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![]() | This is Archive 7 covering approximately 29 June 2006 - 19 Sep 2006 |
I have just noticed that a short time ago a wikipedian entered a comment re CG's last words in an incorrect location here on the Talk page, so I am creating this as a new topic and will transfer his comment into it. Polaris999 05:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
HEYYYYYYY those arent che guevara´s final words!! NO WAYY!his last words in Spanish were "dejeme ponerme de pie!, y por favor sostenga la pistola fuertemente!.... usted esta por matar a un hombre!" that in Enlgish would be: "let me stand up... please hold the gun firmly... you are about to kill a man!". Anyone who has read about Che Guevara knows this... i hope it will be changed.... thanx felix
"Serenese y apunte bien! Va usted a matar un hombre!" (Calm down and aims well! you are going to kill a man ..) According to la Higuera teacher. http://www.flickr.com/photos/frederico_mendes/14874024/in/set-279653/ Ericd 23:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
At 17:27, 9 July 2006, User:Sniggity inserted the following two sentences into the "Capture and Execution" sub-section:
There are some problems with this text. First, it is not properly referenced as per the WP:CITE criteria. When adding information to this featured article, please provide a source that meets Wikipedia standards as established in WP:V and then create:
Second, one point all sources seem to be in agreement about concerning Guevara's final hours is the fact that Félix Rodríguez arrived in La Higuera aboard a helicopter with Colonel Zenteno early on the morning of 09 October. There is no record of his having been in La Higuera and spoken with Guevara the evening before (see, for example, Taibo, Paco Ignacio II. Ernesto Guevara, también conocido como el Che, page 701). Guevara was executed at approximately 1:10 pm on 09 October, so he was not alive the evening of 09 October to be speaking with anyone. Therefore, in order for the sentence you have inserted to be correct (assuming that you heard it clearly) either Rodríguez has changed his story after all these years, or the History Channel misrepresented what he said. It is important to document which case applies if this sentence is going to be added to the article. Thank you -- Polaris999 22:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
To my disappointment, no one has taken up the single most important issue for this article. I will repeat:
We need documentation on the statement attributed in this article to Guevara that had the nuclear missiles of the Cuban Missile Crisis been under Cuban rather than Soviet control, they (presumably meaning he and Castro) would have fired them against major US cities. No other aspect of this man's life is as important. If it is accurate, and he seriously favored the direct murder of millions in an act that would certainly have triggered all-out nuclear holocaust and the death of billions and a collapse of civilization, it is safe to say that history will eventually see him for what he must have been: a dangerous, malevolent lunatic. If it is not accurate, the debate will go on... I will be trying to ferret out sources on this, but my time and energy is severely limited due to illness. I urge others to find reliable references and link to or quote from them on this Talk page so we can craft a definitive paragraph on this point for the article.
Sorry for the repetition, but all these other issues are tiny compared to this. JDG 01:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, it might be nice to track down the particular citation in the Daily Worker. Right now, the quote trails off oddly in the footnote "…clearly a man of great intelligence though I thought he was crackers from the way he went on about the." I believe only James Joyce is allowed to end a sentence with "the". - Jmabel | Talk 18:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The only problem I see here is that the Wikipedia version claims that Che said he would attack major US cities, while the citation itself says nothing about cities. Where is the quote about attacking major cities? If someone has it, please post a link or copy the citation with respective quote. BBUCommander
Polaris asked me to give my impression of recent changes to the article. I don't have the focus to really give this right now, but one thing leaps out: the lead section has become much longer than is normal for a biography, even of a major figure with a complicated life. For examples of other featured biographies of political figures, consider Attila the Hun, Claudius Joan of Arc, (all much shorter); Armand Jean du Plessis, Cardinal Richelieu (somewhat shorter); Mahatma Ghandi is the only other one I see that is about this long. I'm sure that pretty much everything there is echoed below; I'm almost certain it could be said more succinctly in the lead, and perhaps some of it omitted from the lead, but I don't have the energy to take it on right now. - Jmabel | Talk 01:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Lead section before changes made by
User:Kwertii Some time later, Guevara became a member of Fidel Castro's paramilitary 26th of July Movement, which seized power in Cuba in 1959. After serving in various important posts in the new government and writing a number of articles and books on the theory and practice of guerrilla warfare, Guevara left Cuba in 1965 with the intention of fomenting revolutions first in the Congo-Kinshasa (later named the Democratic Republic of the Congo) and then in Bolivia, where he was captured in a CIA/ U.S. Army Special Forces-organized military operation [1]. Guevara died at the hands of the Bolivian Army in La Higuera near Vallegrande on October 9, 1967. Participants in, and witnesses to, the events of his final hours testify that his captors executed him without trial. After his death, Guevara became an icon of socialist revolutionary movements worldwide. An Alberto Korda photo of Guevara (shown) has received wide distribution and modification. The Maryland Institute College of Art called this picture "the most famous photograph in the world and a symbol of the 20th century." [2] |
