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![]() | This is Archive 8 covering approximately 19 Sep 2006 - 3 October 2006 |
I see that "physician" was recently removed from the lead. He was certainly degreed in medicine. I don't know the relevant considerations in the relevant countries, and I know that these terms vary from country to country. Can someone please come up with a term that is appropriate, and put it back in the lead? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 23:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
In the systems of medical education common in Latin America, it is my understanding that the title "Doctor" refers to completion of first four years of theoretical studies, after secondary studies. Clinical experience training which usually takes about three more additional years makes a Doctor into a "Medico." It seems from his biography that by this definition Guevara was a Doctor (if he completed the first four years) but not a Medico. El Jigue 9-17-06
You have this backwards. "Medico" is the profession - physician. "Doctor" is an especially learned person who has additional postgraduate education. It´s sort of like having a Ph.D. in addition to your M.D. in the States. But in practice all physicians are called "Doctor" or "Doctora," even if they don´t have a doctorate. Regarding Che, I find his status as a physican to be nearly irrelevant and not worthy of appearing in the opening paragraph. He spent far more effort stealing, torturing, and executing than he ever did as a healer. - PJ 11-2-06
References to 7th year of Medicine in Argentina include: "parte de la currícula de séptimo año de la Carrera de Medicina." [1] "Alumno de 7º año de la carrera de Médico" [2] "Pasantía Rural como actividad para el 7º año de la carrera de médico. " [3]. Thus it seems that my statement above is consistent with medical education in Argentina. Thus, it follows logically that Ernesto "Che" Guevara had completed only about four of the required seven years of studies that would have given him the degree of Médico. Thus I suggest that this distinction ("As a young man studying medicine, hoping to later become a doctor") has place in his biography. However, the statement that "Upon his return to Argentina, he completed his medical studies" seems incorrect. As is now my usual practice I will not change the text, but merely smile at yet another Wikipedia error. El Jigue 9-18-06
While the common English translation of Guevara's motocycle's name, La Poderosa, is "The Mighty One", I feel it's an inaccurate translation. A literal translation would be "The Powerful One" as "Poder" means "Power" in Spanish. Though another translation (which makes more sense to me) would be "The Almighty." In religious use God is often referred to (mostly in prayer) as "Dios todo Poderoso" ("God Almighty"). I feel this is something that should be corrected. "The Mighty One" is the accepted translation in the biographies I've read, and though it makes insignificant difference, I felt like pointing it out. Throw 08:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Would I be "party pooper" if I pointed out the darn thing broke down and was apparently abandoned. El Jigue 9-15-06
Someone recently inserted the adjective "communist" into the sentence below to describe Sartre; no citation is provided. (The source note at the end of the sentence is one that I had put there many months ago: It is a source for the comment by Sartre, not for the description of him as "communist".)
I would like to hear from other editors whether they consider "communist" a correct description of Sartre, or whether the adjective should be removed and the sentence returned to its status quo ante. Thank you. -- Polaris999 17:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
It is most certainly not our place to speculate who "sounds like a Communist". If Sartre was not a member of the CP, the adjective does not apply. Period. End of story. Some other adjective might apply, like "fellow-traveller" or "Communist-inspired". But that would only be necessary for someone with a lot less prominence than Sartre, where context was needed. People can read his article for more discussion of Sartre, if needed. In fact, I think the adjectives "French" and "philosopher" are a bit superfluous here also (arguably, he's better read as a novelist or journalist, for example... though this is hardly the place for that clarification). In an article about Guevara, we need not use any adjectives to insinuate what Sartre was or was not specifically; he's relevant just for the quote, and needs no more than his name to introduce it. LotLE× talk 14:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that when communists (note lower c) organize into parties they tend to have overt or red (Alba nomenclature) and black or covert members. Alba, Víctor 1968 Politics and the labor movement in Latin America. Stanford University Press, Stanford, California. ASIN B0006BNYGK El Jigue 9-23-06
