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The article history of Chinesse Democracy was created several years ago in attempt to control the constant flow of rumors and leaks while this album was in it's decades long recording process. I'm not sure how wise a move this was to begin with and now the two articles are basically redundant of each other. I propose all information be moved to this article -I'm pretty sure it is all here already-- and that article be redirected here where it should be and where it can easily be maintained.
http://www.fasterlouder.com.au/features/35134/Guns-N-Roses-Dizzy-Reed-Im-very-proud-of-Chinese-Democracy I call the big one bitey 22:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Retrohead ( talk · contribs) 17:24, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
I'll be glad to review the most expensive rock album in history that reached mythical proportions. Comments to follow soon.--
Retrohead (
talk)
17:24, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
I'll leave the final word to Ringerfan23. I know it's hard to believe, but that's how the website describes itself. You have a point, nu metal can be heard here and there, but it doesn't seem like the album's definitive genre.-- Retrohead ( talk) 23:25, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Something sounds wrong with that section's heading. It seems somehow....inadequate. Something more specific, like style or composition or something like that. I'm in no way a reviewer, but I want to help, and when I returned from vacation, I saw that this album was being reviewed already, and I went straight on looking at what could be fixed. And this section was the first thing that really popped out at me. It makes me feel like it's of a lesser quality, which is not what GAs are about. In addition, we need to expand on the genre classification for that section. For example, just saying it's nu metal with a citation doesn't mean that makes for good quality. End of rant, please consider. DannyMusicEditor ( talk) 21:16, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Note: I'm closing the review. I believe that a fresh evaluation is needed because the article was significantly expanded since this review started. It went from 70k bytes of information to over a 100k as of this day. While it is broad in its coverage and neutral, it fails the stability criteria.-- Retrohead ( talk) 21:17, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Is this really "genre warring"? Here's a test: "Chinese Deomocracy is a <———> album." Can we say: "Chinese Deomocracy is a nu metal album."? Can we say: "Chinese Deomocracy is a hard rock, electronic rock, industrial rock, nu metal album."? How does that compare to "Chinese Deomocracy is a hard rock album."? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Calvin999 ( talk · contribs) 14:30, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello. I'm Calvin999, and I am reviewing this Good Article nomination. —
Calvin999
Pass by comments: The charts need to be by alphabetical order per MOS:CHARTS. — IB [ Poke ] 15:40, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
@ Calvin999: any update to this? SST flyer 15:14, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
Some article wide points:
More specifically:
References:
I think this needs to go through a peer review really. It's not the job of a GAN reviewer to suggest whole sentences and paragraphs for re-writing and in turn providing re-writes, and that is what I feel like needs doing. It all feels a bit jumbled and messy. That's the problem with this much detail. If it's not done right it's hard to read and people lose interest. I'm asking for a second opinion. — Calvin999 18:23, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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I believe the limit is 10; I count 11. One should be chosen to be removed and just mentioned in prose instead. dannymusiceditor oops 03:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the following images from the article; they are oversized and don't illustrate anything about the album or it's making and thus don't help the reader's understanding of the article.
