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I noticed the additions made by 211.29.236.172. I don't know who you are or what your name is, 211.29.236.172. But seems that your latest additions show great bias. When I began this entry, I was attempting to remain most objective, simply stating the bare facts about the doctrine of soul sleep, and steering clear of any bias, or leaving the observer to decide for himself or herself. Can I ask why you have imposed your own personal convictions upon this entry, as you have with other entries? Parousia1 01:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I propose that the article be moved (renamed) to "Soul sleep", as this term is more common and more likely to be understood. Arguments, theologians, and denominations could then be clearly labelled as either for or against soul sleep, whereas the term psychopannychism is ambiguous in popular usage, according to the article. -- Colin MacLaurin 19:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a red wikilink on the page to The Church of God Abrahamic Faith. I believe that this refers to one of two existing articles (or possibly both): Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith) and Church of the Blessed Hope, who say they are different but both can be known as "Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith". Which one of these should the link point to, in other words, which one believes in soul sleep? -- Colin MacLaurin 19:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I can confirm that the "Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith)" does believe in 'soul sleep' or "that the soul is not separate from the body and so there is no "spiritual" self to survive bodily death."
I'll see what I can do to give them some representation on this and other related articles if time permits. I'd be interested in dealing with the "largely discredited" portion of the first sentence. Could be my bias talking, but perhaps no less so than the article itself.
Avecrien
21:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
While I was making spelling corrections for the word "rabbinical", I found a misspelling in reference #15. The original link was broken and the correction of the spelling also leads to a broken link. If someone knows where the referenced webpage can be found, please direct #15 to it. Thanks. Aclayartist ( talk) 19:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Would it be possible to use a modern translation for the verses? For instance, the following excerpt uses numerous ancient/extinct words and grammar structures. "yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two" Ansell 09:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Just out of interest I have read through all the pros and cons of the argument. Not wishing to put any bias on the item or sit on either side of the fence here I was just wondering how the first con is supposed to disprove soul sleeping? Just purely out of interest! Cls14 11:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't. None of the Cons do! As soon as a translation uses the word spirit, the intent is that this spirit is supposed to be the "immortal soul". The word spiritus is Latin means the same thing as the Hebrew ruach and Greek pneuma. They all mean "breath", or "air" or "wind". The people of the Biblical times knew nothing of an immortal soul. What they did know is that death was accompanied by the cessation of breathing. Thus when the ancient texts say the body gives up its spirit, the people of the times it was written knew it just meant that the "nephesh" or "air breather" had stopped breathing. when you stop breathing, the body dies as the cells are starved of oxygen. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.
A Seventh-day Adventist theology lecturer told me that "soul sleep" or at least a holistic anthropology is actually the consensus scholarly view, although it is a minority amongst Christians in general. Liberal scholar Rudolf Bultmann was mentioned as the leading example. I hope that these comments can be cited and integrated into the article. Colin MacLaurin 06:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
--
I have been talking to two theology lecturers/experts. If I understand them correctly, they said that the terms "soul sleep", "thetnopsychism" and so on are not used by scholars. They said that "something similar to" soul sleep is actually the majority scholarly view (of Protestants?); specifically a holistic anthropology or holistic view of the innate nature of mankind (i.e. that body, soul and spirit are inseparable). Rudolf Bultmann is the foremost scholar supporting this. He believes that Paul uses Greek terms, but that his worldview is shaped by his Hebrew background. So terms such as soma (body), pneuma (spirit), psuche (soul) and sometimes even sarx (flesh) each refer to the whole person, albeit a particular aspect thereof. Apparently most seminaries around the world would teach this, with some exceptions particularly in the United States. Other leading scholars supporting this view are Jewitt, Kümmel and Ladd. Cullmann is more readable (I will add these to the references on the page).
One must also remember there may be a difference between what the scholars believe the Bible teaches, and between what they actually believe! A liberal scholar may believe that the Bible teaches a particular concept, without believing it themselves. It is logically possible that a Catholic scholar could agree that the Bible teaches the view above, without believing it is true because of tradition etc. (Would a Catholic theology expert please comment if any such Catholic theologians exist). For a conservative Christian (Protestant?) who regards the Bible as the foremost authority, the two will be linked. Hence the article may need to reflect this point, by distinguishing views on what the Bible teaches from views that are ultimately held.
I propose the creation of a new, "parent" page called Christian anthropology, or perhaps Judeo-Christian anthropology would be better, so as not to exclude the Jewish view(s), which is/are a precursor to the Christian views anyway. It would serve as an overview, with links to main articles covering various details. It would cover bipartite (theology) and tripartite views (those articles are currently stubs and could be merged into the new page). Soul and spirit would be key parts of the article (new articles specific to the Judeo-Christian tradition on these topics would be in order, I believe. I looked in some theological dictionaries and found pages of detailed information on the Hebrew and Greek background of the terms, so there is certainly lots of potential content). It would also cover hell in Christian beliefs and related topics. Conditional immortality and annihilation are closely related and would also be covered.
Some expert attention would help to improve these articles (Catholic, Orthodox, liberal Protestant, conservative Protestant etc.) Colin MacLaurin 08:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that this article lacks of the views that scholars have on this subject with references and comments that would shed light on the linguistic and cultural background of the Biblical psychology. I hope that in the near future I would have the time to add some interesting points. One major topic is the nature of the Biblical soul. Another interesting aspect is the history of psychology in Jewish and Patristic thought as regards the immortality of the soul. As regards, now, the English article soul, the diversity of opinions, strongly influenced by dogmatic views, has caused the article to become chaotic.-- Vassilis78 13:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I would really like to see some reference on the condemnation by the Fifth Latern Council. I suspect the presentation here is distorted. dbrookman 4 Nov 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbrookman ( talk • contribs) 01:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Is soul sleep related to conditional immortality? I suspect that it may be roughly equivalent in modern theology. I have heard that conditionalists such as Edward Fudge, Clark Pinnock etc. also believe in the unconscious state of the dead. It wouldn't surprise me if historically the two notions have been distinct. Please answer. Colin MacLaurin 16:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes I believe they are one and the same. I have put a link from the Wiki conditional immorality page to the soul sleep page. I also have added an external link www.afterlife.co.nz. -- Tarnya-burge ( talk) 00:19, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
The section on Contradicting Bible verses contains a line of unsourced and opinionated commentary after each verse. This violates both WP:OR and WP:NPOV. Whoever added those unsolicited expressions of his personal opinion is clearly pushing a personal view that soul sleep is the "right" doctrine. I'll wait a short time then remove the POV commentaries. Freederick ( talk) 18:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I have reworked the list of verses added, removed, reverted a few days ago, in order to try and bring them in line. Several changes were made, from the version used (almost all of the others were KJV, so i changed the additions) as it surely makes sense not to cherry-pick translations to make a point, to corrections of the references (several referenced verses not actually quoted), to the formating of the verses and the references. There is still a bit of work to do, and try and integrate all the Bible passages better ~ including removing some which are, IMHO, irrelevant. At this moment, however, i haven't time, so i'll try a bit later. Cheers, Lindsay 16:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Some of these verses do not appear to do a good job supporting soul sleep since they can be interpreted differently
2 Corinthians 4:7-5:4: This does not discuss the soul being sleep and discusses the unseen eternal things such as a implied house for us in heaven
Acts 2:34: This just implies David did not ascend into heaven but does not clarify on the alternative
John 20:17: Lack of ascension does not imply soul sleep, there is a verse relating to this where Jesus descends into a prison where other spirits are (I Peter 3:18-20)
There are a lot of verses used to support soul sleep when they do not even discuss an unconscious death. I think this should be reviewed so that only verses support soul sleep in detail are present. Some of the defense for soul sleep that is currently listed are ambiguous and can be interpreted differently (Nautica80 Emerus00@aol.com) Brandon.
This link provides verses that refute soul sleep and may want to be considered in terms of controversial verses.
http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/soulslep.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.194.147 ( talk) 04:59, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Text above moved from halfway up page. Cheers, Lindsay 05:05, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm new to actually editing anything here, so please forgive me if I've erred in the way I'm posting here. However, as I was making a small addition of denominations (including my own, COG7) who are modern supporters of this view, I noticed in the edit history that at some point someone changed the Greek "psuche" to "psyche" - does anyone know why? My understanding is that the former is(was) correct, but I left it as is. Blessings. MusicalMan77 ( talk) 04:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)MusicalMan77
The verses I added do not support soul sleep but the resurrection of a dead soul in heaven. I want to add that Oscar Cullmann and Orthodox theology are very close to soul sleap. Florofsky has said, and his viewpoint is widely accepted by Greek Orthodox theologians, that a "soul without a body is ghost". For Orthodox theology, man is both soul and body, and the separation of soul from the body is an irregular condition, contrary to the platonists who considered the body as the grave of the soul, and the seperation of the soul from the body as a liberation.--
Vassilis78 (
talk)
08:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The comments are not POV because they reflect the current scholarship. Many of the arguments used for the immaterial and immortal soul are now outdated. In the last century much have changed as regards the understanding of Biblical psychology. I believe that tt is POV and misleading to present arguments that do not exist among current theological dictionaries but just reflect the thoughts of the Sunday School of the 19th century.--
Vassilis78 (
talk)
17:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually I disagree, the arguments for an immaterial soul are not outdated. Even the Chabad.org which is a Jewish site, using the Torah (which is where most of the soul sleep verses come from, the OT), defends the concept of an immediate afterlife. The reason why there is very little talk about an afterlife in the OT is because (according to that site) the focus was the present, and the life currently lived. There are ton of mainstream theologians that support an immediate afterlife. However besides that, I do think this article is put together well, it is just that some verses that support and refute soul sleep can be interpreted differently which gives the illusion that there is no support for an immediate afterlife at all within any realms of scripture. Nautica80 ( talk) 02:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica80 Nautica80 ( talk) 02:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I am wandering if Chabah is in cooperation with the Jewish universities or the official Rabbinic organizations. I don't know; if you know, please provide info. What I know are the two official publications, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Judaica. Both say that immortality of the soul was introduced into Judaism by the influence of Platonism. This is the passage of the Jewish Encyclopedia, which was written a century ago:
The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).
