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Cherokee calendar can't be sourced. Bruhac doesn't talk about one and only mentions the Cherokee in relationship to one moon.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D5z3-OHbcVoC&pg=PA54&dq=cherokee+ceremonial+cycle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PvgLUdr9KafB0gXPoYCwCQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=cherokee%20ceremonial%20cycle&f=false
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1062645?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101740791487
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/southern_cultures/v018/18.4.snyder.html
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3JH-TPFjLk4C&pg=PA349&dq=cherokee+ceremonial+cycle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PvgLUdr9KafB0gXPoYCwCQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=cherokee%20ceremonial%20cycle&f=false . Dougweller ( talk) 19:13, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
The only true source I see that may be considered reliable by Wikipedia is James Mooney's book (referenced) on page 244. Most of what we know has been passed down verbally. No official Cherokee site will list them. If the first-hand knowledge of an indigenous person were enough then I am sure there would have been no call for sourcing. Beyond telling you this is what it is and adding the Cherokee Syllabary for each month there isn't much more that can be done. Tsistunagiska ( talk) 19:25, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
I am currently restructuring/rewriting Cherokee Society but have targeted this article as my next to look at rewriting/restructuring with reliable sources. I am very glad it was decided to keep it and look forward to the challenge of adding context. Tsistunagiska ( talk) 18:23, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
I am not Cherokee, and I confess that I know little of their culture; however, from what I know of astronomy I am highly suspicious of both the claims of this article and the sources thereof. A synodic lunar month is not 28 days long, but 29.53, and sidereal 27.3, meaning this alleged lunar calendar would be nearly three weeks or one week out of sync with these respective lunar cycles after one tropical year. Every other lunar calendar in existence I know of has alternating days of 29 and 30 days for a lunar year of 354 days and 12 synodic months; with lunisolar calendars only inserting a thirteenth month once every several years as needed to keep the months from drifting with the seasons. Given that Robert Graves' "Celtic Tree Calendar", as popular among New Age circles as pseudo-indigenous North American claptrap, has exactly the same structure and has the same false claim of being a lunar calendar, this makes me wonder how much is genuine, albeit mangled, Cherokee lore and how much of it is New Age invention which somehow managed to trick actual Cherokee people. Again, I wish to iterate that I am not from this culture, but it is my genuine intention to ensure actual indigenous culture is not being confused with New Age woo here. Midnight-Blue766 ( talk) 13:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
The Cherokee calendar is based upon a lunar year and defined by 13 cycles of moon phases. Each cycle was accompanied by a ceremony. In order to rectify the Cherokee calendar with that of the Julian calendar, these cycles were reduced to 12. The seasonal round of ceremonies was integral to Cherokee society. It was considered an important spiritual element for social cohesion and a way to bring all the Cherokee clans together.
The Cherokee, like many other Native tribes, used a turtle’s back pattern of scales to determine their calendar cycle. The scales around the edge added up to 28, the same number of days as in a lunar cycle, while the center contained 13 larger scales, representing the 13 moon cycles of a year.
The Cherokee calendar was based upon a lunar year and is defined by 13 months which formerly directly corresponded to moon phases; however, the calendar is currently solar in structure. Each cycle was accompanied by a ceremony. In order to rectify the Cherokee calendar with that of the Julian calendar, these cycles were reduced to 12. The seasonal round of ceremonies was integral to Cherokee society. It was considered an important spiritual element for social cohesion and a way to bring all the Cherokee clans together.
The Cherokee, like many other Native tribes, used a turtle’s back pattern of scales to determine their calendar cycle. The scales around the edge added up to 28, the same number of days as a month, while the center contained 13 larger scales, representing the 13 months of a year. The length of a synodic lunar month is 29.5 days. Although this calendar was originally a lunar calendar, it was subsequently modified by shortening month lengths and permanently inserting a 13th month to better fit with the solar year. (changes bolded by me)
The traditional Cherokee moon cycle of 28 days differs from the astronomical synodic month (the time it takes for the moon to return to the same phase) of approximately 29.5 days. [1] In this respect, it differs from many other traditional lunar calendars, which use synodic months. [2] However, the traditional Cherokee definition of a lunar month as consisting of exactly 28 days is identical to that formerly used in English common law. [3] [4]
References
Can I ask why the primary sources consist of a fake tribe http://theucn.com/ceremonies.html and a commercial site https://www.aaanativearts.com ? Also, for the majority of translations, there is only one dialect. I find this a bit disconcerting. Indigenous girl ( talk) 20:37, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
I have not yet found an image or species of North American turtle with 28 scutes around the edge of their shell. Many North American species of turtles do have 13 scutes on the backs of their shells (lateral and central scutes), but most have 24 marginal scutes plus 1 cervical scute. The turtle shell in the image in this article does not have 28 scutes around its shell. I have counted scutes on numerous images of turtle shells and examined many physical specimen-- I can't make it add up to 28 no matter how I look at it. I don't know what "certain species of turtle[s]" mentioned in the article have 28 scutes.