{{multiple image |total_width = 900 | align = center | footer = bassist [[Tommy Stinson]], keyboardist [[Chris Pitman]], keyboardist [[Dizzy Reed]], lead guitarist [[Robin Finck]], drummer [[Josh Freese]] and vocalist [[Axl Rose]] (along with rhythm guitarist [[Paul Tobias]], not pictured) were the first lineup of the band to start production on the album. | width1 = 353 | height1 = 666 | image1 = Download Feastival 2006 -Stinson (cropped).jpg | width2 = 224 | height2 = 349 | image2 = Guns N' Roses (48) (cropped).JPG | width3 = 572 | height3 = 800 | image3 = Dizzy_reed.jpg | width4 = 430 | height4 = 748 | image4 = Download Feastival 2006 -1 (cropped).jpg | width5 = 1042 | height5 = 1650 | image5 = The Vandals 2011-12-18 06 (cropped).JPG | width6 = 220 | height6 = 300 | image6 = AxlRose_cropped.jpg }}
The second set contains images that might be useful as singles or in a gallery; I probably should re-read WP:MOSIMAGES as it's been a while, but I'm sure that mentions image sizes. Baffle gab1978 02:26, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
{{multiple image |total_width = 900 | align = center | footer = Lead guitarist [[Buckethead]], rhythm guitarist [[Richard Fortus]], drummer [[Bryan "Brain" Mantia]], drummer [[Frank Ferrer]] and lead guitarist [[Ron "Bumblefoot" Thal]] all joined the band at various points during production and worked on the album | width1 = 353 | height1 = 666 | image1 = Bucketheadgnr.jpg | width2 = 224 | height2 = 349 | image2 =Richard Fortus 2013.jpg | width3 = 572 | height3 = 800 | image3 = Primus copenhagen 1998 (cropped).jpg | width4 = 430 | height4 = 748 | image4 = Guns n´Roses Palacio de los Deportes 30-11-2016 (31366316670) (cropped).jpg | width5 = 1042 | height5 = 1650 | image5 = Ron Thal 2013.jpg }}
Cheers, Baffle gab1978 02:14, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
As you might have noticed, I've been doing some copyediting on this article. I'm not a GnR fan and knew nothing of the history of the album, and it's been interesting learning about it. Two main thoughts:
I may make these changes myself if I continue to read about the history of the album, but there's no guarantee of that happening... Popcornduff ( talk) 10:02, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
OK, I've restructured it. I think it's an improvement, more or less, but still needs lots of work to make it cohesive and flow well, and there are still lots of tags where things need citations or clarification. Still lots more work to do. Popcornduff ( talk) 13:25, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
Additionally, in the "Style and composition" section, there are quite a few quotes where third parties describe the album as it sounded while it was in development. These should be moved to the recording section. The "Style and composition" section should only describe the final album.
I also notice the article mentions a few leaks, but doesn't go into detail. More detail is needed about these. Popcornduff ( talk) 13:30, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
Another thought: we should really have a paragraph, no more than two or three sentences, establishing the background leading up to the album - explaining that they were a hugely successful band with the previous lineup. This sets the stage for the next stuff. See Songs from the Black Hole for an example. Popcornduff ( talk) 18:21, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Ritchie333 ( talk · contribs) 10:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Crikey, has it been ten years already since this was released? It was a standing joke at one point that it would never happen - where does the time go? I do confess I am not a particularly big fan of Guns 'n' Roses, and my main interest in them recently has been watching video clips of Axl Rose stopping the show and heckling some idiot as I think they're funny.
Anyway, I'm happy to review this. I see a lot of work has gone into it recently, and I suspect there's a campaign to get this to FA at some point, which is no bad thing. I'll have a proper re-read of the article now and check the sources, and come back with detailed comments hopefully later today. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
* "In the mid-1990s, amid creative and personal differences...." - for context, it would help explain who these people are (ie: founding members or people playing on the last studio release)
* "it was delayed and completely re-recorded in 2000" - but it wasn't released until eight years later, so recording could have only restarted in 2000
What makes tsort.info a reliable source?:
What makes www.heretodaygonetohell.com a reliable source?
"however, bassist Duff McKagan said the band "was so stoned at that point that nothing got finished"" - the Time Off citation does not seem to work, so I cannot verify this quotation.
"Guitarist Slash criticized singer Axl Rose for running the band "like a dictatorship"" - the source says he said it seemed like a dictatorship, which is not quite so strong.
"Multiple musicians were auditioned, including guitarist Zakk Wylde, and drummers Dave Abbruzzese and Michael Bland." - do we need four citations to cite one sentence?:
What makes audiohead.net a reliable source?
What makes providermodule.com a reliable source?
"At the recommendation of Freese, former Replacements bassist Tommy Stinson joined in early 1998,[30] followed by second keyboardist and multi-instrumentalist Chris Pitman" - according to the Blabbermouth source, Pitman was already in the band when Stinson joined.
"By the end of 1998...." - from here to the end of the paragraph is unsourced.
"Early in the recording process, the band was reported" - by whom?
"Early in the recording process, the band was reported to have 60 songs in development." - the source given doesn't seem to verify this; I can see a reference to "60 guitars" but not 60 songs
"In February 1997, electronic producer Moby entered talks to produce" - I'm confused by this. Who was Moby talking to, did he actually produce anything, or was this just an idea thrown around? This needs more context.
