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![]() | This is Archive 11 covering approximately 28 December 2006 - 16 February 2007 |
Is it just me or are the repeated attempts to insert information about an American retail store removing Guevara's image from some product or other of marginal relevance to this article? I understand that many editors are from the United States, but - as I have written often on these pages - these additions give the rest of us the impression that we are sleeping with the elephant. Meaning that minor twitches in one corner of the world are magnified well out of proportion. As this "factoid" is of little interest to me, or I imagine the vast majority of people in the world who also know or care very little about American retail habits, perhaps these references are better suited to the Che Guevara in popular culture page.-- Zleitzen 12:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that it's probably true that Che's current popularity is mostly a symptom of the cited adolescent revolutionary romanticism. What I'm curious about is how that interacts with the recent Target controversy that I added to the article. I think this controversy is fairly notable and contributes to the analysis of current perception of Che, and it doesn't really fit in with the Che in pop culture article, so I put it in here. If you hate it, revert it, but I think it's important. My only concern is that it's right next to a sentence that says the image has lost its political connotation, which I think this disproves...seems to contradict itself. Anyone wanna help me fix this up? Also, I (poorly) edited some surrounding text to diminish the contradiction. Mikeliveshere 12:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
It would seem to me that Guevara's tactics were faulty and failed (thank G-d) for a number of reasons that include: (1) once it was clear that if the military of each country surrendered as in Cuba they would be executed, thus these militaries fought to the death; (2) Guevara despised and ignored the need for supporting militia (e.g. Escopeteros; (3) the preparation of his guerrillas in Cuba was often faulty (e.g. indigenous languages chosen were often incorrect for the area of action); (4) the personnel chosen were often ("White") or at least not indigenous to the area of action; (5) weapons and tactics of his opponents changed and improved, especially due to the Vietnam experience and above all his ideology of hate, his insistence on rigid ideological "purity" and a propensity to attempt to solve all problems through executions was alien to Latin American traditions. Documentation of this will follow in the next few days. El Jigue 12-28-06
Z: One of the best references on the bloody failure of the Guevaran approach to guerrilla warfare in Guatemala is: Le Bot, Yvon 1997 La guerra en tierras mayas (War in Mayan Lands). Fondo de Cultura Económica, Mexico D.F ISBN-10 9681645375, ISBN-13 978-9681645373
or if you prefer it in French: Lebot, Yvon 1992 La guerre en terre maya: Communauté, violence et modernité au Guatemala, 1970-1992 Editions Karthala. Paris ISBN-10 286537369X, ISBN-13 978-2865373697
Although this book gives too much credence to Rigoberta Menchú at the time it was written Menchú's little changes to history were not well known.
El Jigue 1-2-07
Hmmm perhaps you might address and give examples of the specific errors your professors see in that book. El Jigue 1-7-067
I posted a few sentences that mentioned Guevara's actions at La Cabana prison and the fact that he created Cuba's prison camps. I also cited an external source. This seems much better than the current statement that he was appointed to various posts in the Cuban government. The current version makes it seem like he was just some innocent bureaucrat.
I don't see why someone deleted my changes, unless you are determined to preserve the hero-worship flavor of the current article.
~Mike W.
Hello Mike,
This is a rather common occurence with regards to this article. I've noticed other past edits backed up by excellent sources, reverted very quickly, with condemnations coming against those who expanded the information here. Unfortunately, it seems as though most information that casts any sort of light deemed "negative" is wiped out.
Goatboy95 21:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Define anti-Cuba (note the upper case in Cuban) and since when was being anti-communist a crime or proof of bias (note lower case communist) El Jigue 1-18-07
One ponders if it is merely POV to consider anti-Cuba as equivalent to ant-Castro. El Jigue 1-21-07
"first he did not conducted any trial or execution himself nor were civilians ever executed there"
Hmmm, a fewllow named "Ruben," with whom I grew up would tend to disagree with that statement as he was a civilian executed at La Cabana. Actually, I remember the day his mother, wife and I went to see him for the last time. We heard the shots that killed him as we left the fort. Not quite sure where you found that information but, figured, in honor of those killed there, that this fact should be known. That's not to say that I don't understand where you're coming from - we've had 40-plus years of propaganda coming out of the island so, your misconseption is certainly explainable. Don't mean to burst your bubble.
