![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 35 | ← | Archive 39 | Archive 40 | Archive 41 | Archive 42 | Archive 43 | → | Archive 45 |
I politely request that people tone down the rhetoric and, if necessary, take a breather. We're all trying to do our best to improve Wikipedia, and sometimes things do get heated and there are POV conflicts, but that's no excuse for incivility. This is not directed at any single editor, but rather a general appeal. If we're just arguing and flinging out accusations, we're not focusing on productive consensus building and constructive criticism, which is what should be our focus on the talk page. Vassyana 01:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
A few days ago, I made a snide remark in response to Str1977's comment that "there was no consensus" to remove the text of the Nicene Creed from this article. My response was made on a good faith assessment from the discussion at the time that the consensus seemed to be running 7-8 for removal and or 1 or 2 against. The results of the straw poll seem to indicate that the sentiment is running approximately 2-1 for removal of the text. Thus, it seems that Str1977's comment that "there was no consensus to remove the text" is at least partly correct in that the sentiment to remove the text is far from unanimous. And thus it was inappropriate for me to cast aspersions on his motivation for making it.
That said, it should also be apparent that "there is no consensus for keeping the text". What we have here is "a failure to reach consensus". And, in the meantime, the article remains protected. What we need now is to find a way to reach consensus.
It is my feeling that it is not really critical to have the text of the Nicene creed in the article. An easy solution would be for those who favor including it to explain why it is critical i.e. why the article would be incomplete and unencyclopedic without it.
Now, don't get me wrong, I love the Nicene creed and have it so memorized that I often accidentally insert bits of it when we recite the Apostle's creed. But, why is it important for it to be in the article? If it doesn't represent all of Christian belief then why fight so hard to have it included here?
-- Richard 18:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Reading the comments here, I have a few questions:
Comment. It seems as though the general consensus is moving towards the removal of the Nicene Creed. However, to prevent edit conflicts and ending back at a similar point, we do need to address the above questions, in my opinion. (It's just my opinion, feel free to disagree.) It makes no sense to rush to unprotection agreeing and tolerating the removal of the full quote, only to end up in conflict over what to then do with the section. Please answer under the appropriate section just to keep the differant questions seperated for clarity. Vassyana 08:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Are we ready to move on to discussions as to how the Creed should be represented in the text instead of a full quote? Vassyana makes good points but I just want to be clear if we have a tentative concensus to move forward. If we do then discussion from this point should revolve aroud NPOV and stylistic concerns. Please squeak loudly if you feel events are moving too fast. Sophia 08:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I was invited to make the edit I had recommended a while ago, and just did so. I'd like to encourage those editors here who have been doing so much thinking about this issue to take a look at our Nicene Creed article. There are some very uncontroversial improvements that could be made there. For example, we currently have "...originally written in Greek, the language of the eastern Mediterranean..." in the article... Jkelly 19:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello. Thank you for your efforts. In reference to the statement that: Christians identify Jesus as the Messiah. This title comes from the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (māšiáħ) meaning "the anointed one" - the translation of the Hebrew word is incorrect. The literal and correct translation of the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (pronounced mo-shi-ach) is "Messenger". Definitely and absolutely does not translate as "The Annointed One".
Thank you again for your efforts. Charlesr44 09:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Come on, folks. Use this Wikipedia thing. The Greek word Christos from which we get Christianity means "anointed" and is a translation of Moshiach. Other English words from that Greek word include "chrism" and "christen". See messiah and Christ.
The word for "messenger" in Hebrew is mal'ach, which is translated into Greek as aggelos (pronounced angelos) and from which we get " angel". -- FOo 02:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
A lot, and I mean a lot of this article is written from a Christian POV.
You can't just write "according to the Gospels" our "Christians believe/consider/understand" here and there.
Understand salvation as? Very weak. I appreciate the attempt at controlling the bias but that's not good enough for an encyclopedia. Why not just write "Christians believe salvation is a gift by unmerited grace of God, who sent Jesus as the savior." Notice how "our salvation" all of the sudden becomes assumed? And consider the phrase "a gift by unmerited grace of God." Who would understand what that means if they are not Christian? No one uses the word "grace" very much anymore. You could rewrite it as "a gift from God which they believe to be unmerited." There is no need to repeat "who sent Jesus as the savior."-- 24.57.157.81 06:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The article is about the Christian religion, and as such, is very well written (and I was not a major contributor to this since I arrived on scene after most of it was already written). An encyclopedia article does not need to assume a priori the materialist world-view, nor does it have to provide mathematical proofs before stating what is otherwise considered fact. As some other editors have commented above, we do not require on other pages statements such as "Plato, assuming he existed, was a Greek philosopher," "Confucius, if there was such a man, was an Eastern philosopher," "Mohammad is considered God's Prophet by Muslims, assuming (1) there was a Mohammad, (2) Allah is God, (3) there is a God, and (4) prophets exist." The fact of the matter is, the historical existence of Jesus is well accepted, and that Christian dogma proclaims him to be the Christ (aka, Messiah). LotR 16:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
"Christians identify Jesus as the Messiah" assuming there is such a thing as "the Messiah"
"Many Christians consider the death of Jesus, followed by his resurrection, the most important event in history." assuming Jesus existed, died, and was ressurrected
You can't just write "according to the Gospels" or "Christians believe/consider/understand" here and there.
"Christians understand salvation as a gift by unmerited grace of God, who sent Jesus as the savior."
I think it should be made clear that Christians do not acknowledge other gods. It is one thing to acknowledge that non-Christians worship other gods but that does not mean that Christians acknowledge the actual existence of those other "false gods".
We acknowledge that there are Hindus and that they worship Siva and Vishnu but we do not acknowledge the existence of Siva and Vishnu.
We could go into a long discussion about the meaning of the commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" but, in a nutshell, this harks back to a period when Hebrews lived in a time of polytheism and monotheism was an emerging concept. Thus, early Judaism may have been henotheistic but Christianity is not.
-- Richard 17:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
It bears repeating: An encyclopedia article does not need to assume a priori the materialist world-view. Christians believe in God, not "god," which is factually inaccurate. The term "God" has a pretty specific meaning, which among other things, and unlike the term "god," refers to a monotheistic deity. LotR 18:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, this is an article talk page, not a religious discussion board so we shouldn't go too far in getting into philosophical debates. I understand and agree with Giovanni33 that no one can really "know" that Jesus Christ was resurrected and ascended into heaven.
I should comment though that religious epistemology is such that, within the framework of a religious system of beliefs, believers "know" certain things to be true. Much of Western philosophy is based on proving the existence of God and "knowing" certain truths about morality. Admittedly, philosophy has moved on since those days but religion is ultimately about "knowing" things about God and his relationship to mankind. You may not believe that Christians really "know" these things to be true but that's because you are an unbeliever. (No offense intended, I'm just describing the "lay of the land". If you don't believe, then the whole epistemological framework of the religion falls apart and you can't talk about "knowing" anything because you don't accept the framework.) -- Richard 22:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
And so, it should be stated somewhere in the article that Christians believe that they "know" things to be true because they are revealed in the Scriptures and, in some cases, through church tradition. -- Richard 23:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe I was sloppy in my phrasing about "scientific truth". I was trying to avoid writing out the long version.
I said at the beginning of this that we could get into a long discussion about epistemology and I was trying to hint that this wasn't the place for it. All I'm trying to say is that, to the extent that there is truth and knowledge in science, the truth and knowledge in religion is based on something different (revealed knowledge vs. empirical knowledge). I thnk it was Homestarmy who asked how Christians can know something and suggested that it was "mere belief" and therefore the word "think" was more appropriate than "know". Believers in any religion (not just Christians) believe that they "know" certain truths that are core tenets of their faith. Obviously, Wikipedia cannot accept these "truths" as unchallengeable. On the other hand, it is important to discuss the faith with an understanding of the nature of religious belief. To suggest that Christians think that maybe Jesus rose from the dead is to get it completely wrong. Christians know that Jesus rose from the dead. The appropriate phrasing therefore is that "Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead" or "According to Christian doctrine...", etc.
-- Richard 19:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I conflated Giovanni33's comments with Homestarmy, it's a limitation of WikiEditing that it is difficult to read over an entire long conversation and get every editor's comments right. I should have been more careful.
I'm not sure where this epistemological discussion is going but the core issue as I see it is that Christians have a belief system which is based on revealed knowledge as revealed to them by holy scripture and church tradition. This is a belief system which is different from science in that science claims to be able to build up its entire belief system from empirical observation. Like most other religions, Christianity doesn't limit itself to empirical observation. Christians know things because it is written in scripture and they know the scriptures are true because the Holy Spirit tells them they are. (Same argument holds with respect to church tradition for those who include church tradition as a basis for belief.)
-- Richard 20:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Im fine with things as long as its worded to make clear things that are beliefs are stated as beliefs, instead of being a fact of existence. It is a fact of belief only. Some things we can assume existed in reality for WP purposes, based on the consensus of historians, i.e. Jesus-- but other things that the academy clearly identifies as made up, mythological dogmas, such as the resurrection and God, can not be assumed to be real within WP's language (no offence intended for believers). In fairness, we should not necessarily assume it not real either for WP purposes, but simply avoid taking any such stance and describe it as a belief.
