This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
This is Archive 9 covering approximately 3 October 2006 - 28 October 2006 |
Someone has recently made modifications to the Criticism section as a result of which its prose is now even more turgid than it had been before. Please note the sentences I have marked in bold in the following paragraph: The second bolded sentence is a virtual repetition of the first! I am putting this text here to give the person who created it, or some other editor, the opportunity to revise it. Please do so expeditiously, because writing of such poor quality cannot be allowed to linger long in a Featured Article. -- Polaris999 03:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the criticism section is a bit of a mess, Polaris. Much work to be done by all to restore it to some level of credibility. These sections tend to get very shabby very quickly and are almost impossible to maintain. But I recommend an effort to identify the three or four key recurring criticisms of Guevara, and then attempt to write them using the standard of sourcing the rest of the article has reached. In my mind these key points are;
The page carries the below (unsourced) paragraph in the legacy section.
To me it reads like original research - and quite frankly a eulogy rather than an accurate encyclopedia entry. Would anyone object if I removed it? -- Zleitzen 03:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I think in Che Guevara's euology it should be pointed out that many were glad at his military incompetence and his arrogance which lead, through myriad miliatry blunders (he even got the language wrong in Bolivia), to the death of many vicious terrorists and himself. Still that does not bring back the rebel friend of mine who was killed. El Jigue 10-3-06
Guevara and his men went to Bolivia to kill to suppress all who opposed them, and establish a dogmatic marxist regime. I regret the deaths of those they killed, perhaps 150 by some counts. I feel some sorrow for Tania, as she was betrayed by her own for their own partisan purposes. Yet she was as ruthless as any other of that group. Guevara's partisans, never showed that kind of regret, and it never crossed the mind of Guevara to show mercy when dealing with those who he considered enemies or rivals. One reflects on the irony of it all, that we are expected to feel regret for the death of someone who thought of mortal hate as a virtue and is never reported to have shown mercy when he had the opportunity to kill. El Jigue 10-5-06
Humberto Fontanova quotes Guevara today ""If the nuclear missiles had remained, we would have used them against the very heart of America, including New York City," Che Guevara confided to the London Daily Worker in November 1962. "We will march the path of victory even if it costs millions of atomic victims. ... We must keep our hatred alive and fan it to paroxysm.""
[1]. El Jigue 10-5-06
I've had a tinker around in the legacy section - and attempted to covey 172's writings by quoting sourced material such as the immediate report by Latin American advisors. User:Dasondas has actually expanded the discusion of the U.S. State Department report citing the specific date and providing fuller quotes. I would argue that this isn't necessary - that we just need to get a general flavour of the comments - and we can reduce it to a few lines again. Any thoughts?-- Zleitzen 04:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's the new version, with the additions located in bold
The differences are adding the date of the report, adding "as a model revolutionary", and the mention of communists as well as leftists. The point that Hughes makes about discouraging Cuban style guerrilla warfare was perhaps questionable as it continued immediately throughout Latin America and Africa. We'll never know if groups were discouraged by Guevara's death, but we certainly know that leftists of all stripes eulogized Guevara - which was the key point of the paragraph. I'm not sure if these changes are necessary on what is already a large article, or that they radically alter the POV, but that's just my opinion.-- Zleitzen 13:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
As to "Cuban style guerrilla" warfare, Guevara never did apply that for he never found, let alone developed, the multi-class, multi-ideological, infrastructure that existed in Cuba during the war against Batista. In Cuba he parasitized such infrastructure, and often he killed those he should have considered allies, to try to purge it of all who thought differently from him. In Bolivia, as in Africa, he never knew how to cooperate, not even with the Bolivian communist party. Of course you cannot cite this because this is from my personal experience and observations; and such is not allowed in Wikipedia. So you are just going to have to wait until my book comes out xe xe El Jigue. 10-11-06
P: Thank you. I can see it now, at the edge of the dying fire the wolves of the academe gathered in a circle, their eyes wide, their tongues dripping toxic saliva in anticipation of the joys of rending their prey. Still as long as you pay for it xe xe. While you are waiting to make me rich (or infamous, despised and poverty stricken) by buying or not buying my book (:>), you can find a wide variety of opinions at the discussion section of "Aleida Guevara vs Gen. Gary Prado" at
[2]. Of course nobody gets rich selling an academic book but still I can dream. El Jigue 10-11-06
One of the most compelling comes from the words of Raul Castro himself as he describes the take over of El Segundo Frente from the escopeteros in
Castro, Raúl 1969 Diario de Campaña. Travesía de la Sierra Maestra al Segundo Frente “Frank País” In: La Sierra y el Llano. Casas de las Américas Havana pp. 201-257.
