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The most recent edit on the main page was by User:Uncle G and was the placement of, of all things, a MERGE tag - "({{mergefrom}} suggestion, per the AFD discussion)" - which led to to think "which AFD?". Well, turns out there's a chink AFD and there's now an attempt to equivocate/equate that word with this one. I'd say the discussion between HGQ, Zeus and Keefer in the Dictionary section above is enough to validate that little case of mistaken identity. Rather ironic that there's an AFD for chink, which is an English word (albeit a nasty one) and not for Gweilo, which isn't an English word (and is or can be just as nasty). Whatever the case, I'll be filing "oppose" on this merger, for what are by now obvious reasons of the huge body of literature and sources involving "Chinaman", which you won't find for "Chink", and the clear and unequivocal reality that they are not identical, one even when derisive is nowhere near as derisive as the other, and so on. Perhaps User:Uncle G knows better, as the pointers on both page's merge tags come to this page, and being out of the blue and all as they have been I think we may have a clue as to the identity of Four-Point-Point. What's further curious here is that while that edit comment says there's an AFD, there isn't an AFD template on Chink, so "where's the fire?" Oh, I see, it's a made-up AFD to justify somebody's agenda to get these merged because they think/want to be as bad as the other....but I'll look at the Articles for Discussion page because maybe, who knows, some other similar term (whatever it would be) is being deleted/merged (?). Skookum1 18:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's a hint for everyone here: Stop using dictionaries as sources, and stop doing lexicography in the wrong project. Using a dictionary as a source either requires original research, of exactly the form that you've been doing earlier on this talk page (analysing raw data to try and infer whether people were racist when they have used a word), or results in a dictionary article. At the very least, start using books like ISBN 1877864978 as sources, which don't deal with these several words separately, notice. (There are at least four other words and phrases that are parts of this subject.) Once you start looking at sources other than dictionaries, and stop doing original research based upon raw data, you'll realize what the subject is, and realize how to properly cover it in a way that you won't have to edit war over. Uncle G 02:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This merge discussion is now defunct because its instigator, in failing to get it through, put another POV-oriented template on this page for the English language names for Chinese people, which he created because he couldn't get his way around here. And as for 4.236.111.5, since you've decided to vote it's time for a sockpuppet/checkuser report to find out who you're not wanting to be identified as. And to JzG - Chinaman is about a LOT more than a "name for Chinese people"; read the rest of this talkpage and its archive, then comment again; but both these NEW VOTES are out-of-date and irrelevant. If you wish to vote on the current merge proposals, do so at Talk:English language names for Chinese people, where there is also a merge dsicussion for List of ethnic slurs, which is where Uncle G's pet new article should be merged to as it only replicates what's already there. Skookum1 21:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
This was on a blog, but it is quoting a book (of newspaper columns) so if someone was interested they could find the source. Anyway, you can see Orwell, who was concerned about what we would call political corectness, says this:
One's information about these matters needs to be kept up to date. I have just been carefully going through the proofs of a reprinted book of mine, cutting out the word 'Chinaman' wherever it occurred and subtituting 'Chinese'. The book was published less than a dozen years ago, but in the intervening time 'Chinaman' has become a deadly insult. [2]
The column came from the mid-1940s, I don't have the book so I don't have the exact date but he's saying that, to him, "Chinaman" was fine in the early to mid 1930's but unacceptable in the mid 1940s. Like I said, Orwell is not representative of English-speakers generally. But it might be worth some sort of inclusion if somebody was interested enough to check out the book. -- JGGardiner 20:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I should have also noted that he is bemoaning that the terms are still commonly used as standard. In the same book there is this quote which can be found on Wikiquote:
But is it really necessary, in 1947, to teach children to use expressions like "native" and "Chinaman"? [3]
If I recall correctly, he is talking about a children's book which had a "C is for Chinaman" entry. Orwell obviously doesn't speak for everyone. But I think this does show something of a date and it also shows the difference between an slur and a common word which is seen as offensive without the intent to offend. Somewhat like the word "gypsy" today. A lot of people don't even realize that it is considered offensive. -- JGGardiner 21:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't worry I'm not going to cite all NYT usages, but I did run a search on their archives and it turned up this. I can't afford to join - probably a very interesting resource, no? - but the result "We found 64,176 newspaper articles that match your search for chinaman! Read them all right now with a plan that fits your budget." is no doubt a bit of a revelation; it would be interesting to locate the first article where condemnation of the term is the context, or included in the context; regular-inoffensive uses before that date would of course be legion. In the tens of thousands in point of fact. Skookum1 22:11, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow. Google Books turns out to be a goldmine for that idea of a bibliography of titles/articles, huh? Also probably for illustrative passages. As for the NYT, hard to say what exactly to look for out of those tens of thousands...certainly any article about it becoming taboo, in whatever year that might be (?), but also coverage of things like the riots in Vancouver, Wyoming, and coverage of the gold rushes and railway construction maybe. Obviously a ton of material; I'll give it some thought and see if there's anything more specific we might look for in the NYT Archive, vast as it is....Guess I might as well try the Gutenberg Project and maybe WikiSource also. Skookum1 23:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's one for you Hong, a book that's turned up twice already, in the resources section in a couple of places; it turns out it was originally in Chinese, which poses the question "how is "Chinaman" translated into "Chinese". I'm not sure, but the answer would appear to be zhongguo ren:
NB the equivalency of "Chinaman" and "Zhongguo ren", if that's what is; if Hong could help break down the translation it might be helpful, i.e. if Chou lou turns out to be the Chinaman equivalent here (??), and zhongguo ren in syntactical contexts if the ref to Chinese culture overall). I dont' have that link open; seem to me it's quite early, e.g. 1920 but I'll look once I close the edit.....nope that's his birth year, publication date was 1992. What's the literal tranlation of the Chinese title? Skookum1 01:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I speak a bit of Chinese, and the translation is literally "The Ugly Chinese Person." 'Zhongguo Ren" means Chinese person, and is still used today. It is not in anyway insulting. Zeus1234 01:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Do you have a source that discuss whether or not the translation of "zhong guo ren" to "Chinaman" in 1985 is offensive or done with the intend to offend? Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 04:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Chinaman = 支那人, and 支那 is the old Chinese for CHINA, or SINA the word CHINA comes from. Today, you have SINA.com for example, the leading Chinese website. Now, modern Chinese find 支那 (CHINA=SINA) offensive, who knows why, but they do. So the word CHINA, since it is derived from 支那 SINA is itself offensive. Not being able to bann the use of CHINA (支那) they are able however to get away with claiming CHINAMAN (支那人) is offensive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.22.218.194 ( talk) 09:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
Skookum, if you are wondering what exactly 支那人 means in each character, you won't be able to find an answer. 支那 is a phonetic transliteration of China and is pronounced 'zhi na.' When combined, the two characters don't have any meaning other than the phonetic one. 支 is a measure word and 那 means 'that' or 'those.' Zeus1234 03:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
It is nonsense to assert that the English word 'Chinaman' is a translation of the Chinese word "Zhongguo ren". It comes from the English words, 'China' and 'man'. It means, a person from China. Simple. The historical use of English refers to Frenchmen, Irishmen, Dutchmen and Chinamen, but not to Italiamen, Polemen, Swedemen or Japanamen. The reasons for this are obscure, maybe it depends on whether the name has an 'N' in it, but they are the established historical usages. The deplorable fact that, 100 years ago, white Americans or Canadians or Australians were opposed to mass immigration to those countries, from China, does not inherently make the common noun refering to an individual from those countries, offensive. Eregli bob ( talk) 11:23, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Just made a comment on Talk:Chinaman about this, which is yet another meaning/context, but posting here to notify anyone who's taking the time to read the various citations that I've completed items from R. Kipling for their general cultural/contemporary interest; I didn't do one-line citations but whole passages to give context to the usage/flavour and of course also Kipling's own attitudes and his times. There's passages on BC in specific, btw, and re "Chinamen" as contrasted to "Japanese" (not "Japs"). Skookum1 20:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This is more about the Chinaman DAB page (which I think should be Chinaman (disambiguation) as discussed above somewhere), but because of all the geographic placenames using "Chinaman" a listing of those seems required as on other disambiguation pages given geographic and also compound usages; Mokolii used to be Chinaman's Hat, and there are three other "Chinamans Hat" locations in Idaho, Washington and Montana as well as three "Chinaman Hat" locations (not "Chinaman's Hat", though), two in Oregon, one in Texas, as well as the other Chinaman-placenames already listed (here or on the resources page, whichever); none seem article worthy, except for Chinamans Arch (no apostrophe) in Utah or Chinaman Spring somewhere on the USGS quad titled Old Faithful, so therefore in Yellowstone National Park although possibly only a subfeature listing on the Old Faithful page as it doesn't show up much on the actual topo...hmm it's in the index, but not on the topos, so must have been expunged, although many other similar names have not been; could be because it's in a national park? (the county is Teton so I'd thought it was Grand Teton Natl' Park originally) - oh, and Chinamans Dinner Dam in Montana....hmmm Chinamans Canyon in Colorado may also be article-worthy, and there's a Chinaman Trail in the Blue Mountains or Oregon which doesn't seem likely to get a htrail article via WikiProject Oregon unless there's a heritage story or featured-trail status for it (? - obscure on maps, but maybe in hiking/camping guides)...and Chinaman Cove Campground next to Canyon Ferry Dam in Montana, also obscure but y'never know maybe popular and will wind up with a local-recreation facilities article, or a mention in the Canyon Ferry Dam/Reservoir articles. Not sure how or if to list them all, but certainly some seem warranted for a listing of geographic-name usages, including the old one for Mokolii as a historical usage. These comments made here because they are in the context of ongoing usage, irrespective of condemnations/controversies, but also because much of the discussion here is relevant to content at Talk:Chinaman anyway. A note has also bee nplaced on Talk:Mokolii about possible dab'ing of the Chinaman(s) Hat placenames. Skookum1 21:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I made a trip to the library today and searched some dictionaries, all of which said 'Chinaman' was derogatory. I did however find some alternate meanings, which are not derogatory.
From the New Partridge Dictionary of Slang: Chinaman, noun
Zeus1234 00:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
There are lots of examples of the words from the New partridge that I can write down if requested.
