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The question has been asked in an edit comment " Are there multiple such estimates?" Yes - the Chilean Embassy also has 43,000 at another page - http://www.embachile-australia.com/en/community/chileans.html . The reference being discussed above in the section Another source to be taken into account - the 245 page pdf has different figures which seem to me to be 10,000 lower in its estimates. As above:
I assume the difference is the inclusion of third generation Chilean-Australians.-- Matilda talk 14:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
~The Chilean government PDF file was a study about the number of Chileans living abroad that was conducted in 2003-2004 and was published in 2005. In regards to Australia they base their study by figures gathered from the latest Australian Census of that time and the Chilean National Registry.
The way it works is rather simple, Chilean residents abroad have children, if they choose to and if informed they register their children overseas with the nearest Chilean Embassy or consulate, if they don't than the children aren't accounted for and remain Australian. This works better with first and second generation Chileans. The 33,625 total is based on the census and registry that you are able to view on page 18. The 33,348 total on page 22 is information that is gathered solely from the 1996 and 2001 Australian Census.
Like any kind of research there is also a margin of error, for example in this case not every Chilean living abroad was informed about the study or chose not to register their children. Also thirds generation Chileans may not be accounted for.
I gather that both Jupp and the Embassy of Chile in Australia gather a higher number due to the reasoning that they are including third generation Chileans. Since the PDF file is an official Chilean government study it makes for another primary source that we can use. Selecciones de la Vida ( talk) 20:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
"However this may be an undercount, since persons with Chilean ancestries tend nominate other ancestries.[5]"
Maybe I'm missing something but how, exactly, does the citation used support that claim? I don't see that it does. -- AussieLegend ( talk) 18:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
~The content of the article is much stronger and the various sources are being presented. Selecciones de la Vida ( talk) 12:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
As above I would support the inclusion of the extra figures from the Chilean Government but in a separate paragraph. I can't speak Spanish but can see enough to understand that they are authoritative. I think they need explanation - and we need to make sure we are clear what are the problems. The Chilean government seems to be using ABS data. I don't think we serve the reader well by having varying figures out there in cyberspace which are from a reliable source that don't reconcile with our article. Obviously we have to avoid original research in explaining the differences.
We currently have According to demographer James Jupp in 2001, the total number of persons born in Chile and their children born in Australia could approach some 40 000 today, but he noted we do not have accurate figures.[3] One 2006 estimate of Chilean-Australians, including third-generation, is as high as 45,000.[6] If we add the sentence - The Chilean Government has estimated in 2003-04 there were at least 33,626 residents in Australia with Chilean ancestry: 23,420 were born in Chile and 10,206 are children of those born in Chile.[ref - cite using template {{ cite web}} the pdf pages 18 and 22 and note that the figure is calculated on the basis of the Australian census figures and the register of children born overseas who have been registered by their parents who are Chilean residents with the nearest Chilean Embassy or consulate]-- Matilda talk 18:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The removal of Chris Watson as having been born in Chile to a Chilean father was rather abrupt. Even more incredible is the undeniable fact that this article actually provides references. Selecciones de la Vida ( talk) 11:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Of the other refs cited, note 3 states probably (it is the archives again); note 4 - the trade union archives seem merely to be an abbreviated version of the ADB; similarly note 5 - the National Library and Note 6 the national Museum. Note 7 is a paper presented to th 11th Biennal National Conference of the Australian Historical Association Brisbane 3-7 July 2002 and discusses identity - the paper states... was born on 9 April 1867 at Valparaiso, Chile, son of Johan Christian Tanck and his wife Martha, née Minchin (or Skinner). Tanck was chief officer of the brig Julia which had arrived at Port Chalmers, New Zealand, from Talcahuano, Chile, on 24 December 1865; he married Martha at Port Chalmers on 19 January 1866; they departed in the Julia for Guam on 2 February. On 15 February 1869 at Waipori, New Zealand, Martha Tank [sic] married George Thomas Watson; her son Chris became part of her new family.
