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I want to go over some of the changes I made to try to accurately characterize the positions fairly, and some change to improve the NPOV language. Finally, removal of some sections which could be combined, removing redundancies.
It orginally said "scholarship suggests that Christianity may have also emerged, in part and out of the various mystery teachings that existed in Greece and the Middle East in antiquity, such as Gnosticism and various mystery cults. Among those that may have had an influence on the form, language and doctrines of Christianity include the Nasseni, Essenes, Therapeutae, Gnostics, Dionysus, and there is much speculation..."
I changed this by introducing a brief statment that this is a minority view in Christian scholarship, but common in secular sholarship that "Chistianity was also strongly influenced by the mystery religions of the Greco-Roman world and the Near East in which it developed. Among those that may have had an influence on the form, language and doctrines of Christianity include Gnosticism, the Nasseni, Essenes, Therapeutae, Dionysus, and various mystery cults."
Notice how above it states mystery teaching twice needlessly, and does not characterize the fact that this is just a view among secular scholars. My changes characterize the positions and removes redunancies.
I also changed, Professor Barry Powell, and others, argue that many elements of Christianity were also influenced by the cult of Dionysus.
To the more accurately worded,
Many scholars, such as Professor Barry Powell, argue that the cult of Dionysus played a signifiant influuencing role in the development of Christianity.
I also noted that when I quote scholars points of view, as long as it says , "According to -x---, such and such influenced.." it can be stated as a fact. Even if its their opinion, its factual. since we are only stating what so and so scholars said. There is no need to add words such as "alleged" in their statments unless we get rid of "According to...." Then its needed. Ofcourse, we can quote scholars from the other point of view, too, if they refute these the view points. Giovanni33 10:41, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
No, Giovanni. There is no such thing as "secular" scholarship - don't try to paint those scholars who don't subscribe to the views quoted by you as "religious"/"Christian" and therefore dubious.
Although a minority view among mainstream Christan scholarship, its is commonly accepted in secular academic circles that ..
It isn't possible to seperate this into two fields. And while theories about the influence of MCs are common to scholarship no one theory or all of the together are "commonly accepted", nor is a "Christianity started out as a MC" common - the common theories consider MCs an influence and not a starting point.
I agree with you quoting scholars in principle and would advise against weasel words such as alleged unless it is absolutely necessary. But keep in mind the overview character of this section here - but at the moment I am a bit liberal on this, as Early Christianity might benefit from this. Str1977 10:51, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Str, lets try to review changes here, esp. any drastic changes before making them in the main page, because it looks like we are both working at the same time. Giovanni33 11:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Str, I took to heart your suggestion and removed the mention of any division of secular and christian scholars, with this new text: "Although some of the attributed influences are a minority view among mainstream scholarship, its is commonly accepted in academic circles that Chistianity was also strongly influenced by the mystery religions of the Greco-Roman world and the Near East in which it developed."
What do you think? Giovanni33 11:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
It is a feasible starting point and I will include it for the moment, as I have to leave shortly. But I will get back to you soon. Str1977 11:33, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Ann, maybe you are a loss to understand because you have not been following the talk page. For most of the evening editors have been working on the new content. We are making significant progress. All of a suddent its all removed and are again back to square one--if this is left up. This is not a new proposed policy by anyone its what was working and apparently consensus among editors since they did not revert but choose to contribute with their edits. In just one day of doing this its markedly improved. Now you would have us go back to this old version which a matter of contention because you claims we dont have consensus yet? Are you the defender of the old order until we reach some undefined consensus (we have to take a vote before making changes?). Removing material that several editors are working on based on compromises taking place here on the talk page is counter productive. And, on I did not make any reverts using my IP address within the last 24 hours as you claim. BelindaGong 12:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that we can all benefit reviewing the Wiki policy on NPOV. I know we all think we know it, but in practice, I think many of us can slip back into non encylopedic mind frames. I excerted several sections and include them below so that we can review this and see how it applies to solving the ongoing conflicts here. I feel that if we did follow these guidelines from the start we would have avoided a lot of needless edit conficts. I think Storm Rider tact refects the a Wiki NPOV stance, and I hope that after reading the text below, we can all come to an agreement with him about allowing the content I've been advocating inclusion for. Giovanni33 08:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Articles should be written without bias, representing all majority and significant minority views fairly. This is the neutral point of view policy. Articles without bias describe debates fairly instead of advocating any side of the debate. Since all articles are edited by people, this is difficult, as people are inherently biased. . What people believe is a matter of objective fact, and we can present that quite easily from the neutral point of view.
A solution is that we accept, for the purposes of working on Wikipedia, that "human knowledge" includes all different significant theories on all different topics. So we're committed to the goal of representing human knowledge in that sense.
Nearly every view on every subject will be found among our authors and readers. To avoid endless edit wars, we can agree to present each of the significant views fairly, and not assert any one of them as correct. That is what makes an article "unbiased" or "neutral" in the sense we are presenting here. To write from a neutral point of view, one presents controversial views without asserting them; to do that, it generally suffices to present competing views in a way that is more or less acceptable to their adherents, and also to attribute the views to their adherents. Disputes are characterized in Wikipedia. They are not re-enacted. We should, both individually and collectively, make an effort to present these conflicting views fairly.
