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This is Archive 2 covering approximately 14 Jan 2005 to 22 October 2005 |
while the article isn't bad, i don't think there's enough about criticisms of Che, which certainly do exist (as well as criticisms of the pop culture Che-shirts worn by a lot of younger people.) this doesn't mean we have to include rants like Fontova's, but there certainly are people that believe that Che was ideologically rigid (in usual Communist fashion) and that he was willing to support great violent means for "the Revolution" (ends justify the means -- also remember the call for "many Vietnams," though I think that might already be in there.) i'm sure there are plenty of Cuban-Americans who don't think too highly of him as well. he certainly is an icon, and admired by a lot of people, but we shouldn't downplay legitimate criticism. J. Parker Stone 4 July 2005 23:12 (UTC)
Che = Communism = Evil = Hitler. This is a great contribution to the article :
Many right-wing criticism of Guevara by Wikipedian is worth nothing because it's only POV. As for the "quality" of this article, let's quote the article :
"Guevara took responsibility for the execution of informers, insubordinates, deserters and spies in the revolutionary army. He personally executed Eutimio Guerra, a suspected Batista informant, with a single shot from his .32(7.65mm) caliber pistol."
"In 1959, Guevara was appointed commander of the La Cabana Fortress prison. During his term as commander of the fortress from 1959–1963, he oversaw the hasty trials and executions of many former Batista regime officials, including members of the BRAC secret police (some sources say 156 people, others estimate as many as 500). Poet and human rights activist Armando Valladares, who was imprisoned at La Cabana, documented Guevara's particular and personal interest in the interrogation, torture, and execution of prisoners."
"Prior to the Cuban Missile Crisis, Guevara was part of a Cuban delegation to Moscow in early 1962 with Raúl Castro where he endorsed the planned placement of Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba. Guevara believed that the placement of Soviet missiles would protect Cuba from any direct military action against it from the United States. Jon Lee Anderson reports that after the crisis Guevara told Sam Russell, a British correspondent for the socialist newspaper Daily Worker, that if the missiles had been under Cuban control, they would have fired them."
Do you have facts to add ? Ericd 21:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Regarding facts to add, I suggest that the numerous documented facts of Guevara's murders, torture, and cruel behaviour should be added. See these articles:
http://frontpagemag.org/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12467 http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,1258340,00.html http://bureaucrash.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=40
To quote the Slate article ( http://slate.msn.com/id/2107100/), "Che presided over the Cuban Revolution's first firing squads. He founded Cuba's "labor camp" system—the system that was eventually employed to incarcerate gays, dissidents, and AIDS victims." If any other leader were to institute concentration camps, there would surely be comparisons to Hitler and Stalin. Why is there little to no mention of Che's atrocities. It seems that his cult status grants him immunity from these troubling facts. JianLi 00:27, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
where are facts supporting the claim to che's execution of 156 people and the claim that some were killed just due to ideological differences? i mean is citing a book someone wrote claiming something, a fact? [user: suki]
User:Centralman seems determined to add to the article this factoid that "The current Hong Kong Legislative Council member, Leung Kwok-Hung is an avid fan of Che Guevara." I have reverted him once, and would welcome a revert by someone else. I cannot readily imagine why that is encyclopedic, and even if true and for some reason notable (for example, if he is attempting to promote policies in Hong Kong modeled insome way on Latin American Marxist revolutionary traditions), it would seem to me to belong in an article on Leung Kwok-Hung, not one on Che Guevara. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:14, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)
Under the Cuba section this text can be found: "He personally executed Eutimio Guerra, a suspected Batista informant, with a single shot from his .32 caliber (7.65 mm, likely a Soviet-made Makarov) pistol."
Either it was a .32/7.65mm pistol or a Makarov. The Makarov uses the 9x18mm Makarov cartridge. Since I really can't say which is right, or what the weapon in question really was, I didn't want to edit the entry. (I've also just registered, although I have been using Wikipedia for a while. Besides, this is really nitpicking...)
Offhand, I'd guess the Makarov wasn't all too available at the time. Perhaps this was a Soviet Tokarev TT pistol (this used the same 7.62mm ammunition as the PPSh)? --Karl Gunnarsson 01:34, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This is stupid ! .32/7,65mm is a very common caliber and I believe that at that time Castro had no direct support from the USSR. Ericd 11:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
While the caliber may be similar the ballistics of the rounds are far different and the Russian variant far more powerful. Given the weapons use in the Sierra Maestra the US .32 caliber is the most probable round, and weapon, used. BTW Eutimio Guerra is reported to have been a well known and popular "agrarian reformer" way before Castro reached those mountains, and as to Guerra being an informant we only have Castro's and the Che's words for it. El Jigüe 11/30/05
Cut from article:
Some have speculated however, that the hero worship of Che is precisely something he wouldn't have wanted - the T-shirts bearing his image have become fashion statements and are sometimes very expensive. The ideals that Che had fought are oftentimes opposite of today's crass consumerism indulged by young people.
True enough that some have speculated this, but POV speculation has no place in the article. If you can cite someone reasonably authoritative on what Che would and wouldn't have wanted, fine, but blind speculation? No. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:03, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
took out the nazis quote (to make the point that whatever link was nazi). The dispute is resolved, we can delete this shit. Hope nobody revert this edit!
I see this was recently anonymously changed from Rosario (I know where that is, it's a city, it's where I thought he was from) to Lancia. No citation (or even edit summary) was given. Does anyone have a citation either way? -- Jmabel | Talk 21:25, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
Rosario is correct according to The Che Handbook ISBN 1-84072-502-8 and several other books I have.-- Garsanllean 17:03, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
A recent anon edit changed the number of Granma survivors from 12 to 16 without citation. Since the old number wasn't cited either, I have no idea which was correct, but I presume someone has a citation on this; could you please present it? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:58, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
The Granma arrived on 25th November 1956. According to The Che Handbook ISBN 1-84072-502-8 by the end of December "only 15 of the original 82 guerillas remained, the others being either dead, missing, or taken prisoner".-- Garsanllean 17:09, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, i've just been banned at ernesto-guevara.com for the comments I posted above about the site, I'd just like to make clear that comradeche.com is just a redirect to the same site.-- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:15, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
INSERT Dunno whether the Che smoked dope. However, it was readily available from Crescencio Perez who grew the stuff for sale, and Castro said known to tolerate it because he needed Crescencio's help. In addition, the hills were full of the stuff, coffee plantation owners tried to get rid of it because of the effect on the workers. The Casquitos were said to smoke it to banish fear and fatigue as they climbed the hills, but I do not know for certain for I tried not to get so close that I could smell their breath. xe xe. El Jigüe 12/4/05
Yes, you were indeed banned but not simply for the comments you posted above about the site but the fact that you're trying to stump the growth of ComradeChe.com by
1) Removing links to ComradeChe site from Wikipedia articles. 2) Making unfounded slanders such as the site is ran by "Fascists". I run the site and I'm a pupil of Marx, Engels and Lenin, however, you continue to lie. What will this achieve?
P.S. Where did I ever express "Fascist" views? -- Tarasi 12:50, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I will consider the points you raised. However, in the mean time, please cease your attempts to stump the growth of my site. The fact remains is, I don't nearly have enough time to maintain the forums in a manner I'd like to, most of the admins and moderators were democratically elected by the forum populace. I'm honestly too busy with real political work to get involved in petty internet squabbles and I cannot spend 12 hours a day online in an attempt to stop you from editing links from these pages. Do you see me editing out links to Che-Lives on the grounds that it is infested with drug users and anarchists? So what is your problem? Is your life honestly confined to fighting what you see as Fascism on the internet?
I tolerated you for months and months and listening to your critisms, yet you continue to slander both me and my site in public, you've never once raised these issues with me in private.
I demodded Iron Feliks last week and gave him a warning to cease his impersenation of Jews, I also debated him on Oswald Mosley to which he stopped replying. Honestly, what do you want? You've never taken action against members of your site who have spammed my site in the past, 100% of your posts tend to be centered on "banning the Fascists", why do you expect me to ban almost all of the orginal founders and most active contributors?
