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This article is obviously written from the perspective of a "Christian punk" fan and needs to be edited for NPOV. sɪzlæk [ +t, +c ] 23:26, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
Christian punk is an oxymoron in that it contrasts with the establishment of religion compared to the anarchistic or anti-establishment attitude of punk. As such, it should be specified not as its own genre but instead fit into a typical Christian Rock category. Despite how the bands' music sounds, they merely reflect the fashion and sound of a particular genre; however, they do not include the ideology that embraces punk rock--namely that of an anti-establishment attitude.
I'll offer to edit this to make it more NPOV if time allows. Although I'm Christian I think I have a good feel for the punk ethos and can write about different views of punk's [non]-compatibility with Chrisitanity.
Also, the original selection of example bands is not IMO the best, representing present-day pop-punk. Without meaning to start a revert/flame war, let me just say that there are several Xtian bands more representative of what I would consider "authentic" punk or hardcore punk, e.g. The Crucified, Ninety Pound Wuss, Crux, even some older MxPx (although they eventually went the pop-punk route). In other words, I just think this article needs work all around.
Also should include Tooth & Nail Records although that article has very little history right now.
- PhilipR 14:56, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Protest is Patriotism!
OK, I just did a brain dump out on the main page. A little bit's in complete sentences; the rest is just a bunch of names, links, etc. Ordinarily I wouldn't be so bold, and instead would suggest my sweeping changes here in Talk, but
However, I don't want to delete others' work lightly, so I've tried to merge it in the skeleton where appropriate and move it to the bottom otherwise. Of course I yield to the community's judgement in whether I'm improving or ruining the article. -- PhilipR 01:31, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This was moved from the article page and is presented here to facilitate any discussion of possibly re-incorporating this content in the article in one way or another.
Christians are often thought of as kind, perfect, law-abiding people, although some, especially teenagers, are not. Most teenagers are somewhat rebellious and different, and Christian teens do not differ most of the time.
There are all sorts of
Christian music, not just
gospel, like many people think. Many bands that have gone to the mainstream music, consider themselves Christian bands. Many people are surprised to hear that their favorite punk bands are Christian-based.
Christian punk is an oxymoron since it goes against the anti establishment do what you want attitude that embodies punk rock. Simply by calling Switchfoot, Relient K even a sub genre of punk rock proves it is not. Switchfoot is a praise/ worship band and Relient K heralds back to days of barbershop quartets, updated with electric guitars. FM Static is, if you must fit it into a secular genre is pop punk, MTV's current genre of the decade.
I removed this claim:
The 1980s was the decade of the Dead Kennedys, The Clash, Bad Religion, The Ramones, Crass, etc., and is generally (with the late 1970s) considered the period of its greatest strength; hardly a "marginal genre". -- Delirium 08:45, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
QUESTION: Have you guys tried to interview christian punk bands from the early 80's and ask them how the scene started? Don't confuse the Orange County pseudo-new wave-pop scene (Undercover, Alter Boys, etc.) as punk rock, please.
I'm fairly certain by 80s, the original statement meant 1984-1989. And for the record, the "impact" and "importance" of punk in the early 80s, especially the west-coast stuff, is greatly exaggerated when observed retrospectively. 149.43.x.x 18:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Jacques Ellul's Anarchy and Christianity' enjoys a special status as one of the first books to link Christianity and anarchism
Do you know the first thing about anarchism and anarchist history?! Have you not heard of Leo Tolstoy?! Second, I doubt many of these bands are anarchists since few punks are real anarchists (merely rebelious teens who like to be iconoclastic). BTW I'm a teen anarchist punk so I have the right to say that. Most are just out to piss people off and think yelling "anarchy" is a good way to do that. Pop-punk bands like Relient K, MxPx and FM Static definetley aren't anarchists at all (though the article never said that).