From Cassel's Dictionary of Slang:
There's actually a whole page North American native name controversy (think I've got that name right; maybe Native American name controversy, but I found the following points as summarized by User:Kevin Myers on Talk:Indian Wars in the section titled "Naming"; there is no equivalent poll here but the context of the debate is related to the points summarized below in a sometimes-similar discussion (see the "controversy" article; I'll probably have to fix its title as that was by memory).
I've heard much the same thing said, over and over, on CBC radio and in its documentaries and in newspaper/magazine writeups about the same situation re historians and Asians in BC, and also First Nations. As a result, all we have are shows about them, often largely talking about how there haven't been any shows/exposure for them, and how "this one" is going to make a difference, and what historians there are from before the politically correct period are blanket-dismissed and only the rejigged versions of history are welcome. I'd venture that Asian historians, and Asian North American historians, are also at least guilty of the same about non-Asian North Americans and their society and culture, or for that matter concerning European history and culture. Perspective is always a two-way street, as a certain First Nations Wikipedian Keefer4 and I know of has been now-patiently learning through actually talking to some of the enemy and finding out why they think/say what they do, instead of just howling at them as if they were some kind of monster (the usual p.c./protest movement tactics for confronting different realities). I actually think Hong's learned quite a bit in the course of what's gone in in what is now not a content dispute but a content development discussion (Uncle G's "contributions" notwithstanding) and an exploration of the culture-history of the word (hopefully more than myself and Keefer4 are keeping the resources page on their watchlists, as it continues to grow). The comparison of the Native American name controversy with this one is not meant as a snipe, just a matter-of-fact reality about the politics of language; in which this word is, evidently from the citations overleaf, an important part, albeit rather more symbolic than having anything to actually do with etymology as such; more to do with shifting contexts and cultures/values over time and place. Like it or not, this word is part of North American culture, and because perhaps it's more non-Asians who have used it, there should also be some other templates than the Asian American one already in place; the US and Canada WPs don't seem right, but there might be something suitable (in order to attract others than just from the one WP adn the perspectives that might be expected from there - though not necessarily expected, as I think we've already seen in the characters discussion). Thought about WPBC but that's not right either.... Skookum1 02:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
You're equivocating. Citations of "both" (all) kinds of usage are emerging, including more books that use the title to address the issue of discrimination; I would have thought you would have been happy about that. And yes, without sources that actually discuss its offensive nature in the 19th Century, you can't presume to claim in the weight of mounting and overwhelming evidence that it was offensive in the 19th Century. You only have statements from 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s people who condemn the term but, to my knowledge, not one of them discusses WHY the term is offensive. Especially when many people THEN and many people STILL NOW do not think it is offensive, although they may not use it. There is evidence (Orwell) the tide against the word's acceptability as the generic word for a Chinese person (even a female, quite often, in fact) seems to have been turning in the 1930s - but even as late as 1954 a mainstream dictionary of English usage says it is the more common usage for small numbers of people, with "Chinese" tending to be reserved. But it is long after that that Maxine Hong whatsername equated the word with "nigger" (the equivalent tone, at worst, might be "coloured") and you have all the hysterics and diversions and deflections and non sequiturs from guys like Uncle G, and of course a couple of curve balls thrown by you that, sadly for you, bounced right back (will you answer me about those issues with the characters or not?). Anyway, none of this is irrelevant - it's all highly irrelevant; what's irrelevant are any of the objections you're raising. And in the case of the logic you've just field, you've raised the point that there are in fact a lot of sources in a certain time period which use it as the main word for a Chinese person, and NONE in that time period which say it is offensive. Yes, it became offensive, and became (to some people only) hotly offensive (like Maxine and Uncle G) but the full range of meanings, and the evolution of the various adaptations (as well as the separate china trade meanings, which you'll note in OED include one that's given as the primary meaning...); all this is a "history of a word article". That it contains a lot of facts inconvenient to the faction that wants to think like Maxine Wong and rant and scream about, instead of be rational and try and document the word and its history....as with Gweilo. Whatever. A friend just arrived so I'm going to go deal with real-world conversation. You're tying yourself in knots, Hong, and trying to change topics, trying to insist on irrelevance only to render yourself more and more irrelevant in the process. You're just digging the hole deeper; it was you who asked for citations about inoffensiveness vs offensivenesss, after all. You can have your cake and eat it too. But you have to eat all of it, if you're going to be polite. Skookum1 06:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, gee, if you'd said that a week a ago, then we wouldn't have had to quibble about qualifying "offensive" with either "usually", "often", "sometimes". I can deal with the latest text that Xiner did on Chinaman in the wake of me taking out "offensive" (which IMO shouldn't have still been there), so now it mentions that it was common usage but is now often derogatory, that's fine for that page. And yes, sources that actually discuss its offensive nature would be helpful; denunciations and condemnations are not discussions or studies; they're political tracts; if there's a sociolinguistics paper or anything else out there on the history of the word and its origins and how it became derisive, and there may be (it may be in some of those ones that use it in their titles), that's great; but so far all there is are wild-eyed claims by types like Maxine W. Kingston and Uncle G., and no actual rational discussion. I could hold a press conference and loudly scream that "honky" or even "Caucasian" are negative words with incorrect and demeaning histories, and scream and rant at Ted Turner and Jerry Seinfeld too; that doesn't mean I'd be write. I'd get a lot of news copy, and if I were from the right group I could get the NAACP to cluck their tongues and approve, too. But I still wouldn't be right, and there still wouldn't be citations proving the emotional position I'd taken. Because you can't prove emotions - you can only act them out (if you do, many don't). And perceptions based in what someone thinks another people is meaning by a word fall into the category of "emotions" as well as, by definition, being incredibly subjective. Skookum1 18:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Not sure who this guy is, but it's clearly his choice of personal nickname (even though his surname appears to be Olmstead...). But it's another instance of a North American person using the word as a self-referential nickname; presumably he's part-Chinese (or not?). Skookum1 19:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Found a speech by Bo Yang about his book given at Ohio University and it's interestingly self-critical of Chinese culture, which is why "Ugly Chinaman" is featured in the title, as he explores the negative images/behaviours of the Chinese vs. other groups. "Ugly Chinaman" occurs as the paradigm repeatedly, but sometimes he uses "Chinaman" or "Chinamen" in standalone contexts:
The rest of the paper contains similar contents, either using "Chinese" or "Ugly Chinaman". Evidently this work by Bo Yang is not a critique of the discrimination/colonialist experience but of the traits of Chinese culture/personality which give rise to the "Ugly Chinaman" image; he makes also reference to the Ugly American and Ugly Japanese. Skookum1 20:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
There are too many asides here to follow and I think that we should start with the basic issues first. So I'm going to put up Xiner's previous compromise edit and please say what your objections are to this edit. I would like for us to figure out what should be in the opening and what should not be there. Thanks everyone. Xiner's edit:
I was actually fairly happy with Xiner's terse phrasing on what is now the formally-named disambig page in the wake of my (yet again) taking out "offensive and derogatory" planted by our little "nameless" crusader against us "fascists" (that would appear to be a personal attack on all of us; I suggest a sockpuppet inquiry/report as it's clear this person is another Wikipedian and not an idle visitor. Anyway, this was Xiner's "fix":
I don't like "archaic" vs "outdated" as it's not fully archaic; "largely outdated" would be even better, considering its use in political essays to represent the stereotype either of white discrimination or, as in Bo Yang and Paul Wong's work, to epitomize the Chinese person/culture/image/archetype in general (to whatever end); it should also be noted that it was sometimes also used to describe women, usually in the singular (examples can be found, of course...). And on the tails of the phrase:
That's largely a summary of the disambig page, but it's important to give an idea of the penetration of the term into other areas of culture/life/language, despite the protestations of those who seemingly want to ban the term outright (and here, as we have seen, to even ban its history so the latter-day judgement has no challenge from the truth/evidence). Other than the Webster's and Fowler's, wherever it fits in I think the Orwell quote is important to demonstrate the era in which it began to become acceptable in publishing, even though it remained in Fowler's (as well as newspaper styleguides, as per various archives into the '60s). I know that's long but it has to lay out everything - so as to not be POV. The next passages/section after that, modelling this on Gweilo and other similar word-history/culture pages, should be the etymology of the word and a sampling of some of the earlier uses and variations, including the derisive compound forms (John Chinaman, Chinky Chinky Chinaman, Ugly Chinaman etc - "Chin Chin Chinaman" is a song title and popularized chinoiserie in the '20s and maybe where Chinky chinky chinaman came from, but wasn't written to be derisive - no more than Limehouse Blues, which was written about London's Chinatown Limehouse in the same period. On the other hand, that same decade saw the book Dr. Fu Manchu and the Evil Chinaman, which maybe was like Bo Yang's book, or maybe it was an anti-Chinese tract in the guise of a Sherlockian murder mystery; I haven't looked at it yet...But yes, let's collaborate on a draft intro, and then on the structure of the page and we'll all pick good examples of all the usages to illustrate the word's hisory. I'd say it's also important to get it protected once the new copy/intro is in place, at least semi-protected to keep out IP address users and new account-SPAs from ravaging it once we've got it all somewhere it's actually credible.... Skookum1 00:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
This is what I prefer:
It's to-the-point and clear. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 01:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
In addition to the model of the Gweilo and similar articles the aforementioned Native American name controversy includes layout considerations, and a range of coverage of material and viewpoints (most uncited albeit) that may prove useful for "design" here. Skookum1 03:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Neither Keefer nor I appreciated having this stuff put "out of sight, out of mind", although for the reasons of sheer volume we agree with the practicality of it, especially as those pages continue to grow. There's a lot of important material there which newcomers to this debate, such as David Levy and others, may not have noticed beforehand, and which others here have denounced as "irrelevant" and called us "fascists" and such for talking about. Whatever; here's the link to the amassed citations/usages and other resources, which I'm re-posting here because the original notice, low-key as it was, is now archived and semi-invisible. No doubt there are some who would prefer that it was invisible, but that's just not the case; so there's a link on the Talk:Chinaman (disambiguation) page to this debate page, also. Skookum1 00:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Curious how you spent you energy here attacking me re my comments about 4.x.x's nastiness, intsead of attacking him for being rude/incivil etc as well as defiant of the consensus; you don't seem to say much back to him; in this case, given your prior invocation of the Wikipedia principles so loudly, I would have expected you to lead the charge. But instead of dealing with him you pick apart what you think I said, reword it so it seems I said something you want me to have said, and criticize me. Instead of him. What's with that anyway? See No. 2 in the Bo Yang section, maybe...although this is a bit more twisted than the kind of thing Bo Yang is talking about, which in fact I do recognize all too well. Skookum1 07:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