Stop removing the links from Wikipedia, what are you attempting to achieve by doing this? -- Tarasi 21:34, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I think this discussion is only marginally relevant to Wikipedia, except insofar as it bears on whether or not we should link to the site in question. We want to link from Wikipedia to sites that are of a quality comparable to our own; Wikipedia is not a link farm. Tarasi, the promotion of your site is not one of Wikipedia's goals, and given that you say in almost so many words that the reason you want a link here is to promote your site, that is an argument against linking to it. If Che y Marijuana is correct that your site includes an lot of uninformed neo-fascist contributors, and that it is relatively short on solid content, that is highly relevant to Wikipedia, and if it's inconvenient for you, that's not really Wikipedia's affair. Also, frankly, the efforts a few months back to "kidnap" an existing link and redirect it to your site tend to bias me strongly against the site, and I doubt that I'm alone in that. The adoption of new names and then sneaking it back in without discussion doesn't exactly make a positive impression, either. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:19, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
Jmabel covers it pretty well. As for discussing this with you, I have, and you never seemed very interested in doing anything about it. If you'd like to discuss this further, wikipedia is not the best place. You know where I am, just drop me a line. In the meantime, I will abstain from reverting you for the time being. -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 05:57, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
Cut from article:
Communists generally have opposed only "Western" imperialism or colonialism, while overlooking or even endorsing Soviet imperialism and colonialism (and/or that of other Communist forces). The gist is that Marxism-Leninism is not opposed to these things per se, but only insomuch as they represent obstacles to a Communist victory. Recall that Communist morality is not absolute, but measures all things good and bad in terms of how well it "advances communism".
Communists like to say they are against various Western abuses, but they say this chiefly to condemn the West - rather than out of a belief that these things are bad in and of themselves.
I'm guessing that Che only opposed Western imperialism, but if there's any record that he opposed Soviet or Cuban imperialism as well (as in Angola) that would make for a very interesting article! -- Uncle Ed (talk) 19:00, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
I'm amazed to find not one word about whether the spelling is "Che" or "Ché". I've seen the latter in a number of publications, most recently in Famous Last Words (C. B. Ruffin). Yet there is no clarification which it truly is, nor is was there even a redirect from
Ché Guevara for those who might think to spell it this way. In my own ignorance, I can't tell if this is a case of English authors ignoring inconvenient accents or the equally peculiar habit of adding accents where they may not be needed. Can someone authoritatively state (preferably with cited references) which is correct? Not only is it a question of how to spell the appropriate Spanish (or Argentinian slang) for "buddy", but it's perhaps more important how Guevara himself (or his buddies) spelled it, as people's names don't necessarily follow their origins. —
Jeff Q
(talk)
14:17, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
While it makes perfect sense to include links that are intellectually critical of Guevara, the articles by one Humberto Fontova that are currently in the Links section of this page are anything but that. I especially point to the following links:
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y04/feb04/24e6.htm
http://www.lewrockwell.com/fontova/fontova44.html
http://www.sfherald.com/columnists/fontova/the_real_che.html
These are not impartial criticism of Guevara making a well-thought out analysis on him, but rather hissy fits regarding Che Guevara. I consider these links inappropriate to have on a site that is supposed to be informational for the following reasons:
While they are a great comic relief compared to all the serious articles on Che, their hilarity does not justify them being linked to by an informative site like Wikipedia. I'm removing them, if anybody seriously wants them back, we can always discuss it here, the links are posted above for review.
-- Eyeflash 17:45, 14 June 2005 (UTC)
A little one sided don't you think. The Che was known to separated himself from his group during action and he is known to have failed to support Rene Ramos Latour (Daniel) during the "Ofensiva." As a result Ramos Latour was killed. One of the problems with self descriptions of Castro's and Che war actions is that in order to enhance their "deeds" they needed to diminish or take credit for the actions of others. El Jigüey, 11-30-05
While it's not exactly the most relevant piece of info in the article, I added the United States to the list of countries of origin of tourists to Che's grave...while I would bet hundreds have been there, a close friend of mine has been there at the very least :) I couldn't decide where to add the United States to the list. I didn't want to put it first or last for emphasis since that seems US-centric, but at the same time I don't think it shouldn't be lost in the middle since it involves breaking the law for an American citizen (AFAIK it's not illegal for the citizens of any of the other countries listed), which I think makes it more interesting that people make an effort to do it.
So (sheesh this is long) I did the logical thing and put them all in alphabetic order...hope that's cool with everyone. -- Lance 1 July 2005 18:16 (UTC)
Yes, that is good. And for the record, Americans can visit Cuba legally if they have a travel license issued by the Treasury Department. Not easy to get, but there are ways. . .
Do we really need three separate (recently added) passages to the effect that Fidel Castro may have distrusted and exploited Che? Seems to me like this can far better go one place in the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:55, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
"Che-mart" is a moderately amusing humor site, but I don't think it merits a link.
The recently added sentence that begins, "The most widely agreed upon account is that Guevara received multiple shots to the legs...": On what basis is this described as "most widely agreed upon"? Indeed, is there any citation at all? It seems to me that all we have are the conflicting accounts of the few people present, and that anything else is speculation. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:17, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
"When the police killed him for leading a failed peasant revolt, Ché was wearing a gold watch."
It is said in the article that it was a Rolex. -- Chris
The Basque People's page on Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_people) states Guevara was of Basque ancestry: "Several of Argentina's Presidents have been of Basque descent, including Irigoyen, Aramburu and Urquiza, not to mention other figures, notably Che Guevara."
Should this be included in the oppening bio? Currently, it only states that he was of Spanish and Irish decent.
I found the following information in Flame magazine. ( http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/che_guevara_irish_roots.htm) Is this worth including?
"As for the surname Guevara, it is believed to be of Basque origin, and is derived from the place name Guevara which is located in the Basque province of Alava. According to etymologists, the place name Guevara is derived from the Basque word "ebar" which means "fern or bracken". The earliest record of the surname is that of a donation made to the Order of Calatrava by Vela Ladron de Guevara in 1288. He was a descendant of Count Ladron Velez de Guevara, Senor of the House of Guevara, who described himself as a "Prince of the people of Navarre". (anon 10 Aug 2005)
Never heard of that. Argentinian, especially after the recent crisis, claim they come from boats. If the editor hasn't got a single proof, i think it should be deleted. Not a big case, except maybe for Basque revolutionaries?!
What about "I am Che Guevara and I have failed."? Even if it's not true (I wouldn't know about that), this quote is so famous that it should at least be mentioned somewhere. Shinobu 03:58, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
The quote is famous from a Times lead.
There are serious doubts about whether he actually said this when he died though:
Someone who reads this article is likely to know said Times lead. Not finding any info on it, but merely stating other (probably more probable) last words, may leave a reader with some questions.
As for a citation of this quote(?)'s famousness, it's been in the Times, one of the most well-known articles from one of the most well-known newspapers. It's still quoted in style guides. Shinobu 06:06, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
The Times, I think. Probably an issue not too long after his death. I have found the quote on the web (and also translated in various other languages), but the actual article predates 1985 and as such is not available on line. The lead went something like this:
This is not the actual article text, but maybe it's a help in locating it. Shinobu 06:24, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
"Mario Terán asked to be allowed to kill Che. "When I got there Che was sitting on a bench. When he saw me, he said "You have come to kill me" I didnt dare to shoot, and then the man said " Calm down, you are going to kill a man" Then I gave a step back, towards the door, I closed my eyes, and I fired the first burst. Che fell down with his legs torn, he twisted and started spilling a lot of blood. I recovered my temper and fired the second burst, wich hit him in the arm, a shoulder, and the hearth"" Paco Ignacio Taibo II, Ernesto Guevara, también conocido como El Che. First Ed. page 819. He is also quoted as having said "¡Tirá cobarde, que vas a matar a un hombre!" ("Shoot coward, For you are going to kill a man!" -- David Chapa 07:35, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Trust a journalist to guess Che's last words!
"all articles should be written from a neutral point of view, representing all majority- and significant-minority views fairly and without bias." Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
checking the history of the article and this talk page, the underlying goal is clear: prevent all blunt criticism of the subject. any attempt to add external criticism is nitpicked out the door as "POV", and brief, comparatively benign statements in the article are cited here as though they represent real criticism. they do not.
it is artifice to manufacture, when convenient, a requirement that cited external views be NPOV. the praise certainly isn't. wikipedia must be NPOV, but external, sourced statements in an article needn't. this article is muted yet ill-disguised fan blush, and it violates wikipedia policy on neutrality. there are many clear POV aspects in the article even before discussing exclusions. i would edit them, but the history suggests it would be futile without laying the groundwork here first. perhaps the best summary example, from the end of the article:
"Some believe that Guevara, called 'the most complete human being of our age' by the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre, will one day be considered as important an activist and thinker as Simón Bolívar, leader of the South American independence movement and hero to subsequent generations of nationalists throughout Latin America. Others believe that he was a hero of the Cuban revolution who was skillfully manipulated by Fidel Castro in order to inspire the masses, all the while being moved into positions where he would represent little or no danger to Fidel himself."
that is a clam bake. nowhere exists anything resembling the significant-minority view of those who assert, pointing to documentation at least as worthy as what underlies the gushing of the article, that guevara was a murderer. the worst in the summation is that he was still a hero, though one who was manipulated and not given his proper place in castro's empire. humberto fontova's view, for example, is not to be included, even in links? on what grounds — that he lived in cuba, has interviewed subjects who claim that guevara was nefarious, and wrote Fidel: Hollywood's Favorite Tyrant? because he says This swinish and murdering coward, this child-killer...?
stated on this page: The problem is that those who have been inclined to add criticism have mostly been inclined simply to add rants. In my experience, there's been a lot of this going around, especially with respect to right-wing criticism of figures on the left. It's not very interesting—and certainly not encyclopedic—to add that they are disliked by the Fontovas and Limbaughs of the world.
anybody harshly critical of guevara is pre-defined as an irrational, extremist lout, and therefore ineligible for inclusion. why does that sound familiar?