Are we keeping these lists together or separate? We used to have two band lists, one for punk one for poppunk. Someone then incorrectly changed the "poppunk" heading to "punk" (so now there were two titles with "punk". Eventually, bands in this second punk section (formerly poppunk section) were moved to the first (main) punk section. Since poppunk and punk are pretty different, I suggest making pop punk a category again. EdGl 06:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I just took out a bunch of POV comments from the article, but since it's a lot of stuff maybe it will be of use for future edits. (note: I will keep the "anti-christian punk" external link in the article, just not the first link, for pete's sake!)
"Some may still argue that punk is anti-religious and thus in opposition to Christianity. Many Christian punks do not agree with religion either. They say that real Christianity is not a religion because it's not supposed to be about rituals and rules. They believe true Christianity's a relationship with Jesus, not a religion. Many Christian punks are against religion like other punks, yet they are strongly in support of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ separate from rules and tradition.
Most people involved in punk will point out there are many other contradictions between Christianity and punk, as Christianity is against sex, homosexuality, feminism, and tattoos - all of which are commonplace and accepted in the Punk Scene. While some claim not everything in the Bible is relevant, Joe Hays points out in HeartattaCk #22 that, "It would be a total cop-out to say that you don't agree with everything Christianity preaches. It would be the same thing as someone saying that they're straightedge, but they smoke." And Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus makes it perfectly clear that his mission does not invalidate the complex, bigoted rules and regulations of the Old Testament: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I say to you, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." If you don't know already, the Pharisees were an extremely legalistic, nitpicking set of religious scholars who were always debating about the minutiae of divine law. Also, some Christians believe that the "until all is accomplished" part refers to Jesus' ascension into heaven, but it seems obvious that Jesus is referring to Judgement Day and the end of the world."
Why is Christian punk (similarly, Christian metal, Christian hardcore/metalcore) listed as a subgenre of punk (or whatever)? There is no musical difference between the two, only sometimes a difference lyrical content. See Music genre. There's no reason that I see to consider any of these things as musically distinct from the typical genre into which they fall. The distinction is drawn along social/cultural lines, not musical ones. 149.43.x.x 21:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
"see their audience as the general public" -- This sounds like a POV clause intended to privilege a certain subset of Christian punk music -- that music intended for a not-primarily-Xtian audience -- over another subset. I don't have much use for CCM, and personally I hate the fact that so much of it is just a marketing segment. But I can't in good conscience see any reason why a band playing three-chord music that's vaguely punk in their presentation/ethos/whatever should be excluded from the scope of this article just because their audience is mostly Christians. I do think it's an important distinction that should figure early in the article, but I find the present way of handling it a bit clumsy and probably not NPOV. I grant this is a slippery slope that's going to lead to all kinds of assorted issues, e.g. "Is pop-punk really punk?" that have probably been dealt with. But AFAIK Wikipedia should keep out of the business of arbitrating what "real punk" is. Thoughts? - PhilipR 05:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
It's unsourced, unsubstantiated, and I don't think such a statement could ever be anything but speculative. -- Cheeser1 03:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Seems to me that requiring a citation for just about every sentence is a little overboard. (Almost like the work of someone biased against this particular genre). Compare, if you will, this page with Skate Punk, where many similar claims are made, but no further evidence is required. DumberDrummer 18:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Please note that User:The Crying Orc has added citation tags ad nasueam to both the Christian Punk and Christian Metal. While I have to admit both of them deserved it in some of the places where it was added, it was done in a vandalous fashion on the Christian Metal page. -- Lim e tom 07:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that the lead should probably get a complete rewirte. The first sentance is the really only "lead"-like part of it, with the rest probably belonging in its own section(s). Everything else, excluding the related genres bit, would fit a lot better in its own section, possibly called "Acceptance" or somesuch, and it could deal with Christian Punk's acceptance in the Punk scene and among Christians. The related genres bit is not nessecary, especially with the nice little Christian Music template already in use. -- Lim e tom 07:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
