This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The new section on 1944 planning completely misrepresents the prepartions and goals of the Chindits in 1944. This is an immensely complicated subject and the plans changed repeatedly right up to the launch of the operations. Putting a small selection of directives on the page and suggesting that they represent "the plan" for 1944 is extremely misleading. - anon (December 2 2005) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22:28, 2 December 2005 ( talk • contribs) 63.133.154.10.
For most of this article sources are not really needed as the "facts" are widely available. However there are a number of statements about individules which are a POV and ought to have a source to justify who said them, or are about operational details not widely available and so are not generally known, here is an inital list which if they can not be sourced ought to be removed:
The trouble is that sources which are not detailed tend to give what happend not what might have happend, so what is the detailed source for this?
This is not the resons Slim gives in Defeat into Vicory Page 265-6.
This last one is not a POV but is contriversial so it ought to be footnoted. -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Burma 1942-1945, R. Callahan, Davis-Poynter 1978. The remainder of the para. is POV.
Summarised in Allen, Burma: The longest War from D. Tulloch (Wingate's Chief of Staff) in Wingate in Peace and War. Again, the rest of the para. is POV.
HLGallon 22:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Do you have page numbers for these as it would be better to footnote them properly? -- Philip Baird Shearer 22:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Callahan, p. 101
Allen, pp. 348-351
HLGallon 23:09, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Not sure if Wingate staff officers lacked the necessary comabt experiance. Because Slim complains in "Defeat into Victory" on page 216-217 that Windgate got the whole of the 70th division as it was not allocated to the 14th Army at the time W. aquired it and goes on to say that Windgate had an "elaborate staff". Surly although Slim does not say so, many of the staff must have come from the battle hardened and jungle warfare trained 70th. Philip Baird Shearer
HLGallon 06:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Fair point. I am very happy to go with Masters or who ever, but the comments like these should be sourced. I'll add the two you (HLGallon) have provided please see that I have got them correct. --
Philip Baird Shearer
00:23, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Because of the size of the article I think it is time to consider moving the Order of Battle to its own page. I would favour Order of Battle of the Chindits rather than Chindits' Order of Battle or Chindits' order of battle or order of battle of the Chindits. I don't like the apostrophe in the name and the name is similar to Order of Battle of the Waterloo Campaign. But I am open to suggestions on the name and if it should be done. -- Philip Baird Shearer 01:03, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Yesterday I replaced the section on 1944 plans with a simplified version that explains the 1944 planning process in a very direct way. A short, to the point and non-controversial version is better in my opinion than a long misleading one. Depending on Slim's account and highlighting the version of "orders" he gives in his book is not the best approach. Slim's book also plays fast-and-loose with the chronology of his discussions with Wingate. I also strongly disagree with the over-emphesis of the SEAC conference. Some sources, rather than deal with the details of planning simply develop a narrative of conferences which is misleading.
This issue of planning is historically very important to get right because it plays heavily into arguments over events after the death of Wingate. What can be said to have been planned in 1944 was the entry of the Chindits into the strongholds in north burma and the advance of 16th brigade overland. Little in the way of firm plans beyond that existed or were followed.
Full explaination of the planning process would be very long. It would involve tracing events from August until March. It would require dealing with a large number of sources and seperating out decisions that matter from those that dont. Its not something to be done in a few hours. For those reasons, I advocate for a short direct version that explains the high level details of the operation but that does not depend on Slim's directive issued a month before the main operation was even launched. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.188.117.11 ( talk • contribs) 18:42, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
the french formed the C.L.I. ( FEFEO) commandos after the chindits [1]. it is worth mentioning in the article. Cliché Online ( talk) 10:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't think that the two new section ("Medical services and sanitation" and "Discipline") introduced by This edit is supported by the source "Harrison , M., Medicine and victory: British military medicine in the Second World War" which is available in preview form with Google books seep pages 202-213 (not all of the pages are available but I think there are enough to give an reasonable overviews from the online cited source).
To give some examples. the first sentence "Wingate was later severely criticized for a disregardful attitude to medical services" well yes the source contain that but it says this is what others wrote. While not defending his behaviour the sources is not as condemning as some of the sources it quotes (see page 202). A much better approach to this issue is presented on page 212,213 where the author compares and contrasts Wingate and Slim's approach. It is generally recognised that Slim had a very progressive (and correct) approach to preventative medicine to reduce battle field casualties from disease. -- But as has been mentioned in other sources used in this article Slim had to order his offices to enforce the taking of quinine by their soldiers (see Slim: Relations with troops), so Windgate's attitude to the taking of preventative measures was not that unusual.