Regards,
Goatboy95 00:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
There are six paragraphs about Guevara "disappearing". This may have made sense in 1965 as it was a secret then, well, it wasn't really, as said later on - "Despite the fact that Guevara sought to conceal his presence in the Congo, the U.S. government was fully aware of his location and activities: The National Security Agency (NSA) was intercepting all of his incoming and outgoing transmissions via equipment aboard the USNS Valdez, a floating listening post which continuously cruised the Indian Ocean off Dar-es-Salaam for that purpose." The US knew exactly where Guevara was, but that certainly didn't stop Voice of America etc. from spreading rumors that Guevara was jailed by Castro, there was a split in the Cuban leadership etc. Six paragraphs of uncited rumor from decades ago, which has been shown to be baseless conjecture doesn't warrant being in here. Even if it wasn't cited. "Castro's critics sometimes say his explanations for Guevara's disappearance have always been suspect (see below), and many found it surprising that Guevara never announced his intentions publicly, but only through an undated and uncharacteristically obsequious letter to Castro." Guevara announced his intentions not to remain in Cuba before he even landed in Cuba, this sort of thing is quite silly. Ruy Lopez 07:10, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
"Che" is not spelled chê or ché in Portuguese, but as tchê, and only like that. I know it because I'm from southern Brazil and use the expression frequently. The old text and the new one are down here.
"It was during this period that he acquired his famous nickname, "Che", due to his frequent use of the Argentine interjection ''Che'' ( pronounced /tʃe/), which is used in much the same way as "hey", "pal", "eh", or "mate" are employed colloquially in various English-speaking countries. Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, and southern Brazil (where the interjection is rendered 'chê' or 'ché' in written Portuguese) are the only areas where this expression is used, making it a trademark of the Rioplatense region".
"It was during this period that he acquired his famous nickname, "Che", due to his frequent use of the Argentine interjection ''Che'' ( pronounced /tʃe/), which is used in much the same way as "hey", "pal", "eh", or "mate" are employed colloquially in various English-speaking countries. Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, and southern Brazil (where the interjection is rendered 'tchê' in written Portuguese) are the only areas where this expression is used, making it a trademark of the Rioplatense region".
M Bhvilar 12:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
How reliable is Vilasuso's story about La Cabaña?, aparently he was a lawyer working there, but other than that, this is the only observation made in that particular section, no figures, no npov information, just the opinnion of one man, NPOV?:
(regarding La Cabaña) "According to José Vilasuso, an attorney who worked under Guevara at La Cabaña preparing indictments, these were lawless proceedings where "the facts were judged without any consideration to general juridical principles" and the findings were pre-determined by Guevara"
But why is the opinnion of one man that important to be placed here?, one quick look at the source will lead us that is from an anti-communist site [1], specialising in nothing but reader digest-like stories about cuban repression. Even though Vilasuso's own story has even been discredited by Gustavo Carmona, who was one of the prisoners in La Cabaña [2].
"How reliable is Vilasuso's story about La Cabaña?" That's like asking "How reliable is your source saying the Earth orbits the sun? LOL
Goatboy95 16:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
One has only to read "La Ley de la Sierra" to understand that these "trials" were carried out with systemic bias in favor of the prosecution [3] [4] [5]. "De acuerdo a la ley de la Sierra, se juzgaban hechos sin consideración de principios jurídicos generales. El derecho de Habeas Corpus había sido suprimido.
Las declaraciones del oficial investigador constituían pruebas irrefutables. El abogado defensor limitaba su acción a admitir las acusaciones aunque invocando la generosidad del gobierno, solicitaba una disminución de la condena. Por aquellos días Guevara era visible con su boina negra, tabaco ladeado, rostro cantinflesco, y brazo en cabestrillo. Estaba sumamente delgado y en el hablar pausado y frío, dejaba entrever su "posse" de eminencia gris y total sujección a la teoría marxista. En su despacho, se reunían numerosas personas discutiendo acaloradamente sobre la marcha del proceso revolucionario. Sin embargo, su conversación solía cargarse de ironía, nunca mostró alteración de temperamento y tampoco atendía criterios dispares. A más de un colega lo amonestó en privado, en público a todos: su consigna era de dominio público. "No demoren las causas, esto es una revolución, no usen métodos legales burgueses, las pruebas son secundarias. Hay que proceder por convicción. Es una pandilla de crimnales, asesinos. Además, recuerden que hay un tribunal de Apelación." El tribunal nunca declaró con lugar un recurso, confirmaba las sentencias de oficio y lo presidía el comandante Ernesto Guevera Serna." [6] El Although personal memories are not allowed here I can testify it was that way Jigue 1-16-07
"According to the law of the Mountain range, facts without consideration of general legal principles were judged. The right of Habeas Corpus had been suppressed. The declarations of the investigating officer constituted irrefutables tests. The defense counsel limited his action to admit the accusations although invoking the generosity of the government, he asked for a diminution of the sentence. By those days Guevara he was visible with his black beret, tipped tobacco, cantinflesco face, and arm in cabestrillo. He was extremely thin and in slow and cold speaking, posse "of gray eminence let glimpse his" and total attachment to the Marxist theory. In their office, numerous people met heatedly discussing on the march of the revolutionary process. Nevertheless, its conversation used to load itself of irony, it never showed alteration of temperament and it did not take care of criteria either different. To more of a colleague she admonished it in private, in public to all: its slogan era of public dominion. "they do not delay the causes, this is a revolution, do not use bourgeois legal methods, the tests are secondary. It is necessary to come by conviction. She is a gang of crimnales, assassins. In addition, they remember that there is a court of Appeal." The court never declared with place a resource, confirmed the office sentences and commander Ernesto Guevera Serna presided over." [ 7 ] the personal Although memories plows not allowed here I dog testify it was that way".
