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Here are some more points that need citations: Afterlife section:
History and origins section:
So, does anyone have cites for any of the four "citation needed" tags? Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 14:26, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
James Kelly Clark critiqued Richard Swinburne's argument for the necessary existence of the Trinity along these lines and offered his own assessment of the divine attributes which he felt was more compatible with the orthodox view of the Trinity as being monotheistic. What information does this long sentence give the reader? — Aiden 15:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed a reference to an ill-informed Islamic attack site that was pretending to be a reference on Montheism. We have to remember that you cannot refute the statement "Christianity is montheistic" by saying "The Quran says there is only one God". DJ Clayworth 17:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Surely a detailed critique of the Trinity belongs at Trinity not here. DJ Clayworth 17:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Who said anything about insults? To respond to an earlier point, I keep finding sites that say that the word "Tritheism" is coming from Christian apologists speaking of Muslims, not from Muslims themselves. Accoding to these sites, what Muslims themselves are saying is that the doctrine of Trinity is incompatible with monotheism, which is slightly different. In other words, according to these sites, it's not Muslims charging Christians with tritheism, but rather Christian apologists putting words in the Muslims' mouths. Keep digging, though, we want to be sure we are accurately citing the orginal sources. BTW there is a parallel citation at monotheism under the Christian section. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
That doesn't quite follow. The issue is that Christians have certain beliefs about the supernatural which they consider to be monotheistic, but others consider these same beliefs as not being monotheistic. This distinction comes from Islam's stricter view of monotheism, just as Chick demands more out of motherhood than Heather does. It is not clear that either definition is mistaken, so we can't pretend it is. Al 18:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
(Yet another edit conflict) I do think there is a deeper point: the Christian Trinity is unique among Abrahamic religions. We can say this without denying that Christians are monotheistic. It's a distinction within monotheism, not a distinction between monotheism and something else. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:19, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
It is logically possible to believe that you are a monotheist without actually being one. Al 18:21, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
There are two beliefs here. One is what the Christians believe about God or gods. The other is what the Christians believe about their own belief. These are distinct. Nothing stops a person from believing in tritheism yet mistakenly considering this belief to be monotheistic. Perhaps more realistically, a person might believe that trinitarianism is monotheistic, yet be shown that it is polytheistic under a stricter definition. Al 18:26, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I don't think it's really important whether or not Christianity is monotheistic. It's a hair-splitting issue depending on what you call a god. I can understand how Christians might say that they are monotheistic because God is one entity, regardless of this confusing trinitarian thing, and no other entity is God. I can also see how Muslims, who believe that Jesus was merely the penultimate prophet, would see a composite deity as being polytheistic. I'm not even sure that there is a fact of the matter here. Either way, it's perfectly neutral and honest to report both sides while endorsing neither. It is entirely true and uncontroversial that Christians profess monotheism. I can't see how this might offend anyone. 18:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Jesus had a sexual orientation? Al 18:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Al: Can you name a source that claims Christians believe that they believe in monotheism, but are really mistaken and believe something else? I briefly addressed this idea above, and noted that when you get into meta-epistemology/psychology (i.e., beliefs about beliefs and reasons for beliefs about beliefs, &c), then Christians can play along too and claim that Muslims only think that they believe Christianity is tritheistic but they are mistaken and really believe Christianity is monotheistic. If we're going to start seconding-guessing whether people actually believe what they claim to believe, we'll be on a very slippery slope, and we'll need to document almost every statement. I don't know of anyone who makes such a claim regarding belief in the Trinity, however, so I doubt any source will be provided, and so it doesn't belong in the article anyhow. » MonkeeSage « 23:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Saying "Christians profess monotheism" instead of "Christianity is monotheistic" is like saying "Christian dogma says Christian dogma believes in one God." Monotheism by definition professes a belief. Saying "Christianity is a monotheistic religion" is exactly the same as saying "Christianity believes there exists one God." This is supported by ALL Christian sects or declarations of belief and, wait, DICTIONARIES! So please stop replacing 1) sourced content with original research and 2) a sourced definition with your own. The fact that Christians believe there exists one God--whether they profess it or not, and whether anyone else in the whole wide world believes them--by definition makes them monotheistic. — Aiden 20:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Not to mention, the dictionary source says explicitly "Christianity: a monothestic religion." It does not say that Christians "profess it to be" nor does it say anything about the accuracy of their belief. Saying Christianity is monotheistic is perfectly NPOV and sourced since it only discusses a belief, not a fact. — Aiden 20:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
How do we know that Christians profess monotheism? Do they really profess it, or do they merely claim to profess it when outsiders are listening? Tom Harrison Talk 21:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
We listen and we read. We don't care if they claim to profess, we look for instances where they do profess. Drogo Underburrow 21:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Tom: We know because they write creeds and publish vast amounts of books on doctrine and write sermons weekly and so on. How do we really know that Muslims don't believe in the Trinity? Mabye they only deny it when outsiders are listening (what's sauce for the goose. . .). » MonkeeSage « 23:31, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Sophia, your version works OK and may well be the solution to the matter, if someone would produce a source that says Christianity is not monotheistic. On the other change, Christian theologians have rejected the formula: "Jesus is a part of the Trinity," arguing that it undervalues the unity of the Godhead. -- CTSWyneken 21:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
CTS is right, the proper termin Christian theology is "member" and not "part." Also, the intro is redundant: "Christianity is a monotheistic religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus...Christianity is considered a monotheistic Abrahamic religion...." Do we have to say "monotheistic" twice?
Nice try, though. Sooner or later we'll come up with a solution that everyone can agree with—hopefully before the Second Coming or the heat death of the universe or whatever. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 22:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
We can't prove it's monotheistic without first proving Islam is a false religion. Good luck with that. Al 23:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Apparently Christianity is a current good article nominee. Alright folks, let's do our best to make sure this is a good article. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 01:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I just now checked, and it's still there. Are you sure you have the correct URL? Just to be sure, I sent you an e-mail.
I motion that we find sources for the other three "citation needed" tags. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 02:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
(LOL with a look over my shoulder) I never said that I wanted to be mentioned on that site (I cannot answer for Homestarmy) so much as I've said I'm afraid I might be. I don't know by what standard anyone would say that I am reasonable and open-minded and KHM03 was not. Perhaps Homestarmy and every other Christian active on this page who is not mentioned on that site is similarly reasonable and open-minded? To be honest, if we could all be reasonable and open-minded, I don't think I would have anything to worry about. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 13:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, now the unmentionable site is down. All that's there is a directory listing. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 06:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Giovanni33 wrote in his edit summary, "Yes, your sources, but not all sources." - well, we've been asking. It doesn't actually need to be "all", only all of many given on this page, as nothing could be stated without qualification if every last possible source must be examined first. So, your reputable sources are...?