How many times can a form of the word "explicit" be used in a paragraph? The opening paragraph definitely needs to be tweaked. I would even disagree with the definition in the first sentence; not all Christian punk bands have explicitly Christian lyrics. In fact, most Christian punk bands do not have very overtly Christian lyrics at all. — EdGl 00:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I changed the first sentence slightly; I just didn't know whether to put "...[with] some degree [of Christian lyrics]..." or "...[with] varying degrees [of Christian lyrics]...". Comments or opinions are encouraged. — EdGl 18:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
One Bad Pig is probably a band worth mentioning in the early history of Christian punk; they were signed to a pretty major Christian label ( Myrrh Records) and were the subject of some controversy, as highlighted by their first demo in 1986, A Christian Banned, and their section in the Christian Rock: Blessing or Blasphemy? tract. -- Idont Havaname ( Talk) 00:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
And now it pays off: Christian ska. Dan, the CowMan ( talk) 04:47, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I found that this article was quite biased toward Christian pop-punk bands, drawing most of its illustrations from Krystal Meyers and Relient K, whose punk status is quite dubious when compared next to old school punk acts. I'm trying to flesh out the article's section on "Christian and punk?" with mentions of old-school Christian punk bands' stances on organized religion and politics. -- Idont Havaname ( Talk) 01:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Don't you think Flatfoot 56 is less Punk, and more christcore? Same goes for demon hunter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadow Titan ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Flatfoot 56 is a bit hardcore, but i would definitely say they ARE punk, and a very very unique style of punk also. Celtic punk. Has anybody ever heard of CHRISTIAN Celtic punk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.20.224.250 ( talk) 00:46, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I removed Cornerstone Festival from the History section because it didn't fit/I didn't know how it fit in with the paragraph it was in. It seems to be an important music festival for Christian punk, so I think it should be mentioned somewhere... ideas? ~EdGl ★ 19:01, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
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"Positive Punk" currently redirects here, which is clearly wrong. That term is more straight edge. CAVincent ( talk) 02:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Christian punk article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is obviously written from the perspective of a "Christian punk" fan and needs to be edited for NPOV. sɪzlæk [ +t, +c ] 23:26, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
Christian punk is an oxymoron in that it contrasts with the establishment of religion compared to the anarchistic or anti-establishment attitude of punk. As such, it should be specified not as its own genre but instead fit into a typical Christian Rock category. Despite how the bands' music sounds, they merely reflect the fashion and sound of a particular genre; however, they do not include the ideology that embraces punk rock--namely that of an anti-establishment attitude.
I'll offer to edit this to make it more NPOV if time allows. Although I'm Christian I think I have a good feel for the punk ethos and can write about different views of punk's [non]-compatibility with Chrisitanity.
Also, the original selection of example bands is not IMO the best, representing present-day pop-punk. Without meaning to start a revert/flame war, let me just say that there are several Xtian bands more representative of what I would consider "authentic" punk or hardcore punk, e.g. The Crucified, Ninety Pound Wuss, Crux, even some older MxPx (although they eventually went the pop-punk route). In other words, I just think this article needs work all around.
Also should include Tooth & Nail Records although that article has very little history right now.
- PhilipR 14:56, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Protest is Patriotism!
OK, I just did a brain dump out on the main page. A little bit's in complete sentences; the rest is just a bunch of names, links, etc. Ordinarily I wouldn't be so bold, and instead would suggest my sweeping changes here in Talk, but
However, I don't want to delete others' work lightly, so I've tried to merge it in the skeleton where appropriate and move it to the bottom otherwise. Of course I yield to the community's judgement in whether I'm improving or ruining the article. -- PhilipR 01:31, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This was moved from the article page and is presented here to facilitate any discussion of possibly re-incorporating this content in the article in one way or another.
Christians are often thought of as kind, perfect, law-abiding people, although some, especially teenagers, are not. Most teenagers are somewhat rebellious and different, and Christian teens do not differ most of the time.
