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Archive 25 | ← | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | → | Archive 35 |
The article is lacking a neutral POV. Orthodox Christians feel that only their perspective should be honored. All other groups are castigated and denied the ability to identify as Christian simply because they are not orthodox.
The article in not balanced. It focuses almost exclusively on the mainstream POV and virtually ignores any conflicting ideas, concepts, or beliefs. Until such time as orthodox Christians come to understand that they do not own this article and all language that excludes or denies Christianity to all other groups, regardless of their belief in Christ, this article is under a cloud of dispute. Storm Rider (talk) 09:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I seem to have anticipated this problem a while ago, and proposed a somewhat minor reformatting of the article to avoid this, where the article took a more descriptive stance, classifying the different Christian groups and expressing their positions based on confessional texts (when available), and noting the proper similarities and differences. Personally, if I had to label the article in one way or another, I would say that it is a fairly apt description of mainstream Christianity as experienced in the English-speaking world, hence there is more protestant influence than might be expected, a general lack of attention to precise information about Eastern Christianity, and an slant toward ecumenical compromise rather than doctrinal clarity (this last part I think is most significant). All that said, it’s a good article.
Lostcaesar
12:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Myopic, I have no problem having an article that is balanced; in fact, I strive for that objective. The current article is not balanced. Should the majority of the article be focused on mainstream thought and practice? YES! I have always supported that and my edits have always reflected that objective. Should the article be solely about orthodox Christianity? NO. The title of the article is Christianity; a much broader, diverse religious group than some orthodox are comfortable, but it is reality nonetheless.
Homestarmy, one little sentence? Yes and no. The sentence is representative of the article as awhole. This article is not balanced or representative of Christianity, but rather has become a showpiece for mainstream Christianity. I am tired of petty edit wars and I want it stopped. I want to come to agreement about what is appropriate and what is not. Let me try to put this in personal terms. Place yourself in my shoes, you know Jesus Christ, but everyone is telling you, you are not Christian. The problem is their definition of Christian is nonBiblical; it is made of whole cloth. It is a contrivance in order to be divisive and has been used throughout history to brand others as heretical or cultish. What do you do? I have chosen to bring this to a head now. Storm Rider (talk) 17:43, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not up to us to prove to your satisfaction that you're not a Christian. Nor is LostCaesar's personal opinion relevant here. The simple fact is, whether or not Mormonism, the JWs, etc. are Christian is highly disputed. Therefore stating as fact either that they are or aren't is not permitted by WP:NPOV. Wikipedia is not here to help StormRider's self-esteem by assuring him that all those mean Christians are wrong and he does too belong to the club regardless of what all the members say.
And no, we don't need to scrap the article and replace it with something poorly structured and unusable just to avoid edit wars from aggressive Mormons. A.J.A. 20:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
One thing I did when I rewrote parts of this section was to give a percise lead sentence: "Today, there is diversity of doctrines and practices amongst various groups that label themselves as Christian... The point of this was to create a framework in which we would discuss groups that label themselves as Christian. This is in accord with the naming policy that Andrew mentioned. The section does not attempt to actually express a techinical definition of what qualifies as Christian, and that lead sentence is a move to avoid such conflict. Based on this lead sentence, I don't see a problem extending the term Christian to JW or LDS. Again, I think this is a question that must be dealt with in the particular, rather than the general, but I don't see a difficulty here. I see more of a difficulty with the nebulous term "mainstream Christianity", and I think perhaps either defining this percisely or choosing a different phrase would be good. As I see it, the article says mainstream Christianity when it means groups of Christians that accept the first few Ecumenical councils. Lostcaesar 07:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the POV tag should be moved to the section entitled Christian Divisions; I don't contest the article. Homestar, I have already said above that if you think it necessary, go ahead and say "Mainstream Christianity rejects these churches as heretical or even as cults", so please explain. I think you are more than capable of providing referneces for such a statement for the three groups mentioned. What I find comical is that the reference for the membership of the LDS is found Adherents.com under the title, "Major Denominational Families of Christianity", an unbiased third party.
AJA, I know this is difficult for you. My definition is inclusive, it is broad, and it is Biblical. What you are presenting is divisive, exclusionary, and self-serving. Please do not attribute words to me, when you are wrong I will tell you. You will not need to deduce my meaning. Neither of us agree much with the other, but let's forget about taking things personally or throwing verbal "darts" at one another. The focus is the article and making it better. If I have offended you, I apologize.