There is another reason to commit ourselves to this policy. Namely, when it is clear to readers that we do not expect them to adopt any particular opinion, this leaves them free to make up their minds for themselves, thus encouraging intellectual independence. The presentation of many competing theories on a wide variety of subjects suggests that we, the creators of Wikipedia, trust readers' competence to form their own opinions themselves. Texts that present multiple viewpoints fairly, without demanding that the reader accept any one of them, are liberating. Neutrality subverts dogmatism, and nearly everyone working on Wikipedia can agree this is a good thing.
Unbiased writing does not present only the most popular view. Presenting all points of view says, more or less, that p-ists believe that p, and q-ists believe that q, and that's where the debate stands at present. Ideally, presenting all points of view also gives a great deal of background on who believes that p and q and why, and which view is more popular (being careful not to associate popularity with correctness). Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of the p-ists and the q-ists, allowing each side to give its "best shot" at the other, but studiously refraining from saying who won the exchange.
A point here bears elaboration. We said that the neutral point of view is not, contrary to the seeming implication of the phrase, some actual point of view that is "neutral" or "intermediate" among the different positions. That represents a particular understanding of what "neutral point of view" means. The prevailing Wikipedia understanding is that the neutral point of view is not a point of view at all; according to our understanding, when one writes neutrally, one is very careful not to state (or imply or insinuate or subtly massage the reader into believing) that any particular view at all is correct.
Another point bears elaboration as well. Writing unbiasedly can be conceived very well as representing disputes, characterizing them, rather than engaging in them.
Undue weight Now an important qualification. Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties.
· If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; · If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
Bias
Bias need not be conscious. For example, beginners in a field often fail to realize that what sounds like common sense is actually biased in favor of one particular view. The policy of having a neutral point of view is not to hide different points of view, but to show the diversity of viewpoints. In case of controversy, the strong points and weak points will be shown according to each point of view, without taking a side. The neutral point of view is not a "separate but equal" policy. The facts, in themselves, are neutral, but the simple accumulation of them cannot be the neutral point of view. If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral.
We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves. Certainly, there are bound to be borderline cases where a fact is disputed but we're not sure if we should take the dispute seriously, or where the distinction between fact and value will itself necessarily be in dispute. Nevertheless, there are many propositions that clearly express undisputed facts, and others that clearly express values or opinions. That a survey produced a certain published result is a fact.
In presenting an opinion, moreover, it is important to bear in mind that there are disagreements about how opinions are best stated; sometimes, it will be necessary to qualify the description of an opinion or to present several formulations, simply to arrive at a solution that fairly represents all the leading views of the situation. But it's not enough, to express the Wikipedia non-bias policy, just to say that we should state facts and not opinions. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It's also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It's often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. Disagreements over whether something is approached the Neutral Point Of View (NPOV) way can usually be avoided through the practice of good research. Facts (as defined in the previous paragraph) are not Points Of View in and of themselves. A good way to help building a neutral point of view is to find a reputable source for the piece of information you want to add to wikipedia, and then cite that source. This is an easy way to characterize a side of a debate without excluding that the debate has other sides. The trick is to find the best and most reputable sources you can.
The only other important consideration is that sources of comparable reputability might contradict. In that case the core of the NPOV policy is to let competing approaches of the same topic exist on the same page: work for balance, that is: divide space describing the opposing viewpoints according to reputability of the sources. And, when available, give precedence to those sources that have been the most successful in presenting facts in an equally balanced manner.
We should, instead, write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. Let's present all significant, competing views sympathetically. We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a good idea, except that, in the view of some detractors, the supporters of said view overlooked such-and-such a detail. There are numerous other success stories of articles that began life as virtual partisan screeds but were nicely cleaned up by people who concerned themselves with representing all views clearly and sympathetically.
The policy is simply that we should characterize disputes rather than engage in them. all the major participants will be able to look at the resulting text, agreeing that their views are presented sympathetically and as completely as possible (within the context of the discussion).
Neutrality dictates that there can be multiple prominent interpretations to the meaning or validity of a work, but often the contents can be objectively verified, especially in the case of modern documents.
If we're going to represent the sum total of human knowledge, then we must concede that we will be describing views repugnant to us without asserting that they are false. The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly.
Religion
NPOV policy often means presenting multiple points of view. This means providing not only the points of view of different groups today, but also different groups in the past. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. One important task for encyclopedias is to explain things. In the case of human beliefs and practices, explanation encompasses not only what motivates individuals who hold these beliefs and practices, but an account of how such beliefs and practices came to be and took shape. Wikipedia articles on history and religion draw from a religion's sacred texts. But Wikipedia articles on history and religion also draw from modern archaeological, historical and scientific sources.
Many adherents of a religion will object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith, claiming that this somehow discriminates against their religious beliefs. They would prefer that the articles describe their faith as they see it, which is often from a non-historical perspective (e.g. the way things are is the way things have always been; any differences are from heretical sects that don't represent the real religion.)