"Many groups would prefer that certain facts be stated euphemistically, or only in their own terminology, or suppressed outright; such desires need not be deferred to." Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial#Things not to avoid
humberto fontova: Che's slaughter of (bound and gagged) Cubans (Che was himself an Argentine) exceeded Heinrich Himmler's prewar slaughter of Germans—to scale, that is. So what happens today? Well, you see Che's face on t-shirts worn by people who oppose capital punishment!
his is a significant-minority view — absolutely POV, and absolutely relevant. the view above, or something similar, belongs in the hero-worshipping t-shirt snarf at the article finish, and the facts underlying it (at least) belong in the article in a manner other than brief dodges inserted for cover purposes (weasel-worded and filtered to basically conclude: "che killed only bad guys, though he did imprison this one good guy. forsooth"). someone will effectively deny these critical views are significant because they are "not interesting"? i believe they are far more interesting than monocular admiration passing itself off as NPOV, but neither opinion is relevant. the absence of any of the manifold strong criticisms makes the article POV, under the hidden premise that speaking well of a subject is necessarily NPOV.
wikipedia is not meant to ignore POV criticism, but rather to report it dispassionately and proportionately. quite passionate in the article and discussion is the stalwart blocking of unpopular views (POV enforcement). criticism of the man who really did what the article mostly dances around (e.g., systematic killing/brutality is referred to repeatedly as "the revolution", implying it was the good kind of killing/brutality, only against "bad guys") must be present to comply with wikipedia's neutrality policy. where is the countering view? not here. the "criticism" links at the bottom (not found as text in the article) are sparse, and often mild — not representative of significant-minority criticism. the "Writings about Che Guevara" section ranges from benign to fawning. real criticism (i.e., not softball) is limited to a few links amid overt paeans in a section titled "Criticism, praise, etc." — after we've read in the article what a hero he was, with sparse, mild descriptions of what he was really up to pointed to as criticism.
let guevara stand in front of the world audience, not just the ticket-buying fans. but first accept two truths, if they apply: 1) you favor the subject. 2) you protect him from criticism. the first is acceptable at wikipedia; the second not.
i encourage others to read every word of the article, as i have, and isolate all of the praise, weasel words, and criticism. read the "Hero cult" close of the article, then see if you can find balance to that elsewhere. look outside wikipedia and see what is said about guevara, even in circles you might not frequent or prefer. that whole body of opinion is not represented well here.
"Wikipedia articles are not:
SaltyPig 11:36, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
When I said "partial response" I meant only that I was not responding to all of your points. As for leaving the description "the most complete human being of our age", the reason it merits keeping is that it was Sartre who said it. If you can come up with a quotation from a comparably (not even necessarily equally) important figure speaking against him (there should be plenty out there, do some research) I'd support it going in the article.
Frankly, though, if you want to keep questioning the motives of the other contributors (just in the last paragraph: "diversionary straw man", "typical of the fallacious tactics", "you don't like hearing", "if i were vapid enough"), I'm not very interested in dealing with you. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:44, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
01 September 2005
Perhaps someone would like to correct the section re the Congo. Che left Cuba after renouncing his Cuban citizenship in April 1965 -- he was definitely not leading a guerrilla movement in the Congo in 1964. Also, because of this sequence of events, the section on the Wiki page re the Congo should follow, not precede, the section about Che leaving Cuba.
Jmabel | Talk 21:04, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
I would suggest something like : Guevara was not present when Fidel triumphantly entered Havana on January 8, he was sent with a separate rebel column to capture another major city for the rebels. According to the book "Diary of the Cuban Revolution", Fidel Castro may have viewed Che as a potentially dangerous and popular rival. Ericd 21:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
1. "distant grandfather" -- this peculiar language caught my attention also and I was about to change it to "ancestor" when it occurred to me that "ancestor" is sometimes used, albeit incorrectly, when there is not a direct line of descent whereas saying "distant grandfather" clarifies that issue. How do you feel about "forebear"?
2. Thank you very much for pointing out that typo of "LL" where it should be "Ll" -- I'll fix it, if you haven't already.
3. The claim re Castro perceiving Che as a "rival" is expressed elsewhere in this article but there too it is unsourced. I think that, in reality, Fidel perceived Che more as a "loose cannon" than as a threat to his hold on power. Be that as it may, I certainly agree with you that any claims about their relationship should be accompanied by citations and hope that the person(s) who inserted those claims into this article will add the appropriate citations.
Polaris999 19:05, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
In one place in this article it says "Rodriguez had removed Guevara's hands to send to different parts of the world to verify his identity." In another place, it says "Also his hands were cut off and sent to Fidel Castro."
Is there documentation for the statement that it was Felix Rodriguez who cut off Che's hands? If so, would someone please attach the citation?
It is well known that in 1968 Che's hands, preserved in a jar of formaldehyde, were sent to Fidel Castro by Bolivian Interior Minister Antonio Arguedas; I am not aware of any evidence that suggests they had ever been sent to "different parts of the world to verify his identity". It is my understanding that his identity was confirmed by fingerprint analysis which was performed by two Argentine forensic experts who were sent to Bolivia for the purpose of comparing the prints taken from the body to ones known to be Che's that were on file in Buenos Aires. Polaris999 20:49, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
-- I just removed the following text from the article. I have no opinion on this matter myself, just thought it didn't belong where it was placed -- JoanneB 22:44, 8 September 2005 (UTC) --
"The birth certificate may have been deliberately falsified to help shield the family from a scandal relating to his mother's having been three months pregnant when she was married." Why is this included in the article. What has it got to do with Guevara. It is merely a circumstance of birth. Puts an expose flavor to the article which really doesn't belong in Wikipedia (Unsigned by 71.28.252.57)
A couple of minutes ago, when I tried to save a minor edit I had just done to improve the formatting of the caption on the lead photo, the SAVE was blocked and I got the following message from Wiki:
"The page you wanted to save was blocked by the spam filter. This is probably caused by a link to an external site.
"See m:Spam blacklist for a full list of blocked sites. If you believe that the spam filter is mistakenly blocking the edit, then please contact an m:Administrator. The following is the section of the page that triggered the filter:
"The following text is what triggered our spam filter: http://chehasta.nar--.ru " (where the two dashes represent the letters "od")
I tried again to save the page, but received the same message. Then I searched for the link mentioned in the error message and deleted it from the text of the article. After that, I was able to save the page without any problem.
Polaris999 04:57, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
What do we need to do to resolve the NPOV status of this article? I notice that Wiki says that there are too many articles in the NPOV category and that every effort should be made to remedy their problems and move them out ... Help anyone?? Polaris999 03:08, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Since several of us have recently done a significant amount of work on this article, attempting in the process to address NPOV issues, isn't it time for it to be re-evaluated? Furthermore, it would be much more helpful for those of us who are working on it if specific sections that are considered to have an NPOV issue by some would be flagged individually. Having the NPOV flag attached to the entire article really does not tell us much, and is of no assistance in trying to figure out which particular sentences may be of concern to those who have NPOV issues ...
Should this article perhaps be submitted for "Peer Review" in order to elicit comments and suggestions from other Wikipedians?
Polaris999 19:49, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I have noticed that this page has two "sets" of notes currently ongoing. The first set, all of which are displayed in the text in superscript, are footnotes (at present 1-5), which according to the wiki "help" page concerning notes is the only approved usage, viz.:
But there is another set of notes, numbered 1 and 2, that are not superscripted. These notes are not footnotes but rather links to external sources.