Lead section written by
User:Kwertii As a young man studying medicine in Buenos Aires, Guevara travelled rough on a motorcycle tour of Latin America. His travels brought him into direct contact with the severe poverty that afflicts many people in the region, a sharp contrast to the well-off surroundings in which he had been raised. He moved to Guatemala, where he became personally involved in a leftist social revolution under Guatemala's first democratically-elected president, Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán. The various socialist reforms proved troublesome for American companies doing business in Guatemala, and Guzmán was overthrown in 1954 by a right-wing military coup orchestrated by the American CIA. The experience radicalized Guevara; he became convinced that only a revolution by force against capitalism and against the influence of the United States in particular could remedy Latin America's extreme economic inequality. Guevara continued his travels through Latin America. In Mexico, he met Raul and Fidel Castro, who were planning a revolution in their native Cuba from abroad against US-leaning General Fulgencio Batista, who had assumed power years before following a military coup. Che joined the brothers' paramilitary 26th of July Movement. Though only 12 members survived the group's disastrous initial landing in Cuba, they finally overthrew Batista's government on January 1, 1959. Che served in various important posts in the new government, and wrote a number of articles and books on the theory and practice of guerrilla warfare. Very influential with Cuban leader Fidel Castro, Che advocated a hardline anti-capitalist foreign policy involving active efforts to create further socialist revolutions abroad and preparation for direct military conflict with the United States. He grew increasingly disillusioned with the Soviet Union, especially after the Soviets agreed to remove their long-range nuclear missiles from Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis, which he viewed as a betrayal. Guevara then went on several diplomatic missions to other Third World countries in an unsuccessful attempt to forge an anti-capitalist political and economic bloc that was not aligned with the Soviet Union. Guevara resigned his government posts and left Cuba in 1965 with the intention of directly fomenting Marxist revolutions abroad himself. He first went to the Congo-Kinshasa (later called the Democratic Republic of the Congo), and then to Bolivia. He did not meet with the widespread popular support he had expected in either country, and both operations were unsuccessful. He was captured in Bolivia by a CIA/ U.S. Army Special Forces-organized military operation [3] and was executed shortly thereafter, in La Higuera near Vallegrande on October 9, 1967. Participants in, and witnesses to, the events of his final hours testify that his captors executed him without trial. After his death, Guevara became an icon of socialist revolutionary movements worldwide. An Alberto Korda photo of Guevara (shown) has received wide distribution and modification. The Maryland Institute College of Art called this picture "the most famous photograph in the world and a symbol of the 20th century." [4] |
Opening paragraph
For example:
|
Opening paragraph
|
These changes seem perfectly reasonable to me. Kwertii 02:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm coming at this from the persective of someone who knows little about the subject, I was reading to learn and noticed a few things. In the "Guatemala" section, a woman "Hilda Gadea" is introduced as Che's main political contact. The next reference is to Che selling her jewelry, it isn't until later in the "Cuba" section that they are noted as being in a relationship. The sentence directly after the jewelry selling is "Then, on May 15, 1954, a shipment of high-quality Skoda infantry and light artillery weapons sent from Communist Czechoslovakia for the Arbenz Government arrived in Puerto Barrios aboard the Swedish ship Alfhem.", but there is no clear reference as to why this is particulary important to the article, and the paragraph goes on talking about tonnage of this shipment and Che going to get a new Visa. I can kind of connect the dots, but it seems to me a bit confusing the way it is written.-- Trees4est 02:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I read in this talk page a notice regarding the size of the article (80KB at the time). The article is now 96KB, that's almost THREE times the recommended article size. My head hurts from reading. -- Iafrate 20:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Other than shortening the introduction (which seems to be an unpopular proposal), it's really hard to imagine what to cut. This has become (with the inevitable limitiation of successfully "digesting" new contributions) a really good piece on Guevara. Iafrate, any concrete suggestions for trimming? - Jmabel | Talk 00:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Z: you might concentrate your efforts on content rather than style, as it is this article quite biased. For example it does not even full admit Guevara's role as executioner, yet "cries like a baby" when talking about his death. El Jigue 8-23-06