I am not qualified to debate whether the claim (that some Native American traditions use the turtle shell as a model or parable to describe a 13 month year with 28 days) is true, but the article should not state the following (bolded) as fact:
"The Cherokee, like many other Native tribes, used the number of scutes on the backs of certain species of turtles to determine their calendar cycle. The scutes around the edge added up to 28, the same number of days as in a lunar cycle, while the center contained 13 larger scutes, representing the 13 moon cycles of a year."
Is there any other documentation that substantiates this claim and its traditional use/origin? I'm skeptical-- though, again, that may not be precisely what needs correcting. Maybe a better question would be: are there any photographs of North American turtle species with the 28 marginal/cervical scutes to substantiate the statements about turtle anatomy that this article claims?
At very least, the 13/28 scutes statement should be quoted from the cited sources, not stated as fact in the article. 2603:6080:6506:F400:25C5:6C9A:502:5CC5 ( talk) 02:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
The Mooney source mentions Gúyû as a fifth season between Gagi and Ulăgăhûstû. ARoseWolf, I assume you removed it based on usage in modern Cherokee, but would it still make sense to mention it as a historical note? Mooney describes the five season system as being retained at the time of writing, which seems noteworthy to include, though I don't know enough to be sure. Geobica ( talk) 19:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 23 September 2005. The result of the discussion was KEEP. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 30 December 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was Keep (Withdrawn). |
Archives: 1 |
Cherokee calendar can't be sourced. Bruhac doesn't talk about one and only mentions the Cherokee in relationship to one moon.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D5z3-OHbcVoC&pg=PA54&dq=cherokee+ceremonial+cycle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PvgLUdr9KafB0gXPoYCwCQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=cherokee%20ceremonial%20cycle&f=false
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1062645?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101740791487
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/southern_cultures/v018/18.4.snyder.html
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3JH-TPFjLk4C&pg=PA349&dq=cherokee+ceremonial+cycle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PvgLUdr9KafB0gXPoYCwCQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=cherokee%20ceremonial%20cycle&f=false . Dougweller ( talk) 19:13, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
The only true source I see that may be considered reliable by Wikipedia is James Mooney's book (referenced) on page 244. Most of what we know has been passed down verbally. No official Cherokee site will list them. If the first-hand knowledge of an indigenous person were enough then I am sure there would have been no call for sourcing. Beyond telling you this is what it is and adding the Cherokee Syllabary for each month there isn't much more that can be done. Tsistunagiska ( talk) 19:25, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
I am currently restructuring/rewriting Cherokee Society but have targeted this article as my next to look at rewriting/restructuring with reliable sources. I am very glad it was decided to keep it and look forward to the challenge of adding context. Tsistunagiska ( talk) 18:23, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
I am not Cherokee, and I confess that I know little of their culture; however, from what I know of astronomy I am highly suspicious of both the claims of this article and the sources thereof. A synodic lunar month is not 28 days long, but 29.53, and sidereal 27.3, meaning this alleged lunar calendar would be nearly three weeks or one week out of sync with these respective lunar cycles after one tropical year. Every other lunar calendar in existence I know of has alternating days of 29 and 30 days for a lunar year of 354 days and 12 synodic months; with lunisolar calendars only inserting a thirteenth month once every several years as needed to keep the months from drifting with the seasons. Given that Robert Graves' "Celtic Tree Calendar", as popular among New Age circles as pseudo-indigenous North American claptrap, has exactly the same structure and has the same false claim of being a lunar calendar, this makes me wonder how much is genuine, albeit mangled, Cherokee lore and how much of it is New Age invention which somehow managed to trick actual Cherokee people. Again, I wish to iterate that I am not from this culture, but it is my genuine intention to ensure actual indigenous culture is not being confused with New Age woo here. Midnight-Blue766 ( talk) 13:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
The Cherokee calendar is based upon a lunar year and defined by 13 cycles of moon phases. Each cycle was accompanied by a ceremony. In order to rectify the Cherokee calendar with that of the Julian calendar, these cycles were reduced to 12. The seasonal round of ceremonies was integral to Cherokee society. It was considered an important spiritual element for social cohesion and a way to bring all the Cherokee clans together.