As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia"). It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality (Ps. xvi. 11, xvii. 15, xlix. 16, lxxiii. 24 et seq., cxvi. 6-9); whereas Job (xiv. 13 et seq., xix. 26) betrays only a desire for, not a real faith in, a life after death. Ben Sira (xiv. 12, xvii. 27 et seq., xxi. 10, xxviii. 21) still clings to the belief in Sheol as the destination of man. It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2; see Eschatology; Resurrection).
Hellenistic View. The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended, as the Semitic name "Minos" (comp. "Minotaurus"), and the Egyptian "Rhadamanthys" ("Ra of Ament," "Ruler of Hades"; Naville, "La Litanie du Soleil," 1875, p. 13) with others, sufficiently prove. Consult especially E. Rhode, "Psyche: Seelencult und Unsterblichkeitsglaube der Griechen," 1894, pp. 555 et seq.— Immortality of the Soul.
Regarding the biblical verses at stake, the modern Tanakh (The Jewish Publication Society, 1985) translation says:
Genesis 35:18
But as she breathed her last -- for she was dying -- she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin. Thus Rachel died. She was buried on the road to Ephrath -- now Bethlehem.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the ground As it was, And the lifebreath returns to God Who bestowed it.
So, it is true that many Biblical arguements in favour of the immortality of the soul are outdated.
--
Vassilis78 (
talk)
11:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Nautica: Allow me to say a second word. You said: Actually I disagree, the arguments for an immaterial soul are not outdated. As regards the OT, the so-called "Biblical" support to an immaterial soul is COMPLETELY outdated, because in the world history of religion and philosophy Socrates and Plato were probably the first who introduced the idea of the immaterial soul. Before Socrates and Plato, many believed in the immortality of the soul, as Greeks, Babylonians and Egyptians, but no one had conceived the idea of an immaterial soul. I doubt if you have ever read a single academic book that says that, before Socrates and Plato, there were others who believed in an immaterial soul. Personally, I have never found any such statement in books of the last 50 years. As far as I have seen, anti-sectarian or non-academic books are the only exception, books which, of course, are of no scientific value at all.
-- Vassilis78 ( talk) 11:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Regarding your second word: An immaterial Soul is the same as a Spirit body, some cultures call it the "soul" and still see it separate from the body(since apparently you want to argue semantics on the idea of immaterial). There is ton of evidence that early religions before platonic influences thought of an immediate afterlife upon death separate from the body, which of course is not a physical body but an immaterial soul. They may not have coined the term "immaterial soul" but I do not see the difference in the two beliefs and how they define it. You also want to argue about how Jews were influenced by the Hellenistic view and it not being a truth belief within their Torah, which you are basically telling me that before that they thought of death as the end until the resurrection, the irony in that is the concept of the resurrection (World to Come) was influenced as well by Zoroastrianism, which existed before Judaism, which I may add also supports the idea of an immaterial soul, however they do not call it that, they just call it the soul.
If the arguments were as outdated as you claim then I can not imagine why Soul Sleep is such a minority view even if tradition persists. I have no problems with the scripture used to support Soul Sleep, but I can not imagine anyone stating that this is the fact itself. We have to remember words are used to describe what things appear to look like, We all know sleep is not death yet it is constantly equated to death, sometimes through comparisons or using statements such as "they have fallen asleep" but when we sleep every night, we are not dead so we have to understand when words are not truly literal. I can't imagine Jesus using a false idea of an afterlife to make a point as seen in the parable of the rich man/Lazarus Luke 16:19-31. The word nephesh is used to describe many things even attributes of the mind such as desire, lust, greed, so it does not only mean the breath of life. So does that mean the breath of life has attributes or does that just mean one word can mean many different things? Could we say the same for the word soul/spirit? Matthew 10:28 implies that the body and soul can only be killed by one, which is God but it does distinguish the two even if it is vague. It all depends how the context of the word, because one word has multiple means, the word she'ol for example is debated to have roots in the word sha'al which means "to ask, to interrogate, to question.", so then what of all the scripture that is not too detailed on what truly takes place in she'ol? How should we interpret that? Why did Paul want to depart from the body to be with Christ? What is truly the original translation of what Jesus says to the their on the cross about paradise? Why did Stephen ask the lord to receive HIS spirit when he died? Why would there be souls under the altar crying out for vengeance if they were not yet resurrected? Why did Moses appear to Jesus as an Apparition isn't he is suppose to be sleeping? I would hardly call any argument outdated if they can still be interpreted in so many different contexts. It is safe to say religious concepts were influenced in so many ways and it is clear through the bible how concepts evolved as they were engaged in the world around them, but I doubt we can say with 100% certainty that we truly know the context of what it all meant, especially when we ourselves can often speak words with different implied meanings.
Here are some highly debated verses that can go either way:
1 Sam. 28:8-15 - Communication with the dead? 1 Kings 17:21 - "let THIS child's SOUL return to him" It implies ownership of the soul which only belongs to the child Matthew 10:28 - Implies body and soul Luke 16:19-31 - Rich man parable Acts 7:59 - Stephen asking the Lord to receive his spirit (I can't imagine this meaning "breath") 1 Thess. 5:23 - Identifies 3 parts: Spirit/Soul/Body Hebrews 12:23 - "Spirits of just men made perfect" The context seems to be talking about the past dead but I am unsure Revelation 6:9 - Conscious souls under the altar who have yet to be resurrected Heb. 4:12; - It scripture makes it a point to acknowledge the soul and spirit instead of singling out a unified "one" 1 Cor. 14:14 - "my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." Hints are some sort of dualism 2 Cor 5:8 - Paul prefers to be away from the body but with the Lord 2 Cor 12:2-4 - Talks about Paradise/Third Heaven unsure if "apart from body" which would imply some sort of separation logic Luke 23:42-43 - The comma location determines the meaning of this but it also mentions Paradise
I have no problems with your logic, because soul sleep seems very reasonable, I just can not agree that those concepts are outdated within the text of the Bible/Torah/Qu'ran since they are still highly supported today.
Here are some other links besides the Chabad site:
http://www.probe.org/faith-and-science/general-science/mind-soul-and-neuroethics.html#text1 http://www.equip.org/site/c.muI1LaMNJrE/b.2859123/k.BDB8/CP0711.htm http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_afterlife.htm
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm "The Torah speaks of several noteworthy people being "gathered to their people." See, for example, Gen. 25:8 (Abraham), 25:17 (Ishmael), 35:29 (Isaac), 49:33 (Jacob), Deut. 32:50 (Moses and Aaron) II Kings 22:20 (King Josiah). This gathering is described as a separate event from the physical death of the body or the burial."
66.229.194.147 (
talk) 01:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica80
66.229.194.147 (
talk)
01:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Nautica or 66.229.194.147: This is not a discussion forum. The only thing we can and must do is to put sources. Can you find a source saying that before Plato and Socrates there were people who believed that soul is immaterial? I will provide a source that says the opposite:
Like many (or indeed all) sixth and fifth century thinkers who expressed views on the nature or constitution of the soul, Heraclitus thought that the soul was bodily, but composed of an unusually fine or rare kind of matter, e.g. air or fire. (A possible exception is the Pythagorean Philolaus, who may have held that the soul is an ‘attunement’ of the body; cf. Barnes 1982, 488-95, and Huffman.) The prevalence of the idea that the soul is bodily explains the absence of problems about the relation between soul and body. Soul and body were not thought to be radically different in kind; their difference seemed just to consist in a difference in degree of properties such as fineness and mobility.— Ancient Theories of Soul, The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
-- Vassilis78 ( talk) 18:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
You really think that that Socrates/Plato were the first to think up a immaterial spirit body? I can provide outside sources but I might as well use wiki to show you it is available right here!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism (Maybe the Persians influenced Plato?) They believed after 4 days the soul left the body
Should I even bring up Hinduism or Buddhism or Jainism? I know for sure they existed before Plato and Socrates and believed in reincarnation and an immaterial aspect of the body, maybe they influenced Plato? Which was not one body going into an other, but a continuation consciousness, which is definitely immaterial. Or as the Hindu's call it, the Atma which never dies and is immortal. This definitely existed before Plato and Socrates. Now if you want to say Christianity was influenced by Plato or that his views perhaps influenced Judaism then you have a valid point, but to say that concept did not exist before Plato is inaccurate. There is a difference in who came up with a theory for it and when it was actually believed.
66.229.194.147 ( talk) 00:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica80 66.229.194.147 ( talk) 00:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
We can continue this conversation over email if you like. Emerus00@aol.com.
66.229.194.147 ( talk) 19:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica80 66.229.194.147 ( talk) 19:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I think this site should be looked at because quite a few verses have been presented that claim to oppose soul sleep, only a few on this site are not truly acceptable as a soul sleep rebuttal. http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd22.htm http://www.tektonics.org/qt/sleepy.html
I don't want to add any verses to the main page without permission. Please let me know if it is ok. Thanks.
66.229.194.147 ( talk) 01:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica80 66.229.194.147 ( talk) 01:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Dear Nautica, I think that the core of our disagreement is that you confuse immaterialism with immortality. It is not the same. Immortality of the soul is a very ancient doctrine, as old as religion itself. Ancient Babylonians, Egyptians and others believed in the immortality of the soul, but it was Socrates and Plato who tried to "explain" immortality (and more precisely reincarnation) with their theory about the eternal, without beginning and without end, World of the Ideas (idealism), a world immaterial, totally different in essence from the material world, which has beginning and end. Ideas, Nautica, do not have bodies, do not have height, width and length, immaterial things are incorporeal. On the contrary Babylonians and Egyptians made material offerings to the tombs of the dead ones for their satisfaction. That is why those people used to put money, weapons and other things in the tombs for the service of the dead. It is because they considered the hereafter very similar to this life.
All graves of every class testify to the faith in a life after death similar to life on earth.— George Andrew Reisner, The Egyptian Conception of Immortality.
This has nothing to do with the platonic idealism. However, Platonic idealism influenced the formation of the Jewish and the Christian doctrine on the soul, as it is evidenced by the Rabbinic and Patristic literature.
