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I removed the recent good faith edit in the lead stating that [the listed people groups] are "the sole progeny of Adam and Eve (non-white races being "pre-Adamic")." As written, this is not necessarily true of all CI and requires too much nuance for inclusion in the lead. Yes, most CI adherents would say that they are the sole progeny of Adam AND Eve - with emphasis on "and". But for a Serpent Seed believer, Eve had progeny with the Serpent, resulting in the line of Cain, making a cursory reading of that sentence false, or unclear and easily misunderstood at best. These topics are covered in detail in the beliefs section already, so it is not necessary to include it here. ButlerBlog ( talk) 12:45, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
I see there are some controversies about the name of this article. Maybe the name of the article could be changed, even if "Christian Identity" is the primary name of the topic, so that readers do not get confused. Similarly, the article Eastern Orthodox Church is not called Orthodox Church for the sake of clarity. I think the readers' comprehension is more important ( WP:NORULES) than WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Veverve ( talk) 16:51, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
to help readers locate a different article if the one they are at is not the one they're looking for, and if that doesn't cover it, the lead, which is
an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents, certainly does. God forbid you have to actually read something to know what the article is about. We wouldn't want people to have to do that in an encyclopedia. ButlerBlog ( talk) 12:09, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Re: adding them to "related" links, aside from the fact that that list is entirely too long already, I have never seen any reliable source noting either of them as a CI adherent. I have seen plenty of sources (reliable and otherwise) that note a connection to CI groups and followers, especially the obvious one - Elohim City. But having an association with CI groups isn't the same as being a follower of CI. In their case, I'm fairly certain the association is merely one of mutual interest in terrorist activity, but not mutual theology. Additionally, the only RS-backed information I've seen on McVeigh as far as religious beliefs are concerned is that he was once Catholic, and then shifted to more atheist/agnostic tendencies. ButlerBlog ( talk) 21:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
"BUT" that connection is to specific groups and individuals"...? This seems like a case of self-contradiction. RS is crystal clear that the "groups and individuals" McVeigh associated with were Christian Identity adherents, such as Robert G. Millar, the Ku Klux Klan during McVeigh's Army days and the Nichols brothers "who were fueled by the Posse Comitatus (organization)'s ideology that included the religious element of Christian Identity" - SPLC. All backed up by RS. Now, no one here is suggesting that McVeigh belongs in the lead, but your refusal to consider any inclusion of this agreed upon "connection" within our article seems to also miss the point...If we cannot come to some form of consensus here to at least mention their "connection" with McVeigh or the OKC bombing, there are other options. I would prefer to save us both the time and effort by finding a simple solution we can both agree on here. Cheers. DN ( talk) 18:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
RS is crystal clear that the "groups and individuals" McVeigh associated with were Christian Identity adherents,- you're clearly missing my point, and to be frank, it's exhausting. So fine... go ahead; add it to the related section. ButlerBlog ( talk) 19:31, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Recently, I have worked to incorporate key elements from the "related" section into the article itself so that it's not just a random dumping ground of CI related articles (we don't need to link every CI article - that's what categorization is for). All that was left were some less than "key" people that, while of interest and technically related, are not necessary for the article. From the original list and what I worked into the prose so far, they were the leftovers. The one possible exception to that is August Kries, who might be mentioned as the successor to Aryan Nations, but honestly, that's more relevant to the AN article, which is already linked in this article. TBH, all of them are available by looking at the category. If someone objects, I'm open to listening to your compelling reason. But IMO, it makes more sense to incorporate anyone "worthy" (for lack of a better term) of inclusion into the article itself (which I have done with as much of that list as I could). ButlerBlog ( talk) 15:52, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
I took out the sentence about Pelley being influenced by British-Israelism. The section is specifically about the early influences on the development of CI. As it was describing Pelley being influenced by BI and is unrelated to CI's early development, it is out of place in a random, shoe-horned in there kind of way. Further, the source was very weak on connecting Pelley to any influence on CI. It makes one statement suggesting that "it could be argued" that his millenarian views were an influence, but leaves it at that - essentially making the off-the-cuff comment based on conjecture with no support. If this is going to be brought back in, it needs to make more sense in the relational context as well as needing stronger sourcing. ButlerBlog ( talk) 21:15, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Christian Identity article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 180 days |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||
