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All of the current discussions bring a question to mind. What or who actually is a Christian? Most denominations believe that there is only one true Christian faith. At least the biggest do. (Catholic, Eastern orthodox) they say different in interfaith discussions but elsewhere the posture is so. Therefore the question in my mind is, Why the attack on small or unorthodox groups? Who really is a Christian? The harldiners here are sure JW's and mormons are not Christians because of the Trinity. Yet, each denomination and sects within each denomination have differing views on the trinity. Just google blogs for trinity. Everyone is a heretic because all these incorrect beliefs in the trinity are heresies. Since none completely agree on what the trinity actually, who really is a Christian if this is the measure of a true Christian? George 20:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
"How can Christians be one of mind and faith if their faith is in disagreement over the elements of the most fundamental doctrine?" I don't think anyone calling themselves Christian would say that their faith is in disagreement; we all proclaim that our faith is in God. As there does appear to be some disagreement regarding the nature of God (though not nearly as much as you seem to imply), it does appear that not all who call themselves Christian are one of mind and faith. As Mark said, there's nothing remarkable about this. Does it seem to you that the article doesn't already cover this adequately? Wesley 16:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you Wesley! I am disturbed by the attitude that JW's are not Christians. Your reply seems to affirm they are. George 17:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Christianity is outlined in the Bible by Christ and by his inspired followers including Paul, John and James. These people warned that men would come in teaching false doctrine and bringing divisive sects. This has happened as Jesus said it would. Now there are thousands of sects and they disagree on the basics. Is God a Trinity? Is Jesus equal to his Father? is homosexuallity acceptable? some say it is because all sins are forgiven, while others point out the scriptural prohibition of it. The bottom line is a person can make any claim to be anything they want to be such as a claim of Christianness. Jesus will not be fooled by anyones claim. He said that those who do the will of his father are the ones who will inherit the Kingdom, while those who don't, won't. Kljenni 01:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
At least we agree on that. George 02:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to clarify what a Christian truly is, if this is what all the debate is about. A Christian is someone who believes that Jesus died on the cross to forgive our sins, believes that He rose in three days, and trusts Him as their Lord. Tere may be other implications, but this is what has to be done: Acts 16:31 "They (Paul and Silas) said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.'" However, this does not mean that just because one person in a family becomes saved that all will. DebateKid 21:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Do aesthetics matter where hordes tag templates of redundancy, ignore such voids as white space and work with primitive text tools because software is lacking. Where is the genius of open-source and if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, then let an old (April) fool who has only made one comment on this talk page (about Mary Magdalene), but watches the watchers who watch, put in his two cents. My only passion is the Wikibook Christianity, the road less taken, so far. Tried my hand at templates on my Wikiversity page. Discovered the possibility of scrolling templates which would lend itself to the aesthete and actually focus this page on the centrality of the Cross rather than that hideous space. What we would want to emulate is the magazine style page layout. Christianity should lead the way, let the words flow from this day forth. - Athrash | Talk 23:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
This flight of fancy finally caught the attention of the right person, thanks, User:041744. Speaking of user boxes, one taken from that user's page is most appropriate —
So, first came {{Jesus}} then came {{Christianity}} in the cosmic order of things, (right) down the line. Peace be with you!!
The {{Template:Christianity}} could be reprogrammed to permanently show the three hidden sections. - Athrash | Talk 19:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Formerly I posted saying that Christianity, as refered to by the world today, is really many diferent religions. There was a lot of input on the subject,but no final overwhelming opinion. Therefore I am taking a vote on my talk page (to conserve space here) EVERYONE VOTE, WE NEED TO BRING IT TO A CONCLUSION. Thank you! Zantaggerung 15:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC) Everyone please vote, I NEED EVERYONES OPINION ON IT!
Truth by politics. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 19:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Since Wikipedia is in English and often tend to denote the Anglo-American POV rather than a universal view. This is the case with this issue too. Since most of the west is Christian, a person who is enquired about his/her faith, replies with the denomination. Afterall if someone asks me where am from, I don't reply am from earth (unless I want to be sarcastic or funny), but would state my nationality. But in the East Christians hardly mention about the denomination. I think wikipedia should be rather considering universal concepts rather than Anglo-American bias. Thanks! ώЇЌĩ Ѕαи Яоzε †αLҝ 03:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Please vote under the heading that you agree with. Only vote, no debate to be held here. Vote by putting a # sign and follow it with four tildes to sign and number your name. Thank you! Zantaggerung 15:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Comment Voting is evil. Decisions should not be made by votes but by consensus. See WP:VIE. However, straw polls are useful for determining consensus (or lack thereof). -- Richard 17:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
We aren't religious scholars. We aren't qualified to vote. What do they have to say about this? Whatever happened to using scholarly sources and attributing statements about Christianity to the scholars who actually said them?
People! Is Roman Catholascism christianity? ( as the world thinks of it) Is Lutheranism christianity? (as the world thinks of it)
Are they the same religion?
This is the question of the poll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are all missing my point! We are humans living on earth! I am asking you, as ordinary, people whether or not you think Roman Catholoscism ( for example) and Mormonism ( for axample) are "christian"(as the world thinks of it) religion/s! If you think they are, do you think they are the same religion?!!! Come on people! The reason I think this is important should be obvious. I am trying to find out if the world thinks that christianity is more than one religion, for the purpose of finding out if the Christianity article is incorrect in its statement that christianity is a religion. Zantaggerung 03:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
You missed my point again, but I can't explain it any better than I did. Sorry. Zantaggerung 14:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Zantaggerung, I can see your point. In fact, it is because I could see your point when you made it that I encouraged this discussion. However, after mulling it over for a while, I have decided to "come off the fence" on the side of Christianity being "a religion" rather than a "set of closely related religons".
Here is my reasoning...
You are trying to impose a very specific definition of the word "religion" which flies in the face of a very widespread popular usage. Both in the academic world and in the popular press, Christianity is generally referred to as "a religion" so as to distinguish it from other religions such as Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. Now, every major religion has sects, denominations, whatever. Islam has Sunni vs. Shiite. Buddhism has Theraveda vs. Mahayana. The Buddhists argue over whether there is an "eternal Buddha". I forget at the moment which side believes there is such a thing and which side does not. Check out Buddha for the details.
