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I removed the atheist links because of 1.non-notable 2. Request from CARM. Falphin 16:49, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. CARM is directly responsible for the offshoot that became AARM, so it is notable. Mdavidn 17:04, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have after reviewing the site. In response I will argue that it is not CARMS fault for AARM. The cause was atheists that disagreed with CARMS policies. So the cause is the atheists not CARM. Therfore it is not notable and it is not wikipedias responsibility to make something notable. Falphin 17:11, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I still disagree. The reasons for AARM's creation are somewhat complex, and I do not wish to be drawn into that discussion. However, it should be noted that these "atheists" were happy at the CARM forums for many years before the sudden formation of AARM, so I do not see how it could be argued that they are exclusively to blame. It should also be noted that the participants at AARM are not all atheist. I still believe the link is notable. Mdavidn 17:26, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I understand I doubt a full agreement can be made on the topic. But I do want to thank you for paying attention to the article. Falphin 18:51, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
external link. Yes, it will be removed as nonsense, inappropriate.
"Redirect vandalism Redirecting articles or talk pages to offensive articles or images."
According to the directions and guidelines stated above, linking to articles or talk pages that are "offensive" is considered Vandalism. The links to the discussion boards listed to AARM and Atheists websites are extremely offensive in language and content. CARM does not want to be associated with such offensive links, it is vandalism.
[2] [3] [4] refers about this page [5] Falphin 21:19, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There should be no personal attacks in the articles OR discussions
Also stated in guidelines that there should not be advertising. The link posted is for advertising purposes to promote the website that does not in fact have anything at all to do with the CARM website. The discussion boards is attacking individuals with offensive language. It links to a discussion board as an advertisment FOR the discussion board that is offensive, and personally attacking.
"There are two types of wikispam: advertisements masquerading as articles, and wide-scale external link spamming. Articles considered advertisements include those that are solicitations for a business, product or service,...... or are public relations pieces designed to promote a company or individual...... Wikispam articles are usually noted for sales-oriented language and external links to a commercial website. A differentiation should be made between spam articles and legitimate articles about commercial entities, however.
This is neither CARM's article nor their website, and as such, they do not have veto rights over the article or what gets linked from it. Rick K 21:41, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
He said above that forums are not usually used in Wiki articles...well AARM is only a discussion forum, it is not a website with articles but just discussion boards, so that is the answer already, they don't belong here....AARM has no content or webpages other than discussion boards..
"No thanks, their forum software crashes my browser. Anyway, forums are generally not considered suitable sources for Wikipedia articles. All we are trying to figure out is if there is some legitimate reason not to include these links. Thanks, -Willmcw 21:03, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)"
....this should be resolved since the links are atheists forums, not sources...
.....No, that is not the only reason. According to Wiki, the site linked should be "proper, tasteful." The information is about CARM, to offer discussion boards of atheists in AARM that are foul in langague and content is certainly not adding 'useful, tasteful' material to the content of the article. Whether the person named or not, the material in the link is not tasteful, and certainly not appropriate for all audiences to read....
"In Wikipedia, it is possible to link to external websites. Such links are referred to as "external links". Many articles have a small section containing a few external links. There are a few things which should be considered when adding an external link. 1. Is it accessible? 2. Is it proper? (useful, tasteful, etc?) 3. Is it entered correctly? In general, external links should be accessible by the widest audience possible."
....By the way, Hyperbole, what is your name, your real name? If you have the idea that you know what Matt and Diane think, and are aware of what is or is not legitimate, maybe you could tell us WHO you are and why you claim some authority to know what Matt and Diane are thinking? AARM is not the best source, the people don't even have the guts to use their real names on AARM. Matt and Diane are real people, using their real names, with real friends, family, that will read this article linked to a group of user nick names slandering REAL people. The people on AARM do not indentify who or what they are. CARM has posted real, full names on the Home Pages, of the administrators. AARM linked is a group of 'KKK' type individuals, hiding behind user names as the 'hoods' they hide under so they can THEN slander real people with REAL Christian ministries. AARM should not be considered a 'source' of truth on anything, when the individuals involved will not even sign their real names to their slander on AARM but attack others with criticism that are using real names and have the courage to defend what they believe using REAL names. If any one of the persons with the criticisms, used their REAL, full names, with accurate, factual criticism, the link would be a bit more appropriate or believeable in its criticisms. Already stated in this discussion by another, quotes, criticism, should be done by using the name of a person, and THEN posting their quote, Joe Smith said such about their experience, etc. Hardly seems legitimate to post a slanderous, libel discussion board with a group of user names. As another said, anyone can say anything on discussion boards, they are anonymous, so why post a link with a bunch of words, written by a group refusing to identify themselves, that could even be all one person using 100 sign on names.
By the way, Matt and Diane don't care if people read AARM. According to emails and pm's we receive, it is the best advertisment for readers to see what behaviors should be expected of Atheists on a website without rules. :-) Rather, I should say, people posing as atheists and friends, as again, they do not use REAL names, who knows what they are.
At least there should be a disclaimer that CARM is not responsible for the 'external links' and does not approve of the language used in the links. People reading this article may THINK someone from CARM approved of the links and article and should be told somewhere in the article, CARM is not responsible for anything written in this website or the external links.
I copyedited the Perspective section. But the section probably should be redone and put in the Criticism section, we also need a section on CARM's moral and social viewpoints like the Answers in Genesis article. Falphin 22:09, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Two versions (the second paragraph of the section hasn't changed and isn't included here):
That's a big change. Do we have any evidence for what "most" citics believe? If we assume that the websites under the "opposition" links are the critivcs, can we characterize them as non-Protestants who complain about Slick's debate tactics? There seems to be some critics who are Mormons as well, I don't see those mentioned. Overall, this section should be better sourced. - Willmcw 22:28, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
Just as unnamed critics are frowned upon, so are unnamed supporters. This section needs sources too. I'm cutting this graf down until we can find specific sources that we can quote or attribute. Slick himself could be one. - Willmcw 23:10, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
For the opposite point of view, there is the guestbook located here, with comments on CARM http://new.carmforums.org/cgi-bin/dcguest2/dcguest.cgi
....Then why link the opposite in the AARM discussion forums? Why is it appropriate to post a link to discussion boards criticizing CARM and not post a link to other opinions? I truly do not understand why an Atheist discussion board is linked to a Christian Apologetics Encyl. article. What is the rationale and purpose? As you stated, anyone can say anything on discussion boards, so why link AARM as it is a link to discussion boards? Di... ps, I don't know how to get my name to appear on this page....sorry! How do I post to the discussion and have my sign on appear...