Then there are los Muchachos de Lara, Anonymous 2005 Organización de las Luchas Armadas Revolucionarias. El Crisol July 18 2005 recovered from cache. These links are no longer functional
[3]
[4]
this one is brief, but seems to still work
[5]
then there is Lara and teniente Mathius (traidor) (accessed 10/12/2006)This is G o o g l e's cache of
http://www.baibrama.cult.cu/municipios/calixto/efem12.htm as retrieved on Jul 15, 2005 02:38:36 GMT.
Apparently something went "wrong" and Orlando Lara went into disfavor. There is even mention of escopeteros being wiped out in the narrations of Massetti senior. This may well be the reference, but I have not rechecked it Masetti, Jorge Ricardo 2005 Los que luchan y los que lloran Publicado digitalmente: 8 de junio de 2005 [
http://rodolfowalsh.free.fr/article.php3?id_article=0839[
It would seem that many escopeteros, such as the Brothers Beaton, also fought in the different risings which are often lumped into "La Guerra Contra los Bandidos" and thus have been erased from official histories. By the way Corzo, Pedro 2006 Ernesto Guevara, alias "Che, "LiberPress. Buenos Aires- 8 de octubre de 2006. liberpress@gmail.com has a number of very critical things to say about the Che. You should be able to find that with a google search El Jigue 10-12-06
The article needs some reworking. Since it was featured, it has lost its shape and may need a featured article review. Some of my concerns (some are more serious than others, in no particular order):
The em dash (—) the em dash is a doubled en dash, just as the letter "m" is like a doubled letter "n". The em dash is twice as long as the en dash and about the length of the capital "M" in any particular font. The em dash is used in much the same way as a colon or set of parentheses: it can show an abrupt change in thought or be used where a period is too strong and a comma too weak. An em dash can have spaces on either side or not, depending on the writer's preference or in-house style rules; and many writers prefer to use the en dash (spaced) for this parenthetical use, with many of those also preferring a spaced en dash as a colon substitute. |
Punctuation When punctuating quoted passages, include the punctuation mark inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation mark is part of the quotation ("logical" quotations). When using " scare quotes" to indicate a phrase used ironically, the comma or period always goes outside. Double quotation marks belong at the beginning of each paragraph in a quotation of multiple paragraphs, though at the end of only the last paragraph. Examples:
|
Maintaining a separate "References" section in addition to "Notes"
It is helpful when footnotes are used that a References section also be maintained, in which the sources that were used are listed in alphabetical order. With articles that have lots of footnotes, it can become hard to see after a while exactly which sources have been used, particularly when the footnotes also contain explanatory text. A References section, which contains only citations, helps readers to see at a glance the quality of the references used. |
Templates |
That was a quick review, hopefully someone will be able to fix it, as I am currently too busy outside Wikipedia to help. -- ReyBrujo 03:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
External links
External links can be embedded in the body of an article to provide specific references. These links have no description other than an automatically generated number. For example: Sample text. [http://www.example.org]
An embedded external link should be accompanied by a
full citation in the article's References section.
|
Polaris that thing on Guisa was referenced to hard copy often to the detailed account in:
Bonachea, Ramon L and Marta San Martin 1974. The Cuban insurrection 1952-1959. Transaction Publishers, New Brunswik, New Jersey ISBN 0-87855-576-5
Castro, Fidel 1972 (editors Bonachea, Rolando E. and Nelson P. Valdéz) Revolutionary Struggle. 1947-1958. MIT Press Cambridge, Massachusetts and London ISBN 0-262-02065-3
Other useful references to this period are:
Chapelle, Dickey 1962 How Castro Won. In: Modern Guerrilla Warfare Fighting Communist Guerrilla Movements (Franklin Mark Osanka editor). Free Press of Glencoe (Macmillan) NY. pp. 325-335. Dickie took a photograph of Lieutenant Cipriano (almost certainly Cipriano Beaton firing at Maffo).
