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Perhaps we should finally finish arguing over monotheism and moonism? We have too much else to do to fight over one word. I'm compiling the other suggestions so they don't get drowned out by the monotheism-tritheism rollercoaster: Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to distract you all from arguing about monotheism for a bit to suggest a little reorganization.
The two sections "Beliefs" and "Differences in Beliefs" should become one section simply called "Beliefs", with the following organization:
This puts everything in a neater, more organized form, avoids stub-sections, and eliminates the awkwardly-titled section "Differences in Beliefs". A.J.A. 16:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's not forget there are still three statements with "citation needed" tags. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi all, Unforunately I have not promoted this article because of problems with certain sections of the article.
The Beliefs section is of particular concern. Many of the subsections in it are single sentences. This is itself a stylistic concern, but I also worry some of the explainations are overly terse and do not present their subject in sufficient depth. The Second Coming subsection is especially terse and seems to side-step much of the detail mentioned in related articles such as Christian eschatology.
The Differences in beliefs section is good. The Worship and practices section could probably be stated in a more concise manner (especially the subsections). The History section is fine. The last paragraph of the Persecution section on persecution by Christians could probably be dropped. The Controversies section could probably be expanded slightly although by that I do not mean it should become a long list of controversies.
Overall, parts of the article feel they were designed by committee. A really good encyclopedia article should not just state facts but offer insight into its subject. Don't be afraid to leave out minor points if it allows you to offer better insight into the core subject of the article.
I hope this helps and please feel free to resubmit the article for nomination in the future. Cedars 16:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Folks, we are wandering again. Can we set aside the section and talk the introduction alone?
Let me recap what we have:
For the first paragraph, that leaves us with:
Drogo quoted from, Encyclopedia Britannic above:
There appears to be a typo in the quote. Is it saying that "it's tritheism-monotheism"?
Also, Britannica does not say that Christianity isn't monotheism, but attributes this assertion to "Islamic doctrine", which isn't a reliable - or verifiable - source on Christianity. We still have not one dead-on assertion from of the sort seen in multiple sources on the other side. Timothy Usher 19:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
No religion has interpreted monotheism in a more consequential and literal way than Islam. According to Islamic doctrine the Christian dogma of a trinitarian god is a form of tritheism—of a three-god belief. There is no issue upon which this religion is so intransigent as the one of monotheism. The profession of faith, the first of the so-called Five Pillars of Islam (the basic requirements for the faithful Muslim), states clearly and unambiguously that “there is no God but Allah,” and in accordance with this principle the religion knows no greater sin than shirk (“partnership”), the attribution of partners to Allah; that is to say, polytheism, or anything that may look like it—e.g., the notion of a divine trinity. The Qur'an declares: “Say: He, Allah, is one. Allah, the eternal. Neither has he begotten, nor is he begotten. And no one is his equal” (112). This profession of faith in Allah as the one god is encountered in a more popular form, for example, in the stories of The Thousand and One Nights: “There is no god except Allah alone, he has no companions, to him belongs the power and he is to be praised, he gives life and death and he is mighty over all things.” In only one respect has the uncompromising monotheism of Islam shown itself to be vulnerable; i.e., in the doctrine of the Qur'an as uncreated and coeval with Allah himself.
From the encyclopedia britannica online. I thought I would copy the entire section for those without access, I think this is ok. Drogo Underburrow 19:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, and that's why I linked the word "geometry" to the article on the Shield. The image is public domain, so I may as well include it (pardon the Latin):
Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 04:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Although Catholics and Protestants believe in the Son of God (Jesus) redeeming mankind, this would have to be one of the only primary beliefs shared by the two. I believe there should be a very clear distinction between Catholics and Protestants. Catholics believe in the virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, and spouse of the Holy Spirit. They believe that she guides people on the right path, whether appearing in dreams, visions or the like - Protestants oppose this. They experience stigmata, (the supernatural bleeding of hands and feet) - something that Protestants oppose. Catholics also believe that they need to repent to a priest for their sins, that there will be a necessary spiritual cleansing in Purgatory before reaching heaven, they pray to Mary, and they pray to saints. Protestants oppose this. Protestants believe that because Jesus died for our sins,they believe they don't need to go to Purgatory (they are already forgiven when they repent) therefore they don't need to repent to a priest (only to Jesus), they do not believe that Mary can help them, neither can the "saints" because they were ordinary people and they believe don't have the ability to come back to earth to help (God is there to help, not saints or Mary). There are many, many more huge distinctions between the two beliefs. I think that from the very beginning of this article, there should be a very clear and accurate passage stating the major differences between Catholicism and Protestants - (eg. Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans... and so on). Catholicism is much more seperate than any other demoninations. If you would like me to do a lot of research on the differences between Catholocism and Protestans, I would be happy to. Thanks for your time.
Historian Joshua 01:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)Historian Joshua
Why is it that simple improvements get reverted over a wording quible? Why does everything have to be pulling teeth?
I'm putting the pictures back. Watch, they'll be taken out again. A.J.A. 21:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Touché! Sophia 21:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm finding this conversation absolutely ridiculous.
As far as I can tell the definitions are being applied this.
Several times I've brought up the example that under this definition Zeus worshippers and Hindus are monotheistic. No one is refuting it since after all it agrees with the OED. OK so I typed at command prompt on my mac say "I believe in one god" and wow my laptop now is a monotheist! And if you object to this tell me how it is any different than the arguments above? What is true of the definition being applied that isn't true of my laptop? I asked before and I didn't get an answer. If we are going to define monotheism this weakly then why mention it at all? Why is it not like "Christianity is a religion practiced exclusively by mammals"? jbolden1517 Talk 22:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
To quote some articles on wikipedia Monotheism#Comparison_to_polytheism_and_dualism, Soft polytheism, or getting weaker Henotheism, Monolatrism, Kathenotheism. jbolden1517 Talk 01:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Jbolden1517 said that a definition being applied was "Person X is a monotheist if they believe in one god." As I have said, again and again, the definition is the belief that there is one God, not belief in on God. "Believe in" carries a stronger meaning than "believe that there is", as it can (though doesn't have to) imply a certain amount of faith and trust, which goes far beyond the simple "believe in the existence of". The Nicene Creed has "I believe in" when the object of the belief is the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit. But for other Christian beliefs (Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, baptism, forgiveness of sins, resurrection of the dead, and life everlasting), it doens't use "in".
Oh well, if I go to bed now, will I find when I wake up, that the debate carried on throughout the night as to whether Christians truly worship one God in their practice? AnnH ♫ 00:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
To to expand upon Jbolden's comments, henotheism is the belief that a pantheon of gods exist, but one worships only one among them; this is found in Hinduism today (it sure sounds like ancient Roman and Greek religious constructs). Modalism is the strict belief in one god; it is nontrinitarian. There was no three distinct persons in the Trinity, just God the Father. It is a bit complicated after that. Some might remember Sabellian who proffered this concept strongly. Monotheism is obviously more complicated than we may have thought. I do believe that we are so ingrained to believe that all Christians are monotheists that it is difficult to conceive of any other term applying to our personal beliefs than monotheism. Regardless, I am ready to see this ended. Are Christians monotheists? Yes, most definitely. Do other labels apply? Yes, it just depends on the person and the church discussed. Storm Rider (talk) 01:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
To answer jbolden's original comment: It is absolutely ridiculous, or at the very least absurdist. There seem to be two factions with two different operational definitions of "monotheism." To wit:
Now, has been noted, the second faction is debating not only other editors, but with dictionaries both English and Greek. The first faction is using the English language, as described by various dictionaries. The second faction has gone Through the Looking Glass and joined up with Humpty Dumpty:
No one is disputing that the Trinity is unique among Abrahamic monotheisitic relgions. There is no reason not to say so in the article. Does that mean that Christianity is not monotheistic? No, because the word "monotheism" has a more general meaning, the first definition given above. There are other, perfectly good English words that have the second definition, which is after all a subset of the first definition. Of course, if the second faction wishes to join Alice on her adventures, they are free to do so; just don't confuse Humpty Dumpty language with English. Remember, too, that all the King's horses and all the King's men are waiting for you to fall. On this side of the glass, "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument," and monotheism ("mono" one + "theos" god) simply means "Belief that there is only one God." Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 03:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
According to Islam, as the article in Encyclopedia Britannica attests, Christians believe in three gods. Therefore, whether Christianity is monotheistic or not, is disputed. In matters that are disputed, Wikipedia articles cannot pick who is right. Therefore, it is wrong to state as a fact that Christians believe in one God. What they believe is a matter of who you ask, and should be presented as such in the article. Monotheism is indeed defined by the dictionary as believing in one God; whether Christians do believe this is disputed, with the core tenet of Islam saying that they do not believe this. Drogo Underburrow 07:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's look at the Oxford definition again:
We can debate the nature of belief until protons decay and never make any progress on the article, since we cannot read minds. But look at the other side of the definition: is it Christian doctrine that there is only one God? Absolutely. That, by definition, is monotheism. Chrisitianity teaches the doctrine that there is only one God. Therefore, Christianity is a form of monotheism. Therefore, Christianity is monotheistic.