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
![]() | This is Archive 7 covering approximately 29 June 2006 - 19 Sep 2006 |
I have just noticed that a short time ago a wikipedian entered a comment re CG's last words in an incorrect location here on the Talk page, so I am creating this as a new topic and will transfer his comment into it. Polaris999 05:50, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
HEYYYYYYY those arent che guevara´s final words!! NO WAYY!his last words in Spanish were "dejeme ponerme de pie!, y por favor sostenga la pistola fuertemente!.... usted esta por matar a un hombre!" that in Enlgish would be: "let me stand up... please hold the gun firmly... you are about to kill a man!". Anyone who has read about Che Guevara knows this... i hope it will be changed.... thanx felix
"Serenese y apunte bien! Va usted a matar un hombre!" (Calm down and aims well! you are going to kill a man ..) According to la Higuera teacher. http://www.flickr.com/photos/frederico_mendes/14874024/in/set-279653/ Ericd 23:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
At 17:27, 9 July 2006, User:Sniggity inserted the following two sentences into the "Capture and Execution" sub-section:
There are some problems with this text. First, it is not properly referenced as per the WP:CITE criteria. When adding information to this featured article, please provide a source that meets Wikipedia standards as established in WP:V and then create:
Second, one point all sources seem to be in agreement about concerning Guevara's final hours is the fact that Félix Rodríguez arrived in La Higuera aboard a helicopter with Colonel Zenteno early on the morning of 09 October. There is no record of his having been in La Higuera and spoken with Guevara the evening before (see, for example, Taibo, Paco Ignacio II. Ernesto Guevara, también conocido como el Che, page 701). Guevara was executed at approximately 1:10 pm on 09 October, so he was not alive the evening of 09 October to be speaking with anyone. Therefore, in order for the sentence you have inserted to be correct (assuming that you heard it clearly) either Rodríguez has changed his story after all these years, or the History Channel misrepresented what he said. It is important to document which case applies if this sentence is going to be added to the article. Thank you -- Polaris999 22:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
To my disappointment, no one has taken up the single most important issue for this article. I will repeat:
We need documentation on the statement attributed in this article to Guevara that had the nuclear missiles of the Cuban Missile Crisis been under Cuban rather than Soviet control, they (presumably meaning he and Castro) would have fired them against major US cities. No other aspect of this man's life is as important. If it is accurate, and he seriously favored the direct murder of millions in an act that would certainly have triggered all-out nuclear holocaust and the death of billions and a collapse of civilization, it is safe to say that history will eventually see him for what he must have been: a dangerous, malevolent lunatic. If it is not accurate, the debate will go on... I will be trying to ferret out sources on this, but my time and energy is severely limited due to illness. I urge others to find reliable references and link to or quote from them on this Talk page so we can craft a definitive paragraph on this point for the article.
Sorry for the repetition, but all these other issues are tiny compared to this. JDG 01:49, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, it might be nice to track down the particular citation in the Daily Worker. Right now, the quote trails off oddly in the footnote "…clearly a man of great intelligence though I thought he was crackers from the way he went on about the." I believe only James Joyce is allowed to end a sentence with "the". - Jmabel | Talk 18:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The only problem I see here is that the Wikipedia version claims that Che said he would attack major US cities, while the citation itself says nothing about cities. Where is the quote about attacking major cities? If someone has it, please post a link or copy the citation with respective quote. BBUCommander
Polaris asked me to give my impression of recent changes to the article. I don't have the focus to really give this right now, but one thing leaps out: the lead section has become much longer than is normal for a biography, even of a major figure with a complicated life. For examples of other featured biographies of political figures, consider Attila the Hun, Claudius Joan of Arc, (all much shorter); Armand Jean du Plessis, Cardinal Richelieu (somewhat shorter); Mahatma Ghandi is the only other one I see that is about this long. I'm sure that pretty much everything there is echoed below; I'm almost certain it could be said more succinctly in the lead, and perhaps some of it omitted from the lead, but I don't have the energy to take it on right now. - Jmabel | Talk 01:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Lead section before changes made by
User:Kwertii Some time later, Guevara became a member of Fidel Castro's paramilitary 26th of July Movement, which seized power in Cuba in 1959. After serving in various important posts in the new government and writing a number of articles and books on the theory and practice of guerrilla warfare, Guevara left Cuba in 1965 with the intention of fomenting revolutions first in the Congo-Kinshasa (later named the Democratic Republic of the Congo) and then in Bolivia, where he was captured in a CIA/ U.S. Army Special Forces-organized military operation [1]. Guevara died at the hands of the Bolivian Army in La Higuera near Vallegrande on October 9, 1967. Participants in, and witnesses to, the events of his final hours testify that his captors executed him without trial. After his death, Guevara became an icon of socialist revolutionary movements worldwide. An Alberto Korda photo of Guevara (shown) has received wide distribution and modification. The Maryland Institute College of Art called this picture "the most famous photograph in the world and a symbol of the 20th century." [2] |