Another problem with this section is it fails to explain the difference between the first and second expedition eg "As there were no detailed stretcher bearers in the columns and often no means to evacuate sick or wounded men the alternative to marching was often being left behind." While this may have been true in the first expedition it was not true on the second one. Further because on the first expedition they had no means of air extraction, there was no means of evacuating sick or wounded men, so the alternative to marching or being left behind. The jungle terrain in Burma is some of the most difficult in the world, it would have been impossible for the fitter men to have carried their comrades for far.
So having read the source and looked at that section, I think that although the current wording is supported by the source, it does not present a fair description of the content of the source.
The second section is also not supported by the source and does not present a fair description of the content of the sources. The point is made in the source that some of the men who were sent to him were old (for soldiers), who had already been diagnosed as unfit for jungle warfare, so it suited Windgate and those men they they reported sick during training, as he had no use for them in the campaigns he was planning and they did not want to go. The paragraph does not read that way instead it reads that Windgate forced them to stay and flogged them if they did not perform.
The flogging sentence is very typical of the whole section what the source does is quote another source "Factors influencing Morale Unfavourably. ... Public Flogging of B.O.R.s. Greatly resented. Nothing but an exhibition of slavery. All agreed that the guilty men deserved their punishment, but the punishment should not have been implemented publicly in front of natives and coloured troops." But the source says in footnote "142 The only reference to corporal punishment anywhere in any sources available to the editor.".
So the source clearly does not support the statement "In violation of military law Wingate had men flogged during the first Chindit operation." Because
I think both sections should be removed until such time that they are rewritten to present a fair and accurate summary of the content of the sources. -- PBS ( talk) 13:51, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
moved here as proposed above:
"Medical services and sanitation" and "Discipline"
|
---|
>===Medical services and sanitation=== Wingate was later severely criticized for a disregardful attitude to medical services - even basic sanitary precautions such as latrines - which came to characterize much of the force. The resultant lack of hygiene contributed to many cases of disease and some medical officers concluded that he was unsuited for command. Slim pointed to the fallibility of Wingate's eccentric mind-over-matter beliefs by recalling that the second Chindit operation was delayed after he contracted typhoid by drinking water out of a flower vase and nearly died. Wingate distrusted doctors and thought that British troops tended to go sick unnecessarily, he took a minimum of medical staff on operations and many troops were afraid to report sick for fear of being accused of "scrounging." As there were no detailed stretcher bearers in the columns and often no means to evacuate sick or wounded men the alternative to marching was often being left behind.(Harrison , M., Medicine and victory: British military medicine in the Second World War) >===Discipline=== The initial batches of troops sent for the special force aroused Wingate's prejudices about malingering. They were often unenthusiastic older men who were beset by chronic maladies and many removed themselves to medical stations shortly after training began. In violation of military law Wingate had men flogged during the first Chindit operation.( A Record of Heedless Valor) }} |
-- PBS ( talk) 12:30, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Today I removed a section on confusion to whom Windgate reported. Slim in "Defeat into Victory" on page 216 write "His force finished its training in India, and was now placed under my commad. I called Windgate to clear up several matters...". Slim goes on to say that Windgate announced that he felt at liberty to contact Slim's superiors directly if he did not agree with Slim to which Slim pushed a message pad over his desk to Windgate to call his bluff. -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:44, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