Thus, while it is easy to tag a "card carrying" Communist it is far more difficult to define the association of a communist to this ideology. Thus one can argue that Sartre was not a Communist and yet still was a communist. Such cases still raise interest as aging communists in Cuba, apparently seeking some kind of immortality in written history, reveal and/or enhance their original covert status as Communist Party members (PSP) e.g. García Verdecia, José (pepe “El Bravo”) accessed 9-21-06 Testimonios de las luchas del campesinado en nuestro municipio Dirección de Cultura, Colombia, Las Tunas, Cuba. Jueves 21 de septiembre del 2006 [5]. El Jigue 9-23-06
Xe xe that response above is most amusing, it sounds as if Wikipedia is run by Dean Wormer of the movie "Animal House", with his double secret codicles. Well this most apt demonstration of a ban on internal consistency, supports my thesis that Wikipedia is frequently and selectively biased. If you want a better product you better do some of the work and look up the same reference as is cited, xe xe El Jigue 9-22-06
Since nobody seems ready even to do the smallest bit of work or is it "... each according to his ability" (:>. Here we go: "he was a political polemicist who embraced Marxism and Communism, supporting the purges of Stalin and Mao. In the latter years of his life he marched in the streets for Third World liberation and exhausted himself intellectually in the hopeless task of reconciling existentialism, Marxism, and psychoanalysis." [6]. Or " Dopo l'adesione al comunismo, Sartre trascorse il resto della sua vita nel tentativo di riconciliare le idee esistenzialistiche con i principi del marxismo, convinto che le forze socio-economiche determinino il corso dell'esistenza umana." [7]. Or perhaps "Sartre, Jean-Paul philosopher and hero of the French Resistance, lived an unconventional and full life defining and popularizing the existentialist philosophy that says humans are frighteningly free but responsible for the choices they make. (Phototheque Hachette) French thinker born in 1905, engagement philosopher, existentialist, writer and dramaturge, author of " Being and Nothingness ," "Huis Clos," " Les Mouches ," "Les Mains Sales," "La Nausee," "Critique of Dialectic Reason," and " Les Mots " for which he received, in 1960, the nobel prize that he declined; director of the forbidden "Cause du peuple" and " Liberation " until 1974. * He took part in the French Resistance and was taken prisoner in second world war.He joined the Communist Party (PC) because of the need to take an active part in the fight for the proletarian. *With Simone de Beauvoir , he traveled to Cuba China Russia Africa , to promote the revolutions." [8] xe xe Now I will lay back and watch revisionists attack each point and then defying reason say Sartre was not a communist xe xe El Jigue 9-22-06
Darn my old memory what "Dean Wormer" said was:
"[Dean Wormer's plotting to get rid of Delta House]
Greg Marmalard: But Delta's already on probation.
Dean Vernon Wormer: They are? Well, as of this moment, they're on DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION! "
[9]
Codicle [10], is an archaic spelling for codicil [11] it means "little code or law." That is the trouble of being multilingual one sustitutes words in one language into another. Long agao Martin Albert told me that would happen and it would get worse when I got older, he was correct.
Martin L. Albert and Loraine K. Obler 1978 Perspectives In Neurolinguistics : The Bilingual Brain : Neuropsychological and Neurolinguistic Aspects of Bilingualism Academic Press ISBN 0120487500
This brings us to the question of exclusive use of translations, which bring their own conscious and unconscious baggage which cause differences between the original and the translation. I suggest that where possible, both the original and the translated versions be cited. For instance Mary Alice Waters' translation of "Episodes of the Cuban Revolutionary War"
ISBN
0873488245 is affected both by her marxist ideology, and her lack of familiarity with the Cuban milieu, especially that of the Sierra Maestra and ethnic roots. To Waters the Sierra Montuno, --inheritor to the Taíno, Cimarrón and Mambí cultures wild, armed and dangerous-- is a mere peasant. In addition, one should take into consideration the authors’ own biases, Guevara was a tireless self-promoter, as were and still are many powerful figures in history, from Ramses II to Columbus, and Batista to Kissinger. El Jigue 9-23-06
Not to rock the boat of a clearly established and strong article... but the sizable list of Spanish language external links seems potentially unnecessary and potentially contrary to the English Wikipedia guideline on foreign language external links:
Articles are requested to heed this guideline, so are all these Spanish links "official" or critical enough? -- Ds13 03:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes let us rid ourselves of the language of the nations in question, except of course those who favorably describe Guevara..... Ay Vey! Although Guevara's English was said to be good [13],, as far as I know he never wrote in this language... xe xe Such is the nonsense of Wikipedia El Jigue 9-22-06