My point is... should we call Sunni Islam a different religion from Shiite Islam? Should we then say that Islam is a set of closely related religions? Should we say that Buddhism is a set of closely related religions as well? We could. And, if we were defining a formal language such as a programming language, we might very well do so. But, this is not the standard usage of the word "religion" in natural language and we are obliged to follow standard usage. To depart from standard usage would be original research.
Natural language is different from formal language and this is one of the ways that it is different. Despite what adherents may think, Christians are more alike than they are different. The same holds true for Sunni/Shiite Muslims and Theraveda/Mahayana Buddhists. That's why each of these major religions is considered "a religion" instead of a "set of closely related religions". And yes, part of this issue is laziness and sloppiness on the part of people when they talk and write. But you won't change this and, even if you wanted to try, Wikipedia is not the place to start. Wikipedia will use characterize Christianity as "a set of closely related religions" when the rest of the world does.
-- Richard 16:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The collaborative environment on this page has collapsed. No profitable participation is possible - edits with reliable sources are reverted without discussion. Discussion is ignored, and obstinate misunderstanding trumps patient explanation. Votes are substituted for research. This page is a prime example of a broken process. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 19:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I understand some editors may disagree that Christianity is a religion. I understand some editors may object to certain terms becuase they perceive a potential problem with equivocation. I understand many people have many opinions regarding religion. However, Wikipedia articles are not the place for our personal opinions. We must rely on the common discourse when discussing such a broad topic as Christianity. We cannot build our own logical arguments or build an argument from Scripture to support our views. If most reliable sources use a particular term or frame Christianity in a particular fashion, that is what this article should reflect. If a dissenting view is to be presented, it needs to be given only a passing mention and it needs to be attributed to a verifiable reference. Just some thoughts. Vassyana 23:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I mentioned this on Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses and User:George m suggested that I mention it here as well so here goes...
The experience that I'm sharing comes from working on other articles such as Aztec and United States where there are repeated controversies and where it is easier to simply document the consensus and the rationale behind them. If the explanation is short, it is done as an "in-line" comment in the article itself. If it's long, it's done on a subpage of the Talk Page. Once that's done, it's easier to mention where to find the explanation than to re-explain things to every new editor that comes along.
-- Richard 23:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Amen! -- Jonathan Swift 10 April 2007
The following sentence from the introduction gives a good example of some doubts I have with this article in general: Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God and the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament.
Amongst others: - It suggests that christianity is a single organisation/faith (and sort of contradicts with While there have been theological disputes over the nature of Jesus, most Christians believe that Jesus is God incarnate and "true God and true man" (or both fully divine and fully human). from a bit further down the article (under Jesus), instead of an umbrella of religions & cults with some related principles (this applies to article such as islam and buddhism, as well). I guess we've all seen some christian (religion) attacking another christ-following religion as not being 'christian'. - The overall traditional PoV in the article. Pointing back to my previous point: with such diversity within christianity it's hard to find out what the majority thinks. Even the largest christian organisation, the roman-catholic church, is very divided.
For an encyclopedia I think this article is not neutral enough. But considering this is subject is controversial and multi-faceted I doubt this will ever happen. Syrion 21:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is horribly unbalanced in terms of the amount of time given to various segments and the amount of time given to certain denominations.
I believe that we need a discussion of Jesus, who he was and what he espoused (in summary form) and then a much more focused discussion on the history and timeline of christianity and the various churches.
There are so many branches and sects of Christianity, that this can only be an overview. However, the history deserves more attention and the specific theologies deserve less attention. The current slant and terminologies used are far too heavily biased toward the Catholic church, for example. Liturgy, trinity, confessional, purgatory... are terminologies and doctrinal matters which many Christians do not even address as part of their faith.
My practical suggestion is that the major areas should be: - Christ (and His message and personal background) - the historical context of His life (the Roman Empire, the climate in Galilee/Judea, etc.) - the principal common beliefs in a much more abbreviated form (eg, addition of spiritual element without digressing into areas like the Trinity which many Christians do not accept) - the history after his death down to today (including splits in 1st C., patronage by the Roman Emperor, the various lineages from the 1st C. Churches to the modern day, etc.) - some attempt to classify groups beyond simply Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism (which has become the basket to toss anything in which can't be classified at Catholic or Orthodox). The Protestantism classification needs serious reconsidering here.
All other subjects such as Biblical scholarship, the detailed doctrines of major religions, the discussion of resurrection now or later, etc. need to be diverted to other pages.
213.140.6.119 18:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Baptists are Protestants. They actually have a lot in common with Anglicans.
As an actual Baptist, I find that highly offensive: we most certainly are Trinitarians. A.J.A. 16:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Some things to consider.
maybe like: http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm very informative of LDS The Jackal God 01:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
As I read this section a few points come to mind. It seems there is some confusion over the topic. This is not the Jesus article, but is more focused upon those who follow Him in an organized manner. Attempting to focus the article more on the first 500 years would fail the purpose of the article and its application to readers today. Those topics are valid and of strong interest, but they have their own subarticles. However, (and as an aside) I reject the logic that because they "failed" they were wrong or false.
I think the article appropriately focuses on majority views or beliefs. We are striving to describe Christianity and when the majority of Christians, Catholics, have a uniform belief system this article should reflect that. The article currently is written in such a way as to be focused on majority, but not to the exclusion of others groups.