He was not the only one in that campaign who was a little caustic, Vinegar Joe was known to be difficult. But AFAICT Windgate reported to the 14th Army and that meant Slim. He may have chosen to talk to Slim's superiors, but that does not mean that the chain of command was not clear cut. Which in the case of Vinegar Joe was not true because he did have multiple commands. If you have a source which repudiates this and in fact Windgate did officially report to more than one commander during Operation Thursday, then please provide the source and integrate it into the text. -- Philip Baird Shearer 00:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Why do you think that Slim is a questionable source and why is it not definitive? Can you produce another author to back up you assertion that Slim is a "questionable source that is not by any means definitive"? Do you have a source other than Wingate which confirms Wingate's view that his chain of command was not through Slim? Page 220 of D into V, Slim writes "[Windgate] made one last attempt to make me change by saying that he would not accept the order I had drafted. I gave him an unsigend copy of the draft, told hem to take it away, sleep on it that night and come back at ten the next morning, when I would give the same order signed. I told him I had never had a subordinate officer refuse an order, but if one did, I knew what to do. General Giffard happened to be visiting my headquaters and I asked him to be in my office the next day when Wingate came." Slim says that next morning Wingate accepted the order without comment. -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Lundin, Walter B. (2002) Slim's Generalship in the 1944 India-Burma Campaign ( Abstract) confirms that Windgate reported to Slim. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 20:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Historians and eye-witness accounts who show that Slim is a questionable source and not definitive include:
Air Marshal Sir John Baldwin (commander 3rd Tactical Air Force in Burma) General Tulloch (Chindit commander and close associate of Wingate) Brigadier Calvert (ditto) Brigadier Fergusson (ditto) Lord Mountbatten General Tanaka (Japanese general who opposed the Chindits whose testimony contradicts Slim's) General Mutagachi (ditto) Otto Heilbrunn (German military historian) Colonel Barker (military historian) Liddel Hart (ditto) Arthur Bailey (ditto) John Grover (GOC 2nd Division) Colonel Barton (military historian) Brigadier Peter Mead (ex-Chindit, co-author of Orde Wingate And The Historians which challenged the official history and the distortion, denials and misrepresentation Wingate's suffered in the history books) Sir Robert Thompson (RAF Liason officer with the Chindits & later counter-insurgency expert in Malaya and Vietnam; co-author of Orde Wingate And The Historians) Colonel Cane MC Brigadier Walter Scott (ex-Chindit) Louis Allen (historian & author of Burma, The Longest War) David Rooney (historian & author of Wingate And The Chindits: Redressing The Balance)
All of these commentators campaigned or wrote books against the image of Wingate presented by Slim and other figures such as Kirby. At the very least their testimony needs to be looked at. When Wingate died, Slim said of him:
"The number of men of our race in this war who are really irreplaceable can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Wingate is one of them. The force he built is his own; no-one else could have produced it. He designed it, he raised it, he trained it, he led it, inspired it and finally placed it where the meant to place it - in the enemy's vitals.
In all this he would have been irreplaceable, but he has accomplished his greatest work. He has forged the weapon, others may now wield it. From the force itself come his successors, imbued with his will and his vision.
We are proud to have WIngate's force as part of the Fourteenth Army. The men he led, his Chindits, know that the finest tribute they can pay to the great leader is to complete his work and to perpetuate in themselves his courage and his determination to strike to the utmost in their country's cause."
Why he changed his mind is dealt with in David Rooney's book. Pegasuswhiterose ( talk) 23:06, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Is it worth merging the article Order of Battle of the Chindits with this one? It seems disjointed to have a section header with just a link to an article of lists. Or would a table here or drop down work better. Manytexts ( talk) 02:52, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
This is a woefully inadequate article, which seems solely to peddle the revisionist line of Slim et al against Wingate. Detail of what LRP involved, detail of the campaigns themselves, accounts of the pro-Wingate campaign's historical assessment in response to the slur campaign since the war etc are all massively lacking. Moreover, some of it is just downright false and potentially slanderous. For instance, Wingate did not give orders on any Chindit campaign to leave the wounded behind. In the first campaign some wounded soldiers who could not be saved had to be abandoned, but when they could not be saved. Wingate never gave a blanket order that the wounded should be deserted (how could he? This was the British Army, for God's sake!. No proper army in the world would give such an order) and, as officer and historian Sir Roger Thompson made clear in his study of the campaigns, Make For The Hills (1989), Wingate specifically organised light aircraft to fly out his wounded.
Wingate was an austere but humane commander who inspired fierce loyalty in his troops. He also led from the front, which is more than can be said for many of detractors. At the very least this article should give both sides of the story about him, not just trade shallowly on the negative campaign against him.