Furthermore, even footnotes(1-5) that are in correct format are not in the currently preferred wiki style that uses names rather than numbers, so it would seem that all of the notes in this article need to be re-done to eliminate the existing duplication and incorrect format, and also to bring them into conformity with preferred wiki standards. Polaris999 22:18, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Is his name pronounced like Chey Ga-veh-raa?
Polaris999 19:58, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
It depends somewhat on where you are from. Cheh Geh-vah-rah would certainly be a common pronunciation by an English-language speaker, although that "eh" isn't quite on the mark. About halfway between the vowel sounds in "them" and "they". -- Jmabel | Talk 03:36, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
At present, the article contains the following text:
"In 1959, he was appointed commander of the La Cabaña Fortress prison. During his term as commander of the fortress from 1959–1963, he oversaw the hasty trials and executions of many former Batista regime officials, including members of the BRAC[2] secret police (some sources say 156 people, others estimate as many as 500)."
The dates given here for his tenure at La Cabaña, i.e.,"1959-1963", are not ones that I have ever seen elsewhere. It is my understanding that he was in command of La Cabaña from his arrival there on January 2, 1959 until his departure from Cuba on June 12, 1959 at the head of a diplomatic and commercial delegation that visited various countries in Asia, Africa and Europe. Upon returning to Cuba in September, he did not go back to La Cabaña but rather took up a new post as Director of Industrialization at INRA (the National Institute for Agrarian Reform). Both Anderson and Castañeda support this version of events. Therefore, I would like to request that the person who wrote that Guevara was the commander of La Cabaña from "1959-1963" kindly provide a citation for that statement and that, if it cannot be properly sourced, the dates be changed to correspond with those used by Anderson and Castañeda. Polaris999 05:29, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
A lot recently added photos have no copyright tag. Ericd 21:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
At 05:14 on 18 September 2005, an unregistered user changed the adjective in the first sentence of the lead paragraph in the Che article from "Marxist" to "Communist". I am wondering how other wikipedians feel about this change? Although Che held ideals that may be described as communist [and were so described by him], he never belonged to any Communist party. It would therefore seem to me that the adjective "Marxist" is more appropriate here, but I would like to hear what others think about this ... Polaris999 22:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
The following sentence, without citation, has been re-inserted into the Che article by Ericd, after having been recently removed by another user:
"Armando Valladares, who was imprisoned at La Cabana, documented Guevara's particular and personal interest in the interrogation, torture, and execution of prisoners."
All of the sources that I have been able to find say that Valladares was arrested and jailed in La Cabaña in 1960. Since Che's tenure as commander of La Cabaña was from January 2, 1959 until June 12, 1959, it is not possible that Che was in command while Valladares was imprisoned there and therefore Valladares cannot have experienced any mistreatment at his hands. Polaris999 19:18, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
This was an unsourced addition by TDC this was alleged in many sites on the net before TDC's "contributions". I've tried to verify and source some of TDC contributions and rewrite it in NPOV way. Personally, I don't consider Valladares as a reliable source. You're smarter than me in verifying the chronology. Ericd 00:08, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm a bit overbooked yet but I will try to post an extensive comment about the article next week. Ericd 09:09, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
The lead paragraph contains a sentence that ends:
"many believe the Bolivian government purposefully executed him in order to avoid a public trial and potential martyrization of Che's image."
I am wondering about the appropriateness of "purposefully" here, which strikes me as redundant. Has anyone ever been executed "accidentally"?
Would appreciate hearing the opinions of other wikipedians re whether "purposefully" should be left in this sentence, or removed ... Polaris999 05:08, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm... I don't know if "many believe" is right I haven't read it completely yet but CIA declassified documents seems to show than the CIA wanted Guevara alive. If you feel to dig in this here is the URL : http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB5/ Ericd 09:06, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
71.28.243.246 02:18, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Have you seen many people at the CIA facing "disciplinary procedures"? Cheers anyway!
I dont honestly know enough about the subject to identify any specific instances, but it appears to me that the Article is very reliant on Guevara's diaries, especially for the later period of his life. Obviously, the reason why is the lack of reliable sources on this time. But nevertheless, I'd be loath to describe ANY autobiographic source as unbiased. -- RaiderAspect 11:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I have removed a paragraph in the section "Hero Cult" - namely the following:
"Guevara, who murdered numerous people, and who jointly presided over the Cuban Communist movement that murdered thousands, has been adopted as the symbol of the Crypto-Communist " Anti-Globalization Campaign" as a "symbol of peace"! "
The text is clearly marked by significant anti-Guevara and anti-leftist bias; even though it couldn't hurt to include a passage about the use and significance of Che's image for current groups that may or may not have any affiliation with his life and thought (antiglobalism, popculture), this version is not at all fit for Wiki-material. Please rewrite the section, as soon as a consensus on the substance is reached.
Thanks, -- 212.123.167.171 14:55, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
There's a list at : http://canf.org/2005/1es/historia/2005-jun-01-documented-victims-of-che-guevara.htm
203.199.81.148 has added the following sentences to the section "Bolivia":
"Most of those Bolivians who were suspected of any alignment or even thought of cherishing any sympathy for Che Guevara were tortured for information and then summarily executed. By some estimates, around 300,000 people of Bolivia fell victim to the mass hunt orchestrated by the Bolivian government with the full support of the CIA."
Does this mean that 300,000 Bolivians were summarily executed during the 11 months that Che was in Bolivia? I have never heard anything like this before, but have no personal knowledge of the situation. Does anyone else have any information to confirm or debunk this statement? (No citation is provided by the 203.199.81.148.)
203.199.81.148 has also changed a paragraph in the "Capture and Execution" section that had read:
to
It seems to me that the last sentence may have POV problems ... Polaris999 18:54, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I see that Che Guevara is titled "Dr. Ernesto Rafael Guevara de le Serna" in the introduction, something I find to be factually incorrect. A degree in medicine (M.D) is not the same as a doctorate (Dr.), and although "Doctor" is somewhat interchangable with physician in everyday language, it's still factually incorrect and not suitable for an encyclopedic entry. Nothing in the article suggests that Che Guevara earned a doctorate in medicine (or any other field), and the prefix "Dr." is thus colloquial at best and misleading at worst, neither of which belongs in an encyclopedic article. I will now remove the prefix from the article(again), and ask that whoever reverts it explain why on this page.
OK, I see that it's been changed to M.D, which at least isn't factually incorrect. Kinda irrelevant for the introduction, though. It isn't a defining characteristic, and it's mentioned later in the article.
In the section Criticism, praise, etc., someone has failed to enter an item in correct wiki format; I have highlighted this item in red below. As a result of the incorrect manner in which this item was entered, it is appearing as footnote #20, although it is not a footnote at all, and therefore threatens to destroy the format of the entire article. Because of this, I am removing it and hope that the wikipedian who entered it will be careful to use the correct syntax if he/she wishes to enter it again.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara, 1928-1967 Critical look at Guevara's life from an anarchist perspective.
Hasta siempre, Comandante, popular song by Carlos Puebla (lyrics, notation, and several digital audio formats)
Hasta siempre, Comandante performed by Carlos Puebla and his group Los Tradicionales, in RealPlayer format -- click to listen
Carta al Che performed by Carlos Puebla and his group Los Tradicionales, in .wav format -- click to listen
[20]]Fidel's Executioner
By Humberto Fontova
Polaris999 04:01, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I wrote much of the content in this article a little over a year ago. Since then this article has been loaded once again with way too many iconic images of Guevara. This is unencyclopedic, as the article is on the real Guevara-- not the icon in Communist agitprop or Western pop culture. I'm going to go ahead and remove some of the iconic photos. 172 | Talk 18:41, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
This article might also be able to do without the large list of external links originating or pertaining to Western sources. It should strike people as odd that few of them are related to literature, monuments, or events sponsored by the Cuban Communist Party. Whether Che's Western admirers like it or not, his legacy is most notable in connection with the Cuban Communist Party, which he was instrumental in transforming into the single ruling party of Cuba. 172 | Talk 18:32, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
As this is an article about the man Ernesto Guevara, I thought it might be better if we would create a seperate article for the unfortunate commercialization of Ernesto's image. It has nothing to do with who Che was, and he always had a feeling of intense dislike of celebrities, commercialization, hero worshipping, etc. So I suggest we create a seperate article for that. - NWOG, 01:24, 22 October 2005
No one can argue with your point. But I don't see the problem with keeping the section on the hero cult toward the end, so long as it stays within reasonable limits. 172 | Talk 01:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
This is Archive 2 covering approximately 14 Jan 2005 to 22 October 2005 |
while the article isn't bad, i don't think there's enough about criticisms of Che, which certainly do exist (as well as criticisms of the pop culture Che-shirts worn by a lot of younger people.) this doesn't mean we have to include rants like Fontova's, but there certainly are people that believe that Che was ideologically rigid (in usual Communist fashion) and that he was willing to support great violent means for "the Revolution" (ends justify the means -- also remember the call for "many Vietnams," though I think that might already be in there.) i'm sure there are plenty of Cuban-Americans who don't think too highly of him as well. he certainly is an icon, and admired by a lot of people, but we shouldn't downplay legitimate criticism. J. Parker Stone 4 July 2005 23:12 (UTC)
Che = Communism = Evil = Hitler. This is a great contribution to the article :
Many right-wing criticism of Guevara by Wikipedian is worth nothing because it's only POV. As for the "quality" of this article, let's quote the article :
"Guevara took responsibility for the execution of informers, insubordinates, deserters and spies in the revolutionary army. He personally executed Eutimio Guerra, a suspected Batista informant, with a single shot from his .32(7.65mm) caliber pistol."