If anyone doubts this statement, I can easily show you the doctrine. Remember, too, that the definition is "doctrine or belief," not "doctrine and belief." The long debates over the nature of belief are essentially meaningless. Christianity is monotheism by doctrine. That is sufficient. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 08:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
AnnH, what you say is not true, but I'm not going to discuss what should be discussed on the Hitler talk page here, nor am I going to reply to your ad hominem arguments. Muslims believe, according to the EB that Christianity is not monotheistic, but tritheistic, therefore it is not a fact that Christianity is monotheistic, but a matter under dispute. Therefore this article is guilty of taking a matter under dispute and asserting it as fact when it says "Christianity is a monotheistic religion...." Drogo Underburrow 09:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Drogo: "The EB is a reputable, scholarly source. If this is not accepted as a case of a source stating that according to Muslim belief Christianity is not monotheistic, then I'm afraid that people simply refuse to see what they do not want to see." - yes, it is a reputable source. But what does it say? It says Muslims believe so-and-so. So (although I am quite certain this is a misrepresentation of the most learned Muslim belief) it can be cited as a source for Muslim belief, as in the controversies section.
What it doesn't say is that Christianity isn't monotheistic. It says that a generic third party doesn't believe it to be. And what you need to meet WP:V isn't a source that says someone else believes it's not - as that doesn't establish that second-hand someone as a reliable source, even when the reporting source (EB) is - but a reputable source that says so itself. Compare the pro sources - they don't say, so-and-so believes Christianity to be monotheistic, but rather, on their own authority that it is monotheistic. Timothy Usher 10:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I'll say again that the definition of monotheism is "The doctrine or belief that there is only one God (as opposed to many, as in polytheism)." Notice it's "doctrine or belief," not "doctrine, also belief" as Giovanni took it. The word "also" never appears in the definition.
There are two kinds of "or." Exclusive or is satistified by either of the following:
Inclusive or is satisified by any of the following:
It can be the last one, but it doesn't have to be. By either definition, doctrine is enough to satisfy "doctrine or belief." What makes any religion monothestic—whether that religion is Judaism, Samaritanism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai, Zoroastrianism or any other—is the doctrine that there is only one God. We cannot read beliefs, which exist in the mind. We can read doctrines. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 10:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's get back to Giovanni's point. I have a few questions for him:
Folks, all of this is beside the point. What do the sources say?
Second, this is a passionate discussion because, for Christians, monotheism is a central doctrine, upom which Christians base much of their doctrine. If you question that, you are challenging their faith. Consider how Muslims would feel if the critique of some Christians that Sufis are panthesist or that the observation that the Angel of the Lord speaks as if he were God in Exodus 3 makes them bitheists.
I'm not sure why this is a big deal for non-Christians, however, but it must be for some reason, or we would not have this debate. I don't understand why they care what Christians believe.
So, back to what we have. We have several sources that point blank call Christianity monotheistic, one that says some Muslims question this. How do we do this, practically speaking? Can we start with new proposals to these facts on the ground? -- CTSWyneken 11:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I am really appalled at the rhetoric being used here. I will repeat for those who may not see it in the mass of verbiage on this page:
According to Islamic doctrine the Christian dogma of a trinitarian god is a form of tritheism—of a three-god belief. - from the Encyclopedia Britannica
So AnnH, you called Islamic doctrine "the Humpty-Dumpty" side? You called the Encyclopedia Britannica "the Humpty-Dumpty" side? How interesting.
Now, on the issue of having the word "monotheism" in the intro, there is no special reason to have it there. The Encyclopedia Britannica does not have the word in the intro to its article. Here is the intro from the EB article:
Christianity - major religion, stemming from the life, teachings, and death of Jesus of Nazareth (the Christ, or the Anointed One of God) in the 1st century AD. It has become the largest of the world's religions. Geographically the most widely diffused of all faiths, it has a constituency of some 2 billion believers. Its largest groups are the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, and the Protestant churches; in addition to these churches there are several independent churches of Eastern Christianity as well as numerous sects throughout the world. See also Eastern Orthodoxy; Roman Catholicism; and Protestantism.
This article first considers the nature and development of the Christian religion, its ideas, and its institutions. This is followed by an examination of several intellectual manifestations of Christianity. Finally, the position of Christianity in the world, the relations among its divisions and denominations, its missionary outreach to other peoples, and its relations with other world religions are discussed. For supporting material on various topics, see biblical literature; doctrine and dogma; Jesus Christ; sacred; worship; prayer; creed; sacrament; religious dress; monasticism; and priesthood.
No one is saying that all Muslims believe anything. But we have an authoritative source that says what Muslim doctrine is; and it is very clear that we are discussing a central doctrine of that religion. We can either change the intro to make it clear who is speaking, or we can eliminate the word "monotheism" from the intro. But it is a NPOV violation to state the Christian version of things as a fact in the intro. Drogo Underburrow 13:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, you are the one that isn't following the discussion, not I. It is Muslim doctrine, according to the EB, that Christians believe in three gods, not one; hence the statement "Christianity is monotheistic" is being challenged, and cannot be stated as fact. It is being disputed what Christians believe. Drogo Underburrow 14:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
How we mention that Christianity is a monotheistic religion in paragraph One?
This "poll" is inherantly biased, stating that the dictionary agrees with one of the choices. It doesn't, but stating that it does makes the poll results invalid. Furthermore, this issue involves NPOV, which is not subject to voting. Editors cannot vote that an article violate NPOV. Drogo Underburrow 15:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I was not voting yes, I was protesting against the poll Drogo Underburrow 20:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
This has been done. Thank you, Aiden. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Can somebody fill me in briefly what the main dispute is here? From what I can see it is over the inclusion of monotheism in the lead, right? With some saying that since some people say it isn't monotheism, it shouldn't be included, right? As of this timestamp, what is wrong with the issue? It seems like it is handled appropriately. Thanks. -- You Know Who (Dark Mark) 14:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I used to believe as you do. But then I saw that Muslims say that Christianity is not monotheistic. So, even if I believe that it is, because it fits the dictionary definition, that doesn't matter. Muslims say its not monotheistic. Maybe Muslims don't know what the dictionary says. It doesn't matter. They say its not monotheistic, and that is all that counts. Its not up to us to decide that the Muslim view is unreasonable or wrong, or misguided or misinformed. Drogo Underburrow 15:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Lord Voldemort, no one is saying to put in the article that Christianity IS NOT monotheistic. What I object to is saying that it IS monotheistic. We have to stay neutral, saying neither one. Instead, we state that Christians believe that their religion is monotheistic, and other religions, such as Islam, disagree. Drogo Underburrow 16:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Scroll up on the page, I copied the entire section from the EB. I assure your Muslim friend I am not a polytheist, and ask him not to insult me, as coming from a Muslim that is being very insulting, Muslims consider polytheists to be grave sinners and think its ok to do all sorts of bad things to them, like kill them. Drogo Underburrow 16:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Lord Voldemort, the article cannot state it as a fact that Jesus was divine. The article must simply state that Christians believe he was divine. The article cannot state as a fact that Jesus existed. It can only state that the vast majority of scholars assume he existed in some form. The article cannot state as a fact that he died on the cross; it can only state that the Gospels say he did. etc, etc. Drogo Underburrow 16:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Christian editors are being very unreasonable on this issue. Here's why: they want the article to state as the very first thing their POV as a fact, that they are monotheists, and shunt to the end of the article a statement that disagrees, expressed as only an opinion. Drogo Underburrow 16:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Drogo:
But most important of all:
Okay, Drogo has a point. Let's rewrite this entire article. Here are some things that the article needs to change:
Okay, so I've broken down the first three sentences... So perhaps they should read: Christianity is an alleged monotheistic so-called religion centered somewhat on the life and some of teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, if he really existed which may not be true, as recounted in the anonymously authored and highly specious New Testament. Some Christians believe "Jesus" to be the Messiah, if one exists, and thus refer to him sometimes as "Jesus Christ", as well as "guy", "dude", and "liberal". With an estimated 2.1 billion so-called adherents in the "Christian" calendar year of 2001, Christianity is the world's largest "religion" (not counting the invisible beings that are present at all times).
