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This is quite a good article, some suggestions:
Robert Schwartz 128.84.152.250 ( talk) 03:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Can someone render "Be Prepared", the Scout Motto, into Cherokee script? Thanks! Chris 03:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have any Wiki-appropriate information on what Sequoyah might have based the symbols on? What was his inspiration? I note no apparent visual link between symbols having the same vowel, or symbols having the same consonants, making each symbol seem to be purely arbitrary in form. Did Sequoyah in fact just make up each individual symbol, or was there some sort of systematic approach he used, perhaps as described in the Jamo design portion of the article on the Korean Hangul writing system?
Cheers, Erik Anderson, 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
A lot of the non-Latin looking letters resemble Georgian (Kartvelian) and Armenian. Some link is possible or just a coincidence?
Yes, could someone please find some sources on this and get them in here? It's very interesting. I'm actually an expert on writing systems, hieroglyphic ones in particular, and from what I've been reading it appears he was illiterate, made up a syllabary, then modified it for printing. In all other cases of syllabary-creation, each glyph represents a picture of something which is associated with a word, the first syllable of which is used as the value for the glyph. But maybe Saquoyah just chose or made random glyphs which were later modified so that they ended up looking more like Roman, Cyrilic, Greek etc. By the way, this was common in the 1800's and probably before : early typefaces for Ethiopic make it look more like Roman than it actually did. Casting the lead stamps for printing was apparently cumbersome to this effect, I can imagine.
But it is not unusual that modern users of the glyphs care nothing for their origin or etymology : most writing systems are learned like this, throughout time and space, even Roman. Although the origin of the Roman Alphabet itself is now known, this information has not been incorporated into the American curricula; not to mention Hindi, Arabic, Chinese*, Japanese*, Korean*, etc., although the *-ed incorporate some limited etymology and/or folk etymology. And it should not be like this, but that humans are lazy and that archaeology is a young discipline : the origins of these writing systems was unknown before about 1800 and we continue to use the pedagogical methods from then.
I haven't seen the original syllabaries of Saquoyah, but the glyphs as we now know them are extremely abstract. Without something in the literature from Saquoyah or some tradition originating with him, matching such glyphs to words or pictures in the Cherokee iconography would be, well, interesting, yes, but tenuous, that is to say, uncertain.
I would like to call for a "wikipedia article ring" including such "scripts" or "proto-scripts" as Cherokee as well as the Alaskan Script, the Micmac Hieroglyphic (actually a mneumonic system, per Smithsonian's research and my investigations as well), and other such Native American and also non-Native American but, say, 1500-present made-up writing systems, like Cree Syllabary, Caroline Script, these Vai and Vah Syllabaries, Shorthand systems and Deserta Script etc. All of thees have relationships one to the other and each sheds much light on the other. For a good example, if you examine the history and details of Micmac Hieroglyphic and Cree Syllabary, you will find that even if Saquoyah was illiterate, he employed concepts which were at the time floating around, especially in missionary circles - Indian writing, logographic, syllabic writing systems.
Also, it seems likely from my reading and experience that if Saquoyah made the glyphs based on acrophonic logograms, he would have tried to get the word out so that it would make learning them easier. And are there any cursive forms?
Dwarfkingdom ( talk) 20:34, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
In this same section, there is a link to a version of the "original" and it looks to me, based on all my experience with writing and pseudo-writing, that he just made up random squiggles similar to English Roman cursive. However, in Micmac Hieroglyphic and Shorthand systems, such glyphs could be assigned to single words (being in Shorthand idiomatic combinations of letters). Most people, unexperienced with writing systems, might think that people could just make up jibberish and assign it a value like "cat", but this is almost never what happens. Originally, all glyphs are pictures of things. In which case, Cherokee Syllabary makes useful my recent work on Codex Seraphinus and Voynich Manuscript and Asemic Writing. Analysis needs to be done on the original glyphs : most likely, he worked hard that there was little or no "overlap" between glyphs : none look too similar to another.