Giving "equal validity" But wait. I find the optimism about science vs. pseudo-science to be baseless. History has shown that pseudo-science can beat out facts, as those who rely on pseudo-science use lies, slander, innuendo and numerical majorities of followers to force their views on anyone they can. If this project gives equal validity to those who literally claim that the Earth is flat, or those who claim that the Holocaust never occurred, the result is that it will (inadvertently) legitimize and help promote that which only can be termed evil. Please be clear on one thing: the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. It does state that we must not take a stand on them qua encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory; from describing the strong moral repugnance that many people feel toward some morally repugnant views; and so forth. See this humorous illustration of the "equal validity" issue. Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete The neutrality policy is used sometimes as an excuse to delete texts that are perceived as biased. Isn't this a problem?
In many cases, yes. Many of us believe that the fact that some text is biased is not enough, in itself, to delete it outright. If it contains valid information, the text should simply be edited accordingly.
There's sometimes trouble determining whether some claim is true or useful, particularly when there are few people on board who know about the topic. In such a case, it's a good idea to raise objections on a talk page; if one has some reason to believe that the author of the biased material will not be induced to change it, we have sometimes taken to removing the text to the talk page itself (but not deleting it entirely). But the latter should be done more or less as a last resort, never as a way of punishing people who have written something biased.
Avoiding constant disputes
How can we avoid constant and endless warfare over neutrality issues? The best way to avoid warfare over bias is to remember that most of us are reasonably intelligent, articulate people here, or we wouldn't be working on this and caring so much about it. We have to make it our goal to understand each others' perspectives and to work hard to make sure that those other perspectives are fairly represented. When any dispute arises as to what the article should say, or what is true, we must not adopt an adversarial stance; we must do our best to step back and ask ourselves, "How can this dispute be fairly characterized?" This has to be asked repeatedly as each new controversial point is stated. It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all-comers; it is our job to work together, mainly adding or improving content, but also, when necessary, coming to a compromise about how a controversy should be described, so that it is fair to all sides.
Making necessary assumptions What about the case where, in order to write any of a long series of articles on some general subject, we must make some controversial assumptions? That's the case, e.g., in writing about evolution. Surely we won't have to hash out the evolution-vs.-creationism debate on every such page?
No, surely not. There are virtually no topics that could proceed without making some assumptions that someone would find controversial. This is true not only in evolutionary biology, but also philosophy, history, physics, etc.
Some brief, unobtrusive pointer might be apropos, however. E.g., in an article about the evolutionary development of horses, we might have one brief sentence to the effect that some creationists do not believe that horses (or any other animals) underwent any evolution, and point the reader to the relevant article. If there is much specific argument over some particular point, it might be placed on a special page of its own.
It's important to note that this level of objectivity is rather new to most people, and disputes over the proper terms may simply depend on the balance of points of view.
Gio, Balinda, etc.: Here's a suggestion which could save you from revert violations and watching your edits be reverted by myself or by others. Please note that a consensus means not a "work in progress" (which really defines all of Wikipedia), but an agreement by both/all sides regarding a change. So, before making an edit, please go over it here, on the talk page, to see what "the other side" thinks of the proposal. Perhaps we can tweak the language and come up with a version everyone can live with...then we can add it and it truly would be consensual. Many of your edits/reverts were made with an edit summary claiming "consensus" where none existed. We can avoid this in the future if you discuss things here first and gain a clear consensus before making such obviously problematic changes. This is just a suggestion. Thanks... KHM03 18:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree that some of the information that some have preferred to enter needs to be put on the Early Christianity page; however, a brief statment with a reference to the appropriate article should be an acceptable alternative rather then nothing at all. As far as reverts go, except for vandalism, I see too many on both sides of the issue and there are no angels. We have gotten much too liberal in what we revert; often it seems to be more out of laziness. I would prefer to see no reverts, except for vandalism, from anyone at this time. If it is something you disagree with, edit by adding a corresponding point with references. I know that this adds a lot of work for everyone, but it ensures that no editor feels like MikaM and Sophia above. Their point is well taken; when you have several editors "defending" their turf as aggressively as this page has been, newcomers can feel very unwelcome and that is unacceptable. One caveat to my advice is that controversial edits should be discussed first and other/all edits need to be referenced. Compromise is difficult and demands a lot of each participant; I am not sure we are there yet, but I like the direction we are taking. It will be much better when Gio and others return. Then we will see if real progress has been made. Storm Rider 06:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