I found others, while AARM I suppose will stay here is others that we can decide which to keep on the page which to get rid of. Falphin 21:03, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Oppose
Pro
Neutral
Other
a debate probably can't be used.
Some editors have removed Slick's reply to Monkeypox. One noted in the edit summary, "Removed link to hateful editorial, not encylopedic material", and the other wrote, " removed insulting and vilifying piece against the Moslem religion". After reading it I do not see how that essay can be considered insulting, hateful, villifying, or unencyclopedic (though the last is moot, since it is not in the encyclopedia). The only time that Slick directly addresses Islam is in this section, which I've copied:
While it is possible that, as Monkeypox claims, Slick has misinterpreted the passage, this hardly seems to be hateful. Can the editors who are removing this link please explain why they find this link unacceptable? Thanks, - Willmcw 04:26, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
...I will remove all of my comments eventually from this page, since the vandals are editing my words to say something I did not say.
Removed and edited added sections on atheist opinions of Slick, or CARM, Slick hate sites removed. In checking to other apologetic wiki entries there are no pages to atheist websites or to opposition desiring to attack the atheist position on any other religious apologetics websites. To inclued pages that are slandering by opinion is not with the spirit of NPOV. If you check Mormon apologetics or apologetics articles it is not noted to opposition websites being linked. I checked Atheists articles, there are no Christian links to opposing views. Why does this article have to show the opposing view that is more about slander and libel, yet the other religious articles on Wiki do not have opposing views linked on their pages. According to Wiki guidelines and policies as quoted below, there are to be no personal attacks on Wiki where the foundation may be found responsible for the slander. To link such websites to the CARM website is to expose Wikipedia to "legal sanction." There may also be copyright violations, has anyone contacted Mr. Slick for permission to use his writings or name on Wiki?
"Similarly, slander, libel, or defamation of character is not to be tolerated on Wikipedia; true instances of such writing, that might legitimately expose Wikipedia to legal sanction, should immediately be called to the attention of an administrator and/or the community at large. Disagreements as to the identity of a person, their motivations for a given action, opinions of third parties about them, etc. do not fall under slander, however, and you should not use legal threats as a bludgeon to get your POV enshrined in an article." Per Wikipedia guidelines and official policies. Interested Party
Removed and edited added sections on atheist opinions of Slick, or CARM, Slick hate sites removed. In checking to other apologetic wiki entries there are no pages to atheist websites or to opposition desiring to attack the atheist position on any other religious apologetics websites. To inclued pages that are slandering by opinion is not with the spirit of NPOV. If you check Mormon apologetics or apologetics articles it is not noted to opposition websites being linked. I checked Atheists articles, there are no Christian links to opposing views. Why does this article have to show the opposing view that is more about slander and libel, yet the other religious articles on Wiki do not have opposing views linked on their pages. According to Wiki guidelines and policies as quoted below, there are to be no personal attacks on Wiki where the foundation may be found responsible for the slander. To link such websites to the CARM website is to expose Wikipedia to "legal sanction." There may also be copyright violations, has anyone contacted Mr. Slick for permission to use his writings or name on Wiki?
"Similarly, slander, libel, or defamation of character is not to be tolerated on Wikipedia; true instances of such writing, that might legitimately expose Wikipedia to legal sanction, should immediately be called to the attention of an administrator and/or the community at large. Disagreements as to the identity of a person, their motivations for a given action, opinions of third parties about them, etc. do not fall under slander, however, and you should not use legal threats as a bludgeon to get your POV enshrined in an article." Per Wikipedia guidelines and official policies. Interested Party
I suggest you read the Wiki policies as to links to inappropriate websites. Simply go to the links and check the content of the links. There is obscene language, slander, libel, personal insults and attacks that are not factual content but for "shock" value. It is stated shock sites are to be removed immediately. Please show me a link to another article on atheism where there is also a link to a christian website as an opposing view. This article on Matt Slick and CARM is not presenting a NPOV when it is noted to links to "shock sites." Perhaps I should appeal this to Wikipedia foundation as to the article being used for "propaganda" which is also not permitted per the wiki guidelines. Are you aware that the link to one of the discussion boards has pornographic content in one area of discussion? Have you checked the link content at all? Read the guideline below that the link should not violate the NPOV.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_propaganda_machine The link is a propaganda website to attack the person of Mr. Slick and his ministry with libel and slander. If you believe such content is permitted on Wiki, would you please list the guideline or policy here that states a person or group may use Wiki to promote their propaganda?
"Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive. Anyone reading Wikipedia can edit an article and the changes are displayed instantaneously without any checking to ensure appropriateness, so Wikipedia cannot guarantee that articles or images are appropriate for children or adhere to specific social norms. While obviously inappropriate content (such as inappropriate links to shock sites) is usually removed immediately, except from an article directly concerning the content (such as the article about pornography), some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links, provided they do not violate any of our existing policies (especially Neutral point of view), nor the law of the state of Florida in the United States, where the servers are hosted.
By the way, the group from the atheist discussion boards involved to editing this page actually boast of coming to Wiki to write the article and propaganda with attacks on the person of Mr. Slick and CARM.
"Similarly, slander, libel, or defamation of character is not to be tolerated on Wikipedia; true instances of such writing, that might legitimately expose Wikipedia to legal sanction, should immediately be called to the attention of an administrator and/or the community at large."
Interested Party 16:45, 5 August 2005 (UTC)~~
Comments made in the perspective section have no factual basis to suggest what critics say or what supporters say. Where is the evidence or documentation to what critics say? You cannot just place an opinion or propaganda without evidence to support the statement. List the quote of the person or persons stating there are complaints about the moderation. Who decided there were such complaints, where do we find the documentation that such complaints exist? This article is about "propaganda" and there needs to be a review by the wikipedia foundation to the editing and opinions written in this article without facts or support to slander and libel written with no support or documentation to the accusations being made. How do we proceed to appeal the edits on this webpage? 17:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)~~ Interested Party
......You would be wrong to the CARM officials continuing to support the "libel" of the anticarm website discussion boards being linked, upon further investigation and counsel, we do not approve of such websites linked that are attacking our character and person. We were misled to the rules initially and upon further reports realize that the WIKI articles is being used to defame.....
.....Several CARM members are contributing to this discussion in our discussing the article and giving opinions, though only one of us typing in giving just our opinion. :-)We would be happy to include our names but due to the 'stalker' types that have attacked CARM members in the past with hate mail, etc. and the fact the users here do not use real names, we will not include our names until the time necessary to appealing this to the wikipedia foundation.
1. It is our opinion, the atheist discussion boards should not be linked, as the person states above, discussion boards are not usually posted so why here and in this article? This is an obvious disregard for the wikipedia guidelines, rules to linking chat rooms or discussion by anonymous users.