And instead of "attacking back" why don't you take this on the chin and either answer questions instead of moving their meanings around, and also work on the aspects of the article you now admit are needed. And you might also pay attention to Chickenmonkey about not needing cites on disambiguation pages, which blows your former position there - so hard held to and ruthlessly applied - completely out of the water. I'm not going to be the one to take out the cites; I suggest it's your place to tidy up after yourself, instead of defraying here in so many ways; you said you were going to write the historical usages section, and I'm curious to see what you'll come up with; out of courtesy I've been waiting for you to begin, but it seems you're more interested in defending yourself from being too closely associated with 4.x.x. . . . while also avoiding criticizing him. Just work on the article, Hong, and crop the cultural and personal paranoia, OK? WE're all trying to work with you for a change; why not respect that? Skookum1
I was suggesting the structure and range of the article, which explores all angles and is meant to; there are no parallels re derisives although there are parallels concerning conflicting sensitivities. YOu seem to want to find fault with everything, instead of doing something proactive. And as for my ability to write and greater length (and make more sense) than yourself, stop whining; those emendations were necessary in context; not a context you care about, and which you overtly tried to shove under the carpet until thwarted by the others around here. Are you going to actually try and be helpful or are you here just to complain about what other people have said; "why" doesn't have to be in the ariticle about those sources; but the sources legitimately do and despite all yuour protestations they are highly relevant; readers of Wikipedia themselves can make up their minds whether the usages conform to Maxine Wong Kingston's raving and ranting about the word being like "nigger" and "kike". Sure, we'll have her quote her; but we'll also have examples that intelligent readers can read for themselves and decide whether she's a nutbar or not; which is my opinion, to be sure, and it won't be on the article page. But lots of examples that will clearly stand outside and beyond her ridiculous condemnation, which is not proof of offensiveness, but again proof that some people need to find thins offensive, and will fabricate realities to complement their emotions. Nothing here is irelevant Hong - except your continuous wheedling trying to put fault on others for things they either haven't even done or which you have misinterpreted or misunderstood; smarten up and get down to work. Have you removed those citations from the disambig page you demanded be placed there as if you were WikiGod? Have you tried to help those of who don't speak Chinese what the issues with the Chinese characters used to convey the term are? I know I'd translate Norwegian or Icelandic for you if you asked, as best I could anyway, or French or Spanish depending.....so why are you being so cagey with your own language? It's a simple question; you have been misdirecting the conversation with this lastest exchange instead of being useful in the slightest. What's up? Why not improve the article, and work with the others here, instead of complaining if someone dresses you down (at length) for being continuously redundant, evasive, misdirecting, and worse. You hvae great creds on your userpage, so you know how to work on articles; if you don't have anything left to contribute to this article then you should ask yourself what you're doing here. Either be helpful, or.....stick around and continue to be evasive and make yourself look foolish; it's sorta entertaining, in fact....but I really wish you'd learn to read things straight, instead of reading into them whatever it is you need in order to find a counterattack/attack. Skookum1 00:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
The merge debate is at Talk:English language names for Chinese people, which was created Mar 31 by Uncle G in an attempt to foist another hostile merger on this page. Much is uncited and all is heavily POV - hey Hong, it's full of weasel words, you should go after it with your clippers - and what there is cited is all from one side of the ballpark. Because it replicates words already on List of ethnic slurs I placed a merge template for that also, which makes a lot more sense. My own vote, obvious enough, is already there - Chinaman has other meanings than Chinese people, it's that simple. Uncle G just can't stand it, and obviously needs to somehow get his way; so he started another page and disingenuously placed a merge template here, but not on it, and didn't bother launching a merge discussion despite seeing fit to place the template (did he do that with the Chink merger, too?). Whatever; this childishness is getting obnoxious and I'll be looking through WP/ANI to find out what kind of rules govern general contrariness and "trying to pull end runs" on situations when, ahem, you've realized you're not gonna get your way, despite all the posturing in the world that everybody else is wrong. Sorry, Uncle G. We'll just have to see what the clan on Talk:List of ethnic slurs has to say about all this, huh? Skookum1 05:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
This famous letter from California in 1852 was penned in eloquent, polished English, and throughout the authors, all Chinese, continuously use the word "Chinamen" throughout, including to refer to themselves. A sample passage follows, and is very telling in the obvious non-derisive nature of the pre-modern usage/attitudes towards this term. I propose that this passage be used on the main page as an illustration of 19th Century usage of the term by Chinese themselves, vs. how it was used by other writers such as Twain, Kipling and others. Skookum1 06:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Please pay attention, Skookum. The version that I left the article at on March 22 [6] - my last edit before the article was protected, had never said the term was always offensive. And I have pointed this out over and over again in this Talk page, but it took you about a week to actually get it. Also, none of your sources have actually discussed whether or not the word was offensive in the past. You have only shown casual usage in the past. Which is why the article should remain neutral on stating whether or not it was considered offensive in the past. There are no sources to support that claim either way. After all this time, you still do not seem to understand what I'm saying. Your 2000th source on where the word appeared in the newspaper or in a census in the late 1800s do not discuss whether or not the term was considered offensive. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 15:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
You're right, Zeus1234; I'm bored of, if anything, arguing with Hong and Uncle G. But for today so far I've had my time/energy eaten up by the AFD. For a rare day in this most-rainy spring (we've had record rainfalls - 27 out of 31 days in March....) it's actually sunny outside so I'm going to go play music and forget about Wikipedia and remember what the world is for....i.e. so I'll get to writing what I think the article should be later on tonight or tomororwl, and to get it done I'll try and ignore the ongoing inanity at the AFD or any misdrirective/weasel arguments fielded here. Skookum1 20:05, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, turns out you don't have to wait for a merge discussion to end in order to start an AFD. See the AFD page for this article and join in the fun...(Wen Hsing is my hero!). Skookum1 04:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
What happened to the categories for this page? Were there ever any? I didn't notice them being deleted, but other than the merge categeory, this has no other categories. Now, why is that exactly? I know, I could have put some in but fighting the dissembling/defraying here and at the AFD has been taken up a lot of time/attention. Seems to me there are number of cats that might apply here..... Skookum1 04:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This is an editorial not an article. The editorialist who crafted this obviously thinks that Chinaman is an insulting term. It sort of reminds me of the black people who were offended by the term "niggardly". Your ignorance does not make a term offensive. But what the hey. You're having fun ... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.100.207.219 ( talk) 19:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC).
Wasn't it J. Peterman who said 'chinaman's nightcap' ? I mean, his dialogue is always designed to be archaic, especially in this episode, since he was going on safari... the pastime of out-of-date old people who use words like chinaman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.21.221 ( talk • contribs) 2007-05-20 04:45:00
What happened to the mention of this, which is much more relevant than the thing about the Japanese general which has appeared of late; this is the first time I've looked at this page since vacating myself from Wikipedia and it seems to me that the selection of examples now given is a POV-selection, avoiding the neutral and positive usages and also it's highly US-focussed. POVism is going to be a major problem with this and similar pages in the long run, largely because of "selective evidence" and the careful use/omission of various words and contexts; as in the case of the Mark Twain item which when originally mentioned here was explicitly commented upon as not being a negative usage; until my reinsertion here today it sounded like Twain was using it negatively. Focussing on "John Chinaman" is as pointless, also, as focussing on "John Bull" in a discussion of "Bull". As in b.s. Skookum1 here, not logged in as I'm on my cousin's computer. HQG I doubt this was your doing, and I thought we'd come to an understanding on working on a fair presentation of this page; I see all the edits "since" and don't have time to review them all or where they're coming from. Other than the POV-selections/contexts issue, I'm also concerned as elsewhere throughout Wikipedia that there is a focus on contexts in the United States or regarding US history/culture, as if only US history/culture were relevant in Wikipedia; a parallel problem exists on Kanaka where the negative Australasian context had primacy, so it's not only a US problem. I'll be back with more, maybe this week, on various topics that I've found out about through my journeys through BC's backcountry/goldfields, but I don't have time to "police" this page as it apparently STILL needs doing. Don't anyone pretend to neutrality of purpose if the result isn't neutral in content or tone; what's been reshaped here is now favouring the latter-day prejudices concerning this term, rather than embracing its WHOLE history. Other expressions from an older time, e.g. Chinnish and so on, should also be mentioned by-the-way, and etymology vs. acquired context should also be discussed, specifically the "deliberate perjoration" of this term by latter-day "intellectuals" and policos. - Skookum1, at the moment in beautiful Oliver, British Columbia. 75.153.69.205 02:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Given your fondness for the phrase "weasel words" it's rather trite (and presumptuous) of you to say: No source to say it was "decidedly positive". And it was more probably used in a negative way as a literary tool.) Read Twain, Hong, as others around here have; his essay extols the virtues of "Chinamen" and was written in a time when most non-Chinese users of the term used the term in a non-derisive or not deliberately derisive way; the derisive form was "John Chinaman" as anybody without a pickle up their ass can realize upon reading any source from the period in a non-prejudicial fashion; in the same way that the Chinamen of California did, albeit years before Twain's own opus on them. "It was more probably used in a negative wayu as a literary tool" is entirely a subjective interpretation of yours and uses the blatantly "weasel word" PROBABLY. Who are YOU to make such a judgement on Mark Twain? Who was nowhere near as much a pompous bigot as such as you pretend not to be. Not trying to inflame our old flamewar, buddy, just asking you to give your head a shake and have a look at your own prejudices before accusing Twain of any; I can just see Twain rolling his eyes, or rather scrunching his eyebrows and puffing on his cigar, in response to your presumption about what he was saying and why/how he was saying it. "A literary tool" indeed; the only tool around here ain't Twain, that's for sure.... Skookum1 04:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
