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This edit reverted the removal of unsourced, duplicate, and in-universe content which violates a number of our policies. The reason provided is that an AfD discussion concluded we keep this set of articles, and that the removals should have been further discussed first. On the contrary, the AfD discussion concluded that these articles are in serious need of cleanup, and that many parts of them would need to be removed... but that the article titles should be kept, and better content added. Secondly, no change, however big or small needs discussion first. See WP:BRD and WP:BOLD. I'm happy to discuss this if anyone has any actual objection to the content, but please do not revert and simply "ask for discussion", as that gives us nothing to actually discuss.
I'm going to (arbitrarily) use this page as a central point for discussing this issue (since it's the same across all the articles). — Jess· Δ ♥ 15:15, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted User Mann jess ( talk · contribs)'s arbitrary changes with the summary that "...User Mann jess has ignored 2 Keep decisions: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/non-notable bible-division articles & related Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Noach (parsha). Full discussions require fullest versions." This should be obvious if we are to have a full and balanced discussion that will impact all 54 parsha articles. It's too vast a subject to be chopped up by one man (Mann jess) there needs to be wider WP:CONSENSUS and input from expert Judaic editors familiar with this subject as it's part of Judaism's weekly Torah portion system of Torah readings according to the division of 54 parshas. Let us recognize the issue here, that it's the opposite of the problem one encounters with a WP:STUB, and accordingly it requires care that lots of the good material not be lost or can be held. Let's not kill " The Goose That Laid the Golden Eggs" (mostly by User Dauster ( talk · contribs) who has done an amazing job that has lasted around 6 YEARS!!!) in dubious haste or for unclear gain. Just what is to be gained by eviscerating this and the 53 other parsha articles? After all, WP:NOTPAPER does not limit the valid length of valid subjects and reams could be written on the parsha. Could you please explain Mann jess??? Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 06:40, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
I do not understand why the isue was raised again, after another dicussion about another weekly Torah portion was discussed a few weeks ago. -- Yoavd ( talk) 13:03, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
~sigh~ This is really draining. I'm just trying to bring these articles up to our normal standards. I really don't have the time or energy to be wading into a bunch of drama, heading to WQA, starting RfCs, etc... particularly when I'm one of the only editors actually making changes to these articles to fix these issues. Can we all please just calm down, and talk this issue over rationally? I've never displayed any animosity to anyone here; it'd be really nice if that favor was returned.
I see all my edits were reverted, again, across a series of these articles, thus restoring the Summary section, a huge swath of external links, and reverting other fixes. Some editors have said that the summary section is relevant, but I'm really not sure it is. We already have this material covered in their specific articles, and this summary takes up the majority of the page. What's worse, it's written entirely in-universe style; Noach (parsha) begins "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his age, who walked with God." We have similar wording in this article too. That's not encyclopedic content. We simply cannot be saying that "Noah walked with God" in wikipedia's voice. I'll also point out that discussion (and consensus) formed some time ago regarding many of the changes to Noach (not made by me), which have also been reverted with no further discussion. That seems a bit combative. Those editors supporting this content, have you read WP:INUNIVERSE? What about WP:EL and WP:ELNO regarding the 40 external links listed at the bottom of the article. Could you comment on how those guidelines/policies interact with our content. What areas of this article (that have been discussed) do you think need improvement, and what areas of improvement we've discussed do you think aren't necessary? Thanks.
Finally, where are all these editors suddenly coming from? I posted this section days ago, and received hardly any input until suddenly, this morning, there's a flurry of interest. Is this conversation being advertised somewhere new? — Jess· Δ ♥ 16:36, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
"Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his age, who walked with God", and
"When God began creation...God spoke and created in six days"in wikipedia's voice. Wikipedia is is not a religious work, and we don't write from the perspective that any religion is true. Please stop calling other editors bigots. That's entirely uncalled for, and this level of constant hostility is disturbing and unhelpful. — Jess· Δ ♥ 15:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
For the record: This discussion moved on to Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not/Archive 43#Is wikipedia a devotional compendium? and Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not/Archive 42#Overwhelming consensus to keep the parsha articles and work on improving them to conform with WP standards without further action at that time. IZAK ( talk) 03:49, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
The use of so many illustrations, however artistic, goes against Jewish laws against graven images, and so, is completely inappropriate for such entries. Please remove them. Moreover, they reflect Christian views, and so must be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.140.79.183 ( talk) 16:57, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
This seems to be the "main" talk page for the whole series of articles on the parashot, so I'll ask here. What is "Inner-Biblical Interpretation"? All the articles assume you know what that means already, which I don't. Wikipedia does not have an article on the subject, and googling it just brings up other places online that use this term as a category for interpretations, assuming you know what it means already. I'm not saying all the parsha articles should have this, but it'd be nice if we had an article explaining this style of interpretation, and then the section heading could link to that article in each of the parsha articles. Fieari ( talk) 17:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
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There is no justification for Genesis 23, which is also part of the Christian Bible, automatically linking to a rabbinical discussion of a parashah.
A majority of potential users of English Wikipedia are not practicing Jews. I will elaborate: a majority are not Jewish, and not all Jews are practicing Judaism and rabbinical studies, but all these people are potentially interested in the Bible for their own cultural and religious reasons. Therefore, when the topic is a particular Bible verse shared by Jews AND Christians and, frankly, the entire humanity, the Bible passage is of interest, not (just) the parasha & discussion in Judaism. Thank you for considering this.