The problem with the below passage is that it is worded to assume that the resurrectoin was an event in history:
"Many Christians consider the death of Jesus, followed by his resurrection, the most important event in history." As I explained, the problem I have with this is "followed by his resurrection," and "the most important event in history." This implies it is a fact, instead of a belief. Notice how this cures this defect: "Among Christian beliefs, the death of Jesus and his resurection, are held as the most important events." These are simply events of the belief system, of the story. They do not say they are true, i.e. historical. And they clearly identify them as beliefs, albeit the most important beliefs. Opinion of Christians is the same things as the belief of Christians in this case, since their opinion is about their belief, talking about which one is the most important of their beliefs. I dont' see how adding, "Among Christian beliefs," makes it too "slow." Giovanni33 19:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
The same goes for:
"Christians understand salvation as a gift by unmerited grace of God, who sent Jesus as the savior."
The problem part is "who sent Jesus as the savior," and the word "understand" instead of "believe." "Who sent Jesus," is from the POV of treating God as an accepted fact instead of a beleif. To fix both of these problems I propose tying in "believe with "and" thusly: "Christians believe salvation is a gift bestowed by god and that he sent Jesus to be the savior." Giovanni33 19:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I think I owe Giovanni33 an apology. After reading the last few posts, I see that the whole "think", "believe", "know" discussion is an epistemological red herring and probably served more to confuse than to enlighten.
Let me try again...
The problem with the "death and resurrection" sentence can be resolved by something like "Christians consider the death and resurrection of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels to be the most important event in the history of mankind." I think the "as recorded in the Gospels" gives the reader a headsup that these events are not necessarily historical in nature but are possibly more along the lines of "sacred history". In a similar fashion, if we wrote "According to church tradition, the Virgin Mary did not die but was assumed body and soul into heaven.", then we use the phrase "according to church tradition" to signal to the reader that this event is not necessarily historical fact.
To avoid getting tedious, I would suggest that, as a general rule, it should be sufficient to say "Christians believe..." or "According to church tradition..." about once a paragraph. Any more than that is probably excessive.
The sentence "Christians understand salvation as a gift by unmerited grace of God, who sent Jesus as the savior." is not, in my opinion, a real problem since the "Christians understand..." should signal to the reader that what follows is a Christian perspective within their belief system. At some point, we have to assume that the reader is not an idiot and can understand that God may not exist and that Jesus may not have existed or that, if he did exist and did die on the cross, that he may not have been raised from the dead. It's just tedious to keep beating the reader over the head with these caveats. You cannot write to the lowest common denominator.
That said, you could fix the "salvation as a gift" sentence by rewording thus: "A core tenet of the Christian faith is the assertion that salvation is...".-- Richard 04:10, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/24/wjesus24.xml http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070225/jesus_tomb_070225/20070225?hub=TopStories http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/02/26/raising-the-titanic-sinking-christianity/ Im sure you all have read about this recently in the news, and the documentary which is playing this week, I think, on the Discovery Channel, called "The Jesus Family Tomb," by Cameron, and a new book that makes this case. To quote from MSN, "With the help of statisticians, archeologists, historians, DNA experts, robot-camera technicians, epigraphers and a CSI expert from New York's Long Island, Jacobovici puts together a case in which he argues that the bones of Jesus, Mary and Mary Magdalene, along with some of their lesser-known relatives, were once entombed in this cave. James Charlesworth of the Princeton Theological Seminary consulted with Jacobovici on the project and is intrigued: "A very good claim could be made that this was Jesus' clan." Does any of this merit mention anywhere in this article, maybe under controversies? Giovanni33 00:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
You should check the authentication process. Did they turn them over to the University of Jerusalem (or similar) to test as they saw fit, or did they admit only a few handpicked scholars to briefly examine it under supervision (or otherwise keep themselves in control of the process)? If it's the latter, it's a hoax. That's the pattern of the James Ossuary, Morton Smith, Mark Hoffman, etc. A.J.A. 21:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Simply another sad attempt to discredit Christianity. A cash in on the Da Vinci Code crock. More fiction and conspiracy theories that off little to no evidence to support their claims. I am surpised there are still some people that claim Jesus never existed when historical evidence points the other way. For further links check out: http://www.callingfortruth.org/cft/content/view/343/10/ http://www.aomin.org/ http://www.carm.org/evidence/Jesus_tomb.htm
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.65.112 ( talk • contribs)
reading this article. Before it talked about God's love, Jesus, or the forgiveness of sins it talked about divisions within Christianity. Steve Dufour 16:34, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
There is a cleanup tag for this section. Can someone enumerate exactly what is being sought? I'm sure the page's editors would love to start improving this section if we knew where to begin. Djma12 03:01, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a minor dispute concerning the size of Christianity currently. I found a couple of sources that may be helpful. Feel free to use them within the article if you see fit.
Source: 1997 Britannica Book of the Year. © 1997 Encyclopædia Britannica
Total World Religious Population: 5,804,120,000
Christians (total): 1,955,229,000 (33.7%)
Roman Catholics: 981,465,000 (16.9%)
Protestants : 404,020,000 (7.0%)
Orthodox: 218,350,000 (3.8%)
Anglicans: 69,136,000 (1.2%)
Other Christians; 282,258,000 (4.9%)
Source: International Bulletin of Missionary Research, January 2003. David B. Barrett & Todd M. Johnson.
Christians (total): 2,076,629,000 (33.1%)
Evangelicals: 221,637,000
Pentecostal/Charismatics: 553,763,000
Anglicans: 82,895,000
Orthodox: 218,501,000
Protestants: 356,138,000
Roman Catholics: 1,097,144,000
Best regards, Djma12 ( talk) 16:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd go with the second one, christianity is what they specialize in. Zazaban 17:45, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Why are groups that are non-Christian religions allowed to be included on this page? Just because they describe themselves that way does not make it true. Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are two groups that want to use this term to mislead people about what they believe. They are not Christian! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cis2002 ( talk • contribs) 17:07, 12 March 2007.
Then you prove that their scam is working because neither group worships Jesus Christ. Hence why they are not Christians. Mormons believe Jesus is the archangel Michael and they do not worship Michael. Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus is just a son (the same as the rest of us) of our god. Who was just a really good guy that was made a god by another god and so on and so forth.
If they worship "Jesus/Michael" as a god then they are doing so against their own doctrine. I would think that Wikipedia would want accuracy. Misclassifying a group does not provide accuracy. What if Neo-Nazi's or the Ku Klux Klan started classsifying themselves as part of United Negro College Fund. That would be blatantly misinformation and would be removed. So then why are we allowing these other groups to do the exact same thing?