"Its still a POV, a matter of belief and interpretation." - what I've been saying is that your belief and interpretation does not count, as per WP:NOR. And no, that's not itself original research. Timothy Usher 09:46, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
CTSWyneken 11:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
"Christians view monotheism as a primary committment. To challenge that comes off as an insult."
And quite possibly is intended as such. A.J.A. 15:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi all,
Unforunately I have not promoted this article because of problems with certain sections of the article.
The Beliefs section is of particular concern. Many of the subsections in it are single sentences. This is itself a stylistic concern, but I also worry some of the explainations are overly terse and do not present their subject in sufficient depth. The Second Coming subsection is especially terse and seems to side-step much of the detail mentioned in related articles such as Christian eschatology.
The Differences in beliefs section is good. The Worship and practices section could probably be stated in a more concise manner (especially tthe subsections). The History section is fine. The last paragraph of the Persecution section on persecution by Christians could probably be dropped. The Controversies section could probably be expanded slightly although by that I do not mean it should become a long list of controversies.
Overall, parts of the article feel they were designed by committee. A really good encyclopedia article should not just state facts but offer insight into its subject. Don't be afraid to leave out minor points if it allows you to offer better insight into the core subject of the article.
I hope this helps and please feel free to resubmit the article for nomination in the future.
Cedars 16:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Just so you know, the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team lists this article as B class, which is less than Good Article status. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 22:37, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I note that Hinduism has reached featured article status. Look at how they handle the introduction:
Hinduism {Sanskrit/Hindi - Hindū Dharma, also known as Sanātana (eternal) Dharma, and Vaidika (of the Vedas) Dharma} is the oldest religion from the Indian subcontinent, based on the Vedas and the beliefs of other people of India. The oldest religious traditions still practiced today. The term Hinduism is heterogenous, as Hinduism consists of several schools of thought. It encompasses many religious rituals that widely vary in practice, as well as many diverse sects and philosophies. Hindus venerate an array of deities, or consider them as manifestations of the one Supreme monistic Cosmic Spirit Brahman, while others focus on a singular concept of God, such as in Vaishnavism, Saivism and Shaktism.[1]
Hinduism is the third largest religion in the world with approximately 970 million adherents (2005 figure), approximately 900 million of whom live in India.[2] [3]"
Ofcourse, Christianity is a different religion but all religions some some common features as religions so the language can be approximate in many instances. Using this as a model, notice the NPOV language, "based on...beleifs of...,'"consider them...","consitst of several schools of thought....encompasses many religious ritutals that widely vary in practice....many deiverse sects and philosophies...."And, notice how they don't insist on a label of monotheism, but state that facts that they "consider them as manifestations of the one Supreme monistic Cosmic Spirit..." This NPOV lanaguage could arguably be adopted for this article. For fun, I did that below, just to see what others think:
Christianity based on the beliefs of the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazereth as recounted in the New Testimant, beleieved to be the Messiah, and thus refer to him as Jesus Christ. Christianity consists of several schools of thought. It encompasses many religious rituals that widely vary in practice, as well as many diverse sects and philosophies. Christians venerate an array of deities, but consider them as manifestations of the one Supreme God, hence maintain a commitment to monotheism, focusing on a singular concept of God." Giovanni33 00:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
As a Protestant, I can obviously say little of Catholic/Orthodox veneration of saints and Mary. I do not see how saints can be called "more than human." Mary was a first-century Jewish woman, blessed but not herself divine. There are angels in Zoroastrianism as well; shall we invite Kash and Fullstop back here to explain (again) why Zoroastriainism is monotheistic? Or is it enough that we can read their comments on this page? As for Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father, it's true that we believe that They are all (one) God, but I'm still waiting for a source that describes this as Tritheism. The List of such sources is still blank. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 01:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
In Chrisiian belief, saints perform miracles not by their own power, but by the power of the Holy Spirit (who is God). Humans, whether saints or not, do not have inherent supernatural powers. The Holy Spirit does. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 02:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
It's not persuasive because non-Christians, including devout Muslims, do not see Jesus as being God. Instead, it looks to many of them as if both God and some man are equally worshipped, which is not monotheistic.
Now, I do understand the doctrine of trinitarianism, but to be frank here, it's something of a stretch, and I can see why many people would refuse to stretch in that direction. In other words, while it is at least nominally a self-consistent explanation, it is by no means the simplest one. To accept it would require an act of faith, and that's not something that can be expected of non-Christians. Al 16:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
The first is from Advent.com. What makes this better than mohammed.org.uk? When, in a certain dispute you accuse one source of not being scholarly and therefore not reputable, then you use a source of similar quality and expect it to stay? Not how it works. Let's find a little bit of NPOV on what sources count.
Well, 1911 was quite a long time ago, which is why NewAdvent can even post the (Old) Catholic Encyclopedia online:it's public domain. I'm sure Str1977 or MusicalLinguist or someone else could cite a more recent edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia—say the 2002 edition of the New Catholic Encyclopedia? The article states that "The New Catholic Encyclopedia is available online at some libraries" but not my library. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 21:37, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Here are some more sources:
Note especially this last one. I guess we need to go indicate in the Islam article that Muslims think they don't worship or idolize the Ka'ba stone, but they really might, since it is verifiable from a reputable third-party source that other people think/have thought they do. And we need to put this information right there in the intro, cause we want to be "NPOV" — we don't want to be caught giving due weight, we want to make sure that in articles about dogmatic groups we give the view of adversaries exactly the same import and validity as the views of adherents, to make sure that we give undue weight. Yeah, cause that's the fair thing to do. Bah. » MonkeeSage « 05:27, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
That last quote especially is strong evidence for speaking of Christian monotheism as professed, so as to avoid POV. Now, if you want to mention the Ka'ba in the relevant Muslim article, feel free, but that doesn't affect what we do here. Al 16:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
A.J.A., it is discourteous to remove an entire point without saying so in your edit summary. I was surprised to find it missing, and had to hunt through the history to find the last version. Why did you do this?
I'm not sure how widespread this controversy is, but it is cited to a reputable scholarly source and is presented neutrally. Timothy Usher 03:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
A.J.A. could you explain further as your point is not clear. Sophia 19:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
We're going round and round and round in circles with this "monotheism" argument. I have said several times, and so has Aiden, that monotheism means the belief that there is one God. It does not mean that such a belief should be acknowledged as reasonable or logical. It does not mean that the belief is true. It does not mean worshipping God in a way that other religions accept as monotheistic. It means, quite simply the belief that there is one God. I keep saying that, and the other side ignores it and points to a very small number of unofficial quotations from Moslems either denying the logic of belief in the Trinity, or denying that the way Christians worship God is truly monotheistic. Then I or someone else says again that monotheism doesn't mean the worship of God in a way that other religions recognize as monotheistic; it means the belief that there is one God. Then someone from the other side says that Moslems don't think worshipping the Trinity is monotheistic. We can keep this up until Christmas next year.