The discussion can be concentrated on this page. Arminden ( talk) 11:16, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 17 February 2008. The result of the discussion was Keep. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
This edit reverted the removal of unsourced, duplicate, and in-universe content which violates a number of our policies. The reason provided is that an AfD discussion concluded we keep this set of articles, and that the removals should have been further discussed first. On the contrary, the AfD discussion concluded that these articles are in serious need of cleanup, and that many parts of them would need to be removed... but that the article titles should be kept, and better content added. Secondly, no change, however big or small needs discussion first. See WP:BRD and WP:BOLD. I'm happy to discuss this if anyone has any actual objection to the content, but please do not revert and simply "ask for discussion", as that gives us nothing to actually discuss.
I'm going to (arbitrarily) use this page as a central point for discussing this issue (since it's the same across all the articles). — Jess· Δ ♥ 15:15, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted User Mann jess ( talk · contribs)'s arbitrary changes with the summary that "...User Mann jess has ignored 2 Keep decisions: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/non-notable bible-division articles & related Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Noach (parsha). Full discussions require fullest versions." This should be obvious if we are to have a full and balanced discussion that will impact all 54 parsha articles. It's too vast a subject to be chopped up by one man (Mann jess) there needs to be wider WP:CONSENSUS and input from expert Judaic editors familiar with this subject as it's part of Judaism's weekly Torah portion system of Torah readings according to the division of 54 parshas. Let us recognize the issue here, that it's the opposite of the problem one encounters with a WP:STUB, and accordingly it requires care that lots of the good material not be lost or can be held. Let's not kill " The Goose That Laid the Golden Eggs" (mostly by User Dauster ( talk · contribs) who has done an amazing job that has lasted around 6 YEARS!!!) in dubious haste or for unclear gain. Just what is to be gained by eviscerating this and the 53 other parsha articles? After all, WP:NOTPAPER does not limit the valid length of valid subjects and reams could be written on the parsha. Could you please explain Mann jess??? Thank you, IZAK ( talk) 06:40, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
I do not understand why the isue was raised again, after another dicussion about another weekly Torah portion was discussed a few weeks ago. -- Yoavd ( talk) 13:03, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
~sigh~ This is really draining. I'm just trying to bring these articles up to our normal standards. I really don't have the time or energy to be wading into a bunch of drama, heading to WQA, starting RfCs, etc... particularly when I'm one of the only editors actually making changes to these articles to fix these issues. Can we all please just calm down, and talk this issue over rationally? I've never displayed any animosity to anyone here; it'd be really nice if that favor was returned.
I see all my edits were reverted, again, across a series of these articles, thus restoring the Summary section, a huge swath of external links, and reverting other fixes. Some editors have said that the summary section is relevant, but I'm really not sure it is. We already have this material covered in their specific articles, and this summary takes up the majority of the page. What's worse, it's written entirely in-universe style; Noach (parsha) begins "Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his age, who walked with God." We have similar wording in this article too. That's not encyclopedic content. We simply cannot be saying that "Noah walked with God" in wikipedia's voice. I'll also point out that discussion (and consensus) formed some time ago regarding many of the changes to Noach (not made by me), which have also been reverted with no further discussion. That seems a bit combative. Those editors supporting this content, have you read WP:INUNIVERSE? What about WP:EL and WP:ELNO regarding the 40 external links listed at the bottom of the article. Could you comment on how those guidelines/policies interact with our content. What areas of this article (that have been discussed) do you think need improvement, and what areas of improvement we've discussed do you think aren't necessary? Thanks.
Finally, where are all these editors suddenly coming from? I posted this section days ago, and received hardly any input until suddenly, this morning, there's a flurry of interest. Is this conversation being advertised somewhere new? — Jess· Δ ♥ 16:36, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
"Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his age, who walked with God", and
"When God began creation...God spoke and created in six days"in wikipedia's voice. Wikipedia is is not a religious work, and we don't write from the perspective that any religion is true. Please stop calling other editors bigots. That's entirely uncalled for, and this level of constant hostility is disturbing and unhelpful. — Jess· Δ ♥ 15:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
For the record: This discussion moved on to Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not/Archive 43#Is wikipedia a devotional compendium? and Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not/Archive 42#Overwhelming consensus to keep the parsha articles and work on improving them to conform with WP standards without further action at that time. IZAK ( talk) 03:49, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
The use of so many illustrations, however artistic, goes against Jewish laws against graven images, and so, is completely inappropriate for such entries. Please remove them. Moreover, they reflect Christian views, and so must be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.140.79.183 ( talk) 16:57, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
This seems to be the "main" talk page for the whole series of articles on the parashot, so I'll ask here. What is "Inner-Biblical Interpretation"? All the articles assume you know what that means already, which I don't. Wikipedia does not have an article on the subject, and googling it just brings up other places online that use this term as a category for interpretations, assuming you know what it means already. I'm not saying all the parsha articles should have this, but it'd be nice if we had an article explaining this style of interpretation, and then the section heading could link to that article in each of the parsha articles. Fieari ( talk) 17:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:03, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
There is no justification for Genesis 23, which is also part of the Christian Bible, automatically linking to a rabbinical discussion of a parashah.
A majority of potential users of English Wikipedia are not practicing Jews. I will elaborate: a majority are not Jewish, and not all Jews are practicing Judaism and rabbinical studies, but all these people are potentially interested in the Bible for their own cultural and religious reasons. Therefore, when the topic is a particular Bible verse shared by Jews AND Christians and, frankly, the entire humanity, the Bible passage is of interest, not (just) the parasha & discussion in Judaism. Thank you for considering this.
The discussion can be concentrated on this page. Arminden ( talk) 11:16, 22 September 2020 (UTC)