One suggestion above is to review some of the terminology that is used because it is too "Catholic". That may have value and should be looked at by the group. As we write for the average reader, does the description of worship, etc. in the article give the impression that anything that does not follow exactly equate to being nonChristian? Many Protestants do not use the terminology used nor do they follow worship in the manner described. Today, I haven't made up my mind and would like to hear from other editors. -- Storm Rider (talk) 17:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
After reverting some terribly blatant POV pushing about circumcision which was placed in the lead, I noticed that it seems far shorter than it was a few days ago, but I can't seem to figure out what's missing....and even if nothing is missing, this is certainly much too short of a lead for an article this long. Homestarmy 16:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I still think there's something missing from the lead, how could it possibly be this short? Homestarmy 15:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
A question--shouldn't Quakers/Friends be mentioned at greater length in the article aside from the sole reference in regard to personal religious experience? I'm thinking it could me mentioned among, or as being similar to, groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, whose doctrines are at greater or lesser variance with the majority of other Christian groups. Does anyone think this would be appropriate/beneficial? Thank you. -- Dpr 19:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe this article should have a section on things borrowed from other religions. The christian traditions of today and the symbols have in large part been taken from non christian religions. things like Easter, Christmas, Rosary beads, the cross The Mary/Jesus image, all existed before and were adopted. Please discuss. Kljenni 14:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with George that my proposals, if implemented, are likely to lead to lots of controversy (and, sigh, probably POV-pushing and edit warring). Nonetheless, I think the points are worth making. -- Richard 05:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, as part of Christian evangelization, certain symbols, rituals, customs, now identified with Christianity, had evolved from pre-existing pagan counterparts. One notable example was the morphing of St. Nicholas (a historical clerical figure from antiquity) into a paganized Santa Claus (which actually translates as "Saint Nick"). However, paganism could not have influenced Christianity itself, which is, by definition, a unique belief system, quite distinct from pagan belief systems. Otherwise, I suppose we would have to have other such articles as well (Pagan Influences on Islam, Pagan Influences on Buddhism, Pagan Influences on Planetary Science, etc.) LotR 14:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
One thing that occurs to me is that some of the "new" aspects of Christianity are argued not to have been "new" to Christianity but, in fact, to have been part of evolving ideas in the Judaism of the time. This line of argument builds on the idea that Christianity started out as a Jewish sect. For example, the original concept of the afterlife in Judaism was "Sheol", a sort of limbo in which you were certainly not alive but you had not completely ceased to exist either. This evolved into a "life after death" which forms the basis of Christian belief in the after life. Similarly, baptism and other ritual cleansing rites were practiced by a number of Jewish sects including the Essenes.
I don't think that this is the place to discuss the details of the above-mentioned points but the question that I want to ask is... Should we have an article titled Pagan influences on Christianity or should it be a title that allows us to discuss these kinds of influences from Judaism as well. Influences on Christianity doesn't sound right. The alternative would be to add a separate article titled Judaic influences on Christianity.
-- Richard 16:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I would thnk an article discussing the Judaic origins of Christianity might be a better title? [[Judaic influences on modern Christianity]] might be another article? George 19:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Ah, Str1977, but *I* DO want a debate because it is by discussing that we learn things and develop consensus. What you say about "since the two share the origin a sharing of core doctrines is not an influence of one on the other" would be true if we were talking about Judaism and Hinduism since these two religions developed independently of each other. However, when we talk about Judaism and Christianity, it is clear that much of Christianity developed from Judaism. In other words, Judaism and Christianity do not "share an origin". Christianity and Islam share an origin (i.e. Judaism). Judaism IS the origin of Christianity as well as the origin of Islam (well, sort of, detailed debate of that assertion is getting off topic). I mean, no one doubts that the Ten Commandments came from the Pentateuch. That's a clear influence. No dispute whatsover.
What is far less clear is which portions of later Judaism influenced early Christianity as opposed to the other way around. Is there evidence that water cleansing rituals like those of the Essenes predated Jesus and John the Baptist? Is the Christian notion of resurrection of the dead uniquely Christian or did it come from Judaism? I don't know the answers to these questions but what little I know leads me to believe that these are valid questions which should be raised and addressed as being encyclopedic.
-- Richard 22:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Among the Jews, Pharisees (Zealots included) and Essenes and Christians also believed in the resurrection. Str1977
Why should the "Christianity" page talk about supposed pagan influences on Christianity? Do any reasonable scholars believe that any form of paganism has had a substantial influence on Christianity? If this is just some tiny minority viewpoint with nothing informative or worthwhile to say about the Christian religion, then it has no place here. On the other hand, if there's a noteworthy viewpoint that paganism had a substantial effect on Christianity, then we should include it. If it's only of historical or local interest, it can get just one paragraph. Jonathan Tweet 02:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, being an impatient sort of fellow, I decided not to wait for a resolution to my last question but to plunge ahead and create Pagan influences on Christianity. I'm still interested in figuring out what to do about the "Impact of evolving trends in Judaism on Christianity" question but I didn't think it was worth holding up the parade to resolve that question.
My suggestion is that further discussion of pagan influences on Christianity be held on the Talk Page of that article. See you there.
-- Richard 16:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
At the Christian page it says that this is the place to discuss merging it into this article. Seeing no such discussion here, I'll start one. I support the merge. It is already so difficult to define exactly what "Christian" really means. It is therefore even harder to do so consistently for two articles, namely this one and Christian. I think the fact that they have persisted as separate articles is a result either of inertia or of blatant POV-pushers who want to use the Christian article as a platform for their personal points of view. Merging the articles will make it much easier to maintain a consistent, quality article on this key topic. Fishal 15:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The Christian article is pretty lightweight compared to this one and should definitely be merged into this article. There may not be much that is worth merging. For example, the history section is adequately covered by this article and History of Christianity. -- Richard 16:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I will tell you why I opposed the merger. The term "Christian" as a label is what the that article should focus on. It should be a short article with a brief history of the term and how it is used. All doctrinal issues, beliefs and practices should be directed to this page. In other words, have the Christian article focus on the term and its use, but not on the theology. See Mormon for an example of this approach (Note that I oppose the "Basic beliefs" section in that article, but you can't win all your battles.) Bytebear 19:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
In its current state the Christian article is useless and is not fit to be an article. However I don't think it should be merged into Christianity, but rather all content deleted and the article rewritten with a focus on the history and the controversy surrounding the term. Were the article rewritten like that, I would oppose a merger. Ian Goggin 18:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The article as it stands is pretty blantant POV pushing, constituting basically a POV fork of Christianity. I agree, content should be deleted and the article should be rewritten. Fishhead64 19:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
French politician
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Part Deux
19:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)i agree with Richard, youll get a better knowledge if it is merged with Christian STING 86.154.85.58 22:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Richard, that is indeed very bold. You deleted a whole lot of content, and I'm reverting the edit. However, the material currently there will fit in nicely with "Christian" as an adjective. And since Part Deux's definition is a lousy one - there's more to being a Christian that that - it would be a mistake to merge the two articles. StAnselm 23:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
A Christian is a person whose faith is Christianity. People and their faith are two different things. In the Christian article, the people should be talked about. In Christianity, the faith itself should be explained. I hope this helps to settle the argument. ;) DebateKid 14:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the mention of ichtys include a link to the concerning article? CubOfJudahsLion 01:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Christianity encompasses a lot of differenct belief systems, most of which hold to the concept of a supreme trinity. Additionally, consider the worship and prayer some followers direct towards the virgin Mary, angels, and demons including Lucifer, and the diverse pantheon of saints. Even if most Christians acknowledge these entities while insisting that their religion is a monotheism, strictly referring to Christianity as a monotheism seems misleading if not actually erroneous. Given the diverse attitudes and behaviors of those who are considered to be Christians, I would probably use the modified description "nominally monotheistic" in the introductory paragraph. ~ Eldrichgaiman 16:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Catholism worships angels, saints, and the trinity. Catholisim and (maybe) orthodoxy, is a part of christianity, but not the only denomonation. That is the only part of christianity that does that sort of worship. Protstantism does not allow that, AT ALL.