This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
I removed the recent good faith edit in the lead stating that [the listed people groups] are "the sole progeny of Adam and Eve (non-white races being "pre-Adamic")." As written, this is not necessarily true of all CI and requires too much nuance for inclusion in the lead. Yes, most CI adherents would say that they are the sole progeny of Adam AND Eve - with emphasis on "and". But for a Serpent Seed believer, Eve had progeny with the Serpent, resulting in the line of Cain, making a cursory reading of that sentence false, or unclear and easily misunderstood at best. These topics are covered in detail in the beliefs section already, so it is not necessary to include it here. ButlerBlog ( talk) 12:45, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
I see there are some controversies about the name of this article. Maybe the name of the article could be changed, even if "Christian Identity" is the primary name of the topic, so that readers do not get confused. Similarly, the article Eastern Orthodox Church is not called Orthodox Church for the sake of clarity. I think the readers' comprehension is more important ( WP:NORULES) than WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Veverve ( talk) 16:51, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
to help readers locate a different article if the one they are at is not the one they're looking for, and if that doesn't cover it, the lead, which is
an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents, certainly does. God forbid you have to actually read something to know what the article is about. We wouldn't want people to have to do that in an encyclopedia. ButlerBlog ( talk) 12:09, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Re: adding them to "related" links, aside from the fact that that list is entirely too long already, I have never seen any reliable source noting either of them as a CI adherent. I have seen plenty of sources (reliable and otherwise) that note a connection to CI groups and followers, especially the obvious one - Elohim City. But having an association with CI groups isn't the same as being a follower of CI. In their case, I'm fairly certain the association is merely one of mutual interest in terrorist activity, but not mutual theology. Additionally, the only RS-backed information I've seen on McVeigh as far as religious beliefs are concerned is that he was once Catholic, and then shifted to more atheist/agnostic tendencies. ButlerBlog ( talk) 21:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
"BUT" that connection is to specific groups and individuals"...? This seems like a case of self-contradiction. RS is crystal clear that the "groups and individuals" McVeigh associated with were Christian Identity adherents, such as Robert G. Millar, the Ku Klux Klan during McVeigh's Army days and the Nichols brothers "who were fueled by the Posse Comitatus (organization)'s ideology that included the religious element of Christian Identity" - SPLC. All backed up by RS. Now, no one here is suggesting that McVeigh belongs in the lead, but your refusal to consider any inclusion of this agreed upon "connection" within our article seems to also miss the point...If we cannot come to some form of consensus here to at least mention their "connection" with McVeigh or the OKC bombing, there are other options. I would prefer to save us both the time and effort by finding a simple solution we can both agree on here. Cheers. DN ( talk) 18:59, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
RS is crystal clear that the "groups and individuals" McVeigh associated with were Christian Identity adherents,- you're clearly missing my point, and to be frank, it's exhausting. So fine... go ahead; add it to the related section. ButlerBlog ( talk) 19:31, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
Recently, I have worked to incorporate key elements from the "related" section into the article itself so that it's not just a random dumping ground of CI related articles (we don't need to link every CI article - that's what categorization is for). All that was left were some less than "key" people that, while of interest and technically related, are not necessary for the article. From the original list and what I worked into the prose so far, they were the leftovers. The one possible exception to that is August Kries, who might be mentioned as the successor to Aryan Nations, but honestly, that's more relevant to the AN article, which is already linked in this article. TBH, all of them are available by looking at the category. If someone objects, I'm open to listening to your compelling reason. But IMO, it makes more sense to incorporate anyone "worthy" (for lack of a better term) of inclusion into the article itself (which I have done with as much of that list as I could). ButlerBlog ( talk) 15:52, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
I took out the sentence about Pelley being influenced by British-Israelism. The section is specifically about the early influences on the development of CI. As it was describing Pelley being influenced by BI and is unrelated to CI's early development, it is out of place in a random, shoe-horned in there kind of way. Further, the source was very weak on connecting Pelley to any influence on CI. It makes one statement suggesting that "it could be argued" that his millenarian views were an influence, but leaves it at that - essentially making the off-the-cuff comment based on conjecture with no support. If this is going to be brought back in, it needs to make more sense in the relational context as well as needing stronger sourcing. ButlerBlog ( talk) 21:15, 19 July 2024 (UTC)