Interesting suggestion " Spanish links we do include should be the most official and critical about the subject." I interpret that to mean that only Castro government data would be allowed. Go ahead that only helps support my thesis that Wikipedia Cuban pages have fallen into the hands of Castro government supporters, El Jigue 9-23-06
Foreign-language sitesSince this is the English Wikipedia, webpages in English are highly preferred. Linking to non-English pages may still be useful for readers in some cases:
In such cases indicate what language the site is in. For example: You can also indicate the language by putting a language icon after the link. This is done using Template:Languageicon by typing {{Languageicon|<language code>|<language name>}}. Alternatively, you may type {{xx icon}}, where xx is the language code. See Category:Language icons for a list of these templates and the list of ISO 639 codes. |
Foreign language linksEnglish language links are strongly preferred in the English-language Wikipedia. It may be appropriate to have a link to a foreign language site, such as when an official site is unavailable in English, or when the link is to the subject's text in its original language. When the external links are to sites in multiple languages, it can be useful to label them with language icons, including labeling the English-language sites in the list with {{ en icon}}, which shows as (in English). These are available for most languages, and follow the usual two-letter language codes: for example, {{ es icon}}, {{ fr icon}}, etc. |
I'll also point to "such as" in the quoted passage from the Manual of Style. These examples are intended to be illustrative, not exhaustive. In any event, this is a much fought-over issue in the Manual of Style, and, from experience, there is not a strong consensus on this. I'd be very hesitant to remove any link just on the basis of what language it is in unless the equivalent is available in English, in which case the English version certainly wins. - Jmabel | Talk 19:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and I agree that the Spanish Wikipedia is not relevant to the case. From my experience, their standards are simply lower. I'm involved in a lot of translation, and a typical Spanish-language Featured Article wouldn't even meet our Good Article criteria. - Jmabel | Talk 19:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Guevara's constant self promotion and denigration of rival associates or victims of his executions causes problems in evaluation of his effect on history. For instance in Santa Clara, in "La ofensiva," in the Congo etc, his role is self-enhanced. Details such as when he left his men in the open on the banks of la Magadalena River (Cuban river not Colombian) when facing the well trained troops of Sanchez Mosqueda, or when he came too late to support Daniel in la ofensiva and Daniel died. Or after Ubero.when he riding a mule he belittles the urban guerrillas of Frank Pais, because these urban fighters could not move fast enough to please him in the mountains. We often find that the most cited articles are those that were written by Guevara, and thus resulting product of this biased information gives a "untrue" version of events. One of the matters that is so sadly amusing is the common criticism of the Bolivian Rangers for executing him, while ignoring the many times before when he executed his perceived enemies or rivals. El Jigue 9-26-06
whoops! forgot to sign. aahhhh, the powerful tilde.
Goatboy95 20:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Canderra you have overlooked the Arab/Moorish Chronicles from Spain. And of course the common prayer which went more or less: "From the fury of the Vikings save us our lord." Then have you read the Viking Saga's as pertains to the new world, even the Viking women were killing each other. El Jigue 9-29-06
C: Ay vey then the Vikings were not warlike in your view and I fail to follow your argument re-Vikings. The Viking when raiding tended to kill everybody they could catch and were not worth ransom, including all classes and often in gruesome ways. The independence of Viking women is surely not proven by their murderous deeds, for such have been occurred in subservient women since at least the time of Clytemnestra (nice carpet you have there let us roll it up eh what!!). And don't bring up Geordie speaking, manglewurzle eaters, since King Canute the Dane (1017 - 1035) was well on his way to civilization, that is if such ever existed in Yorkshire. xe xe El Jigue 9-30-06
Your arguments are also flawed in the sense that the Che, who was in my view a rather a dull ideologue and not too brave a tactician, was not all powerful and there are plenty of people who chronicle his misdeeds. What is needed is a balanced presentation of both sides. El Jigue 9-30-06
C: Those scholarly sources were not in the neigborhood. I was. Besides the bias of many of those sources is legendary. El Jigue 10-02-06
Sorry to nitpick but why is living "rough" in quotations? May I remove it without offending anyone? grendelsmother 03:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