And even those two denomonations have only one God. The trinity is apart of God, the father, the son, and holy spirit. It is like a clover, its three parts aren't 3 different leaves, but the same leaf.
No part of Christianity worships demons, NONE AT ALL. That is somehow occasionally confused with Christianity
Although I would agree that there are strong arguments against most Christian sects being monotheistic, these probably should be presented lower in the text, and not in the LEAD. -- Filll 18:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Such as what? What do you want? If it is not clear to you that there are strong arguments against most of Christian sects being monotheistic, then it is probably pointless to discuss it. But I would suggest you read about unitarianism and arianism and the Muslim view of the trinity to understand some of the objections.-- Filll 18:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Look, it's really quite irrelevant for us to argue whether Christianity is or is not monotheistic.
I think Christianity is monotheistic.
For better or worse, Christianity has re-defined monotheism so that it is included within the new definition of the word. This "new" definition is almost 2000 years old so it's not exactly a "new" concept.
Yes, there are those (Jews, Muslims, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses among them) who might dispute this new definition. Nonetheless, in common parlance and in the academic community, this new definition is considered to be at least one of the acceptable definitions of monotheism.
It may be a POV to assert that Christianity is monotheistic but it is equally POV to assert that it is not. For the most part, the view that it is not monotheistic is a minority viewpoint.
Wikipedia is not about "THE TRUTH". It is about representing the "sum of human knowledge" even when human knowledge is fractured about what is true. Wikipedia's NPOV policy requires us to present all POVs without giving undue weight to any POV.
-- Richard 19:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
It is not POV in this case for the article to call Christianity monotheistic, as the many, many, many reliable sources (Several of which are not listed in the note, because they are in the general references sections) ranging from books to scholarly articles to other encyclopedias to a whole bunch of other things call it monotheistic, and the usage of the term in the lead here (without any qualifications) fully complies with the Verifiability standards. I'd know, I referenced the thing to start with, and when the opposing side could come up with 0 useful references, (Even when they could of been found easily methinks, I don't remember a single link being provided, even to a Muslim apologetics site or something) that pretty much closed the debate. To write the supposed controversy into the intro or relegate it to the bottom with the unreferenced qualification "self-identifies" (Almost none of the references use that wording.) would be like writing in Islams intro "Although it considers itself an Abrahamic religion, many people from Christianity and Judaism consider Islam's claim of lineage questionable", and I don't think that would go over so well either. Homestarmy 20:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, to claim that there are Christian sects which are not monotheistic beg a citation. I am sure, if they exist, they are marginal - because I'm a theologian, and I've not heard of them. Second, to claim that saints and other holy figures are in some sense lesser deities represents the very definition of original research. Third, while other religious groups may interpret Christianity as believing something Christians themselves are at pains to point out they explicitly do not believe, that is why we have articles such as Islam and Christianity, Criticisms of Christianity, and Holy Trinity. Broadening the discussion in these three articles would be welcome. Fishhead64 21:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Good grief... I could remake the Hindu religion by arguing that all their gods are just manifestations of a single god (in fact, I think some Hindus do argue that all the Hindu gods are manifestations of Krishna). Would that make my version of Hinduism a monotheistic religion? It's not enough for a religion to assert that it is monotheistic for us to conclude that it is incontrovertibly monotheistic. It is also a bit tautological to claim that the overwhelming majority of mainstream Christian scholars consider mainstream Christianity to be monotheistic.
The fact remains that many groups outside mainstream Christianity accuse Christianity of not being monotheistic. This starts with nonTrinitarians. Cf the Wikipedia article on Nontrinitarianism.
The Jehovah's Witnesses are the most notable "Christian" group that attacks mainstream Christianity as being non-monotheistic.
O.K., I think that Jehovah Witnesses aren't Christians. Their beliefs are not Christian. Yes similar, close but no cigar. They do not believe in the Bible, but two magazines(Awake! and Watchtower). Christians follow holidays, they do not. They have often tried to predict the end times when in the holy bible it says that no one knows the day or hour of christs return. Not even the angels or the saints know(and you thought the government had secrets lol). They don't believe Christ is God(and he is according to the holy bible) and instead is a mere man who basically is a prophet. They claim that he was torchered on a stake, when clearly in the bible it says he was crucified ("pierced through the hands and feet").
That said, if there is a POV (albeit a minority POV) that mainstream Christianity is not monotheistic then it logically follows that there is a majority POV that mainstream Christianity is monotheistic. Put another way, we cannot assert it as incontrovertible truth that mainstream Christianity is monotheistic if there are reliable sources that dispute the assertion. Thus, under Wikipedia's NPOV policy, we must present all POVs although we are not required to give minority POVs undue weight.
-- Richard 16:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I have to confess that I had never read the Monotheism article which does a pretty good job of covering the topic.
Here is the "Christian view" section of that article...
Some Christian denominations, such as the Roman Catholic Church practice Veneration of Saints, which critics claim is a form of polytheism. However, Roman Catholic teaching regards veneration of saints and prayers to saints as no different from petitioning a living person to pray to God on behalf of the petitioner.
Since Monotheism is linked to in the first sentence of the lead, I think that's all the treatment that is necessary. If someone really wants to understand about the monotheistic nature of Christianity, they can click on the Wikilink.