"I think the record had turned into a real labor. He was stuck and didn’t know how to proceed, so he was avoiding it." - the Daily Mail is banned on Wikipedia where prose relating to living people are concerned. This source is used for several paragraphs in this section and needs to be replaced. Mick Wall is also known for being a controversial journalist whose opinion is not particularly reliable enough for a GA (and would be tossed out at a Featured Article review).
What makes Allstarmag.com a reliable source?
"I came in, to start, making sounds for Robin Finck...." - this quotation is overly long and needs to be trimmed or paraphrased
"By this time Guns N' Roses had recorded over 30 songs" ... "The sessions produced 38 recorded songs" - this needs condensing, it's either "over 30" or "38" but having both together clashes.
"In late November 1999, Rose played several tracks..." - the rest of this paragraph is unsourced :
"Rose said in 1999 that the band had recorded enough material for a double album" - the source says "I wouldn't say [emphasis mine] it's like, you know, that we recorded a double album, or that we have all of our scraps to be the second one."
What makes metalunderground.com a reliable source?
What makes htgth.com a reliable source?
What makes gnrevolution.com a reliable source?
What makes alternativenation.net a reliable source?
"Commentators suggested the release" - if this is the opinion of Rolling Stone, just say that:
The link criteria says "readers will expect this type of media in the article". I really don't think that can be justified in this instance
"Shortly afterwards, Josh Freese left to join...." - why do you need five citations to cite one sentence?
"very digital sounding, there wasn’t a lot of air moving, they were electronic sounding" - the source given does not appear to have this quotation.
"Mantia had the parts transcribed, then played them from a teleprompter before trying the songs again in his style" - the source given does not mention a teleprompter
"In the early 2000s, composers Marco Beltrami and Paul Buckmaster...." - the source given doesn't seem to have this date
"I met with Axl and he played me these songs..." - the quotation here is over-long, can it be trimmed?
"These fucking people are getting paid shitloads of money..." - as above
What makes www.undercover.com.au a reliable source?
"What really happened was the record company stood back and left...." - this quotation is far too long and is a borderline copyvio, can it be paraphrased?:
The quotation from the statement about Buckethead needs to be trimmed
"By 2005, Geffen had removed Chinese Democracy from its release schedule and withdrawn funding, stating:" - the statement is from 2004, not 2005
"Around that time, manager Merck Mercuriadis said the album was close to complete" - the source doesn't seem to say this
What makes bravewords.com a reliable source?
What makes thespaghettiincident.com a reliable source? :
What makes MetalFan.ro a reliable source?
What makes rockmymonkey.com a reliable source?
"and conductor Suzy Katayama also recorded parts" - there is a [when] tag at the end of this sentence
"....and Tim Palmer" - why do you need five citations to verify this?
discogs.com is not directly a reliable source - cite the original works it refers to using (Media notes).
{{
cite AV media notes}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
"followed by "Street of Dreams" in March 2009. - this sentence is unsourced
This is personal preference, but for sections of album articles describing the songs (eg: Led Zeppelin IV, The Beatles (album)), I've preferred putting the prose together without sub-headings for each song, except to split into sides of an LP (which doesn't really apply here).
What makes hem.passangen.se a reliable source?
What makes metalinjection.net a reliable source?
"one shooter's preference for the Guns song Brownstone to no avail" - the second citation here appears to be to a forum post (same source re-used later on in this section)
::::Fixed.
"The song features the lyrics “What this means to me...." - why is this important to mention here?
What makes WickedInfo.com a reliable source?
There was a citation to a YouTube video here which looks like a copyright violation, I've removed it
What makes www.a-4-d.com a reliable source?
{{
cite AV media notes}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help) template.The song "Madagascar" is cited to a scan of the CD inlay. This is a copyright violation, use a proper source.
"The lyrics feature Rose singing "So if she’s somewhere near me / I hope to God she hears me"" - why is this important to mention here? Same problem with the next song
In general, I think the songs suffer from too much opinion and not enough of explaining the background, style or any other significant facts about them. See the two album GAs I referred to at the top of this section.
What makes findery.com a reliable source?
What makes axelrosefaclube.com a reliable source?
What makes gnrontour.com a reliable source?
The paragraph starting "Rose stated in December 2008 that two alternate booklets were pending release, saying" has a quotation that is too long and needs to be trimmed. Also the last sentence in this paragraph is unsourced.
