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I added statements and sources from two new academic works (from my university's Women's Studies collection) on female sex abuse of children. Please review these sources and discuss any changes before reverts. They raise some shocking issues that are rarely researched in the US and that need to be shown as part of the child sexual abuse picture somehow. 128.111.95.237 04:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I added citations to back these statements and other statements I added about female assailants and their victims in response to the fact templates. However, I need assistance with the correct form to use when adding citations. Would someone please provide me an example of a text citation used in the article so I can clean my citations up? This article is very confusing to me because I am unfamiliar with all the ways citations are being cited here. 128.111.95.245 01:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I got a question and it might seem to fit here. I just found out that my mom's brother's wife, "played" with her son's penis when changing him when he was little, my mom and grandma saw this countless times and were outraged. Does that count as a molest? Also, I do think it is possible that I was molested myself by her during a sleep over with my cousens (do to sleeping, I remmeber having my shorts on and when I woke up, I was only in my underwear). Should I turn her in, is she a risk to other people/childen? blackbox13000
Iv taken care of it, waited on hold almost wasnt worth it. I had the info on hand, but I wanted a second openion on it, I didnt really want to jump the gun, thanks blackbox13000
This topic deserves 3 articles, or at least 3 major subtopics:
Adolescent sexual abuse Child sexual abuse Sexual abuse laws
The first two are very distinct. Child sexual abuse is usually related to pedophilia, adolescent sexual abuse is not.
They have different psychological impacts on their victims.
Sexual abuse laws usually cover both.
I created a new topic False allegation of child sexual abuse. The article is still young and needs sources and non-US points of view. Will Beback recommended merging it with Child sexual abuse. Personally, I think it's big enough to stand on its own but would like some additional feedback. Dfpc 23:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I would recommend great caution in merging the false allegations article into the child abuse article. The topic is highly political, and only a full and balanced consideration would do justice to the topic. It would be much better to elaborate on the issues of how reports are made, and how they are substantiated or unsubstantiated. In any case, the current false allegations entry is much too sketchy for a merge. Mmcjprof 05:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
In the 20:47, 2 May 2007 edit, RalphLender tagged the statement Some states have special rules when the two parties are close in age as unsourced. The very next sentence includes Iowa complete with a citation. Before I look up the laws in every state, how many state statutes are sufficient before this can be de-tagged? Barring a single source saying "several states have close in age exception," I think 2 more examples with citations should suffice. Comments? Dfpc 21:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I reverted to the version without the two unsourced statements. If there are citations to support the statements, please add those. Otherwise, the statements are conclusions and "original research" or opinions...neither of which have a place here. RalphLender talk 13:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I have nothing against any properly sourced information added, but I do have problems with information that isn't. This area is a political minfield so we should have sources of the highest quality that also easily can be checked. This is done by citing peer reviewed sources and writing proper references. All in best intentions. Voice of Britain 19:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Why are we deleting the entire external links section? And why do we call those deletions the "factually correct version"? [1] - Will Beback · † · 22:59, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the links. Didactic pronouncements in edit summaries are not a way to get on people's good side, for starters. Herostratus 23:59, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I say keep the external links. Unless a link is unrelated to the topic or its content is itself dubious or likely not fact-checked, it should stay. If you remove a reference, specify why each removed reference was removed in the edit summary or here. Examples: "removed reference acme, it's a personal blog written by a layman who appears to be shooting off at the mouth. Factually dubious." "Removed reference Child Abuse link refers to material no longer in this article." Note that "link is now an ad farm" or "link is defunct" should NOT be removed but should be flagged with "link no longer active as of May 2007" or some such. If possible, it should be replaced with a link from www.archive.org or another backup copy. Bottom line: If you can't justify removing it, keep it. Dfpc 04:29, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I restored the properly sourced version. You may feel the urge to revery but before you do, make sure that you add propoer cites for any claim you make so that I can verify the information. Cause that is exactly what I will do, and remove any that doesn't support your claims. Voice of Britain 23:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
(Unindent) Let's start with the second paragraph. Here is the source: http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/36/5/36. In what way does the text misrepresent the material in that source? - Will Beback · † · 00:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Whoever keeps deleting the material in this section is bordering on vandalism. The section as I restored it is appropriately sourced with material that meets the wikipedia standard of being verifiable...please do not delete it. RalphLender talk 15:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
You didn't even read the section. A verifiable source was added!!! DPeterson talk 12:55, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Alot of the referenses here are vague, they point to summaries which do not give enough information of the methods or results. I would like some clarity on the following subjects:
Seems out of context, what does it point to?