-- Richard 17:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Don't feed the troll. Christianity is a monotheistic religion. period. We had such pointless discussions before ... there is absolutely no need to discuss this any further. Str1977 (smile back) 18:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | Archive 41 | Archive 42 | Archive 43 | Archive 44 | Archive 45 | → | Archive 50 |
All of the current discussions bring a question to mind. What or who actually is a Christian? Most denominations believe that there is only one true Christian faith. At least the biggest do. (Catholic, Eastern orthodox) they say different in interfaith discussions but elsewhere the posture is so. Therefore the question in my mind is, Why the attack on small or unorthodox groups? Who really is a Christian? The harldiners here are sure JW's and mormons are not Christians because of the Trinity. Yet, each denomination and sects within each denomination have differing views on the trinity. Just google blogs for trinity. Everyone is a heretic because all these incorrect beliefs in the trinity are heresies. Since none completely agree on what the trinity actually, who really is a Christian if this is the measure of a true Christian? George 20:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
"How can Christians be one of mind and faith if their faith is in disagreement over the elements of the most fundamental doctrine?" I don't think anyone calling themselves Christian would say that their faith is in disagreement; we all proclaim that our faith is in God. As there does appear to be some disagreement regarding the nature of God (though not nearly as much as you seem to imply), it does appear that not all who call themselves Christian are one of mind and faith. As Mark said, there's nothing remarkable about this. Does it seem to you that the article doesn't already cover this adequately? Wesley 16:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you Wesley! I am disturbed by the attitude that JW's are not Christians. Your reply seems to affirm they are. George 17:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Christianity is outlined in the Bible by Christ and by his inspired followers including Paul, John and James. These people warned that men would come in teaching false doctrine and bringing divisive sects. This has happened as Jesus said it would. Now there are thousands of sects and they disagree on the basics. Is God a Trinity? Is Jesus equal to his Father? is homosexuallity acceptable? some say it is because all sins are forgiven, while others point out the scriptural prohibition of it. The bottom line is a person can make any claim to be anything they want to be such as a claim of Christianness. Jesus will not be fooled by anyones claim. He said that those who do the will of his father are the ones who will inherit the Kingdom, while those who don't, won't. Kljenni 01:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
At least we agree on that. George 02:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I would like to clarify what a Christian truly is, if this is what all the debate is about. A Christian is someone who believes that Jesus died on the cross to forgive our sins, believes that He rose in three days, and trusts Him as their Lord. Tere may be other implications, but this is what has to be done: Acts 16:31 "They (Paul and Silas) said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.'" However, this does not mean that just because one person in a family becomes saved that all will. DebateKid 21:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Do aesthetics matter where hordes tag templates of redundancy, ignore such voids as white space and work with primitive text tools because software is lacking. Where is the genius of open-source and if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, then let an old (April) fool who has only made one comment on this talk page (about Mary Magdalene), but watches the watchers who watch, put in his two cents. My only passion is the Wikibook Christianity, the road less taken, so far. Tried my hand at templates on my Wikiversity page. Discovered the possibility of scrolling templates which would lend itself to the aesthete and actually focus this page on the centrality of the Cross rather than that hideous space. What we would want to emulate is the magazine style page layout. Christianity should lead the way, let the words flow from this day forth. - Athrash | Talk 23:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
This flight of fancy finally caught the attention of the right person, thanks, User:041744. Speaking of user boxes, one taken from that user's page is most appropriate —
So, first came {{Jesus}} then came {{Christianity}} in the cosmic order of things, (right) down the line. Peace be with you!!
The {{Template:Christianity}} could be reprogrammed to permanently show the three hidden sections. - Athrash | Talk 19:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Formerly I posted saying that Christianity, as refered to by the world today, is really many diferent religions. There was a lot of input on the subject,but no final overwhelming opinion. Therefore I am taking a vote on my talk page (to conserve space here) EVERYONE VOTE, WE NEED TO BRING IT TO A CONCLUSION. Thank you! Zantaggerung 15:32, 2 April 2007 (UTC) Everyone please vote, I NEED EVERYONES OPINION ON IT!
Truth by politics. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 19:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Since Wikipedia is in English and often tend to denote the Anglo-American POV rather than a universal view. This is the case with this issue too. Since most of the west is Christian, a person who is enquired about his/her faith, replies with the denomination. Afterall if someone asks me where am from, I don't reply am from earth (unless I want to be sarcastic or funny), but would state my nationality. But in the East Christians hardly mention about the denomination. I think wikipedia should be rather considering universal concepts rather than Anglo-American bias. Thanks! ώЇЌĩ Ѕαи Яоzε †αLҝ 03:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Please vote under the heading that you agree with. Only vote, no debate to be held here. Vote by putting a # sign and follow it with four tildes to sign and number your name. Thank you! Zantaggerung 15:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Comment Voting is evil. Decisions should not be made by votes but by consensus. See WP:VIE. However, straw polls are useful for determining consensus (or lack thereof). -- Richard 17:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
We aren't religious scholars. We aren't qualified to vote. What do they have to say about this? Whatever happened to using scholarly sources and attributing statements about Christianity to the scholars who actually said them?
People! Is Roman Catholascism christianity? ( as the world thinks of it) Is Lutheranism christianity? (as the world thinks of it)
Are they the same religion?
This is the question of the poll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are all missing my point! We are humans living on earth! I am asking you, as ordinary, people whether or not you think Roman Catholoscism ( for example) and Mormonism ( for axample) are "christian"(as the world thinks of it) religion/s! If you think they are, do you think they are the same religion?!!! Come on people! The reason I think this is important should be obvious. I am trying to find out if the world thinks that christianity is more than one religion, for the purpose of finding out if the Christianity article is incorrect in its statement that christianity is a religion. Zantaggerung 03:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
You missed my point again, but I can't explain it any better than I did. Sorry. Zantaggerung 14:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Zantaggerung, I can see your point. In fact, it is because I could see your point when you made it that I encouraged this discussion. However, after mulling it over for a while, I have decided to "come off the fence" on the side of Christianity being "a religion" rather than a "set of closely related religons".
Here is my reasoning...
You are trying to impose a very specific definition of the word "religion" which flies in the face of a very widespread popular usage. Both in the academic world and in the popular press, Christianity is generally referred to as "a religion" so as to distinguish it from other religions such as Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism. Now, every major religion has sects, denominations, whatever. Islam has Sunni vs. Shiite. Buddhism has Theraveda vs. Mahayana. The Buddhists argue over whether there is an "eternal Buddha". I forget at the moment which side believes there is such a thing and which side does not. Check out Buddha for the details.