It seems just like what the traditional story says, that he was illiterate and had seen (English cursive) and so made up similar looking stuff thinking that was how it was done. Because apparently he didn't know how any writing system worked or its origins, because right off the bat he invented a script where all the glyphs look very similar, whereas in their original forms (consider Hindi, its Brahmi, and Proto-Semitic) each glyphs was at first a very distinct, recongizable picture, then later a still very distinct abstraction, and then in modern times a barely distinguishable futher abstraction.
The "for printing" version is much better in terms of more economical shapes, but still, the Roman (uppercase but not lower-case) alphabet is superior to Saquoyah's "for-print" syllabary. True Abjads are more economical than Alphabets which are more economical than Syllabaries. The Cree Syllabary is even better than this, though it was inspired by the Cherokee Syllabary's success. But using or making writing system is not entirely about economy.
So can anyone find something in the literature to this effect, some scholarly or learned opinion for this article? I'll be on the look-out. I recently looked it up in Daniels and didn't find anything terribly insightful, that I can remember, anyway.
All this brings up that there's a big leap between the "original" syllabaries and the "for-print" versions : because Saquoyah made up his alphabet mostly whole-cloth, it has a complicated creation process which I really think the Wikipedia article (and scholarly literature), should reflect. Compare the creation process for Cree Syllabary and Deseret Alphabet.
Dwarfkingdom ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:42, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
This is a very detailed article: so great!
This is very nitty gritty, and this isn't necessarily you're doing, but I've noticed that the article says that there are 85 syllables or characters repeatedly throughout. Repetition is not bad because people might immediately skip to different sections if they're looking for specifics, but it's a little much.
Also, can you understand what dummy vowels are in the description section? I was a little confused as far as their purpose and what they look like or where they show up.
You also included a lot of the history of the syllabary and I liked everything that you included and the organization of this information. However, can you expand on the Sequoyah story a little? Maybe describe which written works he looked at while forming the syllabary for 12 years if the information is available.
Good job! -- Rda2512 ( talk) 04:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I remember reading in a children's book ( Childcraft?) that an early version of the syllabary, written on bark, was burned by other Cherokees suspecting the "talking leaves" of sorcery, or something like that. Googling, I see references to his wife burning down his workshop to try to end his work on them. Is there a reliable source saying what happened, or just conflicting semi-reliable ones?-- SarekOfVulcan ( talk) 17:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
I have added a simple table that lists the transliterated and Unicode versions of the syllabary. The current Unicode chart is in code-point order, which I doubt will be useful to many people trying to study the syllabary. At least the version I've added can be more or less read (and cut-and-pasted). I'm no guru with Wiki syntax, so it's currently one unwieldy column. It would be great if the whole thing could be floated left, for instance, but I'm not sure how to do that. babbage ( talk) 21:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Wha did the 86th character look like, and what was its sound value? 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 23:38, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Interestingly, a syllabary chart published by the Cherokee Nation shows the 86th character representing the "mv" sound: [5]. Kaldari ( talk) 05:16, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Does anyone know--and can someone post--if the Cherokee syllabary, as we see it in the article, is designed in such a way that the serifs and thicker/thinner edges are actually part of the actual language, or is simply the "serif" version of it, such that a sans-serif version of the Cherokee syllabary exists as well? -- 66.92.0.62 ( talk) 08:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
This would be surprising, but it isn't linked in the "languages" tab. Unfortunately, I wouldn't know how to find the article on chr:, since I don't actually read the language... -- megA ( talk) 15:26, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
We require some proper evidence for the assertion in note 2. "The character Ꮩ do is shown upside-down in the chart, and in some fonts. It should be oriented in the same way as the Latin letter V." It displays like the Greek capital letter lambda Λ in all the Unicode fonts that I've come across so far. Likewise in both Chrome and Firefox browsers. DFH ( talk) 21:07, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
There should be something on the lowercase version of the syllabary, recently accepted by Unicode according to this blogpost: https://edward32blog.wordpress.com/2014/04/10/unicode-accepts-cherokee-lower-case-syllabary-character-set/
The encoding suggestion can be seen in this pdf: http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2014/14064-n4537-cherokee.pdf