Which studies are refered to here? What do they say? The source only lead to a unreferenced summary which gives to little detail to be useful.
Same problem here, which are the "More recent studies" and exactly what do they say? Not enough information.
Page numbers should be added as it is the standard practice and extremely useful, especially when the text is so vague as this one.
Until these issues have been resolved, I have lifted out this section in its entire form here below:
This could explain the problems sexual abuse victims have with regulation of mood and other limbic functions, especially as exhibited in borderline personality disorder. Other studies also indicate that the psychological trauma caused by sexual abuse can lead to temporal lobe epilepsy, damage to the cerebellar vermis, along with reduced size of the corpus callosum. Children who had suffered only sexual abuse showed somewhat greater damage than children who had suffered only non-sexual physical abuse. However, the most dramatic effects were seen in those who had suffered both sexual and physical abuse. Male and female victims were similarly affected. [7] More recent studies indicate that sexual or physical abuse in children can lead to the overexcitation of an undeveloped limbic system [8]. Twin studies have suggested that the variations may be explained by genetics. The theory that stress is causing brain damage is implausible according to Harvard Professor Richard McNally. [6] However, there is substantal evidence that traumatic stress causes notable changes in brain functioning and development [7] [8]
In my opinion, these are surely interesting but not quite sharp enough to be in the effects section. They seem to belong elsewhere. Voice of Britain 10:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Please do not delete other's material...Better to Assume good faith and discuss 'proposed' changes here first and build consensus. I note that you have a long history of contentious editing and have been blocked before. Try to keep a cool head. If you do continue to merely delete material that is sourced (verifiable per wiki) you may find yourself blocked again. Please try to work to build consensus here. DPeterson talk 12:57, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Maybe other editors would like to chime in on the discussion below so that agreement can be reached. It may also be time to file an Rfc. What do others think? RalphLender talk 14:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Rather then have an edit war regarding the disputed content, I propose editors comment on the following section to be continued as the section on the effects of child abuse, rather than the version Voice continues to revert to. Please put your "vote" in the section below this.
'Effects of sexual abuse on children' Kendall-Tackett and others found that a wide range of psychological, emotional, physical, and social effects have been attributed to child sexual abuse, including anxiety, depression, poor self-esteem, somatic complains, complex post-traumatic stress disorder, emotional dysregulation, neurosis, post-traumatic stress disorder, and other more general dysfunctions such as sexualized behavior, school/learning problems, behavior problems and destructive behavior. [9], [10] Furthermore, children who have been sexually abused show measurable negative changes in brain functioning and development [11]
It has been suggested that young children who are abused sexually by adult females may incur double traumatization due to the widespread denial of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse by non-abusing parents, professional caregivers and the general public.
[12] Most men formerly involved in woman-boy sexual relations, however, evaluate their experience as positive upon reflection.
[13]
Wakefield and Underwager (1991) note the difference between CSA experiences of males and females, where more males than females report the experience as neutral or positive, saying that "It may be that women perceive such experiences as sexual violation, while men perceive them as sexual initiation." Rind et al. (1998)'s research suggests that this difference was present in 59 college studies on the issue, suggesting that males who claimed that their abuse was consensual were not significantly less well adjusted than the norm. Draucker (1992) had previously argued that sexual abuse against both boys and girls had similar effects, and that "initiation" was part of the myth that males are always the initiators of sex and cannot be abused. Crawford (1997) asserts that our socially repressed view of female and maternal sexuality conceals both the reality of female sexual pathologies and the damage done by female sexual abuse to children. Denov (2004) notes that the topic of female sex offending is one that is barely "beginning" to be studied and is a phenomenon that causes surprise, shock and utter revulsion even among counseling professionals.
A variety of behavioral impairments caused by child sexual abuse ( Complex post traumatic stress disorder) have been documented. [14] Changes in brain development and functioning have also been documented. This could explain the problems sexual abuse victims have with regulation of mood and other limbic functions, especially as exhibited in borderline personality disorder. Other studies also indicate that the psychological trauma caused by sexual abuse can lead to temporal lobe epilepsy, damage to the cerebellar vermis, along with reduced size of the corpus callosum. Children who had suffered only sexual abuse showed somewhat greater damage than children who had suffered only non-sexual physical abuse. [15] However, the most dramatic effects were seen in those who had suffered both sexual and physical abuse. Male and female victims were similarly affected. [10] More recent studies indicate that sexual or physical abuse in children can lead to the overexcitation of an undeveloped limbic system [11]. Twin studies have suggested that the variations may be explained by genetics. The theory that stress is causing brain damage is implausible accordig to Harvard Professor Richard McNally. [16] However, there is substantal evidence that traumatic stress causes notable changes in brain functioning and development [17] [18] Furthermore, children who have been sexually abused show measurable negative changes in brain functioning and development. [19]
[This section added for convenience by Dfpc 15:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC) based on a recent post by Voice of Britain. If it is incorrect, please replace it.]