Sound good? Anyone else wanna help break down the rest? Yes, I'm trying to make a point (no, not a WP:POINT). This is an encyclopedia. We describe things. We give them the best possible description and explanation as possible. The best possible description of what Christians believe is "monotheism". We do give critics of this view some time in the article, but we don't change the entire thing just because some disagree with what Christians hold true. -- You Know Who (Dark Mark) 16:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Christianity is a religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recounted in the New Testament. Christians believe Jesus to be the Messiah, and thus refer to him as Jesus Christ. With an estimated 2.1 billion adherents in 2001, Christianity is the world's largest religion.
Drogo, according to the EB, Muslims doctrine states that Christianity is a form of tritheism. According to an actual Muslim, Christians mischaracterize Muslim objections as a charge of tritheism. Are you saying that the EB is right and actual Muslims are wrong about what Muslims believe?
If you are going to cite Muslim doctrine, it is better to cite Muslims than to cite the EB. The EB is, plain and simple, not Muslim doctrine. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 17:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Given that faith traditions frequently argue against the claims of competing faith traditions, where does this Pandora's box end? Again, I implore, take the discussion to Trinitarianism or monotheism, and just use this article to describe what Christianity is. It claims to be monotheistic. If Christians weren't monotheistic, they wouldn't be Christians, since this is a central tent of faith of Christianity. Whether Trinitarianism is monotheistic or not depends on one's definition of monotheism, not on one's definition of Christianity. Fishhead64 17:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I have kept a distance to most of this banter about monotheism. Drogo, you have points, but you get to it by "twisting" NPOV to meet your personal objectives. Based upon your logic the article on Shiva would need to say he is a false god; Christians do not believe him to be a true god, ergo false god. Does that make any sense? Of course not. Quit being silly.
The concept of monotheism is a bedrock principle of Christianity; it is sacrosanct. Yes, monotheism can be defined in more depth in the article because it is more complex than that simple statement. There are diverse beliefs within Christianity regarding this issue. However, I believe all Christians believe they are monotheistic. This thread needs to stop; nothing more can be said or gained. I can't believe it has not already been said 50 ways to Sunday and still no progress has been made. I achived today and it is already ready to archive this unproductive discussion. If necessary vote on it and move forward. Otherwise, drop it and agree to disagree. Storm Rider (talk) 18:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
(2 edit conflicts)
Unfortunately, we do not seem to have Muslim editors working on this article. Couldn't we use some background on the proportion of Moslims who would disagree with the western-world/Christianity-centric definition of monotheism (which encompasses the main Christian POV)? What exactly are reliable sources on Islamic doctrine, and what is the degree of acceptance of such ideas as "Christianity is polytheistic"? I admit I don't know. Possibly superfluously, my point is that we should be aware of and try to prevent possible misunderstandings due to our systemic bias in combination readers that have been taught a different concept. In this case it is by no means necessary to include the term in the lead so we're free to leave it out.
FWIW, I do not believe that the POV of a different religion can ever define a religion, or that the mistranslation of an Arabic word can change the meaning of an English word in record time, linguistically speaking. Likewise, I would be surprised if any Christian criticisms would have a chance to be included in the lead of the Islam article of the Arabic Wikipedia. I'm not even sure it belongs in the body; to me the views one religion's adherents have on another religion belong in the article on the religion whose followers hold these views.
My summary of the problem: This is an English language encyclopedia explaining in English what makes Christians tick. We're struggling with the apparent fact that at least 1 billion potential readers may misunderstand/disagree with the word "monotheistic" if it isn't explained that their concept differs from the western one. AvB ÷ talk 18:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Please explain to me how it's ok to say "a form of monotheism called Trinitarianism." Does that not just call Trinitarianism monotheism, which was the whole point of contention in the first place? If Christians adhere to monotheism (whatever the form) they are monotheists by definition. If they believe there is one God, they are monotheists by definition. — Aiden 19:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
At the risk of rushing in "where angels fear to tread," I'd like to offer a few observations. First, let me say that I am a pastor of a mainline Christian denomination, complete with an M.Div. from an accredited and respected university. I just want people to know where I'm coming from. My own theology is very Trinitarian, and I consider myself to be monotheistic. I could talk about how the doctrine of the trinity arose (at least in part) from the need to reconcile strongly held monotheistic beliefs, with the equally strongly held belief that Jesus was both God and in some sense distinct from the Father. However, this sort of conversation has already been tried, and there is still no agreement.
Sometimes it helps to find a way to "put the shoe on the other foot", and I did this by looking at Jehovah's Witnesses and Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These are two groups who consider themselves to be Christian, but who are considered to be non-Christian by many (most?) mainline Christian churches.
It seems clear that, in each of these cases, there was some qualification of the group's "Christian-ness"--("who believe themselves", "who deem themselves"). Their belief is described as their belief, not as a simple fact. This seems to me to be directly analogous to we Trinitarian Christians, who "consider ourselves" to be monotheistic. We can argue endlessly about the definition of "Christian" or "Monotheistic". But in an encyclopedia article, it seems reasonable to use phrases like "believe themselves" or "consider themselves". - Rholton 22:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
You all are going around in circles. I do not think that Drogo is going to convince the majority nor the majority Drogo. So, please, folks, stop repeating the same arguments. Let's get the results of the vote, see if we have a consensus and then reflect it in the article, if we have one. -- CTSWyneken 18:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Folks, there's a vote on...
#Vote on How to Describe the Monontheism in Christianity Issue -- CTSWyneken 18:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I've contacted several Muslim editors whom I respect and hopefully they'll share their opinions with us on this matter. — Aiden 21:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
'And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)." '(29:46)
'They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah.'(57:73)
Q) Do Muslims view Christianity as tritheistic?
My Answer) I don’t think so. tritheistic says that :”Tritheism is the belief that there are three equally powerful gods who form a triad.” Muslims only believe that ‘’Christians’’ have exaggerated about Jesus in raising him to the position of the creator. Muslims, in my POV, do not see Christians believing in “three equally powerful gods who form a triad”. The Qur’an states that Jesus never claimed to be “God” (capital g) in the first place. The Qur’an a couple of times states that “trinity” is just a saying of Christians of which they have no knowledge. The Qur’an, on the Christian belief of “Jesus is God”, argues that Jesus said: “worship my lord and your lord”. Qur’an also states that “Christians say God (Allah, should refer to God the father) is one of the three”: Qur’an says that exceed not in your religion the bounds, there is no god but the one God; Christ by himself has no power either to harm or benefit people etc. That’s the conception of Muslims about Christians I think.
Q “Even if so, considering Christians still believe there is one God, are they still not monotheistic?
My Answer) Qur’an says:
"O People of the Book, commit no excesses in your religion; nor say of Allah anything but the truth. The Messiah Isa son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist! It will be better for you: for Allah is One: Glory be to Him! (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." (4:171)
Hope this helps -- Aminz 06:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your input, Bless sins, but can I point out that the question isn't whether or not Christians are right in thinking that the Trinity is One God. (Obviously, you wouldn't be a Moslem if you thought they were!) So I'm asking, not "Do Moslems accept that Christians worship one God?", but "Do Moslems accept that Christians believe that there is one God?" Cheers, AnnH ♫ 22:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
joturner and Bless sins, thanks for sharing your views which, I think, are quite informative. Perhaps you could also give some information regarding what would be considered generally accepted reliable (English language) sources on Islamic doctrine? I'm also interested in learning more about the relevance/notability of the source quoted by Drogo Underburrow: www.muhajabah.com/tawhid.htm. AvB ÷ talk 22:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Here's another Muslim source (thought I'd beat Drogo to it): The Trinity - a Muslim Perspective "One of the virtues of the Semitic type of consciousness is the conviction that ultimate reality must be ultimately simple, and that the Nicene talk of a deity with three persons, one of whom has two natures, but who are all somehow reducible to authentic unity, quite apart from being rationally dubious, seems intuitively wrong. God, the final ground of all being, surely does not need to be so complicated." Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 00:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd also like to thank the muslim editors making comments above, and I'd like to remind them that not all of Christianity adheres to the belief that Jesus is God Almighty. -- Oscillate 19:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd first of all like to thank the above editors for their comments. I think these comments illustrate the varying understandings of the definition of monotheism. Due to Muslims' rejection of the Trinity, they no doubt view it as something other than the Tawhid concept of the oneness of God. However, at the same time they recognize that Christians truly believe that there is one God, regardless of whether or not they're Trinitarian or Nontrinitarian. Based on the definition of monotheism and its hinging on belief, I feel it is perfectly fine to state Christianity is a monotheistic religion, although we should definitately mention Muslim (and Jewish) criticisms of the Trinity, which I believe is already done. Thus I recommend maintaining the status quo. — Aiden 15:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I didn't say that. I will say that this section is more about internal Wikipedia politics than about the issue. Drogo Underburrow 18:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
No, there is no need for that. We are not trying to prove that Christianity is not monotheistic, we only need to establish that some people dispute that it is monotheistic. We already have a reputable source, the Encyclopedia Britannica, which states, "According to Islamic doctrine the Christian dogma of a trinitarian god is a form of tritheism". Since this means its a matter of dispute whether Christianity is monotheistic or not, that is how we have to present it here, not as fact. Drogo Underburrow 18:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
It says that Constantine was trying to force everyone to accept the decrees of Nicea and took part in the council and so forth. While a popular notion, it is not true. Just a few years after the council he revoked Arius' excommunication, and deposed Athanasius, and just before he died to took properties from the Trinitarians and gave them to the Arians, and he stated his intent to restore Arius' bishopric the year he died. His son kept up good relations with the Arians. It also says that after Nicea the Gnostics and everybody else started to be called heretics and persecuted and so on, when in fact the apologists (aka, heresiologist) lived in the early-to-mid second-century. Other like errors follow. I'll clean it up and cite sources tomorrow. But if anyone else has the time, please help. » MonkeeSage « 23:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Before I make this addition, I want to know how people think it should be added in.