Again, please define what it takes to be a Christian. Further, does being a Christian allow what to belong to Christianity? Storm Rider (talk) 17:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Interestingly at Talk:Jews for Jesus a consensus was reached that organisations that consider themselves Jewish should not be labelled as Jewish if most of the other denominations of that religion consider them to be not part of it. This was argued very strongly and resulted in Wikipedia not being allowed to call JFJ Jewish because other Jews thought they weren't. DJ Clayworth 18:29, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Lostcaesar 19:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Lost, you get to my end points in many respects. This is an encyclopedic article and not an opinion piece for zealots (much to AJA's personal dismay; smarmy enough? Also, please take it personally; it was intended to be so! I am still surprised AJA you have not even begun to answer the blunt question asked at least 3 times; when we can't answer the question, baffle with BS?). From a strict, historical perspective LDS, JW's, African indigenous churches, etc., all fall within Christianity. That is a statement of fact and not opinion. It is also a statement of fact that there are denominations/churches that declare other denominations/churches heretical, or perjoratively, cults, etc. LDS definitively fall into this category. To state that JW's, LDS, etc are outside of Christianity is POV. To state they are a cult is also POV, but can be supported with references.
It is not suprising to me to find so much difficulty defining the beliefs of a Christian or what is Christianity. When using the Bible it is very difficult to be very divisive between Christians; it is virtually impossible. I enjoy hearing defnitions a la "The Bible Answer Man", Hank Hanegraaff about what is Christian because you have to go through such amazing backflips of logic; one must go outside of the scriptures and appeal to philosophies of 4th century Christianity and their interpretations of scripture. That also is not opinion, that is fact. HOWEVER, these are issues that are beside the topic. The topic is Christianty and writing this article from a historical perspective without agendas and from a neutral viewpoint, which is lacking.
The current paragraph reads:
Who finds it difficult? LDS are quite clear, even adament, they do not descend from Catholicism. They claim to be a restoration of the church instituted by Christ. That is their claim, the facts. It is not difficult. The way it is written now is from a orthodox viewpoint. If I am not mistaken JW's also claim to be part of the restoration movement, but their's was a restoration of thought and understanding of scripture rather than organization. As I have stated before, I do not know enough about the African churches to contribute or explain their position. The paragraph in question should not be written from an orthodox perception, but from a historical perspective. Are these groups part of Christianity? Of course. Do other Christians have problems with them? Of course. Do these groups have problems with other Christians doctrinally? Of course. IT is not difficult and it certainly is not complex. Storm Rider (talk) 00:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a proposed rewording of part of the section text:
I am confused by some of the language. The section reads that Protestantism is the second major branch, but the section reads as if Eastern Christianity is really the second branch. Which is which?
After studying the African churches it appears that their genesis lies within the Anglican and Pentecostal movements; with a strong leaning on gifts of the Spirit today. I believe they are appropriately labeled Protestants and don't see a reason as to discount this affiliation. It is a diverse group with a broad range of beliefs not easily grouped as they currently are as just African indigenous churches.
Restorationists are presented with their major concept that binds them together; however, it also is a diverse group with a broad range of individual beliefs.
I don't see a need to identify them with the number of members belonging to groups. In saying that, I also think the number of Catholics and Eastern Chrisitans is irrelevant to this article and should be deleted. This is my initial draft; thoughts and comments? Storm Rider (talk) 07:16, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate the efforts made to equally mention all Christian denomination and their beliefs. POV of other religions have been some what neglected. I believe a chapter about the relations of Christianity and other religions should be added. The chapter about controversies and criticism needs to be expanded. Many paragraphs appear to be coming from a Christian point of view. I will point out several areas where the text is not suitable for an encyclopedia at its current form.
The section about Jesus details the events leading to his execution according the New Testament. Although the phrase “According to the Gospels” appear in the text, it needs to be reiterated and emphasized. Description of “The Passion of Christ” is extremely controversial and highly sensitive (many may remember the turmoil surrounding Mel Gibsons’ movie).
Persecution: A. “Christians have frequently suffered from persecution”, since Christianity became the religion of Rome most Christians were not persecuted by any body but other Christians. For the sake of clarity, it seems the first and second sentences need to be joined and the paragraph restructured. B. Persecution of the Jews by Christians existed since Christianity became an organized religion and is prevalent throughout Christian history till this day. Please see the article titled Anti Semitism for reference. Events such as crusades, expulsion of Jews from Spain and many European nations, Spanish inquisitions’ forced conversion of Jews, pogroms in Russia and the Holocaust should be mentioned. Wikiwacko 23:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
If this article is written exclusively by Christians, there will be a tendency for bias. Also, only the good points about Christianity will be mentioned. The many factual and philosophical flaws with the religion will be ignored. Would it, therefore, be a good idea to have someone with a rational point of view keep an eye on the article to make sure it is not too one-sided.
