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Chris McGreal gets criticized by both sides.
CAMERA, a pro-Israel media watch organization, complains that he's anti-Israel
[1], and Arab Media Watch complains he's pro-Israel.
[2] Removing only the cite from Arab Media Watch was a biased edit. So I put it back in. --
John Nagle16:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)reply
External links go at the bottom of articles, in the External links section. Please don't put them in the middle of articles. Thanks.
Jayjg (talk)19:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)reply
There seems to be some sort of mania here for describing CAMERA, or someone, anyone, as "pro-Israel". Aside from the fact that we have a link for CAMERA, and therefore
poisoning the well descriptions are not necessary, the sources themselves are hardly good enough to make the characterization. The first is a highly controversial paper by Mearsheimer and Walt which merely makes this claim. The second is a quote from CAMERA which states that they are perceived that way, but does not admit to actually being "pro-Israel". In fact, the wording indicates that they reject that characterization, as does their website explicity. I could not go about describing, for example,
Hezbollah everywhere as "the terrorist organization Hezbollah", even though many people believe it is a terrorist organization, and governments have even said so - but
WP:NPOV would not allow me to do so. How much more so, then must we avoid characterizing other groups based on the opinion of two individuals in a controversial paper? Please, let's bring and end to this
POV-pushing,
original research violating editing. Wikipedia is not a tabloid newspaper.
Jayjg (talk)17:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
I've been looking back at how we got here. That "Extensive responses" section seems to have originally come from a blog for Rabbis for Human Rights.
[3] and was pasted into the
Israeli Apartheid article. (This
Chris McGreal article was split out of the
Israeli Apartheid article, where McGreal's section was getting too big.) At various points in the history of that article, the phrase "pro-Israel" was used to describe those sources, and not by me. But the people who put that in didn't cite it effectively, and it was removed.
Yes, I'm trying to show that these criticisms come from pro-Israel organizations. There are so many such organizations. Some are openly pro-Israel, like
AIPAC (which calls itself "America's pro-Israel lobby") and
BICOM, which is trying to become the AIPAC of the UK. Some pretend to be neutral, mainly
Honest Reporting and the
Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America. But there are multiple reliable sources demonstrating that they are pro-Israel organizations, like it or not. (Jayjg just deleted some of them, and it's not hard to find more). These organizations are a concern, because they can't be considered a
Wikipedia:Reliable Source. Maybe what we need to do here is to remove cites to those organizations. That may be a more productive direction.
Here's a cute observation. Visit the
"Honest Reporting" website. Check out their keywords: <meta name="keywords" content="Honestreporting media bias against Israel middle east press coverage Israeli-Palestinian conflict mideast Palestinian media bias watchdog monitor pro-israel hasbara middle east reporting media AP Reuters bias roadmap mideast peace mid-east">. Notice the "pro-Israel". That's why they come up in searches for "pro-Israel". Any questions? Really, this ongoing denial that these organizations are pro-Israel is a lost cause. --
John Nagle18:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
To begin with, not only have you not provided "multiple reliable sources demontrating that they are pro-Israel organizations", but you shouldn't even be trying to continually characterize these organizations as pro-Israel - that's just POV-pushing,
original research (as you've just demonstrated), and
poisoning the well, and you've been doing it for a long time, all over the place. I couldn't precede every reference to Hamas in Wikipedia with the phrase "the terrorist organization" (e.g. "according to the spokesman for the terrorist organization Hamas..."), even though I could bring a dozen top-notch sources backing it up. I'm sure you can see why. Second, the tactic of "if I can't discredit them by claiming the are pro-Israel, then I'll try to remove them claiming they are not reliable" will not fly either. We don't expect all Criticism to come from perfectly neutral sources; in fact, most criticism comes from sources that are, well, critical of the subject at hand. Instead of trying to turn Wikipedia into a
soapbox to promote your view that there's a conspiracy of deceptive pro-Israel organizations, all co-ordinated and related in some way, why don't you do that on your blog or personal website instead?