Source: Latourette, Kenneth Scott. "Christianity" incl. in Collier's Encyclopedia - 6: Charny to Colonie. New York: Macmillan Educational Company, 1990.
"Polytheistic mystery religions, centering in various Greek gods, were also widespread. All had to do with a god who had been killed by his enemies and raised from the dead. Their ceremonies were secret, and initiates were believed to share in the god's death and to acquire immortality through his ressurection." (p. 394)
I almost want to quote on, since the next sentence has my religion as its third word, but it's not relevant. But anyways, where should we add this information, and can we shorten some of the "According to Budge" stuff and make that into a much smaller sentence like I originally had that, so that this doesn't overwhelm the section?
I just noticed that the section is gone........ somehow.
The old version is:
We should look to shorten it without losing content. I'll make suggestions tomorrow myself.
BTW, once this is in line, I intend to write an article specifically on Osiris and the Ressurection.
You can't say Osiris was you can only say whom he said was. — Aiden 15:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
This may be helpful to consider since Pharaoh Ankhenaton is brought up.
Long ago, Judaism was henotheistic, not monotheistic. It changed. Drogo Underburrow 19:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I changed the references above to be "God" instead of "god". As per above, the Bible mentions other "gods" - beings in superior positions or power, but only one God Almighty. -- Oscillate 19:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not familiar with the term "Colab", but I suspect you mean "Kolob". It is found in the Pearl of Great Price, a Mormon book of scripture. Kolob is the name of the star closest to where God the Father resides. Beyond its proximity next the Father, it has no significance in Mormon theology. God the Father is the only God that resides there. Those outside of Mormonism have used the label henotheistic for Mormons, but for the term to be accurate it would have to mean that if there is any acknowledgement of any other gods. This definition is awfully loose and I suspect all people who study religions would be caught in that net. Hinduism is appropriately termed henotheistic; they don't just speak of other gods, they "know" there are other gods because a pantheon exists from which to choose.
KV, it am still searching the reference. I would never just spout off beliefs without having a reference. This article demands a higher level of scholarship, no? Storm Rider (talk) 17:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, this article is mostly "is" and History of Christianity is mostly "was." Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Father God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, are one, worship the Spirit, because God the Father is Spirit, Jesus Christ is the same Spirit, whom he recieved when he was baptised. "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me..". And The Holy Spirit lives in those who believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, who sits at the right side of the Father, yes this is the same Spirit in all, the Holy Spirit. Remember this, If you blaspheme against the Spirit "..you will never be forgiven..". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.209.97.34 ( talk • contribs)
You don't understand these things, although you think you do, but one day you will. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.209.97.34 ( talk • contribs)
Please note that talk pages are for discussing the article, not the subject of the article. What the Bible says and how it should logically be interpreted really isn't the issue here. -- Ashenai 15:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I've seen Alienus revert from God to god....... but I have to note that God is used when there is one, and only one.... if we were saying they were henotheistic and worshipped only one god, that would be proper capitalization. I know for myself, that when Budge talks about the monotheistic God of Egypt, he uses God....... when he speaks of one of it's aspects, such as Thoth, he says god. Though I appreciate the attempt towards NPOV, I don't think NPOV applies to that capitalization. Especially since it should then be linking to god (male deity) not god. KV 01:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I'll leave this to the native speakers (since in German we capitalize all nouns) except for this: KV's take seems to be right. If the article is talking about God in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic sense it should be "God", if it is God in the sense of other monotheistic religions or of a sort of the one divine origin behind all other gods it should be "God" too, if it is individual deities such as Toth or Mars it should be "god". However, KV, that doesn't change the problem with Egpytian monotheism we discussed elsewhere. Str1977 (smile back) 13:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted that no mention of purgatory appears in the Bible, whatsoever.
I think that phrase would be disputed by Catholics. 64.178.145.150 02:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the Unitarians, some of whom believe in Christ, have creeds that do not affirm ONE GOD per se. Certainly they disagree with the trinitarian view.
I believe that the Latter-day Saints have believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are separate.
Arian Churches (and there are some) consider Christ to be worthy of worship, but they rank him as inferior to God.
So these are a few examples you asked for. The worldwide "Body of Christ" has very little that it is unanimous on. Please revert back in recognition of this diversity. 64.178.145.150 02:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
LORD
is a substitution for
YHWH that properly belongs in the Bible the way God had it written. --
Oscillate
23:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
User:A.J.A., your statement reminds me of the Thomas' statment in John 20:28, "My Lord and my God". Here the doubting Thomas is made to understand that Jesus was the Christ, the risen Lord. What Thomas says is vitally important for all Christians. It is just as important as the Savior's question in the ninth hour on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?". (Matt. 27:46) I do not see a conflict between these "statement/question" and LDS doctrine or theology.
If your point is meant to argue what is true, this is not the place for it. I am more than happy to share thoughts on LDS concepts and beliefs, but if you are looking for a "your church is obviously wrong and mine is right" conversation, I am not interested. Storm Rider (talk) 07:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Returning for a moment to the original examples given: I believe that the Unitarians, some of whom believe in Christ, have creeds that do not affirm ONE GOD per se. Certainly they disagree with the trinitarian view. I believe that the Latter-day Saints have believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are separate. Arian Churches (and there are some) consider Christ to be worthy of worship, but they rank him as inferior to God
The unitarians originally emphasized the oneness of God, over and against their understanding of the Trinity. Today only 10% of unitarians consider themselves Christians; either of these two observations would be enough to remove them from consideration here. The LDS belief system looks sort of polytheistic to me and others, but to them it is not, so we need to acknowledge that they also emphasize belief in one Godhead just as trinitarians affirm belief in one God. The original Arians believed that Jesus was a highly exalted but created being, separate from God; they did not believe he was equal with God or that he was another god. I'm not sure what modern Arian churches were meant, but I doubt that they or any other Christian sect would explicitly name more than one god whom they worship; as yet, no credible examples have been given as far as I can tell. Wesley 22:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with Wesley. Str1977 (smile back) 09:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems highly unusual to have references in the lead in. After all, the lead in is just a condensed version of the article, and presumably, any point in the lead in will be covered properly in the article itself. joshbuddy talk 21:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I have revised the two section "Beliefs" and "Differences in Beliefs" in line with my Talk comments above. The revision is at User:A.J.A./Tohu&Bohu/Beliefs. A.J.A. 03:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The actual size of this article, as determined by copying the article, including image text and [edit] buttons, but missing the templates, references, see also, and external link sections as well as any wikiformatting, which I considered the actual article a viewer will read, and then saving it as a .txt file, is 35 kb. Wikipedia suggests 30-50 kb for a featured article, so we can have up to 15 kb more, just for the record. KV 21:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. The most common way to save articles to your computer is IMO to save the HTML without the pictures. This currently results in a file of 132 KB. Just for the record. Str1977 (smile back) 09:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Once again, this heavily vandalized page has been semi-protected to eliminate random repeating vandalisms by anons. If anyone disagrees with this, let me know.-- MONGO 08:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Unless the editor who placed this posts here pretty fast to explain why it should be removed. I can't see anything more major than the usual differences of opinion - have I missed some big bust up? Sophia 22:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok... why is this page up for deletion... just another forum of vandalism I guess? Pure inuyasha 23:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
umm.. no. you're just trying to downplay christiany on wikipedia. utter POV and vandalism. shame on you. Pure inuyasha 23:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This isn't a propaganda article. if this is then a heck of a lot of articles here are propaganda. I could argue that the article on switzerland is propaganda using your logic. Pure inuyasha 00:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Nevermind, this guys blocked now. he was spamming the articles on atheism, satanism and satan for support for the deletion... quite sad really... Pure inuyasha 00:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Perhaps we should finally finish arguing over monotheism and moonism? We have too much else to do to fight over one word. I'm compiling the other suggestions so they don't get drowned out by the monotheism-tritheism rollercoaster: Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to distract you all from arguing about monotheism for a bit to suggest a little reorganization.