'Effects of sexual abuse on children' Kendall-Tackett and others found that a wide range of psychological, emotional, physical, and social effects have been attributed to child sexual abuse, including
anxiety,
depression, poor self-esteem, somatic complains,
complex post-traumatic stress disorder,
emotional dysregulation,
neurosis,
post-traumatic stress disorder, and other more general dysfunctions such as sexualized behavior, school/learning problems, behavior problems and destructive behavior.
[20]
[21] They also found that a large number of children where symptom free and more well adjusted than the clinical control groups.Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).
A 1998 meta-analysis of studies using college samples by Rind et al. suggested other causes for the previously cited relationship: [22]
Meta-analyses revealed that students with CSA were, on average, slightly less well adjusted than controls. However, this poorer adjustment could not be attributed to CSA because family environment (FE) was consistently confounded with CSA, FE explained considerably more adjustment variance than CSA, and CSA-adjustment relations generally became nonsignificant when studies controlled for FE.
It has been suggested that young children who are abused sexually by adult females may incur double traumatization due to the widespread denial of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse by non-abusing parents, professional caregivers and the general public. [23] Most men formerly involved in woman-boy sexual relations, however, evaluate their experience as positive upon reflection. [24] Several studies have shown that children may experience consensual child sexual abuse as positive. [25] [26] [27]
Wakefield and Underwager (1991) note the difference between CSA experiences of males and females, where more males than females report the experience as neutral or positive, saying that "It may be that women perceive such experiences as sexual violation, while men perceive them as sexual initiation."
Rind et al. (1998)'s research suggests that this difference was present in 59 college studies on the issue, suggesting that males who claimed that their abuse was consensual were not significantly less well adjusted than the norm. Draucker (1992) had previously argued that sexual abuse against both boys and girls had similar effects, and that "initiation" was part of the myth that males are always the initiators of sex and cannot be abused. Crawford (1997) asserts that our socially repressed view of female and maternal sexuality conceals both the reality of female sexual pathologies and the damage done by female sexual abuse to children. Denov (2004) notes that the topic of female sex offending is one that is barely "beginning" to be studied and is a phenomenon that causes surprise, shock and utter revulsion even among counseling professionals.
A variety of behavioral impairments caused by child sexual abuse ( Complex post traumatic stress disorder) have been documented. [28] Changes in brain development and functioning have also been documented. This could explain the problems sexual abuse victims have with regulation of mood and other limbic functions, especially as exhibited in borderline personality disorder. Other studies also indicate that the psychological trauma caused by sexual abuse can lead to temporal lobe epilepsy, damage to the cerebellar vermis, along with reduced size of the corpus callosum. Children who had suffered only sexual abuse showed somewhat greater damage than children who had suffered only non-sexual physical abuse. [29] However, the most dramatic effects were seen in those who had suffered both sexual and physical abuse. Male and female victims were similarly affected. [12] More recent studies indicate that sexual or physical abuse in children can lead to the overexcitation of an undeveloped limbic system [13]. There is some evidence that traumatic stress causes notable changes in brain functioning and development [30] [31] Furthermore, children who have been sexually abused show measurable negative changes in brain functioning and development [32] However, a recent study by Mark Gilbertson have shown that trauma may not be the cause for damage but that preexisting riskfactors may increase the risk for developing PTSD. [33] This is supported by studies which show that those who have shown damage also have a history neurocognitive abnormalities. [34] An extensive literature review by Harvard Professor Richard McNally indicates that nongenetic explanations for changes in brain functioning are improbable. [35]
[End of text added for convenience by Dfpc 15:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC).]
(It should be noted that I, Voice of Britain, do NOT in any way support a vote on this subject at this point in time.)
RESTORE THE Version supported by RalphLender:
I added the following text to the Effect section: This section is undergoing frequent revision by more than one editor. Additional information may be found in the article history and on the talk page or by returning later. May 5, 2007. Please remove it a few days after the dispute is over, not before. Dfpc 15:42, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
I have filed an RfC regarding Voice of Britain's conduct on this page. Feel free to review this at [ [15]]. Note, that to be filed, it requires at least two editors to sign-off on it. If you have comments, plese put those on the RfC page. I have also notified Voice on his talk page. DPeterson talk 13:22, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
- Rind et al reviewed 59 STUDIES of thousands of college STUDENTS.
