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![]() | This is Archive 6 covering approximately 30 May 2006 - 29 June 2006 |
Che is repeatedly called a "Marxist" in the course of the article and elsewhere on Wikipedia. As far as I know, Che called himself "Communist", not "Marxist", and "Marxist" is therefore OR. Additionally, his authoritarian politics are more in line with quasi-fascists like Josef Stalin or Mao Zedong than Karl Marx, who influenced anarchist thought. Article should definitely be changed to say "Communist", but I have no doubt there will be opposition so I'm raising the idea here. -- Switch 07:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Addition to the dicussion: The topic to distinquish between Marxist and Comminist has been discussed before, this from the archives: [1] -- Dakota ~ 17:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Porque hay que recordar siempre que el marxista no es una máquina automática y fanática dirigida, como un torpedo, mediante un servomecanismo hacia un objetivo determinado. De este problema se ocupa expresamente Fidel en una de sus intervenciones: «¿Quién ha dicho que el marxismo es la renuncia de los sentimientos humanos, al compañerismo, al amor al compañero, al respeto al compañero, a la consideración al compañero? ¿Quién ha dicho que el marxismo es no tener alma, no tener sentimientos? Si precisamente fue el amor al hombre lo que engendró el marxismo, fue el amor al hombre, a la humanidad, el deseo de combatir la desdicha del proletariado, el deseo de combatir la miseria, la injusticia, el calvario y toda la explotación sufrida por el proletariado, lo que hace que de la mente de Carlos Marx surja el marxismo cuando precisamente podía surgir el marxismo, cuando precisamente podía surgir una posibilidad real y más que una posibilidad real, la necesidad histórica de la Revolución social de la cual fue intérprete Carlos Marx. Pero, ¿qué lo hizo ser ese intérprete sino el caudal de sentimientos humanos de hombres como él, como Engels, como Lenin?» Esta apreciación de Fidel es fundamental para el militante del nuevo partido, recuérdenlo siempre, compañeros, grábenselo en la memoria como su arma más eficaz contra todas las desviaciones. El marxista debe ser el mejor, el más cabal, el más completo de los seres humanos pero, siempre, por sobre todas las cosas, un ser humano; un militante de un partido que vive y vibra en contacto con las masas; un orientador que plasma en directivas concretas los deseos a veces oscuros de la masa; un trabajador incansable que entrega todo a su pueblo; un trabajador sufrido que entrega sus horas de descanso, su tranquilidad personal, su familia o su vida a la Revolución, pero nunca es ajeno al calor del contacto humano. "Obras escogidas", pg 251 (Prólogo al libro El partido marxista-leninista, publicado por la Dirección Nacional del Partido Unido de la Revolución Socialista de Cuba, La Habana, 1963.) ======================================== Estos dos momentos difíciles de la revolución, que hemos analizado someramente, se obvian cuando los partidos dirigentes marxistas-leninistas son capaces de ver claro las implicaciones del momento y de movilizar las masas al máximo, llevándolas por el camino justo de la resolución de las contradicciones fundamentales. "Obras escogidas", pg 95 (Cuba Socialista, septiembre de 1963.) ======================================== El militante del Partido Unido de la Revolución es un marxista; debe conocer el marxismo y debe aplicar consecuentemente, en su análisis, el materialismo dialéctico para poder interpretar el mundo cabalmente. ... Por eso el marxismo es solamente una guía par la acción. Se han descubierto las grandes verdades fundamentales, y a partir de ellas, utilizando el materialismo dialéctico como arma, se va interpretando la realidad en cada lugar del mundo. Por eso ninguna construcción será igual; todas tendrán características peculiares, propias a su formación. "Obras escogidas", pg 270 (Discurso en la asamblea general de trabajadores de la Textilería Ariguanabo, 24 de marzo de 1963) ======================================== Agradezco al señor Stevenson su referencia histórica a mi larga vida como comunista y revolucionario que culmina en Cuba. Como siempre, las agencias norteamericanas, no sólo en noticias, sino de espionaje, confunden las cosas. Mi historia de revolucionario es corta y realmente empieza en el Granma y sigue hasta este momento. No pertenecía al Partido Comunista hasta ahora que estoy en Cuba y podemos proclamar todos ante esta Asamblea el marxismo-leninismo que sigue como teoría de acción la Revolución cubana. "Obras Escogidas", pg 405 (Tomado del folleto Ha sonado la hora postrera del colonialismo, Ministerio de Relaciones Exteriores) ======================================== |
Okay, I didn't know he had called himself a Marxist. Okay then, never mind. That's good enough for me. -- Switch 07:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
If you don't like it, improve it, don't revert it! -- 71.141.100.105 08:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The article begins with a few mistakes:
"... was an Argentine-born physician, Marxist revolutionary, politician, and leader of Cuban and internationalist guerrillas."
