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The topic of Chicano English brings up the question:
Do each of the other types of Hispanic Americans also have their own dialects of American English? Gringo300 ( talk) 06:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Can Chicano English be regional and not just associated with Mexican Americans? Can people of other races living in Mexican-American neighborhoods for example, speak this variety of English? Bibliography Fought, C. 1. (2003). Chicano English in context. Palgrave Macmillan. Galindo, D. L. (1995). Language attitudes toward Spanish and English varieties: a Chicano perspective. Hispanic Journal Of Behavioral Sciences, 17(1), 77-99 Penfield, J. (1989). Social and linguistic parameters of prosody in Chicano English. In (pp. 387-401). Santa Ana A., O. (1993). Chicano English and the nature of the Chicano language setting. Hispanic Journal Of Behavioral Sciences, 15(1), 3-35. Teschner, R. V. (1977). A collection of research studies in Chicano linguistics. Bilingual Review, 4(1/2), 138-140. Janet-L-0 ( talk) 00:52, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
What does 'carnal' (-oye carnal) mean?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jondel ( talk • contribs)
George Lopez does not speak Chicano English (if you read the article carefully). He speaks Spanish-accented English. He is born in the States so he definitely does not speak Spanish-accented English. That`s one of the myths about people like him and about Chicano English. You should read some scientific literature about it, for example "Chicano English in Context" by Carmen Fought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.240.135.159 ( talk) 19:22, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
How come there are so many references listed for a page that is essentially a stub? Strange. I'm going to see if I can find the referenced books in my uni's library, and perhaps start fleshing out an actual article here. Reydeyo ( talk) 23:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
This section is minorly incorrect. Off the top of my head I can think of two isolated examples ('red' and 'pared') and an entire class (nouns ending in '-dad') that are final -d. Perhaps it should be altered to discuss deletion of final consonant clusters? This is all it demonstrates anyway. ClockwerkMao ( talk) 17:27, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
...that it should be deleted.
Or at least get it right.
"Chicano English" is not a dialect of American English used by Chicanos. The subject of this article could be more accurately described as a regional dialect for a subset of people or as a dialect of American English spoken by Chicanos in California, and even more specifically southern California. As the article has already pointed out, "Chicano English" is not spoken by the "Chicanos" in parts of Texas.
There is a sizable "Chicano" population in industrialized northern US cities like Chicago and the "Chicanos" there do not speak this cholo/low-rider/zoot suit/southern California dialect. Possibly because the Mexican populations that ended immigrating to industrialized northern US cities took jobs in the local factories and worked among non-Spanish speakers (many also recent immigrants from Europe) which forced the recent immigrant groups (Mexican and European) to acquire at least a working grasp of English to communicate with each other and consequently they assimilated faster, often within the first generation.
This is so racist ( talk) 01:07, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Apparently this merger is controversial, since it (plus also the info I added to this page) was reverted by first-time user JoinerFact; see my last edit on Chicano English. So, here are some of my references for why "New Mexican English" is a sub-variety of Chicano English:
The nature of the spoken English brought into these areas was different, happening at different periods of time (much later in NM despite it being more easterly) and being brought by different groups of native English speakers (with that brought to NM being far more homogenous; the California Gold Rush brought everyone and their dog, from everywhere, all at once (including the first of several waves of Spanish-speakers from south of Mexico), while NM was mostly gradually Anglo settled, by ranchers, farmers, and the like, from the western South (TX, OK, LA, AR) and from the Midwest (KS, MO, IA, NE, etc.) The nature of the Spanish already spoken in the two areas also differed, having been long geographically separated, with the Californian variety coming into commingling contact with English far sooner, and the NM variety being very rustic and traditional, uninfluenced much by later innovation and external influence for quite some time (many of the "old families" in n. NM and s. CO date to the Spanish Colonial period, but this is not true of much of the Spanish-speaking substrate of CA, which has seen a constant churn of northward immigration from Mexico. Many of the original Nuevo México families were Jewish, descendants of the Conversos who emerged from the Inquisition. Entire books have been written about this. (While they were not speaking Ladino a.k.a. Judaeo-Spanish (which mostly developed in Spanish territories east of Spain), they were not speaking high Castilian Spanish, either. The nature of the indigenous languages is also completely different (mostly wholly separate language families in CA and NM), with NM Spanish and later English adopting more indigenous loanwords than the CA varieties (and of course different ones than in CA). CA has also seen a very, very substantial influx of non-Mexican Hispanics/Latinos while NM has not, strongly affecting CA's Spanish and its Spanish's influence on its English. And so on.