One comment I do want to suggest for a change, and which I've never been happy with in the orthodox version is the statment "Christianity also had to deal with internal heresies, especially the Gnostics (who believed that salvation came through secret knowledge),..." To me this sounds too POV, as if we are speaking from the point of view of the Chruch, who had to "deal with internal heresies." Well they are only heresies from the POV of the Church. Man of the groupd that came to be labled heresies was a matter of sometimes just one vote. To the Gnostic Christians, the other side was the false belief, and they were the true Christians. By calling the Gnostics heresies that had to be dealt "dealt" with by the Chruch takes one POV and makes it seem like this other branch in early Christianty were a problem to be dealth with. This POV language can be corrected to something like "which the Chruch at such and such time, declared them to be "heresies," but Gnostic Christians, like others groups in the Christian movment, also considered themselves to be the one and true Christianity." I hope my objections make sense. Other issues in general that I dont like are when things are spoken of in static terms, instead of historical, dyanamic, and other terms that connote emergence, and lack of finality. So instea of just starting out, I prefer emerge. Its more historical as it suggests coming out of what was before, insteas of just dropping from the sky in a vacuume. There are other examples in the text prefered by the other side as contrasted with my version. I just thought to explain my objections on this point. Giovanni33 03:21, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Another section I'd like to hash out is the one about characterizing the resulting state sponsored Christian orthodoxy, as one that emphasised "blind faith, etc." I think its important because in my view it played a prime role in bringing about the Dark Ages, one of the worst periods of human history from an intellectual point of view. I knew this would be probably incite provocation so I included it not as a fact per se but used the voice of three scholars who said this to represent this point of view, the view itself a statment of fact. I know Str1977 dismissed this as false, a legend from the Enlightenment (a saner period in history), and said it can never stand, etc. Well, to supress it I'd like to see support for your claim that refutes this from other scholars, and show that this view is fringe and discredited. I happen to think its a signifiant point of view, which therefore should be fairly chracterized and represented, along with the other point of view, that disagrees. This would make it NPOV. What say all ye fellow editors on both isles of the fence? Thanks. Giovanni33 03:42, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the "blind faith" quote was way over the line in terms of POV; can another quote be found (by a reputable authority on Christian history, of course) which communicates that thought in a less POV manner? Also: does the mystery religion article, which we should provide a link to, provide links to the various mystery religions you had wanted to list? KHM03 12:28, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I always thought that the Dionysian rites were the mystery cult "par excellence". KHM03 19:39, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Mika, it is one thing to state what happened in history, but it is another to interpret that history. For example, above you state what Thomas may have taught, but then you go on to state that it was a "very reactionary institution that was intolerant of anyone who deviated from their dogma and advocated such people be murdered, not to mention justification for other brutal and opppressive practices like slavery." I would call this type of history reconstructionist...it is looking at history through the perspective of today's social morays. You open a can of worms that you don't address: what was happening in other societies? Was slavery practiced elsewhere? How did other people raise their children? How were minority religions treated elsewhere in the world? It is so POV that it is unjustified and really seems more like grinding your axe, rather than improving the article. I suggest if you want to cite the thoughts of early historic church fathers (it would be best to handle in their respective articles), but don't attempt to interpret them or spin them to meet your POV; just simply state what happened in history. Does this make sense? Storm Rider 08:27, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Ann. I just wanted put you on notice with this warning incase you are not aware it. You blocked me for the violation and claimed you seldom revert yourself, which I disputed. Here I present evidence where, as is usual, you revert back to Str1977's version. I also note that there is no case made for this version while the other side has made a case and has asked that the disagreements be worked outinstead of edit warring. There is no response yet on the talk page for days about this dispute from your side that wants this version. I suggest you stop edit warring, and ask that those who support your side (seems to be only Str1977),at least make their case instead of blindly reverting, along with you following him, which suggests a possible meat puppet.
Thanks. Giovanni33 21:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, thanks for undoing your 4th revert, back to the other version, which is widely accepted, is not inaccurate, and is not fringe. I don't know anyone who even claims that anymore and I think you are following the argument about another issue. And, ofcourse if no one challenges an established bias and POV, there is no need to enforce that one sided POV. That goes without saying.
This particular dispute pertains to a compromised version of my original White quote about the nature of the new Orhodox version of Christinaity after it assumed that status as the state religion. Specifically, the point is that it was particularly intolerant. Str1977 only objected to this final version on the grounds that the point is already made in the Persecutions section and that the quote was not attributed. This was fixed by Belinda, and this compromised version which was introduced by Mika was restored, and I note that most of what I wanted was not included. So it was added by Belinda after addressing the point raised by Str. This was after the original version that I wanted by White, was objected to as too POV by KH03, but who agreed that the idea could still be represented, just with another source. After the latest objection was addressed and (attribution and redundancy) it was included. There was no more responses from Str1977 or anyone. However he kept reverting, with you helping him. This is how this latest edit warring started again, and the communication breakdown is clearly on one side's fault.
Your analogy about Shakespear does not apply to this situation at all. If it does, please make the case. The original claims about my original contributions also have never been supported with references to back up that charge. But its moot now since I think it better fits in Early Christianity. Your exmample of my supposed claim that Galileo was tortured (from another article) is not valid since I corrected myself saying that what I meant was that he was under the threat of torture, and that was was done to him is considered by some to be tantamount to tortue. But, that is not an issue, here, either. About the meatpuppet, I did not know. I thought simply blinding reverting based on what someone else does without any arguments being made, just to support them, is what was meant by a meatpuppet. So I'm sorry if I was wrong about the use of that term, which you used to describe Belinda. Giovanni33 22:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
I want to go over some of the changes I made to try to accurately characterize the positions fairly, and some change to improve the NPOV language. Finally, removal of some sections which could be combined, removing redundancies.