2. According to the guidelines, if it is a 'shock site' propaganda type website with 'inappropriate' content of libel and slander of persons it should be removed immediately and it is our opinion that the website is such a 'shock site' in using foul language and personal insults and attack and is not with keeping to the NPOV.
3. As for the opinion that the other boards give a different POV on CARM, is again not completely accurate. Our opinion is that a 'shock site' that may be slanderous, libelous of the persons administrating CARM is not giving a different POV on CARM but simply using a wikipedia article to promote propaganda and slander. The CARM discussion boards already give an opposite POV, and the administrators of this wiki article should examine the fact that the CARM discussion boards have an Atheism board, where there are many Atheists giving their POV in keeping with the rules to not using libel or slander to make a point. If the opposite POV is the issue, then link to the CARM JW, LDS and Atheism boards where all points of view are permitted.
4. We have posted in this discussion with our opinion of all of the guidelines being violated by the link and comments on the person of Mr. Slick, and the CARM ministry. It is our opinion, the link should be removed to protect the wikipedia foundation as it may cause a 'libel sanction' for wikipedia according to their own guidelines, is noted by the opinion of some to be a 'shock site' that is supposed to be removed immediately per the guidelines, is not noted to be a "scholarly" point of view on CARM, but opinions of chatters on a discussion forum 198.65.167.211 18:25, 6 August 2005 (UTC)Interested Parties
posted the CARM response to the aarm boards.
Correct the number of user stats
Critics of CARM commonly complain about CARM's forums' rules, which they consider confusing, ambiguous, and subjective. Another common complaint is that CARM's administration uses moderation to diminish opposition to Evangelical beliefs.
Where is the documentation for the 'common' complaints? Is there a source documented that indicates the complaints are common or are the complaints someones opinion? Who made that decision and where do we find the fact that these are common complaints. Or is this about the minority that have complained?
Tom S 48
02:30, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed any and all discussion boards and blogs (also those of CARM) which ar not referred to in the text. The articles which are referred to in the article are listed under References - [Wikipedia:External links]. I also moved general Countercult sites to Christian countercult movement. Also I formatted the article more in Wikipedia style -- Irmgard 13:40, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the complaints about CARM, I have attributed them and given a reference for each. Neiter general critical nor general positive remarks are NPOV. -- Irmgard 13:45, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
You may not use references or links to personal websites, partisan groups, such as you have listed in the article. It is forbidden by wikipedia to use atheist websites as they are partisan in opinions, with an agenda to attack Christian websites. Please read the rules of Reliable Sources: "Do they have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report? Remember that conflicts of interest are not always explicitly exposed and bias is not always self-evident. However, that a source has strong views is not necessarily a reason not to use it, although editors should avoid using----- Groups like these may be used as primary sources only i.e. as sources about themselves,--other atheist groups--- and even then with caution and sparingly. Peggy Sue 18:46, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Irmgard, I had rewritten the section on contraversy in order to include the details of the critics because of the feuding here by atheist groups. I do prefer your edit, however there also should not be any links to partisan groups. I would appreciate your editing as accurate but the references and links to personal websites of partisan groups should also be removed according to guidelines. I think your approach is accurate to a NPOV and I would agree to your edit if you remove the links to the personal websites where the authors are not identified as published, scholars in the field and do have a partisan agenda. Thank you for your fair and NPOV. Peggy Sue 18:53, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Reverted to Irmgards excellent, NPOV but I did remove the personal websites of the partisan groups that are not accurate or reliable sources. This page finally looking as it should. Good work Irmgard! :-) Peggy Sue 19:03, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Please take note, that accusations of censurship by users banned for forum rules violation in moderated discussion boards are too common to be noteworthy (ask any moderator of a moderated forum). And when such users then move to another forum or open another forum where the former rules do not apply, this again happens so often, that there is no need to describe it at length in an encyclopedia (except maybe in an article about the social psychology of participants in internet debates). So this is nothing that's special to CARM or to the CARM discussion boards and if it gets one short para in the article that's almost more than it deserves. -- Irmgard 20:49, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
To Irmgard: I would agree to your position having worked as a moderator on busy discussion forums and chat rooms. I want to thank you as an administrator for giving this article your attention, we have needed an unbiased opinion here for months as an admin. As explained to another admin here, but he suggests that he does not have interest, the group editing this article daily do have an agenda. Please see that the editor, Hyperbole, MdavidN and several others are active members of the AARM forums, http://aarm.mywowbb.com/users/148.html and began this article on CARM, Matt Slick and Ratcliff with a noted bias to controlling the edits of any other contributor in ignoring the wikipedia guidelines repeatedly to their including discussion boards, blogs, and links to personal websites of individuals that had been suspended from the CARM boards. The CARM ministry is huge, a very small part to having discussion boards and the wikipedia article is constantly reverted to the opinions of hyperbole, mdavid and others to focusing on complaints from banned posters. The websites that are linked even now are simply posters that were suspended from CARM for rule violations and are not published or of websites of the same calibur as CARM. Hardly wikipedia material to include links to posters removed from websites for rule violations.
Please revert back to your orginal edit of a very small paragraph minus all the links and comments concerning moderators, etc. It was the only edit thus far that was accurate and NPOV. There is no purpose to including AARM discussion boards an any wikipedia article as there are thousands of such small boards and I will certainly vote for its removal and deletion. I must add that the persons creating this article did so with the intent to advertising their hostile discussion boards from the beginning and continue to edit daily to anyone removing the aarm discussion boards or hostile chat rooms. Simply look to the history, other editors repeatedly and constantly deleted and removed by hyperbole who is an active aarm board poster. Would also point you to the Matt Slick article which is more of the same to POV and information not necessary to a wikipedia article, also written, edited and controlled daily by hyperbole. Interested Party 21:40, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Will people please stop reverting the article? That doesn't really help move it forwrd at all. If need be, we can ask to have the page locked while users use these discussion pages to reach a consensus. - Willmcw 06:11, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
Tentmaker link is a personal website, against the rules. Gary A. is TENTMAKER, banned from discussion forums as to his trolling, it is not an appropriate link to a wikipedia article, he was removed, banned from discussion forums as a troll, his website is a personal rant, according to guidelines is NOT to be used as a source, OR external link, see post on Matt slick discussion. Wikipedia does not use personal rants, of unauthorized websites links. We will only remove the links from the rant webpages and will attempt to find a credible criticism by a reliable source as a criticism of CARM. Will not revert but will remove the link till someone provides a guideline suggesting personal rant websites are to be used for references or links. Peggy Sue.