*
File:Chinese Democracy Promo Box2.jpg seems to have several bits of copyrighted works in it.
I'm taking a break to go and look at some other things; I'll pick up the rest of the review tomorrow. I have to say I'm not feeling inclined to pass it at this stage as there are serious problems with the referencing. You've done a good job with copyediting the prose; I can't find too much to complain about from that angle, but that's only one facet of the GA criteria - you need to have facts presented with the appropriate balance in an article, and cited to reputable sources. In particular, fan websites are notorious for getting things wrong, and citations like the Daily Mail should be avoided like the plague. However, I think it's worth carrying on with the review just to list issues, so you've got a complete set of notes to work off for future. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:18, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
* What makes chartmasters.com a reliable source?
Just a quick update, I've looked through the whole article. I need to merge your comments with the original (and reply to several of them), which I'll do tomorrow when I'm feeling more awake :-/ .... then we'll have an idea of what work is left. I'm more confident now that the article can be improved to meet GA status than I was yesterday, so I think we're heading in the right direction. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 23:30, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Yup, I think we're all done here, so I'll pass the review now. Well done! Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 20:53, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 22:06, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Subject: The Guns N' Roses album, Chinese Democracy, /info/en/?search=Chinese_Democracy
Today I deleted the following sentences from the end of the second paragraph of the "Tom Zutaut joins" section. "However, the coop caused friction when Buckethead began using it to watch hardcore pornography, disturbing Rose. After one of Rose's dogs defecated in the coop, Buckethead insisted it not be cleaned up as he liked the smell. After three days, the smell had become overwhelming and the studio staff removed it, upsetting Buckethead.[31]"
Bryan "Brain" Mantia was the drummer for Guns N' Roses on the Chinese Democracy tour and is known as Buckethead's best friend and frequent collaborator. Please watch and listen to the first two minutes of this video. "Are THOSE Buckethead GNR Stories True? Brain sets the record straight!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtcljfmQGEw YouTube channel NatterNet is interviewing Brain, who disputes the derogatory statements from reference [31] about Buckethead which have been in this Wikipedia article for years. The statements in question are disturbing and paint an inaccurate picture of Buckethead.
Another reference in support of removing these exact quotes is given in the following video, also by YouTube channel NatterNet.
"Is THAT Buckethead Story Just GNR Lies?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1HszllMqNI
Please watch and listen to this video from about 2:28 through about 5:50.
-- Green Wiki Thing ( talk) 23:46, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Green Wiki Thing
Let's please reconsider leaving in Zutaut's disputed accusations against Buckethead. If we choose to leave them in, then the refutation could also be added for balance. In particular, Zutaut's claim that Buckethead used his "coop" area of the recording studio to watch hardcore pornography is passionately denied by Brain (that is, Bryan Kei "Brain" Mantia). Brain's interview is well sourced because it is available as an audio track and has also been transcribed here: [3]. The most pertinent excerpt from that interview would be these two lines:
The introduction to the interview is also useful here:
-- Green Wiki Thing ( talk) 17:38, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
Brain denied that Buckethead had acted disruptively.[better source needed]Another editor might still remove it. If you can find a better source from a more reputable website (like Rolling Stone or something) then that would be great. @ Ringerfan23:, who has done lots of work on this article, might have an opinion. Popcornfud ( talk) 17:53, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, Popcornfud and Ringerfan23 for your efforts to finally bring out the opposing side of Zutaut's accusations that, for years, have troubled those concerned about Buckethead. I understand that a major publication would make a superior reference, but such information is extremely rare, especially because Buckethead is not one to publicly defend himself. There exists a population that follows Buckethead and his collaborators such as Brain, but they are neither mainstream nor powerful. Thank you again. -- Green Wiki Thing ( talk) 18:03, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
The lead of this article has really ballooned since I last looked at it. We don't need this extensive list of all the people who joined and left the band in the lead — it should be trimmed back to the more concise version. See MOS:LEADLENGTH for guidance on this. Popcornfud ( talk) 12:57, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
This article needs one. I'm really bad with tables on wiki [for real is there like a tutorial somewhere because I always mess them up], could someone help add one? RF23 ( talk) 06:56, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
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There is a request, submitted by RF23 ( talk), for an audio version of this article to be created. For further information, see WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia. The rationale behind the request is: "Long-gestating album with lots of coverage by high-selling artist.". |
The article history of Chinesse Democracy was created several years ago in attempt to control the constant flow of rumors and leaks while this album was in it's decades long recording process. I'm not sure how wise a move this was to begin with and now the two articles are basically redundant of each other. I propose all information be moved to this article -I'm pretty sure it is all here already-- and that article be redirected here where it should be and where it can easily be maintained.