Could the other side please address my point. Are there any official Islamic statements that deny that Christians believe that there is one God? Please do not answer by saying that they don't believe Christians can worship one God when they worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That is not the question. Are there official Islamic statements that deny that Christians believe that there is one God? This argument has been going on for a few days, and so far all the "supposedly so-called, self-professed" group has failed to address the question of whether Moslems deny that Christians believe that there is one God.
If we can finally get a response to that question, then maybe we can move on and discuss whether or not that ought to affect the wording of the article. After all, if we find some Fundamentalist Protestant pamphlet about how all Catholics are going to go to Hell, and it says that Catholics believe that Mary is the Fourth Person in the Blessed Trinity, we don't then write that Catholics "claim to" believe that there are Three Persons in One God.
Whether Molems or Christians are right about the divinity of Christ is a POV, and we can't side with either POV when writing the article. Whether Fundamentalists are right about Catholics going to Hell is a POV. Whether any religion is true or not can not be verified. But what members of one religion believe about what another religion teaches is different, because it can be verified or refuted. And please, please don't say we can't verify whether Christians are really worshipping one God or several. The thing to be verified is whether Christians believe that there is one God or whether they believe that there are several.
Could somebody please address that point? AnnH ♫ 21:48, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, how about "Christians believe in one God subsisting in three persons, a doctrine called Trinitarianism. While Christians assert that this belief is monotheistic, some observers have argued that it is a form of polytheism." Fishhead64 02:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Edit conflict, but I'm calling for intellectual honesty. If we're going to invoke Muslim beliefs or their view of Christianity, we should cite some actual Muslims, not hypothetical ones. All we have so far are some editors that are both non-Christian and non-Muslim, claiming a "Muslim opinion" that contradicts what Muslims themselves say: not that Christians aren't monotheistic, but that Christians are wrong to equate Jesus with God. Quite frankly, Muslims are smart enough to understand the difference. This is not Sophistry, for either Christians or Muslims.
If indeed there is a source that calls Christians "polytheists in denial," then that source should be cited, and not misatributed or confused with the Muslim position. Once you stop misrepresenting Muslims, though, you realize that it's not "hundreds of millions of people," but what, one article in the Oxford Journal of Theology (which I seriously doubt had hundreds of millions of authors!)? "Undue weight" immediately comes to mind. Please, stop unbalancing the scale by claiming a false consensus with Muslims. Please, start being intellectually honest. As Ann says, if we can find an authoritative Muslim source that makes that claim, we can cite it. That no such source has been presented is telling. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 02:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's not forget that Mormons profess polytheism and claim also to be Xn,-- JimWae 03:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I guess I will do some more checking on what they profess, but most other Xians would term it polytheism, I think. More later -- JimWae 03:44, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
However, similar to the way many Xns consider Mormonism to be polytheism, several Xn groups (JWs, Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals) consider other Xn denominations to be professing a form of polytheism -- JimWae 03:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Few there are who claim 1&1&1=1 makes sense or can be rationally discussed -- JimWae 04:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Note I did NOT use + signs. But you don't really think you have a rational explanation/analogy, do you? -- because 1*1*1 does not contain any distinctions within each unit -- JimWae 04:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, that is a tougher analogy to crack, however impenetrable any discussion of the Trinity would remain -- JimWae 04:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
From the Mormonism, a sect of Christianity, on their conception of God. Is this monotheistic in objective terms? It is claimed to be three separate beings, united in purpose.
"The First Vision - God and Jesus Christ appear to the young boy Joseph Smith Jr. in 1820. God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are often described in scripture as one God (2 Nephi 31:21); however, the one Godhead is in reality three separate beings who are unified in purpose and heart (John 17:21-23). This belief is distinguished from the concept of the Trinity as codified in 325 at the Council of Nicaea and in 381 at the Council of Constantinople. God the Father and Jesus Christ have tangible, perfected bodies of flesh and bone. The Community of Christ (one denomination of Mormonism) has rejected this doctrine and that of the Godhead in favor of Trinitarian theology.
God himself was once a human in another realm or universe, created by a separate god. Having gone through a mortal life much like in our realm, he sinned and repented and learned, and after becoming immortal he, along with his wife, Heavenly Mother, spiritually progressed to the level of gods.
Humans are children of a Father in Heaven, and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ they can return to Him and be joint-heirs with Christ of all that the Father has (Romans 8:17)."
This this article is about Christianity, has to be broad enough to respect all the versions of Christianity. Giovanni33 04:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
For a Nicene Trinitarian, the doctine of homo ousia (usually translated as "one substance," "one being," or "one essence") is central to our understanding of how the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all one God. Mormons reject homoousia, which is why others sometimes call them tritheists; however, in reality, they have a different understanding of how the Godhead is one God, and not three. I cannot answer for the rest, but I'm sure that Storm Rider can explain it. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 05:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I post something asking for the dictionary definition "the belief that there is only one God" to be dealt with. I then go to bed for a few hours, wake up, and find hundreds if not thousands of words dealing with something different. Here is the official definition from the twenty-volume Oxford English Dictionary (which I've already given on this page):
We're all still going round and round and round, because people are ignoring the dictionary definition, and accusing me (not Oxford) of weakening the meaning, and are broadening it to include the idea of whether or not people in practice really worship one God, and invoking hypothetical Moslems, who supposedly are in a position to determine not whether the Christian belief is true, but whether Christianity really teaches what it claims to teach.
Note again that monotheism is not defined as "the belief that one believes in and worships one God".
At the risk of repeating myself, the POV is not whether Christians believe that there is one God (it's a fact that they do); the POV is whether or not it is logical or reasonable for them to believe there is one God when they believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The very first words in the ancient Nicene Creed are Credo in unum Deum — I believe in one God. And the Athanasian Creed says "yet they are not three gods but One God."