And, with all respect, allow me to give you a piece of advise: do not pay much attention to internet sites that are not published by academics who are specialized in the field of philosoply, ancient languages and history of religion. There are many amateurs and religious fanatics who write things according to their ignorance and day-dreams.
--
Vassilis78 (
talk)
08:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Of course there are sources that use these texts.-- Vassilis78 ( talk) 08:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that Isaac Newton is cited as a supporter of this belief/doctrine, but there is no reference. Can one be added by the original drafter? Russell 79.74.244.200 ( talk) 18:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I remeber reading a weird story in which the author claimed to have been a reincarnated angel or archangel. He then described his youth as a form of soul sleep, a prelude to a later re-awakening in adulthood in which he possessed a semi-consciousness of his earlier life. ADM ( talk) 08:09, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
In the first paragraph of the section on Etymology, it is explained that Psychopannychie means roughly wakeful soul, but then, it says that the German translation was Seelenschlaf, which means soulsleep. Isn't that really a translation of the theoretical opposite of soul wakefulness?
It seems like the general idea of this section is to explain how Calvin first popularized the semantics of sleep and wakefulness of the soul in his refutation of the bosom of Abraham type doctrines, and that in so doing, he coined an enduring name for the belief he was writing against. But I think right now it's a little muddled. -- 108.110.77.245 ( talk) 14:19, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
To User:AuthorityTam ORIGINAL Soul sleep is a term, often pejorative, for the belief in mortality of the soul: that the soul dies and the dead sleep unconsciously between the death of the body and the resurrection on Judgment Day. Those who hold this belief do not usually use the term.
The assertion that psychopannychism and thnetopsychism "are not "two beliefs" but simply two terms for the same belief" is literally jaw-droppingly wrong. Please consider:
The correct and verifiable information has been restored. -- AuthorityTam ( talk) 19:59, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Cc Adi 8.38: ‘Chaitanya-mangala’ shune yadi pashandi, yavana seha maha-vaishnava haya tatakshana If even a great atheist hears Shri Chaitanya-mangala, he immediately becomes a great devotee. Cc Adi 8.40: Vrindavana-dasa-pade koti namaskara aiche grantha kari’ tenho tarila samsara I offer millions of obeisances unto the lotus feet of Vrindavana dasa Thakura. No one else could write such a wonderful book for the deliverance of all fallen souls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.133.142.196 ( talk) 06:23, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
I propose this article be renamed "Christian mortalism". The leading paragraph states this is the preferred term, at least in modern academic literature.
I previously suggested a move from psychopannychism (sp?) to the present title, as that title was cumbersome and unfamiliar, and reliable sources question the accuracy of that traditional naming. Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 13:05, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
Saint Paul merely says dead Christians will come out of the grave and rise into the air to meet the returning Jesus, coming down through the clouds. He doesn't say they all go to Heaven. The final judgment is meant to involve everyone, after which the unsaved go to punishment or anihilation, depending on your interpretation, and the saved share eternal life with Jesus in his Kingdom, which, the early Christians (and modern theologians who base themslves on the original views, like N T Wright) generally thought of as being on this Earth, or maybe a kind of merging together of Heaven and Earth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orlando098 ( talk • contribs) 10:45, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
The article was tagged for lack of references. I have now placed over 60 references in the article, as well as restructuring it. I don't think there's a single outstanding reference now, and would suggest that tag be removed. The article was also tagged for bias in the criticism section. I'm not sure if that section actually exists anymore, but we can work on that.-- Taiwan boi ( talk) 08:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
St Anselm, I'm sorry this is too substantial a delete of referenced material to do without discussion this. For the time being restored. However the bullet lists could be paragraphed. In ictu oculi ( talk) 15:13, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
'However, there is a very important distinction to be made concerning the mortalists who believed in soul sleeping, and Burns puts it as follows: The psychopannychists believed that the immortal substance called soul literally slept until the resurrection of the body; the thnetopsychists, denying that the soul was an immortal substance, believed that the soul slept after the death only in a figurative sense. Both groups of soul sleepers believed in the personal immortality of the individual after the resurrection of the body, and so they should not be confused with the annihilationists.', Brandon, 'The coherence of Hobbes's Leviathan: civil and religious authority combined', pp. 65-66 (2007)
St. Anselm, well whether it is a "massive prune" (your words) or "vandalism" (what it would be if someone did that to referenced material on any other article) the state of the article after your repeated Giant Delete is this. I don't see anything in the above that provides any justification for repeated deletion of referenced data on this scale --- and, paying more attention, I'm not convinced that the repeated deletions aren't selective - i.e. deleting those who hold the view of the article title such as Luther, while retaining Calvin. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it looked like at a brief glance... Anyway. Please restore from where you deleted half the article again i.e. please restore your deletes - deleted text and deleted refs, and then "discuss", "edit", here. Thanks In ictu oculi ( talk) 03:05, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
This is getting to the point where common sense should intervene. A repeated deletion of referenced material on this scale after a request for talk has been made is not good Wikipedia practice. And there is no purpose in discussing 2% here or 3% there of what has been deleted before a deletion of this scale is undone. Whether deletion of referenced material on this scale is vandalism or "massive prune", it needs to be undone before getting dragged into details. Thanks In ictu oculi ( talk) 05:04, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
It seems St.Anselm is not going to repair the deletions, so have restored (I think) about 80% of what was deleted. Some of it is interwoven with other comment so difficult to restore. In particular
(a) Correct information and source texts of Luther restored. ---- I note that even after Ellingsen (who is not an academic)'s misquote he then goes on to say "Luther's more characteristic view, however, was to conceive of death as sleep — as a kind of "soul sleep" (Letter to Hans Luther, in LW 49:270)"... how did that fall out of the reference?
(b) Referenced name Section undeleted: Seventeenth to eighteenth centuries Soul sleep was a significant minority view from the eighth to the seventeenth centuries,[77] and soul death became increasingly common from the Reformation onwards.[78] Those holding this view include: 1600s: Sussex Baptists[79] d. 1612: Edward Wightman[80] 1627: Samuel Gardner[81] 1628: Samuel Przypkowski[82] 1636: George Wither[83] 1637: Joachim Stegmann[84] 1624: Richard Overton[85] 1654: John Biddle (Unitarian)[86] 1655: Matthew Caffyn[87] 1658: Samuel Richardson[88] 1608-1674: John Milton[89][90] 1588-1670: Thomas Hobbes[91] 1605-1682: Thomas Browne[92] 1622-1705: Henry Layton[93] 1702: William Coward[94] 1632-1704: John Locke[95] 1643-1727: Isaac Newton[96] 1676-1748: Pietro Giannone[97] 1751: William Kenrick[98] 1755: Edmund Law[99] 1759: Samuel Bourn[100] 1723-1791: Richard Price[101] 1718-1797: Peter Peckard[102] 1733-1804: Joseph Priestley[103] 1765: Francis Blackburne[104]
(c) have tried to restore other bits, but because am more familiar with 16th-19thC have concentrated on that. In ictu oculi ( talk) 00:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Are these really different? or just some 19th Century writers using different words and then inferring backwards from the etymology they themselves? Can any original/historical source identify a discussion (say between two 17th Century mortalists) where one can be identified as a thnetopsychist and one a psychopannychist? In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:02, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Authority Tam, they now have accepted definitions - that's the problem, have they? See Gordon Campbell Milton and the manuscript of De doctrina Christiana 2007 p 118 "Maurice Kelley thought that Milton was a thnetopsychist (Yale, VI, 91–8), and Christopher Hill described him as a psychopannychist (Hill, 1977, 317–23). Both may be right, in that the latter term embraced both views (Williams, 1962,.." This is not Milton believed (X) Locke believed (Y), this is Maurice Kelley called Milton's belief (X) Christopher Hill called Milton's belief (Y). i.e. synonyms not antonyms. In ictu oculi ( talk) 12:57, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Even more verifiable works which distinguish between psychopannychism and thnetopsychism:
These and other works plainly show that psychopannychism and thnetopsychism are not precisely synonymous, but instead have a significant difference with significant theology repercussions. -- AuthorityTam ( talk) 07:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
An editor in another thread asked for references showing that Jehovah's Witnesses teach that only a minority of the faithful receive immortality.
-- AuthorityTam ( talk) 18:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
--- Mystery solved - which wasn't clear in the article page/refs as is: Jehovah's Witnesses distinguish between "immortality" (without a physical body) and "eternal life" while still mortal. Presumably the distinction being that God can still terminate those on earth (why/when?), but not those 144,000 in heaven? .... Can someone word that [briefly] into their paragraph. In ictu oculi ( talk) 00:43, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Well certainly very interesting, though not surprising given the 1918 "resurrection", presumably it's one of those doctrines that distinguishes the Bible Student movement from JWs. Prior to 1914 they wouldn't have had any need to distinguish "immortality" (=living forever without a body), and "eternal life" (= living forever with a body). This interpretation is so unique it really doesn't need to be more than mentioned here and then linked to the relevant article on specific JW beliefs. For the purposes of this article it should be sufficient to note then that it isn't totally correct to say that JWs believe in mortalism - since the 144,000 belong in the heaven-going camp. In ictu oculi ( talk) 15:56, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Certain editors have imagined that Jehovah's Witnesses believe immortality hinges on whether a being's body is spirit or flesh; JWs don't actually believe that. JWs believe the Bible to teach that immortality is a gift given specifically by God to specific individuals totalling 144,001 (the "1" is Jesus), each of whom then has an unending energy source within himself. Aside from immortals, JWs believe the Bible to imply that all other intelligent creatures can and will die unless they receive regular 'energy boosts' from God. Thus, JWs believe a person who lives 800 or 900 years is still mortal; JWs believe a person is not immortal just because his death isn't imminent. JWs believe mere separation from God eventually results in death, whether or not any particular sin was committed by the angel or human.
So, the editors' oversimplifications about immortality might be enough to satisfy themselves, but Wikipedia will not insist on propagating untrue ideas about JWs beliefs on immortality. Editors should be more interested in a quality encyclopedic article.