First, the words "Argentine", "Marxist" and "Cuban" have not reason to appear in caps.
Second, Ernesto Guevara was a doctor (dermatologist), not a physician.
Third, the word "guerrillas" could be changed for "revolutions".
-- 201.253.80.77 16:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I hope it won't offend anyone, but I substituted the Der Spiegel picture in the Legacy section for a picture of a poetry reading in front of a Che Guevara mural/painting at Colegio Cesar Chavez. There are four reasons I have done this: 1. As this is the English language website, most who visit this site are unfamiliar with the Der Spiegel publication, and therefore any significance of a Che cover will be lost on most visitors. Therefore, I think it is more relevant to have a picture from an institution that was in the United States. 2. Colegio Cesar Chavez was an activist institution that symbolically looked to Che Guevara, and in fact was almost named in his honor. And because Colegio was the first and only Chicano/ Mexican-American college in the United States, it is quite notable in this context. It can in some ways be seen as an extension of Che's movement. 3. The picture in question has been released into the public domain, which I doubt the picture of Der Spiegel has been. My understanding is that Wikipedia prefers free pictures to fair use pictures. 4. I really believe that the picture from Colegio deserves to be on this page as I think it is of more historical pertinence than the Der Spiegel cover, but there just isn't enough room in that section for three pictures. -- Andrew Parodi 11:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It's not the best picture, but it's more historically pertinent than the cover of a foreign magazine that most English speakers have never heard of. In regard to it already being on the "popular culture" page, many pictures on Wikipedia are shown on different pages.
For clarification, the reason the picture is in both places is because I found the "popular culture" article before I found the "legacy" section in this main article. If I had to choose, I'd refer for the picture to be in the legacy section of the main article, because Colegio Cesar Chavez really does not qualify as "popular culture."
I think it's significant that there was a mural of Che Guevara in Colegio Cesar Chavez, the only four-year Hispanic/Chicano in the nation. And I think it's significant that the founders of the college had considered naming the college "Colegio Che Guevara." I think it is at least worth mentioning in the article. And if you don't like the picture I put up, there is also this one: Image:Colegiopoetryreading2.jpg
Granted, they are not the best quality pictures, but they are over 20 years old at this point, and they capture an aspect of history, whereas the picture of the magazine captures, well, a magazine that most English speakers who visit this site have never heard of. Further, the mural on the wall of the Colegio building seems relatively in keeping with the other picture, which is of a mural (of sorts) of Che on the outside of a building. Lastly, as I mentioned, the image is a "free image", which I've heard is preferable to a "fair use" image. -- Andrew Parodi 19:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Ciao, Image:Bookletche.jpg appears to be from a spanish language book or magazine of antique vintage and I notice that the uploader perhaps mistakenly labeled it self made. Improperly licensed images are not permitted in articles. It needs to have the source and proper license and then it may be considered after a concensus of editors is made. -- Dakota ~ 21:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The mural of Che Guevara is on the wall (right side) above the seated man. I have a higher resolution of the picture. I put the fair use tag on it because you said the other tag wasn't appropriate. However, I am still pretty certain that "fair use" isn't even necessary because I think the copyright has expired, as there is no copyright information in the book, no list of photographers, the college was a non-profit institution, and the institution closed over 20 years ago.
If the picture isn't acceptable, would anyone have any problem with me at least including a mention of Colegio Cesar Chavez in the legacy section? I think it's relevant that there was a mural of him in this school, the only Hispanic four-year college in the nation, and that they had considered naming the school after him. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 04:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
If the Colegio Cesar Chavez had been named for Che Guevara instead of for Cesar Chavez that information might have been relevant for inclusion in the "Legacy" section of the Che Guevara article. The fact that the possibility of naming the Colegio for Che Guevara was considered, but it was decided instead to name it for Cesar Chavez means that it is not. This is a featured article and as such it must meet certain standards; it is already considered by some editors to be too long — that is why several of its sections have been split off into separate ('child') articles as you must have noticed since you have edited one of them, i.e. Che Guevara in popular culture. If you wish, we can explore the possibility of putting a link to the Colegio Cesar Chavez article in the Legacy category of the "See Also" section of the Che Guevara article. Then you can put any photos that you wish into the Colegio Cesar Chavez article (that I notice you are currently working on) and their quality and copyright status will not be of any concern to editors here. Does this alternative interest you? -- Polaris999 04:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Comments requested: On the basis of the foregoing discussion,
User:Andrew Parodi and I would like to propose that a link to the
Colegio Cesar Chavez article be added to the Legacy category of the "See Also" section of the main "Che Guevara" article and we request the opinions of other editors about this.
