initially the Persecution section, for example, only portrayed Christians as the victims of persecution and completely omitted things like the Crusades, of course then someone swung too far in the other direction. Actually there's an exchange going on right now about rather or not the clear and obvious bias by some christian denominations against homosexuals and atheist should be noted. I say it should because said persecution occurs in the United States largly on an individual (but religiously motivated) basis, but some seek to deny that persecution by christians can occur. -- User:LucaviX 15:21, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
I had not been a christian for some 20 years, but I gave little thought to it. I had never called myself an atheist, though by a purely semantic sense I was one, but I had always called myself a secularist and an agnostic. My parents were once catholic, members of a church that regularly baptized newborns, but my father had passed away and my mother had been a self proclaimed deist for some time. We had a small discussion regarding the statistics presented by the catholic church one afternoon, spurred into such a discussion by the passing of Pope John Paul the Second, and she said "Somehow I doubt the numbers are quite accurate." As we watched Chris Matthew my mother had the idea to check in with the old church, to see if we were still counted as members. A few days later, the phone rang, and my mother informed me that her and I both were still listed on the roster, along with my departed father. It took quite a bit of doing to get our names removed, and so I wonder, how many dead people are still being counted as members of the catholic church? How many members listed on the roster are now of other religions? How many, like myself, are of no religion at all? user:lucavix
Two additions were made to the article by user:203.160.1.70. This user started three sections, with headings - Criticism of Christianity, Christianity and Homosexuality, and Christianity and HIV AIDS. He/she started work on the first two sections, but left the third heading as a heading with no text to follow. I found the edits problematic for several reasons. The Criticism of Christianity was a misnomer, because it was actually Christians that were being criticized. The criticism was given in a people-think-Christians-are-like-this way, with no reference, no source, nothing to identify the people who criticize Christians thus. The next section seemed to confuse traditional Christian teaching on homosexual inclination with traditional Christian teaching on homosexual actions, stating that Christian practice regards homosexuality as "fundamentally wrong". It continued by referring to the "critics" who believe that Christians are not tolerant because they persecute homosexuals. There were no examples given of this "persecution"; nor were the "critics" identified in any way. No reference, no quotation, nothing. It seemed to be simply the unsourced opinion of the user in Australia. The third section, on AIDS, was not added, so we were left with a heading for a section, but no section. After twenty minutes, I reverted. User:203.160.1.69 reinserted it over four hours later. Actually, he/she reinserted part of of it in two different places. I also received a message on my talk page from user:203.210.203.204, saying that to delete that section was "little short of vandalism".
I am assuming (after checking here) that the three IP addresses are from the same user. I am replying here as it is obviously not a static address, and that user may have a different address by now. I am sorry if I have stepped on anyone's toes. I would just like to make it clear that I do not object to a section on criticism, but, in order to follow Wikipedia policy, such a section would have to give sources for the criticism, and, if possible, give some responses from Christian churches. It can't be just critics think that Christians are intolerant and narrow minded and that they are responsible for the spread of AIDS, etc.
So, Anon, if you want a section on criticism, perhaps you could discuss it on the talk page first. (I admit I reverted without discussion, but I was bringing the article back to what it had been, and I did explain in the edit summary, particularly the second time.) Can you give sources and references for these unnamed critics? I have no doubt at all that these critics exist, but phrases such as "critics say" are best avoided on Wikipedia. Regarding the HIV section, I don't think it's a good idea to insert a heading for a new section into an article unless you are going to insert the actual text for the section within the next few minutes. People sometimes do that on talk pages, so that they won't "lose" anything if the computer misbehaves, but it's better not to do it in an article. Thanks. Ann Heneghan (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I have noticed that there is a lot of information in here that relates only to Catholicism. While that religion is very close to Christianity, it should not be labeled as such and does not fit with this article. Now I know this article is probably just referring to the very well-known religions that are close to what true Christianity is, but close is not on target. If it's right to say that Christians believe the Bible, than I would say that this article should be changed to be in line with what the Bible has to say, because that's where Christians get their belief system from right? And if one wants to follow the Bible because that's where the Christian beliefs come from, than one must remember this verse...
Revelation 22:18,19 (www.biblegateway.com; NIV) "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."
Anyways, do you think anyone would mind if I did a little changing around? I'm not trying to get anyone to convert to Christianity, but I don't want people to get confused as to what Christianity is from a historical standpoint. Let me know what you think! - unsigned