The two sections "Beliefs" and "Differences in Beliefs" should become one section simply called "Beliefs", with the following organization:
This puts everything in a neater, more organized form, avoids stub-sections, and eliminates the awkwardly-titled section "Differences in Beliefs". A.J.A. 16:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's not forget there are still three statements with "citation needed" tags. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi all, Unforunately I have not promoted this article because of problems with certain sections of the article.
The Beliefs section is of particular concern. Many of the subsections in it are single sentences. This is itself a stylistic concern, but I also worry some of the explainations are overly terse and do not present their subject in sufficient depth. The Second Coming subsection is especially terse and seems to side-step much of the detail mentioned in related articles such as Christian eschatology.
The Differences in beliefs section is good. The Worship and practices section could probably be stated in a more concise manner (especially the subsections). The History section is fine. The last paragraph of the Persecution section on persecution by Christians could probably be dropped. The Controversies section could probably be expanded slightly although by that I do not mean it should become a long list of controversies.
Overall, parts of the article feel they were designed by committee. A really good encyclopedia article should not just state facts but offer insight into its subject. Don't be afraid to leave out minor points if it allows you to offer better insight into the core subject of the article.
I hope this helps and please feel free to resubmit the article for nomination in the future. Cedars 16:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Folks, we are wandering again. Can we set aside the section and talk the introduction alone?
Let me recap what we have:
For the first paragraph, that leaves us with:
Drogo quoted from, Encyclopedia Britannic above:
There appears to be a typo in the quote. Is it saying that "it's tritheism-monotheism"?
Also, Britannica does not say that Christianity isn't monotheism, but attributes this assertion to "Islamic doctrine", which isn't a reliable - or verifiable - source on Christianity. We still have not one dead-on assertion from of the sort seen in multiple sources on the other side. Timothy Usher 19:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
No religion has interpreted monotheism in a more consequential and literal way than Islam. According to Islamic doctrine the Christian dogma of a trinitarian god is a form of tritheism—of a three-god belief. There is no issue upon which this religion is so intransigent as the one of monotheism. The profession of faith, the first of the so-called Five Pillars of Islam (the basic requirements for the faithful Muslim), states clearly and unambiguously that “there is no God but Allah,” and in accordance with this principle the religion knows no greater sin than shirk (“partnership”), the attribution of partners to Allah; that is to say, polytheism, or anything that may look like it—e.g., the notion of a divine trinity. The Qur'an declares: “Say: He, Allah, is one. Allah, the eternal. Neither has he begotten, nor is he begotten. And no one is his equal” (112). This profession of faith in Allah as the one god is encountered in a more popular form, for example, in the stories of The Thousand and One Nights: “There is no god except Allah alone, he has no companions, to him belongs the power and he is to be praised, he gives life and death and he is mighty over all things.” In only one respect has the uncompromising monotheism of Islam shown itself to be vulnerable; i.e., in the doctrine of the Qur'an as uncreated and coeval with Allah himself.
From the encyclopedia britannica online. I thought I would copy the entire section for those without access, I think this is ok. Drogo Underburrow 19:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, and that's why I linked the word "geometry" to the article on the Shield. The image is public domain, so I may as well include it (pardon the Latin):
Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 04:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Although Catholics and Protestants believe in the Son of God (Jesus) redeeming mankind, this would have to be one of the only primary beliefs shared by the two. I believe there should be a very clear distinction between Catholics and Protestants. Catholics believe in the virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, and spouse of the Holy Spirit. They believe that she guides people on the right path, whether appearing in dreams, visions or the like - Protestants oppose this. They experience stigmata, (the supernatural bleeding of hands and feet) - something that Protestants oppose. Catholics also believe that they need to repent to a priest for their sins, that there will be a necessary spiritual cleansing in Purgatory before reaching heaven, they pray to Mary, and they pray to saints. Protestants oppose this. Protestants believe that because Jesus died for our sins,they believe they don't need to go to Purgatory (they are already forgiven when they repent) therefore they don't need to repent to a priest (only to Jesus), they do not believe that Mary can help them, neither can the "saints" because they were ordinary people and they believe don't have the ability to come back to earth to help (God is there to help, not saints or Mary). There are many, many more huge distinctions between the two beliefs. I think that from the very beginning of this article, there should be a very clear and accurate passage stating the major differences between Catholicism and Protestants - (eg. Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans... and so on). Catholicism is much more seperate than any other demoninations. If you would like me to do a lot of research on the differences between Catholocism and Protestans, I would be happy to. Thanks for your time.
Historian Joshua 01:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)Historian Joshua
Why is it that simple improvements get reverted over a wording quible? Why does everything have to be pulling teeth?
I'm putting the pictures back. Watch, they'll be taken out again. A.J.A. 21:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Touché! Sophia 21:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm finding this conversation absolutely ridiculous.
As far as I can tell the definitions are being applied this.
Several times I've brought up the example that under this definition Zeus worshippers and Hindus are monotheistic. No one is refuting it since after all it agrees with the OED. OK so I typed at command prompt on my mac say "I believe in one god" and wow my laptop now is a monotheist! And if you object to this tell me how it is any different than the arguments above? What is true of the definition being applied that isn't true of my laptop? I asked before and I didn't get an answer. If we are going to define monotheism this weakly then why mention it at all? Why is it not like "Christianity is a religion practiced exclusively by mammals"? jbolden1517 Talk 22:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
To quote some articles on wikipedia Monotheism#Comparison_to_polytheism_and_dualism, Soft polytheism, or getting weaker Henotheism, Monolatrism, Kathenotheism. jbolden1517 Talk 01:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Jbolden1517 said that a definition being applied was "Person X is a monotheist if they believe in one god." As I have said, again and again, the definition is the belief that there is one God, not belief in on God. "Believe in" carries a stronger meaning than "believe that there is", as it can (though doesn't have to) imply a certain amount of faith and trust, which goes far beyond the simple "believe in the existence of". The Nicene Creed has "I believe in" when the object of the belief is the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit. But for other Christian beliefs (Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, baptism, forgiveness of sins, resurrection of the dead, and life everlasting), it doens't use "in".
Oh well, if I go to bed now, will I find when I wake up, that the debate carried on throughout the night as to whether Christians truly worship one God in their practice? AnnH ♫ 00:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
To to expand upon Jbolden's comments, henotheism is the belief that a pantheon of gods exist, but one worships only one among them; this is found in Hinduism today (it sure sounds like ancient Roman and Greek religious constructs). Modalism is the strict belief in one god; it is nontrinitarian. There was no three distinct persons in the Trinity, just God the Father. It is a bit complicated after that. Some might remember Sabellian who proffered this concept strongly. Monotheism is obviously more complicated than we may have thought. I do believe that we are so ingrained to believe that all Christians are monotheists that it is difficult to conceive of any other term applying to our personal beliefs than monotheism. Regardless, I am ready to see this ended. Are Christians monotheists? Yes, most definitely. Do other labels apply? Yes, it just depends on the person and the church discussed. Storm Rider (talk) 01:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
To answer jbolden's original comment: It is absolutely ridiculous, or at the very least absurdist. There seem to be two factions with two different operational definitions of "monotheism." To wit:
Now, has been noted, the second faction is debating not only other editors, but with dictionaries both English and Greek. The first faction is using the English language, as described by various dictionaries. The second faction has gone Through the Looking Glass and joined up with Humpty Dumpty:
No one is disputing that the Trinity is unique among Abrahamic monotheisitic relgions. There is no reason not to say so in the article. Does that mean that Christianity is not monotheistic? No, because the word "monotheism" has a more general meaning, the first definition given above. There are other, perfectly good English words that have the second definition, which is after all a subset of the first definition. Of course, if the second faction wishes to join Alice on her adventures, they are free to do so; just don't confuse Humpty Dumpty language with English. Remember, too, that all the King's horses and all the King's men are waiting for you to fall. On this side of the glass, "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument," and monotheism ("mono" one + "theos" god) simply means "Belief that there is only one God." Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 03:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
According to Islam, as the article in Encyclopedia Britannica attests, Christians believe in three gods. Therefore, whether Christianity is monotheistic or not, is disputed. In matters that are disputed, Wikipedia articles cannot pick who is right. Therefore, it is wrong to state as a fact that Christians believe in one God. What they believe is a matter of who you ask, and should be presented as such in the article. Monotheism is indeed defined by the dictionary as believing in one God; whether Christians do believe this is disputed, with the core tenet of Islam saying that they do not believe this. Drogo Underburrow 07:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's look at the Oxford definition again:
We can debate the nature of belief until protons decay and never make any progress on the article, since we cannot read minds. But look at the other side of the definition: is it Christian doctrine that there is only one God? Absolutely. That, by definition, is monotheism. Chrisitianity teaches the doctrine that there is only one God. Therefore, Christianity is a form of monotheism. Therefore, Christianity is monotheistic.