My point is... should we call Sunni Islam a different religion from Shiite Islam? Should we then say that Islam is a set of closely related religions? Should we say that Buddhism is a set of closely related religions as well? We could. And, if we were defining a formal language such as a programming language, we might very well do so. But, this is not the standard usage of the word "religion" in natural language and we are obliged to follow standard usage. To depart from standard usage would be original research.
Natural language is different from formal language and this is one of the ways that it is different. Despite what adherents may think, Christians are more alike than they are different. The same holds true for Sunni/Shiite Muslims and Theraveda/Mahayana Buddhists. That's why each of these major religions is considered "a religion" instead of a "set of closely related religions". And yes, part of this issue is laziness and sloppiness on the part of people when they talk and write. But you won't change this and, even if you wanted to try, Wikipedia is not the place to start. Wikipedia will use characterize Christianity as "a set of closely related religions" when the rest of the world does.
-- Richard 16:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
The collaborative environment on this page has collapsed. No profitable participation is possible - edits with reliable sources are reverted without discussion. Discussion is ignored, and obstinate misunderstanding trumps patient explanation. Votes are substituted for research. This page is a prime example of a broken process. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 19:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I understand some editors may disagree that Christianity is a religion. I understand some editors may object to certain terms becuase they perceive a potential problem with equivocation. I understand many people have many opinions regarding religion. However, Wikipedia articles are not the place for our personal opinions. We must rely on the common discourse when discussing such a broad topic as Christianity. We cannot build our own logical arguments or build an argument from Scripture to support our views. If most reliable sources use a particular term or frame Christianity in a particular fashion, that is what this article should reflect. If a dissenting view is to be presented, it needs to be given only a passing mention and it needs to be attributed to a verifiable reference. Just some thoughts. Vassyana 23:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I mentioned this on Talk:Jehovah's Witnesses and User:George m suggested that I mention it here as well so here goes...
The experience that I'm sharing comes from working on other articles such as Aztec and United States where there are repeated controversies and where it is easier to simply document the consensus and the rationale behind them. If the explanation is short, it is done as an "in-line" comment in the article itself. If it's long, it's done on a subpage of the Talk Page. Once that's done, it's easier to mention where to find the explanation than to re-explain things to every new editor that comes along.
-- Richard 23:58, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Amen! -- Jonathan Swift 10 April 2007
The following sentence from the introduction gives a good example of some doubts I have with this article in general: Christians believe Jesus to be the Son of God and the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament.
Amongst others: - It suggests that christianity is a single organisation/faith (and sort of contradicts with While there have been theological disputes over the nature of Jesus, most Christians believe that Jesus is God incarnate and "true God and true man" (or both fully divine and fully human). from a bit further down the article (under Jesus), instead of an umbrella of religions & cults with some related principles (this applies to article such as islam and buddhism, as well). I guess we've all seen some christian (religion) attacking another christ-following religion as not being 'christian'. - The overall traditional PoV in the article. Pointing back to my previous point: with such diversity within christianity it's hard to find out what the majority thinks. Even the largest christian organisation, the roman-catholic church, is very divided.
For an encyclopedia I think this article is not neutral enough. But considering this is subject is controversial and multi-faceted I doubt this will ever happen. Syrion 21:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is horribly unbalanced in terms of the amount of time given to various segments and the amount of time given to certain denominations.
I believe that we need a discussion of Jesus, who he was and what he espoused (in summary form) and then a much more focused discussion on the history and timeline of christianity and the various churches.
There are so many branches and sects of Christianity, that this can only be an overview. However, the history deserves more attention and the specific theologies deserve less attention. The current slant and terminologies used are far too heavily biased toward the Catholic church, for example. Liturgy, trinity, confessional, purgatory... are terminologies and doctrinal matters which many Christians do not even address as part of their faith.
My practical suggestion is that the major areas should be: - Christ (and His message and personal background) - the historical context of His life (the Roman Empire, the climate in Galilee/Judea, etc.) - the principal common beliefs in a much more abbreviated form (eg, addition of spiritual element without digressing into areas like the Trinity which many Christians do not accept) - the history after his death down to today (including splits in 1st C., patronage by the Roman Emperor, the various lineages from the 1st C. Churches to the modern day, etc.) - some attempt to classify groups beyond simply Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism (which has become the basket to toss anything in which can't be classified at Catholic or Orthodox). The Protestantism classification needs serious reconsidering here.
All other subjects such as Biblical scholarship, the detailed doctrines of major religions, the discussion of resurrection now or later, etc. need to be diverted to other pages.
213.140.6.119 18:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Baptists are Protestants. They actually have a lot in common with Anglicans.
As an actual Baptist, I find that highly offensive: we most certainly are Trinitarians. A.J.A. 16:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Some things to consider.
maybe like: http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm very informative of LDS The Jackal God 01:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
As I read this section a few points come to mind. It seems there is some confusion over the topic. This is not the Jesus article, but is more focused upon those who follow Him in an organized manner. Attempting to focus the article more on the first 500 years would fail the purpose of the article and its application to readers today. Those topics are valid and of strong interest, but they have their own subarticles. However, (and as an aside) I reject the logic that because they "failed" they were wrong or false.
I think the article appropriately focuses on majority views or beliefs. We are striving to describe Christianity and when the majority of Christians, Catholics, have a uniform belief system this article should reflect that. The article currently is written in such a way as to be focused on majority, but not to the exclusion of others groups.
