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Couldnt find out how to post so Ill do it here, Isnt Sous spelled Souse? Or is tht just the Computer Not knowing like French or something to that Extent
I placed a proposal on Sous Chef to merge into this article, as the informatihhhon exists here already, it would just be changed to a re-direct to this page.-- Christopher Tanner, CCC 17:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The original edit was listed as Executive chef
[1] with proper citation from a well respected text on culinary arts.
User:Cokehabit has edited the section multiple times after revert to
Chef#Chef de Cuisine/Head Chef with information plagiarized from the BBC citation given. The issue
User:Cokehabit states is that Executive Chef is an American term, used for chain restaurants and American themed restaurants which is not true at all, even if that were true the next heading which is in fact Chef de Cuisine properly cited again from the aforementioned text explains the term is used synonymously in Europe and in the United States takes care of that issue. [User:Cokehabit]]'s edit is just confusing and an infringement on
WP:Copyright by plagiarizing the BBC website.--
Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC
18:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
The information as it stands is at best from an American POV and at worst is blatantly wrong. The main chef in a restaurant is the head chef, only about 5% of restaurants actually have executive chefs.
From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/tv_and_radio/masterchef/training_index1.shtml#know_the_basics
# Head chef/chef de cuisine: the boss. Will plan menus, hire and fire staff and deal with suppliers and manage costs and budgets. Depending on their profile and other commitments, the head chef will often leave much of the day-to-day work to the sous.
# Executive chef: larger establishments such as hotels will have an executive chef. This person may have much the same responsibilities as the head chef of a restaurant but on a larger scale. They may be responsible for planning the menu and setting the agenda for the style of the cuisine served, for example.
From: http://www.cuisinenet.com/digest/custom/restaurant/chef_ladder.shtml
# Chef de Cuisine This is the apex, the chef whose initials are etched into the silver flatware, and embroidered onto the washroom towels. This chef has the vision, conceives the dishes, imbues the whole restaurant with his/her personality. This would be the person who appears on television. Sometimes, if need be, chefs de cuisine even cook.
# Executive Chef This is a nebulous title, as only the biggest, most famous chefs de cuisine follow themselves with executive chefs. Executive chefs run the whole kitchen when the big boss isn't around and are often employed when a chef has more than one restaurant. They hire and fire the staff, determine costs, revamp the menu, take care of all administrative tasks, interact with the dining room managers, and generally oversee the well-being of the restaurant. In smaller, less flamboyant restaurants, the Chef de Cuisine sees to all this, and an executive chef would be redundant.
They are the first 2 articles explaining it in a search [2]
Anyone who has trained as a chef knows this. Please change it to what it is supposed to be, "chef" Tanner obviously has some sock puppets by the look of it as well.
If more examples are needed just Google it or ask me.
Cokehabit 05:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Cokehabit is arguing that the term Executive Chef is solely an American term, well according to my sources that I googled (per his suggestion) I have come up with the following:
the definition of Chef de Cuisine:
chef de cui·sine /ʃɛf də kwiˈzin/ Spelled Pronunciation: [shef duh kwee-zeen] –noun,
plural: chefs de cui·sine /ʃɛf də kwiˈzin/ Spelled Pronunciation: [shef duh kwee-zeen] French. chef (def. 1).
[Origin: lit., head of kitchen]
Dictionary.com does not have a definition for Executive Chef. I tried the OED but it is subscription based.
Here is a description of the terms:
The position of "chef," which comes from chef de cuisine, or chief of the kitchen, signifies the highest-ranking worker in a grand hierarchy. Initially he was in charge of running the kitchen, and, like the butler, reported in turn to the head of the household. In twentieth-century parlance, the "chef" traditionally has been a department head. Chefs de cuisine were part of the guild system, which regulated artisan practices in France until the French Revolution. Guilds controlled apprentices, the only means available for acquiring training in artisanal crafts and becoming an established craftsperson. Guilds also supervised aspects of production. In France up until the nineteenth century, maître queux, or master cooks in noble houses, were treated under a separate set of guild statutes. Cuisiniers and traiteurs, who worked alongside the urban streets, were considered another corporate group. Only after the revolution did these two groups meld, eventually leading to the identification of the chef de cuisine or head of any large establishment, public or private.