--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
19:16, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
St Anselm - re your deletion of Ellingsen ref which you yourself provided. Your comment to the deletion is "→Ninth to sixteenth centuries: It is not for us to say that Ellingsen or Schewe are misquoting! Better to remove the quotes altogether) (undo)". It may not be for you (with or without exclamation mark "!") to say that Mark Ellingsen is misquoting if you have cannot read the source given in the article from In primum librum Mose enarrationes. However for anyone who can read the ref it is for them to say that Ellingsen is misquoting Luther. If you want to challenge/delete this please first go to your local library, consult an English translation of Luthers Werke and then compare it with the quotation from the author of When Did Jesus Become Republican?. In the meantime your ref from Ellingsen is a perfect example of exactly what professor Fritschel was talking about in 1867. Please restore your ref. deletion. In ictu oculi ( talk) 18:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Before making a formal merger proposal.... Currently there is almost no content on Christian conditionalism which is not duplicated on Christian mortalism. There is also no documented distinction of how/when/if Christian conditionalism and Christian mortalism are distinct (i.e. a group holds one but not the other). The Christian Hope p116 Brian Hebblethwaite - 2010 (The Reverend Canon Brian Leslie Hebblethwaite, philosophical theologian, was born in Bristol, England, on 3 January 1939) says "Conditionalism is the view that human beings, although created mortal, acquire the capacity to receive immortal life,". Soul sleep/Mortalism also believes that - at the resurrection. In what way does any group distinguish the endowment of immortality at any other point than that envisaged by Luther and Tyndale? In ictu oculi ( talk) 11:53, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
We have a lot of definitions kicking around here, and I thought it might be good to draw up a table comparing them. I've used "saved"/"unsaved" terminology, which isn't ideal, but I trust things are clear. This table isn't necessarily for inclusion in the article, but to see if we agree on the fine distinctions between all the words. So - is it accurate?
Saved Before Judgement Day |
Unsaved Before Judgement Day |
Saved After Judgement Day |
Unsaved After Judgement Day | |
---|---|---|---|---|
Annihilationism | Conscious existence, Unconscious existence or Non-existence |
Unconscious existence or Non-existence |
Conscious existence | Non-existence |
Conditional immortality | Conscious existence or Unconscious existence |
Unconscious existence or Non-existence |
Conscious existence | Non-existence |
Christian mortalism | Unconscious existence or Non-existence |
Unconscious existence or Non-existence |
Conscious existence | Conscious existence or Non-existence |
Soul sleep | Unconscious existence | Unconscious existence or Non-existence |
Conscious existence | Conscious existence or Non-existence |
Psychopannychism | Unconscious existence | Unconscious existence | Conscious existence | Conscious existence or Non-existence |
Thnetopsychism | Non-existence | Non-existence | Conscious existence | Conscious existence or Non-existence |
St Anselm ( talk) 22:13, 2 January 2011 (UTC) St. Anselm Thank you for coming to talk.
The table is an interesting exercise in mapping out possible theoretical combinations as you see it, and as such might be useful. But from the point of view of a historical article you'd have to allocate real historical figures/movements to each box to show historical reality. And some of those positions are inherently contradictory.
1. However as it is all I see from comparing 16th-20th C sources from various standpoints is different people using different terms. All the below could be used of Milton, Newton, Locke, Hobbes:
who uses it | |
---|---|
Annihilationism | word putting the emphasis that most forms of mortalism don't include a universal resurrection |
Conditional immortality | word used by Seventh Day Adventists (Froom) |
Christian mortalism | word used by scholars of Milton (Burns) |
Soul sleep | word used by Calvin himself in the subtitle: "le sommeil de l'âme" |
Psychopannychism | word used by writers who misread the Graeco-Latin pretitle of Calvin's booklet |
Thnetopsychism | word used by writers who realised that pan-nychis means Calvin's own view |
Annihilationism however clearly does have a separate axis in that (per article) there are sourced historical identification of Anglicans and Lutherans who have taught that souls are conscious in the intermediate state, but agree with Luther of a Last Day annihilation. But the other 5 terms.... even Milton scholars cannot allocate Milton to one or another.
2. Also I do not think "Unconscious existence or Non-existence" can be distinguished. "Existence" is in Luther's work a function of language - he speaks of Abraham "living to God" which to Luther was an adoption of metaphysical Johannine language, but it doesn't mean that Luther has a line between "Unconscious existence or Non-existence" as if "existence with no mind and no body" is materially different from "non-existence." Here for example Irmgard Wilhelm-Schaffer Gottes Beamter und Spielmann des Teufels Der Tod in Spätmittelalter (1999) states "Aufgrund biblischer Aussagen räumt Luther die Existenz einiger weniger Ausnahmen vom Seelenschlaf ein. Es handelt sich dabei um Personen wie Moses und Elias, die Jesus erschienen waren; grundsätzlich kommt der Schlaf als Zwischenzustand ..." "Unconscious existence or Non-existence" is semantics and can be discussed in a paragraph on semantics, who uses what word. But unless we can source "Luther taught Unconscious existence but Nicholas Amsdorf taught Non-existence" (sic), then semantics isn't historical concrete reality. In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:05, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Incidentally, American English generally dispenses with the hyphen ("-") between non and the term being dichotomized.
Just as "unconscious" and "dead" are not synonyms, so too, "existence" and "nonexistence" are not synonyms. It seems quite simple to distinguish between "existence" and "nonexistence", since one exists and the other does not.
That is why (perhaps the only reason why) the term "
soul sleep" was mildly useful: as an umbrella term for both
psychopannychism and
thnetopsychism. I had used
Christian mortalism as nearly synonymous with
soul sleep, but if that is incorrect than
my move should be reverted.
Oh, and it should perhaps be clarified that thnetopsychists generally hold that a thing which exists only in thought or memory doesn't literally "exist" but can be brought into literal existence divinely (compare
Proverbs 10:7 and
Romans 4:17)--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
17:24, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
St. Anselm, I see you are back, with more wholesale deletions of footnote references from the article, despite repeatedly having been asked not to go deleting footnote references. These aren't generally refs/sources I've put in by the way, but I was the previous edit so I won't undo - yet. I see your reason given for this (not here where discussion has been, but on the history view) "Modern scholarship: pruning the quote farm - there was some awful copy-and-pasting here, probably in violation of copyright" .... Question: How would footnotes be in breach of copyright? For example (picked at random, I don't have time to look in detail at what you've done), why have you deleted this:
In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:51, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
For clarity (for myself if no one else) just inserting the paragraph that all the below is about:
As early as 1917 Harvey Scott could write "That there is no definite affirmation, in the Old Testament of the doctrine of a future life, or personal immortality, is the general consensus of Biblical scholarship.".[140] The modern scholarly consensus is that the canonical teaching of the Old Testament made no reference to an "immortal soul" independent of the body.[141][142][143][144] This view is represented consistently in a wide range of scholarly reference works.[145][146][147][148][149][150] Philip Johnston argues that a few Psalms, such as Psalm 16, Psalm 49 and Psalm 73, "affirm a continued communion with God after death," but "give no elaboration of how, when or where this communion will take place."[151] A review of nine standard scholarly Jewish and Christian sources[152] shows that the majority of them describe the Biblical view of the state of the dead in terms identical or very close to the mortalist view.[not in citation given][improper synthesis?][153][154][155][156][157][158][159][160][161][162] <Insertion of article text ends here. No comment. In ictu oculi ( talk) 13:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
I will add more and rephrase this section.-- Taiwan boi ( talk) 07:11, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
I posted this at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Christian mortalism, and the opinion there was that "A review of nine standard scholarly Jewish and Christian sources shows that the majority of them describe the Biblical view of the state of the dead in terms identical or very close to the mortalist view" was original research. St Anselm ( talk) 22:48, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Can someone with time check please In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:00, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Time for it to go I believe.-- Taiwan boi ( talk) 17:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
So, how about that POV tag?-- Taiwan boi ( talk) 04:51, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
In the absence of any further objections after two weeks, I have removed the tag.-- Taiwan boi ( talk) 06:03, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
"among medieval era rabbis such as Isaac of Nineveh (d.700)" - I understand the idea that Isaac believed in soul sleep, but calling him a rabbi? On what authority?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_of_Nineveh
Isaac of Nineveh (died c. 700) also remembered as Isaac the Syrian and Isaac Syrus was a Seventh century bishop and theologian best remembered for his written work. He is also regarded as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
He was christian theologian, bishop and a saint. I doubt he was a rabbi following Jewish laws.-- Otherguylb ( talk) 04:56, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi editors, would anyone kind tell me why Immortality of the soul redirects to this article? I believe such an article existed before but it was redirected. Thanks. Tamsier ( talk) 21:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I added a section describing the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I am not an experienced editor, so it is very rough. I am open to feedback, especially on the appropriate way to cite the relevant scriptures. Terrel Shumway ( talk) 16:58, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Christian mortalism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "bauckham":
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This article seems to discuss what seems to me to be two distinct issues:
the belief that the human soul is not naturally immortal
the belief that the soul is uncomprehendingimmediately after death.
While I understand that these views are related. I think they should be split into different articles. What do others think? Daask ( talk) 16:37, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Can someone who’s knowledgeable about Wikipedia add the links “Conditional Immortality” and “Soul in the Bible” to this article?? It’s time that this article gets a little more improved!! SassyForAReason ( talk) 15:44, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
I’ve added more arguments for Christian Mortalism and added info to the introduction paragraph. I copied and pasted them from three different Wikipedia articles, “Conditional Immortality,” “Last Judgment,” and “Christian Anthology.” I’ve also used the term “soul sleep” throughout the article since I think that Jehovah Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventists use it. Any improvement would help. Thanks. 😊❤️🙏 2601:407:C400:733:DDFF:1FA5:686C:B37A ( talk) 23:57, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
I object to the term "soul sleep" to refer to the beliefs described here. That does not accurately reflect these beliefs. Most who do not accept the inherent immortality of the human soul do not believe the soul "sleeps"! They believe the soul or person ceases to exist at death! 66.38.21.220 ( talk) 03:09, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
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I noticed the additions made by 211.29.236.172. I don't know who you are or what your name is, 211.29.236.172. But seems that your latest additions show great bias. When I began this entry, I was attempting to remain most objective, simply stating the bare facts about the doctrine of soul sleep, and steering clear of any bias, or leaving the observer to decide for himself or herself. Can I ask why you have imposed your own personal convictions upon this entry, as you have with other entries? Parousia1 01:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
I propose that the article be moved (renamed) to "Soul sleep", as this term is more common and more likely to be understood. Arguments, theologians, and denominations could then be clearly labelled as either for or against soul sleep, whereas the term psychopannychism is ambiguous in popular usage, according to the article. -- Colin MacLaurin 19:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a red wikilink on the page to The Church of God Abrahamic Faith. I believe that this refers to one of two existing articles (or possibly both): Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith) and Church of the Blessed Hope, who say they are different but both can be known as "Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith". Which one of these should the link point to, in other words, which one believes in soul sleep? -- Colin MacLaurin 19:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I can confirm that the "Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith)" does believe in 'soul sleep' or "that the soul is not separate from the body and so there is no "spiritual" self to survive bodily death."