![]() | This is Archive 8 covering approximately 19 Sep 2006 - 3 October 2006 |
I see that "physician" was recently removed from the lead. He was certainly degreed in medicine. I don't know the relevant considerations in the relevant countries, and I know that these terms vary from country to country. Can someone please come up with a term that is appropriate, and put it back in the lead? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 23:03, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
In the systems of medical education common in Latin America, it is my understanding that the title "Doctor" refers to completion of first four years of theoretical studies, after secondary studies. Clinical experience training which usually takes about three more additional years makes a Doctor into a "Medico." It seems from his biography that by this definition Guevara was a Doctor (if he completed the first four years) but not a Medico. El Jigue 9-17-06
You have this backwards. "Medico" is the profession - physician. "Doctor" is an especially learned person who has additional postgraduate education. It´s sort of like having a Ph.D. in addition to your M.D. in the States. But in practice all physicians are called "Doctor" or "Doctora," even if they don´t have a doctorate. Regarding Che, I find his status as a physican to be nearly irrelevant and not worthy of appearing in the opening paragraph. He spent far more effort stealing, torturing, and executing than he ever did as a healer. - PJ 11-2-06
References to 7th year of Medicine in Argentina include: "parte de la currícula de séptimo año de la Carrera de Medicina." [1] "Alumno de 7º año de la carrera de Médico" [2] "Pasantía Rural como actividad para el 7º año de la carrera de médico. " [3]. Thus it seems that my statement above is consistent with medical education in Argentina. Thus, it follows logically that Ernesto "Che" Guevara had completed only about four of the required seven years of studies that would have given him the degree of Médico. Thus I suggest that this distinction ("As a young man studying medicine, hoping to later become a doctor") has place in his biography. However, the statement that "Upon his return to Argentina, he completed his medical studies" seems incorrect. As is now my usual practice I will not change the text, but merely smile at yet another Wikipedia error. El Jigue 9-18-06
While the common English translation of Guevara's motocycle's name, La Poderosa, is "The Mighty One", I feel it's an inaccurate translation. A literal translation would be "The Powerful One" as "Poder" means "Power" in Spanish. Though another translation (which makes more sense to me) would be "The Almighty." In religious use God is often referred to (mostly in prayer) as "Dios todo Poderoso" ("God Almighty"). I feel this is something that should be corrected. "The Mighty One" is the accepted translation in the biographies I've read, and though it makes insignificant difference, I felt like pointing it out. Throw 08:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Would I be "party pooper" if I pointed out the darn thing broke down and was apparently abandoned. El Jigue 9-15-06
Someone recently inserted the adjective "communist" into the sentence below to describe Sartre; no citation is provided. (The source note at the end of the sentence is one that I had put there many months ago: It is a source for the comment by Sartre, not for the description of him as "communist".)
I would like to hear from other editors whether they consider "communist" a correct description of Sartre, or whether the adjective should be removed and the sentence returned to its status quo ante. Thank you. -- Polaris999 17:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
It is most certainly not our place to speculate who "sounds like a Communist". If Sartre was not a member of the CP, the adjective does not apply. Period. End of story. Some other adjective might apply, like "fellow-traveller" or "Communist-inspired". But that would only be necessary for someone with a lot less prominence than Sartre, where context was needed. People can read his article for more discussion of Sartre, if needed. In fact, I think the adjectives "French" and "philosopher" are a bit superfluous here also (arguably, he's better read as a novelist or journalist, for example... though this is hardly the place for that clarification). In an article about Guevara, we need not use any adjectives to insinuate what Sartre was or was not specifically; he's relevant just for the quote, and needs no more than his name to introduce it. LotLE× talk 14:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that when communists (note lower c) organize into parties they tend to have overt or red (Alba nomenclature) and black or covert members. Alba, Víctor 1968 Politics and the labor movement in Latin America. Stanford University Press, Stanford, California. ASIN B0006BNYGK El Jigue 9-23-06