Aureliano: Were it worthwhile I might translated it but it seems that were I to do that it would be immediately erased. As it stands now in Wikipedia another language can be used if no other reference in"English could satisfactorily replace it El Jigue 1-21-07
Editors keep adding the category "humanitarian" to this article. I've removed it once, perhaps other users could better explain why this isn't really appropriate. Indeed Guevara went to work in a leper colony in his younger days, but by the early 60s he had been responsible for making various calls which accelerated near nuclear war, insulted and abused many of his subordinates, personally shot people in the head etc. He was been described as arrogant, brutal and overly aggressive even by his closest confidants. We're not talking about Mother Theresa here. -- Zleitzen 17:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
On January 16, 2007 anon user 200.28.199.74 removed the section Why is this guy so beloved? on this talk page. Though his methods may have been good-intentioned (and possible correct), should an anon-user have the right to remove other editors postings? GoodDay 00:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Aureliano: would it be malicious to say that that was their faith and profession.
el Jigue 1-21-06
Has this section been replaced yet? El Jigue 1-22-07
Aureliano but with that stuff be re-inserted. El Jigue 1-26-07
There is an academic reference at [7] which supports at least in part what I stated previously about the Che's purges in the Sierra. El Jigue 1-21-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 01:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
Z: The trouble with theSweig book is unbalanced source material. This deficiency is discribed in: Inside the Cuban Revolution: Fidel Castro and the Urban Underground.(Book Review) The Historian - June 22, 2004 Luis Martinez-Fernandez
Inside the Cuban Revolution: Fidel Castro and the Urban Underground. By Julia E. Sweig. (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 2002. Pp. xv, 254. $29.95.)
This review starts “Few, if any, t.....”
but the critical part of this review is:
"The bulk of the documentary evidence sustaining the book consists of hundreds of documents housed at the Cuban Council of State’s Office of Historic Affairs, which the Cuban government made available to Sweig while keeping the archive’s doors closed to other researchers. This valuable and fascinating collection of documents allowed the author to paint a well-documented and nuanced perspective on llano- sierra relations as well as on how the leaders of the 26th of July Movement related to other anti-Batista figures. These sources are complimented by much of the extant historiography on the insurrection and around twenty interviews that Sweig conducted in Cuba. Although the able use of the Council of State’s documents stands as one of the book’s most salient contributions, the admittedly sanitized nature of the document collection and the author’s failure to interview voices beyond those loyal to the Castro regime produces a somewhat distorted picture of the events and a more favorable portrayal of Castro. The correspondence between Castro and former president Carlos Prío Socarrás, for example, which was withheld from the author, would have most likely exposed the politiquero (politically opportunistic) side of Castro. Contrary to Sweig’s conclusion that Castro was opposed to politiquería, while scolding Hart and others for overtures to Cuba’s politicians, three years earlier he had maneuvered to secure for himself Havana’s mayoralty in exchange for supporting Justo Carrillo, leader of the Agrupación Montecristi, who at the time appeared most likely to emerge as the post-Batista leading figure. Likewise, had Sweig interviewed and/or used sources written by key protagonists who are not Castro supporters such as Colonel Ramón Barquín, Eloy Gutiérrez Menoyo, Carlos Franqui, Huber Matos, and Gustavo Arcos, to name only five, she would have produced a more accurate and balanced view of the Cuban insurrection. Unfortunately, such manifestations of Miami-phobia plague much of the scholarship on Cuba. Despite these problems in terms of the selection of sources, Sweig’s book is an important and useful contribution for the understanding of the struggle against Batista." by Rutgers University's Luis Martínez-Fernández "
El Jigue 1-22-07
Usually an executioner is either anonymous (e.g. hooded) or has a background distant from his victims. For this reason foreigners are often given this function. And it is anomalous for a chosen executioner not to have a previous "kill" before assuming that "job." When one reads of the preparations to sail in the Granma to Cuba, apparently there were a few executions or attempts to execute in which Guevara played a major role. In addition, Guevara's record in Guatemala has gaps which might suggest such. Will provide citations later. El Jigue 1-26-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 15:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC).