I will fix this section, PLEASE don't remove the corrected verson unless you revert back to a discussed version. Yes Irmgard did a clean up but this revert is not the version approved by everyone. Look at the errors
"As many other moderated discussion forums, the CARM forums are also occasionally under fire from people who were excluded due to breaking the forum rules and who interpret this exclusion als censure of their views. This got especially violent [6] when in 2001 the CARM Universalism board in 2001 was closed down and an accompanying ban of all discussion of Universalism by CARM due to the numerous flame wars, insults and ad hominem attacks involved in the discussions with the Universalists on CARM [7]. 2001 John W. Ratcliff in whose view some atheists were being systematically excluded from CARM, created an alternative unmoderated forum AARM, independent from CARM and with less strictly observed rules. This resulted in an atheist exodus from CARM into the alternative forum. As there are several users on this forum which have been banned or suspended by CARM, the mutual relations are nothing less than amicable. [8] will fix this with the help of Irmgard. Peggy
Here's the official guideline. This article is in violation with Editors that continue to add back in the links to the personal websites and discussion blogs...
From Wikipedia: Reliable sources: "At the other end of the reliability scale lie personal websites and weblogs, which are not acceptable as sources. Many websites are created by unknown individuals who have no one checking their work. They may be uninformed, misled, pushing an agenda, sloppy, relying on rumor and suspicion, or insane; or they may be intelligent, careful people sharing their knowledge with the world. Visiting a stranger's personal web page is often the online equivalent of reading an unattributed flyer on a lamp post, and should be treated accordingly — with significant skepticism. Partisan political and religious sources should be treated with caution. An extreme political website should never be used as a source for Wikipedia except in articles discussing the opinions of that organization or the opinions of a larger like-minded group."
Universalism links by Tentmaker should only be linked to Universalism groups. Atheism discussion boards are not to be used. Kathylon website is a personal website, should only be used for Atheism articles. Troy Brooks, Christianity Forums, is a link to a discussion board. The mormonism article is from a partisan group they should be included only on Mormon articles. The section on John Ratcliff and aarm should be deleted as it is a very small discussion board with thousands like it. CARM suspended posters will create boards and then they die out..... Please group, let's stop with the links to propaganda personal websites, and nonsense discussion boards as Irmgard states, very common....Peggy03:09, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
To Willwmc and Irmgard: List here a link to your talk. Hyperbole is lying in the history of CARM. Tom, Peggy, Interested Party, will give you our phone numbers to discuss the edits, and we told you they were slandererss on the aarm board and is why we were originally using only Interested Parties to sign. Now we ask that you remove the false accusations from the history edits of hyperbole, as we will give you our phone numbers and IP numbers and ask to speak with you on the phone in order to PROVE he is lying and that the three of us do live in New Jersey. Which is why we are editing with IP's and not signing on, he accuses all three of us constantly. Peggy00:25, 23 August 2005 (UTC) Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Matt_Slick"
From Wikipedia: Reliable sources: "At the other end of the reliability scale lie personal websites and weblogs, which are not acceptable as sources. Many websites are created by unknown individuals who have no one checking their work. They may be uninformed, misled, pushing an agenda, sloppy, relying on rumor and suspicion, or insane; or they may be intelligent, careful people sharing their knowledge with the world. Visiting a stranger's personal web page is often the online equivalent of reading an unattributed flyer on a lamp post, and should be treated accordingly — with significant skepticism. Partisan political and religious sources should be treated with caution. An extreme political website should never be used as a source for Wikipedia except in articles discussing the opinions of that organization or the opinions of a larger like-minded group." Peggy Sue 17:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
External linksEvaluating Web Pages: Techniques to Apply & Questions to Ask from the University of California, Berkeley
Critically Analyzing Information Sources from Cornell University
Retrieved from "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Researching_with_Wikipedia"“
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/TeachingLib/Guides/Internet/Evaluate.html
What are the author's credentials on this subject?
Retrieved from "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules"
Urbie
22:08, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
CARM has somewhat more than 6,000 registered users. It's received, over the last year, an average of around 900 posts per day, and since that's fallen in the last few months, it's safe to say CARM receives no more than 750 posts per day. Thus, the idea that 6,000 users are active on the site is ridiculous. Diane claims she "cleans" out inactive users every three months, but a quick glance over CARM's site shows that to be untrue. For starters, I still have a "registered" account there. Even Limana still has a registered account there, despite having been deactivated and having not made a posting for a year. Now, there are four basic choices here:
I'd like to see a suggestion or two from someone other than the Dianes. I just don't feel comfortable with the article representing CARM as some gigantic message board with thousands and thousands of posters when, in reality, it's quite slow compared to others I've seen. -- Hyperbole 05:01, 26 August 2005 (
Every three months, we delete the accounts back one year. If a person not posting in a year they are removed. Since Limana just logged in to attack a user a few months back, her account will not be removed till a YEAR from the date we dump the files. We remove all users BACK a year every three months and we removed ALL the posts back to January 2005 as you can see in pages going back. We may or may not continue to dump the user list as most websites leave their lists forever, CARM only leaves the list to anyone not logging in for a year. Again, every three months we DELETE all accounts not active for a year. Tell us, how many have the aarm boards deleted, and are they all active? Probably 20 active users on aarm. So tell Limana NOT to sign in to personally insult users and her account will also be deleted one year from her last insult in the ratings.
Please do not bring up encyclopedic when you add nonsense discussion forums to the references. Remove the CARM boards entirely and then REMOVE the ridiculous aarm forums, if you want to be encyclopedic. But please don't suggest these articles resemble any encyclopedic article, as they do not.
If you are going to mention "slow" discussion boards, how about the 10 people that post daily to the boards, YOU have linked here? They shouldn't even be mentioned and you want to compare what is or isn't slow? CARM is not ABOUT discussion boards, it is a ministry with 25,000 hits a week. At last count on the counter, the boards received more then a million a month. And the boards are NOT slow, but the average as they always are every summer. The only slow times was a month where we had software problems that have since been resolved.
Take OFF the discussion boards totally, who cares. Remove all discussion about the boards, they are a very small part of CARM, and then remove all the rest of the nonsense that is posted about the 20 people leaving CARM boards to start their own. It is ridiculous and not necessary to the article, and NO ONE CARES, but the 3 or 4 atheists here.