If anyone doubts this statement, I can easily show you the doctrine. Remember, too, that the definition is "doctrine or belief," not "doctrine and belief." The long debates over the nature of belief are essentially meaningless. Christianity is monotheism by doctrine. That is sufficient. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 08:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
AnnH, what you say is not true, but I'm not going to discuss what should be discussed on the Hitler talk page here, nor am I going to reply to your ad hominem arguments. Muslims believe, according to the EB that Christianity is not monotheistic, but tritheistic, therefore it is not a fact that Christianity is monotheistic, but a matter under dispute. Therefore this article is guilty of taking a matter under dispute and asserting it as fact when it says "Christianity is a monotheistic religion...." Drogo Underburrow 09:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Drogo: "The EB is a reputable, scholarly source. If this is not accepted as a case of a source stating that according to Muslim belief Christianity is not monotheistic, then I'm afraid that people simply refuse to see what they do not want to see." - yes, it is a reputable source. But what does it say? It says Muslims believe so-and-so. So (although I am quite certain this is a misrepresentation of the most learned Muslim belief) it can be cited as a source for Muslim belief, as in the controversies section.
What it doesn't say is that Christianity isn't monotheistic. It says that a generic third party doesn't believe it to be. And what you need to meet WP:V isn't a source that says someone else believes it's not - as that doesn't establish that second-hand someone as a reliable source, even when the reporting source (EB) is - but a reputable source that says so itself. Compare the pro sources - they don't say, so-and-so believes Christianity to be monotheistic, but rather, on their own authority that it is monotheistic. Timothy Usher 10:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I'll say again that the definition of monotheism is "The doctrine or belief that there is only one God (as opposed to many, as in polytheism)." Notice it's "doctrine or belief," not "doctrine, also belief" as Giovanni took it. The word "also" never appears in the definition.
There are two kinds of "or." Exclusive or is satistified by either of the following:
Inclusive or is satisified by any of the following:
It can be the last one, but it doesn't have to be. By either definition, doctrine is enough to satisfy "doctrine or belief." What makes any religion monothestic—whether that religion is Judaism, Samaritanism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai, Zoroastrianism or any other—is the doctrine that there is only one God. We cannot read beliefs, which exist in the mind. We can read doctrines. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 10:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's get back to Giovanni's point. I have a few questions for him:
Folks, all of this is beside the point. What do the sources say?
Second, this is a passionate discussion because, for Christians, monotheism is a central doctrine, upom which Christians base much of their doctrine. If you question that, you are challenging their faith. Consider how Muslims would feel if the critique of some Christians that Sufis are panthesist or that the observation that the Angel of the Lord speaks as if he were God in Exodus 3 makes them bitheists.
I'm not sure why this is a big deal for non-Christians, however, but it must be for some reason, or we would not have this debate. I don't understand why they care what Christians believe.
So, back to what we have. We have several sources that point blank call Christianity monotheistic, one that says some Muslims question this. How do we do this, practically speaking? Can we start with new proposals to these facts on the ground? -- CTSWyneken 11:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I am really appalled at the rhetoric being used here. I will repeat for those who may not see it in the mass of verbiage on this page:
According to Islamic doctrine the Christian dogma of a trinitarian god is a form of tritheism—of a three-god belief. - from the Encyclopedia Britannica
So AnnH, you called Islamic doctrine "the Humpty-Dumpty" side? You called the Encyclopedia Britannica "the Humpty-Dumpty" side? How interesting.
Now, on the issue of having the word "monotheism" in the intro, there is no special reason to have it there. The Encyclopedia Britannica does not have the word in the intro to its article. Here is the intro from the EB article:
Christianity - major religion, stemming from the life, teachings, and death of Jesus of Nazareth (the Christ, or the Anointed One of God) in the 1st century AD. It has become the largest of the world's religions. Geographically the most widely diffused of all faiths, it has a constituency of some 2 billion believers. Its largest groups are the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, and the Protestant churches; in addition to these churches there are several independent churches of Eastern Christianity as well as numerous sects throughout the world. See also Eastern Orthodoxy; Roman Catholicism; and Protestantism.
This article first considers the nature and development of the Christian religion, its ideas, and its institutions. This is followed by an examination of several intellectual manifestations of Christianity. Finally, the position of Christianity in the world, the relations among its divisions and denominations, its missionary outreach to other peoples, and its relations with other world religions are discussed. For supporting material on various topics, see biblical literature; doctrine and dogma; Jesus Christ; sacred; worship; prayer; creed; sacrament; religious dress; monasticism; and priesthood.
No one is saying that all Muslims believe anything. But we have an authoritative source that says what Muslim doctrine is; and it is very clear that we are discussing a central doctrine of that religion. We can either change the intro to make it clear who is speaking, or we can eliminate the word "monotheism" from the intro. But it is a NPOV violation to state the Christian version of things as a fact in the intro. Drogo Underburrow 13:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, you are the one that isn't following the discussion, not I. It is Muslim doctrine, according to the EB, that Christians believe in three gods, not one; hence the statement "Christianity is monotheistic" is being challenged, and cannot be stated as fact. It is being disputed what Christians believe. Drogo Underburrow 14:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
How we mention that Christianity is a monotheistic religion in paragraph One?
This "poll" is inherantly biased, stating that the dictionary agrees with one of the choices. It doesn't, but stating that it does makes the poll results invalid. Furthermore, this issue involves NPOV, which is not subject to voting. Editors cannot vote that an article violate NPOV. Drogo Underburrow 15:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I was not voting yes, I was protesting against the poll Drogo Underburrow 20:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
This has been done. Thank you, Aiden. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 15:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Can somebody fill me in briefly what the main dispute is here? From what I can see it is over the inclusion of monotheism in the lead, right? With some saying that since some people say it isn't monotheism, it shouldn't be included, right? As of this timestamp, what is wrong with the issue? It seems like it is handled appropriately. Thanks. -- You Know Who (Dark Mark) 14:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I used to believe as you do. But then I saw that Muslims say that Christianity is not monotheistic. So, even if I believe that it is, because it fits the dictionary definition, that doesn't matter. Muslims say its not monotheistic. Maybe Muslims don't know what the dictionary says. It doesn't matter. They say its not monotheistic, and that is all that counts. Its not up to us to decide that the Muslim view is unreasonable or wrong, or misguided or misinformed. Drogo Underburrow 15:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Lord Voldemort, no one is saying to put in the article that Christianity IS NOT monotheistic. What I object to is saying that it IS monotheistic. We have to stay neutral, saying neither one. Instead, we state that Christians believe that their religion is monotheistic, and other religions, such as Islam, disagree. Drogo Underburrow 16:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Scroll up on the page, I copied the entire section from the EB. I assure your Muslim friend I am not a polytheist, and ask him not to insult me, as coming from a Muslim that is being very insulting, Muslims consider polytheists to be grave sinners and think its ok to do all sorts of bad things to them, like kill them. Drogo Underburrow 16:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Lord Voldemort, the article cannot state it as a fact that Jesus was divine. The article must simply state that Christians believe he was divine. The article cannot state as a fact that Jesus existed. It can only state that the vast majority of scholars assume he existed in some form. The article cannot state as a fact that he died on the cross; it can only state that the Gospels say he did. etc, etc. Drogo Underburrow 16:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Christian editors are being very unreasonable on this issue. Here's why: they want the article to state as the very first thing their POV as a fact, that they are monotheists, and shunt to the end of the article a statement that disagrees, expressed as only an opinion. Drogo Underburrow 16:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Drogo:
But most important of all:
Okay, Drogo has a point. Let's rewrite this entire article. Here are some things that the article needs to change:
Okay, so I've broken down the first three sentences... So perhaps they should read: Christianity is an alleged monotheistic so-called religion centered somewhat on the life and some of teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, if he really existed which may not be true, as recounted in the anonymously authored and highly specious New Testament. Some Christians believe "Jesus" to be the Messiah, if one exists, and thus refer to him sometimes as "Jesus Christ", as well as "guy", "dude", and "liberal". With an estimated 2.1 billion so-called adherents in the "Christian" calendar year of 2001, Christianity is the world's largest "religion" (not counting the invisible beings that are present at all times).