It is even more decidedly not about the careful selection/ommission/misportrayal of evidentiary material in order to support the POV agendas of post-modern ideological/ethnic biases such as the one the calculated ommissions and misrepresentations that are habitual for you and others are so clearly all about. "The sky is blue" does not need a citation of why the sky appears blue, as it is axiomatically blue by simple observation. Similarly the one and manner of Twain's writing on "Chinamen" is intelligible by simple observation/reading and needs no citation to say it's positive or negative (although you can no doubt find lots of 1990 sources maintaining that ANY historical use of the term is negative, but those are "subjective findings" and not valid citations, being POV in origin). And furthermore, oh weasely one, why don't you answer the question about the Declaration of the Chinamen of San Francisco and why it's been taken out of the article? Skookum1 02:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
How come I've never heard of a Chinawoman, only a Chinaman? Just curious. 68.36.214.143 18:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
What the hell? Relax! Take a deep breath. Yes, there is evidence that US politicians at the time (but not all) did not want Chinese women to enter the US, but as far as I'm concerned, that's irrelevant to this article. Just like about 95% of what you've written in response is irrelevant. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 16:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
They used the word specifically in a racist context, spoken by a racist person, to identify him as racist. Well, I guess not so much racist as old-fashioned. Peterman is supposed to be this ridiculously outmoded old fogey who actually goes on safari and has other outdated standards and practices. It wasn't glorified whatsoever, any more than a KKK member saying 'nigger', so why was it offensive? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.63.142 ( talk) 21:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
While the following paragraph is very good:
...It has no more casual example, i.e. the much more common usage where a derisive context was not implied (note that the sentence would retain its meaning with the word "Chinese" substituted); surely this is not a representative example of the typical usage of this term in court. E.g. "they went down to the store and got two shovels from the Chinaman there" as is also a common context in historical/diaristic accounts. As elsewhere, this single-example negative-example game is played elsewhere on this page. Skookum1 ( talk) 20:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Also:
Somewhere there's a paper or two on this compound, i.e. from an etymological viewpoint; on the one hand the latter-day political pretense is that this different stem is what makes the word derisive (!) but the more obvious point is that pidgin Chinese-English chinee is the root, i.e. Chineseman, pronounced Chineeman, contracted to Chinaman; we don't have formal vowel harmony like in Turkish, but we also have sounds like that -eesema- that aren't possible for Chinese speakers unless very experienced in English (especially in those days). Anyway, while it's good this passage is here, it seems only half-written; some comment on the differing views of this etymology and the (to me, false) pretense that the different stem is implicitly derisive, should not go unmentioned. Skookum1 ( talk) 20:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I added the section heading as the first paragraph was floating all by itself there, spouting a typical claim about why the word is offensive, when there's no actual proof that such a formation is offensive or intended that way, especially given the alternate "easier path" of the pidgin vowel-shortening; there's even some issue as to whether it was white people who "invented" the word or if it was in fact a result of English pidgin as spoken by Chinese themselves. I put in the alternate information....if "you" are going to dispute it as uncited, so is the claim made in the first sentence that the formation is implicitly derisive (I'm a native English speaker who speaks 3-4 languages and has studied several more, and don't see why China vs Chinese in the formation makes f**all difference). If there are formal studies on the etymology of this word - which there probably aren't given its politicization in recent decades and therefore "taboo" in academia - then they could/should be cited; the old alternates like "Chinnish" should maybe also be mentioned in passing. No doubt if "we" had adopted it into English, it would be condemned as derisive now because it's not written/pronounced some other way. The word may have acquired offensive/derisive tones (mostlyi because there's people who like being offended), but there's no way to show it was created that way; simply alleging that it is because the word formation doesn't click with Frenchman and Scotsman (actually the proper usage is "Scot", without the "-man") is paranoid nonsense. But there's enough people to repeat this myth to try and make it true that it keeps on surfacing; it remains uncitable; unlike early usages of Chinaman, which (once dug up) will all be in general or neutral contexts, or as with Asing and Ha Ling, obvioius examples of Chinese people using it in a positive sense and without thought that later Chinese would see it as derisive...... Skookum1 ( talk) 18:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
HGQ took this out:
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This was covered in Canadian press coverage of the name change, and as I recall was in the Canmore, AB and Calgary papers, from which it was repeated in national-circulation media of the same chain where I read it, and I know I read it; I don't have access to these papers' archives. It was Ha Ling who chose the name. An uncomfortable fact, but a fact nonetheless; if I ever find a proper cite for it (Bivouac.com's story is not ref'd either, but Bivouac should not be relied on for historical materials anyway, just geographic data). I know that the main reason HGQ took it out is he's been hostile to the notion that Chinese people readily used the term without taint of derogation or irony. He may not like it, but it's the case. I'll also be back when I dig up the Letter of the Chinamen of San Francisco from 1850s California....it was in the Archive of California or another section of the Bancroft Collection at Berkeley; another item that HGQ didn't like; the focus on this article continues to portray 19th C. usage in negative terms, which remains POV. Skookum1 ( talk) 15:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The new section just added, though uncited, is a common comparative made about this word in debates about it; it's slightly wrong in that "Frenchman, "Irishman" and "Scotchman" (though not so much "Scotsman"), also "Dutchman", can and are used in derisive contexts. The "Chineseman" comparison if there at all should make some mention of consonant-shifting and vowel shortening in pidgin usage (the final "-eez" being difficult esp. when followed by another consnant, and the "-ee" in the resultant "Chinee" being shortened to "-a"). It would be nice if all this were citable in an actual etymology paper or some such, maybe in some William Safire column or the like somewhere; most academic "analyses" of this word are actually tracts and highly POV in their evaluation of it and its origin. Skookum1 ( talk) 17:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
There are several equivalent words for people of other countries. Unlike “Chinaman”, they are not considered at all offensive and are in common use; often associated with pride in one’s country, though they are often used in derogatory contexts. These include:
There are several equivalent words for people of other countries. Unlike “Chinaman”, they are not considered at all offensive and are in common use; often associated with pride in one’s country, though they are often used in derogatory contexts. These include:
- Englishman/ Englishwoman
- Irishman/ Irishwoman
- Scotsman/ Scotswoman
- Welshman/ Welshwoman
- Frenchman/ Frenchwoman
“Chinaman”, however, does differ slightly from the above in that it might also be used to refer to race, whereas all the above cannot as they are not names of races. Another slight difference from the above is that “Chinaman” prefixes “man” with the name of the country, rather than the people of the country (the precise equivalent would therefore be “Chineseman”). The same analysis is not applied to the similar construction "Chinatown" (vs. "Chinesetown") which is not considered similarly derogatory.
One of the reamining POV problems with this article, as with most Chinese-North America history articles, is the skewed presentation of information and sources so as to shore up the prejudiced view of this word that is now so fashionable among "intellectuals". Emma Woo Louie, thankfully, is not one of those people and her explication of why the census usages of "Chinaman" were not racist should stand out loud and clear for those of you who want to browbeat us otherwise; the same can be shown in terms of court/legal usage and I'll find a cite for that (browsign Judge Begbie and others looking for a good'un....). No doubt this will not suffice for "those who need to be offended". Fine, if hyou need to be offended, please line up on the left...."balanaced" coverage of the history of the term, rather than exampels pulled to underscore Maxine Hong Kingston's paranoid rants and others like hers, is all out there; but it's so easy for those who want to underpin the "Chinaman has always been a racist term" lie simply be re-jgging contexts of discusssing exmaples out of context. Another set of examples that's clearly presented in a POV fashion is later in the same section:
To me, the first sentence could easily be interpreted - and in a full quotation might be revealed to mean/imply - "assimilation was not possible for the Negro, the Indian and the Chinaman"..."and so we must assume also about the Japanese". By 1922, true, people in North America knew what a Japanese was as distinct from a Chinese, but in 1870 this wan'st exactly the case; even at Sandhurst or wherever it was that Togo was a student; it's clear that his classmates, themselves of noble birth for the most part, would not idly concdcot a derisive/derogatory name for school comrade in anything but the most jovial terms; especially given his rank (outstripping all of them except for other imperial princes....). But also in 1870 Japan had only just barely come into public view - one reason Togo was "out there", i.e. in gaijin lands - and the physical and cultural similarities (to Western eyes), as well as China's own claim that Japan was a subject/vassal state - perhaps more help explain that personal nickname more than any need to judge all white people negatively can. Pretense and posturing is so much part of latter-day criticism of "the evils of the white past" that I submit that not only are many "reliable sources" not reliable at all, rather heavily skewed and biased and full of false information and "pat judgmeents", but when Wikipedians attempt to "knit" and edit/neutralize source materials in such a way as to udnerscore POV beliefs and prejudices it's a big disappointment about human nature. I think both of the examples cited have been taken out of context and mis-represented, eiether by editors here or - and perhaps more likely - in the fabrications and hysterics of latter-day ethnopoliticos......which are passed off as "fact" and "reliable sources" when they're actually just POV rants with bad logics and faulty use of primary sources..... Skookum1 ( talk) 00:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
So far I've managed to establish that "Cbhinaman" in adapted/mutated form is the word for a Chinese person in a number of Pacific Northwest native languages (with cites). Where would be the best place to put such information? It does belong, as well as the point that no Chinese political organization has govne after the native peoples insisiting that they change their languages to suit modern Chinese tastes (and even THAT is probably citable)..... Skookum1 ( talk) 00:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
If 'Chinaman' is mainly an American expression (I have no idea) I think that should be clarified in the first paragraph. Otherwise all the references to 'Chinese Americans' seem strangely US-centric (why would they be particularly relevant?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.170.225.130 ( talk) 09:37, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Are the people who, out of the blue, declared Chinaman to be offensive the exact same people who, out of the blue, declared Oriental to be offensive, when neither word — Chinaman or Oriental — was in regular use as a pejorative?
Is this in fact a case like Canuck, which has never been negative in Canada, but apparently was used in that fashion in New England where it referred to immigrant factory labourers from Quebec?
Did a merely minor local phenomenon get expanded outward to encompass the rest of us?
I'm a half century old. I heard "Chinaman" used last week. I'm still waiting to hear someone, anyone, use it as a pejorative.
This article is notable for the lack of concrete examples of misuse of the term. It includes some wild assertions, and a lot of counterexamples.
In 2009, the term sounds quaint and old-fashioned. Rather than negative. There were offensive terms for Chinese. This term was not among them.
I distinctly remember when I first heard that Chinaman was "offensive". It was at the office in 1986 when a friend of mine informed me of this "fact".
I found it irksome then to be informed by a non-native speaker as to which words are taboo in my first language. We were carefully schooled as children on which words were good and which were bad, and Chinaman was never discouraged.