Matos, Huber, 2002. Como llego la Noche. Tusquet Editores, SA, Barcelona. ISBN 84-8310-944-1
Puebla, Teté (Brigadier General Cuban Armed Forces) 2003 Marianas in Combat: and the Mariana Grajales Women's Platoon in Cuba's Revolutionary War 1956-58, New York Pathfinder ISBN 0-87348-957-8
These had hardcopy references somehow (:>) became "delinked" Most references on Guisa are from big wigs who like Castro were hiding first behind the concrete walls of Mon Corona's Hacienda miles from the fighting, and then then went to even more inaccessible Cuevas de Santa Barbara, buried in eastern wall of the lower canyon of the Guisa River. The fighting officials were sidelined Victor Mora died poor but free in Miami, Orlando Rodriguez Puerto was charged with Castro's body guard and Universo Sanchez who as far as I know was distant from the fighting most if not all the time, and of course Braulio Cureneau was killed in the fighting. Some were killed as the fighting continued, Huber Matos of course was imprisoned......El Jigue 10-14-06.
Actions at Guisa are described in Castro, Fidel 1972 (editors Bonachea, Rolando E. and Nelson P. Valdéz) Revolutionary Struggle. 1947-1958. MIT Press Cambridge, Massachusetts and London ISBN 0-262-02065-3 pp. 439-442. Here T-17 heavy armored cars are described as tanks...BTW The Sierra Maestra is in Cuba, La Sierra Madre "nice pair of boots you have there" is in Mexico. El Jigue 10-15-06
P: One of the problems of descriptions of relatively recent Cuban history is the false coherence of "official histories," and the fragmentation of data and lack of access to archives of "non-official" participants. For instance it is a false conceit that the war against Batista was minor, since non-communist rebel contributions are minimized in official Cuban government sources. Thus the Cuban government is forced to attribute full authorship of events to Che Guevara while this is nowhere near the truth. The contributions of even major actors like Sotus, Matos, Lara, Vega, "Daniel," Frank Pais, and the Mora brothers are minimized or omitted, minor actors in exile or with low status in Cuba are ignored. In later events the contributions of such as Father John McKniff who was stunned by El Coubre explosion while providing first aid are completely ignored, and the Che who was not on the ship is given implied credit. "Ignored data is fragmentary or not commonly accessed, For example [16]; Ball, Ann 2001 Rogelio "Francisco" Gonzalez Corzo 1932 – 1961 Cuba. In : Faces of Holiness II: Modern Saints in Photos and Words Our Sunday Visitor Publishing. Division, Huntington, Indiana ISBN 0879734094 pp. 222-229. [17]. Data in material published in Cuba for the main part ignores even the "loyal" dead with rare exceptions e.g. Castillo Bueno, Reyita: The Life of a Black Cuban Woman in the Twentieth Century, as told to her daughter Daisy Rubiera Castillo, translated by Anne Mclean, (Durham: Duke University Press; London: Latin American Bureau, 2000) where there is only a note that Rayita's son is killed no context is given. The losses among the Abakuá dockworkers, can merely be inferred given that that most of the dockworkers were by long tradition members of that secret society, for so far I have not found available sources for names of the dead. Such lists, other details, access to witnesses, etc. are usually only provided to writers with a clear record of supporting the Cuban government and who can be relied upon not to criticize that government; e.g. Bertuccioli, Marie-Dominique 2004 (accessed 9-27-06) La Coubre : un bateau français victime du terrorisme contre contre Cuba [18]. El Jigue 10-16-06
D: none of us are perfect, that is why there is need of proof readers. Still as you know I am not happy with Wikipedia procedures, since my loyalty is to what I perceive and can test as approximations of truth. Thus such errors are merely pointed out with a minimum of academic sarcasm. etc Xe xe Nobody noticed my mispelling of the name of the brave fighter commonly known as Braulio Coroneaux, the correct spelling of his name (I am told) also is incorrect according to payroll information. El Jigue 10-16-06
I have some notes I've found, they are concerned with a piece in the Communist Yugoslav journal Borba. Borba's reporters had vistied Cuba in 1966 planting the failure of Cuba to industrialize its agricultural economy within five years firmly at Guevara's feet, noting "the many half-completed or empty factories". This would be a really good source for the legacy/criticism section in dealing with Guevara's economic failings - and would neutralise any dissent from leftists due to the source itself. But I can't for the life of me remember where I got it from. Does anyone know what I'm talking about here or could anyone assist?-- Zleitzen 20:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 18:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
As we now have a far more vivid description of the 1959 trial process sourced to José Vilasuso, where it is patently clear that the trials were summary, is the Time magazine sentence "The trials he conducted were "unfair", in the opinion of Ariel Dorfman" essential to the article? Ariel Dorfman?-- Zleitzen 01:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the additions are a real improvement. In regard to working on the criticism/legacy sections, such pieces are rather like doing open heart surgery in a hurricane, and not a task to relish!--
Zleitzen 10:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello all -- Someone has just "wikified" the name of CG's father in the "Family Heritage and Early Life" section. Since there is no WP article about him, this creates a red link. Does anyone see any justification for this, or should it be undone? -- Polaris999 17:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello,
It begins with this : Though he has been labeled by some as a hero, opponents of Guevara, including most of the Cuban exile community as well as refugees from other countries under communism, view him as a killer and terrorist.