Sound good? Anyone else wanna help break down the rest? Yes, I'm trying to make a point (no, not a WP:POINT). This is an encyclopedia. We describe things. We give them the best possible description and explanation as possible. The best possible description of what Christians believe is "monotheism". We do give critics of this view some time in the article, but we don't change the entire thing just because some disagree with what Christians hold true. -- You Know Who (Dark Mark) 16:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Christianity is a religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recounted in the New Testament. Christians believe Jesus to be the Messiah, and thus refer to him as Jesus Christ. With an estimated 2.1 billion adherents in 2001, Christianity is the world's largest religion.
Drogo, according to the EB, Muslims doctrine states that Christianity is a form of tritheism. According to an actual Muslim, Christians mischaracterize Muslim objections as a charge of tritheism. Are you saying that the EB is right and actual Muslims are wrong about what Muslims believe?
If you are going to cite Muslim doctrine, it is better to cite Muslims than to cite the EB. The EB is, plain and simple, not Muslim doctrine. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 17:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Given that faith traditions frequently argue against the claims of competing faith traditions, where does this Pandora's box end? Again, I implore, take the discussion to Trinitarianism or monotheism, and just use this article to describe what Christianity is. It claims to be monotheistic. If Christians weren't monotheistic, they wouldn't be Christians, since this is a central tent of faith of Christianity. Whether Trinitarianism is monotheistic or not depends on one's definition of monotheism, not on one's definition of Christianity. Fishhead64 17:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I have kept a distance to most of this banter about monotheism. Drogo, you have points, but you get to it by "twisting" NPOV to meet your personal objectives. Based upon your logic the article on Shiva would need to say he is a false god; Christians do not believe him to be a true god, ergo false god. Does that make any sense? Of course not. Quit being silly.
The concept of monotheism is a bedrock principle of Christianity; it is sacrosanct. Yes, monotheism can be defined in more depth in the article because it is more complex than that simple statement. There are diverse beliefs within Christianity regarding this issue. However, I believe all Christians believe they are monotheistic. This thread needs to stop; nothing more can be said or gained. I can't believe it has not already been said 50 ways to Sunday and still no progress has been made. I achived today and it is already ready to archive this unproductive discussion. If necessary vote on it and move forward. Otherwise, drop it and agree to disagree. Storm Rider (talk) 18:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
(2 edit conflicts)
Unfortunately, we do not seem to have Muslim editors working on this article. Couldn't we use some background on the proportion of Moslims who would disagree with the western-world/Christianity-centric definition of monotheism (which encompasses the main Christian POV)? What exactly are reliable sources on Islamic doctrine, and what is the degree of acceptance of such ideas as "Christianity is polytheistic"? I admit I don't know. Possibly superfluously, my point is that we should be aware of and try to prevent possible misunderstandings due to our systemic bias in combination readers that have been taught a different concept. In this case it is by no means necessary to include the term in the lead so we're free to leave it out.
FWIW, I do not believe that the POV of a different religion can ever define a religion, or that the mistranslation of an Arabic word can change the meaning of an English word in record time, linguistically speaking. Likewise, I would be surprised if any Christian criticisms would have a chance to be included in the lead of the Islam article of the Arabic Wikipedia. I'm not even sure it belongs in the body; to me the views one religion's adherents have on another religion belong in the article on the religion whose followers hold these views.
My summary of the problem: This is an English language encyclopedia explaining in English what makes Christians tick. We're struggling with the apparent fact that at least 1 billion potential readers may misunderstand/disagree with the word "monotheistic" if it isn't explained that their concept differs from the western one. AvB ÷ talk 18:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Please explain to me how it's ok to say "a form of monotheism called Trinitarianism." Does that not just call Trinitarianism monotheism, which was the whole point of contention in the first place? If Christians adhere to monotheism (whatever the form) they are monotheists by definition. If they believe there is one God, they are monotheists by definition. — Aiden 19:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
At the risk of rushing in "where angels fear to tread," I'd like to offer a few observations. First, let me say that I am a pastor of a mainline Christian denomination, complete with an M.Div. from an accredited and respected university. I just want people to know where I'm coming from. My own theology is very Trinitarian, and I consider myself to be monotheistic. I could talk about how the doctrine of the trinity arose (at least in part) from the need to reconcile strongly held monotheistic beliefs, with the equally strongly held belief that Jesus was both God and in some sense distinct from the Father. However, this sort of conversation has already been tried, and there is still no agreement.
Sometimes it helps to find a way to "put the shoe on the other foot", and I did this by looking at Jehovah's Witnesses and Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. These are two groups who consider themselves to be Christian, but who are considered to be non-Christian by many (most?) mainline Christian churches.
It seems clear that, in each of these cases, there was some qualification of the group's "Christian-ness"--("who believe themselves", "who deem themselves"). Their belief is described as their belief, not as a simple fact. This seems to me to be directly analogous to we Trinitarian Christians, who "consider ourselves" to be monotheistic. We can argue endlessly about the definition of "Christian" or "Monotheistic". But in an encyclopedia article, it seems reasonable to use phrases like "believe themselves" or "consider themselves". - Rholton 22:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
You all are going around in circles. I do not think that Drogo is going to convince the majority nor the majority Drogo. So, please, folks, stop repeating the same arguments. Let's get the results of the vote, see if we have a consensus and then reflect it in the article, if we have one. -- CTSWyneken 18:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Folks, there's a vote on...
#Vote on How to Describe the Monontheism in Christianity Issue -- CTSWyneken 18:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
I've contacted several Muslim editors whom I respect and hopefully they'll share their opinions with us on this matter. — Aiden 21:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
'And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)." '(29:46)
'They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah.'(57:73)
Q) Do Muslims view Christianity as tritheistic?
My Answer) I don’t think so. tritheistic says that :”Tritheism is the belief that there are three equally powerful gods who form a triad.” Muslims only believe that ‘’Christians’’ have exaggerated about Jesus in raising him to the position of the creator. Muslims, in my POV, do not see Christians believing in “three equally powerful gods who form a triad”. The Qur’an states that Jesus never claimed to be “God” (capital g) in the first place. The Qur’an a couple of times states that “trinity” is just a saying of Christians of which they have no knowledge. The Qur’an, on the Christian belief of “Jesus is God”, argues that Jesus said: “worship my lord and your lord”. Qur’an also states that “Christians say God (Allah, should refer to God the father) is one of the three”: Qur’an says that exceed not in your religion the bounds, there is no god but the one God; Christ by himself has no power either to harm or benefit people etc. That’s the conception of Muslims about Christians I think.
Q “Even if so, considering Christians still believe there is one God, are they still not monotheistic?
My Answer) Qur’an says:
"O People of the Book, commit no excesses in your religion; nor say of Allah anything but the truth. The Messiah Isa son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist! It will be better for you: for Allah is One: Glory be to Him! (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs." (4:171)
Hope this helps -- Aminz 06:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your input, Bless sins, but can I point out that the question isn't whether or not Christians are right in thinking that the Trinity is One God. (Obviously, you wouldn't be a Moslem if you thought they were!) So I'm asking, not "Do Moslems accept that Christians worship one God?", but "Do Moslems accept that Christians believe that there is one God?" Cheers, AnnH ♫ 22:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
joturner and Bless sins, thanks for sharing your views which, I think, are quite informative. Perhaps you could also give some information regarding what would be considered generally accepted reliable (English language) sources on Islamic doctrine? I'm also interested in learning more about the relevance/notability of the source quoted by Drogo Underburrow: www.muhajabah.com/tawhid.htm. AvB ÷ talk 22:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Here's another Muslim source (thought I'd beat Drogo to it): The Trinity - a Muslim Perspective "One of the virtues of the Semitic type of consciousness is the conviction that ultimate reality must be ultimately simple, and that the Nicene talk of a deity with three persons, one of whom has two natures, but who are all somehow reducible to authentic unity, quite apart from being rationally dubious, seems intuitively wrong. God, the final ground of all being, surely does not need to be so complicated." Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 00:14, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd also like to thank the muslim editors making comments above, and I'd like to remind them that not all of Christianity adheres to the belief that Jesus is God Almighty. -- Oscillate 19:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd first of all like to thank the above editors for their comments. I think these comments illustrate the varying understandings of the definition of monotheism. Due to Muslims' rejection of the Trinity, they no doubt view it as something other than the Tawhid concept of the oneness of God. However, at the same time they recognize that Christians truly believe that there is one God, regardless of whether or not they're Trinitarian or Nontrinitarian. Based on the definition of monotheism and its hinging on belief, I feel it is perfectly fine to state Christianity is a monotheistic religion, although we should definitately mention Muslim (and Jewish) criticisms of the Trinity, which I believe is already done. Thus I recommend maintaining the status quo. — Aiden 15:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I didn't say that. I will say that this section is more about internal Wikipedia politics than about the issue. Drogo Underburrow 18:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
No, there is no need for that. We are not trying to prove that Christianity is not monotheistic, we only need to establish that some people dispute that it is monotheistic. We already have a reputable source, the Encyclopedia Britannica, which states, "According to Islamic doctrine the Christian dogma of a trinitarian god is a form of tritheism". Since this means its a matter of dispute whether Christianity is monotheistic or not, that is how we have to present it here, not as fact. Drogo Underburrow 18:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
It says that Constantine was trying to force everyone to accept the decrees of Nicea and took part in the council and so forth. While a popular notion, it is not true. Just a few years after the council he revoked Arius' excommunication, and deposed Athanasius, and just before he died to took properties from the Trinitarians and gave them to the Arians, and he stated his intent to restore Arius' bishopric the year he died. His son kept up good relations with the Arians. It also says that after Nicea the Gnostics and everybody else started to be called heretics and persecuted and so on, when in fact the apologists (aka, heresiologist) lived in the early-to-mid second-century. Other like errors follow. I'll clean it up and cite sources tomorrow. But if anyone else has the time, please help. » MonkeeSage « 23:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Before I make this addition, I want to know how people think it should be added in.