Varlaam (
talk)
19:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC) (in Toronto)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The most recent edit on the main page was by User:Uncle G and was the placement of, of all things, a MERGE tag - "({{mergefrom}} suggestion, per the AFD discussion)" - which led to to think "which AFD?". Well, turns out there's a chink AFD and there's now an attempt to equivocate/equate that word with this one. I'd say the discussion between HGQ, Zeus and Keefer in the Dictionary section above is enough to validate that little case of mistaken identity. Rather ironic that there's an AFD for chink, which is an English word (albeit a nasty one) and not for Gweilo, which isn't an English word (and is or can be just as nasty). Whatever the case, I'll be filing "oppose" on this merger, for what are by now obvious reasons of the huge body of literature and sources involving "Chinaman", which you won't find for "Chink", and the clear and unequivocal reality that they are not identical, one even when derisive is nowhere near as derisive as the other, and so on. Perhaps User:Uncle G knows better, as the pointers on both page's merge tags come to this page, and being out of the blue and all as they have been I think we may have a clue as to the identity of Four-Point-Point. What's further curious here is that while that edit comment says there's an AFD, there isn't an AFD template on Chink, so "where's the fire?" Oh, I see, it's a made-up AFD to justify somebody's agenda to get these merged because they think/want to be as bad as the other....but I'll look at the Articles for Discussion page because maybe, who knows, some other similar term (whatever it would be) is being deleted/merged (?). Skookum1 18:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's a hint for everyone here: Stop using dictionaries as sources, and stop doing lexicography in the wrong project. Using a dictionary as a source either requires original research, of exactly the form that you've been doing earlier on this talk page (analysing raw data to try and infer whether people were racist when they have used a word), or results in a dictionary article. At the very least, start using books like ISBN 1877864978 as sources, which don't deal with these several words separately, notice. (There are at least four other words and phrases that are parts of this subject.) Once you start looking at sources other than dictionaries, and stop doing original research based upon raw data, you'll realize what the subject is, and realize how to properly cover it in a way that you won't have to edit war over. Uncle G 02:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This merge discussion is now defunct because its instigator, in failing to get it through, put another POV-oriented template on this page for the English language names for Chinese people, which he created because he couldn't get his way around here. And as for 4.236.111.5, since you've decided to vote it's time for a sockpuppet/checkuser report to find out who you're not wanting to be identified as. And to JzG - Chinaman is about a LOT more than a "name for Chinese people"; read the rest of this talkpage and its archive, then comment again; but both these NEW VOTES are out-of-date and irrelevant. If you wish to vote on the current merge proposals, do so at Talk:English language names for Chinese people, where there is also a merge dsicussion for List of ethnic slurs, which is where Uncle G's pet new article should be merged to as it only replicates what's already there. Skookum1 21:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
This was on a blog, but it is quoting a book (of newspaper columns) so if someone was interested they could find the source. Anyway, you can see Orwell, who was concerned about what we would call political corectness, says this:
One's information about these matters needs to be kept up to date. I have just been carefully going through the proofs of a reprinted book of mine, cutting out the word 'Chinaman' wherever it occurred and subtituting 'Chinese'. The book was published less than a dozen years ago, but in the intervening time 'Chinaman' has become a deadly insult. [2]
The column came from the mid-1940s, I don't have the book so I don't have the exact date but he's saying that, to him, "Chinaman" was fine in the early to mid 1930's but unacceptable in the mid 1940s. Like I said, Orwell is not representative of English-speakers generally. But it might be worth some sort of inclusion if somebody was interested enough to check out the book. -- JGGardiner 20:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I should have also noted that he is bemoaning that the terms are still commonly used as standard. In the same book there is this quote which can be found on Wikiquote:
But is it really necessary, in 1947, to teach children to use expressions like "native" and "Chinaman"? [3]
If I recall correctly, he is talking about a children's book which had a "C is for Chinaman" entry. Orwell obviously doesn't speak for everyone. But I think this does show something of a date and it also shows the difference between an slur and a common word which is seen as offensive without the intent to offend. Somewhat like the word "gypsy" today. A lot of people don't even realize that it is considered offensive. -- JGGardiner 21:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't worry I'm not going to cite all NYT usages, but I did run a search on their archives and it turned up this. I can't afford to join - probably a very interesting resource, no? - but the result "We found 64,176 newspaper articles that match your search for chinaman! Read them all right now with a plan that fits your budget." is no doubt a bit of a revelation; it would be interesting to locate the first article where condemnation of the term is the context, or included in the context; regular-inoffensive uses before that date would of course be legion. In the tens of thousands in point of fact. Skookum1 22:11, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow. Google Books turns out to be a goldmine for that idea of a bibliography of titles/articles, huh? Also probably for illustrative passages. As for the NYT, hard to say what exactly to look for out of those tens of thousands...certainly any article about it becoming taboo, in whatever year that might be (?), but also coverage of things like the riots in Vancouver, Wyoming, and coverage of the gold rushes and railway construction maybe. Obviously a ton of material; I'll give it some thought and see if there's anything more specific we might look for in the NYT Archive, vast as it is....Guess I might as well try the Gutenberg Project and maybe WikiSource also. Skookum1 23:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Here's one for you Hong, a book that's turned up twice already, in the resources section in a couple of places; it turns out it was originally in Chinese, which poses the question "how is "Chinaman" translated into "Chinese". I'm not sure, but the answer would appear to be zhongguo ren:
NB the equivalency of "Chinaman" and "Zhongguo ren", if that's what is; if Hong could help break down the translation it might be helpful, i.e. if Chou lou turns out to be the Chinaman equivalent here (??), and zhongguo ren in syntactical contexts if the ref to Chinese culture overall). I dont' have that link open; seem to me it's quite early, e.g. 1920 but I'll look once I close the edit.....nope that's his birth year, publication date was 1992. What's the literal tranlation of the Chinese title? Skookum1 01:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I speak a bit of Chinese, and the translation is literally "The Ugly Chinese Person." 'Zhongguo Ren" means Chinese person, and is still used today. It is not in anyway insulting. Zeus1234 01:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Do you have a source that discuss whether or not the translation of "zhong guo ren" to "Chinaman" in 1985 is offensive or done with the intend to offend? Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 04:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Chinaman = 支那人, and 支那 is the old Chinese for CHINA, or SINA the word CHINA comes from. Today, you have SINA.com for example, the leading Chinese website. Now, modern Chinese find 支那 (CHINA=SINA) offensive, who knows why, but they do. So the word CHINA, since it is derived from 支那 SINA is itself offensive. Not being able to bann the use of CHINA (支那) they are able however to get away with claiming CHINAMAN (支那人) is offensive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.22.218.194 ( talk) 09:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
Skookum, if you are wondering what exactly 支那人 means in each character, you won't be able to find an answer. 支那 is a phonetic transliteration of China and is pronounced 'zhi na.' When combined, the two characters don't have any meaning other than the phonetic one. 支 is a measure word and 那 means 'that' or 'those.' Zeus1234 03:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
It is nonsense to assert that the English word 'Chinaman' is a translation of the Chinese word "Zhongguo ren". It comes from the English words, 'China' and 'man'. It means, a person from China. Simple. The historical use of English refers to Frenchmen, Irishmen, Dutchmen and Chinamen, but not to Italiamen, Polemen, Swedemen or Japanamen. The reasons for this are obscure, maybe it depends on whether the name has an 'N' in it, but they are the established historical usages. The deplorable fact that, 100 years ago, white Americans or Canadians or Australians were opposed to mass immigration to those countries, from China, does not inherently make the common noun refering to an individual from those countries, offensive. Eregli bob ( talk) 11:23, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Just made a comment on Talk:Chinaman about this, which is yet another meaning/context, but posting here to notify anyone who's taking the time to read the various citations that I've completed items from R. Kipling for their general cultural/contemporary interest; I didn't do one-line citations but whole passages to give context to the usage/flavour and of course also Kipling's own attitudes and his times. There's passages on BC in specific, btw, and re "Chinamen" as contrasted to "Japanese" (not "Japs"). Skookum1 20:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This is more about the Chinaman DAB page (which I think should be Chinaman (disambiguation) as discussed above somewhere), but because of all the geographic placenames using "Chinaman" a listing of those seems required as on other disambiguation pages given geographic and also compound usages; Mokolii used to be Chinaman's Hat, and there are three other "Chinamans Hat" locations in Idaho, Washington and Montana as well as three "Chinaman Hat" locations (not "Chinaman's Hat", though), two in Oregon, one in Texas, as well as the other Chinaman-placenames already listed (here or on the resources page, whichever); none seem article worthy, except for Chinamans Arch (no apostrophe) in Utah or Chinaman Spring somewhere on the USGS quad titled Old Faithful, so therefore in Yellowstone National Park although possibly only a subfeature listing on the Old Faithful page as it doesn't show up much on the actual topo...hmm it's in the index, but not on the topos, so must have been expunged, although many other similar names have not been; could be because it's in a national park? (the county is Teton so I'd thought it was Grand Teton Natl' Park originally) - oh, and Chinamans Dinner Dam in Montana....hmmm Chinamans Canyon in Colorado may also be article-worthy, and there's a Chinaman Trail in the Blue Mountains or Oregon which doesn't seem likely to get a htrail article via WikiProject Oregon unless there's a heritage story or featured-trail status for it (? - obscure on maps, but maybe in hiking/camping guides)...and Chinaman Cove Campground next to Canyon Ferry Dam in Montana, also obscure but y'never know maybe popular and will wind up with a local-recreation facilities article, or a mention in the Canyon Ferry Dam/Reservoir articles. Not sure how or if to list them all, but certainly some seem warranted for a listing of geographic-name usages, including the old one for Mokolii as a historical usage. These comments made here because they are in the context of ongoing usage, irrespective of condemnations/controversies, but also because much of the discussion here is relevant to content at Talk:Chinaman anyway. A note has also bee nplaced on Talk:Mokolii about possible dab'ing of the Chinaman(s) Hat placenames. Skookum1 21:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I made a trip to the library today and searched some dictionaries, all of which said 'Chinaman' was derogatory. I did however find some alternate meanings, which are not derogatory.
From the New Partridge Dictionary of Slang: Chinaman, noun
Zeus1234 00:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
There are lots of examples of the words from the New partridge that I can write down if requested.