Would it not also be a good idea to state what different groups' opinions are of Christianity?
Someone with access to a Catholic Catechism should tell us how much of the second paragraph of Christianity#Interpretation is a quote. The paragraph has 7 quote marks, so there's no way to pair them up. Art LaPella 13:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Art LaPella 18:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Unless I missed something, the chapters of the Institutes LostCaesar cited in "Interpretation" discuss the authority of Scripture, not its interpretation.
Even if it had discussed interpretation, what he added is an obvious malicious misstatement.
Also, the references he added require a huge amount of cleanup, which I think reflects what's wrong with, well, everything he's doing. He has no concern for the reader. A.J.A. 18:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Lostcaesar 21:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not persuaded engaging you in dialogue is worthwhile. It's not up to me to prove to your satisfaction you missrepresented Calvin, since you're the one who commited the offense and therefore hardly in any position to judge. A.J.A. 04:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not reverting your work, I am restoring my work that you are deleting by reverts, so your characterization of me, and reason for dismissing collegiality, are in error. To give examples of my collegiality, I did not yet reintroduce the passage on Calvin. When you had a problem with it, I took it to talk. I may well be wrong, and would like your input, I was merely characterizing chapters 6-8, and I think by the titles alone you can see where I was comming from, but I may well be in error and need your help with this. Also, I did not change you citations (though you said I did, strangely). Instead, I came here and gave my concern about them. You have not really responded to my concerns. A specific section number is better than a chapter head, especially when the chapter head does not express the internal contents well. If you do not like Roman numerals, change them to Arabic numerals and move on – it is not a reason to revert. Let me be clear about what I will do here. I will await specific reasons for you changes. If you do not provide them, or if they are completely erroneous (as they have been thus far), then I will restore my contributions. Let me say that I would prefer to engage in a dialogue and improve the article through collegiality, but the choice is yours. I do not hold that my changes are always perfect, or correct, and the article needs contributions of others, such as yourself. But I do hold that my contributions are in good faith, and are an attempt to make the article more informative. Your knee jerk reaction to my changes, and previous comments, lead me to believe that you think I have some conspiracy or agenda to push, but you have never supported that with specifics. Please, understand my changes in the correct light, and work with me. Otherwise we will do nothing but revert. Lostcaesar 09:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
The source, Niall Ferguson (2005). Colossus: The Rise and Fall of the American Empire. Penguin Books. pp. p. 22.
ISBN
0-14-101700-7. {{
cite book}}
: |pages=
has extra text (
help) specifically says that the missionaries have almost doubled in 20 years. It says nothing about the actual population statistics of religious practitioners in the middle east. Therefore, I think it is misleading to say that the source supports the previous wording in the article so I have removed it. (a side note, the source also says that the evangelical Christian population has gone up 20% in Latin America, but it doesn't say that there were more Christians than before, I guess Catholics could be converting, etc). --
Andrew c
02:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
AJ brought up an interesting point concerning references. I think this is a sign of a greater problem. We could use to have a standardized references system with this article. What many articles have been working towards is to have a full bibliography of all sources used at the bottom, with specific references being notes with brief information that can be easily linked to the main bibliography, in imitation of the standard system used in published books. Considering the recent attention the article has been given, especially its references, I think this would be a good goal of standardization. Lostcaesar 10:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Currently, the line reads:
I have a source here which gives the membership of this Church at 100,000. First, is that large enough to be mentioned here? If we mentioned every protestant group with 100,000 plus members it would go on forever. Second, the 300 million members seems to be 99% GO and OO, but this is not obvious from the passage. If we want to keep the Church listen then that is ok with me, but we will have to add it in the numbers to it specifically, I think, which I can do. Also, would there be an objection to putting "Nestorian" in parentheses next to it, if we leave it in. I know that I was really confused by Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Church of the East when I first read the article, and if it had just said Monophysite and Nestorian I would have known exactly when they were, as that is what history books use to name them. I have been told that Monophysite is insulting to OO, but is Nestorian a problem for Assyrian Church of the East? So, anyway, the questions are: (1)leave this group in or not, and (2) if yes to 1, add membership numbers or not, and (3) if yes to 1, add "Nestorians" as parenthetical information, or not. Lostcaesar 07:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | → | Archive 35 |
The article is lacking a neutral POV. Orthodox Christians feel that only their perspective should be honored. All other groups are castigated and denied the ability to identify as Christian simply because they are not orthodox.