While you may not agree with "heretics" and non-Trinitarians being called Christian, your disagreement is not enough to justify altering Wikipedia articles. JWs and Mormons self-identify as Christians and are recognized as part of Christianity by the academic community. This means for the purposes of Wikipedia, they are part of Christianity. We can add appropriate criticisms and counterclaims in appropriate articles, provided we properly use reliable sources. We can even hold our own personal opinions about the matter. However, Wikipedia is not based on our POVs, but rather NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vassyana ( talk • contribs)
Cis2002, if your one-sided (mis)-characterizations of Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons were true, then it would indeed be appropriate to exclude them from the Christian designation. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, just as Muhammad was; thus Muslims aren't Christians. Followers of Reverend Sun Myung Moon are likewise not Christians, for pretty much the same reason. However, neither Jehovah's Witnesses nor Mormons treat Jesus as co-equal (or inferior) to any human being. -- Cat Whisperer 18:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
First I don't know who wrote the reply about NPOV but it wasn't me. Second CW, you admit that Muslims are not Christians because they do not worship Jesus as God which is exactly what the Mormons and JW's are doing. They do not worship Jesus as God. I apologize about the misrepresentation of the Mormon belief about Jesus as Michael as that is the JW belief, thank you Homestarmy. But Mormons do not worship Jesus as God all the same. Finally, going back to NPOV, it is a fantasy. No one writes completely from NPOV but that aside NPOV does not change fact. Cis2002 18:17, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
So I should not say 2+2=4, oops I made an absolute. Saying that everything should be NPOV sets up a false belief that things are capable of being NPOV. Cis2002 18:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
For Cis2002;
Please note that the article carefully avoids actually affirming that they are Christians. Whether that's because they aren't, or just because there's a major POV to the effect that they aren't and Wikipedia doesn't say that POV is wrong, is left to the reader. Likewise, much of Christian theology was formulated in its current form to refute heresy, which makes heresy itself a part of explaining Christianity; whether non-Trinitarians are described for that reason, or because they are properly considered Christian, is intentionally left unresolved. A.J.A. 20:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I have heard two three major definitions of a Christian. 1) one who believes in the divinity and spiritual mission of Jesus as the Savior of the world, 2) one who follows the definition of who God is as defined in the various creeds of Christiandom (i..e the Trinity). Often I hear the "one church" meaning catholic (little c) which includes protestants as well as Catholics (big c). 3) anyone who follows the life and teachings of Jesus (regardless of a belief in his divine nature). For the purpose of Wikipedia, #3 is actually most appropriate. The inclusion of Mormons and JWs falls under #1, and #2 seems to be the POV of those who argue for the removal of such groups from Christian related articles. #2 is the most POV, #3 is the least POV, and it seems that we generally end up in the middle. If you started a category about Trinitarianism and excluded Mormons and JWs, they would probably have no problem with that, but booting them from Christianity is an insult to the very foundation of their faith. I was reading the comments on a user page:
Other than the use of the word "Trinity", all of these statements are believed and taught by Mormons in general and the LDS Church specifically, so to call them non-Christians or the church a non-Christian church, to me seems more a method to confuse the observer, rather than to enlighten. Certainly this author has not done his research. I have said it before, the only way to think in NPOV is to write from the view of a Hindu. Would a Hindu consider JWs Christian? Who is the observer? Who is this page written for? This isn't a prosyliting site, but it seems people want to hide various views of Christianity, which is clearly POV. Bytebear 01:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
No, Your religion is not christian. Nah Nah George 02:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Sophia, I am ready to talk about true Monotheism again. This is beginning to bore me. It was started by an editor who obviously does not have a clue about what JWs or Mormons believe, but without any understanding has come to a definitive conclusion as to their Christianity. Homestar at least attempts to gain understanding by speaking, which is admirable. But if we are going to start dissecting Christianity (and not talk about true monotheism) then I would feel very comfortable taking the position that all churches broken off from Rome are apostate and have no right to exist. In conclusion, let's get back to the topic of the article and how to improve it. -- Storm Rider (talk) 23:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
JWs are Christians, and so are Mormons. Even if they aren't, on WP we need to pretend they are because WP has no way to define "true Christian." That said, this article could use a good section on "true Christians," and about how Christians believe that lots of supposed Christians are actually false Christians. The really funny thing is how, by calling them non-Christian, you're playing into their end time scenario for you, which is that you turn on the true believers. And I know I'm generalizing terribly, so sorry. It's sort of like the Catholic sign of opposition. Jonathan Tweet 00:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
“Your word is truth.”—John 17:17 Jesus accepted the Bible as God’s Word, disciples of Christ would accept that the Bible is God’s inspired word. See 2 Tim. 3:15-17 Jesus said to his followers on the night before he died: By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” John 13:34 “Because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you.” And the disciple James stated that pure worship consisted of keeping oneself unspotted by the world and that “friendship with the world is enmity with God.”—John 15:19; Jas. 1:27; 4:4 The true Christian congregation was unpopular, no part of the world and was violently persecuted: “All those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted.” 2 Tim. 3:12 Christ Jesus preached the good news of God’s kingdom and he told his disciples to do the same MT 24:14; 28:19,20
These are the BIBLICAL requirements for being a Christian. I found no mention of the necessity of trinity doctrine. The ‘requirement’ of belief in the trinity is extrabiblical therefore I submit that it cannot be a requirement of Christianity. Anyone who requires it is adding to the Bible. That much is obvious.
Some consideration of secular dictionaries is warranted here as they should be the primary source for reference.
[1] "Jehovah's, Witnesses are members of a Christian religious group that uses the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society as its corporate body" [2] "Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian group originating in the United States at the end of the 19th cent" Jehovah's Witnesses –noun a Christian sect, founded in the U.S. in the late 19th century, that believes in the imminent destruction of the world's wickedness and the establishment of a theocracy under God's rule. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
A religious denomination that expects the millennium to begin within a very few years Jehovah's Witnesses insist on the use of Jehovah as a name for God. They deny the doctrine of the Trinity and consider Jesus to be the greatest of the witnesses of Jehovah. Crystal Reference Encyclopedia Jehovah’s Witnesses A millenarian movement organized in the USA in 1884 under Charles Taze Russell (1852–1916). (The definition of millenarian is a type of Christian)
[3] 1. a Christian sect that opposes war and governments, believes in the imminent end of the world, and actively seeks new converts.
[4] Jeho'vah's Wit'nesses
a Christian sect, founded in the U.S. in the late 19th century, that believes in the imminent destruction of the world's wickedness and the establishment of a theocracy under God's rule.
[5] Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian religious group, founded in 1872 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, by the American clergyman Charles Taze Russell, with congregations in nearly all countries.
About.com Jehovah's Witnesses are a Protestant Christian denomination which have played an important role in the United States in the development of religious liberty for minority groups. Now, in light of all this (from the JW point of view) how can you be inclined to exclude JW's from the definition of Christianity? I can say little or nothing about LDS or any other group. I know that JW's refer to most groups self identifying as Christian as 'nominal' Christians. Thus avoiding the argument that they are not Christian and the obvious insult this would entail. George 21:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC) OOPS,sorry
Mathew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost This is the only verse that names all three members of the trinity in the Bible. Do JWs follow it? It doesn't say that all three of these persons are God, but other passages do. Zantaggerung 19:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
"Scramblified"? Please tell me that this guy doesn't really talk like Stuffwell... -- Luigifan 02:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok Homestar, exactly what do you want the article to say that it does not currently say? Do you have a proposal yet? -- Storm Rider (talk) 18:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Homes, you are right in doubting the usefulness of terms like "secular sources". There is no such thing ... or all sources on secular history are secular sources. In any case, there is no such thing as neutrality as every author, no matter what persuasion, has a view point. However, in the end I must disagree with you - per NPOV we should present both view points - that subsuming JWs and other groups as Christian and those disputing it - without endorsing either. Readers will be aware of the controversy and make up their mind. Str1977 (smile back) 09:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
The current article does not identify which groups are viewed as heretical, but just states they exist; they fall outside what s recognized as mainstream Christianity. I do not think this article is the place for listing the complaints of one group versus another. The topic is Christianity not the problems within Christianity. These topics are best left to the respective group articles. All of these accusations, claims, and positions are covered in a multitude of articles. I agree with Str, if you think we need to cover the controversy in this article, make a proposal. However, if you open the door too wide you will then find yourself contending with a whole list of what church is viewed as less than acceptable by a number of other church groups. The world is not seen in black in white, but is in a vast array of shades of gray. I prefer the current treatment of the article, but let's see what you propose. -- Storm Rider (talk) 22:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Using only the Bible as a reference this definition #3 seems to be the best fit.
“3) anyone who follows the life and teachings of Jesus (regardless of a belief in his divine nature)”
The first occurrence in the Holy Scriptures of the word “Christian” is at Acts 12:26 when the students of Christ were named so by divine province. These people were being taught by Christ through his appointed teachers. The mission given by Jesus to his disciples was to go and make disciples of people of all nation, teaching them to do the things he commanded THEM to do (make disciples/teachers) Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus told the Christians to go and teach people to be Christians, they in turn would do the same. Jesus told his followers to obey his father’s commandments. Matt7:21
And for the record Jesus never spoke of himself as being a god or The God. He did point to his father as being The God of his followers at John 20:17. At John 1:1 it is stated that the word was god, theos (greek θεός) not The God, ho theos (greek ο θεός) it is more properly translated as “a god” or “divine”
Jesus also gave his father all the credit and glory for everything he ever said or did in his ministry John 14:10 Kljenni 00:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I am not here to argue at all but to share in the discussion using the Bible as my guide.
(2 Timothy 3:16)“. . .All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness. . .”