Pegasuswhiterose ( talk) 08:22, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
He was second-in-command under Wingate, and was passed over in favour of Lentaigne. From what i have read, he played an important role in integrating the 70th Division into Wingate's force. Some mention should be made of him, and why he was not placed in full command on Wingate's death. EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 18:26, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The new section on 1944 planning completely misrepresents the prepartions and goals of the Chindits in 1944. This is an immensely complicated subject and the plans changed repeatedly right up to the launch of the operations. Putting a small selection of directives on the page and suggesting that they represent "the plan" for 1944 is extremely misleading. - anon (December 2 2005) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22:28, 2 December 2005 ( talk • contribs) 63.133.154.10.
For most of this article sources are not really needed as the "facts" are widely available. However there are a number of statements about individules which are a POV and ought to have a source to justify who said them, or are about operational details not widely available and so are not generally known, here is an inital list which if they can not be sourced ought to be removed:
The trouble is that sources which are not detailed tend to give what happend not what might have happend, so what is the detailed source for this?
This is not the resons Slim gives in Defeat into Vicory Page 265-6.
This last one is not a POV but is contriversial so it ought to be footnoted. -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Burma 1942-1945, R. Callahan, Davis-Poynter 1978. The remainder of the para. is POV.
Summarised in Allen, Burma: The longest War from D. Tulloch (Wingate's Chief of Staff) in Wingate in Peace and War. Again, the rest of the para. is POV.
HLGallon 22:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Do you have page numbers for these as it would be better to footnote them properly? -- Philip Baird Shearer 22:17, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Callahan, p. 101
Allen, pp. 348-351
HLGallon 23:09, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Not sure if Wingate staff officers lacked the necessary comabt experiance. Because Slim complains in "Defeat into Victory" on page 216-217 that Windgate got the whole of the 70th division as it was not allocated to the 14th Army at the time W. aquired it and goes on to say that Windgate had an "elaborate staff". Surly although Slim does not say so, many of the staff must have come from the battle hardened and jungle warfare trained 70th. Philip Baird Shearer
HLGallon 06:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Fair point. I am very happy to go with Masters or who ever, but the comments like these should be sourced. I'll add the two you (HLGallon) have provided please see that I have got them correct. --
Philip Baird Shearer
00:23, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Because of the size of the article I think it is time to consider moving the Order of Battle to its own page. I would favour Order of Battle of the Chindits rather than Chindits' Order of Battle or Chindits' order of battle or order of battle of the Chindits. I don't like the apostrophe in the name and the name is similar to Order of Battle of the Waterloo Campaign. But I am open to suggestions on the name and if it should be done. -- Philip Baird Shearer 01:03, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Yesterday I replaced the section on 1944 plans with a simplified version that explains the 1944 planning process in a very direct way. A short, to the point and non-controversial version is better in my opinion than a long misleading one. Depending on Slim's account and highlighting the version of "orders" he gives in his book is not the best approach. Slim's book also plays fast-and-loose with the chronology of his discussions with Wingate. I also strongly disagree with the over-emphesis of the SEAC conference. Some sources, rather than deal with the details of planning simply develop a narrative of conferences which is misleading.
This issue of planning is historically very important to get right because it plays heavily into arguments over events after the death of Wingate. What can be said to have been planned in 1944 was the entry of the Chindits into the strongholds in north burma and the advance of 16th brigade overland. Little in the way of firm plans beyond that existed or were followed.
Full explaination of the planning process would be very long. It would involve tracing events from August until March. It would require dealing with a large number of sources and seperating out decisions that matter from those that dont. Its not something to be done in a few hours. For those reasons, I advocate for a short direct version that explains the high level details of the operation but that does not depend on Slim's directive issued a month before the main operation was even launched. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.188.117.11 ( talk • contribs) 18:42, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
the french formed the C.L.I. ( FEFEO) commandos after the chindits [1]. it is worth mentioning in the article. Cliché Online ( talk) 10:27, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't think that the two new section ("Medical services and sanitation" and "Discipline") introduced by This edit is supported by the source "Harrison , M., Medicine and victory: British military medicine in the Second World War" which is available in preview form with Google books seep pages 202-213 (not all of the pages are available but I think there are enough to give an reasonable overviews from the online cited source).
To give some examples. the first sentence "Wingate was later severely criticized for a disregardful attitude to medical services" well yes the source contain that but it says this is what others wrote. While not defending his behaviour the sources is not as condemning as some of the sources it quotes (see page 202). A much better approach to this issue is presented on page 212,213 where the author compares and contrasts Wingate and Slim's approach. It is generally recognised that Slim had a very progressive (and correct) approach to preventative medicine to reduce battle field casualties from disease. -- But as has been mentioned in other sources used in this article Slim had to order his offices to enforce the taking of quinine by their soldiers (see Slim: Relations with troops), so Windgate's attitude to the taking of preventative measures was not that unusual.