There are all sorts of
Christian music, not just
gospel, like many people think. Many bands that have gone to the mainstream music, consider themselves Christian bands. Many people are surprised to hear that their favorite punk bands are Christian-based.
Christian punk is an oxymoron since it goes against the anti establishment do what you want attitude that embodies punk rock. Simply by calling Switchfoot, Relient K even a sub genre of punk rock proves it is not. Switchfoot is a praise/ worship band and Relient K heralds back to days of barbershop quartets, updated with electric guitars. FM Static is, if you must fit it into a secular genre is pop punk, MTV's current genre of the decade.
I removed this claim:
The 1980s was the decade of the Dead Kennedys, The Clash, Bad Religion, The Ramones, Crass, etc., and is generally (with the late 1970s) considered the period of its greatest strength; hardly a "marginal genre". -- Delirium 08:45, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
QUESTION: Have you guys tried to interview christian punk bands from the early 80's and ask them how the scene started? Don't confuse the Orange County pseudo-new wave-pop scene (Undercover, Alter Boys, etc.) as punk rock, please.
I'm fairly certain by 80s, the original statement meant 1984-1989. And for the record, the "impact" and "importance" of punk in the early 80s, especially the west-coast stuff, is greatly exaggerated when observed retrospectively. 149.43.x.x 18:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Jacques Ellul's Anarchy and Christianity' enjoys a special status as one of the first books to link Christianity and anarchism
Do you know the first thing about anarchism and anarchist history?! Have you not heard of Leo Tolstoy?! Second, I doubt many of these bands are anarchists since few punks are real anarchists (merely rebelious teens who like to be iconoclastic). BTW I'm a teen anarchist punk so I have the right to say that. Most are just out to piss people off and think yelling "anarchy" is a good way to do that. Pop-punk bands like Relient K, MxPx and FM Static definetley aren't anarchists at all (though the article never said that).
Are we keeping these lists together or separate? We used to have two band lists, one for punk one for poppunk. Someone then incorrectly changed the "poppunk" heading to "punk" (so now there were two titles with "punk". Eventually, bands in this second punk section (formerly poppunk section) were moved to the first (main) punk section. Since poppunk and punk are pretty different, I suggest making pop punk a category again. EdGl 06:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I just took out a bunch of POV comments from the article, but since it's a lot of stuff maybe it will be of use for future edits. (note: I will keep the "anti-christian punk" external link in the article, just not the first link, for pete's sake!)
"Some may still argue that punk is anti-religious and thus in opposition to Christianity. Many Christian punks do not agree with religion either. They say that real Christianity is not a religion because it's not supposed to be about rituals and rules. They believe true Christianity's a relationship with Jesus, not a religion. Many Christian punks are against religion like other punks, yet they are strongly in support of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ separate from rules and tradition.
Most people involved in punk will point out there are many other contradictions between Christianity and punk, as Christianity is against sex, homosexuality, feminism, and tattoos - all of which are commonplace and accepted in the Punk Scene. While some claim not everything in the Bible is relevant, Joe Hays points out in HeartattaCk #22 that, "It would be a total cop-out to say that you don't agree with everything Christianity preaches. It would be the same thing as someone saying that they're straightedge, but they smoke." And Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus makes it perfectly clear that his mission does not invalidate the complex, bigoted rules and regulations of the Old Testament: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I say to you, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." If you don't know already, the Pharisees were an extremely legalistic, nitpicking set of religious scholars who were always debating about the minutiae of divine law. Also, some Christians believe that the "until all is accomplished" part refers to Jesus' ascension into heaven, but it seems obvious that Jesus is referring to Judgement Day and the end of the world."