Ok let’s consider what Jesus said, “I and the father are one” He also said this at john 17:21 citation) Jesus spoke of his followers being one as he and his father are one. One what? He also spoke of being “in” each other, in what? citation) in unity
Jesus only did what his father God told him to do and said what he was given to say remaining obedient even to the point of death. citation)
John 1:1 does say in the original greek the word was god. It does not say he is THE GOD. There are many gods spoken of in the Bible but only one true God spoken of by Jesus. citation) So if Jesus himself always points to his father as being The One True God, why would I believe anyone who says otherwise? Kljenni 02:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
There is only one God, the other "god" are not actually gods from the perspective of the faith of the Bible. In any, case why use only the Bible. I know it's fashionable in recent years but unbiblical nonetheless. However, this whole discussion should be here. This is about this article and edits to it. Take your lectures elsewhere. Str1977 (smile back) 19:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
str1977 why is it you say using the bible is fashionable but unbiblical? this conversation does belong on this talk page, I was responding to another persons definition of a christian. that definition is closest to the definition given in the bible by Jesus to his followers, which is to obey his commands. I also pointed out that those commands of his were (in his own words) from his father. Kljenni 15:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
respectfully, please tell me, who are you? is every conversation here to be approved by you? Kljenni 23:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Respectfully, I am just a common editor telling you what talk pages are for and what not. Str1977 (smile back) 09:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
ok then.to finalize this I will again say, this topic grew out of a conversation above about whether to include what one anonymous editor considered to be non-christian groups on the christianity page. an editor called Bytebear gave 3 definitions of christian and noted that #3 definition was the most wikipedia appropriate. I agreed. I started a new line called definition of a christian #3 in which I gave biblical support for it. Bytebears definition did say "regardless of belief in his divine nature" and I gave biblical reference to that. The Bible is the only record of the establishment of the Christian Congregation and of the first Christians, those who were taught directly by Jesus. I believe it is appropriate to refer to it when speaking about the teachings of Jesus, his place in his fathers Kingdom arrangement and how to determine whether a group is following Christ or falling away. If they are not following Christ do they deserve to be spoken of as Christians? That was the question was it not? thank you and have a nice day Kljenni 00:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course, conversation grow out and one should not just cut them short but this has got a bit out of hand. However, I disagree about your Bibliocentrism and would ask what "following Christ" is supposed to mean. Is saying "Lord Lord" enough? Does what Jesus actually said and did matter or can one manipulate it in any possible way? Str1977 (smile back) 08:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
and you know that saying "lord Lord" is not what makes a Christian so you are familiar with christs warning to his followers not to leave off from following his example, yet still call him lord. [9] bye Kljenni 00:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Any suggestions on improving the article appearance? As it stands, there are awkward spaces and the drop-down TOC doesn't seem to work too well. Djma12 ( talk) 01:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Could Satanism be considered a Christian sect? It draws all of its ideas about the nature of God and Satan from the Bible. - R160K 23:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe satanism would fit into the catagory of antichristian along with any other religions that teach or promote opposition to Jehovahs rulership. Kljenni 01:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to point out that Satanism as an actual counter-Christian religion is an extreme minority of "Satanists". "Satan" is not an actual entity, but rather an allegory for many Satanists. Most of the rest view Satan as a natural force of change, the anti-status quo, rather than a demon/devil/fallen angel. Modern Satanism has more in common with deism, humanism and "social darwinism" than the classic Black Mass devil-worshipping, church-blaspheming stereotype. Just some thoughts. Vassyana 21:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Someone might want to correct the article where it says when Christ returns will be the "establishment of the Kingdom of God." Nothing in the Bible teaches that the kingdom will be established when Christ returns. All the verses which speak of the kingdom, present it as a current kingdom. I Cor 15:24 refers to Christ coming back as the end and He "delivers the kingdom to God the Father" as a completed kingdom. Christ constantly in the gospels refers to establishing His kingdom during His first advent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kstevenham ( talk • contribs) 06:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC).
Interested editors may wish to vote at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 March 22. Badagnani 06:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Homestarmy - 2
George - 0
The Jackal God 18:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually if you go by the number of references presented it is 7 to 3 (george). If you add the references Bytebear used below it goes even higher for george. Yay George! Wooo! Wooo! Wooo! *moonwalks* George 21:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it needs to be a separate linked article(s), but the complete omission of negative impact of christian missionaries on the global south is odd. For this to be a truly objective account of christinaity it has to acknowledge the death and distraction done in it name. Also, the appears to be no mention of other critiques such as liberation theology. ( Ayokunle 18:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC))
The first Paragraph of the Article makes no mention of the Christian Anti-Messianic Church. Our Congregation is an Exception to its Statement that Christians believe that our Lord the Anti-Messiah Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah as Foretold by the Prophet Elijah. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Esa29 ( talk • contribs) date.
Esa, you're on the wrong page, lol. Here's what you were looking for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cults
and maybe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new_religious_movements
enjoy!
The Jackal God
17:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/16786777.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by George m ( talk • contribs) 18:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC).
There are over 5000 Christian denominations listed on the World Christian Database, and none of them use the term Anti-Messiah. -- Cat Whisperer 20:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
"Christianity is a monotheistic[1] religion" hmm. . . What is called Christianity by the world in general is no longer a religion. It is a collective term for any religion that basically " believes in Jesus". Many people would included Mormonism, Roman Catholascism, the Word Faith movement and reformed Baptist teaching all under the label of Christianity, but these are undoubtably different religions.
I am looking for input on this before I change the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zantaggerung ( talk • contribs)
There is absolutely no need to change the current, completely accurate intro. Christianity is a religion. Disputes only arise as far as the classification of any group as belonging to this religion is accurate or not. PS. There is one groups believing in multiple gods and claiming to be Christian, but this group also claims to be monotheistic as well. WP cannot decide the dispute but merely report it. Str1977 (smile back) 07:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The change you propose would require supplying a new classification, which would necessarily violate WP:NOR. A.J.A. 14:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
No, Christianity is not one religion anymore (Christianity as most people think of it). Roman Catholics are considered Christians. There are also several "Christian" groups who also say they follow the teachings of the Bible but teach and practice things that are so totally different from Roman Catholic teaching that they can be said to be practically oposite religions. Both are generally labeled as "Christian". Hence rises the statment that Cristianity ( as the world generally labels it) is not a single religion.
Richard, I think that your sample statement is a good try, but not sufficient, sorry. Please try again, it appears that you are better at that sort of thing than me.
Remember it must be taken into account that:
1. Although most "Christian" religions believe in one God composed of three persons, some believe in three manifestations of the same God,and some believe there are many Gods( whether or not they only worship one God)
2. Although most "Cristian" religions believe Jesus was God and yet became man, some believe that he just appeared to be a man, and some believe that he simply inhabited the body of a man chosen for the task.
3. Some "Christian" religions believe humans are basically good and only sin under the influence of Satan or other evil forces, some believe humans are basically evil and only do good because of the influence of God in their lives.
4. Some "Christian" religions believe we choose God, some believe God chooses us.
5. Although most "Christian" religions believe that we can only be saved from judgement by Jesus's death on a cross and rising from the dead, some believe that the good things we do can save us from judgement, and some believe we don't need to be saved judgement.
There are many, many, many more examples such as these, but these are all I'm going to post.
Zantaggerung 18:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I still think we need to discuss what is "a religion".
Now, ask yourself... does this article communicate these issues accurately and succintly to the reader? (no, I don't think so)
I admit that it's difficult to resolve this issue. Roman Catholicism is a religion, Eastern Orthodoxy is a religion, Christianity is "a" religion, too? So, do we have three religions or one? (oops, sounds like the mystery of the Trinity, doesn't it?)
Seriously, if Christianity is a religion, then what is Roman Catholicism? Something less than a religion? Or is it the case that Roman Catholicism is a religion and Christianity is something more than a religion?
-- Richard 21:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I really do get tired of this pitiful, constant attempt to define Christianity in such a way as to exclude those who follow Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. None of the definitions proffered by those who are so eager to exclude those they view as lacking are built upon Biblical definitions. In fact, Jesus Christ would not recognize any of them as definitions of His followers. He had very few requirements. I would encourage each of you to go back to the Bible, you remember that book that you wave about proclaiming that it is true, and come up with a definitions that is proferred by the Savior of mankind. In doing so, you will readily be forced to let go of your narrow definitions that man has created to make them feel good about their choice of relgion.
If you are asking if I am just a bit caustic you would be exact. I am because I am fed up with those novices that have just heard their preacher give warnings on the evils of cults and now, with no futher training or research, they are ready to proclaim their preachers words to world as if it was true. What is probably more dismaying is how some of our regular editors get yanked about by these claims; it is too easy to stir up contention. My recommendation to those who wish to bring up this over and over and over again is to read the dang archives, every one of them, at the end you will find your answer. You will come to know how hard the current form of the article has been negotiated. I would dare to say that none of the newbies bring any more wisdom, knowledge, or expertise than has already existed here. Cool your jets and read before you edit. Move on. -- Storm Rider (talk) 01:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This particular debate was originally on whether Christianity is "a religion" or "a group of religions". Let's stick to that issue. Given that we don't all agree on belief or theology, I would say it is not one religion, but a very broad group of various religions. It can even be non-religion for those who feel they don't need any belief system or "church" to follow Jesus Christ. This article isn't big enough to cover all aspects of all beliefs, so we have to go with the big issues, and branch off to various sub-articles when warranted. Bytebear 01:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Because "Christianity," by definition, constitutes a religious system of beliefs about the person of Christ (which are well-defined in the present article), it is therefore, again by definition, considered a religion. It has been considered thus for centuries. This is not to say that there are not divisions among Christians arising from small perturbations to the core beliefs, but that does not mean that each constitutes a whole new belief system. One cannot say "I believe the earth to be a sphere," while being a card-carrying member of the flat earth society -- it is a logical contradiction. Any attempt to present Christianity as multiple distinct religions is to confound, rather than clarify, the topic, which is counter-encyclopedic, to say the least. LotR 13:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow. I did't think little old me could stir up such a huge argument. Amazing. Zantaggerung 19:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok everybody, lets take The Roman Catholic Church and the Word Faith Movement. In some ways these to belief systems are completely opposite! Yet they are both called Christian by the world in general. So therefore Christianity ( as thought of by the world today) must be more than one religion. Zantaggerung 19:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Non sequiter? Come on, if they have several opposite beliefs, then it follows that they aren't the same religion. Zantaggerung 17:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 35 | ← | Archive 39 | Archive 40 | Archive 41 | Archive 42 | Archive 43 | → | Archive 45 |
I politely request that people tone down the rhetoric and, if necessary, take a breather. We're all trying to do our best to improve Wikipedia, and sometimes things do get heated and there are POV conflicts, but that's no excuse for incivility. This is not directed at any single editor, but rather a general appeal. If we're just arguing and flinging out accusations, we're not focusing on productive consensus building and constructive criticism, which is what should be our focus on the talk page. Vassyana 01:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
A few days ago, I made a snide remark in response to Str1977's comment that "there was no consensus" to remove the text of the Nicene Creed from this article. My response was made on a good faith assessment from the discussion at the time that the consensus seemed to be running 7-8 for removal and or 1 or 2 against. The results of the straw poll seem to indicate that the sentiment is running approximately 2-1 for removal of the text. Thus, it seems that Str1977's comment that "there was no consensus to remove the text" is at least partly correct in that the sentiment to remove the text is far from unanimous. And thus it was inappropriate for me to cast aspersions on his motivation for making it.