Jayjg (talk)18:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
John, there are two separate issues here. The first is whether CAMERA really is pro-Israel. It says it's a non-partisan organization, so you're just adding your own view by saying they're pro-Israel (or your own source's view, which you're choosing to prioritize). More important than that, however, is that constantly inserting pro-Israel in front of names — whether it's true or false — is an effort to poison the well and push a POV. As Jayjg explained, we can't go around writing "terrorist organization Hezbollah," even though it's true in many people's opinions, just as we don't keep on writing "Jew Abraham Foxman of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League"," or "pro-Palestinian Counterpunch." Sources have to be cited in a way that isn't prejudicial.
SlimVirgin(talk)18:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
OK. Then the question arises as to whether CAMERA can be cited as a
Wikipedia:Reliable source. In this article, an attack from CAMERA is being used to discredit a working journalist from a major publication. Please justify that. Thanks. --
John Nagle18:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
There's nothing in
WP:RS that says partisan sources are by definition not reliable; if that were the case, there would be no reliable sources. Second, CAMERA says it is non-partisan. That it's partisan is a specific POV held by anti-Israeli, anti-Zionist activists and organizations. Third, it is definitely not a "widely acknowledged extremist" organization or a self-published source. There are therefore no grounds on which to declare it's not reliable.
SlimVirgin(talk)19:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
CAMERA is said to be pro-Israel even by pro-Israel sources, as I've repeatedly demonstrated. Here's yet another cite to that, the
Jewish News Weekly of Northern California, "CAMERA, the Boston-based pro-Israel media watchdog". Denying this is futile. As for "extremist", they've attacked ABC, Agence France-Presse, AP, Atlanta Journal Constitution, Boston Globe, CBS, Chicago Tribune, Cox International, Guardian, Ha'aretz, International Herald Tribune, Kids Discover, Los Angeles Times, Miami Herald, MSNBC, NBC, New York Times, Philadelphia Inquirer, San Francisco Chronicle, San Jose Mercury News, Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Post as "not responsive to requests for corrections."
[4] That comes close to
Wikipedia:Reliable_source#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_evidence "Be particularly careful when proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them." CAMERA even accuses
Haaretz of anti-Israel bias. And this is all from pro-Israel information sources. Even the head of CAMERA, Andrea Levin, says CAMERA is pro-Israel.
[5] "The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA) is a leader in the field of pro-Israeli media watching." It doesn't get any clearer than that. --
John Nagle20:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
John, you're missing the point. YOU believe that being "pro-Israel" is a bad thing, a terrible thing, and that it makes groups "widely acknowledged extremists." But that is just your POV. Being pro-Israel doesn't mean they don't say things that are correct; doesn't mean they're not reliable; doesn't mean they're self-published; doesn't mean they're extremist. Also, saying that a bunch of newspapers are "not responsive to requests for corrections" doesn't make them extremists. By "extremists," we mean groups like Stormfront.
SlimVirgin(talk)20:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
We're making progress. It's admitted that CAMERA is partisan. That's fine. Given that, it should be identified as such when cited as an authority. That's all I really ask. I don't really think CAMERA is extremist. What bothers me is the deception; CAMERA claims to be neutral, they're not, and they should't be treated as if they are. I don't complain if someone cites
AIPAC, because AIPAC is upfront about being "America's pro-Israel lobby" and makes no pretense of neutrality. That's proper partisanship, and you know where AIPAC is coming from. CAMERA is something else. --
John Nagle22:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
John, the Guardian is partisan. It is openly pro-Palestinian. But we can't go around announcing them as the pro-Palestinian Guardian. Almost every organization is partisan to some extent. We draw the line at extremism, but that's all.
SlimVirgin(talk)22:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Unlike the Guardian, CAMERA openly acknowledges that it is partisan: "According to its official website, CAMERA is a non-profit, tax-exempt, media watchdog group based in Boston that mostly addresses media coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict, focusing on coverage that it considers unfair to Israel."
Deuterium04:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
John, you still refuse to acknowledge the point; we don't go around calling Hamas "the terrorist organization Hamas" everywhere, for good reason. Please stop trying to indoctrinate Wikipedians with "THE TRUTH". It's not your business, or any other Wikipedian's, to "expose" CAMERA.