To address the numbered points above:
1, 2, 3, 4 ...
|
---|
|
A better solution would be to re-title and re-scope New Mexico English (presently trying to be about a purported dialect that has resisted efforts to source it clearly and consistently as such) into English in New Mexico, which is a much better-sourceable topic, and which can cover ideas about what constitutes regional or local "dialects proper" as subtopics. The problem with the article as it stands is POV and OR aimed at focusing on English in the state as a named dialect, when the evidence more properly leads us to treat English in the region, centered on the modern US state, as a historical, broad topic, and inside of which at least two dialects of differing sorts can be distinguished (urban and suburban Burqueño around Albuquerque, and what is more broadly meant by "New Mexico English" as a dialect, across the top 2/3 or so of the state (including NMCE as an ethnic subdialect well into s. CO). There may or may not be enough material to properly source a separate dialect in the south, one that is more like SW TX Eng. in detail and historically (and parallels So. Cal Eng. developmentally), with strong, modern influence from recent Mexican immigration (which has also influenced Burqueño, but barely touched [N]NMCE. In short: it's a viable historical language-use article with the sources we already have, but as a linguistic dialect article, it will necessarily cover a dialect continuum over the much of the former NM Territory, and for which we don't yet have enough source material. By changing it to focus on the historical aspects, the dialectal ones can be added in more detail over time. Doing it the other way around is raising too many problems and too much desire to undo the article. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:51, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
{{
Main}}
-linked sections on [N]NMCE and Tejano that point to the relevant sections at
English in New Mexico and
Texan English. Though I guess that also means we need to reorganize
New Mexican English into
English in New Mexico first with a section on Northern New Mexico Chicano English, or something to this effect. [insert headache]. CE is best approached as political and cultural topic, like the
Celtic language revival in the
Celtic fringe (not sure we have an article on that under another, non-redlinked name, but we certainly should, and the relevant rootstock material is now in
Category:Celtic language revival); the linguistic information would mostly remain in the language/dialect specific articles like
Irish language,
Manx language (which has also been classified before as a dialect of Irish), etc. Those are essentially analogous to
California English,
New Mexico English/
English in New Mexico, etc. —
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:59, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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One thing that should be added to this article is the way Chicano English is perceived by non speakers, like the stereotypes people have about Chicano English speakers.
Rfilippone13 (
talk) 18:27, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
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I have just modified 2 external links on Chicano English. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I do think more needs to be added to the phonology section, here is a link that could help with that https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057%2F9780230510012_4 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordansanchez1 ( talk • contribs) 04:12, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
I know a lot about this accent, since I have an Hispanic background and hail from Southern California, and the phonology section is not based in reality. I even get the feeling that the major editor of that section has never even heard the dialect/accent themselves. It seems to be based on a preconception of an accent of someone who is in some way related to an Hispanic national. Articles like this need to be razed and begun again from scratch. Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the inclination... at least not currently. Lighthead þ 19:14, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Janet-L-0,
Dinosfan. Peer reviewers:
Keeterz1,
Dinosfan,
Jordansanchez1.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 18:55, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Rfilippone13.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 17:22, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
The topic of Chicano English brings up the question:
Do each of the other types of Hispanic Americans also have their own dialects of American English? Gringo300 ( talk) 06:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Can Chicano English be regional and not just associated with Mexican Americans? Can people of other races living in Mexican-American neighborhoods for example, speak this variety of English? Bibliography Fought, C. 1. (2003). Chicano English in context. Palgrave Macmillan. Galindo, D. L. (1995). Language attitudes toward Spanish and English varieties: a Chicano perspective. Hispanic Journal Of Behavioral Sciences, 17(1), 77-99 Penfield, J. (1989). Social and linguistic parameters of prosody in Chicano English. In (pp. 387-401). Santa Ana A., O. (1993). Chicano English and the nature of the Chicano language setting. Hispanic Journal Of Behavioral Sciences, 15(1), 3-35. Teschner, R. V. (1977). A collection of research studies in Chicano linguistics. Bilingual Review, 4(1/2), 138-140. Janet-L-0 ( talk) 00:52, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
What does 'carnal' (-oye carnal) mean?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jondel ( talk • contribs)
George Lopez does not speak Chicano English (if you read the article carefully). He speaks Spanish-accented English. He is born in the States so he definitely does not speak Spanish-accented English. That`s one of the myths about people like him and about Chicano English. You should read some scientific literature about it, for example "Chicano English in Context" by Carmen Fought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.240.135.159 ( talk) 19:22, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
How come there are so many references listed for a page that is essentially a stub? Strange. I'm going to see if I can find the referenced books in my uni's library, and perhaps start fleshing out an actual article here. Reydeyo ( talk) 23:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
This section is minorly incorrect. Off the top of my head I can think of two isolated examples ('red' and 'pared') and an entire class (nouns ending in '-dad') that are final -d. Perhaps it should be altered to discuss deletion of final consonant clusters? This is all it demonstrates anyway. ClockwerkMao ( talk) 17:27, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
...that it should be deleted.
Or at least get it right.
"Chicano English" is not a dialect of American English used by Chicanos. The subject of this article could be more accurately described as a regional dialect for a subset of people or as a dialect of American English spoken by Chicanos in California, and even more specifically southern California. As the article has already pointed out, "Chicano English" is not spoken by the "Chicanos" in parts of Texas.