That said, it should also be apparent that "there is no consensus for keeping the text". What we have here is "a failure to reach consensus". And, in the meantime, the article remains protected. What we need now is to find a way to reach consensus.
It is my feeling that it is not really critical to have the text of the Nicene creed in the article. An easy solution would be for those who favor including it to explain why it is critical i.e. why the article would be incomplete and unencyclopedic without it.
Now, don't get me wrong, I love the Nicene creed and have it so memorized that I often accidentally insert bits of it when we recite the Apostle's creed. But, why is it important for it to be in the article? If it doesn't represent all of Christian belief then why fight so hard to have it included here?
-- Richard 18:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Reading the comments here, I have a few questions:
Comment. It seems as though the general consensus is moving towards the removal of the Nicene Creed. However, to prevent edit conflicts and ending back at a similar point, we do need to address the above questions, in my opinion. (It's just my opinion, feel free to disagree.) It makes no sense to rush to unprotection agreeing and tolerating the removal of the full quote, only to end up in conflict over what to then do with the section. Please answer under the appropriate section just to keep the differant questions seperated for clarity. Vassyana 08:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Are we ready to move on to discussions as to how the Creed should be represented in the text instead of a full quote? Vassyana makes good points but I just want to be clear if we have a tentative concensus to move forward. If we do then discussion from this point should revolve aroud NPOV and stylistic concerns. Please squeak loudly if you feel events are moving too fast. Sophia 08:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I was invited to make the edit I had recommended a while ago, and just did so. I'd like to encourage those editors here who have been doing so much thinking about this issue to take a look at our Nicene Creed article. There are some very uncontroversial improvements that could be made there. For example, we currently have "...originally written in Greek, the language of the eastern Mediterranean..." in the article... Jkelly 19:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello. Thank you for your efforts. In reference to the statement that: Christians identify Jesus as the Messiah. This title comes from the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (māšiáħ) meaning "the anointed one" - the translation of the Hebrew word is incorrect. The literal and correct translation of the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (pronounced mo-shi-ach) is "Messenger". Definitely and absolutely does not translate as "The Annointed One".
Thank you again for your efforts. Charlesr44 09:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Come on, folks. Use this Wikipedia thing. The Greek word Christos from which we get Christianity means "anointed" and is a translation of Moshiach. Other English words from that Greek word include "chrism" and "christen". See messiah and Christ.
The word for "messenger" in Hebrew is mal'ach, which is translated into Greek as aggelos (pronounced angelos) and from which we get " angel". -- FOo 02:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
A lot, and I mean a lot of this article is written from a Christian POV.
You can't just write "according to the Gospels" our "Christians believe/consider/understand" here and there.
Understand salvation as? Very weak. I appreciate the attempt at controlling the bias but that's not good enough for an encyclopedia. Why not just write "Christians believe salvation is a gift by unmerited grace of God, who sent Jesus as the savior." Notice how "our salvation" all of the sudden becomes assumed? And consider the phrase "a gift by unmerited grace of God." Who would understand what that means if they are not Christian? No one uses the word "grace" very much anymore. You could rewrite it as "a gift from God which they believe to be unmerited." There is no need to repeat "who sent Jesus as the savior."-- 24.57.157.81 06:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The article is about the Christian religion, and as such, is very well written (and I was not a major contributor to this since I arrived on scene after most of it was already written). An encyclopedia article does not need to assume a priori the materialist world-view, nor does it have to provide mathematical proofs before stating what is otherwise considered fact. As some other editors have commented above, we do not require on other pages statements such as "Plato, assuming he existed, was a Greek philosopher," "Confucius, if there was such a man, was an Eastern philosopher," "Mohammad is considered God's Prophet by Muslims, assuming (1) there was a Mohammad, (2) Allah is God, (3) there is a God, and (4) prophets exist." The fact of the matter is, the historical existence of Jesus is well accepted, and that Christian dogma proclaims him to be the Christ (aka, Messiah). LotR 16:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
"Christians identify Jesus as the Messiah" assuming there is such a thing as "the Messiah"
"Many Christians consider the death of Jesus, followed by his resurrection, the most important event in history." assuming Jesus existed, died, and was ressurrected
You can't just write "according to the Gospels" or "Christians believe/consider/understand" here and there.
"Christians understand salvation as a gift by unmerited grace of God, who sent Jesus as the savior."
I think it should be made clear that Christians do not acknowledge other gods. It is one thing to acknowledge that non-Christians worship other gods but that does not mean that Christians acknowledge the actual existence of those other "false gods".
We acknowledge that there are Hindus and that they worship Siva and Vishnu but we do not acknowledge the existence of Siva and Vishnu.
We could go into a long discussion about the meaning of the commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" but, in a nutshell, this harks back to a period when Hebrews lived in a time of polytheism and monotheism was an emerging concept. Thus, early Judaism may have been henotheistic but Christianity is not.
-- Richard 17:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
It bears repeating: An encyclopedia article does not need to assume a priori the materialist world-view. Christians believe in God, not "god," which is factually inaccurate. The term "God" has a pretty specific meaning, which among other things, and unlike the term "god," refers to a monotheistic deity. LotR 18:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, this is an article talk page, not a religious discussion board so we shouldn't go too far in getting into philosophical debates. I understand and agree with Giovanni33 that no one can really "know" that Jesus Christ was resurrected and ascended into heaven.
I should comment though that religious epistemology is such that, within the framework of a religious system of beliefs, believers "know" certain things to be true. Much of Western philosophy is based on proving the existence of God and "knowing" certain truths about morality. Admittedly, philosophy has moved on since those days but religion is ultimately about "knowing" things about God and his relationship to mankind. You may not believe that Christians really "know" these things to be true but that's because you are an unbeliever. (No offense intended, I'm just describing the "lay of the land". If you don't believe, then the whole epistemological framework of the religion falls apart and you can't talk about "knowing" anything because you don't accept the framework.) -- Richard 22:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
And so, it should be stated somewhere in the article that Christians believe that they "know" things to be true because they are revealed in the Scriptures and, in some cases, through church tradition. -- Richard 23:03, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe I was sloppy in my phrasing about "scientific truth". I was trying to avoid writing out the long version.
I said at the beginning of this that we could get into a long discussion about epistemology and I was trying to hint that this wasn't the place for it. All I'm trying to say is that, to the extent that there is truth and knowledge in science, the truth and knowledge in religion is based on something different (revealed knowledge vs. empirical knowledge). I thnk it was Homestarmy who asked how Christians can know something and suggested that it was "mere belief" and therefore the word "think" was more appropriate than "know". Believers in any religion (not just Christians) believe that they "know" certain truths that are core tenets of their faith. Obviously, Wikipedia cannot accept these "truths" as unchallengeable. On the other hand, it is important to discuss the faith with an understanding of the nature of religious belief. To suggest that Christians think that maybe Jesus rose from the dead is to get it completely wrong. Christians know that Jesus rose from the dead. The appropriate phrasing therefore is that "Christians believe that Jesus rose from the dead" or "According to Christian doctrine...", etc.
-- Richard 19:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Sorry if I conflated Giovanni33's comments with Homestarmy, it's a limitation of WikiEditing that it is difficult to read over an entire long conversation and get every editor's comments right. I should have been more careful.
I'm not sure where this epistemological discussion is going but the core issue as I see it is that Christians have a belief system which is based on revealed knowledge as revealed to them by holy scripture and church tradition. This is a belief system which is different from science in that science claims to be able to build up its entire belief system from empirical observation. Like most other religions, Christianity doesn't limit itself to empirical observation. Christians know things because it is written in scripture and they know the scriptures are true because the Holy Spirit tells them they are. (Same argument holds with respect to church tradition for those who include church tradition as a basis for belief.)
-- Richard 20:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Im fine with things as long as its worded to make clear things that are beliefs are stated as beliefs, instead of being a fact of existence. It is a fact of belief only. Some things we can assume existed in reality for WP purposes, based on the consensus of historians, i.e. Jesus-- but other things that the academy clearly identifies as made up, mythological dogmas, such as the resurrection and God, can not be assumed to be real within WP's language (no offence intended for believers). In fairness, we should not necessarily assume it not real either for WP purposes, but simply avoid taking any such stance and describe it as a belief.