It orginally said "scholarship suggests that Christianity may have also emerged, in part and out of the various mystery teachings that existed in Greece and the Middle East in antiquity, such as Gnosticism and various mystery cults. Among those that may have had an influence on the form, language and doctrines of Christianity include the Nasseni, Essenes, Therapeutae, Gnostics, Dionysus, and there is much speculation..."
I changed this by introducing a brief statment that this is a minority view in Christian scholarship, but common in secular sholarship that "Chistianity was also strongly influenced by the mystery religions of the Greco-Roman world and the Near East in which it developed. Among those that may have had an influence on the form, language and doctrines of Christianity include Gnosticism, the Nasseni, Essenes, Therapeutae, Dionysus, and various mystery cults."
Notice how above it states mystery teaching twice needlessly, and does not characterize the fact that this is just a view among secular scholars. My changes characterize the positions and removes redunancies.
I also changed, Professor Barry Powell, and others, argue that many elements of Christianity were also influenced by the cult of Dionysus.
To the more accurately worded,
Many scholars, such as Professor Barry Powell, argue that the cult of Dionysus played a signifiant influuencing role in the development of Christianity.
I also noted that when I quote scholars points of view, as long as it says , "According to -x---, such and such influenced.." it can be stated as a fact. Even if its their opinion, its factual. since we are only stating what so and so scholars said. There is no need to add words such as "alleged" in their statments unless we get rid of "According to...." Then its needed. Ofcourse, we can quote scholars from the other point of view, too, if they refute these the view points. Giovanni33 10:41, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
No, Giovanni. There is no such thing as "secular" scholarship - don't try to paint those scholars who don't subscribe to the views quoted by you as "religious"/"Christian" and therefore dubious.
Although a minority view among mainstream Christan scholarship, its is commonly accepted in secular academic circles that ..
It isn't possible to seperate this into two fields. And while theories about the influence of MCs are common to scholarship no one theory or all of the together are "commonly accepted", nor is a "Christianity started out as a MC" common - the common theories consider MCs an influence and not a starting point.
I agree with you quoting scholars in principle and would advise against weasel words such as alleged unless it is absolutely necessary. But keep in mind the overview character of this section here - but at the moment I am a bit liberal on this, as Early Christianity might benefit from this. Str1977 10:51, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Str, lets try to review changes here, esp. any drastic changes before making them in the main page, because it looks like we are both working at the same time. Giovanni33 11:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Str, I took to heart your suggestion and removed the mention of any division of secular and christian scholars, with this new text: "Although some of the attributed influences are a minority view among mainstream scholarship, its is commonly accepted in academic circles that Chistianity was also strongly influenced by the mystery religions of the Greco-Roman world and the Near East in which it developed."
What do you think? Giovanni33 11:16, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
It is a feasible starting point and I will include it for the moment, as I have to leave shortly. But I will get back to you soon. Str1977 11:33, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Ann, maybe you are a loss to understand because you have not been following the talk page. For most of the evening editors have been working on the new content. We are making significant progress. All of a suddent its all removed and are again back to square one--if this is left up. This is not a new proposed policy by anyone its what was working and apparently consensus among editors since they did not revert but choose to contribute with their edits. In just one day of doing this its markedly improved. Now you would have us go back to this old version which a matter of contention because you claims we dont have consensus yet? Are you the defender of the old order until we reach some undefined consensus (we have to take a vote before making changes?). Removing material that several editors are working on based on compromises taking place here on the talk page is counter productive. And, on I did not make any reverts using my IP address within the last 24 hours as you claim. BelindaGong 12:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that we can all benefit reviewing the Wiki policy on NPOV. I know we all think we know it, but in practice, I think many of us can slip back into non encylopedic mind frames. I excerted several sections and include them below so that we can review this and see how it applies to solving the ongoing conflicts here. I feel that if we did follow these guidelines from the start we would have avoided a lot of needless edit conficts. I think Storm Rider tact refects the a Wiki NPOV stance, and I hope that after reading the text below, we can all come to an agreement with him about allowing the content I've been advocating inclusion for. Giovanni33 08:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Articles should be written without bias, representing all majority and significant minority views fairly. This is the neutral point of view policy. Articles without bias describe debates fairly instead of advocating any side of the debate. Since all articles are edited by people, this is difficult, as people are inherently biased. . What people believe is a matter of objective fact, and we can present that quite easily from the neutral point of view.
A solution is that we accept, for the purposes of working on Wikipedia, that "human knowledge" includes all different significant theories on all different topics. So we're committed to the goal of representing human knowledge in that sense.
Nearly every view on every subject will be found among our authors and readers. To avoid endless edit wars, we can agree to present each of the significant views fairly, and not assert any one of them as correct. That is what makes an article "unbiased" or "neutral" in the sense we are presenting here. To write from a neutral point of view, one presents controversial views without asserting them; to do that, it generally suffices to present competing views in a way that is more or less acceptable to their adherents, and also to attribute the views to their adherents. Disputes are characterized in Wikipedia. They are not re-enacted. We should, both individually and collectively, make an effort to present these conflicting views fairly.