Let's not all turn into Humpty Dumpty, saying in a scornful voice that when we use a word, it means just what we want it to mean. Let's stick to the official, codified, standardized dictionary definition of "monotheism", and not broaden it to include extra meanings. AnnH ♫ 09:20, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
In the end, as has been said many many times, nearly 100% of Christians believe they are monotheistic, whether some other Christian or non-Christian group disagrees with that in whole or in fraction, even the opposers agree that Christians think they are monotheistic. The definition supports the usage that it can be described as monotheistic. Mention should definitely be made later on that there are disgreements about this, but the talk about whether someone knows what they believe or reading people's hearts, etc is unnecessary. In my opinion. But I'm perfectly fine with there being citations from reputable sources saying otherwise, and even for wording of "profess to be". -- Oscillate 19:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
There was a request for quotes regarding the trinity, that is clear statements that Islam did not believe that Christians were actually monotheists but rather just thought they were. First off I'd like to clarify the original argument is dead, that believing you are a monotheist does not imply you are one.
I don't know if there are any muslims participating but here is the same idea from Jewish literature:
That's good research, Arch. It shows that Jews, like Muslims, question the monotheism of trinitarian Christians. This is not surprising, since Muslims do consider Judaism to be monotheistic. Al 06:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
While the words below do not state "Xty is not monotheistic", they surely say that Xian conception of God as a trinity is not in accord with there being one God. These words are from the Koran, so I guess they are pretty authoritative on the Muslim view of Xty.
It can only be a distortion of these words to say that Muhammed might still have thought Trinitarianism was a form of monotheism, just not monotheistic enough. I think it would be fair to say, as we all knew all along, that Muslim teaching is that Xty does not profess one God. To say that Trinitarianism IS still monotheism would obviously then be a POV in opposition to the view in the Koran.-- JimWae 06:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of whether Muhammed thought that the 3rd person in the Xn Trinity was Mary, the above comments still hold on his views of 3 (or even just 2 persons) being God -- JimWae 07:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Seems to be a lot of supposition in what you (MonkeeSage) say. Muslims deny that Jesus is God, saying there is only one God, who, according to them, is the same God that Jews & Xns worship. None of what you say impacts the claim that they consider teaching Jesus to be God a teaching in opposition to there being one God. According even to what you say, if they think the Trinity is impossible (citation needed), then belief in any additional Gods must be polytheistic and cannot be monotheistic. -- JimWae 07:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
According to MonkeeSage, Muslims believe the Trinity is impossible. They do not think that Trinitarianism is another form of monotheism; indeed they think only one form of monotheism is monotheism. They recognize Xns claim to be monotheistic, but say it is a mistaken to think 3 gods can be one -- JimWae 07:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
We seem to have a disagreement about what Maimondes, the Qur'an, et al are saying. Some interpret them to say that Christianity is not monotheistic. Others interpret them to say that Christianity is not unitarian. Well, no one would dispute that the Trinity is not unitarian, but does that mean that it is not monotheistic? I have to side with MonkeeSage on this one. The distinction is not between monotheism and something else, but between different forms of monotheism, ie, between trinitarian monotheism and unitarian monotheism. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 07:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Folks, first let me compliment everyone for refraining from personal attacks. It is a credit that such an animated discussion can be had without such. I wish there was a group barnstar I could award for this.
To the point. I don't think continued discussion is going to get anywhere. Let me remind folk that everything here must be sources. We now have sources that say Christianity is a monotheistic religion without qualification. Do we have any source, Christian or not that claims the opposite? There may be something in the mess above, but I get disoriented reading it!
If we find such, my proposal for the first paragraph is Sophia's. Simply omit the phrase. This is in keeping with other encyclopedia articles. We then go to the monotheism section and outline the major positions. -- CTSWyneken 11:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised that none of those arguing for the label of monotheism have invoked an understanding of the term that is inclusive of other gods, however seemingly contradictory that appears. But it is one view that is categorized under the term:
"Between the extremes of exclusive monotheism and unlimited polytheism are the middle positions of inclusive monotheism and henotheism. Inclusive monotheism Inclusive monotheism accepts the existence of a great number of gods but holds that all gods are essentially one and the same, so that it makes little or no difference under which name or according to which rite a god or goddess is invoked. Such conceptions characterized the ancient Hellenistic religions. A well-known example is that of the goddess Isis in the Greco-Roman mystery religion that is called after her." http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~sbriggs/Britannica/monotheism.htm Giovanni33 11:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
"Christianity regards itself as a monotheistic religion, for it teaches the existence of one God - specifically, Yahweh, the God of the Jews. It shares this belief with two other major world religions, Judaism and Islam.
However, Christian monotheism is a unique kind of monotheism. It holds that God is One, but that three distinct "persons" constitute the one God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This unique threefold God of Christian belief is referred to as the Trinity (from Latin trinitas, "three"). http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/trinity.htm Giovanni33 12:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I've verified Drogo's Britannica quotation. This gives us one verifiable opinion that Islam, at least, does not consider Christianity monotheistic. Whether or not Islam does is another topic entirely (as would be the question of Islam's committment to monotheism, if we want to go that way, since the Sufi tend towards Monism and Folk Islam with its Jinns towards polytheism (I, for one, take the confession of the Five Pillars seriously enough to grant Islam to be monotheistic, but since folk aren't taking the Apostles', Nicene and Athanasian Creeds seriously.... ;-) )
Anyway... I hereby suggest we drop the "monotheistic" from the intro, since finding a phrase all will accept without getting convoluted is near to impossible. I further suggest we say in the monotheism section something like... "Traditionally, Christians confess the existence of only one God, Who exists in three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Some non-Christians challenge that assertion..." -- CTSWyneken 12:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, although I think you're correct, I also think KV's version is an acceptable compromise that seems more likely to garner a wider consensus. Going back to your Moon analogy, suppose we said that it's "generally believed that astronauts walked on the Moon, although some conspiracy theorists think the whole thing was actually faked as a giant publicity stunt?" Personally I think astronauts walked on the moon, as do most folks, but I can't deny there are a few vocal people that think they didn't, just as I can't deny there seem to be a few vocal people that think Christianity isn't monotheistic, or that Jesus never existed at all. Wesley 16:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Removing 'montheism' would be too much of a concession to allowing one group of people to claim to know what another group believe. To say that Muslims don't consider Christianity to be monotheistic by their definitions is perfectly allowable, and should be mentioned somewhere. To have their definition of monotheism used in the introduction is unreasonable. As I said before, I can find plenty of sources who claim that Islam is a 'pagan religion'. Should that be in the intro to the article? I don't think so. If we allow this we also have to remove the term 'Christian' from groups like the Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses, which many, many people do not consider Christian. DJ Clayworth 17:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I get the impression that people have a beef not with Christianity nor with Western culture, but with the English language. Well, we can always check what the Arabic language Wikipedia says about Christianity. First, we need to find a translator. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I have added the WPCD tag as the article is on the CDs. I guess we need to check the version when the next sweep is done. Hmm. But in the meantime I will continue to enjoy these talk pages. :) -- BozMo talk 12:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
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Here are some more points that need citations: Afterlife section:
History and origins section:
So, does anyone have cites for any of the four "citation needed" tags? Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 14:26, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
James Kelly Clark critiqued Richard Swinburne's argument for the necessary existence of the Trinity along these lines and offered his own assessment of the divine attributes which he felt was more compatible with the orthodox view of the Trinity as being monotheistic. What information does this long sentence give the reader? — Aiden 15:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed a reference to an ill-informed Islamic attack site that was pretending to be a reference on Montheism. We have to remember that you cannot refute the statement "Christianity is montheistic" by saying "The Quran says there is only one God". DJ Clayworth 17:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Surely a detailed critique of the Trinity belongs at Trinity not here. DJ Clayworth 17:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Who said anything about insults? To respond to an earlier point, I keep finding sites that say that the word "Tritheism" is coming from Christian apologists speaking of Muslims, not from Muslims themselves. Accoding to these sites, what Muslims themselves are saying is that the doctrine of Trinity is incompatible with monotheism, which is slightly different. In other words, according to these sites, it's not Muslims charging Christians with tritheism, but rather Christian apologists putting words in the Muslims' mouths. Keep digging, though, we want to be sure we are accurately citing the orginal sources. BTW there is a parallel citation at monotheism under the Christian section. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
That doesn't quite follow. The issue is that Christians have certain beliefs about the supernatural which they consider to be monotheistic, but others consider these same beliefs as not being monotheistic. This distinction comes from Islam's stricter view of monotheism, just as Chick demands more out of motherhood than Heather does. It is not clear that either definition is mistaken, so we can't pretend it is. Al 18:14, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
(Yet another edit conflict) I do think there is a deeper point: the Christian Trinity is unique among Abrahamic religions. We can say this without denying that Christians are monotheistic. It's a distinction within monotheism, not a distinction between monotheism and something else. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:19, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
It is logically possible to believe that you are a monotheist without actually being one. Al 18:21, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
There are two beliefs here. One is what the Christians believe about God or gods. The other is what the Christians believe about their own belief. These are distinct. Nothing stops a person from believing in tritheism yet mistakenly considering this belief to be monotheistic. Perhaps more realistically, a person might believe that trinitarianism is monotheistic, yet be shown that it is polytheistic under a stricter definition. Al 18:26, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I don't think it's really important whether or not Christianity is monotheistic. It's a hair-splitting issue depending on what you call a god. I can understand how Christians might say that they are monotheistic because God is one entity, regardless of this confusing trinitarian thing, and no other entity is God. I can also see how Muslims, who believe that Jesus was merely the penultimate prophet, would see a composite deity as being polytheistic. I'm not even sure that there is a fact of the matter here. Either way, it's perfectly neutral and honest to report both sides while endorsing neither. It is entirely true and uncontroversial that Christians profess monotheism. I can't see how this might offend anyone. 18:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Jesus had a sexual orientation? Al 18:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Al: Can you name a source that claims Christians believe that they believe in monotheism, but are really mistaken and believe something else? I briefly addressed this idea above, and noted that when you get into meta-epistemology/psychology (i.e., beliefs about beliefs and reasons for beliefs about beliefs, &c), then Christians can play along too and claim that Muslims only think that they believe Christianity is tritheistic but they are mistaken and really believe Christianity is monotheistic. If we're going to start seconding-guessing whether people actually believe what they claim to believe, we'll be on a very slippery slope, and we'll need to document almost every statement. I don't know of anyone who makes such a claim regarding belief in the Trinity, however, so I doubt any source will be provided, and so it doesn't belong in the article anyhow. » MonkeeSage « 23:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Saying "Christians profess monotheism" instead of "Christianity is monotheistic" is like saying "Christian dogma says Christian dogma believes in one God." Monotheism by definition professes a belief. Saying "Christianity is a monotheistic religion" is exactly the same as saying "Christianity believes there exists one God." This is supported by ALL Christian sects or declarations of belief and, wait, DICTIONARIES! So please stop replacing 1) sourced content with original research and 2) a sourced definition with your own. The fact that Christians believe there exists one God--whether they profess it or not, and whether anyone else in the whole wide world believes them--by definition makes them monotheistic. — Aiden 20:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Not to mention, the dictionary source says explicitly "Christianity: a monothestic religion." It does not say that Christians "profess it to be" nor does it say anything about the accuracy of their belief. Saying Christianity is monotheistic is perfectly NPOV and sourced since it only discusses a belief, not a fact. — Aiden 20:29, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
How do we know that Christians profess monotheism? Do they really profess it, or do they merely claim to profess it when outsiders are listening? Tom Harrison Talk 21:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
We listen and we read. We don't care if they claim to profess, we look for instances where they do profess. Drogo Underburrow 21:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Tom: We know because they write creeds and publish vast amounts of books on doctrine and write sermons weekly and so on. How do we really know that Muslims don't believe in the Trinity? Mabye they only deny it when outsiders are listening (what's sauce for the goose. . .). » MonkeeSage « 23:31, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Sophia, your version works OK and may well be the solution to the matter, if someone would produce a source that says Christianity is not monotheistic. On the other change, Christian theologians have rejected the formula: "Jesus is a part of the Trinity," arguing that it undervalues the unity of the Godhead. -- CTSWyneken 21:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
CTS is right, the proper termin Christian theology is "member" and not "part." Also, the intro is redundant: "Christianity is a monotheistic religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus...Christianity is considered a monotheistic Abrahamic religion...." Do we have to say "monotheistic" twice?
Nice try, though. Sooner or later we'll come up with a solution that everyone can agree with—hopefully before the Second Coming or the heat death of the universe or whatever. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 22:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
We can't prove it's monotheistic without first proving Islam is a false religion. Good luck with that. Al 23:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Apparently Christianity is a current good article nominee. Alright folks, let's do our best to make sure this is a good article. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 01:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I just now checked, and it's still there. Are you sure you have the correct URL? Just to be sure, I sent you an e-mail.
I motion that we find sources for the other three "citation needed" tags. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 02:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
(LOL with a look over my shoulder) I never said that I wanted to be mentioned on that site (I cannot answer for Homestarmy) so much as I've said I'm afraid I might be. I don't know by what standard anyone would say that I am reasonable and open-minded and KHM03 was not. Perhaps Homestarmy and every other Christian active on this page who is not mentioned on that site is similarly reasonable and open-minded? To be honest, if we could all be reasonable and open-minded, I don't think I would have anything to worry about. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 13:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, now the unmentionable site is down. All that's there is a directory listing. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 06:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Giovanni33 wrote in his edit summary, "Yes, your sources, but not all sources." - well, we've been asking. It doesn't actually need to be "all", only all of many given on this page, as nothing could be stated without qualification if every last possible source must be examined first. So, your reputable sources are...?