Don't even try to tell us what the stats are, you are completely making it up in your head as well as the rest of the propaganda you posted here. I read the stats and you are way off. CARM boards are not trying to BUILD our numbers, we remove threads and posters to keep the boards clean, we are not trying to have the LARGEST numbers on the boards, if so, we wouldn't continue to dump the threads and the user lists. This article is trashy, biased, POV and no one will believe a word of it anyway. User:Peggy Sue 03:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I removed the atheist links because of 1.non-notable 2. Request from CARM. Falphin 16:49, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. CARM is directly responsible for the offshoot that became AARM, so it is notable. Mdavidn 17:04, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have after reviewing the site. In response I will argue that it is not CARMS fault for AARM. The cause was atheists that disagreed with CARMS policies. So the cause is the atheists not CARM. Therfore it is not notable and it is not wikipedias responsibility to make something notable. Falphin 17:11, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I still disagree. The reasons for AARM's creation are somewhat complex, and I do not wish to be drawn into that discussion. However, it should be noted that these "atheists" were happy at the CARM forums for many years before the sudden formation of AARM, so I do not see how it could be argued that they are exclusively to blame. It should also be noted that the participants at AARM are not all atheist. I still believe the link is notable. Mdavidn 17:26, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I understand I doubt a full agreement can be made on the topic. But I do want to thank you for paying attention to the article. Falphin 18:51, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
external link. Yes, it will be removed as nonsense, inappropriate.
"Redirect vandalism Redirecting articles or talk pages to offensive articles or images."
According to the directions and guidelines stated above, linking to articles or talk pages that are "offensive" is considered Vandalism. The links to the discussion boards listed to AARM and Atheists websites are extremely offensive in language and content. CARM does not want to be associated with such offensive links, it is vandalism.
[2] [3] [4] refers about this page [5] Falphin 21:19, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
There should be no personal attacks in the articles OR discussions
Also stated in guidelines that there should not be advertising. The link posted is for advertising purposes to promote the website that does not in fact have anything at all to do with the CARM website. The discussion boards is attacking individuals with offensive language. It links to a discussion board as an advertisment FOR the discussion board that is offensive, and personally attacking.
"There are two types of wikispam: advertisements masquerading as articles, and wide-scale external link spamming. Articles considered advertisements include those that are solicitations for a business, product or service,...... or are public relations pieces designed to promote a company or individual...... Wikispam articles are usually noted for sales-oriented language and external links to a commercial website. A differentiation should be made between spam articles and legitimate articles about commercial entities, however.
This is neither CARM's article nor their website, and as such, they do not have veto rights over the article or what gets linked from it. Rick K 21:41, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
He said above that forums are not usually used in Wiki articles...well AARM is only a discussion forum, it is not a website with articles but just discussion boards, so that is the answer already, they don't belong here....AARM has no content or webpages other than discussion boards..
"No thanks, their forum software crashes my browser. Anyway, forums are generally not considered suitable sources for Wikipedia articles. All we are trying to figure out is if there is some legitimate reason not to include these links. Thanks, -Willmcw 21:03, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)"
....this should be resolved since the links are atheists forums, not sources...
.....No, that is not the only reason. According to Wiki, the site linked should be "proper, tasteful." The information is about CARM, to offer discussion boards of atheists in AARM that are foul in langague and content is certainly not adding 'useful, tasteful' material to the content of the article. Whether the person named or not, the material in the link is not tasteful, and certainly not appropriate for all audiences to read....
"In Wikipedia, it is possible to link to external websites. Such links are referred to as "external links". Many articles have a small section containing a few external links. There are a few things which should be considered when adding an external link. 1. Is it accessible? 2. Is it proper? (useful, tasteful, etc?) 3. Is it entered correctly? In general, external links should be accessible by the widest audience possible."
....By the way, Hyperbole, what is your name, your real name? If you have the idea that you know what Matt and Diane think, and are aware of what is or is not legitimate, maybe you could tell us WHO you are and why you claim some authority to know what Matt and Diane are thinking? AARM is not the best source, the people don't even have the guts to use their real names on AARM. Matt and Diane are real people, using their real names, with real friends, family, that will read this article linked to a group of user nick names slandering REAL people. The people on AARM do not indentify who or what they are. CARM has posted real, full names on the Home Pages, of the administrators. AARM linked is a group of 'KKK' type individuals, hiding behind user names as the 'hoods' they hide under so they can THEN slander real people with REAL Christian ministries. AARM should not be considered a 'source' of truth on anything, when the individuals involved will not even sign their real names to their slander on AARM but attack others with criticism that are using real names and have the courage to defend what they believe using REAL names. If any one of the persons with the criticisms, used their REAL, full names, with accurate, factual criticism, the link would be a bit more appropriate or believeable in its criticisms. Already stated in this discussion by another, quotes, criticism, should be done by using the name of a person, and THEN posting their quote, Joe Smith said such about their experience, etc. Hardly seems legitimate to post a slanderous, libel discussion board with a group of user names. As another said, anyone can say anything on discussion boards, they are anonymous, so why post a link with a bunch of words, written by a group refusing to identify themselves, that could even be all one person using 100 sign on names.
By the way, Matt and Diane don't care if people read AARM. According to emails and pm's we receive, it is the best advertisment for readers to see what behaviors should be expected of Atheists on a website without rules. :-) Rather, I should say, people posing as atheists and friends, as again, they do not use REAL names, who knows what they are.
At least there should be a disclaimer that CARM is not responsible for the 'external links' and does not approve of the language used in the links. People reading this article may THINK someone from CARM approved of the links and article and should be told somewhere in the article, CARM is not responsible for anything written in this website or the external links.
I copyedited the Perspective section. But the section probably should be redone and put in the Criticism section, we also need a section on CARM's moral and social viewpoints like the Answers in Genesis article. Falphin 22:09, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Two versions (the second paragraph of the section hasn't changed and isn't included here):
That's a big change. Do we have any evidence for what "most" citics believe? If we assume that the websites under the "opposition" links are the critivcs, can we characterize them as non-Protestants who complain about Slick's debate tactics? There seems to be some critics who are Mormons as well, I don't see those mentioned. Overall, this section should be better sourced. - Willmcw 22:28, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
Just as unnamed critics are frowned upon, so are unnamed supporters. This section needs sources too. I'm cutting this graf down until we can find specific sources that we can quote or attribute. Slick himself could be one. - Willmcw 23:10, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
For the opposite point of view, there is the guestbook located here, with comments on CARM http://new.carmforums.org/cgi-bin/dcguest2/dcguest.cgi
....Then why link the opposite in the AARM discussion forums? Why is it appropriate to post a link to discussion boards criticizing CARM and not post a link to other opinions? I truly do not understand why an Atheist discussion board is linked to a Christian Apologetics Encyl. article. What is the rationale and purpose? As you stated, anyone can say anything on discussion boards, so why link AARM as it is a link to discussion boards? Di... ps, I don't know how to get my name to appear on this page....sorry! How do I post to the discussion and have my sign on appear...