Why is Christian punk (similarly, Christian metal, Christian hardcore/metalcore) listed as a subgenre of punk (or whatever)? There is no musical difference between the two, only sometimes a difference lyrical content. See Music genre. There's no reason that I see to consider any of these things as musically distinct from the typical genre into which they fall. The distinction is drawn along social/cultural lines, not musical ones. 149.43.x.x 21:17, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
"see their audience as the general public" -- This sounds like a POV clause intended to privilege a certain subset of Christian punk music -- that music intended for a not-primarily-Xtian audience -- over another subset. I don't have much use for CCM, and personally I hate the fact that so much of it is just a marketing segment. But I can't in good conscience see any reason why a band playing three-chord music that's vaguely punk in their presentation/ethos/whatever should be excluded from the scope of this article just because their audience is mostly Christians. I do think it's an important distinction that should figure early in the article, but I find the present way of handling it a bit clumsy and probably not NPOV. I grant this is a slippery slope that's going to lead to all kinds of assorted issues, e.g. "Is pop-punk really punk?" that have probably been dealt with. But AFAIK Wikipedia should keep out of the business of arbitrating what "real punk" is. Thoughts? - PhilipR 05:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
It's unsourced, unsubstantiated, and I don't think such a statement could ever be anything but speculative. -- Cheeser1 03:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Seems to me that requiring a citation for just about every sentence is a little overboard. (Almost like the work of someone biased against this particular genre). Compare, if you will, this page with Skate Punk, where many similar claims are made, but no further evidence is required. DumberDrummer 18:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Please note that User:The Crying Orc has added citation tags ad nasueam to both the Christian Punk and Christian Metal. While I have to admit both of them deserved it in some of the places where it was added, it was done in a vandalous fashion on the Christian Metal page. -- Lim e tom 07:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I think that the lead should probably get a complete rewirte. The first sentance is the really only "lead"-like part of it, with the rest probably belonging in its own section(s). Everything else, excluding the related genres bit, would fit a lot better in its own section, possibly called "Acceptance" or somesuch, and it could deal with Christian Punk's acceptance in the Punk scene and among Christians. The related genres bit is not nessecary, especially with the nice little Christian Music template already in use. -- Lim e tom 07:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
How many times can a form of the word "explicit" be used in a paragraph? The opening paragraph definitely needs to be tweaked. I would even disagree with the definition in the first sentence; not all Christian punk bands have explicitly Christian lyrics. In fact, most Christian punk bands do not have very overtly Christian lyrics at all. — EdGl 00:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I changed the first sentence slightly; I just didn't know whether to put "...[with] some degree [of Christian lyrics]..." or "...[with] varying degrees [of Christian lyrics]...". Comments or opinions are encouraged. — EdGl 18:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
One Bad Pig is probably a band worth mentioning in the early history of Christian punk; they were signed to a pretty major Christian label ( Myrrh Records) and were the subject of some controversy, as highlighted by their first demo in 1986, A Christian Banned, and their section in the Christian Rock: Blessing or Blasphemy? tract. -- Idont Havaname ( Talk) 00:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
And now it pays off: Christian ska. Dan, the CowMan ( talk) 04:47, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I found that this article was quite biased toward Christian pop-punk bands, drawing most of its illustrations from Krystal Meyers and Relient K, whose punk status is quite dubious when compared next to old school punk acts. I'm trying to flesh out the article's section on "Christian and punk?" with mentions of old-school Christian punk bands' stances on organized religion and politics. -- Idont Havaname ( Talk) 01:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Don't you think Flatfoot 56 is less Punk, and more christcore? Same goes for demon hunter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadow Titan ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Flatfoot 56 is a bit hardcore, but i would definitely say they ARE punk, and a very very unique style of punk also. Celtic punk. Has anybody ever heard of CHRISTIAN Celtic punk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.20.224.250 ( talk) 00:46, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I removed Cornerstone Festival from the History section because it didn't fit/I didn't know how it fit in with the paragraph it was in. It seems to be an important music festival for Christian punk, so I think it should be mentioned somewhere... ideas? ~EdGl ★ 19:01, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
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"Positive Punk" currently redirects here, which is clearly wrong. That term is more straight edge. CAVincent ( talk) 02:36, 5 May 2024 (UTC)