The paper is quite clear that the author believes Grassby and Ordonez ... extrapolate from this concealment to an overstatement of the significance of Watson’s Chilean background and Australia’s links with Chile. Al Grassby of course had a multicultural agenda to push. On the basis of the sources cited I believe it is wrong to describe Watson as a Chilean Australian. In fact the most comprehensive source on Watson's identity quoted as an inline reference rejects the assertion and I think would outweigh any other source. -- Matilda talk 17:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)Throughout his life Watson concealed the fact that he was born Johan Cristian Tanck in Valparaiso, Chile, in 1867. His father, a ship’s officer, was a Chilean citizen of German birth; his mother was a New Zealander of Irish descent. In their recent biography of Watson, The Man Time Forgot, Grassby and Ordonez highlight this concealment, although historian’s have known of Watson’s unconventional genealogy since the publication by Bede Nairn of a note on this subject in 1967. (10) Watson’s father appears to have died while Watson was only a few months old; by 1869 his mother Martha had returned with the young John, or Johan, to New Zealand and remarried, to George Thomas Watson, by trade a miner and by ancestry Irish, although his family had settled for a time in Scotland before George emigrated to Australia. John Christian seems to have been readily assimilated into the family created by Martha and George (they had nine other children) in Oamaru, in the Otago province in New Zealand’s south island. (11) Grassby and Ordonez suggest that Watson ‘…held close his secret of Johan Christian Tanck’, particularly during the First World War, when his loyalties may have been questioned. (12) They extrapolate from this concealment to an overstatement of the significance of Watson’s Chilean background and Australia’s links with Chile. Nonetheless there are some aspects of Watson’s birthright that are worth considering, even if they involve a degree of speculation. Firstly, Watson’s parentage posed an obstacle to his political career. As Jupp observed in a recent article, Watson might well have been successfully challenged as a member of the House of Representatives under s.44 of the Australian Constitution, on the grounds of his ‘dubious’ nationality – non-British subjects were ineligible to stand as candidates for the Australian Parliament. (13) This begs two questions: did Watson know the truth of his parentage, and did he actively seek to obscure public knowledge of it? I suspect that Watson knew of his real father, and his real name; but what’s interesting about this story is the investment that Watson and his contemporaries make in Watson’s legendary identity, an investment made in Watson’s face value.
~Matilda, the other editor stated that it was unreferenced which is why he took away the claim. If you follow his contribution historial he applied the same method with Nick Carle who is Australian but of immediate Chilean descent when that wasn't sourced. Selecciones de la Vida ( talk) 18:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Selcciones de la Vida, I would suggest that you please stop adding references for the exact same fact that is not disputed by anyone. One reference is enough, since there is no dispute over the fact that Watson was born in Chile, when he was born, or to whom he was born. These many references just clutter the entry, and the quantity doesn't add anything positive. Also we wikilink to him main entry where this is all presented clearly as well. Thanks. PelleSmith ( talk) 18:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
~If it is undisputed than one reference is definitely enough. His national origin was removed before, thus why extra references were included as to further validate the claim. Selecciones de la Vida ( talk) 18:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Nationbynation.com would not appear to meet the guideline on Wikipedia:Reliable sources - no authority for assertions - seems to be plastered with advertisements. -- Matilda talk 00:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
~Agree that a better reference can be used. A source from the Chile article will be added. Kransky, I concur with you that there is still a question of relevancy when discussing the racial makeup of Chileans living in Chile as compared to Chileans living in Australia. Selecciones de la Vida ( talk) 23:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
...but I miss TeePee Kransky ( talk) 10:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
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This is the
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Chilean Australians article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Archives: 1, 2, 3 |
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The question has been asked in an edit comment " Are there multiple such estimates?" Yes - the Chilean Embassy also has 43,000 at another page - http://www.embachile-australia.com/en/community/chileans.html . The reference being discussed above in the section Another source to be taken into account - the 245 page pdf has different figures which seem to me to be 10,000 lower in its estimates. As above:
I assume the difference is the inclusion of third generation Chilean-Australians.-- Matilda talk 14:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
~The Chilean government PDF file was a study about the number of Chileans living abroad that was conducted in 2003-2004 and was published in 2005. In regards to Australia they base their study by figures gathered from the latest Australian Census of that time and the Chilean National Registry.
The way it works is rather simple, Chilean residents abroad have children, if they choose to and if informed they register their children overseas with the nearest Chilean Embassy or consulate, if they don't than the children aren't accounted for and remain Australian. This works better with first and second generation Chileans. The 33,625 total is based on the census and registry that you are able to view on page 18. The 33,348 total on page 22 is information that is gathered solely from the 1996 and 2001 Australian Census.
Like any kind of research there is also a margin of error, for example in this case not every Chilean living abroad was informed about the study or chose not to register their children. Also thirds generation Chileans may not be accounted for.
I gather that both Jupp and the Embassy of Chile in Australia gather a higher number due to the reasoning that they are including third generation Chileans. Since the PDF file is an official Chilean government study it makes for another primary source that we can use. Selecciones de la Vida ( talk) 20:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
"However this may be an undercount, since persons with Chilean ancestries tend nominate other ancestries.[5]"
Maybe I'm missing something but how, exactly, does the citation used support that claim? I don't see that it does. -- AussieLegend ( talk) 18:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
~The content of the article is much stronger and the various sources are being presented. Selecciones de la Vida ( talk) 12:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
As above I would support the inclusion of the extra figures from the Chilean Government but in a separate paragraph. I can't speak Spanish but can see enough to understand that they are authoritative. I think they need explanation - and we need to make sure we are clear what are the problems. The Chilean government seems to be using ABS data. I don't think we serve the reader well by having varying figures out there in cyberspace which are from a reliable source that don't reconcile with our article. Obviously we have to avoid original research in explaining the differences.