That's funny no ? I quote Including most of the Cuban exile community its a joke or what ? This community, in New Jersey and Florida, are true terrorist, you need some name perhaps ? (Posada Carriles, Orlando Bosch for the most popular) some facts (October 1976, flight's explosion of Cubana Airlines, 73 killings) It's so amazing to read critics about torture when nobody say anything about the regime of Batista, and somebodys spoke about propaganda ? Let me laugh ;)
Bye and thank you for your attention.
.TSM.
TSM If those remarks of yours, which smear a whole ethnic group for alleged but not proven crimes of a few individuals are allowed to influence this section, this as close to a condemnation of this entire Wikipedia page as I have ever seen. For crying out loud, this is the "criticism section". Heck why the Che killed far more than Posada is ever said to have done. El Jigue 10-26-06
OK. I've completed a new draft of the Legacy section. What I've tried to do is combine the legacy and criticisms sections, as discussed above. When comparing writing such sections with performing surgery in a hurricane as I have above, I should have added that it is rather like performing "Frankenstein" surgery - using bits of body parts, snatches of sources, quotes and used material etc! So I apologise if the reading is slightly disjointed and that could be something to work on. Also, on re-reading the tone it may seem overly cynical to some, perhaps betraying my own POV. A few thoughts on my own rewrite.
Any thoughts are welcome. And, of course, improvements to this draft are not just expected, but demanded!-- Zleitzen 00:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
This is Archive 9 covering approximately 3 October 2006 - 28 October 2006 |
Someone has recently made modifications to the Criticism section as a result of which its prose is now even more turgid than it had been before. Please note the sentences I have marked in bold in the following paragraph: The second bolded sentence is a virtual repetition of the first! I am putting this text here to give the person who created it, or some other editor, the opportunity to revise it. Please do so expeditiously, because writing of such poor quality cannot be allowed to linger long in a Featured Article. -- Polaris999 03:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the criticism section is a bit of a mess, Polaris. Much work to be done by all to restore it to some level of credibility. These sections tend to get very shabby very quickly and are almost impossible to maintain. But I recommend an effort to identify the three or four key recurring criticisms of Guevara, and then attempt to write them using the standard of sourcing the rest of the article has reached. In my mind these key points are;
The page carries the below (unsourced) paragraph in the legacy section.
To me it reads like original research - and quite frankly a eulogy rather than an accurate encyclopedia entry. Would anyone object if I removed it? -- Zleitzen 03:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I think in Che Guevara's euology it should be pointed out that many were glad at his military incompetence and his arrogance which lead, through myriad miliatry blunders (he even got the language wrong in Bolivia), to the death of many vicious terrorists and himself. Still that does not bring back the rebel friend of mine who was killed. El Jigue 10-3-06
Guevara and his men went to Bolivia to kill to suppress all who opposed them, and establish a dogmatic marxist regime. I regret the deaths of those they killed, perhaps 150 by some counts. I feel some sorrow for Tania, as she was betrayed by her own for their own partisan purposes. Yet she was as ruthless as any other of that group. Guevara's partisans, never showed that kind of regret, and it never crossed the mind of Guevara to show mercy when dealing with those who he considered enemies or rivals. One reflects on the irony of it all, that we are expected to feel regret for the death of someone who thought of mortal hate as a virtue and is never reported to have shown mercy when he had the opportunity to kill. El Jigue 10-5-06
Humberto Fontanova quotes Guevara today ""If the nuclear missiles had remained, we would have used them against the very heart of America, including New York City," Che Guevara confided to the London Daily Worker in November 1962. "We will march the path of victory even if it costs millions of atomic victims. ... We must keep our hatred alive and fan it to paroxysm.""
