![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
For those of us who are Unitarian-Universalists, it seems like a big omission not to mention UU views on the subject. JeMa 20:16, Oct 30, 2003 (UTC)
Whose idea was it to insert the statement [Note, Bertrand Russell was a self-described philosophical agnostic and a practical atheist. Of concern to Christians is the Jewish definition of "neighbor" in the context of the "Golden Rule."] into the excerpt from R' Gordis' essay? The only way I can fathom such an insertion is that whoever made it is a covert antisemite or else someone who made this "enlightened observation" without bothering to spend the time learning what the Jewish definition of "neighbor" is in that context. (Leviticus 19:18) First, the word is mistranslated as "neighbor", it actually means "companion" or more loosely, "fellow traveller", and is parallelled 16 verses later, in Leviticus 19:34, with respect to Converts to Judaism. It has, in verse 18, always been understood as "fellow human", and therefore, as an admonition to love everyone, in the words of the Alter of Slobodka: The commandment is to love others kamokha as you love yourself. Just as you love yourself instinctively, without looking for reasons, so you should love others, even without reasons (Quoted from the Stone Edition Chumash, p. 662-3) R' Avraham Yehoshua Heschel of Kopitchinitz is said there to have made essentially the same observation. This is not, however, a unique-to-the-Litvaks, nor "newfangled" interpretation. To quote further back, (from the same source) Nachmanides explains that it is impossible for all but the saintliest people to feel literally the same love for others that they feel for themselves. ... It is human nature to say that we wish others well, but we want less for them than for ourselves. The Torah says no. A Jew can and should condition himself to want others to have the fullest degree of success he wants for himself. Rashi and Sifra record that R' Akiva said that this commandment is the fundamental rule of the Torah, (note: Jesus accords it second rank, and a fundamental philosophical difference between Christianity and Judaism is obviated by that fact...). Further back, this same concept is found in the Talmud, its application being attributed to a variety of rules concerning things from capital punishment to marital relations, and Hillel paraphrased it as "What is hateful to you, do not do to others."
In light of this, I vote that this callous and unstudied "comment" be removed from the article. Thoughts? Flames?
I changed the blatant mischaracterization of traditional Catholicism in this article. Traditional Catholics are not schismatic; except for the Sedevacantists (who are few and far between), we recognize His Holiness Pope John Paul II. And I deleted the following slanderous sentence: "In their view, Jews still are to be held as collectively responsible for murdering God, and all Jews are still believed to be damned unless they convert to Christianity."
Even Msgr Lefebvre accepted the classical Church teaching that outsiders might be saved (though they are saved in spite of their non-Catholic religions, not because of them).-- MegaSilver 23:04, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The traditional Catholic position is this: while it is obvious historical fact that, proximately, it was Jews who used Roman power to kill the one Christians consider the Messiah, it is also true -- and has been taught as true since the Church's beginning -- that we are all responsible. The Catechism of the Council of Trent, issued by Pope St. Pius V (A.D. 1566-1572), taught:
and
It is also a fact that post-Temple Judaism (i.e., Pharisaic rabbinism, as opposed to the religion of the Old Testament) can be characterized by orthodox Christians as a "Deicide" religion in that Jews exult in the death of Christ (per the Talmud, Toledoth Yeshu, etc.), Whom orthodox Christians consider God.
It is also a fact that the animosity between Christians and Jews had little to do with theology (including the rampant Jewish anti-Christianism that never gets mentioned) and much to do with usury. Used2BAnonymous 12:59, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Despite the rhetoric, UsedtoBeanonymous hardly speaks for traditional Catholicism. What the Church teaches is what traditional Catholics believe, some have indeed broken away from Church teaching, which is expressed best by Vatican II
Pope Paul VI in Nostra Aetate (1965):
True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ
In no way does it point to any interchangability of the Jewish faith and Catholic faith, rather, the recognition of the failed leadership of the Pharasees of the time. We may also see this viewpoint from a famous traditionalist, Mel Gibson, in his commentary of the movie, "Passion of the Christ". Recall Vatican II is not universally rejected by traditionalist Catholics, the misuse of the Council and the misapplication to ratify any new innovation in the Church is what traditional Catholics abhor. Dominick (TALK) 13:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
This is just to inform people that I want Wikipedia to accept a general policy that BC and AD represent a Christian Point of View and should be used only when they are appropriate, that is, in the context of expressing or providing an account of a Christian point of view. In other contexts, I argue that they violate our NPOV policy and we should use BCE and CE instead. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/BCE-CE Debate for the detailed proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:55, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
I removed the obviously biased & innacurate statement that the "Reflections on Covenant and Mission" issued jointly by the USCCB & NCS "contract[s] Catholic doctrine." Makrina 01:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The article mentions some of the issues in relation with traditionalist Christians, but doesn't mention the serious problems of Arab Christians, many of which in Palestine have criticized various elements of dialogue which ignore the plight of surrounding peoples of the Middle East, such as controversy over christian zionism and anti-zionism. ADM ( talk) 09:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Need to look into the U.S. Catholic-Jewish Consultation Committee, what ist does, what it is. ADM ( talk) 09:35, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Christian–Jewish reconciliation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:21, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Christian–Jewish reconciliation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:32, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