I'll see what I can do to give them some representation on this and other related articles if time permits. I'd be interested in dealing with the "largely discredited" portion of the first sentence. Could be my bias talking, but perhaps no less so than the article itself.
Avecrien
21:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
While I was making spelling corrections for the word "rabbinical", I found a misspelling in reference #15. The original link was broken and the correction of the spelling also leads to a broken link. If someone knows where the referenced webpage can be found, please direct #15 to it. Thanks. Aclayartist ( talk) 19:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Would it be possible to use a modern translation for the verses? For instance, the following excerpt uses numerous ancient/extinct words and grammar structures. "yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two" Ansell 09:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Just out of interest I have read through all the pros and cons of the argument. Not wishing to put any bias on the item or sit on either side of the fence here I was just wondering how the first con is supposed to disprove soul sleeping? Just purely out of interest! Cls14 11:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't. None of the Cons do! As soon as a translation uses the word spirit, the intent is that this spirit is supposed to be the "immortal soul". The word spiritus is Latin means the same thing as the Hebrew ruach and Greek pneuma. They all mean "breath", or "air" or "wind". The people of the Biblical times knew nothing of an immortal soul. What they did know is that death was accompanied by the cessation of breathing. Thus when the ancient texts say the body gives up its spirit, the people of the times it was written knew it just meant that the "nephesh" or "air breather" had stopped breathing. when you stop breathing, the body dies as the cells are starved of oxygen. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.
A Seventh-day Adventist theology lecturer told me that "soul sleep" or at least a holistic anthropology is actually the consensus scholarly view, although it is a minority amongst Christians in general. Liberal scholar Rudolf Bultmann was mentioned as the leading example. I hope that these comments can be cited and integrated into the article. Colin MacLaurin 06:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
--
I have been talking to two theology lecturers/experts. If I understand them correctly, they said that the terms "soul sleep", "thetnopsychism" and so on are not used by scholars. They said that "something similar to" soul sleep is actually the majority scholarly view (of Protestants?); specifically a holistic anthropology or holistic view of the innate nature of mankind (i.e. that body, soul and spirit are inseparable). Rudolf Bultmann is the foremost scholar supporting this. He believes that Paul uses Greek terms, but that his worldview is shaped by his Hebrew background. So terms such as soma (body), pneuma (spirit), psuche (soul) and sometimes even sarx (flesh) each refer to the whole person, albeit a particular aspect thereof. Apparently most seminaries around the world would teach this, with some exceptions particularly in the United States. Other leading scholars supporting this view are Jewitt, Kümmel and Ladd. Cullmann is more readable (I will add these to the references on the page).
One must also remember there may be a difference between what the scholars believe the Bible teaches, and between what they actually believe! A liberal scholar may believe that the Bible teaches a particular concept, without believing it themselves. It is logically possible that a Catholic scholar could agree that the Bible teaches the view above, without believing it is true because of tradition etc. (Would a Catholic theology expert please comment if any such Catholic theologians exist). For a conservative Christian (Protestant?) who regards the Bible as the foremost authority, the two will be linked. Hence the article may need to reflect this point, by distinguishing views on what the Bible teaches from views that are ultimately held.
I propose the creation of a new, "parent" page called Christian anthropology, or perhaps Judeo-Christian anthropology would be better, so as not to exclude the Jewish view(s), which is/are a precursor to the Christian views anyway. It would serve as an overview, with links to main articles covering various details. It would cover bipartite (theology) and tripartite views (those articles are currently stubs and could be merged into the new page). Soul and spirit would be key parts of the article (new articles specific to the Judeo-Christian tradition on these topics would be in order, I believe. I looked in some theological dictionaries and found pages of detailed information on the Hebrew and Greek background of the terms, so there is certainly lots of potential content). It would also cover hell in Christian beliefs and related topics. Conditional immortality and annihilation are closely related and would also be covered.
Some expert attention would help to improve these articles (Catholic, Orthodox, liberal Protestant, conservative Protestant etc.) Colin MacLaurin 08:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that this article lacks of the views that scholars have on this subject with references and comments that would shed light on the linguistic and cultural background of the Biblical psychology. I hope that in the near future I would have the time to add some interesting points. One major topic is the nature of the Biblical soul. Another interesting aspect is the history of psychology in Jewish and Patristic thought as regards the immortality of the soul. As regards, now, the English article soul, the diversity of opinions, strongly influenced by dogmatic views, has caused the article to become chaotic.-- Vassilis78 13:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I would really like to see some reference on the condemnation by the Fifth Latern Council. I suspect the presentation here is distorted. dbrookman 4 Nov 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbrookman ( talk • contribs) 01:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Is soul sleep related to conditional immortality? I suspect that it may be roughly equivalent in modern theology. I have heard that conditionalists such as Edward Fudge, Clark Pinnock etc. also believe in the unconscious state of the dead. It wouldn't surprise me if historically the two notions have been distinct. Please answer. Colin MacLaurin 16:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes I believe they are one and the same. I have put a link from the Wiki conditional immorality page to the soul sleep page. I also have added an external link www.afterlife.co.nz. -- Tarnya-burge ( talk) 00:19, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
The section on Contradicting Bible verses contains a line of unsourced and opinionated commentary after each verse. This violates both WP:OR and WP:NPOV. Whoever added those unsolicited expressions of his personal opinion is clearly pushing a personal view that soul sleep is the "right" doctrine. I'll wait a short time then remove the POV commentaries. Freederick ( talk) 18:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I have reworked the list of verses added, removed, reverted a few days ago, in order to try and bring them in line. Several changes were made, from the version used (almost all of the others were KJV, so i changed the additions) as it surely makes sense not to cherry-pick translations to make a point, to corrections of the references (several referenced verses not actually quoted), to the formating of the verses and the references. There is still a bit of work to do, and try and integrate all the Bible passages better ~ including removing some which are, IMHO, irrelevant. At this moment, however, i haven't time, so i'll try a bit later. Cheers, Lindsay 16:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Some of these verses do not appear to do a good job supporting soul sleep since they can be interpreted differently
2 Corinthians 4:7-5:4: This does not discuss the soul being sleep and discusses the unseen eternal things such as a implied house for us in heaven
Acts 2:34: This just implies David did not ascend into heaven but does not clarify on the alternative
John 20:17: Lack of ascension does not imply soul sleep, there is a verse relating to this where Jesus descends into a prison where other spirits are (I Peter 3:18-20)
There are a lot of verses used to support soul sleep when they do not even discuss an unconscious death. I think this should be reviewed so that only verses support soul sleep in detail are present. Some of the defense for soul sleep that is currently listed are ambiguous and can be interpreted differently (Nautica80 Emerus00@aol.com) Brandon.
This link provides verses that refute soul sleep and may want to be considered in terms of controversial verses.
http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/soulslep.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.194.147 ( talk) 04:59, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Text above moved from halfway up page. Cheers, Lindsay 05:05, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm new to actually editing anything here, so please forgive me if I've erred in the way I'm posting here. However, as I was making a small addition of denominations (including my own, COG7) who are modern supporters of this view, I noticed in the edit history that at some point someone changed the Greek "psuche" to "psyche" - does anyone know why? My understanding is that the former is(was) correct, but I left it as is. Blessings. MusicalMan77 ( talk) 04:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)MusicalMan77
The verses I added do not support soul sleep but the resurrection of a dead soul in heaven. I want to add that Oscar Cullmann and Orthodox theology are very close to soul sleap. Florofsky has said, and his viewpoint is widely accepted by Greek Orthodox theologians, that a "soul without a body is ghost". For Orthodox theology, man is both soul and body, and the separation of soul from the body is an irregular condition, contrary to the platonists who considered the body as the grave of the soul, and the seperation of the soul from the body as a liberation.--
Vassilis78 (
talk)
08:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The comments are not POV because they reflect the current scholarship. Many of the arguments used for the immaterial and immortal soul are now outdated. In the last century much have changed as regards the understanding of Biblical psychology. I believe that tt is POV and misleading to present arguments that do not exist among current theological dictionaries but just reflect the thoughts of the Sunday School of the 19th century.--
Vassilis78 (
talk)
17:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually I disagree, the arguments for an immaterial soul are not outdated. Even the Chabad.org which is a Jewish site, using the Torah (which is where most of the soul sleep verses come from, the OT), defends the concept of an immediate afterlife. The reason why there is very little talk about an afterlife in the OT is because (according to that site) the focus was the present, and the life currently lived. There are ton of mainstream theologians that support an immediate afterlife. However besides that, I do think this article is put together well, it is just that some verses that support and refute soul sleep can be interpreted differently which gives the illusion that there is no support for an immediate afterlife at all within any realms of scripture. Nautica80 ( talk) 02:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica80 Nautica80 ( talk) 02:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I am wandering if Chabah is in cooperation with the Jewish universities or the official Rabbinic organizations. I don't know; if you know, please provide info. What I know are the two official publications, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Judaica. Both say that immortality of the soul was introduced into Judaism by the influence of Platonism. This is the passage of the Jewish Encyclopedia, which was written a century ago:
The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8).