[1]. El Jigue 10-5-06
I've had a tinker around in the legacy section - and attempted to covey 172's writings by quoting sourced material such as the immediate report by Latin American advisors. User:Dasondas has actually expanded the discusion of the U.S. State Department report citing the specific date and providing fuller quotes. I would argue that this isn't necessary - that we just need to get a general flavour of the comments - and we can reduce it to a few lines again. Any thoughts?-- Zleitzen 04:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's the new version, with the additions located in bold
The differences are adding the date of the report, adding "as a model revolutionary", and the mention of communists as well as leftists. The point that Hughes makes about discouraging Cuban style guerrilla warfare was perhaps questionable as it continued immediately throughout Latin America and Africa. We'll never know if groups were discouraged by Guevara's death, but we certainly know that leftists of all stripes eulogized Guevara - which was the key point of the paragraph. I'm not sure if these changes are necessary on what is already a large article, or that they radically alter the POV, but that's just my opinion.-- Zleitzen 13:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
As to "Cuban style guerrilla" warfare, Guevara never did apply that for he never found, let alone developed, the multi-class, multi-ideological, infrastructure that existed in Cuba during the war against Batista. In Cuba he parasitized such infrastructure, and often he killed those he should have considered allies, to try to purge it of all who thought differently from him. In Bolivia, as in Africa, he never knew how to cooperate, not even with the Bolivian communist party. Of course you cannot cite this because this is from my personal experience and observations; and such is not allowed in Wikipedia. So you are just going to have to wait until my book comes out xe xe El Jigue. 10-11-06
P: Thank you. I can see it now, at the edge of the dying fire the wolves of the academe gathered in a circle, their eyes wide, their tongues dripping toxic saliva in anticipation of the joys of rending their prey. Still as long as you pay for it xe xe. While you are waiting to make me rich (or infamous, despised and poverty stricken) by buying or not buying my book (:>), you can find a wide variety of opinions at the discussion section of "Aleida Guevara vs Gen. Gary Prado" at
[2]. Of course nobody gets rich selling an academic book but still I can dream. El Jigue 10-11-06
One of the most compelling comes from the words of Raul Castro himself as he describes the take over of El Segundo Frente from the escopeteros in
Castro, Raúl 1969 Diario de Campaña. Travesía de la Sierra Maestra al Segundo Frente “Frank País” In: La Sierra y el Llano. Casas de las Américas Havana pp. 201-257.
Then there are los Muchachos de Lara, Anonymous 2005 Organización de las Luchas Armadas Revolucionarias. El Crisol July 18 2005 recovered from cache. These links are no longer functional
[3]
[4]
this one is brief, but seems to still work
[5]
then there is Lara and teniente Mathius (traidor) (accessed 10/12/2006)This is G o o g l e's cache of
http://www.baibrama.cult.cu/municipios/calixto/efem12.htm as retrieved on Jul 15, 2005 02:38:36 GMT.
Apparently something went "wrong" and Orlando Lara went into disfavor. There is even mention of escopeteros being wiped out in the narrations of Massetti senior. This may well be the reference, but I have not rechecked it Masetti, Jorge Ricardo 2005 Los que luchan y los que lloran Publicado digitalmente: 8 de junio de 2005 [
http://rodolfowalsh.free.fr/article.php3?id_article=0839[
It would seem that many escopeteros, such as the Brothers Beaton, also fought in the different risings which are often lumped into "La Guerra Contra los Bandidos" and thus have been erased from official histories. By the way Corzo, Pedro 2006 Ernesto Guevara, alias "Che, "LiberPress. Buenos Aires- 8 de octubre de 2006. liberpress@gmail.com has a number of very critical things to say about the Che. You should be able to find that with a google search El Jigue 10-12-06
The article needs some reworking. Since it was featured, it has lost its shape and may need a featured article review. Some of my concerns (some are more serious than others, in no particular order):
The em dash (—) the em dash is a doubled en dash, just as the letter "m" is like a doubled letter "n". The em dash is twice as long as the en dash and about the length of the capital "M" in any particular font. The em dash is used in much the same way as a colon or set of parentheses: it can show an abrupt change in thought or be used where a period is too strong and a comma too weak. An em dash can have spaces on either side or not, depending on the writer's preference or in-house style rules; and many writers prefer to use the en dash (spaced) for this parenthetical use, with many of those also preferring a spaced en dash as a colon substitute. |
Punctuation When punctuating quoted passages, include the punctuation mark inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation mark is part of the quotation ("logical" quotations). When using " scare quotes" to indicate a phrase used ironically, the comma or period always goes outside. Double quotation marks belong at the beginning of each paragraph in a quotation of multiple paragraphs, though at the end of only the last paragraph. Examples:
|
Maintaining a separate "References" section in addition to "Notes"
It is helpful when footnotes are used that a References section also be maintained, in which the sources that were used are listed in alphabetical order. With articles that have lots of footnotes, it can become hard to see after a while exactly which sources have been used, particularly when the footnotes also contain explanatory text. A References section, which contains only citations, helps readers to see at a glance the quality of the references used. |
Templates |
That was a quick review, hopefully someone will be able to fix it, as I am currently too busy outside Wikipedia to help. -- ReyBrujo 03:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
External links
External links can be embedded in the body of an article to provide specific references. These links have no description other than an automatically generated number. For example: Sample text. [http://www.example.org]
An embedded external link should be accompanied by a
full citation in the article's References section.