Thank you --
Polaris999 14:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it a micky mouse one - it looks funny.lol 222.154.55.35 01:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I thought the photo of Che Guevara beside Ghandi was a bit peculiar. Is it asserted that Guevara was a non-violent revolutionary? DonPMitchell 04:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the late comment, but most English speakers will be no more familiar with Colegio Cesar Chavez (even though it was located in the U.S.) than they are with Der Spiegel. Probably most who are aware of one are also aware of the other. - Jmabel | Talk 16:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if perhaps others agree that the USA Today article that is linked to in this article is useless: [4] It's not so much that I disagree or agree with the statements made (though I do agree and disagree with some statements), it's just that overall this seems to be a terribly written article. I know that goes without saying, as it is USA Today. But what I was wondering was if perhaps better quality articles could be linked to with regard to criticism of Che. I'm sure some of his critics have more substantial statements to make than what is mentioned in this article. I mean, the article seems to say that we should be thankful Che wasn't successful or else we wouldn't have iPods, and that if he had been successful than we'd all be raising donkeys. The tone of the article seems to me to be juvenile. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 09:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay. I think the article touches on a good point. I think it's always unsettling to see political personalities turned into fashion icons by people who don't even know what they were about. But the article just isn't that good. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 01:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The following link was added to the "External Links" section (English category) a few hours ago by User:24.44.45.54 without prior discussion so I have transferred it over here to the Talk page so that wikipedians can comment as to whether or not it is appropriate for inclusion there.
If you support its inclusion, please comment also as to whether it should be placed in the "English" or "Spanish" category of "External Links".
Thank you -- Polaris999 14:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Polaris, I added the link. I was unsure whether it should be under "English" or "Spanish" because the page is in English, but the video is Spanish. Apparently, it is a video critique of Che (I don't understand Spanish, unfortunately). Since, articles are supposed to be NPOV, links can be to differing views, so I do think the link should be included, and would be of interest to some people. In any case, I don't think it should be removed or censored. Maybe the seperate English/Spanish links section is too restricting. Maybe "Other". 24.44.45.54 22:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Polaris, You are probably right. The video is in Spanish. Frankly, it's kind of kooky the way they did that. English page, Spanish video. You would have thought that if someone is reading their page in English, they'd have a video dubbed in English available. I don't exactly know what the video is about, but it does look interesting. Have you watched it? I gather it's anti-Che, and you're pro-Che, so I appreciate your open-mindedness to allow a link to what you probably think is just propaganda. I usually try to look at all sides and try to make up my mind - which isn't always too easy. ;-) Anyway, will you move the link to the Spanish section, or should I? Thanks. P.S. What would you do with a web link to a page that is both English & Spanish!!
The Municipality of Rosario has just put up a sign indicating the location of Guevara's house (previously there wasn't any indication, then the current owners refused to let a plaque be placed directly on the house). I took a picture. The Municipality also sponsored a celebration of Guevara's 78th birthday with the presence of friends and the Cuban Ambassador (see poster). Just in case this is useful. — Pablo D. Flores ( Talk) 19:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I am transferring this discussion from my Talk page to the Talk page of the Che Guevara article so that other wikipedians will be more likely to see it and can participate if they wish to do so ...
Background:
This discussion is focussed on the third sentence of the second paragraph of the "Criticism" sub-section of the main Che Guevara article. For many weeks that sentence had been as follows:
They assert that Che Guevara was responsible for the torture and execution of thousands of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces.[61]
In two postings on 15 June 2006 , specifically. at 20:41, 15 June 2006 and at 20:43, 15 June 2006, User:12.98.133.245 modified the aforementioned sentence without prior discussion on this Talk page to read as follows:
They assert that Che Guevara was responsible for the torture and execution of thousands of people in Cuban prisons and labor camps, which targeted gays, dissidents, and AIDS patients [2], and for the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces.[61]
As soon as I saw this modification I reverted it with the following explanation:
21:34, 15 June 2006 Polaris999 (rv because absurd -- Guevara died in 1967, AIDS wasn't even discovered until December 1981: See AIDS )
User:12.98.133.245 then began a discussion on my Talk page, as follows:
Why can't I see the timeline? It's just a line for me. If I open directly the template, I see the same. NCurse work 07:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm a lifelong hiker and outdoorsman, and I've never heard this expression, to travel "rough". Is this British usage? Esbullin
I think it is a bit British (also "to sleep rough", meaning to lie down wherever there is a space available, usually outdoors). I'm afraid I've bounced back and forth enough that if I learned a phrase past age 17 or so, I'm sometimes not sure which side of the Atlantic it comes from. - Jmabel | Talk 16:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
We need documentation on the statement attributed in this article to Guevara that had the nuclear missiles of the Cuban Missile Crisis been under Cuban rather than Soviet control, they (presumably meaning he and Castro) would have fired them against major US cities. No other aspect of this man's life is as important. If it is accurate, and he seriously favored the direct murder of millions in an act that would certainly have triggered all-out nuclear holocaust and the death of billions and a collapse of civilization, it is safe to say that history will eventually see him for what he must have been: a dangerous, malevolent lunatic. If it is not accurate, the debate will go on... I will be trying to ferret out sources on this, but my time and energy is severely limited due to illness. I urge others to find reliable references and link to or quote from them on this Talk page so we can craft a definitive paragraph on this point for the article. Thx. JDG 14:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The following sentence appears in the Bolivia section: "In September, however, the Army managed to eliminate two guerrilla groups, reportedly killing one of the leaders". It isn't very clear what this means or how relevant it is. Who were these groups? Twittenham 16:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I reverted an edit [6] by Ismoot adding that the operation capturing Che was a CIA and Special Forces Op. I left a msg on his user talk explaining that I did it b/c the edit didn't meet WP:V.-- Kchase02 T 20:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
This article is 80 kilobytes long. Some parts could probably be trimmed off and placed in seperate parts. 64.111.128.11 23:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Isn't there a stadium named after Guevara?