As the modern restaurant became more a part of the economic culture, however, chefs de cuisine were as often found outside the kitchen, promoting their restaurants, dealing with customers, and reading and responding to profit and loss statements. The traditional tasks of over-seeing menu and recipe development and supervising the production of food as it goes out of the kitchen into the restaurant remained a vital part of their job descriptions but did not encompass them totally. In larger, more corporate environments, such as hotels, chain restaurants, and college food services, the title chef de cuisine was often replaced with "executive chef." Managing a professional kitchen revolves around a corporate-style identity as much as or more than any cultural or culinary allegiance.
Based on these two sections, I can read nothing about the term Executive chef as American only. It appears that the term is about a corporate position, or an executive in charge of division or group of locations. Now before you scream that the article does go on about Chef de Cuisine and America, the paragraph in the next section does list American influences, however it is about celebrity chefs.
Now here is an example of it being used in London (Not Connecticut, as in England):
Darwin-born Michael Radtke, 29, is the executive chef at Novotel London Tower Bridge. He has 10 chefs in his brigade and four kitchen porters, and it's fair to say that his approach to man-management and motivation is a little different to the norm.
- Michael Radtke, executive chef, Novotel London Tower Bridge
Here are some job listings for Executive Chef positions in England (Cokehabit's Home turf):
Based upon these, I would say it is fairly global, not solely an American, term. Now as a person who has been in the Hospitality industry longer than Coke Habit has been alive, I have learned that the two terms are use interchangably, and Ckoehabit is in the wrong IMHO.
By the way, I am not a sock puppet, a Sox fan yes, but not a sock puppet. Read all about me here.
- Jeremy ( Jerem43 08:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC))
I just ran a search at Caterer.com, a British site for food service job seekers. Their page for
searching for positions by specialty does not include 'Chef de Cuisine' as an option, however, when you follow the link for
Executive chef, about one out of every 30 is listed as a Chef de Cuisine. The rest of the positions, in London, Edinburgh, Dublin, Christchurch, on cruise lines, etc. (in other words, all over the United Kingdom), are Executive Chefs. Obviously, the UK job-searching site seems to consider them the same position, and Executive Chef as the more common one.
There are 12,500 matches for 'Chef de Cuisine' (exact term) in the United Kingdom through Google. [3] There are 43,700 matches for 'Executive Chef' (exact term). [4]
This seems peculiar, if 'only 5% of restaurants' have executive chefs. Why *would* UK websites mention them 4 times as often?
I want to see real cites to back this up, from actual industry authorities (not a BBC site for a cooking show, or CuisineNet, which is actually a dead site (if you go to the main page cuisinenet.com, you will be redirected to 'dinesite.com', and the timestamp seems to indicate cuisinenet hasn't been updated for years). Both the American Culinary Federation and the Canadian Culinary Federation have descriptions indicating that the positions are close to the same. Find me something within the industry that actually backs up what you're saying, or, regardless of the truth of it, it fails on verifiability, which is what Wikipedia needs. -- Thespian 08:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I never said that the term wasn't used, I said that it is mainly an American term, most used when a chef of note has his name to a restaurant but as he has more than one he uses a protege. Web sites are obviously being thrown around liberally so i'll add 2 more:
http://www.successfulnewcareer.co.uk/chefs.htm
t 12,500 matches for
http://www.caterer.com/JobSeeking/job33887584.html
The latter is from caterer.com (if BBC wasn't good enough).
A note was made that 'Chef de Cuisine' had 12,500 matches in google and that 'Executive Chef' had 43,700. Well the term that I keep saying is used is Head Chef and/or Chef de Cuisine and head chef gets 1,450,000, over 20 times what "executive chef" does. [5]
I suggest a rewrite with Executive chef addressing the larger establishments with more than one cuisine type (like a large hotel) and with a note that it is also the title give by well known chefs to their protege.