Although it may still be on the drawing board (I don't know how long it takes for a unicode block to become standard), I think it would be a great improvement of the page to have some information on, for example, the handwriting of the Cherokee syllabary, and the history of typesetting it with two different point sizes, which lead the Unicode Consortium to accept a lowercase character set into their standardization process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.225.121.137 ( talk) 13:37, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
I have now put it in the "later development" section, but if anyone knows more about it, maybe it could have its own section. 80.71.135.96 ( talk) 21:55, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Is the Braille system truly a syllabary, or simply Consonants and Vowels? Also, is "crontracted" a word or a typo? Pete unseth ( talk) 12:58, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Unlike Canadian Aboriginal syllabics, I have not seen if anyone else ever tried to make this writing system work for any other languages, yeah I read on here about the possible influence this script may have had on one in Africa, not another one in the U.S. much less the Americas?! How could that be? -- sion8 talk page 06:19, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
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§ Syllabary shown using Unicode text contains the sentence
The "character" in the parentheses is a black block for me; I guess it is presented here in a font I don't have, unlike the other Unicode representations of the characters. This makes it impossible to tell what character is meant, even when referring to the previous section where the script is shown with images. Please identify the character in some other way, like by using an image. -- Thnidu ( talk) 13:56, 9 June 2017 (UTC) Thnidu ( talk) 13:56, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
It would be useful to add images (instead of only unicode) for the complete syllabry, so that we can see the characters without having the requisite font sets. -- 67.70.33.184 ( talk) 07:27, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
I'm trying to figure out what the section Numerals is really describing. If 504 is written with characters for 5, 100, and 4, obviously, it is not a standard positional notation system. Is it, in fact, a specialized set of characters used to write the spoken names of number in the Cherokee language, rather like writing like "five hundred and four" in English? If so, are they "numerals" in any meaningful way? ("Five hundred and four" - i.e., that sequence of 18 letters and 3 spaces - are a valid notation for the number 504, but would hardly qualify as numerals.)-- Nø ( talk) 12:44, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
The contents of the Gadugi (typeface) page were merged into Cherokee syllabary on 3 March 2024. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This article was the subject of an educational assignment that ended on 2008 fall semester. Further details are available here. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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It is requested that a diagram or diagrams be
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This is quite a good article, some suggestions:
Robert Schwartz 128.84.152.250 ( talk) 03:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Can someone render "Be Prepared", the Scout Motto, into Cherokee script? Thanks! Chris 03:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have any Wiki-appropriate information on what Sequoyah might have based the symbols on? What was his inspiration? I note no apparent visual link between symbols having the same vowel, or symbols having the same consonants, making each symbol seem to be purely arbitrary in form. Did Sequoyah in fact just make up each individual symbol, or was there some sort of systematic approach he used, perhaps as described in the Jamo design portion of the article on the Korean Hangul writing system?
Cheers, Erik Anderson, 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
A lot of the non-Latin looking letters resemble Georgian (Kartvelian) and Armenian. Some link is possible or just a coincidence?
Yes, could someone please find some sources on this and get them in here? It's very interesting. I'm actually an expert on writing systems, hieroglyphic ones in particular, and from what I've been reading it appears he was illiterate, made up a syllabary, then modified it for printing. In all other cases of syllabary-creation, each glyph represents a picture of something which is associated with a word, the first syllable of which is used as the value for the glyph. But maybe Saquoyah just chose or made random glyphs which were later modified so that they ended up looking more like Roman, Cyrilic, Greek etc. By the way, this was common in the 1800's and probably before : early typefaces for Ethiopic make it look more like Roman than it actually did. Casting the lead stamps for printing was apparently cumbersome to this effect, I can imagine.
But it is not unusual that modern users of the glyphs care nothing for their origin or etymology : most writing systems are learned like this, throughout time and space, even Roman. Although the origin of the Roman Alphabet itself is now known, this information has not been incorporated into the American curricula; not to mention Hindi, Arabic, Chinese*, Japanese*, Korean*, etc., although the *-ed incorporate some limited etymology and/or folk etymology. And it should not be like this, but that humans are lazy and that archaeology is a young discipline : the origins of these writing systems was unknown before about 1800 and we continue to use the pedagogical methods from then.