Another problem with this section is it fails to explain the difference between the first and second expedition eg "As there were no detailed stretcher bearers in the columns and often no means to evacuate sick or wounded men the alternative to marching was often being left behind." While this may have been true in the first expedition it was not true on the second one. Further because on the first expedition they had no means of air extraction, there was no means of evacuating sick or wounded men, so the alternative to marching or being left behind. The jungle terrain in Burma is some of the most difficult in the world, it would have been impossible for the fitter men to have carried their comrades for far.
So having read the source and looked at that section, I think that although the current wording is supported by the source, it does not present a fair description of the content of the source.
The second section is also not supported by the source and does not present a fair description of the content of the sources. The point is made in the source that some of the men who were sent to him were old (for soldiers), who had already been diagnosed as unfit for jungle warfare, so it suited Windgate and those men they they reported sick during training, as he had no use for them in the campaigns he was planning and they did not want to go. The paragraph does not read that way instead it reads that Windgate forced them to stay and flogged them if they did not perform.
The flogging sentence is very typical of the whole section what the source does is quote another source "Factors influencing Morale Unfavourably. ... Public Flogging of B.O.R.s. Greatly resented. Nothing but an exhibition of slavery. All agreed that the guilty men deserved their punishment, but the punishment should not have been implemented publicly in front of natives and coloured troops." But the source says in footnote "142 The only reference to corporal punishment anywhere in any sources available to the editor.".
So the source clearly does not support the statement "In violation of military law Wingate had men flogged during the first Chindit operation." Because
I think both sections should be removed until such time that they are rewritten to present a fair and accurate summary of the content of the sources. -- PBS ( talk) 13:51, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
moved here as proposed above:
"Medical services and sanitation" and "Discipline"
|
---|
>===Medical services and sanitation=== Wingate was later severely criticized for a disregardful attitude to medical services - even basic sanitary precautions such as latrines - which came to characterize much of the force. The resultant lack of hygiene contributed to many cases of disease and some medical officers concluded that he was unsuited for command. Slim pointed to the fallibility of Wingate's eccentric mind-over-matter beliefs by recalling that the second Chindit operation was delayed after he contracted typhoid by drinking water out of a flower vase and nearly died. Wingate distrusted doctors and thought that British troops tended to go sick unnecessarily, he took a minimum of medical staff on operations and many troops were afraid to report sick for fear of being accused of "scrounging." As there were no detailed stretcher bearers in the columns and often no means to evacuate sick or wounded men the alternative to marching was often being left behind.(Harrison , M., Medicine and victory: British military medicine in the Second World War) >===Discipline=== The initial batches of troops sent for the special force aroused Wingate's prejudices about malingering. They were often unenthusiastic older men who were beset by chronic maladies and many removed themselves to medical stations shortly after training began. In violation of military law Wingate had men flogged during the first Chindit operation.( A Record of Heedless Valor) }} |
-- PBS ( talk) 12:30, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Today I removed a section on confusion to whom Windgate reported. Slim in "Defeat into Victory" on page 216 write "His force finished its training in India, and was now placed under my commad. I called Windgate to clear up several matters...". Slim goes on to say that Windgate announced that he felt at liberty to contact Slim's superiors directly if he did not agree with Slim to which Slim pushed a message pad over his desk to Windgate to call his bluff. -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:44, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
He was not the only one in that campaign who was a little caustic, Vinegar Joe was known to be difficult. But AFAICT Windgate reported to the 14th Army and that meant Slim. He may have chosen to talk to Slim's superiors, but that does not mean that the chain of command was not clear cut. Which in the case of Vinegar Joe was not true because he did have multiple commands. If you have a source which repudiates this and in fact Windgate did officially report to more than one commander during Operation Thursday, then please provide the source and integrate it into the text. -- Philip Baird Shearer 00:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Why do you think that Slim is a questionable source and why is it not definitive? Can you produce another author to back up you assertion that Slim is a "questionable source that is not by any means definitive"? Do you have a source other than Wingate