Jayjg (talk)02:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
No, we wouldn't call the Guardian "The pro-Palestinian Guardian." Just as we wouldn't call The New Republic the "pro-Israel New Republic." But the Guardian isn't an appropriate comparison with CAMERA. Nor for that matter is Hezbollah. An appropriate comparison would be another comparably partisan media watchdog, such as Electronic Intifada or Ali Abunimah's website. Would we identify them as pro-Palestinian? --
G-Dett23:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)reply
No, that's not a proper analogy. CAMERA does not define itself as pro-Israel, it defines itself as non-Partisan. For you to call it pro-Israel would be OR. A proper analogy would be another media watchdog - FAIR, which is by all objective standards left-leaning, but since it does not describe itself as such, on WP it is not described as "the left-leaning FAIR', or the "liberal FAIR", (and attempts to label it as such are routinely removed by editors).
Isarig04:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)reply
WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level.
BetacommandBot11:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)reply
Unbalanced tag
I added this since nearly 80% of the content here is overly detailed write up of one or two alleged "controversies" or "criticisms", mostly focusing on criticism from pressure groups. Groups of this sort, especially pro-Israel ones, tend to shout loudly about journalists they don't like - it doesn't mean we should build neutral encyclopedia articles around what they say. McGreal is not a polemical commentator who attracts genuine controversy, and the flak reported here is simply overblown. This page needs much more on his career and reporting, and less on faux outrage. One might even question whether he is notable enough as a journalist to have his own page at all, although my thoughts would be that he is. If I get time, I will try to rebalance this page. In the meantime hopefully others will help out with adding or removing stuff. Tag is fully deserved until that happens though. --
Nickhh (
talk)
13:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC)reply
Not quite sure it's the right tag: the article seems farily balanced in reporting the (opposing) criticisms of him. The problem is lack of other content as you state above.
Babakathy (
talk)
11:20, 4 July 2009 (UTC)reply
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
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This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic
Palestine region, the
Palestinian people and the
State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting
the project page, where you can add your name to the
list of members where you can contribute to the
discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Journalism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
journalism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Chris McGreal gets criticized by both sides.
CAMERA, a pro-Israel media watch organization, complains that he's anti-Israel
[1], and Arab Media Watch complains he's pro-Israel.
[2] Removing only the cite from Arab Media Watch was a biased edit. So I put it back in. --
John Nagle16:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)reply
External links go at the bottom of articles, in the External links section. Please don't put them in the middle of articles. Thanks.
Jayjg (talk)19:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)reply
There seems to be some sort of mania here for describing CAMERA, or someone, anyone, as "pro-Israel". Aside from the fact that we have a link for CAMERA, and therefore
poisoning the well descriptions are not necessary, the sources themselves are hardly good enough to make the characterization. The first is a highly controversial paper by Mearsheimer and Walt which merely makes this claim. The second is a quote from CAMERA which states that they are perceived that way, but does not admit to actually being "pro-Israel". In fact, the wording indicates that they reject that characterization, as does their website explicity. I could not go about describing, for example,
Hezbollah everywhere as "the terrorist organization Hezbollah", even though many people believe it is a terrorist organization, and governments have even said so - but
WP:NPOV would not allow me to do so. How much more so, then must we avoid characterizing other groups based on the opinion of two individuals in a controversial paper? Please, let's bring and end to this
POV-pushing,
original research violating editing. Wikipedia is not a tabloid newspaper.
Jayjg (talk)17:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
I've been looking back at how we got here. That "Extensive responses" section seems to have originally come from a blog for Rabbis for Human Rights.
[3] and was pasted into the
Israeli Apartheid article. (This
Chris McGreal article was split out of the
Israeli Apartheid article, where McGreal's section was getting too big.) At various points in the history of that article, the phrase "pro-Israel" was used to describe those sources, and not by me. But the people who put that in didn't cite it effectively, and it was removed.