I found others, while AARM I suppose will stay here is others that we can decide which to keep on the page which to get rid of. Falphin 21:03, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Oppose
Pro
Neutral
Other
a debate probably can't be used.
Some editors have removed Slick's reply to Monkeypox. One noted in the edit summary, "Removed link to hateful editorial, not encylopedic material", and the other wrote, " removed insulting and vilifying piece against the Moslem religion". After reading it I do not see how that essay can be considered insulting, hateful, villifying, or unencyclopedic (though the last is moot, since it is not in the encyclopedia). The only time that Slick directly addresses Islam is in this section, which I've copied:
While it is possible that, as Monkeypox claims, Slick has misinterpreted the passage, this hardly seems to be hateful. Can the editors who are removing this link please explain why they find this link unacceptable? Thanks, - Willmcw 04:26, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
...I will remove all of my comments eventually from this page, since the vandals are editing my words to say something I did not say.
Removed and edited added sections on atheist opinions of Slick, or CARM, Slick hate sites removed. In checking to other apologetic wiki entries there are no pages to atheist websites or to opposition desiring to attack the atheist position on any other religious apologetics websites. To inclued pages that are slandering by opinion is not with the spirit of NPOV. If you check Mormon apologetics or apologetics articles it is not noted to opposition websites being linked. I checked Atheists articles, there are no Christian links to opposing views. Why does this article have to show the opposing view that is more about slander and libel, yet the other religious articles on Wiki do not have opposing views linked on their pages. According to Wiki guidelines and policies as quoted below, there are to be no personal attacks on Wiki where the foundation may be found responsible for the slander. To link such websites to the CARM website is to expose Wikipedia to "legal sanction." There may also be copyright violations, has anyone contacted Mr. Slick for permission to use his writings or name on Wiki?
"Similarly, slander, libel, or defamation of character is not to be tolerated on Wikipedia; true instances of such writing, that might legitimately expose Wikipedia to legal sanction, should immediately be called to the attention of an administrator and/or the community at large. Disagreements as to the identity of a person, their motivations for a given action, opinions of third parties about them, etc. do not fall under slander, however, and you should not use legal threats as a bludgeon to get your POV enshrined in an article." Per Wikipedia guidelines and official policies. Interested Party
Removed and edited added sections on atheist opinions of Slick, or CARM, Slick hate sites removed. In checking to other apologetic wiki entries there are no pages to atheist websites or to opposition desiring to attack the atheist position on any other religious apologetics websites. To inclued pages that are slandering by opinion is not with the spirit of NPOV. If you check Mormon apologetics or apologetics articles it is not noted to opposition websites being linked. I checked Atheists articles, there are no Christian links to opposing views. Why does this article have to show the opposing view that is more about slander and libel, yet the other religious articles on Wiki do not have opposing views linked on their pages. According to Wiki guidelines and policies as quoted below, there are to be no personal attacks on Wiki where the foundation may be found responsible for the slander. To link such websites to the CARM website is to expose Wikipedia to "legal sanction." There may also be copyright violations, has anyone contacted Mr. Slick for permission to use his writings or name on Wiki?
"Similarly, slander, libel, or defamation of character is not to be tolerated on Wikipedia; true instances of such writing, that might legitimately expose Wikipedia to legal sanction, should immediately be called to the attention of an administrator and/or the community at large. Disagreements as to the identity of a person, their motivations for a given action, opinions of third parties about them, etc. do not fall under slander, however, and you should not use legal threats as a bludgeon to get your POV enshrined in an article." Per Wikipedia guidelines and official policies. Interested Party
I suggest you read the Wiki policies as to links to inappropriate websites. Simply go to the links and check the content of the links. There is obscene language, slander, libel, personal insults and attacks that are not factual content but for "shock" value. It is stated shock sites are to be removed immediately. Please show me a link to another article on atheism where there is also a link to a christian website as an opposing view. This article on Matt Slick and CARM is not presenting a NPOV when it is noted to links to "shock sites." Perhaps I should appeal this to Wikipedia foundation as to the article being used for "propaganda" which is also not permitted per the wiki guidelines. Are you aware that the link to one of the discussion boards has pornographic content in one area of discussion? Have you checked the link content at all? Read the guideline below that the link should not violate the NPOV.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_propaganda_machine The link is a propaganda website to attack the person of Mr. Slick and his ministry with libel and slander. If you believe such content is permitted on Wiki, would you please list the guideline or policy here that states a person or group may use Wiki to promote their propaganda?
"Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive. Anyone reading Wikipedia can edit an article and the changes are displayed instantaneously without any checking to ensure appropriateness, so Wikipedia cannot guarantee that articles or images are appropriate for children or adhere to specific social norms. While obviously inappropriate content (such as inappropriate links to shock sites) is usually removed immediately, except from an article directly concerning the content (such as the article about pornography), some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links, provided they do not violate any of our existing policies (especially Neutral point of view), nor the law of the state of Florida in the United States, where the servers are hosted.
By the way, the group from the atheist discussion boards involved to editing this page actually boast of coming to Wiki to write the article and propaganda with attacks on the person of Mr. Slick and CARM.
"Similarly, slander, libel, or defamation of character is not to be tolerated on Wikipedia; true instances of such writing, that might legitimately expose Wikipedia to legal sanction, should immediately be called to the attention of an administrator and/or the community at large."
Interested Party 16:45, 5 August 2005 (UTC)~~
Comments made in the perspective section have no factual basis to suggest what critics say or what supporters say. Where is the evidence or documentation to what critics say? You cannot just place an opinion or propaganda without evidence to support the statement. List the quote of the person or persons stating there are complaints about the moderation. Who decided there were such complaints, where do we find the documentation that such complaints exist? This article is about "propaganda" and there needs to be a review by the wikipedia foundation to the editing and opinions written in this article without facts or support to slander and libel written with no support or documentation to the accusations being made. How do we proceed to appeal the edits on this webpage? 17:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)~~ Interested Party
......You would be wrong to the CARM officials continuing to support the "libel" of the anticarm website discussion boards being linked, upon further investigation and counsel, we do not approve of such websites linked that are attacking our character and person. We were misled to the rules initially and upon further reports realize that the WIKI articles is being used to defame.....
.....Several CARM members are contributing to this discussion in our discussing the article and giving opinions, though only one of us typing in giving just our opinion. :-)We would be happy to include our names but due to the 'stalker' types that have attacked CARM members in the past with hate mail, etc. and the fact the users here do not use real names, we will not include our names until the time necessary to appealing this to the wikipedia foundation.
1. It is our opinion, the atheist discussion boards should not be linked, as the person states above, discussion boards are not usually posted so why here and in this article? This is an obvious disregard for the wikipedia guidelines, rules to linking chat rooms or discussion by anonymous users.