Fuentes, Norberto 2004 La Autobiografía de Fidel Castro. Destino Ediciones. Barcelona, Editora Planeta Mexicana, Mexico D.F. ISBN 8423336042. ISBN 9707490012 pp. 695-696 Lists four "traitors" secretly executed before the Granma left Mexico these were Jesus Bello Melgarejo, Arturo Avalos Marcos, Cirilio Guerra plus a fourth unnamed individual. One was said executed by Raul Castro. This leaves three who could have been executed by the Che. Now I do not completely trust Fuentes as a source, not because he does not know, but because he follows "line" that is suspiciously closer to the present Cuban government official dogma than I would like. BTW on page 692 Joaquin Ordoqui, is quoted as saying the Antonio Blanco Rico, Batista's chief of Military Intelligence (who was assassinated in Havana before Castro landed in 1956) was a member of the Cuban Communist Party. This can be taken to suggest that the Cuban communist party as usual was playing both sides of the fence. On page 696 this author states that Guevara was in Mexico for two years and three months which is sufficient time for quite a lot of things. El Jigue 1-27-07
There is a new reference (unfortunately for some in Spanish):
Arzuaga, Javier 2006 (accessed 1-29-07) Complete Radio interview on executions in la Cabaña in 1959 and related topics interviewed by Guillermo Toledo and others on El Programa Radial Magazine Cubano on 12-17-06. Transcript from ContactCuba. Com [8]
This reference has a number of odd spellings (e.g. Autilio instead of Eutimio) however, it contains novel information such as the execution of the killers in the Humbolt 7 murders, an event we know now to have been triggered by a communist party informant ("Marquito" I think). While the death of Ariel Lima a 16 year old, and anti-Batista resistance activist, who had turned informer to avoid the rape of his mother, was immediate. This together with such known Guevara acts as keeping BRAC files secret, strongly suggests that the Che was interested in "whitewashing" communist party's colaboration with Batista by informing on other resistance leaders. In addition the previously cited attribution of communist party affiliation (by Fuentes) of Colonel Blanco Rico the head of Batista Military Intelligence (SIM), also detracts from the credibility of details in Guevara's accounts of the war against Batista, and can be taken to suggest the possibility of bias beyond that of an expected military leader's self-serving statements. Another interesting statement found in this reference is the suggestion that partisans of Raul Castro are at present trying (as mentioned before) to burden Guevara with Raul's own actions. There is reference to Arzuaga's new book "Cuba 1959: La Galera de la muerte" which I have not yet read. El Jigue 1-29-0617:54, 29 January 2007 (UTC) (most odd all I did was put in tildes)
A new investigation suggests that the remains, said be those of the Che, buried in Cuba are not authentic
[9]. El Jigue2-3-07
Guevara is executed and his topless body goes on display. The article then states that "photographs taken at that time gave rise to legends such as those of San Ernesto de La Higuera and El Cristo de Vallegrande", and there is a link to this page, which is in foreign. This sentence has been widely copied and translated across the internet, but what does it mean? What are the legends of San Ernesto de La Higuera and El Cristo de Vallegrande? - Ashley Pomeroy 00:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Che has a family name of Lynch which can be traced back to his grahdmother on his father's side . His grandmother has roots in Co.Galway which is on the west coast of Ireland . His father was quoted one time saying his son has the rebel blood of an Irishman running through his veins . Che had a night out in Limerick on his way from Prague back to Cuba and it was reported he and his men arrived back at shannon airport with bunches of shamrock on there chest (it was close to St.Patricks Day) after having a few pint's of the black stuff . Buts lets not forget the Irish saying "NEVER LET THE TRUYH GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD STORY" . His name of Guavaero has its roots in the basque region of Spain which is another region famous for its rebel fighters . If you ask me its no wonder he became the revolutionary icon he is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.134.187.17 ( talk) 21:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC).
Ernesto Guevara de la Serna | |
---|---|
![]()
Alberto Korda's famous photograph. | |
Born |
June 14,
1928 |
Died |
October 9,
1967 |
Other names | Che |
Organization | 26th of July Movement |
I was wonder why is there no Template:Infobox revolution biography with image on this article, like on Martin Luther King, Jr.. It would look like this:
Furthermore can one use the Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg (the famous Che Guevara photo) on this article under fair use? - C mon 17:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
An excerpt from WP:IC:
'A number of Wikipedia articles have inline citations, and in the case of Featured Articles (formally "Brilliant Prose" articles), Featured Articles Candidates, Good Articles, Good Article Candidates, and (when applicable) A-Class Articles, inline citations are considered mandatory.'
This is a Featured Article and the information re sourcing provided by the statement included in the text of the article "an interview released by one of his household staff in a History Channel documentary about his life" does not meet the minimal standards set forth in Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Manual of Style; I have therefore removed the material in question. Please view comparison here: [10] .