As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia"). It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality (Ps. xvi. 11, xvii. 15, xlix. 16, lxxiii. 24 et seq., cxvi. 6-9); whereas Job (xiv. 13 et seq., xix. 26) betrays only a desire for, not a real faith in, a life after death. Ben Sira (xiv. 12, xvii. 27 et seq., xxi. 10, xxviii. 21) still clings to the belief in Sheol as the destination of man. It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2; see Eschatology; Resurrection).
Hellenistic View. The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended, as the Semitic name "Minos" (comp. "Minotaurus"), and the Egyptian "Rhadamanthys" ("Ra of Ament," "Ruler of Hades"; Naville, "La Litanie du Soleil," 1875, p. 13) with others, sufficiently prove. Consult especially E. Rhode, "Psyche: Seelencult und Unsterblichkeitsglaube der Griechen," 1894, pp. 555 et seq.— Immortality of the Soul.
Regarding the biblical verses at stake, the modern Tanakh (The Jewish Publication Society, 1985) translation says:
Genesis 35:18
But as she breathed her last -- for she was dying -- she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin. Thus Rachel died. She was buried on the road to Ephrath -- now Bethlehem.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the ground As it was, And the lifebreath returns to God Who bestowed it.
So, it is true that many Biblical arguements in favour of the immortality of the soul are outdated.
--
Vassilis78 (
talk)
11:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Nautica: Allow me to say a second word. You said: Actually I disagree, the arguments for an immaterial soul are not outdated. As regards the OT, the so-called "Biblical" support to an immaterial soul is COMPLETELY outdated, because in the world history of religion and philosophy Socrates and Plato were probably the first who introduced the idea of the immaterial soul. Before Socrates and Plato, many believed in the immortality of the soul, as Greeks, Babylonians and Egyptians, but no one had conceived the idea of an immaterial soul. I doubt if you have ever read a single academic book that says that, before Socrates and Plato, there were others who believed in an immaterial soul. Personally, I have never found any such statement in books of the last 50 years. As far as I have seen, anti-sectarian or non-academic books are the only exception, books which, of course, are of no scientific value at all.
-- Vassilis78 ( talk) 11:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Regarding your second word: An immaterial Soul is the same as a Spirit body, some cultures call it the "soul" and still see it separate from the body(since apparently you want to argue semantics on the idea of immaterial). There is ton of evidence that early religions before platonic influences thought of an immediate afterlife upon death separate from the body, which of course is not a physical body but an immaterial soul. They may not have coined the term "immaterial soul" but I do not see the difference in the two beliefs and how they define it. You also want to argue about how Jews were influenced by the Hellenistic view and it not being a truth belief within their Torah, which you are basically telling me that before that they thought of death as the end until the resurrection, the irony in that is the concept of the resurrection (World to Come) was influenced as well by Zoroastrianism, which existed before Judaism, which I may add also supports the idea of an immaterial soul, however they do not call it that, they just call it the soul.
If the arguments were as outdated as you claim then I can not imagine why Soul Sleep is such a minority view even if tradition persists. I have no problems with the scripture used to support Soul Sleep, but I can not imagine anyone stating that this is the fact itself. We have to remember words are used to describe what things appear to look like, We all know sleep is not death yet it is constantly equated to death, sometimes through comparisons or using statements such as "they have fallen asleep" but when we sleep every night, we are not dead so we have to understand when words are not truly literal. I can't imagine Jesus using a false idea of an afterlife to make a point as seen in the parable of the rich man/Lazarus Luke 16:19-31. The word nephesh is used to describe many things even attributes of the mind such as desire, lust, greed, so it does not only mean the breath of life. So does that mean the breath of life has attributes or does that just mean one word can mean many different things? Could we say the same for the word soul/spirit? Matthew 10:28 implies that the body and soul can only be killed by one, which is God but it does distinguish the two even if it is vague. It all depends how the context of the word, because one word has multiple means, the word she'ol for example is debated to have roots in the word sha'al which means "to ask, to interrogate, to question.", so then what of all the scripture that is not too detailed on what truly takes place in she'ol? How should we interpret that? Why did Paul want to depart from the body to be with Christ? What is truly the original translation of what Jesus says to the their on the cross about paradise? Why did Stephen ask the lord to receive HIS spirit when he died? Why would there be souls under the altar crying out for vengeance if they were not yet resurrected? Why did Moses appear to Jesus as an Apparition isn't he is suppose to be sleeping? I would hardly call any argument outdated if they can still be interpreted in so many different contexts. It is safe to say religious concepts were influenced in so many ways and it is clear through the bible how concepts evolved as they were engaged in the world around them, but I doubt we can say with 100% certainty that we truly know the context of what it all meant, especially when we ourselves can often speak words with different implied meanings.
Here are some highly debated verses that can go either way:
1 Sam. 28:8-15 - Communication with the dead? 1 Kings 17:21 - "let THIS child's SOUL return to him" It implies ownership of the soul which only belongs to the child Matthew 10:28 - Implies body and soul Luke 16:19-31 - Rich man parable Acts 7:59 - Stephen asking the Lord to receive his spirit (I can't imagine this meaning "breath") 1 Thess. 5:23 - Identifies 3 parts: Spirit/Soul/Body Hebrews 12:23 - "Spirits of just men made perfect" The context seems to be talking about the past dead but I am unsure Revelation 6:9 - Conscious souls under the altar who have yet to be resurrected Heb. 4:12; - It scripture makes it a point to acknowledge the soul and spirit instead of singling out a unified "one" 1 Cor. 14:14 - "my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." Hints are some sort of dualism 2 Cor 5:8 - Paul prefers to be away from the body but with the Lord 2 Cor 12:2-4 - Talks about Paradise/Third Heaven unsure if "apart from body" which would imply some sort of separation logic Luke 23:42-43 - The comma location determines the meaning of this but it also mentions Paradise
I have no problems with your logic, because soul sleep seems very reasonable, I just can not agree that those concepts are outdated within the text of the Bible/Torah/Qu'ran since they are still highly supported today.
Here are some other links besides the Chabad site:
http://www.probe.org/faith-and-science/general-science/mind-soul-and-neuroethics.html#text1 http://www.equip.org/site/c.muI1LaMNJrE/b.2859123/k.BDB8/CP0711.htm http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_afterlife.htm
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm "The Torah speaks of several noteworthy people being "gathered to their people." See, for example, Gen. 25:8 (Abraham), 25:17 (Ishmael), 35:29 (Isaac), 49:33 (Jacob), Deut. 32:50 (Moses and Aaron) II Kings 22:20 (King Josiah). This gathering is described as a separate event from the physical death of the body or the burial."
66.229.194.147 (
talk) 01:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica80
66.229.194.147 (
talk)
01:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Nautica or 66.229.194.147: This is not a discussion forum. The only thing we can and must do is to put sources. Can you find a source saying that before Plato and Socrates there were people who believed that soul is immaterial? I will provide a source that says the opposite:
Like many (or indeed all) sixth and fifth century thinkers who expressed views on the nature or constitution of the soul, Heraclitus thought that the soul was bodily, but composed of an unusually fine or rare kind of matter, e.g. air or fire. (A possible exception is the Pythagorean Philolaus, who may have held that the soul is an ‘attunement’ of the body; cf. Barnes 1982, 488-95, and Huffman.) The prevalence of the idea that the soul is bodily explains the absence of problems about the relation between soul and body. Soul and body were not thought to be radically different in kind; their difference seemed just to consist in a difference in degree of properties such as fineness and mobility.— Ancient Theories of Soul, The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
-- Vassilis78 ( talk) 18:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
You really think that that Socrates/Plato were the first to think up a immaterial spirit body? I can provide outside sources but I might as well use wiki to show you it is available right here!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism (Maybe the Persians influenced Plato?) They believed after 4 days the soul left the body
Should I even bring up Hinduism or Buddhism or Jainism? I know for sure they existed before Plato and Socrates and believed in reincarnation and an immaterial aspect of the body, maybe they influenced Plato? Which was not one body going into an other, but a continuation consciousness, which is definitely immaterial. Or as the Hindu's call it, the Atma which never dies and is immortal. This definitely existed before Plato and Socrates. Now if you want to say Christianity was influenced by Plato or that his views perhaps influenced Judaism then you have a valid point, but to say that concept did not exist before Plato is inaccurate. There is a difference in who came up with a theory for it and when it was actually believed.
66.229.194.147 ( talk) 00:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica80 66.229.194.147 ( talk) 00:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
We can continue this conversation over email if you like. Emerus00@aol.com.
66.229.194.147 ( talk) 19:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica80 66.229.194.147 ( talk) 19:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I think this site should be looked at because quite a few verses have been presented that claim to oppose soul sleep, only a few on this site are not truly acceptable as a soul sleep rebuttal. http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd22.htm http://www.tektonics.org/qt/sleepy.html
I don't want to add any verses to the main page without permission. Please let me know if it is ok. Thanks.
66.229.194.147 ( talk) 01:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica80 66.229.194.147 ( talk) 01:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Dear Nautica, I think that the core of our disagreement is that you confuse immaterialism with immortality. It is not the same. Immortality of the soul is a very ancient doctrine, as old as religion itself. Ancient Babylonians, Egyptians and others believed in the immortality of the soul, but it was Socrates and Plato who tried to "explain" immortality (and more precisely reincarnation) with their theory about the eternal, without beginning and without end, World of the Ideas (idealism), a world immaterial, totally different in essence from the material world, which has beginning and end. Ideas, Nautica, do not have bodies, do not have height, width and length, immaterial things are incorporeal. On the contrary Babylonians and Egyptians made material offerings to the tombs of the dead ones for their satisfaction. That is why those people used to put money, weapons and other things in the tombs for the service of the dead. It is because they considered the hereafter very similar to this life.
All graves of every class testify to the faith in a life after death similar to life on earth.— George Andrew Reisner, The Egyptian Conception of Immortality.
This has nothing to do with the platonic idealism. However, Platonic idealism influenced the formation of the Jewish and the Christian doctrine on the soul, as it is evidenced by the Rabbinic and Patristic literature.