There is another reason to commit ourselves to this policy. Namely, when it is clear to readers that we do not expect them to adopt any particular opinion, this leaves them free to make up their minds for themselves, thus encouraging intellectual independence. The presentation of many competing theories on a wide variety of subjects suggests that we, the creators of Wikipedia, trust readers' competence to form their own opinions themselves. Texts that present multiple viewpoints fairly, without demanding that the reader accept any one of them, are liberating. Neutrality subverts dogmatism, and nearly everyone working on Wikipedia can agree this is a good thing.
Unbiased writing does not present only the most popular view. Presenting all points of view says, more or less, that p-ists believe that p, and q-ists believe that q, and that's where the debate stands at present. Ideally, presenting all points of view also gives a great deal of background on who believes that p and q and why, and which view is more popular (being careful not to associate popularity with correctness). Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of the p-ists and the q-ists, allowing each side to give its "best shot" at the other, but studiously refraining from saying who won the exchange.
A point here bears elaboration. We said that the neutral point of view is not, contrary to the seeming implication of the phrase, some actual point of view that is "neutral" or "intermediate" among the different positions. That represents a particular understanding of what "neutral point of view" means. The prevailing Wikipedia understanding is that the neutral point of view is not a point of view at all; according to our understanding, when one writes neutrally, one is very careful not to state (or imply or insinuate or subtly massage the reader into believing) that any particular view at all is correct.
Another point bears elaboration as well. Writing unbiasedly can be conceived very well as representing disputes, characterizing them, rather than engaging in them.
Undue weight Now an important qualification. Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties.
· If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; · If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
Bias
Bias need not be conscious. For example, beginners in a field often fail to realize that what sounds like common sense is actually biased in favor of one particular view. The policy of having a neutral point of view is not to hide different points of view, but to show the diversity of viewpoints. In case of controversy, the strong points and weak points will be shown according to each point of view, without taking a side. The neutral point of view is not a "separate but equal" policy. The facts, in themselves, are neutral, but the simple accumulation of them cannot be the neutral point of view. If only the favorable (or the unfavorable) facts of a point of view are shown in an article, the article will still be non-neutral.
We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves. Certainly, there are bound to be borderline cases where a fact is disputed but we're not sure if we should take the dispute seriously, or where the distinction between fact and value will itself necessarily be in dispute. Nevertheless, there are many propositions that clearly express undisputed facts, and others that clearly express values or opinions. That a survey produced a certain published result is a fact.
In presenting an opinion, moreover, it is important to bear in mind that there are disagreements about how opinions are best stated; sometimes, it will be necessary to qualify the description of an opinion or to present several formulations, simply to arrive at a solution that fairly represents all the leading views of the situation. But it's not enough, to express the Wikipedia non-bias policy, just to say that we should state facts and not opinions. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It's also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It's often best to cite a prominent representative of the view. Disagreements over whether something is approached the Neutral Point Of View (NPOV) way can usually be avoided through the practice of good research. Facts (as defined in the previous paragraph) are not Points Of View in and of themselves. A good way to help building a neutral point of view is to find a reputable source for the piece of information you want to add to wikipedia, and then cite that source. This is an easy way to characterize a side of a debate without excluding that the debate has other sides. The trick is to find the best and most reputable sources you can.
The only other important consideration is that sources of comparable reputability might contradict. In that case the core of the NPOV policy is to let competing approaches of the same topic exist on the same page: work for balance, that is: divide space describing the opposing viewpoints according to reputability of the sources. And, when available, give precedence to those sources that have been the most successful in presenting facts in an equally balanced manner.
We should, instead, write articles with the tone that all positions presented are at least plausible, bearing in mind the important qualification about extreme minority views. Let's present all significant, competing views sympathetically. We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a good idea, except that, in the view of some detractors, the supporters of said view overlooked such-and-such a detail. There are numerous other success stories of articles that began life as virtual partisan screeds but were nicely cleaned up by people who concerned themselves with representing all views clearly and sympathetically.
The policy is simply that we should characterize disputes rather than engage in them. all the major participants will be able to look at the resulting text, agreeing that their views are presented sympathetically and as completely as possible (within the context of the discussion).
Neutrality dictates that there can be multiple prominent interpretations to the meaning or validity of a work, but often the contents can be objectively verified, especially in the case of modern documents.
If we're going to represent the sum total of human knowledge, then we must concede that we will be describing views repugnant to us without asserting that they are false. The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly.
Religion
NPOV policy often means presenting multiple points of view. This means providing not only the points of view of different groups today, but also different groups in the past. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. One important task for encyclopedias is to explain things. In the case of human beliefs and practices, explanation encompasses not only what motivates individuals who hold these beliefs and practices, but an account of how such beliefs and practices came to be and took shape. Wikipedia articles on history and religion draw from a religion's sacred texts. But Wikipedia articles on history and religion also draw from modern archaeological, historical and scientific sources.
Many adherents of a religion will object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith, claiming that this somehow discriminates against their religious beliefs. They would prefer that the articles describe their faith as they see it, which is often from a non-historical perspective (e.g. the way things are is the way things have always been; any differences are from heretical sects that don't represent the real religion.)