Yes, I'm trying to show that these criticisms come from pro-Israel organizations. There are so many such organizations. Some are openly pro-Israel, like
AIPAC (which calls itself "America's pro-Israel lobby") and
BICOM, which is trying to become the AIPAC of the UK. Some pretend to be neutral, mainly
Honest Reporting and the
Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America. But there are multiple reliable sources demonstrating that they are pro-Israel organizations, like it or not. (Jayjg just deleted some of them, and it's not hard to find more). These organizations are a concern, because they can't be considered a
Wikipedia:Reliable Source. Maybe what we need to do here is to remove cites to those organizations. That may be a more productive direction.
Here's a cute observation. Visit the
"Honest Reporting" website. Check out their keywords: <meta name="keywords" content="Honestreporting media bias against Israel middle east press coverage Israeli-Palestinian conflict mideast Palestinian media bias watchdog monitor pro-israel hasbara middle east reporting media AP Reuters bias roadmap mideast peace mid-east">. Notice the "pro-Israel". That's why they come up in searches for "pro-Israel". Any questions? Really, this ongoing denial that these organizations are pro-Israel is a lost cause. --
John Nagle18:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
To begin with, not only have you not provided "multiple reliable sources demontrating that they are pro-Israel organizations", but you shouldn't even be trying to continually characterize these organizations as pro-Israel - that's just POV-pushing,
original research (as you've just demonstrated), and
poisoning the well, and you've been doing it for a long time, all over the place. I couldn't precede every reference to Hamas in Wikipedia with the phrase "the terrorist organization" (e.g. "according to the spokesman for the terrorist organization Hamas..."), even though I could bring a dozen top-notch sources backing it up. I'm sure you can see why. Second, the tactic of "if I can't discredit them by claiming the are pro-Israel, then I'll try to remove them claiming they are not reliable" will not fly either. We don't expect all Criticism to come from perfectly neutral sources; in fact, most criticism comes from sources that are, well, critical of the subject at hand. Instead of trying to turn Wikipedia into a
soapbox to promote your view that there's a conspiracy of deceptive pro-Israel organizations, all co-ordinated and related in some way, why don't you do that on your blog or personal website instead?
Jayjg (talk)18:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
John, there are two separate issues here. The first is whether CAMERA really is pro-Israel. It says it's a non-partisan organization, so you're just adding your own view by saying they're pro-Israel (or your own source's view, which you're choosing to prioritize). More important than that, however, is that constantly inserting pro-Israel in front of names — whether it's true or false — is an effort to poison the well and push a POV. As Jayjg explained, we can't go around writing "terrorist organization Hezbollah," even though it's true in many people's opinions, just as we don't keep on writing "Jew Abraham Foxman of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League"," or "pro-Palestinian Counterpunch." Sources have to be cited in a way that isn't prejudicial.
SlimVirgin(talk)18:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
OK. Then the question arises as to whether CAMERA can be cited as a
Wikipedia:Reliable source. In this article, an attack from CAMERA is being used to discredit a working journalist from a major publication. Please justify that. Thanks. --
John Nagle18:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
There's nothing in
WP:RS that says partisan sources are by definition not reliable; if that were the case, there would be no reliable sources. Second, CAMERA says it is non-partisan. That it's partisan is a specific POV held by anti-Israeli, anti-Zionist activists and organizations. Third, it is definitely not a "widely acknowledged extremist" organization or a self-published source. There are therefore no grounds on which to declare it's not reliable.
SlimVirgin(talk)19:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
CAMERA is said to be pro-Israel even by pro-Israel sources, as I've repeatedly demonstrated. Here's yet another cite to that, the
Jewish News Weekly of Northern California, "CAMERA, the Boston-based pro-Israel media watchdog". Denying this is futile. As for "extremist", they've attacked ABC, Agence France-Presse, AP, Atlanta Journal Constitution, Boston Globe, CBS, Chicago Tribune, Cox International, Guardian, Ha'aretz, International Herald Tribune, Kids Discover, Los Angeles Times, Miami Herald, MSNBC, NBC, New York Times, Philadelphia Inquirer, San Francisco Chronicle, San Jose Mercury News, Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Post as "not responsive to requests for corrections."