"Che Stadium"?
72.82.195.2 01:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I hope that was a very bad pun on your part.
72.68.171.50 23:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
It was quite a bad pun, very out of place but perhaps you were just kidding.-- 222.98.9.39 06:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
The origin of this joke may possibly lie in the article on The Rutles (A British Beatles parody from the late 1970's). Britmax 21:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
At least, from my vantage point.
That's what this article seems like to me.
Do you think it would be possible to either substantially expand the criticism portion, or-at the very least-move it further up in the article?
72.68.171.50 23:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
"Cuba's labor camp system was eventually used to jail "gays, dissidents, and AIDS victims."" Its quite certain than Guevara himself didn't jail any AIDS victim.... Ericd 18:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
At 04:41, 18 June 2006, User:4.154.72.112 added the following sentence to the "Criticism" section:
The source given for the above statement is, first, not presented in the standard WP format as per WP:CITE; second, when I went to the amazon.com site to which it links and searched inside the book by David Horowitz presented there, the name "Morrison" did not appear on any page of the book, therefore the cited work cannot be the source for the statement in question (see WP:V).
While it is possible that Horowitz made such a statement, the correct source must be cited if it is to be included in the CG article, and this information must be provided both in a source note in the format used throughout this article (i.e., <ref></ref>) and in the appropriate section of the "References" section. -- Polaris999 06:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I obviously misremembered. If I find the exact source I'll resubmit. [[User:The Sanity Inspector|The Sanity Inspector}}
The pertinent excerpts from his official Birth Certificate, shown above, read as follows:
el día quince de junio de mil novecientos veintiocho a las diez y siete horas
Ante mí, Jefe encargado del Registro del Estado Civil, se presentó Don Ernesto Rafael Guevara domiciliado en calle Entre Ríos cuatrocientos ochenta de veintiocho años de edad de estado casado de nacionalidad argentina de profesión hacendado vecino de esta ciudad declarando
Que en su domicilio el día catorce del corriente mes de junio a las tres y cinco horas nació un niño de color blanco que es hijo legítimo suyo y de su esposa Doña Celia de la Serna y Llosa, de veintidos años de edad, argentina.
Que es nieto por línea paterna de Don Roberto Guevara y de Doña Ana Lynch y, por línea materna, de Don Juan Martín de la Serna y de Doña Edelmira Llosa y que al expresado niño se le ha puesto el nombre de Ernesto
Todo lo cual presenciaron como testigos Don Raúl Lynch de veintidos años de edad de estado soltero, de nacionalidad argentina, de profesión Marino domiciliado en esta ciudad y Don José Beltran de treinta años de edad, de estado soltero, de nacionalidad brasileña de profesión chofer.
(Signatures of Ernesto Guevara Lynch, the two witnesses, and the Jefe del Registro del Estado Civil appear at the bottom of the document.)