"In 1959, Guevara was appointed commander of the La Cabana Fortress prison. During his term as commander of the fortress from 1959–1963, he oversaw the hasty trials and executions of many former Batista regime officials, including members of the BRAC secret police (some sources say 156 people, others estimate as many as 500). Poet and human rights activist Armando Valladares, who was imprisoned at La Cabana, documented Guevara's particular and personal interest in the interrogation, torture, and execution of prisoners."
"Prior to the Cuban Missile Crisis, Guevara was part of a Cuban delegation to Moscow in early 1962 with Raúl Castro where he endorsed the planned placement of Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba. Guevara believed that the placement of Soviet missiles would protect Cuba from any direct military action against it from the United States. Jon Lee Anderson reports that after the crisis Guevara told Sam Russell, a British correspondent for the socialist newspaper Daily Worker, that if the missiles had been under Cuban control, they would have fired them."
Do you have facts to add ? Ericd 21:40, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Regarding facts to add, I suggest that the numerous documented facts of Guevara's murders, torture, and cruel behaviour should be added. See these articles:
http://frontpagemag.org/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12467 http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,1258340,00.html http://bureaucrash.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=40
To quote the Slate article ( http://slate.msn.com/id/2107100/), "Che presided over the Cuban Revolution's first firing squads. He founded Cuba's "labor camp" system—the system that was eventually employed to incarcerate gays, dissidents, and AIDS victims." If any other leader were to institute concentration camps, there would surely be comparisons to Hitler and Stalin. Why is there little to no mention of Che's atrocities. It seems that his cult status grants him immunity from these troubling facts. JianLi 00:27, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
where are facts supporting the claim to che's execution of 156 people and the claim that some were killed just due to ideological differences? i mean is citing a book someone wrote claiming something, a fact? [user: suki]
User:Centralman seems determined to add to the article this factoid that "The current Hong Kong Legislative Council member, Leung Kwok-Hung is an avid fan of Che Guevara." I have reverted him once, and would welcome a revert by someone else. I cannot readily imagine why that is encyclopedic, and even if true and for some reason notable (for example, if he is attempting to promote policies in Hong Kong modeled insome way on Latin American Marxist revolutionary traditions), it would seem to me to belong in an article on Leung Kwok-Hung, not one on Che Guevara. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:14, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)
Under the Cuba section this text can be found: "He personally executed Eutimio Guerra, a suspected Batista informant, with a single shot from his .32 caliber (7.65 mm, likely a Soviet-made Makarov) pistol."
Either it was a .32/7.65mm pistol or a Makarov. The Makarov uses the 9x18mm Makarov cartridge. Since I really can't say which is right, or what the weapon in question really was, I didn't want to edit the entry. (I've also just registered, although I have been using Wikipedia for a while. Besides, this is really nitpicking...)
Offhand, I'd guess the Makarov wasn't all too available at the time. Perhaps this was a Soviet Tokarev TT pistol (this used the same 7.62mm ammunition as the PPSh)? --Karl Gunnarsson 01:34, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This is stupid ! .32/7,65mm is a very common caliber and I believe that at that time Castro had no direct support from the USSR. Ericd 11:03, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
While the caliber may be similar the ballistics of the rounds are far different and the Russian variant far more powerful. Given the weapons use in the Sierra Maestra the US .32 caliber is the most probable round, and weapon, used. BTW Eutimio Guerra is reported to have been a well known and popular "agrarian reformer" way before Castro reached those mountains, and as to Guerra being an informant we only have Castro's and the Che's words for it. El Jigüe 11/30/05
Cut from article:
Some have speculated however, that the hero worship of Che is precisely something he wouldn't have wanted - the T-shirts bearing his image have become fashion statements and are sometimes very expensive. The ideals that Che had fought are oftentimes opposite of today's crass consumerism indulged by young people.
True enough that some have speculated this, but POV speculation has no place in the article. If you can cite someone reasonably authoritative on what Che would and wouldn't have wanted, fine, but blind speculation? No. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:03, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)
took out the nazis quote (to make the point that whatever link was nazi). The dispute is resolved, we can delete this shit. Hope nobody revert this edit!
I see this was recently anonymously changed from Rosario (I know where that is, it's a city, it's where I thought he was from) to Lancia. No citation (or even edit summary) was given. Does anyone have a citation either way? -- Jmabel | Talk 21:25, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)
Rosario is correct according to The Che Handbook ISBN 1-84072-502-8 and several other books I have.-- Garsanllean 17:03, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
A recent anon edit changed the number of Granma survivors from 12 to 16 without citation. Since the old number wasn't cited either, I have no idea which was correct, but I presume someone has a citation on this; could you please present it? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:58, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
The Granma arrived on 25th November 1956. According to The Che Handbook ISBN 1-84072-502-8 by the end of December "only 15 of the original 82 guerillas remained, the others being either dead, missing, or taken prisoner".-- Garsanllean 17:09, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Well, i've just been banned at ernesto-guevara.com for the comments I posted above about the site, I'd just like to make clear that comradeche.com is just a redirect to the same site.-- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:15, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
INSERT Dunno whether the Che smoked dope. However, it was readily available from Crescencio Perez who grew the stuff for sale, and Castro said known to tolerate it because he needed Crescencio's help. In addition, the hills were full of the stuff, coffee plantation owners tried to get rid of it because of the effect on the workers. The Casquitos were said to smoke it to banish fear and fatigue as they climbed the hills, but I do not know for certain for I tried not to get so close that I could smell their breath. xe xe. El Jigüe 12/4/05
Yes, you were indeed banned but not simply for the comments you posted above about the site but the fact that you're trying to stump the growth of ComradeChe.com by
1) Removing links to ComradeChe site from Wikipedia articles. 2) Making unfounded slanders such as the site is ran by "Fascists". I run the site and I'm a pupil of Marx, Engels and Lenin, however, you continue to lie. What will this achieve?
P.S. Where did I ever express "Fascist" views? -- Tarasi 12:50, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I will consider the points you raised. However, in the mean time, please cease your attempts to stump the growth of my site. The fact remains is, I don't nearly have enough time to maintain the forums in a manner I'd like to, most of the admins and moderators were democratically elected by the forum populace. I'm honestly too busy with real political work to get involved in petty internet squabbles and I cannot spend 12 hours a day online in an attempt to stop you from editing links from these pages. Do you see me editing out links to Che-Lives on the grounds that it is infested with drug users and anarchists? So what is your problem? Is your life honestly confined to fighting what you see as Fascism on the internet?
I tolerated you for months and months and listening to your critisms, yet you continue to slander both me and my site in public, you've never once raised these issues with me in private.
I demodded Iron Feliks last week and gave him a warning to cease his impersenation of Jews, I also debated him on Oswald Mosley to which he stopped replying. Honestly, what do you want? You've never taken action against members of your site who have spammed my site in the past, 100% of your posts tend to be centered on "banning the Fascists", why do you expect me to ban almost all of the orginal founders and most active contributors?