http://www.fasterlouder.com.au/features/35134/Guns-N-Roses-Dizzy-Reed-Im-very-proud-of-Chinese-Democracy I call the big one bitey 22:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Reviewer: Retrohead ( talk · contribs) 17:24, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
I'll be glad to review the most expensive rock album in history that reached mythical proportions. Comments to follow soon.--
Retrohead (
talk)
17:24, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
I'll leave the final word to Ringerfan23. I know it's hard to believe, but that's how the website describes itself. You have a point, nu metal can be heard here and there, but it doesn't seem like the album's definitive genre.-- Retrohead ( talk) 23:25, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Something sounds wrong with that section's heading. It seems somehow....inadequate. Something more specific, like style or composition or something like that. I'm in no way a reviewer, but I want to help, and when I returned from vacation, I saw that this album was being reviewed already, and I went straight on looking at what could be fixed. And this section was the first thing that really popped out at me. It makes me feel like it's of a lesser quality, which is not what GAs are about. In addition, we need to expand on the genre classification for that section. For example, just saying it's nu metal with a citation doesn't mean that makes for good quality. End of rant, please consider. DannyMusicEditor ( talk) 21:16, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
Note: I'm closing the review. I believe that a fresh evaluation is needed because the article was significantly expanded since this review started. It went from 70k bytes of information to over a 100k as of this day. While it is broad in its coverage and neutral, it fails the stability criteria.-- Retrohead ( talk) 21:17, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Is this really "genre warring"? Here's a test: "Chinese Deomocracy is a <———> album." Can we say: "Chinese Deomocracy is a nu metal album."? Can we say: "Chinese Deomocracy is a hard rock, electronic rock, industrial rock, nu metal album."? How does that compare to "Chinese Deomocracy is a hard rock album."? Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Reviewer: Calvin999 ( talk · contribs) 14:30, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello. I'm Calvin999, and I am reviewing this Good Article nomination. —
Calvin999
Pass by comments: The charts need to be by alphabetical order per MOS:CHARTS. — IB [ Poke ] 15:40, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
@ Calvin999: any update to this? SST flyer 15:14, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
Some article wide points:
More specifically:
References:
I think this needs to go through a peer review really. It's not the job of a GAN reviewer to suggest whole sentences and paragraphs for re-writing and in turn providing re-writes, and that is what I feel like needs doing. It all feels a bit jumbled and messy. That's the problem with this much detail. If it's not done right it's hard to read and people lose interest. I'm asking for a second opinion. — Calvin999 18:23, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
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I believe the limit is 10; I count 11. One should be chosen to be removed and just mentioned in prose instead. dannymusiceditor oops 03:40, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the following images from the article; they are oversized and don't illustrate anything about the album or it's making and thus don't help the reader's understanding of the article.