2. According to the guidelines, if it is a 'shock site' propaganda type website with 'inappropriate' content of libel and slander of persons it should be removed immediately and it is our opinion that the website is such a 'shock site' in using foul language and personal insults and attack and is not with keeping to the NPOV.
3. As for the opinion that the other boards give a different POV on CARM, is again not completely accurate. Our opinion is that a 'shock site' that may be slanderous, libelous of the persons administrating CARM is not giving a different POV on CARM but simply using a wikipedia article to promote propaganda and slander. The CARM discussion boards already give an opposite POV, and the administrators of this wiki article should examine the fact that the CARM discussion boards have an Atheism board, where there are many Atheists giving their POV in keeping with the rules to not using libel or slander to make a point. If the opposite POV is the issue, then link to the CARM JW, LDS and Atheism boards where all points of view are permitted.
4. We have posted in this discussion with our opinion of all of the guidelines being violated by the link and comments on the person of Mr. Slick, and the CARM ministry. It is our opinion, the link should be removed to protect the wikipedia foundation as it may cause a 'libel sanction' for wikipedia according to their own guidelines, is noted by the opinion of some to be a 'shock site' that is supposed to be removed immediately per the guidelines, is not noted to be a "scholarly" point of view on CARM, but opinions of chatters on a discussion forum 198.65.167.211 18:25, 6 August 2005 (UTC)Interested Parties
posted the CARM response to the aarm boards.
Correct the number of user stats
Critics of CARM commonly complain about CARM's forums' rules, which they consider confusing, ambiguous, and subjective. Another common complaint is that CARM's administration uses moderation to diminish opposition to Evangelical beliefs.
Where is the documentation for the 'common' complaints? Is there a source documented that indicates the complaints are common or are the complaints someones opinion? Who made that decision and where do we find the fact that these are common complaints. Or is this about the minority that have complained?
Tom S 48
02:30, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed any and all discussion boards and blogs (also those of CARM) which ar not referred to in the text. The articles which are referred to in the article are listed under References - [Wikipedia:External links]. I also moved general Countercult sites to Christian countercult movement. Also I formatted the article more in Wikipedia style -- Irmgard 13:40, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Regarding the complaints about CARM, I have attributed them and given a reference for each. Neiter general critical nor general positive remarks are NPOV. -- Irmgard 13:45, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
You may not use references or links to personal websites, partisan groups, such as you have listed in the article. It is forbidden by wikipedia to use atheist websites as they are partisan in opinions, with an agenda to attack Christian websites. Please read the rules of Reliable Sources: "Do they have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report? Remember that conflicts of interest are not always explicitly exposed and bias is not always self-evident. However, that a source has strong views is not necessarily a reason not to use it, although editors should avoid using----- Groups like these may be used as primary sources only i.e. as sources about themselves,--other atheist groups--- and even then with caution and sparingly. Peggy Sue 18:46, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Irmgard, I had rewritten the section on contraversy in order to include the details of the critics because of the feuding here by atheist groups. I do prefer your edit, however there also should not be any links to partisan groups. I would appreciate your editing as accurate but the references and links to personal websites of partisan groups should also be removed according to guidelines. I think your approach is accurate to a NPOV and I would agree to your edit if you remove the links to the personal websites where the authors are not identified as published, scholars in the field and do have a partisan agenda. Thank you for your fair and NPOV. Peggy Sue 18:53, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Reverted to Irmgards excellent, NPOV but I did remove the personal websites of the partisan groups that are not accurate or reliable sources. This page finally looking as it should. Good work Irmgard! :-) Peggy Sue 19:03, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Please take note, that accusations of censurship by users banned for forum rules violation in moderated discussion boards are too common to be noteworthy (ask any moderator of a moderated forum). And when such users then move to another forum or open another forum where the former rules do not apply, this again happens so often, that there is no need to describe it at length in an encyclopedia (except maybe in an article about the social psychology of participants in internet debates). So this is nothing that's special to CARM or to the CARM discussion boards and if it gets one short para in the article that's almost more than it deserves. -- Irmgard 20:49, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
To Irmgard: I would agree to your position having worked as a moderator on busy discussion forums and chat rooms. I want to thank you as an administrator for giving this article your attention, we have needed an unbiased opinion here for months as an admin. As explained to another admin here, but he suggests that he does not have interest, the group editing this article daily do have an agenda. Please see that the editor, Hyperbole, MdavidN and several others are active members of the AARM forums, http://aarm.mywowbb.com/users/148.html and began this article on CARM, Matt Slick and Ratcliff with a noted bias to controlling the edits of any other contributor in ignoring the wikipedia guidelines repeatedly to their including discussion boards, blogs, and links to personal websites of individuals that had been suspended from the CARM boards. The CARM ministry is huge, a very small part to having discussion boards and the wikipedia article is constantly reverted to the opinions of hyperbole, mdavid and others to focusing on complaints from banned posters. The websites that are linked even now are simply posters that were suspended from CARM for rule violations and are not published or of websites of the same calibur as CARM. Hardly wikipedia material to include links to posters removed from websites for rule violations.
Please revert back to your orginal edit of a very small paragraph minus all the links and comments concerning moderators, etc. It was the only edit thus far that was accurate and NPOV. There is no purpose to including AARM discussion boards an any wikipedia article as there are thousands of such small boards and I will certainly vote for its removal and deletion. I must add that the persons creating this article did so with the intent to advertising their hostile discussion boards from the beginning and continue to edit daily to anyone removing the aarm discussion boards or hostile chat rooms. Simply look to the history, other editors repeatedly and constantly deleted and removed by hyperbole who is an active aarm board poster. Would also point you to the Matt Slick article which is more of the same to POV and information not necessary to a wikipedia article, also written, edited and controlled daily by hyperbole. Interested Party 21:40, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Will people please stop reverting the article? That doesn't really help move it forwrd at all. If need be, we can ask to have the page locked while users use these discussion pages to reach a consensus. - Willmcw 06:11, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
Tentmaker link is a personal website, against the rules. Gary A. is TENTMAKER, banned from discussion forums as to his trolling, it is not an appropriate link to a wikipedia article, he was removed, banned from discussion forums as a troll, his website is a personal rant, according to guidelines is NOT to be used as a source, OR external link, see post on Matt slick discussion. Wikipedia does not use personal rants, of unauthorized websites links. We will only remove the links from the rant webpages and will attempt to find a credible criticism by a reliable source as a criticism of CARM. Will not revert but will remove the link till someone provides a guideline suggesting personal rant websites are to be used for references or links. Peggy Sue.