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
![]() | This is Archive 11 covering approximately 28 December 2006 - 16 February 2007 |
Is it just me or are the repeated attempts to insert information about an American retail store removing Guevara's image from some product or other of marginal relevance to this article? I understand that many editors are from the United States, but - as I have written often on these pages - these additions give the rest of us the impression that we are sleeping with the elephant. Meaning that minor twitches in one corner of the world are magnified well out of proportion. As this "factoid" is of little interest to me, or I imagine the vast majority of people in the world who also know or care very little about American retail habits, perhaps these references are better suited to the Che Guevara in popular culture page.-- Zleitzen 12:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that it's probably true that Che's current popularity is mostly a symptom of the cited adolescent revolutionary romanticism. What I'm curious about is how that interacts with the recent Target controversy that I added to the article. I think this controversy is fairly notable and contributes to the analysis of current perception of Che, and it doesn't really fit in with the Che in pop culture article, so I put it in here. If you hate it, revert it, but I think it's important. My only concern is that it's right next to a sentence that says the image has lost its political connotation, which I think this disproves...seems to contradict itself. Anyone wanna help me fix this up? Also, I (poorly) edited some surrounding text to diminish the contradiction. Mikeliveshere 12:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
It would seem to me that Guevara's tactics were faulty and failed (thank G-d) for a number of reasons that include: (1) once it was clear that if the military of each country surrendered as in Cuba they would be executed, thus these militaries fought to the death; (2) Guevara despised and ignored the need for supporting militia (e.g. Escopeteros; (3) the preparation of his guerrillas in Cuba was often faulty (e.g. indigenous languages chosen were often incorrect for the area of action); (4) the personnel chosen were often ("White") or at least not indigenous to the area of action; (5) weapons and tactics of his opponents changed and improved, especially due to the Vietnam experience and above all his ideology of hate, his insistence on rigid ideological "purity" and a propensity to attempt to solve all problems through executions was alien to Latin American traditions. Documentation of this will follow in the next few days. El Jigue 12-28-06
Z: One of the best references on the bloody failure of the Guevaran approach to guerrilla warfare in Guatemala is: Le Bot, Yvon 1997 La guerra en tierras mayas (War in Mayan Lands). Fondo de Cultura Económica, Mexico D.F ISBN-10 9681645375, ISBN-13 978-9681645373
or if you prefer it in French: Lebot, Yvon 1992 La guerre en terre maya: Communauté, violence et modernité au Guatemala, 1970-1992 Editions Karthala. Paris ISBN-10 286537369X, ISBN-13 978-2865373697
Although this book gives too much credence to Rigoberta Menchú at the time it was written Menchú's little changes to history were not well known.
El Jigue 1-2-07
Hmmm perhaps you might address and give examples of the specific errors your professors see in that book. El Jigue 1-7-067
I posted a few sentences that mentioned Guevara's actions at La Cabana prison and the fact that he created Cuba's prison camps. I also cited an external source. This seems much better than the current statement that he was appointed to various posts in the Cuban government. The current version makes it seem like he was just some innocent bureaucrat.
I don't see why someone deleted my changes, unless you are determined to preserve the hero-worship flavor of the current article.
~Mike W.
Hello Mike,
This is a rather common occurence with regards to this article. I've noticed other past edits backed up by excellent sources, reverted very quickly, with condemnations coming against those who expanded the information here. Unfortunately, it seems as though most information that casts any sort of light deemed "negative" is wiped out.
Goatboy95 21:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Define anti-Cuba (note the upper case in Cuban) and since when was being anti-communist a crime or proof of bias (note lower case communist) El Jigue 1-18-07
One ponders if it is merely POV to consider anti-Cuba as equivalent to ant-Castro. El Jigue 1-21-07
"first he did not conducted any trial or execution himself nor were civilians ever executed there"
Hmmm, a fewllow named "Ruben," with whom I grew up would tend to disagree with that statement as he was a civilian executed at La Cabana. Actually, I remember the day his mother, wife and I went to see him for the last time. We heard the shots that killed him as we left the fort. Not quite sure where you found that information but, figured, in honor of those killed there, that this fact should be known. That's not to say that I don't understand where you're coming from - we've had 40-plus years of propaganda coming out of the island so, your misconseption is certainly explainable. Don't mean to burst your bubble.