which confirms Wingate's view that his chain of command was not through Slim? Page 220 of D into V, Slim writes "[Windgate] made one last attempt to make me change by saying that he would not accept the order I had drafted. I gave him an unsigend copy of the draft, told hem to take it away, sleep on it that night and come back at ten the next morning, when I would give the same order signed. I told him I had never had a subordinate officer refuse an order, but if one did, I knew what to do. General Giffard happened to be visiting my headquaters and I asked him to be in my office the next day when Wingate came." Slim says that next morning Wingate accepted the order without comment. -- Philip Baird Shearer 15:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Lundin, Walter B. (2002) Slim's Generalship in the 1944 India-Burma Campaign ( Abstract) confirms that Windgate reported to Slim. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 20:11, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Historians and eye-witness accounts who show that Slim is a questionable source and not definitive include:
Air Marshal Sir John Baldwin (commander 3rd Tactical Air Force in Burma) General Tulloch (Chindit commander and close associate of Wingate) Brigadier Calvert (ditto) Brigadier Fergusson (ditto) Lord Mountbatten General Tanaka (Japanese general who opposed the Chindits whose testimony contradicts Slim's) General Mutagachi (ditto) Otto Heilbrunn (German military historian) Colonel Barker (military historian) Liddel Hart (ditto) Arthur Bailey (ditto) John Grover (GOC 2nd Division) Colonel Barton (military historian) Brigadier Peter Mead (ex-Chindit, co-author of Orde Wingate And The Historians which challenged the official history and the distortion, denials and misrepresentation Wingate's suffered in the history books) Sir Robert Thompson (RAF Liason officer with the Chindits & later counter-insurgency expert in Malaya and Vietnam; co-author of Orde Wingate And The Historians) Colonel Cane MC Brigadier Walter Scott (ex-Chindit) Louis Allen (historian & author of Burma, The Longest War) David Rooney (historian & author of Wingate And The Chindits: Redressing The Balance)
All of these commentators campaigned or wrote books against the image of Wingate presented by Slim and other figures such as Kirby. At the very least their testimony needs to be looked at. When Wingate died, Slim said of him:
"The number of men of our race in this war who are really irreplaceable can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Wingate is one of them. The force he built is his own; no-one else could have produced it. He designed it, he raised it, he trained it, he led it, inspired it and finally placed it where the meant to place it - in the enemy's vitals.
In all this he would have been irreplaceable, but he has accomplished his greatest work. He has forged the weapon, others may now wield it. From the force itself come his successors, imbued with his will and his vision.
We are proud to have WIngate's force as part of the Fourteenth Army. The men he led, his Chindits, know that the finest tribute they can pay to the great leader is to complete his work and to perpetuate in themselves his courage and his determination to strike to the utmost in their country's cause."
Why he changed his mind is dealt with in David Rooney's book. Pegasuswhiterose ( talk) 23:06, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Is it worth merging the article Order of Battle of the Chindits with this one? It seems disjointed to have a section header with just a link to an article of lists. Or would a table here or drop down work better. Manytexts ( talk) 02:52, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
This is a woefully inadequate article, which seems solely to peddle the revisionist line of Slim et al against Wingate. Detail of what LRP involved, detail of the campaigns themselves, accounts of the pro-Wingate campaign's historical assessment in response to the slur campaign since the war etc are all massively lacking. Moreover, some of it is just downright false and potentially slanderous. For instance, Wingate did not give orders on any Chindit campaign to leave the wounded behind. In the first campaign some wounded soldiers who could not be saved had to be abandoned, but when they could not be saved. Wingate never gave a blanket order that the wounded should be deserted (how could he? This was the British Army, for God's sake!. No proper army in the world would give such an order) and, as officer and historian Sir Roger Thompson made clear in his study of the campaigns, Make For The Hills (1989), Wingate specifically organised light aircraft to fly out his wounded.
Wingate was an austere but humane commander who inspired fierce loyalty in his troops. He also led from the front, which is more than can be said for many of detractors. At the very least this article should give both sides of the story about him, not just trade shallowly on the negative campaign against him.
Pegasuswhiterose ( talk) 08:22, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
He was second-in-command under Wingate, and was passed over in favour of Lentaigne. From what i have read, he played an important role in integrating the 70th Division into Wingate's force. Some mention should be made of him, and why he was not placed in full command on Wingate's death. EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 18:26, 5 March 2015 (UTC)