"Its still a POV, a matter of belief and interpretation." - what I've been saying is that your belief and interpretation does not count, as per WP:NOR. And no, that's not itself original research. Timothy Usher 09:46, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
CTSWyneken 11:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
"Christians view monotheism as a primary committment. To challenge that comes off as an insult."
And quite possibly is intended as such. A.J.A. 15:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi all,
Unforunately I have not promoted this article because of problems with certain sections of the article.
The Beliefs section is of particular concern. Many of the subsections in it are single sentences. This is itself a stylistic concern, but I also worry some of the explainations are overly terse and do not present their subject in sufficient depth. The Second Coming subsection is especially terse and seems to side-step much of the detail mentioned in related articles such as Christian eschatology.
The Differences in beliefs section is good. The Worship and practices section could probably be stated in a more concise manner (especially tthe subsections). The History section is fine. The last paragraph of the Persecution section on persecution by Christians could probably be dropped. The Controversies section could probably be expanded slightly although by that I do not mean it should become a long list of controversies.
Overall, parts of the article feel they were designed by committee. A really good encyclopedia article should not just state facts but offer insight into its subject. Don't be afraid to leave out minor points if it allows you to offer better insight into the core subject of the article.
I hope this helps and please feel free to resubmit the article for nomination in the future.
Cedars 16:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Just so you know, the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team lists this article as B class, which is less than Good Article status. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 22:37, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
I note that Hinduism has reached featured article status. Look at how they handle the introduction:
Hinduism {Sanskrit/Hindi - Hindū Dharma, also known as Sanātana (eternal) Dharma, and Vaidika (of the Vedas) Dharma} is the oldest religion from the Indian subcontinent, based on the Vedas and the beliefs of other people of India. The oldest religious traditions still practiced today. The term Hinduism is heterogenous, as Hinduism consists of several schools of thought. It encompasses many religious rituals that widely vary in practice, as well as many diverse sects and philosophies. Hindus venerate an array of deities, or consider them as manifestations of the one Supreme monistic Cosmic Spirit Brahman, while others focus on a singular concept of God, such as in Vaishnavism, Saivism and Shaktism.[1]
Hinduism is the third largest religion in the world with approximately 970 million adherents (2005 figure), approximately 900 million of whom live in India.[2] [3]"
Ofcourse, Christianity is a different religion but all religions some some common features as religions so the language can be approximate in many instances. Using this as a model, notice the NPOV language, "based on...beleifs of...,'"consider them...","consitst of several schools of thought....encompasses many religious ritutals that widely vary in practice....many deiverse sects and philosophies...."And, notice how they don't insist on a label of monotheism, but state that facts that they "consider them as manifestations of the one Supreme monistic Cosmic Spirit..." This NPOV lanaguage could arguably be adopted for this article. For fun, I did that below, just to see what others think:
Christianity based on the beliefs of the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazereth as recounted in the New Testimant, beleieved to be the Messiah, and thus refer to him as Jesus Christ. Christianity consists of several schools of thought. It encompasses many religious rituals that widely vary in practice, as well as many diverse sects and philosophies. Christians venerate an array of deities, but consider them as manifestations of the one Supreme God, hence maintain a commitment to monotheism, focusing on a singular concept of God." Giovanni33 00:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
As a Protestant, I can obviously say little of Catholic/Orthodox veneration of saints and Mary. I do not see how saints can be called "more than human." Mary was a first-century Jewish woman, blessed but not herself divine. There are angels in Zoroastrianism as well; shall we invite Kash and Fullstop back here to explain (again) why Zoroastriainism is monotheistic? Or is it enough that we can read their comments on this page? As for Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father, it's true that we believe that They are all (one) God, but I'm still waiting for a source that describes this as Tritheism. The List of such sources is still blank. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 01:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
In Chrisiian belief, saints perform miracles not by their own power, but by the power of the Holy Spirit (who is God). Humans, whether saints or not, do not have inherent supernatural powers. The Holy Spirit does. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 02:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
It's not persuasive because non-Christians, including devout Muslims, do not see Jesus as being God. Instead, it looks to many of them as if both God and some man are equally worshipped, which is not monotheistic.
Now, I do understand the doctrine of trinitarianism, but to be frank here, it's something of a stretch, and I can see why many people would refuse to stretch in that direction. In other words, while it is at least nominally a self-consistent explanation, it is by no means the simplest one. To accept it would require an act of faith, and that's not something that can be expected of non-Christians. Al 16:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
The first is from Advent.com. What makes this better than mohammed.org.uk? When, in a certain dispute you accuse one source of not being scholarly and therefore not reputable, then you use a source of similar quality and expect it to stay? Not how it works. Let's find a little bit of NPOV on what sources count.
Well, 1911 was quite a long time ago, which is why NewAdvent can even post the (Old) Catholic Encyclopedia online:it's public domain. I'm sure Str1977 or MusicalLinguist or someone else could cite a more recent edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia—say the 2002 edition of the New Catholic Encyclopedia? The article states that "The New Catholic Encyclopedia is available online at some libraries" but not my library. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 21:37, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Here are some more sources:
Note especially this last one. I guess we need to go indicate in the Islam article that Muslims think they don't worship or idolize the Ka'ba stone, but they really might, since it is verifiable from a reputable third-party source that other people think/have thought they do. And we need to put this information right there in the intro, cause we want to be "NPOV" — we don't want to be caught giving due weight, we want to make sure that in articles about dogmatic groups we give the view of adversaries exactly the same import and validity as the views of adherents, to make sure that we give undue weight. Yeah, cause that's the fair thing to do. Bah. » MonkeeSage « 05:27, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
That last quote especially is strong evidence for speaking of Christian monotheism as professed, so as to avoid POV. Now, if you want to mention the Ka'ba in the relevant Muslim article, feel free, but that doesn't affect what we do here. Al 16:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
A.J.A., it is discourteous to remove an entire point without saying so in your edit summary. I was surprised to find it missing, and had to hunt through the history to find the last version. Why did you do this?
I'm not sure how widespread this controversy is, but it is cited to a reputable scholarly source and is presented neutrally. Timothy Usher 03:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
A.J.A. could you explain further as your point is not clear. Sophia 19:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
We're going round and round and round in circles with this "monotheism" argument. I have said several times, and so has Aiden, that monotheism means the belief that there is one God. It does not mean that such a belief should be acknowledged as reasonable or logical. It does not mean that the belief is true. It does not mean worshipping God in a way that other religions accept as monotheistic. It means, quite simply the belief that there is one God. I keep saying that, and the other side ignores it and points to a very small number of unofficial quotations from Moslems either denying the logic of belief in the Trinity, or denying that the way Christians worship God is truly monotheistic. Then I or someone else says again that monotheism doesn't mean the worship of God in a way that other religions recognize as monotheistic; it means the belief that there is one God. Then someone from the other side says that Moslems don't think worshipping the Trinity is monotheistic. We can keep this up until Christmas next year.