And, with all respect, allow me to give you a piece of advise: do not pay much attention to internet sites that are not published by academics who are specialized in the field of philosoply, ancient languages and history of religion. There are many amateurs and religious fanatics who write things according to their ignorance and day-dreams.
--
Vassilis78 (
talk)
08:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Of course there are sources that use these texts.-- Vassilis78 ( talk) 08:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that Isaac Newton is cited as a supporter of this belief/doctrine, but there is no reference. Can one be added by the original drafter? Russell 79.74.244.200 ( talk) 18:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I remeber reading a weird story in which the author claimed to have been a reincarnated angel or archangel. He then described his youth as a form of soul sleep, a prelude to a later re-awakening in adulthood in which he possessed a semi-consciousness of his earlier life. ADM ( talk) 08:09, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
In the first paragraph of the section on Etymology, it is explained that Psychopannychie means roughly wakeful soul, but then, it says that the German translation was Seelenschlaf, which means soulsleep. Isn't that really a translation of the theoretical opposite of soul wakefulness?
It seems like the general idea of this section is to explain how Calvin first popularized the semantics of sleep and wakefulness of the soul in his refutation of the bosom of Abraham type doctrines, and that in so doing, he coined an enduring name for the belief he was writing against. But I think right now it's a little muddled. -- 108.110.77.245 ( talk) 14:19, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
To User:AuthorityTam ORIGINAL Soul sleep is a term, often pejorative, for the belief in mortality of the soul: that the soul dies and the dead sleep unconsciously between the death of the body and the resurrection on Judgment Day. Those who hold this belief do not usually use the term.
The assertion that psychopannychism and thnetopsychism "are not "two beliefs" but simply two terms for the same belief" is literally jaw-droppingly wrong. Please consider:
The correct and verifiable information has been restored. -- AuthorityTam ( talk) 19:59, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Cc Adi 8.38: ‘Chaitanya-mangala’ shune yadi pashandi, yavana seha maha-vaishnava haya tatakshana If even a great atheist hears Shri Chaitanya-mangala, he immediately becomes a great devotee. Cc Adi 8.40: Vrindavana-dasa-pade koti namaskara aiche grantha kari’ tenho tarila samsara I offer millions of obeisances unto the lotus feet of Vrindavana dasa Thakura. No one else could write such a wonderful book for the deliverance of all fallen souls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.133.142.196 ( talk) 06:23, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
I propose this article be renamed "Christian mortalism". The leading paragraph states this is the preferred term, at least in modern academic literature.
I previously suggested a move from psychopannychism (sp?) to the present title, as that title was cumbersome and unfamiliar, and reliable sources question the accuracy of that traditional naming. Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 13:05, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
Saint Paul merely says dead Christians will come out of the grave and rise into the air to meet the returning Jesus, coming down through the clouds. He doesn't say they all go to Heaven. The final judgment is meant to involve everyone, after which the unsaved go to punishment or anihilation, depending on your interpretation, and the saved share eternal life with Jesus in his Kingdom, which, the early Christians (and modern theologians who base themslves on the original views, like N T Wright) generally thought of as being on this Earth, or maybe a kind of merging together of Heaven and Earth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orlando098 ( talk • contribs) 10:45, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
The article was tagged for lack of references. I have now placed over 60 references in the article, as well as restructuring it. I don't think there's a single outstanding reference now, and would suggest that tag be removed. The article was also tagged for bias in the criticism section. I'm not sure if that section actually exists anymore, but we can work on that.-- Taiwan boi ( talk) 08:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
St Anselm, I'm sorry this is too substantial a delete of referenced material to do without discussion this. For the time being restored. However the bullet lists could be paragraphed. In ictu oculi ( talk) 15:13, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
'However, there is a very important distinction to be made concerning the mortalists who believed in soul sleeping, and Burns puts it as follows: The psychopannychists believed that the immortal substance called soul literally slept until the resurrection of the body; the thnetopsychists, denying that the soul was an immortal substance, believed that the soul slept after the death only in a figurative sense. Both groups of soul sleepers believed in the personal immortality of the individual after the resurrection of the body, and so they should not be confused with the annihilationists.', Brandon, 'The coherence of Hobbes's Leviathan: civil and religious authority combined', pp. 65-66 (2007)
St. Anselm, well whether it is a "massive prune" (your words) or "vandalism" (what it would be if someone did that to referenced material on any other article) the state of the article after your repeated Giant Delete is this. I don't see anything in the above that provides any justification for repeated deletion of referenced data on this scale --- and, paying more attention, I'm not convinced that the repeated deletions aren't selective - i.e. deleting those who hold the view of the article title such as Luther, while retaining Calvin. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it looked like at a brief glance... Anyway. Please restore from where you deleted half the article again i.e. please restore your deletes - deleted text and deleted refs, and then "discuss", "edit", here. Thanks In ictu oculi ( talk) 03:05, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
This is getting to the point where common sense should intervene. A repeated deletion of referenced material on this scale after a request for talk has been made is not good Wikipedia practice. And there is no purpose in discussing 2% here or 3% there of what has been deleted before a deletion of this scale is undone. Whether deletion of referenced material on this scale is vandalism or "massive prune", it needs to be undone before getting dragged into details. Thanks In ictu oculi ( talk) 05:04, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
It seems St.Anselm is not going to repair the deletions, so have restored (I think) about 80% of what was deleted. Some of it is interwoven with other comment so difficult to restore. In particular
(a) Correct information and source texts of Luther restored. ---- I note that even after Ellingsen (who is not an academic)'s misquote he then goes on to say "Luther's more characteristic view, however, was to conceive of death as sleep — as a kind of "soul sleep" (Letter to Hans Luther, in LW 49:270)"... how did that fall out of the reference?
(b) Referenced name Section undeleted: Seventeenth to eighteenth centuries Soul sleep was a significant minority view from the eighth to the seventeenth centuries,[77] and soul death became increasingly common from the Reformation onwards.[78] Those holding this view include: 1600s: Sussex Baptists[79] d. 1612: Edward Wightman[80] 1627: Samuel Gardner[81] 1628: Samuel Przypkowski[82] 1636: George Wither[83] 1637: Joachim Stegmann[84] 1624: Richard Overton[85] 1654: John Biddle (Unitarian)[86] 1655: Matthew Caffyn[87] 1658: Samuel Richardson[88] 1608-1674: John Milton[89][90] 1588-1670: Thomas Hobbes[91] 1605-1682: Thomas Browne[92] 1622-1705: Henry Layton[93] 1702: William Coward[94] 1632-1704: John Locke[95] 1643-1727: Isaac Newton[96] 1676-1748: Pietro Giannone[97] 1751: William Kenrick[98] 1755: Edmund Law[99] 1759: Samuel Bourn[100] 1723-1791: Richard Price[101] 1718-1797: Peter Peckard[102] 1733-1804: Joseph Priestley[103] 1765: Francis Blackburne[104]
(c) have tried to restore other bits, but because am more familiar with 16th-19thC have concentrated on that. In ictu oculi ( talk) 00:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Are these really different? or just some 19th Century writers using different words and then inferring backwards from the etymology they themselves? Can any original/historical source identify a discussion (say between two 17th Century mortalists) where one can be identified as a thnetopsychist and one a psychopannychist? In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:02, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Authority Tam, they now have accepted definitions - that's the problem, have they? See Gordon Campbell Milton and the manuscript of De doctrina Christiana 2007 p 118 "Maurice Kelley thought that Milton was a thnetopsychist (Yale, VI, 91–8), and Christopher Hill described him as a psychopannychist (Hill, 1977, 317–23). Both may be right, in that the latter term embraced both views (Williams, 1962,.." This is not Milton believed (X) Locke believed (Y), this is Maurice Kelley called Milton's belief (X) Christopher Hill called Milton's belief (Y). i.e. synonyms not antonyms. In ictu oculi ( talk) 12:57, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Even more verifiable works which distinguish between psychopannychism and thnetopsychism:
These and other works plainly show that psychopannychism and thnetopsychism are not precisely synonymous, but instead have a significant difference with significant theology repercussions. -- AuthorityTam ( talk) 07:31, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
An editor in another thread asked for references showing that Jehovah's Witnesses teach that only a minority of the faithful receive immortality.
-- AuthorityTam ( talk) 18:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
--- Mystery solved - which wasn't clear in the article page/refs as is: Jehovah's Witnesses distinguish between "immortality" (without a physical body) and "eternal life" while still mortal. Presumably the distinction being that God can still terminate those on earth (why/when?), but not those 144,000 in heaven? .... Can someone word that [briefly] into their paragraph. In ictu oculi ( talk) 00:43, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Well certainly very interesting, though not surprising given the 1918 "resurrection", presumably it's one of those doctrines that distinguishes the Bible Student movement from JWs. Prior to 1914 they wouldn't have had any need to distinguish "immortality" (=living forever without a body), and "eternal life" (= living forever with a body). This interpretation is so unique it really doesn't need to be more than mentioned here and then linked to the relevant article on specific JW beliefs. For the purposes of this article it should be sufficient to note then that it isn't totally correct to say that JWs believe in mortalism - since the 144,000 belong in the heaven-going camp. In ictu oculi ( talk) 15:56, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Certain editors have imagined that Jehovah's Witnesses believe immortality hinges on whether a being's body is spirit or flesh; JWs don't actually believe that. JWs believe the Bible to teach that immortality is a gift given specifically by God to specific individuals totalling 144,001 (the "1" is Jesus), each of whom then has an unending energy source within himself. Aside from immortals, JWs believe the Bible to imply that all other intelligent creatures can and will die unless they receive regular 'energy boosts' from God. Thus, JWs believe a person who lives 800 or 900 years is still mortal; JWs believe a person is not immortal just because his death isn't imminent. JWs believe mere separation from God eventually results in death, whether or not any particular sin was committed by the angel or human.
So, the editors' oversimplifications about immortality might be enough to satisfy themselves, but Wikipedia will not insist on propagating untrue ideas about JWs beliefs on immortality. Editors should be more interested in a quality encyclopedic article.