I haven't seen the original syllabaries of Saquoyah, but the glyphs as we now know them are extremely abstract. Without something in the literature from Saquoyah or some tradition originating with him, matching such glyphs to words or pictures in the Cherokee iconography would be, well, interesting, yes, but tenuous, that is to say, uncertain.
I would like to call for a "wikipedia article ring" including such "scripts" or "proto-scripts" as Cherokee as well as the Alaskan Script, the Micmac Hieroglyphic (actually a mneumonic system, per Smithsonian's research and my investigations as well), and other such Native American and also non-Native American but, say, 1500-present made-up writing systems, like Cree Syllabary, Caroline Script, these Vai and Vah Syllabaries, Shorthand systems and Deserta Script etc. All of thees have relationships one to the other and each sheds much light on the other. For a good example, if you examine the history and details of Micmac Hieroglyphic and Cree Syllabary, you will find that even if Saquoyah was illiterate, he employed concepts which were at the time floating around, especially in missionary circles - Indian writing, logographic, syllabic writing systems.
Also, it seems likely from my reading and experience that if Saquoyah made the glyphs based on acrophonic logograms, he would have tried to get the word out so that it would make learning them easier. And are there any cursive forms?
Dwarfkingdom ( talk) 20:34, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
In this same section, there is a link to a version of the "original" and it looks to me, based on all my experience with writing and pseudo-writing, that he just made up random squiggles similar to English Roman cursive. However, in Micmac Hieroglyphic and Shorthand systems, such glyphs could be assigned to single words (being in Shorthand idiomatic combinations of letters). Most people, unexperienced with writing systems, might think that people could just make up jibberish and assign it a value like "cat", but this is almost never what happens. Originally, all glyphs are pictures of things. In which case, Cherokee Syllabary makes useful my recent work on Codex Seraphinus and Voynich Manuscript and Asemic Writing. Analysis needs to be done on the original glyphs : most likely, he worked hard that there was little or no "overlap" between glyphs : none look too similar to another.
It seems just like what the traditional story says, that he was illiterate and had seen (English cursive) and so made up similar looking stuff thinking that was how it was done. Because apparently he didn't know how any writing system worked or its origins, because right off the bat he invented a script where all the glyphs look very similar, whereas in their original forms (consider Hindi, its Brahmi, and Proto-Semitic) each glyphs was at first a very distinct, recongizable picture, then later a still very distinct abstraction, and then in modern times a barely distinguishable futher abstraction.
The "for printing" version is much better in terms of more economical shapes, but still, the Roman (uppercase but not lower-case) alphabet is superior to Saquoyah's "for-print" syllabary. True Abjads are more economical than Alphabets which are more economical than Syllabaries. The Cree Syllabary is even better than this, though it was inspired by the Cherokee Syllabary's success. But using or making writing system is not entirely about economy.
So can anyone find something in the literature to this effect, some scholarly or learned opinion for this article? I'll be on the look-out. I recently looked it up in Daniels and didn't find anything terribly insightful, that I can remember, anyway.
All this brings up that there's a big leap between the "original" syllabaries and the "for-print" versions : because Saquoyah made up his alphabet mostly whole-cloth, it has a complicated creation process which I really think the Wikipedia article (and scholarly literature), should reflect. Compare the creation process for Cree Syllabary and Deseret Alphabet.
Dwarfkingdom ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:42, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
This is a very detailed article: so great!
This is very nitty gritty, and this isn't necessarily you're doing, but I've noticed that the article says that there are 85 syllables or characters repeatedly throughout. Repetition is not bad because people might immediately skip to different sections if they're looking for specifics, but it's a little much.
Also, can you understand what dummy vowels are in the description section? I was a little confused as far as their purpose and what they look like or where they show up.
You also included a lot of the history of the syllabary and I liked everything that you included and the organization of this information. However, can you expand on the Sequoyah story a little? Maybe describe which written works he looked at while forming the syllabary for 12 years if the information is available.