Stop removing the links from Wikipedia, what are you attempting to achieve by doing this? -- Tarasi 21:34, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I think this discussion is only marginally relevant to Wikipedia, except insofar as it bears on whether or not we should link to the site in question. We want to link from Wikipedia to sites that are of a quality comparable to our own; Wikipedia is not a link farm. Tarasi, the promotion of your site is not one of Wikipedia's goals, and given that you say in almost so many words that the reason you want a link here is to promote your site, that is an argument against linking to it. If Che y Marijuana is correct that your site includes an lot of uninformed neo-fascist contributors, and that it is relatively short on solid content, that is highly relevant to Wikipedia, and if it's inconvenient for you, that's not really Wikipedia's affair. Also, frankly, the efforts a few months back to "kidnap" an existing link and redirect it to your site tend to bias me strongly against the site, and I doubt that I'm alone in that. The adoption of new names and then sneaking it back in without discussion doesn't exactly make a positive impression, either. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:19, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
Jmabel covers it pretty well. As for discussing this with you, I have, and you never seemed very interested in doing anything about it. If you'd like to discuss this further, wikipedia is not the best place. You know where I am, just drop me a line. In the meantime, I will abstain from reverting you for the time being. -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 05:57, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
Cut from article:
Communists generally have opposed only "Western" imperialism or colonialism, while overlooking or even endorsing Soviet imperialism and colonialism (and/or that of other Communist forces). The gist is that Marxism-Leninism is not opposed to these things per se, but only insomuch as they represent obstacles to a Communist victory. Recall that Communist morality is not absolute, but measures all things good and bad in terms of how well it "advances communism".
Communists like to say they are against various Western abuses, but they say this chiefly to condemn the West - rather than out of a belief that these things are bad in and of themselves.
I'm guessing that Che only opposed Western imperialism, but if there's any record that he opposed Soviet or Cuban imperialism as well (as in Angola) that would make for a very interesting article! -- Uncle Ed (talk) 19:00, May 5, 2005 (UTC)
I'm amazed to find not one word about whether the spelling is "Che" or "Ché". I've seen the latter in a number of publications, most recently in Famous Last Words (C. B. Ruffin). Yet there is no clarification which it truly is, nor is was there even a redirect from
Ché Guevara for those who might think to spell it this way. In my own ignorance, I can't tell if this is a case of English authors ignoring inconvenient accents or the equally peculiar habit of adding accents where they may not be needed. Can someone authoritatively state (preferably with cited references) which is correct? Not only is it a question of how to spell the appropriate Spanish (or Argentinian slang) for "buddy", but it's perhaps more important how Guevara himself (or his buddies) spelled it, as people's names don't necessarily follow their origins. —
Jeff Q
(talk)
14:17, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
While it makes perfect sense to include links that are intellectually critical of Guevara, the articles by one Humberto Fontova that are currently in the Links section of this page are anything but that. I especially point to the following links:
http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y04/feb04/24e6.htm
http://www.lewrockwell.com/fontova/fontova44.html
http://www.sfherald.com/columnists/fontova/the_real_che.html
These are not impartial criticism of Guevara making a well-thought out analysis on him, but rather hissy fits regarding Che Guevara. I consider these links inappropriate to have on a site that is supposed to be informational for the following reasons:
While they are a great comic relief compared to all the serious articles on Che, their hilarity does not justify them being linked to by an informative site like Wikipedia. I'm removing them, if anybody seriously wants them back, we can always discuss it here, the links are posted above for review.
-- Eyeflash 17:45, 14 June 2005 (UTC)
A little one sided don't you think. The Che was known to separated himself from his group during action and he is known to have failed to support Rene Ramos Latour (Daniel) during the "Ofensiva." As a result Ramos Latour was killed. One of the problems with self descriptions of Castro's and Che war actions is that in order to enhance their "deeds" they needed to diminish or take credit for the actions of others. El Jigüey, 11-30-05
While it's not exactly the most relevant piece of info in the article, I added the United States to the list of countries of origin of tourists to Che's grave...while I would bet hundreds have been there, a close friend of mine has been there at the very least :) I couldn't decide where to add the United States to the list. I didn't want to put it first or last for emphasis since that seems US-centric, but at the same time I don't think it shouldn't be lost in the middle since it involves breaking the law for an American citizen (AFAIK it's not illegal for the citizens of any of the other countries listed), which I think makes it more interesting that people make an effort to do it.
So (sheesh this is long) I did the logical thing and put them all in alphabetic order...hope that's cool with everyone. -- Lance 1 July 2005 18:16 (UTC)
Yes, that is good. And for the record, Americans can visit Cuba legally if they have a travel license issued by the Treasury Department. Not easy to get, but there are ways. . .
Do we really need three separate (recently added) passages to the effect that Fidel Castro may have distrusted and exploited Che? Seems to me like this can far better go one place in the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:55, July 12, 2005 (UTC)
"Che-mart" is a moderately amusing humor site, but I don't think it merits a link.
The recently added sentence that begins, "The most widely agreed upon account is that Guevara received multiple shots to the legs...": On what basis is this described as "most widely agreed upon"? Indeed, is there any citation at all? It seems to me that all we have are the conflicting accounts of the few people present, and that anything else is speculation. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:17, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
"When the police killed him for leading a failed peasant revolt, Ché was wearing a gold watch."
It is said in the article that it was a Rolex. -- Chris
The Basque People's page on Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_people) states Guevara was of Basque ancestry: "Several of Argentina's Presidents have been of Basque descent, including Irigoyen, Aramburu and Urquiza, not to mention other figures, notably Che Guevara."
Should this be included in the oppening bio? Currently, it only states that he was of Spanish and Irish decent.
I found the following information in Flame magazine. ( http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/che_guevara_irish_roots.htm) Is this worth including?
"As for the surname Guevara, it is believed to be of Basque origin, and is derived from the place name Guevara which is located in the Basque province of Alava. According to etymologists, the place name Guevara is derived from the Basque word "ebar" which means "fern or bracken". The earliest record of the surname is that of a donation made to the Order of Calatrava by Vela Ladron de Guevara in 1288. He was a descendant of Count Ladron Velez de Guevara, Senor of the House of Guevara, who described himself as a "Prince of the people of Navarre". (anon 10 Aug 2005)
Never heard of that. Argentinian, especially after the recent crisis, claim they come from boats. If the editor hasn't got a single proof, i think it should be deleted. Not a big case, except maybe for Basque revolutionaries?!
What about "I am Che Guevara and I have failed."? Even if it's not true (I wouldn't know about that), this quote is so famous that it should at least be mentioned somewhere. Shinobu 03:58, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
The quote is famous from a Times lead.
There are serious doubts about whether he actually said this when he died though:
Someone who reads this article is likely to know said Times lead. Not finding any info on it, but merely stating other (probably more probable) last words, may leave a reader with some questions.
As for a citation of this quote(?)'s famousness, it's been in the Times, one of the most well-known articles from one of the most well-known newspapers. It's still quoted in style guides. Shinobu 06:06, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
The Times, I think. Probably an issue not too long after his death. I have found the quote on the web (and also translated in various other languages), but the actual article predates 1985 and as such is not available on line. The lead went something like this:
This is not the actual article text, but maybe it's a help in locating it. Shinobu 06:24, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
"Mario Terán asked to be allowed to kill Che. "When I got there Che was sitting on a bench. When he saw me, he said "You have come to kill me" I didnt dare to shoot, and then the man said " Calm down, you are going to kill a man" Then I gave a step back, towards the door, I closed my eyes, and I fired the first burst. Che fell down with his legs torn, he twisted and started spilling a lot of blood. I recovered my temper and fired the second burst, wich hit him in the arm, a shoulder, and the hearth"" Paco Ignacio Taibo II, Ernesto Guevara, también conocido como El Che. First Ed. page 819. He is also quoted as having said "¡Tirá cobarde, que vas a matar a un hombre!" ("Shoot coward, For you are going to kill a man!" -- David Chapa 07:35, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Trust a journalist to guess Che's last words!
"all articles should be written from a neutral point of view, representing all majority- and significant-minority views fairly and without bias." Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
checking the history of the article and this talk page, the underlying goal is clear: prevent all blunt criticism of the subject. any attempt to add external criticism is nitpicked out the door as "POV", and brief, comparatively benign statements in the article are cited here as though they represent real criticism. they do not.
it is artifice to manufacture, when convenient, a requirement that cited external views be NPOV. the praise certainly isn't. wikipedia must be NPOV, but external, sourced statements in an article needn't. this article is muted yet ill-disguised fan blush, and it violates wikipedia policy on neutrality. there are many clear POV aspects in the article even before discussing exclusions. i would edit them, but the history suggests it would be futile without laying the groundwork here first. perhaps the best summary example, from the end of the article:
"Some believe that Guevara, called 'the most complete human being of our age' by the French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre, will one day be considered as important an activist and thinker as Simón Bolívar, leader of the South American independence movement and hero to subsequent generations of nationalists throughout Latin America. Others believe that he was a hero of the Cuban revolution who was skillfully manipulated by Fidel Castro in order to inspire the masses, all the while being moved into positions where he would represent little or no danger to Fidel himself."
that is a clam bake. nowhere exists anything resembling the significant-minority view of those who assert, pointing to documentation at least as worthy as what underlies the gushing of the article, that guevara was a murderer. the worst in the summation is that he was still a hero, though one who was manipulated and not given his proper place in castro's empire. humberto fontova's view, for example, is not to be included, even in links? on what grounds — that he lived in cuba, has interviewed subjects who claim that guevara was nefarious, and wrote Fidel: Hollywood's Favorite Tyrant? because he says This swinish and murdering coward, this child-killer...?
stated on this page: The problem is that those who have been inclined to add criticism have mostly been inclined simply to add rants. In my experience, there's been a lot of this going around, especially with respect to right-wing criticism of figures on the left. It's not very interesting—and certainly not encyclopedic—to add that they are disliked by the Fontovas and Limbaughs of the world.
anybody harshly critical of guevara is pre-defined as an irrational, extremist lout, and therefore ineligible for inclusion. why does that sound familiar?