--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
19:16, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
St Anselm - re your deletion of Ellingsen ref which you yourself provided. Your comment to the deletion is "→Ninth to sixteenth centuries: It is not for us to say that Ellingsen or Schewe are misquoting! Better to remove the quotes altogether) (undo)". It may not be for you (with or without exclamation mark "!") to say that Mark Ellingsen is misquoting if you have cannot read the source given in the article from In primum librum Mose enarrationes. However for anyone who can read the ref it is for them to say that Ellingsen is misquoting Luther. If you want to challenge/delete this please first go to your local library, consult an English translation of Luthers Werke and then compare it with the quotation from the author of When Did Jesus Become Republican?. In the meantime your ref from Ellingsen is a perfect example of exactly what professor Fritschel was talking about in 1867. Please restore your ref. deletion. In ictu oculi ( talk) 18:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
Before making a formal merger proposal.... Currently there is almost no content on Christian conditionalism which is not duplicated on Christian mortalism. There is also no documented distinction of how/when/if Christian conditionalism and Christian mortalism are distinct (i.e. a group holds one but not the other). The Christian Hope p116 Brian Hebblethwaite - 2010 (The Reverend Canon Brian Leslie Hebblethwaite, philosophical theologian, was born in Bristol, England, on 3 January 1939) says "Conditionalism is the view that human beings, although created mortal, acquire the capacity to receive immortal life,". Soul sleep/Mortalism also believes that - at the resurrection. In what way does any group distinguish the endowment of immortality at any other point than that envisaged by Luther and Tyndale? In ictu oculi ( talk) 11:53, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
We have a lot of definitions kicking around here, and I thought it might be good to draw up a table comparing them. I've used "saved"/"unsaved" terminology, which isn't ideal, but I trust things are clear. This table isn't necessarily for inclusion in the article, but to see if we agree on the fine distinctions between all the words. So - is it accurate?
Saved Before Judgement Day |
Unsaved Before Judgement Day |
Saved After Judgement Day |
Unsaved After Judgement Day | |
---|---|---|---|---|
Annihilationism | Conscious existence, Unconscious existence or Non-existence |
Unconscious existence or Non-existence |
Conscious existence | Non-existence |
Conditional immortality | Conscious existence or Unconscious existence |
Unconscious existence or Non-existence |
Conscious existence | Non-existence |
Christian mortalism | Unconscious existence or Non-existence |
Unconscious existence or Non-existence |
Conscious existence | Conscious existence or Non-existence |
Soul sleep | Unconscious existence | Unconscious existence or Non-existence |
Conscious existence | Conscious existence or Non-existence |
Psychopannychism | Unconscious existence | Unconscious existence | Conscious existence | Conscious existence or Non-existence |
Thnetopsychism | Non-existence | Non-existence | Conscious existence | Conscious existence or Non-existence |
St Anselm ( talk) 22:13, 2 January 2011 (UTC) St. Anselm Thank you for coming to talk.
The table is an interesting exercise in mapping out possible theoretical combinations as you see it, and as such might be useful. But from the point of view of a historical article you'd have to allocate real historical figures/movements to each box to show historical reality. And some of those positions are inherently contradictory.
1. However as it is all I see from comparing 16th-20th C sources from various standpoints is different people using different terms. All the below could be used of Milton, Newton, Locke, Hobbes:
who uses it | |
---|---|
Annihilationism | word putting the emphasis that most forms of mortalism don't include a universal resurrection |
Conditional immortality | word used by Seventh Day Adventists (Froom) |
Christian mortalism | word used by scholars of Milton (Burns) |
Soul sleep | word used by Calvin himself in the subtitle: "le sommeil de l'âme" |
Psychopannychism | word used by writers who misread the Graeco-Latin pretitle of Calvin's booklet |
Thnetopsychism | word used by writers who realised that pan-nychis means Calvin's own view |
Annihilationism however clearly does have a separate axis in that (per article) there are sourced historical identification of Anglicans and Lutherans who have taught that souls are conscious in the intermediate state, but agree with Luther of a Last Day annihilation. But the other 5 terms.... even Milton scholars cannot allocate Milton to one or another.
2. Also I do not think "Unconscious existence or Non-existence" can be distinguished. "Existence" is in Luther's work a function of language - he speaks of Abraham "living to God" which to Luther was an adoption of metaphysical Johannine language, but it doesn't mean that Luther has a line between "Unconscious existence or Non-existence" as if "existence with no mind and no body" is materially different from "non-existence." Here for example Irmgard Wilhelm-Schaffer Gottes Beamter und Spielmann des Teufels Der Tod in Spätmittelalter (1999) states "Aufgrund biblischer Aussagen räumt Luther die Existenz einiger weniger Ausnahmen vom Seelenschlaf ein. Es handelt sich dabei um Personen wie Moses und Elias, die Jesus erschienen waren; grundsätzlich kommt der Schlaf als Zwischenzustand ..." "Unconscious existence or Non-existence" is semantics and can be discussed in a paragraph on semantics, who uses what word. But unless we can source "Luther taught Unconscious existence but Nicholas Amsdorf taught Non-existence" (sic), then semantics isn't historical concrete reality. In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:05, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Incidentally, American English generally dispenses with the hyphen ("-") between non and the term being dichotomized.
Just as "unconscious" and "dead" are not synonyms, so too, "existence" and "nonexistence" are not synonyms. It seems quite simple to distinguish between "existence" and "nonexistence", since one exists and the other does not.
That is why (perhaps the only reason why) the term "
soul sleep" was mildly useful: as an umbrella term for both
psychopannychism and
thnetopsychism. I had used
Christian mortalism as nearly synonymous with
soul sleep, but if that is incorrect than
my move should be reverted.
Oh, and it should perhaps be clarified that thnetopsychists generally hold that a thing which exists only in thought or memory doesn't literally "exist" but can be brought into literal existence divinely (compare
Proverbs 10:7 and
Romans 4:17)--
AuthorityTam (
talk)
17:24, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
St. Anselm, I see you are back, with more wholesale deletions of footnote references from the article, despite repeatedly having been asked not to go deleting footnote references. These aren't generally refs/sources I've put in by the way, but I was the previous edit so I won't undo - yet. I see your reason given for this (not here where discussion has been, but on the history view) "Modern scholarship: pruning the quote farm - there was some awful copy-and-pasting here, probably in violation of copyright" .... Question: How would footnotes be in breach of copyright? For example (picked at random, I don't have time to look in detail at what you've done), why have you deleted this:
In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:51, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
For clarity (for myself if no one else) just inserting the paragraph that all the below is about:
As early as 1917 Harvey Scott could write "That there is no definite affirmation, in the Old Testament of the doctrine of a future life, or personal immortality, is the general consensus of Biblical scholarship.".[140] The modern scholarly consensus is that the canonical teaching of the Old Testament made no reference to an "immortal soul" independent of the body.[141][142][143][144] This view is represented consistently in a wide range of scholarly reference works.[145][146][147][148][149][150] Philip Johnston argues that a few Psalms, such as Psalm 16, Psalm 49 and Psalm 73, "affirm a continued communion with God after death," but "give no elaboration of how, when or where this communion will take place."[151] A review of nine standard scholarly Jewish and Christian sources[152] shows that the majority of them describe the Biblical view of the state of the dead in terms identical or very close to the mortalist view.[not in citation given][improper synthesis?][153][154][155][156][157][158][159][160][161][162] <Insertion of article text ends here. No comment. In ictu oculi ( talk) 13:16, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
I will add more and rephrase this section.-- Taiwan boi ( talk) 07:11, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
I posted this at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Christian mortalism, and the opinion there was that "A review of nine standard scholarly Jewish and Christian sources shows that the majority of them describe the Biblical view of the state of the dead in terms identical or very close to the mortalist view" was original research. St Anselm ( talk) 22:48, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Can someone with time check please In ictu oculi ( talk) 02:00, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Time for it to go I believe.-- Taiwan boi ( talk) 17:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
So, how about that POV tag?-- Taiwan boi ( talk) 04:51, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
In the absence of any further objections after two weeks, I have removed the tag.-- Taiwan boi ( talk) 06:03, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
"among medieval era rabbis such as Isaac of Nineveh (d.700)" - I understand the idea that Isaac believed in soul sleep, but calling him a rabbi? On what authority?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_of_Nineveh
Isaac of Nineveh (died c. 700) also remembered as Isaac the Syrian and Isaac Syrus was a Seventh century bishop and theologian best remembered for his written work. He is also regarded as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
He was christian theologian, bishop and a saint. I doubt he was a rabbi following Jewish laws.-- Otherguylb ( talk) 04:56, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Hi editors, would anyone kind tell me why Immortality of the soul redirects to this article? I believe such an article existed before but it was redirected. Thanks. Tamsier ( talk) 21:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I added a section describing the teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I am not an experienced editor, so it is very rough. I am open to feedback, especially on the appropriate way to cite the relevant scriptures. Terrel Shumway ( talk) 16:58, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Christian mortalism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "bauckham":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 22:35, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
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This article seems to discuss what seems to me to be two distinct issues:
the belief that the human soul is not naturally immortal
the belief that the soul is uncomprehendingimmediately after death.
While I understand that these views are related. I think they should be split into different articles. What do others think? Daask ( talk) 16:37, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Can someone who’s knowledgeable about Wikipedia add the links “Conditional Immortality” and “Soul in the Bible” to this article?? It’s time that this article gets a little more improved!! SassyForAReason ( talk) 15:44, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
I’ve added more arguments for Christian Mortalism and added info to the introduction paragraph. I copied and pasted them from three different Wikipedia articles, “Conditional Immortality,” “Last Judgment,” and “Christian Anthology.” I’ve also used the term “soul sleep” throughout the article since I think that Jehovah Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventists use it. Any improvement would help. Thanks. 😊❤️🙏 2601:407:C400:733:DDFF:1FA5:686C:B37A ( talk) 23:57, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
I object to the term "soul sleep" to refer to the beliefs described here. That does not accurately reflect these beliefs. Most who do not accept the inherent immortality of the human soul do not believe the soul "sleeps"! They believe the soul or person ceases to exist at death! 66.38.21.220 ( talk) 03:09, 22 June 2024 (UTC)