|
Polaris that thing on Guisa was referenced to hard copy often to the detailed account in:
Bonachea, Ramon L and Marta San Martin 1974. The Cuban insurrection 1952-1959. Transaction Publishers, New Brunswik, New Jersey ISBN 0-87855-576-5
Castro, Fidel 1972 (editors Bonachea, Rolando E. and Nelson P. Valdéz) Revolutionary Struggle. 1947-1958. MIT Press Cambridge, Massachusetts and London ISBN 0-262-02065-3
Other useful references to this period are:
Chapelle, Dickey 1962 How Castro Won. In: Modern Guerrilla Warfare Fighting Communist Guerrilla Movements (Franklin Mark Osanka editor). Free Press of Glencoe (Macmillan) NY. pp. 325-335. Dickie took a photograph of Lieutenant Cipriano (almost certainly Cipriano Beaton firing at Maffo).
Matos, Huber, 2002. Como llego la Noche. Tusquet Editores, SA, Barcelona. ISBN 84-8310-944-1
Puebla, Teté (Brigadier General Cuban Armed Forces) 2003 Marianas in Combat: and the Mariana Grajales Women's Platoon in Cuba's Revolutionary War 1956-58, New York Pathfinder ISBN 0-87348-957-8
These had hardcopy references somehow (:>) became "delinked" Most references on Guisa are from big wigs who like Castro were hiding first behind the concrete walls of Mon Corona's Hacienda miles from the fighting, and then then went to even more inaccessible Cuevas de Santa Barbara, buried in eastern wall of the lower canyon of the Guisa River. The fighting officials were sidelined Victor Mora died poor but free in Miami, Orlando Rodriguez Puerto was charged with Castro's body guard and Universo Sanchez who as far as I know was distant from the fighting most if not all the time, and of course Braulio Cureneau was killed in the fighting. Some were killed as the fighting continued, Huber Matos of course was imprisoned......El Jigue 10-14-06.
Actions at Guisa are described in Castro, Fidel 1972 (editors Bonachea, Rolando E. and Nelson P. Valdéz) Revolutionary Struggle. 1947-1958. MIT Press Cambridge, Massachusetts and London ISBN 0-262-02065-3 pp. 439-442. Here T-17 heavy armored cars are described as tanks...BTW The Sierra Maestra is in Cuba, La Sierra Madre "nice pair of boots you have there" is in Mexico. El Jigue 10-15-06
P: One of the problems of descriptions of relatively recent Cuban history is the false coherence of "official histories," and the fragmentation of data and lack of access to archives of "non-official" participants. For instance it is a false conceit that the war against Batista was minor, since non-communist rebel contributions are minimized in official Cuban government sources. Thus the Cuban government is forced to attribute full authorship of events to Che Guevara while this is nowhere near the truth. The contributions of even major actors like Sotus, Matos, Lara, Vega, "Daniel," Frank Pais, and the Mora brothers are minimized or omitted, minor actors in exile or with low status in Cuba are ignored. In later events the contributions of such as Father John McKniff who was stunned by El Coubre explosion while providing first aid are completely ignored, and the Che who was not on the ship is given implied credit. "Ignored data is fragmentary or not commonly accessed, For example [16]; Ball, Ann 2001 Rogelio "Francisco" Gonzalez Corzo 1932 – 1961 Cuba. In : Faces of Holiness II: Modern Saints in Photos and Words Our Sunday Visitor Publishing. Division, Huntington, Indiana ISBN 0879734094 pp. 222-229. [17]. Data in material published in Cuba for the main part ignores even the "loyal" dead with rare exceptions e.g. Castillo Bueno, Reyita: The Life of a Black Cuban Woman in the Twentieth Century, as told to her daughter Daisy Rubiera Castillo, translated by Anne Mclean, (Durham: Duke University Press; London: Latin American Bureau, 2000) where there is only a note that Rayita's son is killed no context is given. The losses among the Abakuá dockworkers, can merely be inferred given that that most of the dockworkers were by long tradition members of that secret society, for so far I have not found available sources for names of the dead. Such lists, other details, access to witnesses, etc. are usually only provided to writers with a clear record of supporting the Cuban government and who can be relied upon not to criticize that government; e.g. Bertuccioli, Marie-Dominique 2004 (accessed 9-27-06) La Coubre : un bateau français victime du terrorisme contre contre Cuba [18]. El Jigue 10-16-06