We currently have According to demographer James Jupp in 2001, the total number of persons born in Chile and their children born in Australia could approach some 40 000 today, but he noted we do not have accurate figures.[3] One 2006 estimate of Chilean-Australians, including third-generation, is as high as 45,000.[6] If we add the sentence - The Chilean Government has estimated in 2003-04 there were at least 33,626 residents in Australia with Chilean ancestry: 23,420 were born in Chile and 10,206 are children of those born in Chile.[ref - cite using template {{ cite web}} the pdf pages 18 and 22 and note that the figure is calculated on the basis of the Australian census figures and the register of children born overseas who have been registered by their parents who are Chilean residents with the nearest Chilean Embassy or consulate]-- Matilda talk 18:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The removal of Chris Watson as having been born in Chile to a Chilean father was rather abrupt. Even more incredible is the undeniable fact that this article actually provides references. Selecciones de la Vida ( talk) 11:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Of the other refs cited, note 3 states probably (it is the archives again); note 4 - the trade union archives seem merely to be an abbreviated version of the ADB; similarly note 5 - the National Library and Note 6 the national Museum. Note 7 is a paper presented to th 11th Biennal National Conference of the Australian Historical Association Brisbane 3-7 July 2002 and discusses identity - the paper states... was born on 9 April 1867 at Valparaiso, Chile, son of Johan Christian Tanck and his wife Martha, née Minchin (or Skinner). Tanck was chief officer of the brig Julia which had arrived at Port Chalmers, New Zealand, from Talcahuano, Chile, on 24 December 1865; he married Martha at Port Chalmers on 19 January 1866; they departed in the Julia for Guam on 2 February. On 15 February 1869 at Waipori, New Zealand, Martha Tank [sic] married George Thomas Watson; her son Chris became part of her new family.
The paper is quite clear that the author believes Grassby and Ordonez ... extrapolate from this concealment to an overstatement of the significance of Watson’s Chilean background and Australia’s links with Chile. Al Grassby of course had a multicultural agenda to push. On the basis of the sources cited I believe it is wrong to describe Watson as a Chilean Australian. In fact the most comprehensive source on Watson's identity quoted as an inline reference rejects the assertion and I think would outweigh any other source. -- Matilda talk 17:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)Throughout his life Watson concealed the fact that he was born Johan Cristian Tanck in Valparaiso, Chile, in 1867. His father, a ship’s officer, was a Chilean citizen of German birth; his mother was a New Zealander of Irish descent. In their recent biography of Watson, The Man Time Forgot, Grassby and Ordonez highlight this concealment, although historian’s have known of Watson’s unconventional genealogy since the publication by Bede Nairn of a note on this subject in 1967. (10) Watson’s father appears to have died while Watson was only a few months old; by 1869 his mother Martha had returned with the young John, or Johan, to New Zealand and remarried, to George Thomas Watson, by trade a miner and by ancestry Irish, although his family had settled for a time in Scotland before George emigrated to Australia. John Christian seems to have been readily assimilated into the family created by Martha and George (they had nine other children) in Oamaru, in the Otago province in New Zealand’s south island. (11) Grassby and Ordonez suggest that Watson ‘…held close his secret of Johan Christian Tanck’, particularly during the First World War, when his loyalties may have been questioned. (12) They extrapolate from this concealment to an overstatement of the significance of Watson’s Chilean background and Australia’s links with Chile. Nonetheless there are some aspects of Watson’s birthright that are worth considering, even if they involve a degree of speculation. Firstly, Watson’s parentage posed an obstacle to his political career. As Jupp observed in a recent article, Watson might well have been successfully challenged as a member of the House of Representatives under s.44 of the Australian Constitution, on the grounds of his ‘dubious’ nationality – non-British subjects were ineligible to stand as candidates for the Australian Parliament. (13) This begs two questions: did Watson know the truth of his parentage, and did he actively seek to obscure public knowledge of it? I suspect that Watson knew of his real father, and his real name; but what’s interesting about this story is the investment that Watson and his contemporaries make in Watson’s legendary identity, an investment made in Watson’s face value.
~Matilda, the other editor stated that it was unreferenced which is why he took away the claim. If you follow his contribution historial he applied the same method with Nick Carle who is Australian but of immediate Chilean descent when that wasn't sourced. Selecciones de la Vida ( talk) 18:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Selcciones de la Vida, I would suggest that you please stop adding references for the exact same fact that is not disputed by anyone. One reference is enough, since there is no dispute over the fact that Watson was born in Chile, when he was born, or to whom he was born. These many references just clutter the entry, and the quantity doesn't add anything positive. Also we wikilink to him main entry where this is all presented clearly as well. Thanks. PelleSmith ( talk) 18:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
~If it is undisputed than one reference is definitely enough. His national origin was removed before, thus why extra references were included as to further validate the claim. Selecciones de la Vida ( talk) 18:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Nationbynation.com would not appear to meet the guideline on Wikipedia:Reliable sources - no authority for assertions - seems to be plastered with advertisements. -- Matilda talk 00:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
~Agree that a better reference can be used. A source from the Chile article will be added. Kransky, I concur with you that there is still a question of relevancy when discussing the racial makeup of Chileans living in Chile as compared to Chileans living in Australia. Selecciones de la Vida ( talk) 23:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
...but I miss TeePee Kransky ( talk) 10:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
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