Giving "equal validity" But wait. I find the optimism about science vs. pseudo-science to be baseless. History has shown that pseudo-science can beat out facts, as those who rely on pseudo-science use lies, slander, innuendo and numerical majorities of followers to force their views on anyone they can. If this project gives equal validity to those who literally claim that the Earth is flat, or those who claim that the Holocaust never occurred, the result is that it will (inadvertently) legitimize and help promote that which only can be termed evil. Please be clear on one thing: the Wikipedia neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. It does state that we must not take a stand on them qua encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory; from describing the strong moral repugnance that many people feel toward some morally repugnant views; and so forth. See this humorous illustration of the "equal validity" issue. Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete The neutrality policy is used sometimes as an excuse to delete texts that are perceived as biased. Isn't this a problem?
In many cases, yes. Many of us believe that the fact that some text is biased is not enough, in itself, to delete it outright. If it contains valid information, the text should simply be edited accordingly.
There's sometimes trouble determining whether some claim is true or useful, particularly when there are few people on board who know about the topic. In such a case, it's a good idea to raise objections on a talk page; if one has some reason to believe that the author of the biased material will not be induced to change it, we have sometimes taken to removing the text to the talk page itself (but not deleting it entirely). But the latter should be done more or less as a last resort, never as a way of punishing people who have written something biased.
Avoiding constant disputes
How can we avoid constant and endless warfare over neutrality issues? The best way to avoid warfare over bias is to remember that most of us are reasonably intelligent, articulate people here, or we wouldn't be working on this and caring so much about it. We have to make it our goal to understand each others' perspectives and to work hard to make sure that those other perspectives are fairly represented. When any dispute arises as to what the article should say, or what is true, we must not adopt an adversarial stance; we must do our best to step back and ask ourselves, "How can this dispute be fairly characterized?" This has to be asked repeatedly as each new controversial point is stated. It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all-comers; it is our job to work together, mainly adding or improving content, but also, when necessary, coming to a compromise about how a controversy should be described, so that it is fair to all sides.
Making necessary assumptions What about the case where, in order to write any of a long series of articles on some general subject, we must make some controversial assumptions? That's the case, e.g., in writing about evolution. Surely we won't have to hash out the evolution-vs.-creationism debate on every such page?
No, surely not. There are virtually no topics that could proceed without making some assumptions that someone would find controversial. This is true not only in evolutionary biology, but also philosophy, history, physics, etc.
Some brief, unobtrusive pointer might be apropos, however. E.g., in an article about the evolutionary development of horses, we might have one brief sentence to the effect that some creationists do not believe that horses (or any other animals) underwent any evolution, and point the reader to the relevant article. If there is much specific argument over some particular point, it might be placed on a special page of its own.
It's important to note that this level of objectivity is rather new to most people, and disputes over the proper terms may simply depend on the balance of points of view.
Gio, Balinda, etc.: Here's a suggestion which could save you from revert violations and watching your edits be reverted by myself or by others. Please note that a consensus means not a "work in progress" (which really defines all of Wikipedia), but an agreement by both/all sides regarding a change. So, before making an edit, please go over it here, on the talk page, to see what "the other side" thinks of the proposal. Perhaps we can tweak the language and come up with a version everyone can live with...then we can add it and it truly would be consensual. Many of your edits/reverts were made with an edit summary claiming "consensus" where none existed. We can avoid this in the future if you discuss things here first and gain a clear consensus before making such obviously problematic changes. This is just a suggestion. Thanks... KHM03 18:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree that some of the information that some have preferred to enter needs to be put on the Early Christianity page; however, a brief statment with a reference to the appropriate article should be an acceptable alternative rather then nothing at all. As far as reverts go, except for vandalism, I see too many on both sides of the issue and there are no angels. We have gotten much too liberal in what we revert; often it seems to be more out of laziness. I would prefer to see no reverts, except for vandalism, from anyone at this time. If it is something you disagree with, edit by adding a corresponding point with references. I know that this adds a lot of work for everyone, but it ensures that no editor feels like MikaM and Sophia above. Their point is well taken; when you have several editors "defending" their turf as aggressively as this page has been, newcomers can feel very unwelcome and that is unacceptable. One caveat to my advice is that controversial edits should be discussed first and other/all edits need to be referenced. Compromise is difficult and demands a lot of each participant; I am not sure we are there yet, but I like the direction we are taking. It will be much better when Gio and others return. Then we will see if real progress has been made. Storm Rider 06:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