Could the other side please address my point. Are there any official Islamic statements that deny that Christians believe that there is one God? Please do not answer by saying that they don't believe Christians can worship one God when they worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That is not the question. Are there official Islamic statements that deny that Christians believe that there is one God? This argument has been going on for a few days, and so far all the "supposedly so-called, self-professed" group has failed to address the question of whether Moslems deny that Christians believe that there is one God.
If we can finally get a response to that question, then maybe we can move on and discuss whether or not that ought to affect the wording of the article. After all, if we find some Fundamentalist Protestant pamphlet about how all Catholics are going to go to Hell, and it says that Catholics believe that Mary is the Fourth Person in the Blessed Trinity, we don't then write that Catholics "claim to" believe that there are Three Persons in One God.
Whether Molems or Christians are right about the divinity of Christ is a POV, and we can't side with either POV when writing the article. Whether Fundamentalists are right about Catholics going to Hell is a POV. Whether any religion is true or not can not be verified. But what members of one religion believe about what another religion teaches is different, because it can be verified or refuted. And please, please don't say we can't verify whether Christians are really worshipping one God or several. The thing to be verified is whether Christians believe that there is one God or whether they believe that there are several.
Could somebody please address that point? AnnH ♫ 21:48, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, how about "Christians believe in one God subsisting in three persons, a doctrine called Trinitarianism. While Christians assert that this belief is monotheistic, some observers have argued that it is a form of polytheism." Fishhead64 02:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Edit conflict, but I'm calling for intellectual honesty. If we're going to invoke Muslim beliefs or their view of Christianity, we should cite some actual Muslims, not hypothetical ones. All we have so far are some editors that are both non-Christian and non-Muslim, claiming a "Muslim opinion" that contradicts what Muslims themselves say: not that Christians aren't monotheistic, but that Christians are wrong to equate Jesus with God. Quite frankly, Muslims are smart enough to understand the difference. This is not Sophistry, for either Christians or Muslims.
If indeed there is a source that calls Christians "polytheists in denial," then that source should be cited, and not misatributed or confused with the Muslim position. Once you stop misrepresenting Muslims, though, you realize that it's not "hundreds of millions of people," but what, one article in the Oxford Journal of Theology (which I seriously doubt had hundreds of millions of authors!)? "Undue weight" immediately comes to mind. Please, stop unbalancing the scale by claiming a false consensus with Muslims. Please, start being intellectually honest. As Ann says, if we can find an authoritative Muslim source that makes that claim, we can cite it. That no such source has been presented is telling. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 02:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Let's not forget that Mormons profess polytheism and claim also to be Xn,-- JimWae 03:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I guess I will do some more checking on what they profess, but most other Xians would term it polytheism, I think. More later -- JimWae 03:44, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
However, similar to the way many Xns consider Mormonism to be polytheism, several Xn groups (JWs, Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals) consider other Xn denominations to be professing a form of polytheism -- JimWae 03:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Few there are who claim 1&1&1=1 makes sense or can be rationally discussed -- JimWae 04:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Note I did NOT use + signs. But you don't really think you have a rational explanation/analogy, do you? -- because 1*1*1 does not contain any distinctions within each unit -- JimWae 04:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, that is a tougher analogy to crack, however impenetrable any discussion of the Trinity would remain -- JimWae 04:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
From the Mormonism, a sect of Christianity, on their conception of God. Is this monotheistic in objective terms? It is claimed to be three separate beings, united in purpose.
"The First Vision - God and Jesus Christ appear to the young boy Joseph Smith Jr. in 1820. God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are often described in scripture as one God (2 Nephi 31:21); however, the one Godhead is in reality three separate beings who are unified in purpose and heart (John 17:21-23). This belief is distinguished from the concept of the Trinity as codified in 325 at the Council of Nicaea and in 381 at the Council of Constantinople. God the Father and Jesus Christ have tangible, perfected bodies of flesh and bone. The Community of Christ (one denomination of Mormonism) has rejected this doctrine and that of the Godhead in favor of Trinitarian theology.
God himself was once a human in another realm or universe, created by a separate god. Having gone through a mortal life much like in our realm, he sinned and repented and learned, and after becoming immortal he, along with his wife, Heavenly Mother, spiritually progressed to the level of gods.
Humans are children of a Father in Heaven, and through the Atonement of Jesus Christ they can return to Him and be joint-heirs with Christ of all that the Father has (Romans 8:17)."
This this article is about Christianity, has to be broad enough to respect all the versions of Christianity. Giovanni33 04:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
For a Nicene Trinitarian, the doctine of homo ousia (usually translated as "one substance," "one being," or "one essence") is central to our understanding of how the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all one God. Mormons reject homoousia, which is why others sometimes call them tritheists; however, in reality, they have a different understanding of how the Godhead is one God, and not three. I cannot answer for the rest, but I'm sure that Storm Rider can explain it. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 05:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I post something asking for the dictionary definition "the belief that there is only one God" to be dealt with. I then go to bed for a few hours, wake up, and find hundreds if not thousands of words dealing with something different. Here is the official definition from the twenty-volume Oxford English Dictionary (which I've already given on this page):
We're all still going round and round and round, because people are ignoring the dictionary definition, and accusing me (not Oxford) of weakening the meaning, and are broadening it to include the idea of whether or not people in practice really worship one God, and invoking hypothetical Moslems, who supposedly are in a position to determine not whether the Christian belief is true, but whether Christianity really teaches what it claims to teach.
Note again that monotheism is not defined as "the belief that one believes in and worships one God".
At the risk of repeating myself, the POV is not whether Christians believe that there is one God (it's a fact that they do); the POV is whether or not it is logical or reasonable for them to believe there is one God when they believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The very first words in the ancient Nicene Creed are Credo in unum Deum — I believe in one God. And the Athanasian Creed says "yet they are not three gods but One God."