From Cassel's Dictionary of Slang:
There's actually a whole page North American native name controversy (think I've got that name right; maybe Native American name controversy, but I found the following points as summarized by User:Kevin Myers on Talk:Indian Wars in the section titled "Naming"; there is no equivalent poll here but the context of the debate is related to the points summarized below in a sometimes-similar discussion (see the "controversy" article; I'll probably have to fix its title as that was by memory).
I've heard much the same thing said, over and over, on CBC radio and in its documentaries and in newspaper/magazine writeups about the same situation re historians and Asians in BC, and also First Nations. As a result, all we have are shows about them, often largely talking about how there haven't been any shows/exposure for them, and how "this one" is going to make a difference, and what historians there are from before the politically correct period are blanket-dismissed and only the rejigged versions of history are welcome. I'd venture that Asian historians, and Asian North American historians, are also at least guilty of the same about non-Asian North Americans and their society and culture, or for that matter concerning European history and culture. Perspective is always a two-way street, as a certain First Nations Wikipedian Keefer4 and I know of has been now-patiently learning through actually talking to some of the enemy and finding out why they think/say what they do, instead of just howling at them as if they were some kind of monster (the usual p.c./protest movement tactics for confronting different realities). I actually think Hong's learned quite a bit in the course of what's gone in in what is now not a content dispute but a content development discussion (Uncle G's "contributions" notwithstanding) and an exploration of the culture-history of the word (hopefully more than myself and Keefer4 are keeping the resources page on their watchlists, as it continues to grow). The comparison of the Native American name controversy with this one is not meant as a snipe, just a matter-of-fact reality about the politics of language; in which this word is, evidently from the citations overleaf, an important part, albeit rather more symbolic than having anything to actually do with etymology as such; more to do with shifting contexts and cultures/values over time and place. Like it or not, this word is part of North American culture, and because perhaps it's more non-Asians who have used it, there should also be some other templates than the Asian American one already in place; the US and Canada WPs don't seem right, but there might be something suitable (in order to attract others than just from the one WP adn the perspectives that might be expected from there - though not necessarily expected, as I think we've already seen in the characters discussion). Thought about WPBC but that's not right either.... Skookum1 02:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
You're equivocating. Citations of "both" (all) kinds of usage are emerging, including more books that use the title to address the issue of discrimination; I would have thought you would have been happy about that. And yes, without sources that actually discuss its offensive nature in the 19th Century, you can't presume to claim in the weight of mounting and overwhelming evidence that it was offensive in the 19th Century. You only have statements from 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s people who condemn the term but, to my knowledge, not one of them discusses WHY the term is offensive. Especially when many people THEN and many people STILL NOW do not think it is offensive, although they may not use it. There is evidence (Orwell) the tide against the word's acceptability as the generic word for a Chinese person (even a female, quite often, in fact) seems to have been turning in the 1930s - but even as late as 1954 a mainstream dictionary of English usage says it is the more common usage for small numbers of people, with "Chinese" tending to be reserved. But it is long after that that Maxine Hong whatsername equated the word with "nigger" (the equivalent tone, at worst, might be "coloured") and you have all the hysterics and diversions and deflections and non sequiturs from guys like Uncle G, and of course a couple of curve balls thrown by you that, sadly for you, bounced right back (will you answer me about those issues with the characters or not?). Anyway, none of this is irrelevant - it's all highly irrelevant; what's irrelevant are any of the objections you're raising. And in the case of the logic you've just field, you've raised the point that there are in fact a lot of sources in a certain time period which use it as the main word for a Chinese person, and NONE in that time period which say it is offensive. Yes, it became offensive, and became (to some people only) hotly offensive (like Maxine and Uncle G) but the full range of meanings, and the evolution of the various adaptations (as well as the separate china trade meanings, which you'll note in OED include one that's given as the primary meaning...); all this is a "history of a word article". That it contains a lot of facts inconvenient to the faction that wants to think like Maxine Wong and rant and scream about, instead of be rational and try and document the word and its history....as with Gweilo. Whatever. A friend just arrived so I'm going to go deal with real-world conversation. You're tying yourself in knots, Hong, and trying to change topics, trying to insist on irrelevance only to render yourself more and more irrelevant in the process. You're just digging the hole deeper; it was you who asked for citations about inoffensiveness vs offensivenesss, after all. You can have your cake and eat it too. But you have to eat all of it, if you're going to be polite. Skookum1 06:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, gee, if you'd said that a week a ago, then we wouldn't have had to quibble about qualifying "offensive" with either "usually", "often", "sometimes". I can deal with the latest text that Xiner did on Chinaman in the wake of me taking out "offensive" (which IMO shouldn't have still been there), so now it mentions that it was common usage but is now often derogatory, that's fine for that page. And yes, sources that actually discuss its offensive nature would be helpful; denunciations and condemnations are not discussions or studies; they're political tracts; if there's a sociolinguistics paper or anything else out there on the history of the word and its origins and how it became derisive, and there may be (it may be in some of those ones that use it in their titles), that's great; but so far all there is are wild-eyed claims by types like Maxine W. Kingston and Uncle G., and no actual rational discussion. I could hold a press conference and loudly scream that "honky" or even "Caucasian" are negative words with incorrect and demeaning histories, and scream and rant at Ted Turner and Jerry Seinfeld too; that doesn't mean I'd be write. I'd get a lot of news copy, and if I were from the right group I could get the NAACP to cluck their tongues and approve, too. But I still wouldn't be right, and there still wouldn't be citations proving the emotional position I'd taken. Because you can't prove emotions - you can only act them out (if you do, many don't). And perceptions based in what someone thinks another people is meaning by a word fall into the category of "emotions" as well as, by definition, being incredibly subjective. Skookum1 18:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Not sure who this guy is, but it's clearly his choice of personal nickname (even though his surname appears to be Olmstead...). But it's another instance of a North American person using the word as a self-referential nickname; presumably he's part-Chinese (or not?). Skookum1 19:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Found a speech by Bo Yang about his book given at Ohio University and it's interestingly self-critical of Chinese culture, which is why "Ugly Chinaman" is featured in the title, as he explores the negative images/behaviours of the Chinese vs. other groups. "Ugly Chinaman" occurs as the paradigm repeatedly, but sometimes he uses "Chinaman" or "Chinamen" in standalone contexts:
The rest of the paper contains similar contents, either using "Chinese" or "Ugly Chinaman". Evidently this work by Bo Yang is not a critique of the discrimination/colonialist experience but of the traits of Chinese culture/personality which give rise to the "Ugly Chinaman" image; he makes also reference to the Ugly American and Ugly Japanese. Skookum1 20:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
There are too many asides here to follow and I think that we should start with the basic issues first. So I'm going to put up Xiner's previous compromise edit and please say what your objections are to this edit. I would like for us to figure out what should be in the opening and what should not be there. Thanks everyone. Xiner's edit:
I was actually fairly happy with Xiner's terse phrasing on what is now the formally-named disambig page in the wake of my (yet again) taking out "offensive and derogatory" planted by our little "nameless" crusader against us "fascists" (that would appear to be a personal attack on all of us; I suggest a sockpuppet inquiry/report as it's clear this person is another Wikipedian and not an idle visitor. Anyway, this was Xiner's "fix":
I don't like "archaic" vs "outdated" as it's not fully archaic; "largely outdated" would be even better, considering its use in political essays to represent the stereotype either of white discrimination or, as in Bo Yang and Paul Wong's work, to epitomize the Chinese person/culture/image/archetype in general (to whatever end); it should also be noted that it was sometimes also used to describe women, usually in the singular (examples can be found, of course...). And on the tails of the phrase:
That's largely a summary of the disambig page, but it's important to give an idea of the penetration of the term into other areas of culture/life/language, despite the protestations of those who seemingly want to ban the term outright (and here, as we have seen, to even ban its history so the latter-day judgement has no challenge from the truth/evidence). Other than the Webster's and Fowler's, wherever it fits in I think the Orwell quote is important to demonstrate the era in which it began to become acceptable in publishing, even though it remained in Fowler's (as well as newspaper styleguides, as per various archives into the '60s). I know that's long but it has to lay out everything - so as to not be POV. The next passages/section after that, modelling this on Gweilo and other similar word-history/culture pages, should be the etymology of the word and a sampling of some of the earlier uses and variations, including the derisive compound forms (John Chinaman, Chinky Chinky Chinaman, Ugly Chinaman etc - "Chin Chin Chinaman" is a song title and popularized chinoiserie in the '20s and maybe where Chinky chinky chinaman came from, but wasn't written to be derisive - no more than Limehouse Blues, which was written about London's Chinatown Limehouse in the same period. On the other hand, that same decade saw the book Dr. Fu Manchu and the Evil Chinaman, which maybe was like Bo Yang's book, or maybe it was an anti-Chinese tract in the guise of a Sherlockian murder mystery; I haven't looked at it yet...But yes, let's collaborate on a draft intro, and then on the structure of the page and we'll all pick good examples of all the usages to illustrate the word's hisory. I'd say it's also important to get it protected once the new copy/intro is in place, at least semi-protected to keep out IP address users and new account-SPAs from ravaging it once we've got it all somewhere it's actually credible.... Skookum1 00:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
This is what I prefer:
It's to-the-point and clear. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 01:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
In addition to the model of the Gweilo and similar articles the aforementioned Native American name controversy includes layout considerations, and a range of coverage of material and viewpoints (most uncited albeit) that may prove useful for "design" here. Skookum1 03:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Neither Keefer nor I appreciated having this stuff put "out of sight, out of mind", although for the reasons of sheer volume we agree with the practicality of it, especially as those pages continue to grow. There's a lot of important material there which newcomers to this debate, such as David Levy and others, may not have noticed beforehand, and which others here have denounced as "irrelevant" and called us "fascists" and such for talking about. Whatever; here's the link to the amassed citations/usages and other resources, which I'm re-posting here because the original notice, low-key as it was, is now archived and semi-invisible. No doubt there are some who would prefer that it was invisible, but that's just not the case; so there's a link on the Talk:Chinaman (disambiguation) page to this debate page, also. Skookum1 00:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Curious how you spent you energy here attacking me re my comments about 4.x.x's nastiness, intsead of attacking him for being rude/incivil etc as well as defiant of the consensus; you don't seem to say much back to him; in this case, given your prior invocation of the Wikipedia principles so loudly, I would have expected you to lead the charge. But instead of dealing with him you pick apart what you think I said, reword it so it seems I said something you want me to have said, and criticize me. Instead of him. What's with that anyway? See No. 2 in the Bo Yang section, maybe...although this is a bit more twisted than the kind of thing Bo Yang is talking about, which in fact I do recognize all too well. Skookum1 07:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