"Many groups would prefer that certain facts be stated euphemistically, or only in their own terminology, or suppressed outright; such desires need not be deferred to." Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial#Things not to avoid
humberto fontova: Che's slaughter of (bound and gagged) Cubans (Che was himself an Argentine) exceeded Heinrich Himmler's prewar slaughter of Germans—to scale, that is. So what happens today? Well, you see Che's face on t-shirts worn by people who oppose capital punishment!
his is a significant-minority view — absolutely POV, and absolutely relevant. the view above, or something similar, belongs in the hero-worshipping t-shirt snarf at the article finish, and the facts underlying it (at least) belong in the article in a manner other than brief dodges inserted for cover purposes (weasel-worded and filtered to basically conclude: "che killed only bad guys, though he did imprison this one good guy. forsooth"). someone will effectively deny these critical views are significant because they are "not interesting"? i believe they are far more interesting than monocular admiration passing itself off as NPOV, but neither opinion is relevant. the absence of any of the manifold strong criticisms makes the article POV, under the hidden premise that speaking well of a subject is necessarily NPOV.
wikipedia is not meant to ignore POV criticism, but rather to report it dispassionately and proportionately. quite passionate in the article and discussion is the stalwart blocking of unpopular views (POV enforcement). criticism of the man who really did what the article mostly dances around (e.g., systematic killing/brutality is referred to repeatedly as "the revolution", implying it was the good kind of killing/brutality, only against "bad guys") must be present to comply with wikipedia's neutrality policy. where is the countering view? not here. the "criticism" links at the bottom (not found as text in the article) are sparse, and often mild — not representative of significant-minority criticism. the "Writings about Che Guevara" section ranges from benign to fawning. real criticism (i.e., not softball) is limited to a few links amid overt paeans in a section titled "Criticism, praise, etc." — after we've read in the article what a hero he was, with sparse, mild descriptions of what he was really up to pointed to as criticism.
let guevara stand in front of the world audience, not just the ticket-buying fans. but first accept two truths, if they apply: 1) you favor the subject. 2) you protect him from criticism. the first is acceptable at wikipedia; the second not.
i encourage others to read every word of the article, as i have, and isolate all of the praise, weasel words, and criticism. read the "Hero cult" close of the article, then see if you can find balance to that elsewhere. look outside wikipedia and see what is said about guevara, even in circles you might not frequent or prefer. that whole body of opinion is not represented well here.
"Wikipedia articles are not:
SaltyPig 11:36, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
When I said "partial response" I meant only that I was not responding to all of your points. As for leaving the description "the most complete human being of our age", the reason it merits keeping is that it was Sartre who said it. If you can come up with a quotation from a comparably (not even necessarily equally) important figure speaking against him (there should be plenty out there, do some research) I'd support it going in the article.
Frankly, though, if you want to keep questioning the motives of the other contributors (just in the last paragraph: "diversionary straw man", "typical of the fallacious tactics", "you don't like hearing", "if i were vapid enough"), I'm not very interested in dealing with you. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:44, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
01 September 2005
Perhaps someone would like to correct the section re the Congo. Che left Cuba after renouncing his Cuban citizenship in April 1965 -- he was definitely not leading a guerrilla movement in the Congo in 1964. Also, because of this sequence of events, the section on the Wiki page re the Congo should follow, not precede, the section about Che leaving Cuba.
Jmabel | Talk 21:04, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
I would suggest something like : Guevara was not present when Fidel triumphantly entered Havana on January 8, he was sent with a separate rebel column to capture another major city for the rebels. According to the book "Diary of the Cuban Revolution", Fidel Castro may have viewed Che as a potentially dangerous and popular rival. Ericd 21:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
1. "distant grandfather" -- this peculiar language caught my attention also and I was about to change it to "ancestor" when it occurred to me that "ancestor" is sometimes used, albeit incorrectly, when there is not a direct line of descent whereas saying "distant grandfather" clarifies that issue. How do you feel about "forebear"?
2. Thank you very much for pointing out that typo of "LL" where it should be "Ll" -- I'll fix it, if you haven't already.
3. The claim re Castro perceiving Che as a "rival" is expressed elsewhere in this article but there too it is unsourced. I think that, in reality, Fidel perceived Che more as a "loose cannon" than as a threat to his hold on power. Be that as it may, I certainly agree with you that any claims about their relationship should be accompanied by citations and hope that the person(s) who inserted those claims into this article will add the appropriate citations.
Polaris999 19:05, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
In one place in this article it says "Rodriguez had removed Guevara's hands to send to different parts of the world to verify his identity." In another place, it says "Also his hands were cut off and sent to Fidel Castro."
Is there documentation for the statement that it was Felix Rodriguez who cut off Che's hands? If so, would someone please attach the citation?
It is well known that in 1968 Che's hands, preserved in a jar of formaldehyde, were sent to Fidel Castro by Bolivian Interior Minister Antonio Arguedas; I am not aware of any evidence that suggests they had ever been sent to "different parts of the world to verify his identity". It is my understanding that his identity was confirmed by fingerprint analysis which was performed by two Argentine forensic experts who were sent to Bolivia for the purpose of comparing the prints taken from the body to ones known to be Che's that were on file in Buenos Aires. Polaris999 20:49, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
-- I just removed the following text from the article. I have no opinion on this matter myself, just thought it didn't belong where it was placed -- JoanneB 22:44, 8 September 2005 (UTC) --
"The birth certificate may have been deliberately falsified to help shield the family from a scandal relating to his mother's having been three months pregnant when she was married." Why is this included in the article. What has it got to do with Guevara. It is merely a circumstance of birth. Puts an expose flavor to the article which really doesn't belong in Wikipedia (Unsigned by 71.28.252.57)
A couple of minutes ago, when I tried to save a minor edit I had just done to improve the formatting of the caption on the lead photo, the SAVE was blocked and I got the following message from Wiki:
"The page you wanted to save was blocked by the spam filter. This is probably caused by a link to an external site.
"See m:Spam blacklist for a full list of blocked sites. If you believe that the spam filter is mistakenly blocking the edit, then please contact an m:Administrator. The following is the section of the page that triggered the filter:
"The following text is what triggered our spam filter: http://chehasta.nar--.ru " (where the two dashes represent the letters "od")
I tried again to save the page, but received the same message. Then I searched for the link mentioned in the error message and deleted it from the text of the article. After that, I was able to save the page without any problem.
Polaris999 04:57, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
What do we need to do to resolve the NPOV status of this article? I notice that Wiki says that there are too many articles in the NPOV category and that every effort should be made to remedy their problems and move them out ... Help anyone?? Polaris999 03:08, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Since several of us have recently done a significant amount of work on this article, attempting in the process to address NPOV issues, isn't it time for it to be re-evaluated? Furthermore, it would be much more helpful for those of us who are working on it if specific sections that are considered to have an NPOV issue by some would be flagged individually. Having the NPOV flag attached to the entire article really does not tell us much, and is of no assistance in trying to figure out which particular sentences may be of concern to those who have NPOV issues ...
Should this article perhaps be submitted for "Peer Review" in order to elicit comments and suggestions from other Wikipedians?
Polaris999 19:49, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I have noticed that this page has two "sets" of notes currently ongoing. The first set, all of which are displayed in the text in superscript, are footnotes (at present 1-5), which according to the wiki "help" page concerning notes is the only approved usage, viz.:
But there is another set of notes, numbered 1 and 2, that are not superscripted. These notes are not footnotes but rather links to external sources.