- If you want to discuss other aspect's of Gilbertson's finding, create another sentence. Your replacement does not convey the same information.
- I haven't read the sources for the other information you deleted, but I hope you have...
-Jillium
23:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Your edit says, "found a different cause-effect..." That is just not true, they make no statment about cause, effect and is a POV statement. These data indicate is factual and more accurate, so that is what should be stated. SamDavidson 00:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Regardless, there is not cause-effect relationship stated in the article... the accurate statement would be that they found an association...or, as I edited the line to remove the cause-effect statement, which is not true. SamDavidson 00:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Their study was not an experimental design and they make no statements about causation...only association. No where in the article do they state, "small hippocampal volume 'causes'...." That is your interpretation (original reserach). Therefore the best course of action is to just state what they state without the editorializing..."They found, "...." In fact, trauma has been found to be associated with smaller hippocampal volume in several studies of abuse, PTSD, and child sexual abuse. Let's just stick with direct quotes. However, if you feel strongly about this, as I said before, the proper course of action to resolve a content dispute would be to have a poll or file and RfC to get outside editors views. SamDavidson 00:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I think both have reasonable arguments, but I beleive my addition of Richard McNally adds the appropriate summating text for this area and thus complements the short version of the text about Gilbertsons study. Hopefully this solution is ok for everyone. Voice of Britain 10:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we please address Kendall-Tackett's findings individually rather than citing it with different studies and juxtaposing their results unspecifically? -Jillium 19:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I second that. Voice of Britain 20:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I've been doing other stuff, but what the heck is going on with this article? Don't answer that. For the time being I have restored the version of 17:02, 2 May 2007. I can say for certain that at least the first section (Effects of sexual abuse on children) has deteriorated markedly since then, particularly in giving WP:UNDUE weight to, ah, minority viewpoints. Some post-17:02, 2 May 2007 material may be OK and we can add it back in, but I think it's better to start from a secure baseline and go forward rather than trying to work our way back. Herostratus 20:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
There are however some undue weight towards negative effects, considering that about 50% have positive/neutral experiences (rind, 1998) the article has very little weight towards those cases. Some other points that should probably be clarified in the article is about clinical and non-clinical cases, we have alot of clinical research but generelize it to child sexual abuse in general. Voice of Britain 20:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Regardless, it's hardly disputable that a significant portion of children appear to be "asymptomatic" or indifferent to their abuse. (15%-40%, maybe?) The section is titled "Effects of sexual abuse on children," so this is very relevant. What problem exactly do you have, Herostratus? -Jillium 21:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I think Herostratus point is 'VERY' on target. SamDavidson 01:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
References are already in the quotation. Full citations don't detract from the article and they're helpful to the reader. Revert yourself, please. -Jillium 23:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I summarized the first. -Jillium 01:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Can someone explain this behavior? Voice of Britain 16:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The article is old and not current. What is the basis for stating Mcnally is the "most influential researcher in the field?" My review of the lit shows very little research by this individual regarding the effects of a child being molested by perpertrators, pedophiles, and others. DPeterson talk 17:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Gilbertson et al. found that nontrauma exposed monozygotic twins of subjects with combat-related PTSD had reduced hippocampal volume, which strongly suggests that reduced hippocampal volume may be a risk factor for the development of chronic PTSD, rather than a consequence of trauma exposure and PTSD.
That wasn't a quote, and (in my pdf version) the material it summarizes is on page seven, as the sentence itself says. The article already says that the Rind quote is taken from the abstract. -Jillium 19:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Your PDF does not matter. As said before, do not make this personal. just be sure if you are putting in a quote that you use "" "" and cite a page #. DPeterson talk 22:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
No, other editors don't have to verify anything. If you want to insert a quote you must use quotation marks and provide the citation and page number. That is Wikipedia form and policy. Therefore the only acceptable form is for you to use quotation marks (""), a verifiable citation and page number; otherwise it is not a quote and is not verifiable. DPeterson talk 00:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
In addition, please adhere to WP:CIV and avoid WP:NPA. Your snide or sarcastic comments seem inconsistent with both these policies and also inconsistent with WP:AGF DPeterson talk 00:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I was away visiting my parents so I couldn't reply, but I will now address the points which I can see in the earlier discussion.