One suggestion above is to review some of the terminology that is used because it is too "Catholic". That may have value and should be looked at by the group. As we write for the average reader, does the description of worship, etc. in the article give the impression that anything that does not follow exactly equate to being nonChristian? Many Protestants do not use the terminology used nor do they follow worship in the manner described. Today, I haven't made up my mind and would like to hear from other editors. -- Storm Rider (talk) 17:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
After reverting some terribly blatant POV pushing about circumcision which was placed in the lead, I noticed that it seems far shorter than it was a few days ago, but I can't seem to figure out what's missing....and even if nothing is missing, this is certainly much too short of a lead for an article this long. Homestarmy 16:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I still think there's something missing from the lead, how could it possibly be this short? Homestarmy 15:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
A question--shouldn't Quakers/Friends be mentioned at greater length in the article aside from the sole reference in regard to personal religious experience? I'm thinking it could me mentioned among, or as being similar to, groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, whose doctrines are at greater or lesser variance with the majority of other Christian groups. Does anyone think this would be appropriate/beneficial? Thank you. -- Dpr 19:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe this article should have a section on things borrowed from other religions. The christian traditions of today and the symbols have in large part been taken from non christian religions. things like Easter, Christmas, Rosary beads, the cross The Mary/Jesus image, all existed before and were adopted. Please discuss. Kljenni 14:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with George that my proposals, if implemented, are likely to lead to lots of controversy (and, sigh, probably POV-pushing and edit warring). Nonetheless, I think the points are worth making. -- Richard 05:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, as part of Christian evangelization, certain symbols, rituals, customs, now identified with Christianity, had evolved from pre-existing pagan counterparts. One notable example was the morphing of St. Nicholas (a historical clerical figure from antiquity) into a paganized Santa Claus (which actually translates as "Saint Nick"). However, paganism could not have influenced Christianity itself, which is, by definition, a unique belief system, quite distinct from pagan belief systems. Otherwise, I suppose we would have to have other such articles as well (Pagan Influences on Islam, Pagan Influences on Buddhism, Pagan Influences on Planetary Science, etc.) LotR 14:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
One thing that occurs to me is that some of the "new" aspects of Christianity are argued not to have been "new" to Christianity but, in fact, to have been part of evolving ideas in the Judaism of the time. This line of argument builds on the idea that Christianity started out as a Jewish sect. For example, the original concept of the afterlife in Judaism was "Sheol", a sort of limbo in which you were certainly not alive but you had not completely ceased to exist either. This evolved into a "life after death" which forms the basis of Christian belief in the after life. Similarly, baptism and other ritual cleansing rites were practiced by a number of Jewish sects including the Essenes.
I don't think that this is the place to discuss the details of the above-mentioned points but the question that I want to ask is... Should we have an article titled Pagan influences on Christianity or should it be a title that allows us to discuss these kinds of influences from Judaism as well. Influences on Christianity doesn't sound right. The alternative would be to add a separate article titled Judaic influences on Christianity.
-- Richard 16:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I would thnk an article discussing the Judaic origins of Christianity might be a better title? [[Judaic influences on modern Christianity]] might be another article? George 19:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Ah, Str1977, but *I* DO want a debate because it is by discussing that we learn things and develop consensus. What you say about "since the two share the origin a sharing of core doctrines is not an influence of one on the other" would be true if we were talking about Judaism and Hinduism since these two religions developed independently of each other. However, when we talk about Judaism and Christianity, it is clear that much of Christianity developed from Judaism. In other words, Judaism and Christianity do not "share an origin". Christianity and Islam share an origin (i.e. Judaism). Judaism IS the origin of Christianity as well as the origin of Islam (well, sort of, detailed debate of that assertion is getting off topic). I mean, no one doubts that the Ten Commandments came from the Pentateuch. That's a clear influence. No dispute whatsover.
What is far less clear is which portions of later Judaism influenced early Christianity as opposed to the other way around. Is there evidence that water cleansing rituals like those of the Essenes predated Jesus and John the Baptist? Is the Christian notion of resurrection of the dead uniquely Christian or did it come from Judaism? I don't know the answers to these questions but what little I know leads me to believe that these are valid questions which should be raised and addressed as being encyclopedic.
-- Richard 22:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Among the Jews, Pharisees (Zealots included) and Essenes and Christians also believed in the resurrection. Str1977
Why should the "Christianity" page talk about supposed pagan influences on Christianity? Do any reasonable scholars believe that any form of paganism has had a substantial influence on Christianity? If this is just some tiny minority viewpoint with nothing informative or worthwhile to say about the Christian religion, then it has no place here. On the other hand, if there's a noteworthy viewpoint that paganism had a substantial effect on Christianity, then we should include it. If it's only of historical or local interest, it can get just one paragraph. Jonathan Tweet 02:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, being an impatient sort of fellow, I decided not to wait for a resolution to my last question but to plunge ahead and create Pagan influences on Christianity. I'm still interested in figuring out what to do about the "Impact of evolving trends in Judaism on Christianity" question but I didn't think it was worth holding up the parade to resolve that question.
My suggestion is that further discussion of pagan influences on Christianity be held on the Talk Page of that article. See you there.
-- Richard 16:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
At the Christian page it says that this is the place to discuss merging it into this article. Seeing no such discussion here, I'll start one. I support the merge. It is already so difficult to define exactly what "Christian" really means. It is therefore even harder to do so consistently for two articles, namely this one and Christian. I think the fact that they have persisted as separate articles is a result either of inertia or of blatant POV-pushers who want to use the Christian article as a platform for their personal points of view. Merging the articles will make it much easier to maintain a consistent, quality article on this key topic. Fishal 15:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The Christian article is pretty lightweight compared to this one and should definitely be merged into this article. There may not be much that is worth merging. For example, the history section is adequately covered by this article and History of Christianity. -- Richard 16:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I will tell you why I opposed the merger. The term "Christian" as a label is what the that article should focus on. It should be a short article with a brief history of the term and how it is used. All doctrinal issues, beliefs and practices should be directed to this page. In other words, have the Christian article focus on the term and its use, but not on the theology. See Mormon for an example of this approach (Note that I oppose the "Basic beliefs" section in that article, but you can't win all your battles.) Bytebear 19:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
In its current state the Christian article is useless and is not fit to be an article. However I don't think it should be merged into Christianity, but rather all content deleted and the article rewritten with a focus on the history and the controversy surrounding the term. Were the article rewritten like that, I would oppose a merger. Ian Goggin 18:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
The article as it stands is pretty blantant POV pushing, constituting basically a POV fork of Christianity. I agree, content should be deleted and the article should be rewritten. Fishhead64 19:12, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
French politician
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Part Deux
19:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)i agree with Richard, youll get a better knowledge if it is merged with Christian STING 86.154.85.58 22:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Richard, that is indeed very bold. You deleted a whole lot of content, and I'm reverting the edit. However, the material currently there will fit in nicely with "Christian" as an adjective. And since Part Deux's definition is a lousy one - there's more to being a Christian that that - it would be a mistake to merge the two articles. StAnselm 23:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
A Christian is a person whose faith is Christianity. People and their faith are two different things. In the Christian article, the people should be talked about. In Christianity, the faith itself should be explained. I hope this helps to settle the argument. ;) DebateKid 14:24, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the mention of ichtys include a link to the concerning article? CubOfJudahsLion 01:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Christianity encompasses a lot of differenct belief systems, most of which hold to the concept of a supreme trinity. Additionally, consider the worship and prayer some followers direct towards the virgin Mary, angels, and demons including Lucifer, and the diverse pantheon of saints. Even if most Christians acknowledge these entities while insisting that their religion is a monotheism, strictly referring to Christianity as a monotheism seems misleading if not actually erroneous. Given the diverse attitudes and behaviors of those who are considered to be Christians, I would probably use the modified description "nominally monotheistic" in the introductory paragraph. ~ Eldrichgaiman 16:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Catholism worships angels, saints, and the trinity. Catholisim and (maybe) orthodoxy, is a part of christianity, but not the only denomonation. That is the only part of christianity that does that sort of worship. Protstantism does not allow that, AT ALL.