Regards,
Goatboy95 00:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
There are six paragraphs about Guevara "disappearing". This may have made sense in 1965 as it was a secret then, well, it wasn't really, as said later on - "Despite the fact that Guevara sought to conceal his presence in the Congo, the U.S. government was fully aware of his location and activities: The National Security Agency (NSA) was intercepting all of his incoming and outgoing transmissions via equipment aboard the USNS Valdez, a floating listening post which continuously cruised the Indian Ocean off Dar-es-Salaam for that purpose." The US knew exactly where Guevara was, but that certainly didn't stop Voice of America etc. from spreading rumors that Guevara was jailed by Castro, there was a split in the Cuban leadership etc. Six paragraphs of uncited rumor from decades ago, which has been shown to be baseless conjecture doesn't warrant being in here. Even if it wasn't cited. "Castro's critics sometimes say his explanations for Guevara's disappearance have always been suspect (see below), and many found it surprising that Guevara never announced his intentions publicly, but only through an undated and uncharacteristically obsequious letter to Castro." Guevara announced his intentions not to remain in Cuba before he even landed in Cuba, this sort of thing is quite silly. Ruy Lopez 07:10, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
"Che" is not spelled chê or ché in Portuguese, but as tchê, and only like that. I know it because I'm from southern Brazil and use the expression frequently. The old text and the new one are down here.
"It was during this period that he acquired his famous nickname, "Che", due to his frequent use of the Argentine interjection ''Che'' ( pronounced /tʃe/), which is used in much the same way as "hey", "pal", "eh", or "mate" are employed colloquially in various English-speaking countries. Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, and southern Brazil (where the interjection is rendered 'chê' or 'ché' in written Portuguese) are the only areas where this expression is used, making it a trademark of the Rioplatense region".
"It was during this period that he acquired his famous nickname, "Che", due to his frequent use of the Argentine interjection ''Che'' ( pronounced /tʃe/), which is used in much the same way as "hey", "pal", "eh", or "mate" are employed colloquially in various English-speaking countries. Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, and southern Brazil (where the interjection is rendered 'tchê' in written Portuguese) are the only areas where this expression is used, making it a trademark of the Rioplatense region".
M Bhvilar 12:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
How reliable is Vilasuso's story about La Cabaña?, aparently he was a lawyer working there, but other than that, this is the only observation made in that particular section, no figures, no npov information, just the opinnion of one man, NPOV?:
(regarding La Cabaña) "According to José Vilasuso, an attorney who worked under Guevara at La Cabaña preparing indictments, these were lawless proceedings where "the facts were judged without any consideration to general juridical principles" and the findings were pre-determined by Guevara"
But why is the opinnion of one man that important to be placed here?, one quick look at the source will lead us that is from an anti-communist site [1], specialising in nothing but reader digest-like stories about cuban repression. Even though Vilasuso's own story has even been discredited by Gustavo Carmona, who was one of the prisoners in La Cabaña [2].
"How reliable is Vilasuso's story about La Cabaña?" That's like asking "How reliable is your source saying the Earth orbits the sun? LOL
Goatboy95 16:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
One has only to read "La Ley de la Sierra" to understand that these "trials" were carried out with systemic bias in favor of the prosecution [3] [4] [5]. "De acuerdo a la ley de la Sierra, se juzgaban hechos sin consideración de principios jurídicos generales. El derecho de Habeas Corpus había sido suprimido.
Las declaraciones del oficial investigador constituían pruebas irrefutables. El abogado defensor limitaba su acción a admitir las acusaciones aunque invocando la generosidad del gobierno, solicitaba una disminución de la condena. Por aquellos días Guevara era visible con su boina negra, tabaco ladeado, rostro cantinflesco, y brazo en cabestrillo. Estaba sumamente delgado y en el hablar pausado y frío, dejaba entrever su "posse" de eminencia gris y total sujección a la teoría marxista. En su despacho, se reunían numerosas personas discutiendo acaloradamente sobre la marcha del proceso revolucionario. Sin embargo, su conversación solía cargarse de ironía, nunca mostró alteración de temperamento y tampoco atendía criterios dispares. A más de un colega lo amonestó en privado, en público a todos: su consigna era de dominio público. "No demoren las causas, esto es una revolución, no usen métodos legales burgueses, las pruebas son secundarias. Hay que proceder por convicción. Es una pandilla de crimnales, asesinos. Además, recuerden que hay un tribunal de Apelación." El tribunal nunca declaró con lugar un recurso, confirmaba las sentencias de oficio y lo presidía el comandante Ernesto Guevera Serna." [6] El Although personal memories are not allowed here I can testify it was that way Jigue 1-16-07
"According to the law of the Mountain range, facts without consideration of general legal principles were judged. The right of Habeas Corpus had been suppressed. The declarations of the investigating officer constituted irrefutables tests. The defense counsel limited his action to admit the accusations although invoking the generosity of the government, he asked for a diminution of the sentence. By those days Guevara he was visible with his black beret, tipped tobacco, cantinflesco face, and arm in cabestrillo. He was extremely thin and in slow and cold speaking, posse "of gray eminence let glimpse his" and total attachment to the Marxist theory. In their office, numerous people met heatedly discussing on the march of the revolutionary process. Nevertheless, its conversation used to load itself of irony, it never showed alteration of temperament and it did not take care of criteria either different. To more of a colleague she admonished it in private, in public to all: its slogan era of public dominion. "they do not delay the causes, this is a revolution, do not use bourgeois legal methods, the tests are secondary. It is necessary to come by conviction. She is a gang of crimnales, assassins. In addition, they remember that there is a court of Appeal." The court never declared with place a resource, confirmed the office sentences and commander Ernesto Guevera Serna presided over." [ 7 ] the personal Although memories plows not allowed here I dog testify it was that way".