I will fix this section, PLEASE don't remove the corrected verson unless you revert back to a discussed version. Yes Irmgard did a clean up but this revert is not the version approved by everyone. Look at the errors
"As many other moderated discussion forums, the CARM forums are also occasionally under fire from people who were excluded due to breaking the forum rules and who interpret this exclusion als censure of their views. This got especially violent [6] when in 2001 the CARM Universalism board in 2001 was closed down and an accompanying ban of all discussion of Universalism by CARM due to the numerous flame wars, insults and ad hominem attacks involved in the discussions with the Universalists on CARM [7]. 2001 John W. Ratcliff in whose view some atheists were being systematically excluded from CARM, created an alternative unmoderated forum AARM, independent from CARM and with less strictly observed rules. This resulted in an atheist exodus from CARM into the alternative forum. As there are several users on this forum which have been banned or suspended by CARM, the mutual relations are nothing less than amicable. [8] will fix this with the help of Irmgard. Peggy
Here's the official guideline. This article is in violation with Editors that continue to add back in the links to the personal websites and discussion blogs...
From Wikipedia: Reliable sources: "At the other end of the reliability scale lie personal websites and weblogs, which are not acceptable as sources. Many websites are created by unknown individuals who have no one checking their work. They may be uninformed, misled, pushing an agenda, sloppy, relying on rumor and suspicion, or insane; or they may be intelligent, careful people sharing their knowledge with the world. Visiting a stranger's personal web page is often the online equivalent of reading an unattributed flyer on a lamp post, and should be treated accordingly — with significant skepticism. Partisan political and religious sources should be treated with caution. An extreme political website should never be used as a source for Wikipedia except in articles discussing the opinions of that organization or the opinions of a larger like-minded group."
Universalism links by Tentmaker should only be linked to Universalism groups. Atheism discussion boards are not to be used. Kathylon website is a personal website, should only be used for Atheism articles. Troy Brooks, Christianity Forums, is a link to a discussion board. The mormonism article is from a partisan group they should be included only on Mormon articles. The section on John Ratcliff and aarm should be deleted as it is a very small discussion board with thousands like it. CARM suspended posters will create boards and then they die out..... Please group, let's stop with the links to propaganda personal websites, and nonsense discussion boards as Irmgard states, very common....Peggy03:09, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
To Willwmc and Irmgard: List here a link to your talk. Hyperbole is lying in the history of CARM. Tom, Peggy, Interested Party, will give you our phone numbers to discuss the edits, and we told you they were slandererss on the aarm board and is why we were originally using only Interested Parties to sign. Now we ask that you remove the false accusations from the history edits of hyperbole, as we will give you our phone numbers and IP numbers and ask to speak with you on the phone in order to PROVE he is lying and that the three of us do live in New Jersey. Which is why we are editing with IP's and not signing on, he accuses all three of us constantly. Peggy00:25, 23 August 2005 (UTC) Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Matt_Slick"
From Wikipedia: Reliable sources: "At the other end of the reliability scale lie personal websites and weblogs, which are not acceptable as sources. Many websites are created by unknown individuals who have no one checking their work. They may be uninformed, misled, pushing an agenda, sloppy, relying on rumor and suspicion, or insane; or they may be intelligent, careful people sharing their knowledge with the world. Visiting a stranger's personal web page is often the online equivalent of reading an unattributed flyer on a lamp post, and should be treated accordingly — with significant skepticism. Partisan political and religious sources should be treated with caution. An extreme political website should never be used as a source for Wikipedia except in articles discussing the opinions of that organization or the opinions of a larger like-minded group." Peggy Sue 17:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
External linksEvaluating Web Pages: Techniques to Apply & Questions to Ask from the University of California, Berkeley
Critically Analyzing Information Sources from Cornell University
Retrieved from "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Researching_with_Wikipedia"“
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/TeachingLib/Guides/Internet/Evaluate.html
What are the author's credentials on this subject?
Retrieved from "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules"
Urbie
22:08, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
CARM has somewhat more than 6,000 registered users. It's received, over the last year, an average of around 900 posts per day, and since that's fallen in the last few months, it's safe to say CARM receives no more than 750 posts per day. Thus, the idea that 6,000 users are active on the site is ridiculous. Diane claims she "cleans" out inactive users every three months, but a quick glance over CARM's site shows that to be untrue. For starters, I still have a "registered" account there. Even Limana still has a registered account there, despite having been deactivated and having not made a posting for a year. Now, there are four basic choices here:
I'd like to see a suggestion or two from someone other than the Dianes. I just don't feel comfortable with the article representing CARM as some gigantic message board with thousands and thousands of posters when, in reality, it's quite slow compared to others I've seen. -- Hyperbole 05:01, 26 August 2005 (
Every three months, we delete the accounts back one year. If a person not posting in a year they are removed. Since Limana just logged in to attack a user a few months back, her account will not be removed till a YEAR from the date we dump the files. We remove all users BACK a year every three months and we removed ALL the posts back to January 2005 as you can see in pages going back. We may or may not continue to dump the user list as most websites leave their lists forever, CARM only leaves the list to anyone not logging in for a year. Again, every three months we DELETE all accounts not active for a year. Tell us, how many have the aarm boards deleted, and are they all active? Probably 20 active users on aarm. So tell Limana NOT to sign in to personally insult users and her account will also be deleted one year from her last insult in the ratings.
Please do not bring up encyclopedic when you add nonsense discussion forums to the references. Remove the CARM boards entirely and then REMOVE the ridiculous aarm forums, if you want to be encyclopedic. But please don't suggest these articles resemble any encyclopedic article, as they do not.
If you are going to mention "slow" discussion boards, how about the 10 people that post daily to the boards, YOU have linked here? They shouldn't even be mentioned and you want to compare what is or isn't slow? CARM is not ABOUT discussion boards, it is a ministry with 25,000 hits a week. At last count on the counter, the boards received more then a million a month. And the boards are NOT slow, but the average as they always are every summer. The only slow times was a month where we had software problems that have since been resolved.
Take OFF the discussion boards totally, who cares. Remove all discussion about the boards, they are a very small part of CARM, and then remove all the rest of the nonsense that is posted about the 20 people leaving CARM boards to start their own. It is ridiculous and not necessary to the article, and NO ONE CARES, but the 3 or 4 atheists here.
Don't even try to tell us what the stats are, you are completely making it up in your head as well as the rest of the propaganda you posted here. I read the stats and you are way off. CARM boards are not trying to BUILD our numbers, we remove threads and posters to keep the boards clean, we are not trying to have the LARGEST numbers on the boards, if so, we wouldn't continue to dump the threads and the user lists. This article is trashy, biased, POV and no one will believe a word of it anyway. User:Peggy Sue 03:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)