One comment I do want to suggest for a change, and which I've never been happy with in the orthodox version is the statment "Christianity also had to deal with internal heresies, especially the Gnostics (who believed that salvation came through secret knowledge),..." To me this sounds too POV, as if we are speaking from the point of view of the Chruch, who had to "deal with internal heresies." Well they are only heresies from the POV of the Church. Man of the groupd that came to be labled heresies was a matter of sometimes just one vote. To the Gnostic Christians, the other side was the false belief, and they were the true Christians. By calling the Gnostics heresies that had to be dealt "dealt" with by the Chruch takes one POV and makes it seem like this other branch in early Christianty were a problem to be dealth with. This POV language can be corrected to something like "which the Chruch at such and such time, declared them to be "heresies," but Gnostic Christians, like others groups in the Christian movment, also considered themselves to be the one and true Christianity." I hope my objections make sense. Other issues in general that I dont like are when things are spoken of in static terms, instead of historical, dyanamic, and other terms that connote emergence, and lack of finality. So instea of just starting out, I prefer emerge. Its more historical as it suggests coming out of what was before, insteas of just dropping from the sky in a vacuume. There are other examples in the text prefered by the other side as contrasted with my version. I just thought to explain my objections on this point. Giovanni33 03:21, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Another section I'd like to hash out is the one about characterizing the resulting state sponsored Christian orthodoxy, as one that emphasised "blind faith, etc." I think its important because in my view it played a prime role in bringing about the Dark Ages, one of the worst periods of human history from an intellectual point of view. I knew this would be probably incite provocation so I included it not as a fact per se but used the voice of three scholars who said this to represent this point of view, the view itself a statment of fact. I know Str1977 dismissed this as false, a legend from the Enlightenment (a saner period in history), and said it can never stand, etc. Well, to supress it I'd like to see support for your claim that refutes this from other scholars, and show that this view is fringe and discredited. I happen to think its a signifiant point of view, which therefore should be fairly chracterized and represented, along with the other point of view, that disagrees. This would make it NPOV. What say all ye fellow editors on both isles of the fence? Thanks. Giovanni33 03:42, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the "blind faith" quote was way over the line in terms of POV; can another quote be found (by a reputable authority on Christian history, of course) which communicates that thought in a less POV manner? Also: does the mystery religion article, which we should provide a link to, provide links to the various mystery religions you had wanted to list? KHM03 12:28, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I always thought that the Dionysian rites were the mystery cult "par excellence". KHM03 19:39, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Mika, it is one thing to state what happened in history, but it is another to interpret that history. For example, above you state what Thomas may have taught, but then you go on to state that it was a "very reactionary institution that was intolerant of anyone who deviated from their dogma and advocated such people be murdered, not to mention justification for other brutal and opppressive practices like slavery." I would call this type of history reconstructionist...it is looking at history through the perspective of today's social morays. You open a can of worms that you don't address: what was happening in other societies? Was slavery practiced elsewhere? How did other people raise their children? How were minority religions treated elsewhere in the world? It is so POV that it is unjustified and really seems more like grinding your axe, rather than improving the article. I suggest if you want to cite the thoughts of early historic church fathers (it would be best to handle in their respective articles), but don't attempt to interpret them or spin them to meet your POV; just simply state what happened in history. Does this make sense? Storm Rider 08:27, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi Ann. I just wanted put you on notice with this warning incase you are not aware it. You blocked me for the violation and claimed you seldom revert yourself, which I disputed. Here I present evidence where, as is usual, you revert back to Str1977's version. I also note that there is no case made for this version while the other side has made a case and has asked that the disagreements be worked outinstead of edit warring. There is no response yet on the talk page for days about this dispute from your side that wants this version. I suggest you stop edit warring, and ask that those who support your side (seems to be only Str1977),at least make their case instead of blindly reverting, along with you following him, which suggests a possible meat puppet.
Thanks. Giovanni33 21:16, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, thanks for undoing your 4th revert, back to the other version, which is widely accepted, is not inaccurate, and is not fringe. I don't know anyone who even claims that anymore and I think you are following the argument about another issue. And, ofcourse if no one challenges an established bias and POV, there is no need to enforce that one sided POV. That goes without saying.
This particular dispute pertains to a compromised version of my original White quote about the nature of the new Orhodox version of Christinaity after it assumed that status as the state religion. Specifically, the point is that it was particularly intolerant. Str1977 only objected to this final version on the grounds that the point is already made in the Persecutions section and that the quote was not attributed. This was fixed by Belinda, and this compromised version which was introduced by Mika was restored, and I note that most of what I wanted was not included. So it was added by Belinda after addressing the point raised by Str. This was after the original version that I wanted by White, was objected to as too POV by KH03, but who agreed that the idea could still be represented, just with another source. After the latest objection was addressed and (attribution and redundancy) it was included. There was no more responses from Str1977 or anyone. However he kept reverting, with you helping him. This is how this latest edit warring started again, and the communication breakdown is clearly on one side's fault.
Your analogy about Shakespear does not apply to this situation at all. If it does, please make the case. The original claims about my original contributions also have never been supported with references to back up that charge. But its moot now since I think it better fits in Early Christianity. Your exmample of my supposed claim that Galileo was tortured (from another article) is not valid since I corrected myself saying that what I meant was that he was under the threat of torture, and that was was done to him is considered by some to be tantamount to tortue. But, that is not an issue, here, either. About the meatpuppet, I did not know. I thought simply blinding reverting based on what someone else does without any arguments being made, just to support them, is what was meant by a meatpuppet. So I'm sorry if I was wrong about the use of that term, which you used to describe Belinda. Giovanni33 22:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)