Aureliano: Were it worthwhile I might translated it but it seems that were I to do that it would be immediately erased. As it stands now in Wikipedia another language can be used if no other reference in"English could satisfactorily replace it El Jigue 1-21-07
Editors keep adding the category "humanitarian" to this article. I've removed it once, perhaps other users could better explain why this isn't really appropriate. Indeed Guevara went to work in a leper colony in his younger days, but by the early 60s he had been responsible for making various calls which accelerated near nuclear war, insulted and abused many of his subordinates, personally shot people in the head etc. He was been described as arrogant, brutal and overly aggressive even by his closest confidants. We're not talking about Mother Theresa here. -- Zleitzen 17:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
On January 16, 2007 anon user 200.28.199.74 removed the section Why is this guy so beloved? on this talk page. Though his methods may have been good-intentioned (and possible correct), should an anon-user have the right to remove other editors postings? GoodDay 00:14, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Aureliano: would it be malicious to say that that was their faith and profession.
el Jigue 1-21-06
Has this section been replaced yet? El Jigue 1-22-07
Aureliano but with that stuff be re-inserted. El Jigue 1-26-07
There is an academic reference at [7] which supports at least in part what I stated previously about the Che's purges in the Sierra. El Jigue 1-21-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 01:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
Z: The trouble with theSweig book is unbalanced source material. This deficiency is discribed in: Inside the Cuban Revolution: Fidel Castro and the Urban Underground.(Book Review) The Historian - June 22, 2004 Luis Martinez-Fernandez
Inside the Cuban Revolution: Fidel Castro and the Urban Underground. By Julia E. Sweig. (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 2002. Pp. xv, 254. $29.95.)
This review starts “Few, if any, t.....”
but the critical part of this review is:
"The bulk of the documentary evidence sustaining the book consists of hundreds of documents housed at the Cuban Council of State’s Office of Historic Affairs, which the Cuban government made available to Sweig while keeping the archive’s doors closed to other researchers. This valuable and fascinating collection of documents allowed the author to paint a well-documented and nuanced perspective on llano- sierra relations as well as on how the leaders of the 26th of July Movement related to other anti-Batista figures. These sources are complimented by much of the extant historiography on the insurrection and around twenty interviews that Sweig conducted in Cuba. Although the able use of the Council of State’s documents stands as one of the book’s most salient contributions, the admittedly sanitized nature of the document collection and the author’s failure to interview voices beyond those loyal to the Castro regime produces a somewhat distorted picture of the events and a more favorable portrayal of Castro. The correspondence between Castro and former president Carlos Prío Socarrás, for example, which was withheld from the author, would have most likely exposed the politiquero (politically opportunistic) side of Castro. Contrary to Sweig’s conclusion that Castro was opposed to politiquería, while scolding Hart and others for overtures to Cuba’s politicians, three years earlier he had maneuvered to secure for himself Havana’s mayoralty in exchange for supporting Justo Carrillo, leader of the Agrupación Montecristi, who at the time appeared most likely to emerge as the post-Batista leading figure. Likewise, had Sweig interviewed and/or used sources written by key protagonists who are not Castro supporters such as Colonel Ramón Barquín, Eloy Gutiérrez Menoyo, Carlos Franqui, Huber Matos, and Gustavo Arcos, to name only five, she would have produced a more accurate and balanced view of the Cuban insurrection. Unfortunately, such manifestations of Miami-phobia plague much of the scholarship on Cuba. Despite these problems in terms of the selection of sources, Sweig’s book is an important and useful contribution for the understanding of the struggle against Batista." by Rutgers University's Luis Martínez-Fernández "
El Jigue 1-22-07
Usually an executioner is either anonymous (e.g. hooded) or has a background distant from his victims. For this reason foreigners are often given this function. And it is anomalous for a chosen executioner not to have a previous "kill" before assuming that "job." When one reads of the preparations to sail in the Granma to Cuba, apparently there were a few executions or attempts to execute in which Guevara played a major role. In addition, Guevara's record in Guatemala has gaps which might suggest such. Will provide citations later. El Jigue 1-26-07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 15:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC).