Let's not all turn into Humpty Dumpty, saying in a scornful voice that when we use a word, it means just what we want it to mean. Let's stick to the official, codified, standardized dictionary definition of "monotheism", and not broaden it to include extra meanings. AnnH ♫ 09:20, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
In the end, as has been said many many times, nearly 100% of Christians believe they are monotheistic, whether some other Christian or non-Christian group disagrees with that in whole or in fraction, even the opposers agree that Christians think they are monotheistic. The definition supports the usage that it can be described as monotheistic. Mention should definitely be made later on that there are disgreements about this, but the talk about whether someone knows what they believe or reading people's hearts, etc is unnecessary. In my opinion. But I'm perfectly fine with there being citations from reputable sources saying otherwise, and even for wording of "profess to be". -- Oscillate 19:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
There was a request for quotes regarding the trinity, that is clear statements that Islam did not believe that Christians were actually monotheists but rather just thought they were. First off I'd like to clarify the original argument is dead, that believing you are a monotheist does not imply you are one.
I don't know if there are any muslims participating but here is the same idea from Jewish literature:
That's good research, Arch. It shows that Jews, like Muslims, question the monotheism of trinitarian Christians. This is not surprising, since Muslims do consider Judaism to be monotheistic. Al 06:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
While the words below do not state "Xty is not monotheistic", they surely say that Xian conception of God as a trinity is not in accord with there being one God. These words are from the Koran, so I guess they are pretty authoritative on the Muslim view of Xty.
It can only be a distortion of these words to say that Muhammed might still have thought Trinitarianism was a form of monotheism, just not monotheistic enough. I think it would be fair to say, as we all knew all along, that Muslim teaching is that Xty does not profess one God. To say that Trinitarianism IS still monotheism would obviously then be a POV in opposition to the view in the Koran.-- JimWae 06:28, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of whether Muhammed thought that the 3rd person in the Xn Trinity was Mary, the above comments still hold on his views of 3 (or even just 2 persons) being God -- JimWae 07:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Seems to be a lot of supposition in what you (MonkeeSage) say. Muslims deny that Jesus is God, saying there is only one God, who, according to them, is the same God that Jews & Xns worship. None of what you say impacts the claim that they consider teaching Jesus to be God a teaching in opposition to there being one God. According even to what you say, if they think the Trinity is impossible (citation needed), then belief in any additional Gods must be polytheistic and cannot be monotheistic. -- JimWae 07:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
According to MonkeeSage, Muslims believe the Trinity is impossible. They do not think that Trinitarianism is another form of monotheism; indeed they think only one form of monotheism is monotheism. They recognize Xns claim to be monotheistic, but say it is a mistaken to think 3 gods can be one -- JimWae 07:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
We seem to have a disagreement about what Maimondes, the Qur'an, et al are saying. Some interpret them to say that Christianity is not monotheistic. Others interpret them to say that Christianity is not unitarian. Well, no one would dispute that the Trinity is not unitarian, but does that mean that it is not monotheistic? I have to side with MonkeeSage on this one. The distinction is not between monotheism and something else, but between different forms of monotheism, ie, between trinitarian monotheism and unitarian monotheism. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 07:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Folks, first let me compliment everyone for refraining from personal attacks. It is a credit that such an animated discussion can be had without such. I wish there was a group barnstar I could award for this.
To the point. I don't think continued discussion is going to get anywhere. Let me remind folk that everything here must be sources. We now have sources that say Christianity is a monotheistic religion without qualification. Do we have any source, Christian or not that claims the opposite? There may be something in the mess above, but I get disoriented reading it!
If we find such, my proposal for the first paragraph is Sophia's. Simply omit the phrase. This is in keeping with other encyclopedia articles. We then go to the monotheism section and outline the major positions. -- CTSWyneken 11:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised that none of those arguing for the label of monotheism have invoked an understanding of the term that is inclusive of other gods, however seemingly contradictory that appears. But it is one view that is categorized under the term:
"Between the extremes of exclusive monotheism and unlimited polytheism are the middle positions of inclusive monotheism and henotheism. Inclusive monotheism Inclusive monotheism accepts the existence of a great number of gods but holds that all gods are essentially one and the same, so that it makes little or no difference under which name or according to which rite a god or goddess is invoked. Such conceptions characterized the ancient Hellenistic religions. A well-known example is that of the goddess Isis in the Greco-Roman mystery religion that is called after her." http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~sbriggs/Britannica/monotheism.htm Giovanni33 11:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
"Christianity regards itself as a monotheistic religion, for it teaches the existence of one God - specifically, Yahweh, the God of the Jews. It shares this belief with two other major world religions, Judaism and Islam.
However, Christian monotheism is a unique kind of monotheism. It holds that God is One, but that three distinct "persons" constitute the one God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This unique threefold God of Christian belief is referred to as the Trinity (from Latin trinitas, "three"). http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/trinity.htm Giovanni33 12:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I've verified Drogo's Britannica quotation. This gives us one verifiable opinion that Islam, at least, does not consider Christianity monotheistic. Whether or not Islam does is another topic entirely (as would be the question of Islam's committment to monotheism, if we want to go that way, since the Sufi tend towards Monism and Folk Islam with its Jinns towards polytheism (I, for one, take the confession of the Five Pillars seriously enough to grant Islam to be monotheistic, but since folk aren't taking the Apostles', Nicene and Athanasian Creeds seriously.... ;-) )
Anyway... I hereby suggest we drop the "monotheistic" from the intro, since finding a phrase all will accept without getting convoluted is near to impossible. I further suggest we say in the monotheism section something like... "Traditionally, Christians confess the existence of only one God, Who exists in three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Some non-Christians challenge that assertion..." -- CTSWyneken 12:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Aiden, although I think you're correct, I also think KV's version is an acceptable compromise that seems more likely to garner a wider consensus. Going back to your Moon analogy, suppose we said that it's "generally believed that astronauts walked on the Moon, although some conspiracy theorists think the whole thing was actually faked as a giant publicity stunt?" Personally I think astronauts walked on the moon, as do most folks, but I can't deny there are a few vocal people that think they didn't, just as I can't deny there seem to be a few vocal people that think Christianity isn't monotheistic, or that Jesus never existed at all. Wesley 16:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Removing 'montheism' would be too much of a concession to allowing one group of people to claim to know what another group believe. To say that Muslims don't consider Christianity to be monotheistic by their definitions is perfectly allowable, and should be mentioned somewhere. To have their definition of monotheism used in the introduction is unreasonable. As I said before, I can find plenty of sources who claim that Islam is a 'pagan religion'. Should that be in the intro to the article? I don't think so. If we allow this we also have to remove the term 'Christian' from groups like the Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses, which many, many people do not consider Christian. DJ Clayworth 17:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I get the impression that people have a beef not with Christianity nor with Western culture, but with the English language. Well, we can always check what the Arabic language Wikipedia says about Christianity. First, we need to find a translator. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 18:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I have added the WPCD tag as the article is on the CDs. I guess we need to check the version when the next sweep is done. Hmm. But in the meantime I will continue to enjoy these talk pages. :) -- BozMo talk 12:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)