And even those two denomonations have only one God. The trinity is apart of God, the father, the son, and holy spirit. It is like a clover, its three parts aren't 3 different leaves, but the same leaf.
No part of Christianity worships demons, NONE AT ALL. That is somehow occasionally confused with Christianity
Although I would agree that there are strong arguments against most Christian sects being monotheistic, these probably should be presented lower in the text, and not in the LEAD. -- Filll 18:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Such as what? What do you want? If it is not clear to you that there are strong arguments against most of Christian sects being monotheistic, then it is probably pointless to discuss it. But I would suggest you read about unitarianism and arianism and the Muslim view of the trinity to understand some of the objections.-- Filll 18:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Look, it's really quite irrelevant for us to argue whether Christianity is or is not monotheistic.
I think Christianity is monotheistic.
For better or worse, Christianity has re-defined monotheism so that it is included within the new definition of the word. This "new" definition is almost 2000 years old so it's not exactly a "new" concept.
Yes, there are those (Jews, Muslims, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses among them) who might dispute this new definition. Nonetheless, in common parlance and in the academic community, this new definition is considered to be at least one of the acceptable definitions of monotheism.
It may be a POV to assert that Christianity is monotheistic but it is equally POV to assert that it is not. For the most part, the view that it is not monotheistic is a minority viewpoint.
Wikipedia is not about "THE TRUTH". It is about representing the "sum of human knowledge" even when human knowledge is fractured about what is true. Wikipedia's NPOV policy requires us to present all POVs without giving undue weight to any POV.
-- Richard 19:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
It is not POV in this case for the article to call Christianity monotheistic, as the many, many, many reliable sources (Several of which are not listed in the note, because they are in the general references sections) ranging from books to scholarly articles to other encyclopedias to a whole bunch of other things call it monotheistic, and the usage of the term in the lead here (without any qualifications) fully complies with the Verifiability standards. I'd know, I referenced the thing to start with, and when the opposing side could come up with 0 useful references, (Even when they could of been found easily methinks, I don't remember a single link being provided, even to a Muslim apologetics site or something) that pretty much closed the debate. To write the supposed controversy into the intro or relegate it to the bottom with the unreferenced qualification "self-identifies" (Almost none of the references use that wording.) would be like writing in Islams intro "Although it considers itself an Abrahamic religion, many people from Christianity and Judaism consider Islam's claim of lineage questionable", and I don't think that would go over so well either. Homestarmy 20:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, to claim that there are Christian sects which are not monotheistic beg a citation. I am sure, if they exist, they are marginal - because I'm a theologian, and I've not heard of them. Second, to claim that saints and other holy figures are in some sense lesser deities represents the very definition of original research. Third, while other religious groups may interpret Christianity as believing something Christians themselves are at pains to point out they explicitly do not believe, that is why we have articles such as Islam and Christianity, Criticisms of Christianity, and Holy Trinity. Broadening the discussion in these three articles would be welcome. Fishhead64 21:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Good grief... I could remake the Hindu religion by arguing that all their gods are just manifestations of a single god (in fact, I think some Hindus do argue that all the Hindu gods are manifestations of Krishna). Would that make my version of Hinduism a monotheistic religion? It's not enough for a religion to assert that it is monotheistic for us to conclude that it is incontrovertibly monotheistic. It is also a bit tautological to claim that the overwhelming majority of mainstream Christian scholars consider mainstream Christianity to be monotheistic.
The fact remains that many groups outside mainstream Christianity accuse Christianity of not being monotheistic. This starts with nonTrinitarians. Cf the Wikipedia article on Nontrinitarianism.
The Jehovah's Witnesses are the most notable "Christian" group that attacks mainstream Christianity as being non-monotheistic.
O.K., I think that Jehovah Witnesses aren't Christians. Their beliefs are not Christian. Yes similar, close but no cigar. They do not believe in the Bible, but two magazines(Awake! and Watchtower). Christians follow holidays, they do not. They have often tried to predict the end times when in the holy bible it says that no one knows the day or hour of christs return. Not even the angels or the saints know(and you thought the government had secrets lol). They don't believe Christ is God(and he is according to the holy bible) and instead is a mere man who basically is a prophet. They claim that he was torchered on a stake, when clearly in the bible it says he was crucified ("pierced through the hands and feet").
That said, if there is a POV (albeit a minority POV) that mainstream Christianity is not monotheistic then it logically follows that there is a majority POV that mainstream Christianity is monotheistic. Put another way, we cannot assert it as incontrovertible truth that mainstream Christianity is monotheistic if there are reliable sources that dispute the assertion. Thus, under Wikipedia's NPOV policy, we must present all POVs although we are not required to give minority POVs undue weight.
-- Richard 16:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I have to confess that I had never read the Monotheism article which does a pretty good job of covering the topic.
Here is the "Christian view" section of that article...
Some Christian denominations, such as the Roman Catholic Church practice Veneration of Saints, which critics claim is a form of polytheism. However, Roman Catholic teaching regards veneration of saints and prayers to saints as no different from petitioning a living person to pray to God on behalf of the petitioner.
Since Monotheism is linked to in the first sentence of the lead, I think that's all the treatment that is necessary. If someone really wants to understand about the monotheistic nature of Christianity, they can click on the Wikilink.
-- Richard 17:36, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Don't feed the troll. Christianity is a monotheistic religion. period. We had such pointless discussions before ... there is absolutely no need to discuss this any further. Str1977 (smile back) 18:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)