Fuentes, Norberto 2004 La Autobiografía de Fidel Castro. Destino Ediciones. Barcelona, Editora Planeta Mexicana, Mexico D.F. ISBN 8423336042. ISBN 9707490012 pp. 695-696 Lists four "traitors" secretly executed before the Granma left Mexico these were Jesus Bello Melgarejo, Arturo Avalos Marcos, Cirilio Guerra plus a fourth unnamed individual. One was said executed by Raul Castro. This leaves three who could have been executed by the Che. Now I do not completely trust Fuentes as a source, not because he does not know, but because he follows "line" that is suspiciously closer to the present Cuban government official dogma than I would like. BTW on page 692 Joaquin Ordoqui, is quoted as saying the Antonio Blanco Rico, Batista's chief of Military Intelligence (who was assassinated in Havana before Castro landed in 1956) was a member of the Cuban Communist Party. This can be taken to suggest that the Cuban communist party as usual was playing both sides of the fence. On page 696 this author states that Guevara was in Mexico for two years and three months which is sufficient time for quite a lot of things. El Jigue 1-27-07
There is a new reference (unfortunately for some in Spanish):
Arzuaga, Javier 2006 (accessed 1-29-07) Complete Radio interview on executions in la Cabaña in 1959 and related topics interviewed by Guillermo Toledo and others on El Programa Radial Magazine Cubano on 12-17-06. Transcript from ContactCuba. Com [8]
This reference has a number of odd spellings (e.g. Autilio instead of Eutimio) however, it contains novel information such as the execution of the killers in the Humbolt 7 murders, an event we know now to have been triggered by a communist party informant ("Marquito" I think). While the death of Ariel Lima a 16 year old, and anti-Batista resistance activist, who had turned informer to avoid the rape of his mother, was immediate. This together with such known Guevara acts as keeping BRAC files secret, strongly suggests that the Che was interested in "whitewashing" communist party's colaboration with Batista by informing on other resistance leaders. In addition the previously cited attribution of communist party affiliation (by Fuentes) of Colonel Blanco Rico the head of Batista Military Intelligence (SIM), also detracts from the credibility of details in Guevara's accounts of the war against Batista, and can be taken to suggest the possibility of bias beyond that of an expected military leader's self-serving statements. Another interesting statement found in this reference is the suggestion that partisans of Raul Castro are at present trying (as mentioned before) to burden Guevara with Raul's own actions. There is reference to Arzuaga's new book "Cuba 1959: La Galera de la muerte" which I have not yet read. El Jigue 1-29-0617:54, 29 January 2007 (UTC) (most odd all I did was put in tildes)
A new investigation suggests that the remains, said be those of the Che, buried in Cuba are not authentic
[9]. El Jigue2-3-07
Guevara is executed and his topless body goes on display. The article then states that "photographs taken at that time gave rise to legends such as those of San Ernesto de La Higuera and El Cristo de Vallegrande", and there is a link to this page, which is in foreign. This sentence has been widely copied and translated across the internet, but what does it mean? What are the legends of San Ernesto de La Higuera and El Cristo de Vallegrande? - Ashley Pomeroy 00:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Che has a family name of Lynch which can be traced back to his grahdmother on his father's side . His grandmother has roots in Co.Galway which is on the west coast of Ireland . His father was quoted one time saying his son has the rebel blood of an Irishman running through his veins . Che had a night out in Limerick on his way from Prague back to Cuba and it was reported he and his men arrived back at shannon airport with bunches of shamrock on there chest (it was close to St.Patricks Day) after having a few pint's of the black stuff . Buts lets not forget the Irish saying "NEVER LET THE TRUYH GET IN THE WAY OF A GOOD STORY" . His name of Guavaero has its roots in the basque region of Spain which is another region famous for its rebel fighters . If you ask me its no wonder he became the revolutionary icon he is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.134.187.17 ( talk) 21:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC).
Ernesto Guevara de la Serna | |
---|---|
![]()
Alberto Korda's famous photograph. | |
Born |
June 14,
1928 |
Died |
October 9,
1967 |
Other names | Che |
Organization | 26th of July Movement |
I was wonder why is there no Template:Infobox revolution biography with image on this article, like on Martin Luther King, Jr.. It would look like this:
Furthermore can one use the Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg (the famous Che Guevara photo) on this article under fair use? - C mon 17:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
An excerpt from WP:IC:
'A number of Wikipedia articles have inline citations, and in the case of Featured Articles (formally "Brilliant Prose" articles), Featured Articles Candidates, Good Articles, Good Article Candidates, and (when applicable) A-Class Articles, inline citations are considered mandatory.'
This is a Featured Article and the information re sourcing provided by the statement included in the text of the article "an interview released by one of his household staff in a History Channel documentary about his life" does not meet the minimal standards set forth in Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Manual of Style; I have therefore removed the material in question. Please view comparison here: [10] .