{{multiple image |total_width = 900 | align = center | footer = bassist [[Tommy Stinson]], keyboardist [[Chris Pitman]], keyboardist [[Dizzy Reed]], lead guitarist [[Robin Finck]], drummer [[Josh Freese]] and vocalist [[Axl Rose]] (along with rhythm guitarist [[Paul Tobias]], not pictured) were the first lineup of the band to start production on the album. | width1 = 353 | height1 = 666 | image1 = Download Feastival 2006 -Stinson (cropped).jpg | width2 = 224 | height2 = 349 | image2 = Guns N' Roses (48) (cropped).JPG | width3 = 572 | height3 = 800 | image3 = Dizzy_reed.jpg | width4 = 430 | height4 = 748 | image4 = Download Feastival 2006 -1 (cropped).jpg | width5 = 1042 | height5 = 1650 | image5 = The Vandals 2011-12-18 06 (cropped).JPG | width6 = 220 | height6 = 300 | image6 = AxlRose_cropped.jpg }}
The second set contains images that might be useful as singles or in a gallery; I probably should re-read WP:MOSIMAGES as it's been a while, but I'm sure that mentions image sizes. Baffle gab1978 02:26, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
{{multiple image |total_width = 900 | align = center | footer = Lead guitarist [[Buckethead]], rhythm guitarist [[Richard Fortus]], drummer [[Bryan "Brain" Mantia]], drummer [[Frank Ferrer]] and lead guitarist [[Ron "Bumblefoot" Thal]] all joined the band at various points during production and worked on the album | width1 = 353 | height1 = 666 | image1 = Bucketheadgnr.jpg | width2 = 224 | height2 = 349 | image2 =Richard Fortus 2013.jpg | width3 = 572 | height3 = 800 | image3 = Primus copenhagen 1998 (cropped).jpg | width4 = 430 | height4 = 748 | image4 = Guns n´Roses Palacio de los Deportes 30-11-2016 (31366316670) (cropped).jpg | width5 = 1042 | height5 = 1650 | image5 = Ron Thal 2013.jpg }}
Cheers, Baffle gab1978 02:14, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
As you might have noticed, I've been doing some copyediting on this article. I'm not a GnR fan and knew nothing of the history of the album, and it's been interesting learning about it. Two main thoughts:
I may make these changes myself if I continue to read about the history of the album, but there's no guarantee of that happening... Popcornduff ( talk) 10:02, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
OK, I've restructured it. I think it's an improvement, more or less, but still needs lots of work to make it cohesive and flow well, and there are still lots of tags where things need citations or clarification. Still lots more work to do. Popcornduff ( talk) 13:25, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
Additionally, in the "Style and composition" section, there are quite a few quotes where third parties describe the album as it sounded while it was in development. These should be moved to the recording section. The "Style and composition" section should only describe the final album.
I also notice the article mentions a few leaks, but doesn't go into detail. More detail is needed about these. Popcornduff ( talk) 13:30, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
Another thought: we should really have a paragraph, no more than two or three sentences, establishing the background leading up to the album - explaining that they were a hugely successful band with the previous lineup. This sets the stage for the next stuff. See Songs from the Black Hole for an example. Popcornduff ( talk) 18:21, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
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Reviewer: Ritchie333 ( talk · contribs) 10:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Crikey, has it been ten years already since this was released? It was a standing joke at one point that it would never happen - where does the time go? I do confess I am not a particularly big fan of Guns 'n' Roses, and my main interest in them recently has been watching video clips of Axl Rose stopping the show and heckling some idiot as I think they're funny.
Anyway, I'm happy to review this. I see a lot of work has gone into it recently, and I suspect there's a campaign to get this to FA at some point, which is no bad thing. I'll have a proper re-read of the article now and check the sources, and come back with detailed comments hopefully later today. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
* "In the mid-1990s, amid creative and personal differences...." - for context, it would help explain who these people are (ie: founding members or people playing on the last studio release)
* "it was delayed and completely re-recorded in 2000" - but it wasn't released until eight years later, so recording could have only restarted in 2000
What makes tsort.info a reliable source?:
What makes www.heretodaygonetohell.com a reliable source?
"however, bassist Duff McKagan said the band "was so stoned at that point that nothing got finished"" - the Time Off citation does not seem to work, so I cannot verify this quotation.
"Guitarist Slash criticized singer Axl Rose for running the band "like a dictatorship"" - the source says he said it seemed like a dictatorship, which is not quite so strong.
"Multiple musicians were auditioned, including guitarist Zakk Wylde, and drummers Dave Abbruzzese and Michael Bland." - do we need four citations to cite one sentence?:
What makes audiohead.net a reliable source?
What makes providermodule.com a reliable source?
"At the recommendation of Freese, former Replacements bassist Tommy Stinson joined in early 1998,[30] followed by second keyboardist and multi-instrumentalist Chris Pitman" - according to the Blabbermouth source, Pitman was already in the band when Stinson joined.
"By the end of 1998...." - from here to the end of the paragraph is unsourced.
"Early in the recording process, the band was reported" - by whom?
"Early in the recording process, the band was reported to have 60 songs in development." - the source given doesn't seem to verify this; I can see a reference to "60 guitars" but not 60 songs
"In February 1997, electronic producer Moby entered talks to produce" - I'm confused by this. Who was Moby talking to, did he actually produce anything, or was this just an idea thrown around? This needs more context.