Thus, while it is easy to tag a "card carrying" Communist it is far more difficult to define the association of a communist to this ideology. Thus one can argue that Sartre was not a Communist and yet still was a communist. Such cases still raise interest as aging communists in Cuba, apparently seeking some kind of immortality in written history, reveal and/or enhance their original covert status as Communist Party members (PSP) e.g. García Verdecia, José (pepe “El Bravo”) accessed 9-21-06 Testimonios de las luchas del campesinado en nuestro municipio Dirección de Cultura, Colombia, Las Tunas, Cuba. Jueves 21 de septiembre del 2006 [5]. El Jigue 9-23-06
Xe xe that response above is most amusing, it sounds as if Wikipedia is run by Dean Wormer of the movie "Animal House", with his double secret codicles. Well this most apt demonstration of a ban on internal consistency, supports my thesis that Wikipedia is frequently and selectively biased. If you want a better product you better do some of the work and look up the same reference as is cited, xe xe El Jigue 9-22-06
Since nobody seems ready even to do the smallest bit of work or is it "... each according to his ability" (:>. Here we go: "he was a political polemicist who embraced Marxism and Communism, supporting the purges of Stalin and Mao. In the latter years of his life he marched in the streets for Third World liberation and exhausted himself intellectually in the hopeless task of reconciling existentialism, Marxism, and psychoanalysis." [6]. Or " Dopo l'adesione al comunismo, Sartre trascorse il resto della sua vita nel tentativo di riconciliare le idee esistenzialistiche con i principi del marxismo, convinto che le forze socio-economiche determinino il corso dell'esistenza umana." [7]. Or perhaps "Sartre, Jean-Paul philosopher and hero of the French Resistance, lived an unconventional and full life defining and popularizing the existentialist philosophy that says humans are frighteningly free but responsible for the choices they make. (Phototheque Hachette) French thinker born in 1905, engagement philosopher, existentialist, writer and dramaturge, author of " Being and Nothingness ," "Huis Clos," " Les Mouches ," "Les Mains Sales," "La Nausee," "Critique of Dialectic Reason," and " Les Mots " for which he received, in 1960, the nobel prize that he declined; director of the forbidden "Cause du peuple" and " Liberation " until 1974. * He took part in the French Resistance and was taken prisoner in second world war.He joined the Communist Party (PC) because of the need to take an active part in the fight for the proletarian. *With Simone de Beauvoir , he traveled to Cuba China Russia Africa , to promote the revolutions." [8] xe xe Now I will lay back and watch revisionists attack each point and then defying reason say Sartre was not a communist xe xe El Jigue 9-22-06
Darn my old memory what "Dean Wormer" said was:
"[Dean Wormer's plotting to get rid of Delta House]
Greg Marmalard: But Delta's already on probation.
Dean Vernon Wormer: They are? Well, as of this moment, they're on DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION! "
[9]
Codicle [10], is an archaic spelling for codicil [11] it means "little code or law." That is the trouble of being multilingual one sustitutes words in one language into another. Long agao Martin Albert told me that would happen and it would get worse when I got older, he was correct.
Martin L. Albert and Loraine K. Obler 1978 Perspectives In Neurolinguistics : The Bilingual Brain : Neuropsychological and Neurolinguistic Aspects of Bilingualism Academic Press ISBN 0120487500
This brings us to the question of exclusive use of translations, which bring their own conscious and unconscious baggage which cause differences between the original and the translation. I suggest that where possible, both the original and the translated versions be cited. For instance Mary Alice Waters' translation of "Episodes of the Cuban Revolutionary War"
ISBN
0873488245 is affected both by her marxist ideology, and her lack of familiarity with the Cuban milieu, especially that of the Sierra Maestra and ethnic roots. To Waters the Sierra Montuno, --inheritor to the Taíno, Cimarrón and Mambí cultures wild, armed and dangerous-- is a mere peasant. In addition, one should take into consideration the authors’ own biases, Guevara was a tireless self-promoter, as were and still are many powerful figures in history, from Ramses II to Columbus, and Batista to Kissinger. El Jigue 9-23-06
Not to rock the boat of a clearly established and strong article... but the sizable list of Spanish language external links seems potentially unnecessary and potentially contrary to the English Wikipedia guideline on foreign language external links:
Articles are requested to heed this guideline, so are all these Spanish links "official" or critical enough? -- Ds13 03:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes let us rid ourselves of the language of the nations in question, except of course those who favorably describe Guevara..... Ay Vey! Although Guevara's English was said to be good [13],, as far as I know he never wrote in this language... xe xe Such is the nonsense of Wikipedia El Jigue 9-22-06