NB: The above Birth Certificate is on display in the Che Guevara Museum in Alta Gracia, Argentina q.v.:
Che Guevara Museum and
Room of Museum where his Birth Certificate is displayed as is described on that Museum's website in the following words:
And here is one additional piece of confirmatory evidence — the name that the Cuban Consejo de Estado inscribed on his coffin (which rests in the Che Guevara Mausoleum in Santa Clara) is Ernesto Guevara de la Serna, viz: Coffin of Che Guevara
Polaris999 19:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
![]() | This is Archive 6 covering approximately 30 May 2006 - 29 June 2006 |
Che is repeatedly called a "Marxist" in the course of the article and elsewhere on Wikipedia. As far as I know, Che called himself "Communist", not "Marxist", and "Marxist" is therefore OR. Additionally, his authoritarian politics are more in line with quasi-fascists like Josef Stalin or Mao Zedong than Karl Marx, who influenced anarchist thought. Article should definitely be changed to say "Communist", but I have no doubt there will be opposition so I'm raising the idea here. -- Switch 07:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Addition to the dicussion: The topic to distinquish between Marxist and Comminist has been discussed before, this from the archives: [1] -- Dakota ~ 17:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Porque hay que recordar siempre que el marxista no es una máquina automática y fanática dirigida, como un torpedo, mediante un servomecanismo hacia un objetivo determinado. De este problema se ocupa expresamente Fidel en una de sus intervenciones: «¿Quién ha dicho que el marxismo es la renuncia de los sentimientos humanos, al compañerismo, al amor al compañero, al respeto al compañero, a la consideración al compañero? ¿Quién ha dicho que el marxismo es no tener alma, no tener sentimientos? Si precisamente fue el amor al hombre lo que engendró el marxismo, fue el amor al hombre, a la humanidad, el deseo de combatir la desdicha del proletariado, el deseo de combatir la miseria, la injusticia, el calvario y toda la explotación sufrida por el proletariado, lo que hace que de la mente de Carlos Marx surja el marxismo cuando precisamente podía surgir el marxismo, cuando precisamente podía surgir una posibilidad real y más que una posibilidad real, la necesidad histórica de la Revolución social de la cual fue intérprete Carlos Marx. Pero, ¿qué lo hizo ser ese intérprete sino el caudal de sentimientos humanos de hombres como él, como Engels, como Lenin?» Esta apreciación de Fidel es fundamental para el militante del nuevo partido, recuérdenlo siempre, compañeros, grábenselo en la memoria como su arma más eficaz contra todas las desviaciones. El marxista debe ser el mejor, el más cabal, el más completo de los seres humanos pero, siempre, por sobre todas las cosas, un ser humano; un militante de un partido que vive y vibra en contacto con las masas; un orientador que plasma en directivas concretas los deseos a veces oscuros de la masa; un trabajador incansable que entrega todo a su pueblo; un trabajador sufrido que entrega sus horas de descanso, su tranquilidad personal, su familia o su vida a la Revolución, pero nunca es ajeno al calor del contacto humano. "Obras escogidas", pg 251 (Prólogo al libro El partido marxista-leninista, publicado por la Dirección Nacional del Partido Unido de la Revolución Socialista de Cuba, La Habana, 1963.) ======================================== Estos dos momentos difíciles de la revolución, que hemos analizado someramente, se obvian cuando los partidos dirigentes marxistas-leninistas son capaces de ver claro las implicaciones del momento y de movilizar las masas al máximo, llevándolas por el camino justo de la resolución de las contradicciones fundamentales. "Obras escogidas", pg 95 (Cuba Socialista, septiembre de 1963.) ======================================== El militante del Partido Unido de la Revolución es un marxista; debe conocer el marxismo y debe aplicar consecuentemente, en su análisis, el materialismo dialéctico para poder interpretar el mundo cabalmente. ... Por eso el marxismo es solamente una guía par la acción. Se han descubierto las grandes verdades fundamentales, y a partir de ellas, utilizando el materialismo dialéctico como arma, se va interpretando la realidad en cada lugar del mundo. Por eso ninguna construcción será igual; todas tendrán características peculiares, propias a su formación. "Obras escogidas", pg 270 (Discurso en la asamblea general de trabajadores de la Textilería Ariguanabo, 24 de marzo de 1963) ======================================== Agradezco al señor Stevenson su referencia histórica a mi larga vida como comunista y revolucionario que culmina en Cuba. Como siempre, las agencias norteamericanas, no sólo en noticias, sino de espionaje, confunden las cosas. Mi historia de revolucionario es corta y realmente empieza en el Granma y sigue hasta este momento. No pertenecía al Partido Comunista hasta ahora que estoy en Cuba y podemos proclamar todos ante esta Asamblea el marxismo-leninismo que sigue como teoría de acción la Revolución cubana. "Obras Escogidas", pg 405 (Tomado del folleto Ha sonado la hora postrera del colonialismo, Ministerio de Relaciones Exteriores) ======================================== |
Okay, I didn't know he had called himself a Marxist. Okay then, never mind. That's good enough for me. -- Switch 07:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
If you don't like it, improve it, don't revert it! -- 71.141.100.105 08:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The article begins with a few mistakes:
"... was an Argentine-born physician, Marxist revolutionary, politician, and leader of Cuban and internationalist guerrillas."