"I think the record had turned into a real labor. He was stuck and didn’t know how to proceed, so he was avoiding it." - the Daily Mail is banned on Wikipedia where prose relating to living people are concerned. This source is used for several paragraphs in this section and needs to be replaced. Mick Wall is also known for being a controversial journalist whose opinion is not particularly reliable enough for a GA (and would be tossed out at a Featured Article review).
What makes Allstarmag.com a reliable source?
"I came in, to start, making sounds for Robin Finck...." - this quotation is overly long and needs to be trimmed or paraphrased
"By this time Guns N' Roses had recorded over 30 songs" ... "The sessions produced 38 recorded songs" - this needs condensing, it's either "over 30" or "38" but having both together clashes.
"In late November 1999, Rose played several tracks..." - the rest of this paragraph is unsourced :
"Rose said in 1999 that the band had recorded enough material for a double album" - the source says "I wouldn't say [emphasis mine] it's like, you know, that we recorded a double album, or that we have all of our scraps to be the second one."
What makes metalunderground.com a reliable source?
What makes htgth.com a reliable source?
What makes gnrevolution.com a reliable source?
What makes alternativenation.net a reliable source?
"Commentators suggested the release" - if this is the opinion of Rolling Stone, just say that:
The link criteria says "readers will expect this type of media in the article". I really don't think that can be justified in this instance
"Shortly afterwards, Josh Freese left to join...." - why do you need five citations to cite one sentence?
"very digital sounding, there wasn’t a lot of air moving, they were electronic sounding" - the source given does not appear to have this quotation.
"Mantia had the parts transcribed, then played them from a teleprompter before trying the songs again in his style" - the source given does not mention a teleprompter
"In the early 2000s, composers Marco Beltrami and Paul Buckmaster...." - the source given doesn't seem to have this date
"I met with Axl and he played me these songs..." - the quotation here is over-long, can it be trimmed?
"These fucking people are getting paid shitloads of money..." - as above
What makes www.undercover.com.au a reliable source?
"What really happened was the record company stood back and left...." - this quotation is far too long and is a borderline copyvio, can it be paraphrased?:
The quotation from the statement about Buckethead needs to be trimmed
"By 2005, Geffen had removed Chinese Democracy from its release schedule and withdrawn funding, stating:" - the statement is from 2004, not 2005
"Around that time, manager Merck Mercuriadis said the album was close to complete" - the source doesn't seem to say this
What makes bravewords.com a reliable source?
What makes thespaghettiincident.com a reliable source? :
What makes MetalFan.ro a reliable source?
What makes rockmymonkey.com a reliable source?
"and conductor Suzy Katayama also recorded parts" - there is a [when] tag at the end of this sentence
"....and Tim Palmer" - why do you need five citations to verify this?
discogs.com is not directly a reliable source - cite the original works it refers to using (Media notes).
{{
cite AV media notes}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
"followed by "Street of Dreams" in March 2009. - this sentence is unsourced
This is personal preference, but for sections of album articles describing the songs (eg: Led Zeppelin IV, The Beatles (album)), I've preferred putting the prose together without sub-headings for each song, except to split into sides of an LP (which doesn't really apply here).
What makes hem.passangen.se a reliable source?
What makes metalinjection.net a reliable source?
"one shooter's preference for the Guns song Brownstone to no avail" - the second citation here appears to be to a forum post (same source re-used later on in this section)
::::Fixed.
"The song features the lyrics “What this means to me...." - why is this important to mention here?
What makes WickedInfo.com a reliable source?
There was a citation to a YouTube video here which looks like a copyright violation, I've removed it
What makes www.a-4-d.com a reliable source?
{{
cite AV media notes}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help) template.The song "Madagascar" is cited to a scan of the CD inlay. This is a copyright violation, use a proper source.
"The lyrics feature Rose singing "So if she’s somewhere near me / I hope to God she hears me"" - why is this important to mention here? Same problem with the next song
In general, I think the songs suffer from too much opinion and not enough of explaining the background, style or any other significant facts about them. See the two album GAs I referred to at the top of this section.
What makes findery.com a reliable source?
What makes axelrosefaclube.com a reliable source?
What makes gnrontour.com a reliable source?
The paragraph starting "Rose stated in December 2008 that two alternate booklets were pending release, saying" has a quotation that is too long and needs to be trimmed. Also the last sentence in this paragraph is unsourced.