Cokehabit 14:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Chef de Cuisine or Head Chef
Executive Chef
Cokehabit 05:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
As for evidence, well I have given you lots here, if you want another one then the page for Gordon Ramsay's restaurant in New York gives no mention of an executive chef [8]. There is Chef de Cuisine (head chef) though. Cokehabit ( talk) 19:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
As the chefs titles in the article follow the Brigade de cuisine system then the Chef article should as well. An additional note can be made about the Executive Chef's role.
Agree/Disagree? Cokehabit ( talk) 13:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Came in from RfC. I see that Thespian has saved me the trouble. Well said. Consensus seems to be with the "executive" argument. I agree. Phyesalis ( talk) 09:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Fine, leave it as it is but it is slanted to an American perspective. In the interests of neutrality it should be changed. That is my last comment on the subject. Cokehabit 16:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Systems that rate what these experts consider the best:
(Not an exhaustive list, please help add)
- Cuisine et Vins de France.
- James Beard Foundation.
- Bon Appétit Magazine.
- TIME Magazine.
as a chef i find it not only obscene but also grossly misleading for both pictures of chefs - european and american - to have people wearing those fucking silly hats. no one in any kitchen in new york, charleston or anywhere i have ever been in wears a hat that is remotely similar. a few stuck up frenchies maybe... but 98% of the rest of the world - not happening. Please someone make this right. - joshua
christopher - after further investigation i see you have put a picture of yourself. i should have guessed. you look like a penis. i hope you're pleased with yourself. now people will think chefs all look like penises. not appropriate or fitting for a encyclopedia i say. - joshua
-- Tuzapicabit ( talk) 14:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't this have a section to itself? It's quite a big deal in larger kitchens. The pastry chef would be on the same level as a Sous (and probably paid a lot more). -- Tuzapicabit ( talk) 14:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
There's no indication in the article what an Executive Chef (or Chef de Cuisine) DOES. Please remedy. Softlavender ( talk) 04:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Couldnt find out how to post so Ill do it here, Isnt Sous spelled Souse? Or is tht just the Computer Not knowing like French or something to that Extent
I placed a proposal on Sous Chef to merge into this article, as the informatihhhon exists here already, it would just be changed to a re-direct to this page.-- Christopher Tanner, CCC 17:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The original edit was listed as Executive chef
[1] with proper citation from a well respected text on culinary arts.
User:Cokehabit has edited the section multiple times after revert to
Chef#Chef de Cuisine/Head Chef with information plagiarized from the BBC citation given. The issue
User:Cokehabit states is that Executive Chef is an American term, used for chain restaurants and American themed restaurants which is not true at all, even if that were true the next heading which is in fact Chef de Cuisine properly cited again from the aforementioned text explains the term is used synonymously in Europe and in the United States takes care of that issue. [User:Cokehabit]]'s edit is just confusing and an infringement on
WP:Copyright by plagiarizing the BBC website.--
Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC
18:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
The information as it stands is at best from an American POV and at worst is blatantly wrong. The main chef in a restaurant is the head chef, only about 5% of restaurants actually have executive chefs.
From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/tv_and_radio/masterchef/training_index1.shtml#know_the_basics
# Head chef/chef de cuisine: the boss. Will plan menus, hire and fire staff and deal with suppliers and manage costs and budgets. Depending on their profile and other commitments, the head chef will often leave much of the day-to-day work to the sous.
# Executive chef: larger establishments such as hotels will have an executive chef. This person may have much the same responsibilities as the head chef of a restaurant but on a larger scale. They may be responsible for planning the menu and setting the agenda for the style of the cuisine served, for example.
From: http://www.cuisinenet.com/digest/custom/restaurant/chef_ladder.shtml
# Chef de Cuisine This is the apex, the chef whose initials are etched into the silver flatware, and embroidered onto the washroom towels. This chef has the vision, conceives the dishes, imbues the whole restaurant with his/her personality. This would be the person who appears on television. Sometimes, if need be, chefs de cuisine even cook.