The article in not balanced. It focuses almost exclusively on the mainstream POV and virtually ignores any conflicting ideas, concepts, or beliefs. Until such time as orthodox Christians come to understand that they do not own this article and all language that excludes or denies Christianity to all other groups, regardless of their belief in Christ, this article is under a cloud of dispute. Storm Rider (talk) 09:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I seem to have anticipated this problem a while ago, and proposed a somewhat minor reformatting of the article to avoid this, where the article took a more descriptive stance, classifying the different Christian groups and expressing their positions based on confessional texts (when available), and noting the proper similarities and differences. Personally, if I had to label the article in one way or another, I would say that it is a fairly apt description of mainstream Christianity as experienced in the English-speaking world, hence there is more protestant influence than might be expected, a general lack of attention to precise information about Eastern Christianity, and an slant toward ecumenical compromise rather than doctrinal clarity (this last part I think is most significant). All that said, it’s a good article.
Lostcaesar
12:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Myopic, I have no problem having an article that is balanced; in fact, I strive for that objective. The current article is not balanced. Should the majority of the article be focused on mainstream thought and practice? YES! I have always supported that and my edits have always reflected that objective. Should the article be solely about orthodox Christianity? NO. The title of the article is Christianity; a much broader, diverse religious group than some orthodox are comfortable, but it is reality nonetheless.
Homestarmy, one little sentence? Yes and no. The sentence is representative of the article as awhole. This article is not balanced or representative of Christianity, but rather has become a showpiece for mainstream Christianity. I am tired of petty edit wars and I want it stopped. I want to come to agreement about what is appropriate and what is not. Let me try to put this in personal terms. Place yourself in my shoes, you know Jesus Christ, but everyone is telling you, you are not Christian. The problem is their definition of Christian is nonBiblical; it is made of whole cloth. It is a contrivance in order to be divisive and has been used throughout history to brand others as heretical or cultish. What do you do? I have chosen to bring this to a head now. Storm Rider (talk) 17:43, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not up to us to prove to your satisfaction that you're not a Christian. Nor is LostCaesar's personal opinion relevant here. The simple fact is, whether or not Mormonism, the JWs, etc. are Christian is highly disputed. Therefore stating as fact either that they are or aren't is not permitted by WP:NPOV. Wikipedia is not here to help StormRider's self-esteem by assuring him that all those mean Christians are wrong and he does too belong to the club regardless of what all the members say.
And no, we don't need to scrap the article and replace it with something poorly structured and unusable just to avoid edit wars from aggressive Mormons. A.J.A. 20:44, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
One thing I did when I rewrote parts of this section was to give a percise lead sentence: "Today, there is diversity of doctrines and practices amongst various groups that label themselves as Christian... The point of this was to create a framework in which we would discuss groups that label themselves as Christian. This is in accord with the naming policy that Andrew mentioned. The section does not attempt to actually express a techinical definition of what qualifies as Christian, and that lead sentence is a move to avoid such conflict. Based on this lead sentence, I don't see a problem extending the term Christian to JW or LDS. Again, I think this is a question that must be dealt with in the particular, rather than the general, but I don't see a difficulty here. I see more of a difficulty with the nebulous term "mainstream Christianity", and I think perhaps either defining this percisely or choosing a different phrase would be good. As I see it, the article says mainstream Christianity when it means groups of Christians that accept the first few Ecumenical councils. Lostcaesar 07:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I think the POV tag should be moved to the section entitled Christian Divisions; I don't contest the article. Homestar, I have already said above that if you think it necessary, go ahead and say "Mainstream Christianity rejects these churches as heretical or even as cults", so please explain. I think you are more than capable of providing referneces for such a statement for the three groups mentioned. What I find comical is that the reference for the membership of the LDS is found Adherents.com under the title, "Major Denominational Families of Christianity", an unbiased third party.
AJA, I know this is difficult for you. My definition is inclusive, it is broad, and it is Biblical. What you are presenting is divisive, exclusionary, and self-serving. Please do not attribute words to me, when you are wrong I will tell you. You will not need to deduce my meaning. Neither of us agree much with the other, but let's forget about taking things personally or throwing verbal "darts" at one another. The focus is the article and making it better. If I have offended you, I apologize.