I see now that the quote has been restored, good work everyone! Voice of Britain 19:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 9 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 9 |
I added statements and sources from two new academic works (from my university's Women's Studies collection) on female sex abuse of children. Please review these sources and discuss any changes before reverts. They raise some shocking issues that are rarely researched in the US and that need to be shown as part of the child sexual abuse picture somehow. 128.111.95.237 04:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I added citations to back these statements and other statements I added about female assailants and their victims in response to the fact templates. However, I need assistance with the correct form to use when adding citations. Would someone please provide me an example of a text citation used in the article so I can clean my citations up? This article is very confusing to me because I am unfamiliar with all the ways citations are being cited here. 128.111.95.245 01:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I got a question and it might seem to fit here. I just found out that my mom's brother's wife, "played" with her son's penis when changing him when he was little, my mom and grandma saw this countless times and were outraged. Does that count as a molest? Also, I do think it is possible that I was molested myself by her during a sleep over with my cousens (do to sleeping, I remmeber having my shorts on and when I woke up, I was only in my underwear). Should I turn her in, is she a risk to other people/childen? blackbox13000
Iv taken care of it, waited on hold almost wasnt worth it. I had the info on hand, but I wanted a second openion on it, I didnt really want to jump the gun, thanks blackbox13000
This topic deserves 3 articles, or at least 3 major subtopics:
Adolescent sexual abuse Child sexual abuse Sexual abuse laws
The first two are very distinct. Child sexual abuse is usually related to pedophilia, adolescent sexual abuse is not.
They have different psychological impacts on their victims.
Sexual abuse laws usually cover both.
I created a new topic False allegation of child sexual abuse. The article is still young and needs sources and non-US points of view. Will Beback recommended merging it with Child sexual abuse. Personally, I think it's big enough to stand on its own but would like some additional feedback. Dfpc 23:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
I would recommend great caution in merging the false allegations article into the child abuse article. The topic is highly political, and only a full and balanced consideration would do justice to the topic. It would be much better to elaborate on the issues of how reports are made, and how they are substantiated or unsubstantiated. In any case, the current false allegations entry is much too sketchy for a merge. Mmcjprof 05:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
In the 20:47, 2 May 2007 edit, RalphLender tagged the statement Some states have special rules when the two parties are close in age as unsourced. The very next sentence includes Iowa complete with a citation. Before I look up the laws in every state, how many state statutes are sufficient before this can be de-tagged? Barring a single source saying "several states have close in age exception," I think 2 more examples with citations should suffice. Comments? Dfpc 21:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I reverted to the version without the two unsourced statements. If there are citations to support the statements, please add those. Otherwise, the statements are conclusions and "original research" or opinions...neither of which have a place here. RalphLender talk 13:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I have nothing against any properly sourced information added, but I do have problems with information that isn't. This area is a political minfield so we should have sources of the highest quality that also easily can be checked. This is done by citing peer reviewed sources and writing proper references. All in best intentions. Voice of Britain 19:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Why are we deleting the entire external links section? And why do we call those deletions the "factually correct version"? [1] - Will Beback · † · 22:59, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I have restored the links. Didactic pronouncements in edit summaries are not a way to get on people's good side, for starters. Herostratus 23:59, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I say keep the external links. Unless a link is unrelated to the topic or its content is itself dubious or likely not fact-checked, it should stay. If you remove a reference, specify why each removed reference was removed in the edit summary or here. Examples: "removed reference acme, it's a personal blog written by a layman who appears to be shooting off at the mouth. Factually dubious." "Removed reference Child Abuse link refers to material no longer in this article." Note that "link is now an ad farm" or "link is defunct" should NOT be removed but should be flagged with "link no longer active as of May 2007" or some such. If possible, it should be replaced with a link from www.archive.org or another backup copy. Bottom line: If you can't justify removing it, keep it. Dfpc 04:29, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I restored the properly sourced version. You may feel the urge to revery but before you do, make sure that you add propoer cites for any claim you make so that I can verify the information. Cause that is exactly what I will do, and remove any that doesn't support your claims. Voice of Britain 23:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
(Unindent) Let's start with the second paragraph. Here is the source: http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/36/5/36. In what way does the text misrepresent the material in that source? - Will Beback · † · 00:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Whoever keeps deleting the material in this section is bordering on vandalism. The section as I restored it is appropriately sourced with material that meets the wikipedia standard of being verifiable...please do not delete it. RalphLender talk 15:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
You didn't even read the section. A verifiable source was added!!! DPeterson talk 12:55, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Alot of the referenses here are vague, they point to summaries which do not give enough information of the methods or results. I would like some clarity on the following subjects:
Seems out of context, what does it point to?