For those of us who are Unitarian-Universalists, it seems like a big omission not to mention UU views on the subject. JeMa 20:16, Oct 30, 2003 (UTC)
Whose idea was it to insert the statement [Note, Bertrand Russell was a self-described philosophical agnostic and a practical atheist. Of concern to Christians is the Jewish definition of "neighbor" in the context of the "Golden Rule."] into the excerpt from R' Gordis' essay? The only way I can fathom such an insertion is that whoever made it is a covert antisemite or else someone who made this "enlightened observation" without bothering to spend the time learning what the Jewish definition of "neighbor" is in that context. (Leviticus 19:18) First, the word is mistranslated as "neighbor", it actually means "companion" or more loosely, "fellow traveller", and is parallelled 16 verses later, in Leviticus 19:34, with respect to Converts to Judaism. It has, in verse 18, always been understood as "fellow human", and therefore, as an admonition to love everyone, in the words of the Alter of Slobodka: The commandment is to love others kamokha as you love yourself. Just as you love yourself instinctively, without looking for reasons, so you should love others, even without reasons (Quoted from the Stone Edition Chumash, p. 662-3) R' Avraham Yehoshua Heschel of Kopitchinitz is said there to have made essentially the same observation. This is not, however, a unique-to-the-Litvaks, nor "newfangled" interpretation. To quote further back, (from the same source) Nachmanides explains that it is impossible for all but the saintliest people to feel literally the same love for others that they feel for themselves. ... It is human nature to say that we wish others well, but we want less for them than for ourselves. The Torah says no. A Jew can and should condition himself to want others to have the fullest degree of success he wants for himself. Rashi and Sifra record that R' Akiva said that this commandment is the fundamental rule of the Torah, (note: Jesus accords it second rank, and a fundamental philosophical difference between Christianity and Judaism is obviated by that fact...). Further back, this same concept is found in the Talmud, its application being attributed to a variety of rules concerning things from capital punishment to marital relations, and Hillel paraphrased it as "What is hateful to you, do not do to others."
In light of this, I vote that this callous and unstudied "comment" be removed from the article. Thoughts? Flames?
I changed the blatant mischaracterization of traditional Catholicism in this article. Traditional Catholics are not schismatic; except for the Sedevacantists (who are few and far between), we recognize His Holiness Pope John Paul II. And I deleted the following slanderous sentence: "In their view, Jews still are to be held as collectively responsible for murdering God, and all Jews are still believed to be damned unless they convert to Christianity."
Even Msgr Lefebvre accepted the classical Church teaching that outsiders might be saved (though they are saved in spite of their non-Catholic religions, not because of them).-- MegaSilver 23:04, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The traditional Catholic position is this: while it is obvious historical fact that, proximately, it was Jews who used Roman power to kill the one Christians consider the Messiah, it is also true -- and has been taught as true since the Church's beginning -- that we are all responsible. The Catechism of the Council of Trent, issued by Pope St. Pius V (A.D. 1566-1572), taught:
and
It is also a fact that post-Temple Judaism (i.e., Pharisaic rabbinism, as opposed to the religion of the Old Testament) can be characterized by orthodox Christians as a "Deicide" religion in that Jews exult in the death of Christ (per the Talmud, Toledoth Yeshu, etc.), Whom orthodox Christians consider God.
It is also a fact that the animosity between Christians and Jews had little to do with theology (including the rampant Jewish anti-Christianism that never gets mentioned) and much to do with usury. Used2BAnonymous 12:59, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Despite the rhetoric, UsedtoBeanonymous hardly speaks for traditional Catholicism. What the Church teaches is what traditional Catholics believe, some have indeed broken away from Church teaching, which is expressed best by Vatican II
Pope Paul VI in Nostra Aetate (1965):
True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ
In no way does it point to any interchangability of the Jewish faith and Catholic faith, rather, the recognition of the failed leadership of the Pharasees of the time. We may also see this viewpoint from a famous traditionalist, Mel Gibson, in his commentary of the movie, "Passion of the Christ". Recall Vatican II is not universally rejected by traditionalist Catholics, the misuse of the Council and the misapplication to ratify any new innovation in the Church is what traditional Catholics abhor. Dominick (TALK) 13:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
This is just to inform people that I want Wikipedia to accept a general policy that BC and AD represent a Christian Point of View and should be used only when they are appropriate, that is, in the context of expressing or providing an account of a Christian point of view. In other contexts, I argue that they violate our NPOV policy and we should use BCE and CE instead. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/BCE-CE Debate for the detailed proposal. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:55, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
I removed the obviously biased & innacurate statement that the "Reflections on Covenant and Mission" issued jointly by the USCCB & NCS "contract[s] Catholic doctrine." Makrina 01:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The article mentions some of the issues in relation with traditionalist Christians, but doesn't mention the serious problems of Arab Christians, many of which in Palestine have criticized various elements of dialogue which ignore the plight of surrounding peoples of the Middle East, such as controversy over christian zionism and anti-zionism. ADM ( talk) 09:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Need to look into the U.S. Catholic-Jewish Consultation Committee, what ist does, what it is. ADM ( talk) 09:35, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Christian–Jewish reconciliation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:21, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Christian–Jewish reconciliation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:32, 6 August 2017 (UTC)