Good job! -- Rda2512 ( talk) 04:52, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
I remember reading in a children's book ( Childcraft?) that an early version of the syllabary, written on bark, was burned by other Cherokees suspecting the "talking leaves" of sorcery, or something like that. Googling, I see references to his wife burning down his workshop to try to end his work on them. Is there a reliable source saying what happened, or just conflicting semi-reliable ones?-- SarekOfVulcan ( talk) 17:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
I have added a simple table that lists the transliterated and Unicode versions of the syllabary. The current Unicode chart is in code-point order, which I doubt will be useful to many people trying to study the syllabary. At least the version I've added can be more or less read (and cut-and-pasted). I'm no guru with Wiki syntax, so it's currently one unwieldy column. It would be great if the whole thing could be floated left, for instance, but I'm not sure how to do that. babbage ( talk) 21:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Wha did the 86th character look like, and what was its sound value? 惑乱 Wakuran ( talk) 23:38, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Interestingly, a syllabary chart published by the Cherokee Nation shows the 86th character representing the "mv" sound: [5]. Kaldari ( talk) 05:16, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Does anyone know--and can someone post--if the Cherokee syllabary, as we see it in the article, is designed in such a way that the serifs and thicker/thinner edges are actually part of the actual language, or is simply the "serif" version of it, such that a sans-serif version of the Cherokee syllabary exists as well? -- 66.92.0.62 ( talk) 08:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
This would be surprising, but it isn't linked in the "languages" tab. Unfortunately, I wouldn't know how to find the article on chr:, since I don't actually read the language... -- megA ( talk) 15:26, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
We require some proper evidence for the assertion in note 2. "The character Ꮩ do is shown upside-down in the chart, and in some fonts. It should be oriented in the same way as the Latin letter V." It displays like the Greek capital letter lambda Λ in all the Unicode fonts that I've come across so far. Likewise in both Chrome and Firefox browsers. DFH ( talk) 21:07, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
There should be something on the lowercase version of the syllabary, recently accepted by Unicode according to this blogpost: https://edward32blog.wordpress.com/2014/04/10/unicode-accepts-cherokee-lower-case-syllabary-character-set/
The encoding suggestion can be seen in this pdf: http://www.unicode.org/L2/L2014/14064-n4537-cherokee.pdf
Although it may still be on the drawing board (I don't know how long it takes for a unicode block to become standard), I think it would be a great improvement of the page to have some information on, for example, the handwriting of the Cherokee syllabary, and the history of typesetting it with two different point sizes, which lead the Unicode Consortium to accept a lowercase character set into their standardization process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.225.121.137 ( talk) 13:37, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
I have now put it in the "later development" section, but if anyone knows more about it, maybe it could have its own section. 80.71.135.96 ( talk) 21:55, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Is the Braille system truly a syllabary, or simply Consonants and Vowels? Also, is "crontracted" a word or a typo? Pete unseth ( talk) 12:58, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Unlike Canadian Aboriginal syllabics, I have not seen if anyone else ever tried to make this writing system work for any other languages, yeah I read on here about the possible influence this script may have had on one in Africa, not another one in the U.S. much less the Americas?! How could that be? -- sion8 talk page 06:19, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
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§ Syllabary shown using Unicode text contains the sentence
The "character" in the parentheses is a black block for me; I guess it is presented here in a font I don't have, unlike the other Unicode representations of the characters. This makes it impossible to tell what character is meant, even when referring to the previous section where the script is shown with images. Please identify the character in some other way, like by using an image. -- Thnidu ( talk) 13:56, 9 June 2017 (UTC) Thnidu ( talk) 13:56, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
It would be useful to add images (instead of only unicode) for the complete syllabry, so that we can see the characters without having the requisite font sets. -- 67.70.33.184 ( talk) 07:27, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
I'm trying to figure out what the section Numerals is really describing. If 504 is written with characters for 5, 100, and 4, obviously, it is not a standard positional notation system. Is it, in fact, a specialized set of characters used to write the spoken names of number in the Cherokee language, rather like writing like "five hundred and four" in English? If so, are they "numerals" in any meaningful way? ("Five hundred and four" - i.e., that sequence of 18 letters and 3 spaces - are a valid notation for the number 504, but would hardly qualify as numerals.)-- Nø ( talk) 12:44, 25 March 2021 (UTC)