Which studies are refered to here? What do they say? The source only lead to a unreferenced summary which gives to little detail to be useful.
Same problem here, which are the "More recent studies" and exactly what do they say? Not enough information.
Page numbers should be added as it is the standard practice and extremely useful, especially when the text is so vague as this one.
Until these issues have been resolved, I have lifted out this section in its entire form here below:
This could explain the problems sexual abuse victims have with regulation of mood and other limbic functions, especially as exhibited in borderline personality disorder. Other studies also indicate that the psychological trauma caused by sexual abuse can lead to temporal lobe epilepsy, damage to the cerebellar vermis, along with reduced size of the corpus callosum. Children who had suffered only sexual abuse showed somewhat greater damage than children who had suffered only non-sexual physical abuse. However, the most dramatic effects were seen in those who had suffered both sexual and physical abuse. Male and female victims were similarly affected. [7] More recent studies indicate that sexual or physical abuse in children can lead to the overexcitation of an undeveloped limbic system [8]. Twin studies have suggested that the variations may be explained by genetics. The theory that stress is causing brain damage is implausible according to Harvard Professor Richard McNally. [6] However, there is substantal evidence that traumatic stress causes notable changes in brain functioning and development [7] [8]
In my opinion, these are surely interesting but not quite sharp enough to be in the effects section. They seem to belong elsewhere. Voice of Britain 10:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Please do not delete other's material...Better to Assume good faith and discuss 'proposed' changes here first and build consensus. I note that you have a long history of contentious editing and have been blocked before. Try to keep a cool head. If you do continue to merely delete material that is sourced (verifiable per wiki) you may find yourself blocked again. Please try to work to build consensus here. DPeterson talk 12:57, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Maybe other editors would like to chime in on the discussion below so that agreement can be reached. It may also be time to file an Rfc. What do others think? RalphLender talk 14:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Rather then have an edit war regarding the disputed content, I propose editors comment on the following section to be continued as the section on the effects of child abuse, rather than the version Voice continues to revert to. Please put your "vote" in the section below this.
'Effects of sexual abuse on children' Kendall-Tackett and others found that a wide range of psychological, emotional, physical, and social effects have been attributed to child sexual abuse, including anxiety, depression, poor self-esteem, somatic complains, complex post-traumatic stress disorder, emotional dysregulation, neurosis, post-traumatic stress disorder, and other more general dysfunctions such as sexualized behavior, school/learning problems, behavior problems and destructive behavior. [9], [10] Furthermore, children who have been sexually abused show measurable negative changes in brain functioning and development [11]
It has been suggested that young children who are abused sexually by adult females may incur double traumatization due to the widespread denial of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse by non-abusing parents, professional caregivers and the general public.
[12] Most men formerly involved in woman-boy sexual relations, however, evaluate their experience as positive upon reflection.
[13]
Wakefield and Underwager (1991) note the difference between CSA experiences of males and females, where more males than females report the experience as neutral or positive, saying that "It may be that women perceive such experiences as sexual violation, while men perceive them as sexual initiation." Rind et al. (1998)'s research suggests that this difference was present in 59 college studies on the issue, suggesting that males who claimed that their abuse was consensual were not significantly less well adjusted than the norm. Draucker (1992) had previously argued that sexual abuse against both boys and girls had similar effects, and that "initiation" was part of the myth that males are always the initiators of sex and cannot be abused. Crawford (1997) asserts that our socially repressed view of female and maternal sexuality conceals both the reality of female sexual pathologies and the damage done by female sexual abuse to children. Denov (2004) notes that the topic of female sex offending is one that is barely "beginning" to be studied and is a phenomenon that causes surprise, shock and utter revulsion even among counseling professionals.
A variety of behavioral impairments caused by child sexual abuse ( Complex post traumatic stress disorder) have been documented. [14] Changes in brain development and functioning have also been documented. This could explain the problems sexual abuse victims have with regulation of mood and other limbic functions, especially as exhibited in borderline personality disorder. Other studies also indicate that the psychological trauma caused by sexual abuse can lead to temporal lobe epilepsy, damage to the cerebellar vermis, along with reduced size of the corpus callosum. Children who had suffered only sexual abuse showed somewhat greater damage than children who had suffered only non-sexual physical abuse. [15] However, the most dramatic effects were seen in those who had suffered both sexual and physical abuse. Male and female victims were similarly affected. [10] More recent studies indicate that sexual or physical abuse in children can lead to the overexcitation of an undeveloped limbic system [11]. Twin studies have suggested that the variations may be explained by genetics. The theory that stress is causing brain damage is implausible accordig to Harvard Professor Richard McNally. [16] However, there is substantal evidence that traumatic stress causes notable changes in brain functioning and development [17] [18] Furthermore, children who have been sexually abused show measurable negative changes in brain functioning and development. [19]
[This section added for convenience by Dfpc 15:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC) based on a recent post by Voice of Britain. If it is incorrect, please replace it.]