Source: Latourette, Kenneth Scott. "Christianity" incl. in Collier's Encyclopedia - 6: Charny to Colonie. New York: Macmillan Educational Company, 1990.
"Polytheistic mystery religions, centering in various Greek gods, were also widespread. All had to do with a god who had been killed by his enemies and raised from the dead. Their ceremonies were secret, and initiates were believed to share in the god's death and to acquire immortality through his ressurection." (p. 394)
I almost want to quote on, since the next sentence has my religion as its third word, but it's not relevant. But anyways, where should we add this information, and can we shorten some of the "According to Budge" stuff and make that into a much smaller sentence like I originally had that, so that this doesn't overwhelm the section?
I just noticed that the section is gone........ somehow.
The old version is:
We should look to shorten it without losing content. I'll make suggestions tomorrow myself.
BTW, once this is in line, I intend to write an article specifically on Osiris and the Ressurection.
You can't say Osiris was you can only say whom he said was. — Aiden 15:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
This may be helpful to consider since Pharaoh Ankhenaton is brought up.
Long ago, Judaism was henotheistic, not monotheistic. It changed. Drogo Underburrow 19:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I changed the references above to be "God" instead of "god". As per above, the Bible mentions other "gods" - beings in superior positions or power, but only one God Almighty. -- Oscillate 19:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not familiar with the term "Colab", but I suspect you mean "Kolob". It is found in the Pearl of Great Price, a Mormon book of scripture. Kolob is the name of the star closest to where God the Father resides. Beyond its proximity next the Father, it has no significance in Mormon theology. God the Father is the only God that resides there. Those outside of Mormonism have used the label henotheistic for Mormons, but for the term to be accurate it would have to mean that if there is any acknowledgement of any other gods. This definition is awfully loose and I suspect all people who study religions would be caught in that net. Hinduism is appropriately termed henotheistic; they don't just speak of other gods, they "know" there are other gods because a pantheon exists from which to choose.
KV, it am still searching the reference. I would never just spout off beliefs without having a reference. This article demands a higher level of scholarship, no? Storm Rider (talk) 17:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, this article is mostly "is" and History of Christianity is mostly "was." Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Father God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, are one, worship the Spirit, because God the Father is Spirit, Jesus Christ is the same Spirit, whom he recieved when he was baptised. "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me..". And The Holy Spirit lives in those who believe Jesus Christ is the son of God, who sits at the right side of the Father, yes this is the same Spirit in all, the Holy Spirit. Remember this, If you blaspheme against the Spirit "..you will never be forgiven..". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.209.97.34 ( talk • contribs)
You don't understand these things, although you think you do, but one day you will. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.209.97.34 ( talk • contribs)
Please note that talk pages are for discussing the article, not the subject of the article. What the Bible says and how it should logically be interpreted really isn't the issue here. -- Ashenai 15:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I've seen Alienus revert from God to god....... but I have to note that God is used when there is one, and only one.... if we were saying they were henotheistic and worshipped only one god, that would be proper capitalization. I know for myself, that when Budge talks about the monotheistic God of Egypt, he uses God....... when he speaks of one of it's aspects, such as Thoth, he says god. Though I appreciate the attempt towards NPOV, I don't think NPOV applies to that capitalization. Especially since it should then be linking to god (male deity) not god. KV 01:06, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I'll leave this to the native speakers (since in German we capitalize all nouns) except for this: KV's take seems to be right. If the article is talking about God in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic sense it should be "God", if it is God in the sense of other monotheistic religions or of a sort of the one divine origin behind all other gods it should be "God" too, if it is individual deities such as Toth or Mars it should be "god". However, KV, that doesn't change the problem with Egpytian monotheism we discussed elsewhere. Str1977 (smile back) 13:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
It should be noted that no mention of purgatory appears in the Bible, whatsoever.
I think that phrase would be disputed by Catholics. 64.178.145.150 02:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the Unitarians, some of whom believe in Christ, have creeds that do not affirm ONE GOD per se. Certainly they disagree with the trinitarian view.
I believe that the Latter-day Saints have believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are separate.
Arian Churches (and there are some) consider Christ to be worthy of worship, but they rank him as inferior to God.
So these are a few examples you asked for. The worldwide "Body of Christ" has very little that it is unanimous on. Please revert back in recognition of this diversity. 64.178.145.150 02:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
LORD
is a substitution for
YHWH that properly belongs in the Bible the way God had it written. --
Oscillate
23:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
User:A.J.A., your statement reminds me of the Thomas' statment in John 20:28, "My Lord and my God". Here the doubting Thomas is made to understand that Jesus was the Christ, the risen Lord. What Thomas says is vitally important for all Christians. It is just as important as the Savior's question in the ninth hour on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?". (Matt. 27:46) I do not see a conflict between these "statement/question" and LDS doctrine or theology.
If your point is meant to argue what is true, this is not the place for it. I am more than happy to share thoughts on LDS concepts and beliefs, but if you are looking for a "your church is obviously wrong and mine is right" conversation, I am not interested. Storm Rider (talk) 07:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Returning for a moment to the original examples given: I believe that the Unitarians, some of whom believe in Christ, have creeds that do not affirm ONE GOD per se. Certainly they disagree with the trinitarian view. I believe that the Latter-day Saints have believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are separate. Arian Churches (and there are some) consider Christ to be worthy of worship, but they rank him as inferior to God
The unitarians originally emphasized the oneness of God, over and against their understanding of the Trinity. Today only 10% of unitarians consider themselves Christians; either of these two observations would be enough to remove them from consideration here. The LDS belief system looks sort of polytheistic to me and others, but to them it is not, so we need to acknowledge that they also emphasize belief in one Godhead just as trinitarians affirm belief in one God. The original Arians believed that Jesus was a highly exalted but created being, separate from God; they did not believe he was equal with God or that he was another god. I'm not sure what modern Arian churches were meant, but I doubt that they or any other Christian sect would explicitly name more than one god whom they worship; as yet, no credible examples have been given as far as I can tell. Wesley 22:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree with Wesley. Str1977 (smile back) 09:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
It seems highly unusual to have references in the lead in. After all, the lead in is just a condensed version of the article, and presumably, any point in the lead in will be covered properly in the article itself. joshbuddy talk 21:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I have revised the two section "Beliefs" and "Differences in Beliefs" in line with my Talk comments above. The revision is at User:A.J.A./Tohu&Bohu/Beliefs. A.J.A. 03:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
The actual size of this article, as determined by copying the article, including image text and [edit] buttons, but missing the templates, references, see also, and external link sections as well as any wikiformatting, which I considered the actual article a viewer will read, and then saving it as a .txt file, is 35 kb. Wikipedia suggests 30-50 kb for a featured article, so we can have up to 15 kb more, just for the record. KV 21:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. The most common way to save articles to your computer is IMO to save the HTML without the pictures. This currently results in a file of 132 KB. Just for the record. Str1977 (smile back) 09:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Once again, this heavily vandalized page has been semi-protected to eliminate random repeating vandalisms by anons. If anyone disagrees with this, let me know.-- MONGO 08:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Unless the editor who placed this posts here pretty fast to explain why it should be removed. I can't see anything more major than the usual differences of opinion - have I missed some big bust up? Sophia 22:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok... why is this page up for deletion... just another forum of vandalism I guess? Pure inuyasha 23:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
umm.. no. you're just trying to downplay christiany on wikipedia. utter POV and vandalism. shame on you. Pure inuyasha 23:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
This isn't a propaganda article. if this is then a heck of a lot of articles here are propaganda. I could argue that the article on switzerland is propaganda using your logic. Pure inuyasha 00:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Nevermind, this guys blocked now. he was spamming the articles on atheism, satanism and satan for support for the deletion... quite sad really... Pure inuyasha 00:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
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