D: none of us are perfect, that is why there is need of proof readers. Still as you know I am not happy with Wikipedia procedures, since my loyalty is to what I perceive and can test as approximations of truth. Thus such errors are merely pointed out with a minimum of academic sarcasm. etc Xe xe Nobody noticed my mispelling of the name of the brave fighter commonly known as Braulio Coroneaux, the correct spelling of his name (I am told) also is incorrect according to payroll information. El Jigue 10-16-06
I have some notes I've found, they are concerned with a piece in the Communist Yugoslav journal Borba. Borba's reporters had vistied Cuba in 1966 planting the failure of Cuba to industrialize its agricultural economy within five years firmly at Guevara's feet, noting "the many half-completed or empty factories". This would be a really good source for the legacy/criticism section in dealing with Guevara's economic failings - and would neutralise any dissent from leftists due to the source itself. But I can't for the life of me remember where I got it from. Does anyone know what I'm talking about here or could anyone assist?-- Zleitzen 20:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 18:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
As we now have a far more vivid description of the 1959 trial process sourced to José Vilasuso, where it is patently clear that the trials were summary, is the Time magazine sentence "The trials he conducted were "unfair", in the opinion of Ariel Dorfman" essential to the article? Ariel Dorfman?-- Zleitzen 01:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the additions are a real improvement. In regard to working on the criticism/legacy sections, such pieces are rather like doing open heart surgery in a hurricane, and not a task to relish!--
Zleitzen 10:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello all -- Someone has just "wikified" the name of CG's father in the "Family Heritage and Early Life" section. Since there is no WP article about him, this creates a red link. Does anyone see any justification for this, or should it be undone? -- Polaris999 17:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello,
It begins with this : Though he has been labeled by some as a hero, opponents of Guevara, including most of the Cuban exile community as well as refugees from other countries under communism, view him as a killer and terrorist.
That's funny no ? I quote Including most of the Cuban exile community its a joke or what ? This community, in New Jersey and Florida, are true terrorist, you need some name perhaps ? (Posada Carriles, Orlando Bosch for the most popular) some facts (October 1976, flight's explosion of Cubana Airlines, 73 killings) It's so amazing to read critics about torture when nobody say anything about the regime of Batista, and somebodys spoke about propaganda ? Let me laugh ;)
Bye and thank you for your attention.
.TSM.
TSM If those remarks of yours, which smear a whole ethnic group for alleged but not proven crimes of a few individuals are allowed to influence this section, this as close to a condemnation of this entire Wikipedia page as I have ever seen. For crying out loud, this is the "criticism section". Heck why the Che killed far more than Posada is ever said to have done. El Jigue 10-26-06
OK. I've completed a new draft of the Legacy section. What I've tried to do is combine the legacy and criticisms sections, as discussed above. When comparing writing such sections with performing surgery in a hurricane as I have above, I should have added that it is rather like performing "Frankenstein" surgery - using bits of body parts, snatches of sources, quotes and used material etc! So I apologise if the reading is slightly disjointed and that could be something to work on. Also, on re-reading the tone it may seem overly cynical to some, perhaps betraying my own POV. A few thoughts on my own rewrite.
Any thoughts are welcome. And, of course, improvements to this draft are not just expected, but demanded!-- Zleitzen 00:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)