'Effects of sexual abuse on children' Kendall-Tackett and others found that a wide range of psychological, emotional, physical, and social effects have been attributed to child sexual abuse, including
anxiety,
depression, poor self-esteem, somatic complains,
complex post-traumatic stress disorder,
emotional dysregulation,
neurosis,
post-traumatic stress disorder, and other more general dysfunctions such as sexualized behavior, school/learning problems, behavior problems and destructive behavior.
[20]
[21] They also found that a large number of children where symptom free and more well adjusted than the clinical control groups.Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page).
A 1998 meta-analysis of studies using college samples by Rind et al. suggested other causes for the previously cited relationship: [22]
Meta-analyses revealed that students with CSA were, on average, slightly less well adjusted than controls. However, this poorer adjustment could not be attributed to CSA because family environment (FE) was consistently confounded with CSA, FE explained considerably more adjustment variance than CSA, and CSA-adjustment relations generally became nonsignificant when studies controlled for FE.
It has been suggested that young children who are abused sexually by adult females may incur double traumatization due to the widespread denial of female-perpetrated child sexual abuse by non-abusing parents, professional caregivers and the general public. [23] Most men formerly involved in woman-boy sexual relations, however, evaluate their experience as positive upon reflection. [24] Several studies have shown that children may experience consensual child sexual abuse as positive. [25] [26] [27]
Wakefield and Underwager (1991) note the difference between CSA experiences of males and females, where more males than females report the experience as neutral or positive, saying that "It may be that women perceive such experiences as sexual violation, while men perceive them as sexual initiation."
Rind et al. (1998)'s research suggests that this difference was present in 59 college studies on the issue, suggesting that males who claimed that their abuse was consensual were not significantly less well adjusted than the norm. Draucker (1992) had previously argued that sexual abuse against both boys and girls had similar effects, and that "initiation" was part of the myth that males are always the initiators of sex and cannot be abused. Crawford (1997) asserts that our socially repressed view of female and maternal sexuality conceals both the reality of female sexual pathologies and the damage done by female sexual abuse to children. Denov (2004) notes that the topic of female sex offending is one that is barely "beginning" to be studied and is a phenomenon that causes surprise, shock and utter revulsion even among counseling professionals.
A variety of behavioral impairments caused by child sexual abuse ( Complex post traumatic stress disorder) have been documented. [28] Changes in brain development and functioning have also been documented. This could explain the problems sexual abuse victims have with regulation of mood and other limbic functions, especially as exhibited in borderline personality disorder. Other studies also indicate that the psychological trauma caused by sexual abuse can lead to temporal lobe epilepsy, damage to the cerebellar vermis, along with reduced size of the corpus callosum. Children who had suffered only sexual abuse showed somewhat greater damage than children who had suffered only non-sexual physical abuse. [29] However, the most dramatic effects were seen in those who had suffered both sexual and physical abuse. Male and female victims were similarly affected. [12] More recent studies indicate that sexual or physical abuse in children can lead to the overexcitation of an undeveloped limbic system [13]. There is some evidence that traumatic stress causes notable changes in brain functioning and development [30] [31] Furthermore, children who have been sexually abused show measurable negative changes in brain functioning and development [32] However, a recent study by Mark Gilbertson have shown that trauma may not be the cause for damage but that preexisting riskfactors may increase the risk for developing PTSD. [33] This is supported by studies which show that those who have shown damage also have a history neurocognitive abnormalities. [34] An extensive literature review by Harvard Professor Richard McNally indicates that nongenetic explanations for changes in brain functioning are improbable. [35]
[End of text added for convenience by Dfpc 15:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC).]
(It should be noted that I, Voice of Britain, do NOT in any way support a vote on this subject at this point in time.)
RESTORE THE Version supported by RalphLender:
I added the following text to the Effect section: This section is undergoing frequent revision by more than one editor. Additional information may be found in the article history and on the talk page or by returning later. May 5, 2007. Please remove it a few days after the dispute is over, not before. Dfpc 15:42, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
I have filed an RfC regarding Voice of Britain's conduct on this page. Feel free to review this at [ [15]]. Note, that to be filed, it requires at least two editors to sign-off on it. If you have comments, plese put those on the RfC page. I have also notified Voice on his talk page. DPeterson talk 13:22, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
- Rind et al reviewed 59 STUDIES of thousands of college STUDENTS.