First, the words "Argentine", "Marxist" and "Cuban" have not reason to appear in caps.
Second, Ernesto Guevara was a doctor (dermatologist), not a physician.
Third, the word "guerrillas" could be changed for "revolutions".
-- 201.253.80.77 16:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I hope it won't offend anyone, but I substituted the Der Spiegel picture in the Legacy section for a picture of a poetry reading in front of a Che Guevara mural/painting at Colegio Cesar Chavez. There are four reasons I have done this: 1. As this is the English language website, most who visit this site are unfamiliar with the Der Spiegel publication, and therefore any significance of a Che cover will be lost on most visitors. Therefore, I think it is more relevant to have a picture from an institution that was in the United States. 2. Colegio Cesar Chavez was an activist institution that symbolically looked to Che Guevara, and in fact was almost named in his honor. And because Colegio was the first and only Chicano/ Mexican-American college in the United States, it is quite notable in this context. It can in some ways be seen as an extension of Che's movement. 3. The picture in question has been released into the public domain, which I doubt the picture of Der Spiegel has been. My understanding is that Wikipedia prefers free pictures to fair use pictures. 4. I really believe that the picture from Colegio deserves to be on this page as I think it is of more historical pertinence than the Der Spiegel cover, but there just isn't enough room in that section for three pictures. -- Andrew Parodi 11:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It's not the best picture, but it's more historically pertinent than the cover of a foreign magazine that most English speakers have never heard of. In regard to it already being on the "popular culture" page, many pictures on Wikipedia are shown on different pages.
For clarification, the reason the picture is in both places is because I found the "popular culture" article before I found the "legacy" section in this main article. If I had to choose, I'd refer for the picture to be in the legacy section of the main article, because Colegio Cesar Chavez really does not qualify as "popular culture."
I think it's significant that there was a mural of Che Guevara in Colegio Cesar Chavez, the only four-year Hispanic/Chicano in the nation. And I think it's significant that the founders of the college had considered naming the college "Colegio Che Guevara." I think it is at least worth mentioning in the article. And if you don't like the picture I put up, there is also this one: Image:Colegiopoetryreading2.jpg
Granted, they are not the best quality pictures, but they are over 20 years old at this point, and they capture an aspect of history, whereas the picture of the magazine captures, well, a magazine that most English speakers who visit this site have never heard of. Further, the mural on the wall of the Colegio building seems relatively in keeping with the other picture, which is of a mural (of sorts) of Che on the outside of a building. Lastly, as I mentioned, the image is a "free image", which I've heard is preferable to a "fair use" image. -- Andrew Parodi 19:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Ciao, Image:Bookletche.jpg appears to be from a spanish language book or magazine of antique vintage and I notice that the uploader perhaps mistakenly labeled it self made. Improperly licensed images are not permitted in articles. It needs to have the source and proper license and then it may be considered after a concensus of editors is made. -- Dakota ~ 21:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The mural of Che Guevara is on the wall (right side) above the seated man. I have a higher resolution of the picture. I put the fair use tag on it because you said the other tag wasn't appropriate. However, I am still pretty certain that "fair use" isn't even necessary because I think the copyright has expired, as there is no copyright information in the book, no list of photographers, the college was a non-profit institution, and the institution closed over 20 years ago.
If the picture isn't acceptable, would anyone have any problem with me at least including a mention of Colegio Cesar Chavez in the legacy section? I think it's relevant that there was a mural of him in this school, the only Hispanic four-year college in the nation, and that they had considered naming the school after him. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 04:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
If the Colegio Cesar Chavez had been named for Che Guevara instead of for Cesar Chavez that information might have been relevant for inclusion in the "Legacy" section of the Che Guevara article. The fact that the possibility of naming the Colegio for Che Guevara was considered, but it was decided instead to name it for Cesar Chavez means that it is not. This is a featured article and as such it must meet certain standards; it is already considered by some editors to be too long — that is why several of its sections have been split off into separate ('child') articles as you must have noticed since you have edited one of them, i.e. Che Guevara in popular culture. If you wish, we can explore the possibility of putting a link to the Colegio Cesar Chavez article in the Legacy category of the "See Also" section of the Che Guevara article. Then you can put any photos that you wish into the Colegio Cesar Chavez article (that I notice you are currently working on) and their quality and copyright status will not be of any concern to editors here. Does this alternative interest you? -- Polaris999 04:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Comments requested: On the basis of the foregoing discussion,
User:Andrew Parodi and I would like to propose that a link to the
Colegio Cesar Chavez article be added to the Legacy category of the "See Also" section of the main "Che Guevara" article and we request the opinions of other editors about this.