Again, please define what it takes to be a Christian. Further, does being a Christian allow what to belong to Christianity? Storm Rider (talk) 17:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Interestingly at Talk:Jews for Jesus a consensus was reached that organisations that consider themselves Jewish should not be labelled as Jewish if most of the other denominations of that religion consider them to be not part of it. This was argued very strongly and resulted in Wikipedia not being allowed to call JFJ Jewish because other Jews thought they weren't. DJ Clayworth 18:29, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Lostcaesar 19:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Lost, you get to my end points in many respects. This is an encyclopedic article and not an opinion piece for zealots (much to AJA's personal dismay; smarmy enough? Also, please take it personally; it was intended to be so! I am still surprised AJA you have not even begun to answer the blunt question asked at least 3 times; when we can't answer the question, baffle with BS?). From a strict, historical perspective LDS, JW's, African indigenous churches, etc., all fall within Christianity. That is a statement of fact and not opinion. It is also a statement of fact that there are denominations/churches that declare other denominations/churches heretical, or perjoratively, cults, etc. LDS definitively fall into this category. To state that JW's, LDS, etc are outside of Christianity is POV. To state they are a cult is also POV, but can be supported with references.
It is not suprising to me to find so much difficulty defining the beliefs of a Christian or what is Christianity. When using the Bible it is very difficult to be very divisive between Christians; it is virtually impossible. I enjoy hearing defnitions a la "The Bible Answer Man", Hank Hanegraaff about what is Christian because you have to go through such amazing backflips of logic; one must go outside of the scriptures and appeal to philosophies of 4th century Christianity and their interpretations of scripture. That also is not opinion, that is fact. HOWEVER, these are issues that are beside the topic. The topic is Christianty and writing this article from a historical perspective without agendas and from a neutral viewpoint, which is lacking.
The current paragraph reads:
Who finds it difficult? LDS are quite clear, even adament, they do not descend from Catholicism. They claim to be a restoration of the church instituted by Christ. That is their claim, the facts. It is not difficult. The way it is written now is from a orthodox viewpoint. If I am not mistaken JW's also claim to be part of the restoration movement, but their's was a restoration of thought and understanding of scripture rather than organization. As I have stated before, I do not know enough about the African churches to contribute or explain their position. The paragraph in question should not be written from an orthodox perception, but from a historical perspective. Are these groups part of Christianity? Of course. Do other Christians have problems with them? Of course. Do these groups have problems with other Christians doctrinally? Of course. IT is not difficult and it certainly is not complex. Storm Rider (talk) 00:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a proposed rewording of part of the section text:
I am confused by some of the language. The section reads that Protestantism is the second major branch, but the section reads as if Eastern Christianity is really the second branch. Which is which?
After studying the African churches it appears that their genesis lies within the Anglican and Pentecostal movements; with a strong leaning on gifts of the Spirit today. I believe they are appropriately labeled Protestants and don't see a reason as to discount this affiliation. It is a diverse group with a broad range of beliefs not easily grouped as they currently are as just African indigenous churches.
Restorationists are presented with their major concept that binds them together; however, it also is a diverse group with a broad range of individual beliefs.
I don't see a need to identify them with the number of members belonging to groups. In saying that, I also think the number of Catholics and Eastern Chrisitans is irrelevant to this article and should be deleted. This is my initial draft; thoughts and comments? Storm Rider (talk) 07:16, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate the efforts made to equally mention all Christian denomination and their beliefs. POV of other religions have been some what neglected. I believe a chapter about the relations of Christianity and other religions should be added. The chapter about controversies and criticism needs to be expanded. Many paragraphs appear to be coming from a Christian point of view. I will point out several areas where the text is not suitable for an encyclopedia at its current form.
The section about Jesus details the events leading to his execution according the New Testament. Although the phrase “According to the Gospels” appear in the text, it needs to be reiterated and emphasized. Description of “The Passion of Christ” is extremely controversial and highly sensitive (many may remember the turmoil surrounding Mel Gibsons’ movie).
Persecution: A. “Christians have frequently suffered from persecution”, since Christianity became the religion of Rome most Christians were not persecuted by any body but other Christians. For the sake of clarity, it seems the first and second sentences need to be joined and the paragraph restructured. B. Persecution of the Jews by Christians existed since Christianity became an organized religion and is prevalent throughout Christian history till this day. Please see the article titled Anti Semitism for reference. Events such as crusades, expulsion of Jews from Spain and many European nations, Spanish inquisitions’ forced conversion of Jews, pogroms in Russia and the Holocaust should be mentioned. Wikiwacko 23:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
If this article is written exclusively by Christians, there will be a tendency for bias. Also, only the good points about Christianity will be mentioned. The many factual and philosophical flaws with the religion will be ignored. Would it, therefore, be a good idea to have someone with a rational point of view keep an eye on the article to make sure it is not too one-sided.