The Cherokee, like many other Native tribes, used a turtle’s back pattern of scales to determine their calendar cycle. The scales around the edge added up to 28, the same number of days as in a lunar cycle, while the center contained 13 larger scales, representing the 13 moon cycles of a year.
The Cherokee calendar was based upon a lunar year and is defined by 13 months which formerly directly corresponded to moon phases; however, the calendar is currently solar in structure. Each cycle was accompanied by a ceremony. In order to rectify the Cherokee calendar with that of the Julian calendar, these cycles were reduced to 12. The seasonal round of ceremonies was integral to Cherokee society. It was considered an important spiritual element for social cohesion and a way to bring all the Cherokee clans together.
The Cherokee, like many other Native tribes, used a turtle’s back pattern of scales to determine their calendar cycle. The scales around the edge added up to 28, the same number of days as a month, while the center contained 13 larger scales, representing the 13 months of a year. The length of a synodic lunar month is 29.5 days. Although this calendar was originally a lunar calendar, it was subsequently modified by shortening month lengths and permanently inserting a 13th month to better fit with the solar year. (changes bolded by me)
The traditional Cherokee moon cycle of 28 days differs from the astronomical synodic month (the time it takes for the moon to return to the same phase) of approximately 29.5 days. [1] In this respect, it differs from many other traditional lunar calendars, which use synodic months. [2] However, the traditional Cherokee definition of a lunar month as consisting of exactly 28 days is identical to that formerly used in English common law. [3] [4]
References
Can I ask why the primary sources consist of a fake tribe http://theucn.com/ceremonies.html and a commercial site https://www.aaanativearts.com ? Also, for the majority of translations, there is only one dialect. I find this a bit disconcerting. Indigenous girl ( talk) 20:37, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
I have not yet found an image or species of North American turtle with 28 scutes around the edge of their shell. Many North American species of turtles do have 13 scutes on the backs of their shells (lateral and central scutes), but most have 24 marginal scutes plus 1 cervical scute. The turtle shell in the image in this article does not have 28 scutes around its shell. I have counted scutes on numerous images of turtle shells and examined many physical specimen-- I can't make it add up to 28 no matter how I look at it. I don't know what "certain species of turtle[s]" mentioned in the article have 28 scutes.
I am not qualified to debate whether the claim (that some Native American traditions use the turtle shell as a model or parable to describe a 13 month year with 28 days) is true, but the article should not state the following (bolded) as fact:
"The Cherokee, like many other Native tribes, used the number of scutes on the backs of certain species of turtles to determine their calendar cycle. The scutes around the edge added up to 28, the same number of days as in a lunar cycle, while the center contained 13 larger scutes, representing the 13 moon cycles of a year."
Is there any other documentation that substantiates this claim and its traditional use/origin? I'm skeptical-- though, again, that may not be precisely what needs correcting. Maybe a better question would be: are there any photographs of North American turtle species with the 28 marginal/cervical scutes to substantiate the statements about turtle anatomy that this article claims?
At very least, the 13/28 scutes statement should be quoted from the cited sources, not stated as fact in the article. 2603:6080:6506:F400:25C5:6C9A:502:5CC5 ( talk) 02:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
The Mooney source mentions Gúyû as a fifth season between Gagi and Ulăgăhûstû. ARoseWolf, I assume you removed it based on usage in modern Cherokee, but would it still make sense to mention it as a historical note? Mooney describes the five season system as being retained at the time of writing, which seems noteworthy to include, though I don't know enough to be sure. Geobica ( talk) 19:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)