Thank you --
Polaris999 14:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it a micky mouse one - it looks funny.lol 222.154.55.35 01:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I thought the photo of Che Guevara beside Ghandi was a bit peculiar. Is it asserted that Guevara was a non-violent revolutionary? DonPMitchell 04:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the late comment, but most English speakers will be no more familiar with Colegio Cesar Chavez (even though it was located in the U.S.) than they are with Der Spiegel. Probably most who are aware of one are also aware of the other. - Jmabel | Talk 16:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if perhaps others agree that the USA Today article that is linked to in this article is useless: [4] It's not so much that I disagree or agree with the statements made (though I do agree and disagree with some statements), it's just that overall this seems to be a terribly written article. I know that goes without saying, as it is USA Today. But what I was wondering was if perhaps better quality articles could be linked to with regard to criticism of Che. I'm sure some of his critics have more substantial statements to make than what is mentioned in this article. I mean, the article seems to say that we should be thankful Che wasn't successful or else we wouldn't have iPods, and that if he had been successful than we'd all be raising donkeys. The tone of the article seems to me to be juvenile. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 09:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay. I think the article touches on a good point. I think it's always unsettling to see political personalities turned into fashion icons by people who don't even know what they were about. But the article just isn't that good. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi 01:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The following link was added to the "External Links" section (English category) a few hours ago by User:24.44.45.54 without prior discussion so I have transferred it over here to the Talk page so that wikipedians can comment as to whether or not it is appropriate for inclusion there.
If you support its inclusion, please comment also as to whether it should be placed in the "English" or "Spanish" category of "External Links".
Thank you -- Polaris999 14:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Polaris, I added the link. I was unsure whether it should be under "English" or "Spanish" because the page is in English, but the video is Spanish. Apparently, it is a video critique of Che (I don't understand Spanish, unfortunately). Since, articles are supposed to be NPOV, links can be to differing views, so I do think the link should be included, and would be of interest to some people. In any case, I don't think it should be removed or censored. Maybe the seperate English/Spanish links section is too restricting. Maybe "Other". 24.44.45.54 22:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi Polaris, You are probably right. The video is in Spanish. Frankly, it's kind of kooky the way they did that. English page, Spanish video. You would have thought that if someone is reading their page in English, they'd have a video dubbed in English available. I don't exactly know what the video is about, but it does look interesting. Have you watched it? I gather it's anti-Che, and you're pro-Che, so I appreciate your open-mindedness to allow a link to what you probably think is just propaganda. I usually try to look at all sides and try to make up my mind - which isn't always too easy. ;-) Anyway, will you move the link to the Spanish section, or should I? Thanks. P.S. What would you do with a web link to a page that is both English & Spanish!!
The Municipality of Rosario has just put up a sign indicating the location of Guevara's house (previously there wasn't any indication, then the current owners refused to let a plaque be placed directly on the house). I took a picture. The Municipality also sponsored a celebration of Guevara's 78th birthday with the presence of friends and the Cuban Ambassador (see poster). Just in case this is useful. — Pablo D. Flores ( Talk) 19:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I am transferring this discussion from my Talk page to the Talk page of the Che Guevara article so that other wikipedians will be more likely to see it and can participate if they wish to do so ...
Background:
This discussion is focussed on the third sentence of the second paragraph of the "Criticism" sub-section of the main Che Guevara article. For many weeks that sentence had been as follows:
They assert that Che Guevara was responsible for the torture and execution of thousands of people in Cuban prisons, and the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces.[61]
In two postings on 15 June 2006 , specifically. at 20:41, 15 June 2006 and at 20:43, 15 June 2006, User:12.98.133.245 modified the aforementioned sentence without prior discussion on this Talk page to read as follows:
They assert that Che Guevara was responsible for the torture and execution of thousands of people in Cuban prisons and labor camps, which targeted gays, dissidents, and AIDS patients [2], and for the murder of many more peasants in the regions controlled or visited by his guerrilla forces.[61]
As soon as I saw this modification I reverted it with the following explanation:
21:34, 15 June 2006 Polaris999 (rv because absurd -- Guevara died in 1967, AIDS wasn't even discovered until December 1981: See AIDS )
User:12.98.133.245 then began a discussion on my Talk page, as follows:
Why can't I see the timeline? It's just a line for me. If I open directly the template, I see the same. NCurse work 07:54, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm a lifelong hiker and outdoorsman, and I've never heard this expression, to travel "rough". Is this British usage? Esbullin
I think it is a bit British (also "to sleep rough", meaning to lie down wherever there is a space available, usually outdoors). I'm afraid I've bounced back and forth enough that if I learned a phrase past age 17 or so, I'm sometimes not sure which side of the Atlantic it comes from. - Jmabel | Talk 16:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
We need documentation on the statement attributed in this article to Guevara that had the nuclear missiles of the Cuban Missile Crisis been under Cuban rather than Soviet control, they (presumably meaning he and Castro) would have fired them against major US cities. No other aspect of this man's life is as important. If it is accurate, and he seriously favored the direct murder of millions in an act that would certainly have triggered all-out nuclear holocaust and the death of billions and a collapse of civilization, it is safe to say that history will eventually see him for what he must have been: a dangerous, malevolent lunatic. If it is not accurate, the debate will go on... I will be trying to ferret out sources on this, but my time and energy is severely limited due to illness. I urge others to find reliable references and link to or quote from them on this Talk page so we can craft a definitive paragraph on this point for the article. Thx. JDG 14:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
The following sentence appears in the Bolivia section: "In September, however, the Army managed to eliminate two guerrilla groups, reportedly killing one of the leaders". It isn't very clear what this means or how relevant it is. Who were these groups? Twittenham 16:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I reverted an edit [6] by Ismoot adding that the operation capturing Che was a CIA and Special Forces Op. I left a msg on his user talk explaining that I did it b/c the edit didn't meet WP:V.-- Kchase02 T 20:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
This article is 80 kilobytes long. Some parts could probably be trimmed off and placed in seperate parts. 64.111.128.11 23:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Isn't there a stadium named after Guevara?