Lead section written by
User:Kwertii As a young man studying medicine in Buenos Aires, Guevara travelled rough on a motorcycle tour of Latin America. His travels brought him into direct contact with the severe poverty that afflicts many people in the region, a sharp contrast to the well-off surroundings in which he had been raised. He moved to Guatemala, where he became personally involved in a leftist social revolution under Guatemala's first democratically-elected president, Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán. The various socialist reforms proved troublesome for American companies doing business in Guatemala, and Guzmán was overthrown in 1954 by a right-wing military coup orchestrated by the American CIA. The experience radicalized Guevara; he became convinced that only a revolution by force against capitalism and against the influence of the United States in particular could remedy Latin America's extreme economic inequality. Guevara continued his travels through Latin America. In Mexico, he met Raul and Fidel Castro, who were planning a revolution in their native Cuba from abroad against US-leaning General Fulgencio Batista, who had assumed power years before following a military coup. Che joined the brothers' paramilitary 26th of July Movement. Though only 12 members survived the group's disastrous initial landing in Cuba, they finally overthrew Batista's government on January 1, 1959. Che served in various important posts in the new government, and wrote a number of articles and books on the theory and practice of guerrilla warfare. Very influential with Cuban leader Fidel Castro, Che advocated a hardline anti-capitalist foreign policy involving active efforts to create further socialist revolutions abroad and preparation for direct military conflict with the United States. He grew increasingly disillusioned with the Soviet Union, especially after the Soviets agreed to remove their long-range nuclear missiles from Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis, which he viewed as a betrayal. Guevara then went on several diplomatic missions to other Third World countries in an unsuccessful attempt to forge an anti-capitalist political and economic bloc that was not aligned with the Soviet Union. Guevara resigned his government posts and left Cuba in 1965 with the intention of directly fomenting Marxist revolutions abroad himself. He first went to the Congo-Kinshasa (later called the Democratic Republic of the Congo), and then to Bolivia. He did not meet with the widespread popular support he had expected in either country, and both operations were unsuccessful. He was captured in Bolivia by a CIA/ U.S. Army Special Forces-organized military operation [3] and was executed shortly thereafter, in La Higuera near Vallegrande on October 9, 1967. Participants in, and witnesses to, the events of his final hours testify that his captors executed him without trial. After his death, Guevara became an icon of socialist revolutionary movements worldwide. An Alberto Korda photo of Guevara (shown) has received wide distribution and modification. The Maryland Institute College of Art called this picture "the most famous photograph in the world and a symbol of the 20th century." [4] |
Opening paragraph
For example:
|
Opening paragraph
|
These changes seem perfectly reasonable to me. Kwertii 02:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm coming at this from the persective of someone who knows little about the subject, I was reading to learn and noticed a few things. In the "Guatemala" section, a woman "Hilda Gadea" is introduced as Che's main political contact. The next reference is to Che selling her jewelry, it isn't until later in the "Cuba" section that they are noted as being in a relationship. The sentence directly after the jewelry selling is "Then, on May 15, 1954, a shipment of high-quality Skoda infantry and light artillery weapons sent from Communist Czechoslovakia for the Arbenz Government arrived in Puerto Barrios aboard the Swedish ship Alfhem.", but there is no clear reference as to why this is particulary important to the article, and the paragraph goes on talking about tonnage of this shipment and Che going to get a new Visa. I can kind of connect the dots, but it seems to me a bit confusing the way it is written.-- Trees4est 02:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I read in this talk page a notice regarding the size of the article (80KB at the time). The article is now 96KB, that's almost THREE times the recommended article size. My head hurts from reading. -- Iafrate 20:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Other than shortening the introduction (which seems to be an unpopular proposal), it's really hard to imagine what to cut. This has become (with the inevitable limitiation of successfully "digesting" new contributions) a really good piece on Guevara. Iafrate, any concrete suggestions for trimming? - Jmabel | Talk 00:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Z: you might concentrate your efforts on content rather than style, as it is this article quite biased. For example it does not even full admit Guevara's role as executioner, yet "cries like a baby" when talking about his death. El Jigue 8-23-06