Would it not also be a good idea to state what different groups' opinions are of Christianity?
Someone with access to a Catholic Catechism should tell us how much of the second paragraph of Christianity#Interpretation is a quote. The paragraph has 7 quote marks, so there's no way to pair them up. Art LaPella 13:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Art LaPella 18:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Unless I missed something, the chapters of the Institutes LostCaesar cited in "Interpretation" discuss the authority of Scripture, not its interpretation.
Even if it had discussed interpretation, what he added is an obvious malicious misstatement.
Also, the references he added require a huge amount of cleanup, which I think reflects what's wrong with, well, everything he's doing. He has no concern for the reader. A.J.A. 18:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Lostcaesar 21:51, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not persuaded engaging you in dialogue is worthwhile. It's not up to me to prove to your satisfaction you missrepresented Calvin, since you're the one who commited the offense and therefore hardly in any position to judge. A.J.A. 04:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not reverting your work, I am restoring my work that you are deleting by reverts, so your characterization of me, and reason for dismissing collegiality, are in error. To give examples of my collegiality, I did not yet reintroduce the passage on Calvin. When you had a problem with it, I took it to talk. I may well be wrong, and would like your input, I was merely characterizing chapters 6-8, and I think by the titles alone you can see where I was comming from, but I may well be in error and need your help with this. Also, I did not change you citations (though you said I did, strangely). Instead, I came here and gave my concern about them. You have not really responded to my concerns. A specific section number is better than a chapter head, especially when the chapter head does not express the internal contents well. If you do not like Roman numerals, change them to Arabic numerals and move on – it is not a reason to revert. Let me be clear about what I will do here. I will await specific reasons for you changes. If you do not provide them, or if they are completely erroneous (as they have been thus far), then I will restore my contributions. Let me say that I would prefer to engage in a dialogue and improve the article through collegiality, but the choice is yours. I do not hold that my changes are always perfect, or correct, and the article needs contributions of others, such as yourself. But I do hold that my contributions are in good faith, and are an attempt to make the article more informative. Your knee jerk reaction to my changes, and previous comments, lead me to believe that you think I have some conspiracy or agenda to push, but you have never supported that with specifics. Please, understand my changes in the correct light, and work with me. Otherwise we will do nothing but revert. Lostcaesar 09:17, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
The source, Niall Ferguson (2005). Colossus: The Rise and Fall of the American Empire. Penguin Books. pp. p. 22.
ISBN
0-14-101700-7. {{
cite book}}
: |pages=
has extra text (
help) specifically says that the missionaries have almost doubled in 20 years. It says nothing about the actual population statistics of religious practitioners in the middle east. Therefore, I think it is misleading to say that the source supports the previous wording in the article so I have removed it. (a side note, the source also says that the evangelical Christian population has gone up 20% in Latin America, but it doesn't say that there were more Christians than before, I guess Catholics could be converting, etc). --
Andrew c
02:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
AJ brought up an interesting point concerning references. I think this is a sign of a greater problem. We could use to have a standardized references system with this article. What many articles have been working towards is to have a full bibliography of all sources used at the bottom, with specific references being notes with brief information that can be easily linked to the main bibliography, in imitation of the standard system used in published books. Considering the recent attention the article has been given, especially its references, I think this would be a good goal of standardization. Lostcaesar 10:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Currently, the line reads:
I have a source here which gives the membership of this Church at 100,000. First, is that large enough to be mentioned here? If we mentioned every protestant group with 100,000 plus members it would go on forever. Second, the 300 million members seems to be 99% GO and OO, but this is not obvious from the passage. If we want to keep the Church listen then that is ok with me, but we will have to add it in the numbers to it specifically, I think, which I can do. Also, would there be an objection to putting "Nestorian" in parentheses next to it, if we leave it in. I know that I was really confused by Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Church of the East when I first read the article, and if it had just said Monophysite and Nestorian I would have known exactly when they were, as that is what history books use to name them. I have been told that Monophysite is insulting to OO, but is Nestorian a problem for Assyrian Church of the East? So, anyway, the questions are: (1)leave this group in or not, and (2) if yes to 1, add membership numbers or not, and (3) if yes to 1, add "Nestorians" as parenthetical information, or not. Lostcaesar 07:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)