Interesting suggestion " Spanish links we do include should be the most official and critical about the subject." I interpret that to mean that only Castro government data would be allowed. Go ahead that only helps support my thesis that Wikipedia Cuban pages have fallen into the hands of Castro government supporters, El Jigue 9-23-06
Foreign-language sitesSince this is the English Wikipedia, webpages in English are highly preferred. Linking to non-English pages may still be useful for readers in some cases:
In such cases indicate what language the site is in. For example: You can also indicate the language by putting a language icon after the link. This is done using Template:Languageicon by typing {{Languageicon|<language code>|<language name>}}. Alternatively, you may type {{xx icon}}, where xx is the language code. See Category:Language icons for a list of these templates and the list of ISO 639 codes. |
Foreign language linksEnglish language links are strongly preferred in the English-language Wikipedia. It may be appropriate to have a link to a foreign language site, such as when an official site is unavailable in English, or when the link is to the subject's text in its original language. When the external links are to sites in multiple languages, it can be useful to label them with language icons, including labeling the English-language sites in the list with {{ en icon}}, which shows as (in English). These are available for most languages, and follow the usual two-letter language codes: for example, {{ es icon}}, {{ fr icon}}, etc. |
I'll also point to "such as" in the quoted passage from the Manual of Style. These examples are intended to be illustrative, not exhaustive. In any event, this is a much fought-over issue in the Manual of Style, and, from experience, there is not a strong consensus on this. I'd be very hesitant to remove any link just on the basis of what language it is in unless the equivalent is available in English, in which case the English version certainly wins. - Jmabel | Talk 19:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and I agree that the Spanish Wikipedia is not relevant to the case. From my experience, their standards are simply lower. I'm involved in a lot of translation, and a typical Spanish-language Featured Article wouldn't even meet our Good Article criteria. - Jmabel | Talk 19:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Guevara's constant self promotion and denigration of rival associates or victims of his executions causes problems in evaluation of his effect on history. For instance in Santa Clara, in "La ofensiva," in the Congo etc, his role is self-enhanced. Details such as when he left his men in the open on the banks of la Magadalena River (Cuban river not Colombian) when facing the well trained troops of Sanchez Mosqueda, or when he came too late to support Daniel in la ofensiva and Daniel died. Or after Ubero.when he riding a mule he belittles the urban guerrillas of Frank Pais, because these urban fighters could not move fast enough to please him in the mountains. We often find that the most cited articles are those that were written by Guevara, and thus resulting product of this biased information gives a "untrue" version of events. One of the matters that is so sadly amusing is the common criticism of the Bolivian Rangers for executing him, while ignoring the many times before when he executed his perceived enemies or rivals. El Jigue 9-26-06
whoops! forgot to sign. aahhhh, the powerful tilde.
Goatboy95 20:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Canderra you have overlooked the Arab/Moorish Chronicles from Spain. And of course the common prayer which went more or less: "From the fury of the Vikings save us our lord." Then have you read the Viking Saga's as pertains to the new world, even the Viking women were killing each other. El Jigue 9-29-06
C: Ay vey then the Vikings were not warlike in your view and I fail to follow your argument re-Vikings. The Viking when raiding tended to kill everybody they could catch and were not worth ransom, including all classes and often in gruesome ways. The independence of Viking women is surely not proven by their murderous deeds, for such have been occurred in subservient women since at least the time of Clytemnestra (nice carpet you have there let us roll it up eh what!!). And don't bring up Geordie speaking, manglewurzle eaters, since King Canute the Dane (1017 - 1035) was well on his way to civilization, that is if such ever existed in Yorkshire. xe xe El Jigue 9-30-06
Your arguments are also flawed in the sense that the Che, who was in my view a rather a dull ideologue and not too brave a tactician, was not all powerful and there are plenty of people who chronicle his misdeeds. What is needed is a balanced presentation of both sides. El Jigue 9-30-06
C: Those scholarly sources were not in the neigborhood. I was. Besides the bias of many of those sources is legendary. El Jigue 10-02-06
Sorry to nitpick but why is living "rough" in quotations? May I remove it without offending anyone? grendelsmother 03:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)