# Executive Chef This is a nebulous title, as only the biggest, most famous chefs de cuisine follow themselves with executive chefs. Executive chefs run the whole kitchen when the big boss isn't around and are often employed when a chef has more than one restaurant. They hire and fire the staff, determine costs, revamp the menu, take care of all administrative tasks, interact with the dining room managers, and generally oversee the well-being of the restaurant. In smaller, less flamboyant restaurants, the Chef de Cuisine sees to all this, and an executive chef would be redundant.
They are the first 2 articles explaining it in a search [2]
Anyone who has trained as a chef knows this. Please change it to what it is supposed to be, "chef" Tanner obviously has some sock puppets by the look of it as well.
If more examples are needed just Google it or ask me.
Cokehabit 05:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Cokehabit is arguing that the term Executive Chef is solely an American term, well according to my sources that I googled (per his suggestion) I have come up with the following:
the definition of Chef de Cuisine:
chef de cui·sine /ʃɛf də kwiˈzin/ Spelled Pronunciation: [shef duh kwee-zeen] –noun,
plural: chefs de cui·sine /ʃɛf də kwiˈzin/ Spelled Pronunciation: [shef duh kwee-zeen] French. chef (def. 1).
[Origin: lit., head of kitchen]
Dictionary.com does not have a definition for Executive Chef. I tried the OED but it is subscription based.
Here is a description of the terms:
The position of "chef," which comes from chef de cuisine, or chief of the kitchen, signifies the highest-ranking worker in a grand hierarchy. Initially he was in charge of running the kitchen, and, like the butler, reported in turn to the head of the household. In twentieth-century parlance, the "chef" traditionally has been a department head. Chefs de cuisine were part of the guild system, which regulated artisan practices in France until the French Revolution. Guilds controlled apprentices, the only means available for acquiring training in artisanal crafts and becoming an established craftsperson. Guilds also supervised aspects of production. In France up until the nineteenth century, maître queux, or master cooks in noble houses, were treated under a separate set of guild statutes. Cuisiniers and traiteurs, who worked alongside the urban streets, were considered another corporate group. Only after the revolution did these two groups meld, eventually leading to the identification of the chef de cuisine or head of any large establishment, public or private.
As the modern restaurant became more a part of the economic culture, however, chefs de cuisine were as often found outside the kitchen, promoting their restaurants, dealing with customers, and reading and responding to profit and loss statements. The traditional tasks of over-seeing menu and recipe development and supervising the production of food as it goes out of the kitchen into the restaurant remained a vital part of their job descriptions but did not encompass them totally. In larger, more corporate environments, such as hotels, chain restaurants, and college food services, the title chef de cuisine was often replaced with "executive chef." Managing a professional kitchen revolves around a corporate-style identity as much as or more than any cultural or culinary allegiance.
Based on these two sections, I can read nothing about the term Executive chef as American only. It appears that the term is about a corporate position, or an executive in charge of division or group of locations. Now before you scream that the article does go on about Chef de Cuisine and America, the paragraph in the next section does list American influences, however it is about celebrity chefs.
Now here is an example of it being used in London (Not Connecticut, as in England):
Darwin-born Michael Radtke, 29, is the executive chef at Novotel London Tower Bridge. He has 10 chefs in his brigade and four kitchen porters, and it's fair to say that his approach to man-management and motivation is a little different to the norm.
- Michael Radtke, executive chef, Novotel London Tower Bridge
Here are some job listings for Executive Chef positions in England (Cokehabit's Home turf):
Based upon these, I would say it is fairly global, not solely an American, term. Now as a person who has been in the Hospitality industry longer than Coke Habit has been alive, I have learned that the two terms are use interchangably, and Ckoehabit is in the wrong IMHO.
By the way, I am not a sock puppet, a Sox fan yes, but not a sock puppet. Read all about me here.