*
File:Chinese Democracy Promo Box2.jpg seems to have several bits of copyrighted works in it.
I'm taking a break to go and look at some other things; I'll pick up the rest of the review tomorrow. I have to say I'm not feeling inclined to pass it at this stage as there are serious problems with the referencing. You've done a good job with copyediting the prose; I can't find too much to complain about from that angle, but that's only one facet of the GA criteria - you need to have facts presented with the appropriate balance in an article, and cited to reputable sources. In particular, fan websites are notorious for getting things wrong, and citations like the Daily Mail should be avoided like the plague. However, I think it's worth carrying on with the review just to list issues, so you've got a complete set of notes to work off for future. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:18, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
* What makes chartmasters.com a reliable source?
Just a quick update, I've looked through the whole article. I need to merge your comments with the original (and reply to several of them), which I'll do tomorrow when I'm feeling more awake :-/ .... then we'll have an idea of what work is left. I'm more confident now that the article can be improved to meet GA status than I was yesterday, so I think we're heading in the right direction. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 23:30, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Yup, I think we're all done here, so I'll pass the review now. Well done! Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 20:53, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 22:06, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
Subject: The Guns N' Roses album, Chinese Democracy, /info/en/?search=Chinese_Democracy
Today I deleted the following sentences from the end of the second paragraph of the "Tom Zutaut joins" section. "However, the coop caused friction when Buckethead began using it to watch hardcore pornography, disturbing Rose. After one of Rose's dogs defecated in the coop, Buckethead insisted it not be cleaned up as he liked the smell. After three days, the smell had become overwhelming and the studio staff removed it, upsetting Buckethead.[31]"
Bryan "Brain" Mantia was the drummer for Guns N' Roses on the Chinese Democracy tour and is known as Buckethead's best friend and frequent collaborator. Please watch and listen to the first two minutes of this video. "Are THOSE Buckethead GNR Stories True? Brain sets the record straight!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtcljfmQGEw YouTube channel NatterNet is interviewing Brain, who disputes the derogatory statements from reference [31] about Buckethead which have been in this Wikipedia article for years. The statements in question are disturbing and paint an inaccurate picture of Buckethead.
Another reference in support of removing these exact quotes is given in the following video, also by YouTube channel NatterNet.
"Is THAT Buckethead Story Just GNR Lies?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1HszllMqNI
Please watch and listen to this video from about 2:28 through about 5:50.
-- Green Wiki Thing ( talk) 23:46, 7 September 2020 (UTC)Green Wiki Thing
Let's please reconsider leaving in Zutaut's disputed accusations against Buckethead. If we choose to leave them in, then the refutation could also be added for balance. In particular, Zutaut's claim that Buckethead used his "coop" area of the recording studio to watch hardcore pornography is passionately denied by Brain (that is, Bryan Kei "Brain" Mantia). Brain's interview is well sourced because it is available as an audio track and has also been transcribed here: [3]. The most pertinent excerpt from that interview would be these two lines:
The introduction to the interview is also useful here:
-- Green Wiki Thing ( talk) 17:38, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
Brain denied that Buckethead had acted disruptively.[better source needed]Another editor might still remove it. If you can find a better source from a more reputable website (like Rolling Stone or something) then that would be great. @ Ringerfan23:, who has done lots of work on this article, might have an opinion. Popcornfud ( talk) 17:53, 10 September 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, Popcornfud and Ringerfan23 for your efforts to finally bring out the opposing side of Zutaut's accusations that, for years, have troubled those concerned about Buckethead. I understand that a major publication would make a superior reference, but such information is extremely rare, especially because Buckethead is not one to publicly defend himself. There exists a population that follows Buckethead and his collaborators such as Brain, but they are neither mainstream nor powerful. Thank you again. -- Green Wiki Thing ( talk) 18:03, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
The lead of this article has really ballooned since I last looked at it. We don't need this extensive list of all the people who joined and left the band in the lead — it should be trimmed back to the more concise version. See MOS:LEADLENGTH for guidance on this. Popcornfud ( talk) 12:57, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
This article needs one. I'm really bad with tables on wiki [for real is there like a tutorial somewhere because I always mess them up], could someone help add one? RF23 ( talk) 06:56, 3 June 2024 (UTC)