- If you want to discuss other aspect's of Gilbertson's finding, create another sentence. Your replacement does not convey the same information.
- I haven't read the sources for the other information you deleted, but I hope you have...
-Jillium
23:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Your edit says, "found a different cause-effect..." That is just not true, they make no statment about cause, effect and is a POV statement. These data indicate is factual and more accurate, so that is what should be stated. SamDavidson 00:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Regardless, there is not cause-effect relationship stated in the article... the accurate statement would be that they found an association...or, as I edited the line to remove the cause-effect statement, which is not true. SamDavidson 00:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Their study was not an experimental design and they make no statements about causation...only association. No where in the article do they state, "small hippocampal volume 'causes'...." That is your interpretation (original reserach). Therefore the best course of action is to just state what they state without the editorializing..."They found, "...." In fact, trauma has been found to be associated with smaller hippocampal volume in several studies of abuse, PTSD, and child sexual abuse. Let's just stick with direct quotes. However, if you feel strongly about this, as I said before, the proper course of action to resolve a content dispute would be to have a poll or file and RfC to get outside editors views. SamDavidson 00:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I think both have reasonable arguments, but I beleive my addition of Richard McNally adds the appropriate summating text for this area and thus complements the short version of the text about Gilbertsons study. Hopefully this solution is ok for everyone. Voice of Britain 10:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we please address Kendall-Tackett's findings individually rather than citing it with different studies and juxtaposing their results unspecifically? -Jillium 19:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I second that. Voice of Britain 20:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I've been doing other stuff, but what the heck is going on with this article? Don't answer that. For the time being I have restored the version of 17:02, 2 May 2007. I can say for certain that at least the first section (Effects of sexual abuse on children) has deteriorated markedly since then, particularly in giving WP:UNDUE weight to, ah, minority viewpoints. Some post-17:02, 2 May 2007 material may be OK and we can add it back in, but I think it's better to start from a secure baseline and go forward rather than trying to work our way back. Herostratus 20:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
There are however some undue weight towards negative effects, considering that about 50% have positive/neutral experiences (rind, 1998) the article has very little weight towards those cases. Some other points that should probably be clarified in the article is about clinical and non-clinical cases, we have alot of clinical research but generelize it to child sexual abuse in general. Voice of Britain 20:23, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Regardless, it's hardly disputable that a significant portion of children appear to be "asymptomatic" or indifferent to their abuse. (15%-40%, maybe?) The section is titled "Effects of sexual abuse on children," so this is very relevant. What problem exactly do you have, Herostratus? -Jillium 21:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I think Herostratus point is 'VERY' on target. SamDavidson 01:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
References are already in the quotation. Full citations don't detract from the article and they're helpful to the reader. Revert yourself, please. -Jillium 23:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I summarized the first. -Jillium 01:22, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Can someone explain this behavior? Voice of Britain 16:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The article is old and not current. What is the basis for stating Mcnally is the "most influential researcher in the field?" My review of the lit shows very little research by this individual regarding the effects of a child being molested by perpertrators, pedophiles, and others. DPeterson talk 17:57, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Gilbertson et al. found that nontrauma exposed monozygotic twins of subjects with combat-related PTSD had reduced hippocampal volume, which strongly suggests that reduced hippocampal volume may be a risk factor for the development of chronic PTSD, rather than a consequence of trauma exposure and PTSD.
That wasn't a quote, and (in my pdf version) the material it summarizes is on page seven, as the sentence itself says. The article already says that the Rind quote is taken from the abstract. -Jillium 19:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Your PDF does not matter. As said before, do not make this personal. just be sure if you are putting in a quote that you use "" "" and cite a page #. DPeterson talk 22:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
No, other editors don't have to verify anything. If you want to insert a quote you must use quotation marks and provide the citation and page number. That is Wikipedia form and policy. Therefore the only acceptable form is for you to use quotation marks (""), a verifiable citation and page number; otherwise it is not a quote and is not verifiable. DPeterson talk 00:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
In addition, please adhere to WP:CIV and avoid WP:NPA. Your snide or sarcastic comments seem inconsistent with both these policies and also inconsistent with WP:AGF DPeterson talk 00:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I was away visiting my parents so I couldn't reply, but I will now address the points which I can see in the earlier discussion.
I see now that the quote has been restored, good work everyone! Voice of Britain 19:05, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
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