"Che Stadium"?
72.82.195.2 01:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I hope that was a very bad pun on your part.
72.68.171.50 23:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
It was quite a bad pun, very out of place but perhaps you were just kidding.-- 222.98.9.39 06:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
The origin of this joke may possibly lie in the article on The Rutles (A British Beatles parody from the late 1970's). Britmax 21:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
At least, from my vantage point.
That's what this article seems like to me.
Do you think it would be possible to either substantially expand the criticism portion, or-at the very least-move it further up in the article?
72.68.171.50 23:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
"Cuba's labor camp system was eventually used to jail "gays, dissidents, and AIDS victims."" Its quite certain than Guevara himself didn't jail any AIDS victim.... Ericd 18:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
At 04:41, 18 June 2006, User:4.154.72.112 added the following sentence to the "Criticism" section:
The source given for the above statement is, first, not presented in the standard WP format as per WP:CITE; second, when I went to the amazon.com site to which it links and searched inside the book by David Horowitz presented there, the name "Morrison" did not appear on any page of the book, therefore the cited work cannot be the source for the statement in question (see WP:V).
While it is possible that Horowitz made such a statement, the correct source must be cited if it is to be included in the CG article, and this information must be provided both in a source note in the format used throughout this article (i.e., <ref></ref>) and in the appropriate section of the "References" section. -- Polaris999 06:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I obviously misremembered. If I find the exact source I'll resubmit. [[User:The Sanity Inspector|The Sanity Inspector}}
The pertinent excerpts from his official Birth Certificate, shown above, read as follows:
el día quince de junio de mil novecientos veintiocho a las diez y siete horas
Ante mí, Jefe encargado del Registro del Estado Civil, se presentó Don Ernesto Rafael Guevara domiciliado en calle Entre Ríos cuatrocientos ochenta de veintiocho años de edad de estado casado de nacionalidad argentina de profesión hacendado vecino de esta ciudad declarando
Que en su domicilio el día catorce del corriente mes de junio a las tres y cinco horas nació un niño de color blanco que es hijo legítimo suyo y de su esposa Doña Celia de la Serna y Llosa, de veintidos años de edad, argentina.
Que es nieto por línea paterna de Don Roberto Guevara y de Doña Ana Lynch y, por línea materna, de Don Juan Martín de la Serna y de Doña Edelmira Llosa y que al expresado niño se le ha puesto el nombre de Ernesto
Todo lo cual presenciaron como testigos Don Raúl Lynch de veintidos años de edad de estado soltero, de nacionalidad argentina, de profesión Marino domiciliado en esta ciudad y Don José Beltran de treinta años de edad, de estado soltero, de nacionalidad brasileña de profesión chofer.
(Signatures of Ernesto Guevara Lynch, the two witnesses, and the Jefe del Registro del Estado Civil appear at the bottom of the document.)
NB: The above Birth Certificate is on display in the Che Guevara Museum in Alta Gracia, Argentina q.v.:
Che Guevara Museum and
Room of Museum where his Birth Certificate is displayed as is described on that Museum's website in the following words:
And here is one additional piece of confirmatory evidence — the name that the Cuban Consejo de Estado inscribed on his coffin (which rests in the Che Guevara Mausoleum in Santa Clara) is Ernesto Guevara de la Serna, viz: Coffin of Che Guevara
Polaris999 19:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)