The problem with the below passage is that it is worded to assume that the resurrectoin was an event in history:
"Many Christians consider the death of Jesus, followed by his resurrection, the most important event in history." As I explained, the problem I have with this is "followed by his resurrection," and "the most important event in history." This implies it is a fact, instead of a belief. Notice how this cures this defect: "Among Christian beliefs, the death of Jesus and his resurection, are held as the most important events." These are simply events of the belief system, of the story. They do not say they are true, i.e. historical. And they clearly identify them as beliefs, albeit the most important beliefs. Opinion of Christians is the same things as the belief of Christians in this case, since their opinion is about their belief, talking about which one is the most important of their beliefs. I dont' see how adding, "Among Christian beliefs," makes it too "slow." Giovanni33 19:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
The same goes for:
"Christians understand salvation as a gift by unmerited grace of God, who sent Jesus as the savior."
The problem part is "who sent Jesus as the savior," and the word "understand" instead of "believe." "Who sent Jesus," is from the POV of treating God as an accepted fact instead of a beleif. To fix both of these problems I propose tying in "believe with "and" thusly: "Christians believe salvation is a gift bestowed by god and that he sent Jesus to be the savior." Giovanni33 19:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I think I owe Giovanni33 an apology. After reading the last few posts, I see that the whole "think", "believe", "know" discussion is an epistemological red herring and probably served more to confuse than to enlighten.
Let me try again...
The problem with the "death and resurrection" sentence can be resolved by something like "Christians consider the death and resurrection of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels to be the most important event in the history of mankind." I think the "as recorded in the Gospels" gives the reader a headsup that these events are not necessarily historical in nature but are possibly more along the lines of "sacred history". In a similar fashion, if we wrote "According to church tradition, the Virgin Mary did not die but was assumed body and soul into heaven.", then we use the phrase "according to church tradition" to signal to the reader that this event is not necessarily historical fact.
To avoid getting tedious, I would suggest that, as a general rule, it should be sufficient to say "Christians believe..." or "According to church tradition..." about once a paragraph. Any more than that is probably excessive.
The sentence "Christians understand salvation as a gift by unmerited grace of God, who sent Jesus as the savior." is not, in my opinion, a real problem since the "Christians understand..." should signal to the reader that what follows is a Christian perspective within their belief system. At some point, we have to assume that the reader is not an idiot and can understand that God may not exist and that Jesus may not have existed or that, if he did exist and did die on the cross, that he may not have been raised from the dead. It's just tedious to keep beating the reader over the head with these caveats. You cannot write to the lowest common denominator.
That said, you could fix the "salvation as a gift" sentence by rewording thus: "A core tenet of the Christian faith is the assertion that salvation is...".-- Richard 04:10, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/24/wjesus24.xml http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070225/jesus_tomb_070225/20070225?hub=TopStories http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/02/26/raising-the-titanic-sinking-christianity/ Im sure you all have read about this recently in the news, and the documentary which is playing this week, I think, on the Discovery Channel, called "The Jesus Family Tomb," by Cameron, and a new book that makes this case. To quote from MSN, "With the help of statisticians, archeologists, historians, DNA experts, robot-camera technicians, epigraphers and a CSI expert from New York's Long Island, Jacobovici puts together a case in which he argues that the bones of Jesus, Mary and Mary Magdalene, along with some of their lesser-known relatives, were once entombed in this cave. James Charlesworth of the Princeton Theological Seminary consulted with Jacobovici on the project and is intrigued: "A very good claim could be made that this was Jesus' clan." Does any of this merit mention anywhere in this article, maybe under controversies? Giovanni33 00:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
You should check the authentication process. Did they turn them over to the University of Jerusalem (or similar) to test as they saw fit, or did they admit only a few handpicked scholars to briefly examine it under supervision (or otherwise keep themselves in control of the process)? If it's the latter, it's a hoax. That's the pattern of the James Ossuary, Morton Smith, Mark Hoffman, etc. A.J.A. 21:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Simply another sad attempt to discredit Christianity. A cash in on the Da Vinci Code crock. More fiction and conspiracy theories that off little to no evidence to support their claims. I am surpised there are still some people that claim Jesus never existed when historical evidence points the other way. For further links check out: http://www.callingfortruth.org/cft/content/view/343/10/ http://www.aomin.org/ http://www.carm.org/evidence/Jesus_tomb.htm
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.158.65.112 ( talk • contribs)
reading this article. Before it talked about God's love, Jesus, or the forgiveness of sins it talked about divisions within Christianity. Steve Dufour 16:34, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
There is a cleanup tag for this section. Can someone enumerate exactly what is being sought? I'm sure the page's editors would love to start improving this section if we knew where to begin. Djma12 03:01, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be a minor dispute concerning the size of Christianity currently. I found a couple of sources that may be helpful. Feel free to use them within the article if you see fit.
Source: 1997 Britannica Book of the Year. © 1997 Encyclopædia Britannica
Total World Religious Population: 5,804,120,000
Christians (total): 1,955,229,000 (33.7%)
Roman Catholics: 981,465,000 (16.9%)
Protestants : 404,020,000 (7.0%)
Orthodox: 218,350,000 (3.8%)
Anglicans: 69,136,000 (1.2%)
Other Christians; 282,258,000 (4.9%)
Source: International Bulletin of Missionary Research, January 2003. David B. Barrett & Todd M. Johnson.
Christians (total): 2,076,629,000 (33.1%)
Evangelicals: 221,637,000
Pentecostal/Charismatics: 553,763,000
Anglicans: 82,895,000
Orthodox: 218,501,000
Protestants: 356,138,000
Roman Catholics: 1,097,144,000
Best regards, Djma12 ( talk) 16:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd go with the second one, christianity is what they specialize in. Zazaban 17:45, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Why are groups that are non-Christian religions allowed to be included on this page? Just because they describe themselves that way does not make it true. Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are two groups that want to use this term to mislead people about what they believe. They are not Christian! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cis2002 ( talk • contribs) 17:07, 12 March 2007.
Then you prove that their scam is working because neither group worships Jesus Christ. Hence why they are not Christians. Mormons believe Jesus is the archangel Michael and they do not worship Michael. Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus is just a son (the same as the rest of us) of our god. Who was just a really good guy that was made a god by another god and so on and so forth.
If they worship "Jesus/Michael" as a god then they are doing so against their own doctrine. I would think that Wikipedia would want accuracy. Misclassifying a group does not provide accuracy. What if Neo-Nazi's or the Ku Klux Klan started classsifying themselves as part of United Negro College Fund. That would be blatantly misinformation and would be removed. So then why are we allowing these other groups to do the exact same thing?