And instead of "attacking back" why don't you take this on the chin and either answer questions instead of moving their meanings around, and also work on the aspects of the article you now admit are needed. And you might also pay attention to Chickenmonkey about not needing cites on disambiguation pages, which blows your former position there - so hard held to and ruthlessly applied - completely out of the water. I'm not going to be the one to take out the cites; I suggest it's your place to tidy up after yourself, instead of defraying here in so many ways; you said you were going to write the historical usages section, and I'm curious to see what you'll come up with; out of courtesy I've been waiting for you to begin, but it seems you're more interested in defending yourself from being too closely associated with 4.x.x. . . . while also avoiding criticizing him. Just work on the article, Hong, and crop the cultural and personal paranoia, OK? WE're all trying to work with you for a change; why not respect that? Skookum1
I was suggesting the structure and range of the article, which explores all angles and is meant to; there are no parallels re derisives although there are parallels concerning conflicting sensitivities. YOu seem to want to find fault with everything, instead of doing something proactive. And as for my ability to write and greater length (and make more sense) than yourself, stop whining; those emendations were necessary in context; not a context you care about, and which you overtly tried to shove under the carpet until thwarted by the others around here. Are you going to actually try and be helpful or are you here just to complain about what other people have said; "why" doesn't have to be in the ariticle about those sources; but the sources legitimately do and despite all yuour protestations they are highly relevant; readers of Wikipedia themselves can make up their minds whether the usages conform to Maxine Wong Kingston's raving and ranting about the word being like "nigger" and "kike". Sure, we'll have her quote her; but we'll also have examples that intelligent readers can read for themselves and decide whether she's a nutbar or not; which is my opinion, to be sure, and it won't be on the article page. But lots of examples that will clearly stand outside and beyond her ridiculous condemnation, which is not proof of offensiveness, but again proof that some people need to find thins offensive, and will fabricate realities to complement their emotions. Nothing here is irelevant Hong - except your continuous wheedling trying to put fault on others for things they either haven't even done or which you have misinterpreted or misunderstood; smarten up and get down to work. Have you removed those citations from the disambig page you demanded be placed there as if you were WikiGod? Have you tried to help those of who don't speak Chinese what the issues with the Chinese characters used to convey the term are? I know I'd translate Norwegian or Icelandic for you if you asked, as best I could anyway, or French or Spanish depending.....so why are you being so cagey with your own language? It's a simple question; you have been misdirecting the conversation with this lastest exchange instead of being useful in the slightest. What's up? Why not improve the article, and work with the others here, instead of complaining if someone dresses you down (at length) for being continuously redundant, evasive, misdirecting, and worse. You hvae great creds on your userpage, so you know how to work on articles; if you don't have anything left to contribute to this article then you should ask yourself what you're doing here. Either be helpful, or.....stick around and continue to be evasive and make yourself look foolish; it's sorta entertaining, in fact....but I really wish you'd learn to read things straight, instead of reading into them whatever it is you need in order to find a counterattack/attack. Skookum1 00:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
The merge debate is at Talk:English language names for Chinese people, which was created Mar 31 by Uncle G in an attempt to foist another hostile merger on this page. Much is uncited and all is heavily POV - hey Hong, it's full of weasel words, you should go after it with your clippers - and what there is cited is all from one side of the ballpark. Because it replicates words already on List of ethnic slurs I placed a merge template for that also, which makes a lot more sense. My own vote, obvious enough, is already there - Chinaman has other meanings than Chinese people, it's that simple. Uncle G just can't stand it, and obviously needs to somehow get his way; so he started another page and disingenuously placed a merge template here, but not on it, and didn't bother launching a merge discussion despite seeing fit to place the template (did he do that with the Chink merger, too?). Whatever; this childishness is getting obnoxious and I'll be looking through WP/ANI to find out what kind of rules govern general contrariness and "trying to pull end runs" on situations when, ahem, you've realized you're not gonna get your way, despite all the posturing in the world that everybody else is wrong. Sorry, Uncle G. We'll just have to see what the clan on Talk:List of ethnic slurs has to say about all this, huh? Skookum1 05:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
This famous letter from California in 1852 was penned in eloquent, polished English, and throughout the authors, all Chinese, continuously use the word "Chinamen" throughout, including to refer to themselves. A sample passage follows, and is very telling in the obvious non-derisive nature of the pre-modern usage/attitudes towards this term. I propose that this passage be used on the main page as an illustration of 19th Century usage of the term by Chinese themselves, vs. how it was used by other writers such as Twain, Kipling and others. Skookum1 06:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Please pay attention, Skookum. The version that I left the article at on March 22 [6] - my last edit before the article was protected, had never said the term was always offensive. And I have pointed this out over and over again in this Talk page, but it took you about a week to actually get it. Also, none of your sources have actually discussed whether or not the word was offensive in the past. You have only shown casual usage in the past. Which is why the article should remain neutral on stating whether or not it was considered offensive in the past. There are no sources to support that claim either way. After all this time, you still do not seem to understand what I'm saying. Your 2000th source on where the word appeared in the newspaper or in a census in the late 1800s do not discuss whether or not the term was considered offensive. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 15:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
You're right, Zeus1234; I'm bored of, if anything, arguing with Hong and Uncle G. But for today so far I've had my time/energy eaten up by the AFD. For a rare day in this most-rainy spring (we've had record rainfalls - 27 out of 31 days in March....) it's actually sunny outside so I'm going to go play music and forget about Wikipedia and remember what the world is for....i.e. so I'll get to writing what I think the article should be later on tonight or tomororwl, and to get it done I'll try and ignore the ongoing inanity at the AFD or any misdrirective/weasel arguments fielded here. Skookum1 20:05, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, turns out you don't have to wait for a merge discussion to end in order to start an AFD. See the AFD page for this article and join in the fun...(Wen Hsing is my hero!). Skookum1 04:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
What happened to the categories for this page? Were there ever any? I didn't notice them being deleted, but other than the merge categeory, this has no other categories. Now, why is that exactly? I know, I could have put some in but fighting the dissembling/defraying here and at the AFD has been taken up a lot of time/attention. Seems to me there are number of cats that might apply here..... Skookum1 04:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
This is an editorial not an article. The editorialist who crafted this obviously thinks that Chinaman is an insulting term. It sort of reminds me of the black people who were offended by the term "niggardly". Your ignorance does not make a term offensive. But what the hey. You're having fun ... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.100.207.219 ( talk) 19:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC).
Wasn't it J. Peterman who said 'chinaman's nightcap' ? I mean, his dialogue is always designed to be archaic, especially in this episode, since he was going on safari... the pastime of out-of-date old people who use words like chinaman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.21.221 ( talk • contribs) 2007-05-20 04:45:00
What happened to the mention of this, which is much more relevant than the thing about the Japanese general which has appeared of late; this is the first time I've looked at this page since vacating myself from Wikipedia and it seems to me that the selection of examples now given is a POV-selection, avoiding the neutral and positive usages and also it's highly US-focussed. POVism is going to be a major problem with this and similar pages in the long run, largely because of "selective evidence" and the careful use/omission of various words and contexts; as in the case of the Mark Twain item which when originally mentioned here was explicitly commented upon as not being a negative usage; until my reinsertion here today it sounded like Twain was using it negatively. Focussing on "John Chinaman" is as pointless, also, as focussing on "John Bull" in a discussion of "Bull". As in b.s. Skookum1 here, not logged in as I'm on my cousin's computer. HQG I doubt this was your doing, and I thought we'd come to an understanding on working on a fair presentation of this page; I see all the edits "since" and don't have time to review them all or where they're coming from. Other than the POV-selections/contexts issue, I'm also concerned as elsewhere throughout Wikipedia that there is a focus on contexts in the United States or regarding US history/culture, as if only US history/culture were relevant in Wikipedia; a parallel problem exists on Kanaka where the negative Australasian context had primacy, so it's not only a US problem. I'll be back with more, maybe this week, on various topics that I've found out about through my journeys through BC's backcountry/goldfields, but I don't have time to "police" this page as it apparently STILL needs doing. Don't anyone pretend to neutrality of purpose if the result isn't neutral in content or tone; what's been reshaped here is now favouring the latter-day prejudices concerning this term, rather than embracing its WHOLE history. Other expressions from an older time, e.g. Chinnish and so on, should also be mentioned by-the-way, and etymology vs. acquired context should also be discussed, specifically the "deliberate perjoration" of this term by latter-day "intellectuals" and policos. - Skookum1, at the moment in beautiful Oliver, British Columbia. 75.153.69.205 02:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Given your fondness for the phrase "weasel words" it's rather trite (and presumptuous) of you to say: No source to say it was "decidedly positive". And it was more probably used in a negative way as a literary tool.) Read Twain, Hong, as others around here have; his essay extols the virtues of "Chinamen" and was written in a time when most non-Chinese users of the term used the term in a non-derisive or not deliberately derisive way; the derisive form was "John Chinaman" as anybody without a pickle up their ass can realize upon reading any source from the period in a non-prejudicial fashion; in the same way that the Chinamen of California did, albeit years before Twain's own opus on them. "It was more probably used in a negative wayu as a literary tool" is entirely a subjective interpretation of yours and uses the blatantly "weasel word" PROBABLY. Who are YOU to make such a judgement on Mark Twain? Who was nowhere near as much a pompous bigot as such as you pretend not to be. Not trying to inflame our old flamewar, buddy, just asking you to give your head a shake and have a look at your own prejudices before accusing Twain of any; I can just see Twain rolling his eyes, or rather scrunching his eyebrows and puffing on his cigar, in response to your presumption about what he was saying and why/how he was saying it. "A literary tool" indeed; the only tool around here ain't Twain, that's for sure.... Skookum1 04:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