- Jeremy ( Jerem43 08:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC))
I just ran a search at Caterer.com, a British site for food service job seekers. Their page for
searching for positions by specialty does not include 'Chef de Cuisine' as an option, however, when you follow the link for
Executive chef, about one out of every 30 is listed as a Chef de Cuisine. The rest of the positions, in London, Edinburgh, Dublin, Christchurch, on cruise lines, etc. (in other words, all over the United Kingdom), are Executive Chefs. Obviously, the UK job-searching site seems to consider them the same position, and Executive Chef as the more common one.
There are 12,500 matches for 'Chef de Cuisine' (exact term) in the United Kingdom through Google. [3] There are 43,700 matches for 'Executive Chef' (exact term). [4]
This seems peculiar, if 'only 5% of restaurants' have executive chefs. Why *would* UK websites mention them 4 times as often?
I want to see real cites to back this up, from actual industry authorities (not a BBC site for a cooking show, or CuisineNet, which is actually a dead site (if you go to the main page cuisinenet.com, you will be redirected to 'dinesite.com', and the timestamp seems to indicate cuisinenet hasn't been updated for years). Both the American Culinary Federation and the Canadian Culinary Federation have descriptions indicating that the positions are close to the same. Find me something within the industry that actually backs up what you're saying, or, regardless of the truth of it, it fails on verifiability, which is what Wikipedia needs. -- Thespian 08:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I never said that the term wasn't used, I said that it is mainly an American term, most used when a chef of note has his name to a restaurant but as he has more than one he uses a protege. Web sites are obviously being thrown around liberally so i'll add 2 more:
http://www.successfulnewcareer.co.uk/chefs.htm
t 12,500 matches for
http://www.caterer.com/JobSeeking/job33887584.html
The latter is from caterer.com (if BBC wasn't good enough).
A note was made that 'Chef de Cuisine' had 12,500 matches in google and that 'Executive Chef' had 43,700. Well the term that I keep saying is used is Head Chef and/or Chef de Cuisine and head chef gets 1,450,000, over 20 times what "executive chef" does. [5]
I suggest a rewrite with Executive chef addressing the larger establishments with more than one cuisine type (like a large hotel) and with a note that it is also the title give by well known chefs to their protege.
Cokehabit 14:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Chef de Cuisine or Head Chef
Executive Chef
Cokehabit 05:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
As for evidence, well I have given you lots here, if you want another one then the page for Gordon Ramsay's restaurant in New York gives no mention of an executive chef [8]. There is Chef de Cuisine (head chef) though. Cokehabit ( talk) 19:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
As the chefs titles in the article follow the Brigade de cuisine system then the Chef article should as well. An additional note can be made about the Executive Chef's role.
Agree/Disagree? Cokehabit ( talk) 13:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Came in from RfC. I see that Thespian has saved me the trouble. Well said. Consensus seems to be with the "executive" argument. I agree. Phyesalis ( talk) 09:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Fine, leave it as it is but it is slanted to an American perspective. In the interests of neutrality it should be changed. That is my last comment on the subject. Cokehabit 16:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Systems that rate what these experts consider the best:
(Not an exhaustive list, please help add)
- Cuisine et Vins de France.
- James Beard Foundation.
- Bon Appétit Magazine.
- TIME Magazine.
as a chef i find it not only obscene but also grossly misleading for both pictures of chefs - european and american - to have people wearing those fucking silly hats. no one in any kitchen in new york, charleston or anywhere i have ever been in wears a hat that is remotely similar. a few stuck up frenchies maybe... but 98% of the rest of the world - not happening. Please someone make this right. - joshua
christopher - after further investigation i see you have put a picture of yourself. i should have guessed. you look like a penis. i hope you're pleased with yourself. now people will think chefs all look like penises. not appropriate or fitting for a encyclopedia i say. - joshua
-- Tuzapicabit ( talk) 14:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't this have a section to itself? It's quite a big deal in larger kitchens. The pastry chef would be on the same level as a Sous (and probably paid a lot more). -- Tuzapicabit ( talk) 14:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
There's no indication in the article what an Executive Chef (or Chef de Cuisine) DOES. Please remedy. Softlavender ( talk) 04:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)