[4] That comes close to
Wikipedia:Reliable_source#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_evidence "Be particularly careful when proponents say there is a conspiracy to silence them." CAMERA even accuses
Haaretz of anti-Israel bias. And this is all from pro-Israel information sources. Even the head of CAMERA, Andrea Levin, says CAMERA is pro-Israel.
[5] "The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA) is a leader in the field of pro-Israeli media watching." It doesn't get any clearer than that. --
John Nagle20:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
John, you're missing the point. YOU believe that being "pro-Israel" is a bad thing, a terrible thing, and that it makes groups "widely acknowledged extremists." But that is just your POV. Being pro-Israel doesn't mean they don't say things that are correct; doesn't mean they're not reliable; doesn't mean they're self-published; doesn't mean they're extremist. Also, saying that a bunch of newspapers are "not responsive to requests for corrections" doesn't make them extremists. By "extremists," we mean groups like Stormfront.
SlimVirgin(talk)20:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
We're making progress. It's admitted that CAMERA is partisan. That's fine. Given that, it should be identified as such when cited as an authority. That's all I really ask. I don't really think CAMERA is extremist. What bothers me is the deception; CAMERA claims to be neutral, they're not, and they should't be treated as if they are. I don't complain if someone cites
AIPAC, because AIPAC is upfront about being "America's pro-Israel lobby" and makes no pretense of neutrality. That's proper partisanship, and you know where AIPAC is coming from. CAMERA is something else. --
John Nagle22:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
John, the Guardian is partisan. It is openly pro-Palestinian. But we can't go around announcing them as the pro-Palestinian Guardian. Almost every organization is partisan to some extent. We draw the line at extremism, but that's all.
SlimVirgin(talk)22:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Unlike the Guardian, CAMERA openly acknowledges that it is partisan: "According to its official website, CAMERA is a non-profit, tax-exempt, media watchdog group based in Boston that mostly addresses media coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict, focusing on coverage that it considers unfair to Israel."
Deuterium04:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
John, you still refuse to acknowledge the point; we don't go around calling Hamas "the terrorist organization Hamas" everywhere, for good reason. Please stop trying to indoctrinate Wikipedians with "THE TRUTH". It's not your business, or any other Wikipedian's, to "expose" CAMERA.
Jayjg (talk)02:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)reply
No, we wouldn't call the Guardian "The pro-Palestinian Guardian." Just as we wouldn't call The New Republic the "pro-Israel New Republic." But the Guardian isn't an appropriate comparison with CAMERA. Nor for that matter is Hezbollah. An appropriate comparison would be another comparably partisan media watchdog, such as Electronic Intifada or Ali Abunimah's website. Would we identify them as pro-Palestinian? --
G-Dett23:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)reply
No, that's not a proper analogy. CAMERA does not define itself as pro-Israel, it defines itself as non-Partisan. For you to call it pro-Israel would be OR. A proper analogy would be another media watchdog - FAIR, which is by all objective standards left-leaning, but since it does not describe itself as such, on WP it is not described as "the left-leaning FAIR', or the "liberal FAIR", (and attempts to label it as such are routinely removed by editors).
Isarig04:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)reply
WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level.
BetacommandBot11:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)reply
Unbalanced tag
I added this since nearly 80% of the content here is overly detailed write up of one or two alleged "controversies" or "criticisms", mostly focusing on criticism from pressure groups. Groups of this sort, especially pro-Israel ones, tend to shout loudly about journalists they don't like - it doesn't mean we should build neutral encyclopedia articles around what they say. McGreal is not a polemical commentator who attracts genuine controversy, and the flak reported here is simply overblown. This page needs much more on his career and reporting, and less on faux outrage. One might even question whether he is notable enough as a journalist to have his own page at all, although my thoughts would be that he is. If I get time, I will try to rebalance this page. In the meantime hopefully others will help out with adding or removing stuff. Tag is fully deserved until that happens though. --
Nickhh (
talk)
13:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC)reply
Not quite sure it's the right tag: the article seems farily balanced in reporting the (opposing) criticisms of him. The problem is lack of other content as you state above.
Babakathy (
talk)
11:20, 4 July 2009 (UTC)reply