It is even more decidedly not about the careful selection/ommission/misportrayal of evidentiary material in order to support the POV agendas of post-modern ideological/ethnic biases such as the one the calculated ommissions and misrepresentations that are habitual for you and others are so clearly all about. "The sky is blue" does not need a citation of why the sky appears blue, as it is axiomatically blue by simple observation. Similarly the one and manner of Twain's writing on "Chinamen" is intelligible by simple observation/reading and needs no citation to say it's positive or negative (although you can no doubt find lots of 1990 sources maintaining that ANY historical use of the term is negative, but those are "subjective findings" and not valid citations, being POV in origin). And furthermore, oh weasely one, why don't you answer the question about the Declaration of the Chinamen of San Francisco and why it's been taken out of the article? Skookum1 02:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
How come I've never heard of a Chinawoman, only a Chinaman? Just curious. 68.36.214.143 18:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
What the hell? Relax! Take a deep breath. Yes, there is evidence that US politicians at the time (but not all) did not want Chinese women to enter the US, but as far as I'm concerned, that's irrelevant to this article. Just like about 95% of what you've written in response is irrelevant. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 16:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
They used the word specifically in a racist context, spoken by a racist person, to identify him as racist. Well, I guess not so much racist as old-fashioned. Peterman is supposed to be this ridiculously outmoded old fogey who actually goes on safari and has other outdated standards and practices. It wasn't glorified whatsoever, any more than a KKK member saying 'nigger', so why was it offensive? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.63.142 ( talk) 21:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
While the following paragraph is very good:
...It has no more casual example, i.e. the much more common usage where a derisive context was not implied (note that the sentence would retain its meaning with the word "Chinese" substituted); surely this is not a representative example of the typical usage of this term in court. E.g. "they went down to the store and got two shovels from the Chinaman there" as is also a common context in historical/diaristic accounts. As elsewhere, this single-example negative-example game is played elsewhere on this page. Skookum1 ( talk) 20:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Also:
Somewhere there's a paper or two on this compound, i.e. from an etymological viewpoint; on the one hand the latter-day political pretense is that this different stem is what makes the word derisive (!) but the more obvious point is that pidgin Chinese-English chinee is the root, i.e. Chineseman, pronounced Chineeman, contracted to Chinaman; we don't have formal vowel harmony like in Turkish, but we also have sounds like that -eesema- that aren't possible for Chinese speakers unless very experienced in English (especially in those days). Anyway, while it's good this passage is here, it seems only half-written; some comment on the differing views of this etymology and the (to me, false) pretense that the different stem is implicitly derisive, should not go unmentioned. Skookum1 ( talk) 20:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I added the section heading as the first paragraph was floating all by itself there, spouting a typical claim about why the word is offensive, when there's no actual proof that such a formation is offensive or intended that way, especially given the alternate "easier path" of the pidgin vowel-shortening; there's even some issue as to whether it was white people who "invented" the word or if it was in fact a result of English pidgin as spoken by Chinese themselves. I put in the alternate information....if "you" are going to dispute it as uncited, so is the claim made in the first sentence that the formation is implicitly derisive (I'm a native English speaker who speaks 3-4 languages and has studied several more, and don't see why China vs Chinese in the formation makes f**all difference). If there are formal studies on the etymology of this word - which there probably aren't given its politicization in recent decades and therefore "taboo" in academia - then they could/should be cited; the old alternates like "Chinnish" should maybe also be mentioned in passing. No doubt if "we" had adopted it into English, it would be condemned as derisive now because it's not written/pronounced some other way. The word may have acquired offensive/derisive tones (mostlyi because there's people who like being offended), but there's no way to show it was created that way; simply alleging that it is because the word formation doesn't click with Frenchman and Scotsman (actually the proper usage is "Scot", without the "-man") is paranoid nonsense. But there's enough people to repeat this myth to try and make it true that it keeps on surfacing; it remains uncitable; unlike early usages of Chinaman, which (once dug up) will all be in general or neutral contexts, or as with Asing and Ha Ling, obvioius examples of Chinese people using it in a positive sense and without thought that later Chinese would see it as derisive...... Skookum1 ( talk) 18:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
HGQ took this out:
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This was covered in Canadian press coverage of the name change, and as I recall was in the Canmore, AB and Calgary papers, from which it was repeated in national-circulation media of the same chain where I read it, and I know I read it; I don't have access to these papers' archives. It was Ha Ling who chose the name. An uncomfortable fact, but a fact nonetheless; if I ever find a proper cite for it (Bivouac.com's story is not ref'd either, but Bivouac should not be relied on for historical materials anyway, just geographic data). I know that the main reason HGQ took it out is he's been hostile to the notion that Chinese people readily used the term without taint of derogation or irony. He may not like it, but it's the case. I'll also be back when I dig up the Letter of the Chinamen of San Francisco from 1850s California....it was in the Archive of California or another section of the Bancroft Collection at Berkeley; another item that HGQ didn't like; the focus on this article continues to portray 19th C. usage in negative terms, which remains POV. Skookum1 ( talk) 15:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The new section just added, though uncited, is a common comparative made about this word in debates about it; it's slightly wrong in that "Frenchman, "Irishman" and "Scotchman" (though not so much "Scotsman"), also "Dutchman", can and are used in derisive contexts. The "Chineseman" comparison if there at all should make some mention of consonant-shifting and vowel shortening in pidgin usage (the final "-eez" being difficult esp. when followed by another consnant, and the "-ee" in the resultant "Chinee" being shortened to "-a"). It would be nice if all this were citable in an actual etymology paper or some such, maybe in some William Safire column or the like somewhere; most academic "analyses" of this word are actually tracts and highly POV in their evaluation of it and its origin. Skookum1 ( talk) 17:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
There are several equivalent words for people of other countries. Unlike “Chinaman”, they are not considered at all offensive and are in common use; often associated with pride in one’s country, though they are often used in derogatory contexts. These include:
There are several equivalent words for people of other countries. Unlike “Chinaman”, they are not considered at all offensive and are in common use; often associated with pride in one’s country, though they are often used in derogatory contexts. These include:
- Englishman/ Englishwoman
- Irishman/ Irishwoman
- Scotsman/ Scotswoman
- Welshman/ Welshwoman
- Frenchman/ Frenchwoman
“Chinaman”, however, does differ slightly from the above in that it might also be used to refer to race, whereas all the above cannot as they are not names of races. Another slight difference from the above is that “Chinaman” prefixes “man” with the name of the country, rather than the people of the country (the precise equivalent would therefore be “Chineseman”). The same analysis is not applied to the similar construction "Chinatown" (vs. "Chinesetown") which is not considered similarly derogatory.
One of the reamining POV problems with this article, as with most Chinese-North America history articles, is the skewed presentation of information and sources so as to shore up the prejudiced view of this word that is now so fashionable among "intellectuals". Emma Woo Louie, thankfully, is not one of those people and her explication of why the census usages of "Chinaman" were not racist should stand out loud and clear for those of you who want to browbeat us otherwise; the same can be shown in terms of court/legal usage and I'll find a cite for that (browsign Judge Begbie and others looking for a good'un....). No doubt this will not suffice for "those who need to be offended". Fine, if hyou need to be offended, please line up on the left...."balanaced" coverage of the history of the term, rather than exampels pulled to underscore Maxine Hong Kingston's paranoid rants and others like hers, is all out there; but it's so easy for those who want to underpin the "Chinaman has always been a racist term" lie simply be re-jgging contexts of discusssing exmaples out of context. Another set of examples that's clearly presented in a POV fashion is later in the same section:
To me, the first sentence could easily be interpreted - and in a full quotation might be revealed to mean/imply - "assimilation was not possible for the Negro, the Indian and the Chinaman"..."and so we must assume also about the Japanese". By 1922, true, people in North America knew what a Japanese was as distinct from a Chinese, but in 1870 this wan'st exactly the case; even at Sandhurst or wherever it was that Togo was a student; it's clear that his classmates, themselves of noble birth for the most part, would not idly concdcot a derisive/derogatory name for school comrade in anything but the most jovial terms; especially given his rank (outstripping all of them except for other imperial princes....). But also in 1870 Japan had only just barely come into public view - one reason Togo was "out there", i.e. in gaijin lands - and the physical and cultural similarities (to Western eyes), as well as China's own claim that Japan was a subject/vassal state - perhaps more help explain that personal nickname more than any need to judge all white people negatively can. Pretense and posturing is so much part of latter-day criticism of "the evils of the white past" that I submit that not only are many "reliable sources" not reliable at all, rather heavily skewed and biased and full of false information and "pat judgmeents", but when Wikipedians attempt to "knit" and edit/neutralize source materials in such a way as to udnerscore POV beliefs and prejudices it's a big disappointment about human nature. I think both of the examples cited have been taken out of context and mis-represented, eiether by editors here or - and perhaps more likely - in the fabrications and hysterics of latter-day ethnopoliticos......which are passed off as "fact" and "reliable sources" when they're actually just POV rants with bad logics and faulty use of primary sources..... Skookum1 ( talk) 00:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
So far I've managed to establish that "Cbhinaman" in adapted/mutated form is the word for a Chinese person in a number of Pacific Northwest native languages (with cites). Where would be the best place to put such information? It does belong, as well as the point that no Chinese political organization has govne after the native peoples insisiting that they change their languages to suit modern Chinese tastes (and even THAT is probably citable)..... Skookum1 ( talk) 00:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
If 'Chinaman' is mainly an American expression (I have no idea) I think that should be clarified in the first paragraph. Otherwise all the references to 'Chinese Americans' seem strangely US-centric (why would they be particularly relevant?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.170.225.130 ( talk) 09:37, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
Are the people who, out of the blue, declared Chinaman to be offensive the exact same people who, out of the blue, declared Oriental to be offensive, when neither word — Chinaman or Oriental — was in regular use as a pejorative?
Is this in fact a case like Canuck, which has never been negative in Canada, but apparently was used in that fashion in New England where it referred to immigrant factory labourers from Quebec?
Did a merely minor local phenomenon get expanded outward to encompass the rest of us?
I'm a half century old. I heard "Chinaman" used last week. I'm still waiting to hear someone, anyone, use it as a pejorative.
This article is notable for the lack of concrete examples of misuse of the term. It includes some wild assertions, and a lot of counterexamples.
In 2009, the term sounds quaint and old-fashioned. Rather than negative. There were offensive terms for Chinese. This term was not among them.
I distinctly remember when I first heard that Chinaman was "offensive". It was at the office in 1986 when a friend of mine informed me of this "fact".
I found it irksome then to be informed by a non-native speaker as to which words are taboo in my first language. We were carefully schooled as children on which words were good and which were bad, and Chinaman was never discouraged.
Varlaam (
talk)
19:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC) (in Toronto)