Furthermore, even footnotes(1-5) that are in correct format are not in the currently preferred wiki style that uses names rather than numbers, so it would seem that all of the notes in this article need to be re-done to eliminate the existing duplication and incorrect format, and also to bring them into conformity with preferred wiki standards. Polaris999 22:18, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Is his name pronounced like Chey Ga-veh-raa?
Polaris999 19:58, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
It depends somewhat on where you are from. Cheh Geh-vah-rah would certainly be a common pronunciation by an English-language speaker, although that "eh" isn't quite on the mark. About halfway between the vowel sounds in "them" and "they". -- Jmabel | Talk 03:36, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
At present, the article contains the following text:
"In 1959, he was appointed commander of the La Cabaña Fortress prison. During his term as commander of the fortress from 1959–1963, he oversaw the hasty trials and executions of many former Batista regime officials, including members of the BRAC[2] secret police (some sources say 156 people, others estimate as many as 500)."
The dates given here for his tenure at La Cabaña, i.e.,"1959-1963", are not ones that I have ever seen elsewhere. It is my understanding that he was in command of La Cabaña from his arrival there on January 2, 1959 until his departure from Cuba on June 12, 1959 at the head of a diplomatic and commercial delegation that visited various countries in Asia, Africa and Europe. Upon returning to Cuba in September, he did not go back to La Cabaña but rather took up a new post as Director of Industrialization at INRA (the National Institute for Agrarian Reform). Both Anderson and Castañeda support this version of events. Therefore, I would like to request that the person who wrote that Guevara was the commander of La Cabaña from "1959-1963" kindly provide a citation for that statement and that, if it cannot be properly sourced, the dates be changed to correspond with those used by Anderson and Castañeda. Polaris999 05:29, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
A lot recently added photos have no copyright tag. Ericd 21:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
At 05:14 on 18 September 2005, an unregistered user changed the adjective in the first sentence of the lead paragraph in the Che article from "Marxist" to "Communist". I am wondering how other wikipedians feel about this change? Although Che held ideals that may be described as communist [and were so described by him], he never belonged to any Communist party. It would therefore seem to me that the adjective "Marxist" is more appropriate here, but I would like to hear what others think about this ... Polaris999 22:36, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
The following sentence, without citation, has been re-inserted into the Che article by Ericd, after having been recently removed by another user:
"Armando Valladares, who was imprisoned at La Cabana, documented Guevara's particular and personal interest in the interrogation, torture, and execution of prisoners."
All of the sources that I have been able to find say that Valladares was arrested and jailed in La Cabaña in 1960. Since Che's tenure as commander of La Cabaña was from January 2, 1959 until June 12, 1959, it is not possible that Che was in command while Valladares was imprisoned there and therefore Valladares cannot have experienced any mistreatment at his hands. Polaris999 19:18, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
This was an unsourced addition by TDC this was alleged in many sites on the net before TDC's "contributions". I've tried to verify and source some of TDC contributions and rewrite it in NPOV way. Personally, I don't consider Valladares as a reliable source. You're smarter than me in verifying the chronology. Ericd 00:08, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm a bit overbooked yet but I will try to post an extensive comment about the article next week. Ericd 09:09, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
The lead paragraph contains a sentence that ends:
"many believe the Bolivian government purposefully executed him in order to avoid a public trial and potential martyrization of Che's image."
I am wondering about the appropriateness of "purposefully" here, which strikes me as redundant. Has anyone ever been executed "accidentally"?
Would appreciate hearing the opinions of other wikipedians re whether "purposefully" should be left in this sentence, or removed ... Polaris999 05:08, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Hmmm... I don't know if "many believe" is right I haven't read it completely yet but CIA declassified documents seems to show than the CIA wanted Guevara alive. If you feel to dig in this here is the URL : http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB5/ Ericd 09:06, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
71.28.243.246 02:18, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Have you seen many people at the CIA facing "disciplinary procedures"? Cheers anyway!
I dont honestly know enough about the subject to identify any specific instances, but it appears to me that the Article is very reliant on Guevara's diaries, especially for the later period of his life. Obviously, the reason why is the lack of reliable sources on this time. But nevertheless, I'd be loath to describe ANY autobiographic source as unbiased. -- RaiderAspect 11:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I have removed a paragraph in the section "Hero Cult" - namely the following:
"Guevara, who murdered numerous people, and who jointly presided over the Cuban Communist movement that murdered thousands, has been adopted as the symbol of the Crypto-Communist " Anti-Globalization Campaign" as a "symbol of peace"! "
The text is clearly marked by significant anti-Guevara and anti-leftist bias; even though it couldn't hurt to include a passage about the use and significance of Che's image for current groups that may or may not have any affiliation with his life and thought (antiglobalism, popculture), this version is not at all fit for Wiki-material. Please rewrite the section, as soon as a consensus on the substance is reached.
Thanks, -- 212.123.167.171 14:55, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
There's a list at : http://canf.org/2005/1es/historia/2005-jun-01-documented-victims-of-che-guevara.htm
203.199.81.148 has added the following sentences to the section "Bolivia":
"Most of those Bolivians who were suspected of any alignment or even thought of cherishing any sympathy for Che Guevara were tortured for information and then summarily executed. By some estimates, around 300,000 people of Bolivia fell victim to the mass hunt orchestrated by the Bolivian government with the full support of the CIA."
Does this mean that 300,000 Bolivians were summarily executed during the 11 months that Che was in Bolivia? I have never heard anything like this before, but have no personal knowledge of the situation. Does anyone else have any information to confirm or debunk this statement? (No citation is provided by the 203.199.81.148.)
203.199.81.148 has also changed a paragraph in the "Capture and Execution" section that had read:
to
It seems to me that the last sentence may have POV problems ... Polaris999 18:54, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I see that Che Guevara is titled "Dr. Ernesto Rafael Guevara de le Serna" in the introduction, something I find to be factually incorrect. A degree in medicine (M.D) is not the same as a doctorate (Dr.), and although "Doctor" is somewhat interchangable with physician in everyday language, it's still factually incorrect and not suitable for an encyclopedic entry. Nothing in the article suggests that Che Guevara earned a doctorate in medicine (or any other field), and the prefix "Dr." is thus colloquial at best and misleading at worst, neither of which belongs in an encyclopedic article. I will now remove the prefix from the article(again), and ask that whoever reverts it explain why on this page.
OK, I see that it's been changed to M.D, which at least isn't factually incorrect. Kinda irrelevant for the introduction, though. It isn't a defining characteristic, and it's mentioned later in the article.
In the section Criticism, praise, etc., someone has failed to enter an item in correct wiki format; I have highlighted this item in red below. As a result of the incorrect manner in which this item was entered, it is appearing as footnote #20, although it is not a footnote at all, and therefore threatens to destroy the format of the entire article. Because of this, I am removing it and hope that the wikipedian who entered it will be careful to use the correct syntax if he/she wishes to enter it again.
Ernesto "Che" Guevara, 1928-1967 Critical look at Guevara's life from an anarchist perspective.
Hasta siempre, Comandante, popular song by Carlos Puebla (lyrics, notation, and several digital audio formats)
Hasta siempre, Comandante performed by Carlos Puebla and his group Los Tradicionales, in RealPlayer format -- click to listen
Carta al Che performed by Carlos Puebla and his group Los Tradicionales, in .wav format -- click to listen
[20]]Fidel's Executioner
By Humberto Fontova
Polaris999 04:01, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I wrote much of the content in this article a little over a year ago. Since then this article has been loaded once again with way too many iconic images of Guevara. This is unencyclopedic, as the article is on the real Guevara-- not the icon in Communist agitprop or Western pop culture. I'm going to go ahead and remove some of the iconic photos. 172 | Talk 18:41, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
This article might also be able to do without the large list of external links originating or pertaining to Western sources. It should strike people as odd that few of them are related to literature, monuments, or events sponsored by the Cuban Communist Party. Whether Che's Western admirers like it or not, his legacy is most notable in connection with the Cuban Communist Party, which he was instrumental in transforming into the single ruling party of Cuba. 172 | Talk 18:32, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
As this is an article about the man Ernesto Guevara, I thought it might be better if we would create a seperate article for the unfortunate commercialization of Ernesto's image. It has nothing to do with who Che was, and he always had a feeling of intense dislike of celebrities, commercialization, hero worshipping, etc. So I suggest we create a seperate article for that. - NWOG, 01:24, 22 October 2005
No one can argue with your point. But I don't see the problem with keeping the section on the hero cult toward the end, so long as it stays within reasonable limits. 172 | Talk 01:27, 22 October 2005 (UTC)