While you may not agree with "heretics" and non-Trinitarians being called Christian, your disagreement is not enough to justify altering Wikipedia articles. JWs and Mormons self-identify as Christians and are recognized as part of Christianity by the academic community. This means for the purposes of Wikipedia, they are part of Christianity. We can add appropriate criticisms and counterclaims in appropriate articles, provided we properly use reliable sources. We can even hold our own personal opinions about the matter. However, Wikipedia is not based on our POVs, but rather NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vassyana ( talk • contribs)
Cis2002, if your one-sided (mis)-characterizations of Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons were true, then it would indeed be appropriate to exclude them from the Christian designation. Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, just as Muhammad was; thus Muslims aren't Christians. Followers of Reverend Sun Myung Moon are likewise not Christians, for pretty much the same reason. However, neither Jehovah's Witnesses nor Mormons treat Jesus as co-equal (or inferior) to any human being. -- Cat Whisperer 18:06, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
First I don't know who wrote the reply about NPOV but it wasn't me. Second CW, you admit that Muslims are not Christians because they do not worship Jesus as God which is exactly what the Mormons and JW's are doing. They do not worship Jesus as God. I apologize about the misrepresentation of the Mormon belief about Jesus as Michael as that is the JW belief, thank you Homestarmy. But Mormons do not worship Jesus as God all the same. Finally, going back to NPOV, it is a fantasy. No one writes completely from NPOV but that aside NPOV does not change fact. Cis2002 18:17, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
So I should not say 2+2=4, oops I made an absolute. Saying that everything should be NPOV sets up a false belief that things are capable of being NPOV. Cis2002 18:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
For Cis2002;
Please note that the article carefully avoids actually affirming that they are Christians. Whether that's because they aren't, or just because there's a major POV to the effect that they aren't and Wikipedia doesn't say that POV is wrong, is left to the reader. Likewise, much of Christian theology was formulated in its current form to refute heresy, which makes heresy itself a part of explaining Christianity; whether non-Trinitarians are described for that reason, or because they are properly considered Christian, is intentionally left unresolved. A.J.A. 20:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I have heard two three major definitions of a Christian. 1) one who believes in the divinity and spiritual mission of Jesus as the Savior of the world, 2) one who follows the definition of who God is as defined in the various creeds of Christiandom (i..e the Trinity). Often I hear the "one church" meaning catholic (little c) which includes protestants as well as Catholics (big c). 3) anyone who follows the life and teachings of Jesus (regardless of a belief in his divine nature). For the purpose of Wikipedia, #3 is actually most appropriate. The inclusion of Mormons and JWs falls under #1, and #2 seems to be the POV of those who argue for the removal of such groups from Christian related articles. #2 is the most POV, #3 is the least POV, and it seems that we generally end up in the middle. If you started a category about Trinitarianism and excluded Mormons and JWs, they would probably have no problem with that, but booting them from Christianity is an insult to the very foundation of their faith. I was reading the comments on a user page:
Other than the use of the word "Trinity", all of these statements are believed and taught by Mormons in general and the LDS Church specifically, so to call them non-Christians or the church a non-Christian church, to me seems more a method to confuse the observer, rather than to enlighten. Certainly this author has not done his research. I have said it before, the only way to think in NPOV is to write from the view of a Hindu. Would a Hindu consider JWs Christian? Who is the observer? Who is this page written for? This isn't a prosyliting site, but it seems people want to hide various views of Christianity, which is clearly POV. Bytebear 01:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
No, Your religion is not christian. Nah Nah George 02:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Sophia, I am ready to talk about true Monotheism again. This is beginning to bore me. It was started by an editor who obviously does not have a clue about what JWs or Mormons believe, but without any understanding has come to a definitive conclusion as to their Christianity. Homestar at least attempts to gain understanding by speaking, which is admirable. But if we are going to start dissecting Christianity (and not talk about true monotheism) then I would feel very comfortable taking the position that all churches broken off from Rome are apostate and have no right to exist. In conclusion, let's get back to the topic of the article and how to improve it. -- Storm Rider (talk) 23:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
JWs are Christians, and so are Mormons. Even if they aren't, on WP we need to pretend they are because WP has no way to define "true Christian." That said, this article could use a good section on "true Christians," and about how Christians believe that lots of supposed Christians are actually false Christians. The really funny thing is how, by calling them non-Christian, you're playing into their end time scenario for you, which is that you turn on the true believers. And I know I'm generalizing terribly, so sorry. It's sort of like the Catholic sign of opposition. Jonathan Tweet 00:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
“Your word is truth.”—John 17:17 Jesus accepted the Bible as God’s Word, disciples of Christ would accept that the Bible is God’s inspired word. See 2 Tim. 3:15-17 Jesus said to his followers on the night before he died: By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” John 13:34 “Because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, on this account the world hates you.” And the disciple James stated that pure worship consisted of keeping oneself unspotted by the world and that “friendship with the world is enmity with God.”—John 15:19; Jas. 1:27; 4:4 The true Christian congregation was unpopular, no part of the world and was violently persecuted: “All those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted.” 2 Tim. 3:12 Christ Jesus preached the good news of God’s kingdom and he told his disciples to do the same MT 24:14; 28:19,20
These are the BIBLICAL requirements for being a Christian. I found no mention of the necessity of trinity doctrine. The ‘requirement’ of belief in the trinity is extrabiblical therefore I submit that it cannot be a requirement of Christianity. Anyone who requires it is adding to the Bible. That much is obvious.
Some consideration of secular dictionaries is warranted here as they should be the primary source for reference.
[1] "Jehovah's, Witnesses are members of a Christian religious group that uses the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society as its corporate body" [2] "Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian group originating in the United States at the end of the 19th cent" Jehovah's Witnesses –noun a Christian sect, founded in the U.S. in the late 19th century, that believes in the imminent destruction of the world's wickedness and the establishment of a theocracy under God's rule. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
A religious denomination that expects the millennium to begin within a very few years Jehovah's Witnesses insist on the use of Jehovah as a name for God. They deny the doctrine of the Trinity and consider Jesus to be the greatest of the witnesses of Jehovah. Crystal Reference Encyclopedia Jehovah’s Witnesses A millenarian movement organized in the USA in 1884 under Charles Taze Russell (1852–1916). (The definition of millenarian is a type of Christian)
[3] 1. a Christian sect that opposes war and governments, believes in the imminent end of the world, and actively seeks new converts.
[4] Jeho'vah's Wit'nesses
a Christian sect, founded in the U.S. in the late 19th century, that believes in the imminent destruction of the world's wickedness and the establishment of a theocracy under God's rule.
[5] Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian religious group, founded in 1872 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, by the American clergyman Charles Taze Russell, with congregations in nearly all countries.
About.com Jehovah's Witnesses are a Protestant Christian denomination which have played an important role in the United States in the development of religious liberty for minority groups. Now, in light of all this (from the JW point of view) how can you be inclined to exclude JW's from the definition of Christianity? I can say little or nothing about LDS or any other group. I know that JW's refer to most groups self identifying as Christian as 'nominal' Christians. Thus avoiding the argument that they are not Christian and the obvious insult this would entail. George 21:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC) OOPS,sorry
Mathew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost This is the only verse that names all three members of the trinity in the Bible. Do JWs follow it? It doesn't say that all three of these persons are God, but other passages do. Zantaggerung 19:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
"Scramblified"? Please tell me that this guy doesn't really talk like Stuffwell... -- Luigifan 02:27, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok Homestar, exactly what do you want the article to say that it does not currently say? Do you have a proposal yet? -- Storm Rider (talk) 18:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Homes, you are right in doubting the usefulness of terms like "secular sources". There is no such thing ... or all sources on secular history are secular sources. In any case, there is no such thing as neutrality as every author, no matter what persuasion, has a view point. However, in the end I must disagree with you - per NPOV we should present both view points - that subsuming JWs and other groups as Christian and those disputing it - without endorsing either. Readers will be aware of the controversy and make up their mind. Str1977 (smile back) 09:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
The current article does not identify which groups are viewed as heretical, but just states they exist; they fall outside what s recognized as mainstream Christianity. I do not think this article is the place for listing the complaints of one group versus another. The topic is Christianity not the problems within Christianity. These topics are best left to the respective group articles. All of these accusations, claims, and positions are covered in a multitude of articles. I agree with Str, if you think we need to cover the controversy in this article, make a proposal. However, if you open the door too wide you will then find yourself contending with a whole list of what church is viewed as less than acceptable by a number of other church groups. The world is not seen in black in white, but is in a vast array of shades of gray. I prefer the current treatment of the article, but let's see what you propose. -- Storm Rider (talk) 22:40, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Using only the Bible as a reference this definition #3 seems to be the best fit.
“3) anyone who follows the life and teachings of Jesus (regardless of a belief in his divine nature)”
The first occurrence in the Holy Scriptures of the word “Christian” is at Acts 12:26 when the students of Christ were named so by divine province. These people were being taught by Christ through his appointed teachers. The mission given by Jesus to his disciples was to go and make disciples of people of all nation, teaching them to do the things he commanded THEM to do (make disciples/teachers) Matthew 28:19-20 Jesus told the Christians to go and teach people to be Christians, they in turn would do the same. Jesus told his followers to obey his father’s commandments. Matt7:21
And for the record Jesus never spoke of himself as being a god or The God. He did point to his father as being The God of his followers at John 20:17. At John 1:1 it is stated that the word was god, theos (greek θεός) not The God, ho theos (greek ο θεός) it is more properly translated as “a god” or “divine”
Jesus also gave his father all the credit and glory for everything he ever said or did in his ministry John 14:10 Kljenni 00:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I am not here to argue at all but to share in the discussion using the Bible as my guide.
(2 Timothy 3:16)“. . .All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness. . .”