There is a sizable "Chicano" population in industrialized northern US cities like Chicago and the "Chicanos" there do not speak this cholo/low-rider/zoot suit/southern California dialect. Possibly because the Mexican populations that ended immigrating to industrialized northern US cities took jobs in the local factories and worked among non-Spanish speakers (many also recent immigrants from Europe) which forced the recent immigrant groups (Mexican and European) to acquire at least a working grasp of English to communicate with each other and consequently they assimilated faster, often within the first generation.
This is so racist ( talk) 01:07, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
Apparently this merger is controversial, since it (plus also the info I added to this page) was reverted by first-time user JoinerFact; see my last edit on Chicano English. So, here are some of my references for why "New Mexican English" is a sub-variety of Chicano English:
The nature of the spoken English brought into these areas was different, happening at different periods of time (much later in NM despite it being more easterly) and being brought by different groups of native English speakers (with that brought to NM being far more homogenous; the California Gold Rush brought everyone and their dog, from everywhere, all at once (including the first of several waves of Spanish-speakers from south of Mexico), while NM was mostly gradually Anglo settled, by ranchers, farmers, and the like, from the western South (TX, OK, LA, AR) and from the Midwest (KS, MO, IA, NE, etc.) The nature of the Spanish already spoken in the two areas also differed, having been long geographically separated, with the Californian variety coming into commingling contact with English far sooner, and the NM variety being very rustic and traditional, uninfluenced much by later innovation and external influence for quite some time (many of the "old families" in n. NM and s. CO date to the Spanish Colonial period, but this is not true of much of the Spanish-speaking substrate of CA, which has seen a constant churn of northward immigration from Mexico. Many of the original Nuevo México families were Jewish, descendants of the Conversos who emerged from the Inquisition. Entire books have been written about this. (While they were not speaking Ladino a.k.a. Judaeo-Spanish (which mostly developed in Spanish territories east of Spain), they were not speaking high Castilian Spanish, either. The nature of the indigenous languages is also completely different (mostly wholly separate language families in CA and NM), with NM Spanish and later English adopting more indigenous loanwords than the CA varieties (and of course different ones than in CA). CA has also seen a very, very substantial influx of non-Mexican Hispanics/Latinos while NM has not, strongly affecting CA's Spanish and its Spanish's influence on its English. And so on.
To address the numbered points above:
1, 2, 3, 4 ...
|
---|
|
A better solution would be to re-title and re-scope New Mexico English (presently trying to be about a purported dialect that has resisted efforts to source it clearly and consistently as such) into English in New Mexico, which is a much better-sourceable topic, and which can cover ideas about what constitutes regional or local "dialects proper" as subtopics. The problem with the article as it stands is POV and OR aimed at focusing on English in the state as a named dialect, when the evidence more properly leads us to treat English in the region, centered on the modern US state, as a historical, broad topic, and inside of which at least two dialects of differing sorts can be distinguished (urban and suburban Burqueño around Albuquerque, and what is more broadly meant by "New Mexico English" as a dialect, across the top 2/3 or so of the state (including NMCE as an ethnic subdialect well into s. CO). There may or may not be enough material to properly source a separate dialect in the south, one that is more like SW TX Eng. in detail and historically (and parallels So. Cal Eng. developmentally), with strong, modern influence from recent Mexican immigration (which has also influenced Burqueño, but barely touched [N]NMCE. In short: it's a viable historical language-use article with the sources we already have, but as a linguistic dialect article, it will necessarily cover a dialect continuum over the much of the former NM Territory, and for which we don't yet have enough source material. By changing it to focus on the historical aspects, the dialectal ones can be added in more detail over time. Doing it the other way around is raising too many problems and too much desire to undo the article. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:51, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
{{
Main}}
-linked sections on [N]NMCE and Tejano that point to the relevant sections at
English in New Mexico and
Texan English. Though I guess that also means we need to reorganize
New Mexican English into
English in New Mexico first with a section on Northern New Mexico Chicano English, or something to this effect. [insert headache]. CE is best approached as political and cultural topic, like the
Celtic language revival in the
Celtic fringe (not sure we have an article on that under another, non-redlinked name, but we certainly should, and the relevant rootstock material is now in
Category:Celtic language revival); the linguistic information would mostly remain in the language/dialect specific articles like
Irish language,
Manx language (which has also been classified before as a dialect of Irish), etc. Those are essentially analogous to
California English,
New Mexico English/
English in New Mexico, etc. —
SMcCandlish ☺
☏
¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 08:59, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Chicano English. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:12, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
One thing that should be added to this article is the way Chicano English is perceived by non speakers, like the stereotypes people have about Chicano English speakers.
Rfilippone13 (
talk) 18:27, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Chicano English. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I do think more needs to be added to the phonology section, here is a link that could help with that https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057%2F9780230510012_4 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordansanchez1 ( talk • contribs) 04:12, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
I know a lot about this accent, since I have an Hispanic background and hail from Southern California, and the phonology section is not based in reality. I even get the feeling that the major editor of that section has never even heard the dialect/accent themselves. It seems to be based on a preconception of an accent of someone who is in some way related to an Hispanic national. Articles like this need to be razed and begun again from scratch. Unfortunately, I have neither the time nor the inclination... at least not currently. Lighthead þ 19:14, 6 August 2022 (UTC)