Ok let’s consider what Jesus said, “I and the father are one” He also said this at john 17:21 citation) Jesus spoke of his followers being one as he and his father are one. One what? He also spoke of being “in” each other, in what? citation) in unity
Jesus only did what his father God told him to do and said what he was given to say remaining obedient even to the point of death. citation)
John 1:1 does say in the original greek the word was god. It does not say he is THE GOD. There are many gods spoken of in the Bible but only one true God spoken of by Jesus. citation) So if Jesus himself always points to his father as being The One True God, why would I believe anyone who says otherwise? Kljenni 02:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
There is only one God, the other "god" are not actually gods from the perspective of the faith of the Bible. In any, case why use only the Bible. I know it's fashionable in recent years but unbiblical nonetheless. However, this whole discussion should be here. This is about this article and edits to it. Take your lectures elsewhere. Str1977 (smile back) 19:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
str1977 why is it you say using the bible is fashionable but unbiblical? this conversation does belong on this talk page, I was responding to another persons definition of a christian. that definition is closest to the definition given in the bible by Jesus to his followers, which is to obey his commands. I also pointed out that those commands of his were (in his own words) from his father. Kljenni 15:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
respectfully, please tell me, who are you? is every conversation here to be approved by you? Kljenni 23:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Respectfully, I am just a common editor telling you what talk pages are for and what not. Str1977 (smile back) 09:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
ok then.to finalize this I will again say, this topic grew out of a conversation above about whether to include what one anonymous editor considered to be non-christian groups on the christianity page. an editor called Bytebear gave 3 definitions of christian and noted that #3 definition was the most wikipedia appropriate. I agreed. I started a new line called definition of a christian #3 in which I gave biblical support for it. Bytebears definition did say "regardless of belief in his divine nature" and I gave biblical reference to that. The Bible is the only record of the establishment of the Christian Congregation and of the first Christians, those who were taught directly by Jesus. I believe it is appropriate to refer to it when speaking about the teachings of Jesus, his place in his fathers Kingdom arrangement and how to determine whether a group is following Christ or falling away. If they are not following Christ do they deserve to be spoken of as Christians? That was the question was it not? thank you and have a nice day Kljenni 00:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course, conversation grow out and one should not just cut them short but this has got a bit out of hand. However, I disagree about your Bibliocentrism and would ask what "following Christ" is supposed to mean. Is saying "Lord Lord" enough? Does what Jesus actually said and did matter or can one manipulate it in any possible way? Str1977 (smile back) 08:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
and you know that saying "lord Lord" is not what makes a Christian so you are familiar with christs warning to his followers not to leave off from following his example, yet still call him lord. [9] bye Kljenni 00:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Any suggestions on improving the article appearance? As it stands, there are awkward spaces and the drop-down TOC doesn't seem to work too well. Djma12 ( talk) 01:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Could Satanism be considered a Christian sect? It draws all of its ideas about the nature of God and Satan from the Bible. - R160K 23:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe satanism would fit into the catagory of antichristian along with any other religions that teach or promote opposition to Jehovahs rulership. Kljenni 01:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to point out that Satanism as an actual counter-Christian religion is an extreme minority of "Satanists". "Satan" is not an actual entity, but rather an allegory for many Satanists. Most of the rest view Satan as a natural force of change, the anti-status quo, rather than a demon/devil/fallen angel. Modern Satanism has more in common with deism, humanism and "social darwinism" than the classic Black Mass devil-worshipping, church-blaspheming stereotype. Just some thoughts. Vassyana 21:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Someone might want to correct the article where it says when Christ returns will be the "establishment of the Kingdom of God." Nothing in the Bible teaches that the kingdom will be established when Christ returns. All the verses which speak of the kingdom, present it as a current kingdom. I Cor 15:24 refers to Christ coming back as the end and He "delivers the kingdom to God the Father" as a completed kingdom. Christ constantly in the gospels refers to establishing His kingdom during His first advent. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kstevenham ( talk • contribs) 06:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC).
Interested editors may wish to vote at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 March 22. Badagnani 06:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Homestarmy - 2
George - 0
The Jackal God 18:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually if you go by the number of references presented it is 7 to 3 (george). If you add the references Bytebear used below it goes even higher for george. Yay George! Wooo! Wooo! Wooo! *moonwalks* George 21:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Maybe it needs to be a separate linked article(s), but the complete omission of negative impact of christian missionaries on the global south is odd. For this to be a truly objective account of christinaity it has to acknowledge the death and distraction done in it name. Also, the appears to be no mention of other critiques such as liberation theology. ( Ayokunle 18:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC))
The first Paragraph of the Article makes no mention of the Christian Anti-Messianic Church. Our Congregation is an Exception to its Statement that Christians believe that our Lord the Anti-Messiah Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah as Foretold by the Prophet Elijah. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Esa29 ( talk • contribs) date.
Esa, you're on the wrong page, lol. Here's what you were looking for:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cults
and maybe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new_religious_movements
enjoy!
The Jackal God
17:06, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/16786777.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by George m ( talk • contribs) 18:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC).
There are over 5000 Christian denominations listed on the World Christian Database, and none of them use the term Anti-Messiah. -- Cat Whisperer 20:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
"Christianity is a monotheistic[1] religion" hmm. . . What is called Christianity by the world in general is no longer a religion. It is a collective term for any religion that basically " believes in Jesus". Many people would included Mormonism, Roman Catholascism, the Word Faith movement and reformed Baptist teaching all under the label of Christianity, but these are undoubtably different religions.
I am looking for input on this before I change the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zantaggerung ( talk • contribs)
There is absolutely no need to change the current, completely accurate intro. Christianity is a religion. Disputes only arise as far as the classification of any group as belonging to this religion is accurate or not. PS. There is one groups believing in multiple gods and claiming to be Christian, but this group also claims to be monotheistic as well. WP cannot decide the dispute but merely report it. Str1977 (smile back) 07:49, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The change you propose would require supplying a new classification, which would necessarily violate WP:NOR. A.J.A. 14:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
No, Christianity is not one religion anymore (Christianity as most people think of it). Roman Catholics are considered Christians. There are also several "Christian" groups who also say they follow the teachings of the Bible but teach and practice things that are so totally different from Roman Catholic teaching that they can be said to be practically oposite religions. Both are generally labeled as "Christian". Hence rises the statment that Cristianity ( as the world generally labels it) is not a single religion.
Richard, I think that your sample statement is a good try, but not sufficient, sorry. Please try again, it appears that you are better at that sort of thing than me.
Remember it must be taken into account that:
1. Although most "Christian" religions believe in one God composed of three persons, some believe in three manifestations of the same God,and some believe there are many Gods( whether or not they only worship one God)
2. Although most "Cristian" religions believe Jesus was God and yet became man, some believe that he just appeared to be a man, and some believe that he simply inhabited the body of a man chosen for the task.
3. Some "Christian" religions believe humans are basically good and only sin under the influence of Satan or other evil forces, some believe humans are basically evil and only do good because of the influence of God in their lives.
4. Some "Christian" religions believe we choose God, some believe God chooses us.
5. Although most "Christian" religions believe that we can only be saved from judgement by Jesus's death on a cross and rising from the dead, some believe that the good things we do can save us from judgement, and some believe we don't need to be saved judgement.
There are many, many, many more examples such as these, but these are all I'm going to post.
Zantaggerung 18:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I still think we need to discuss what is "a religion".
Now, ask yourself... does this article communicate these issues accurately and succintly to the reader? (no, I don't think so)
I admit that it's difficult to resolve this issue. Roman Catholicism is a religion, Eastern Orthodoxy is a religion, Christianity is "a" religion, too? So, do we have three religions or one? (oops, sounds like the mystery of the Trinity, doesn't it?)
Seriously, if Christianity is a religion, then what is Roman Catholicism? Something less than a religion? Or is it the case that Roman Catholicism is a religion and Christianity is something more than a religion?
-- Richard 21:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I really do get tired of this pitiful, constant attempt to define Christianity in such a way as to exclude those who follow Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. None of the definitions proffered by those who are so eager to exclude those they view as lacking are built upon Biblical definitions. In fact, Jesus Christ would not recognize any of them as definitions of His followers. He had very few requirements. I would encourage each of you to go back to the Bible, you remember that book that you wave about proclaiming that it is true, and come up with a definitions that is proferred by the Savior of mankind. In doing so, you will readily be forced to let go of your narrow definitions that man has created to make them feel good about their choice of relgion.
If you are asking if I am just a bit caustic you would be exact. I am because I am fed up with those novices that have just heard their preacher give warnings on the evils of cults and now, with no futher training or research, they are ready to proclaim their preachers words to world as if it was true. What is probably more dismaying is how some of our regular editors get yanked about by these claims; it is too easy to stir up contention. My recommendation to those who wish to bring up this over and over and over again is to read the dang archives, every one of them, at the end you will find your answer. You will come to know how hard the current form of the article has been negotiated. I would dare to say that none of the newbies bring any more wisdom, knowledge, or expertise than has already existed here. Cool your jets and read before you edit. Move on. -- Storm Rider (talk) 01:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This particular debate was originally on whether Christianity is "a religion" or "a group of religions". Let's stick to that issue. Given that we don't all agree on belief or theology, I would say it is not one religion, but a very broad group of various religions. It can even be non-religion for those who feel they don't need any belief system or "church" to follow Jesus Christ. This article isn't big enough to cover all aspects of all beliefs, so we have to go with the big issues, and branch off to various sub-articles when warranted. Bytebear 01:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Because "Christianity," by definition, constitutes a religious system of beliefs about the person of Christ (which are well-defined in the present article), it is therefore, again by definition, considered a religion. It has been considered thus for centuries. This is not to say that there are not divisions among Christians arising from small perturbations to the core beliefs, but that does not mean that each constitutes a whole new belief system. One cannot say "I believe the earth to be a sphere," while being a card-carrying member of the flat earth society -- it is a logical contradiction. Any attempt to present Christianity as multiple distinct religions is to confound, rather than clarify, the topic, which is counter-encyclopedic, to say the least. LotR 13:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow. I did't think little old me could stir up such a huge argument. Amazing. Zantaggerung 19:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok everybody, lets take The Roman Catholic Church and the Word Faith Movement. In some ways these to belief systems are completely opposite! Yet they are both called Christian by the world in general. So therefore Christianity ( as thought of by the world today) must be more than one religion. Zantaggerung 19:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Non sequiter? Come on, if they have several opposite beliefs, then it follows that they aren't the same religion. Zantaggerung 17:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)