This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Please can someone add that this used to be called Karl Ferdinand University. Also please put in a redirect from there. SureFire 14:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
In response to Tulkolahten: How do you figure that a University that was founded for education in Latin (In the kingdom of Bohemia), later taught in German then also in Czech, was subsequently split into 2 halves (Czech & German), and finally ended up as a University in the modern Czech republic, is (to quote yourself on the edit page): "It was, is and will be czech university."? I must misunderstand what message you are trying to convey? The university has a historical German name, as well as Latin and Czech, has a long history of education in all 3 languages, and happens to be in a city in the modern Czech republic, why should this factual information not be included in an encyclopaedia article on the history of the university? I am not interested in editing war, nor in some misplaced form of nationalism. The University is in Prague, it was founded by Charles I (Later IV) of Bohemia in a region of Europe where at least 4 languages were spoken. Why the insistence that the university being a 'Czech' university, a country which has only officially existed since the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian Empire? It seems that this does dishonour to the long and prestigious history of the University!(-- Tempsperdue ( talk) 19:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC))
Qertis: This has nothing to do with countries, which in their current manifestations as nation sates are a relatively modern creations(see American Independance and French revolution). This 'country 'of which you speak, was in fact a kingdom in the 9th C (the Přemyslid dynasty was founded after their Avar rulers (Eurasian invaders of the crumbling Roman empire) were finally defeated by Charlemagne and Krum (1st Bulgarian empire)), ruled by a hereditary king in a feudal system, of which --for our purposes-- Charles I was most definitely the King, later to be elected the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire as Charles the IV. Charles I was the son of John I of Bohemia of the House of Luxembourg of Germanic nobility. He was the hereditary King of Bohemia and under his rule he acquired Moravia and Silesia (amongst others) to his kingdom. There was no nation state on feudal rule. Also, The term Bohemia seems to stem from the germanic 'Boio-heim' or 'home of the Boii a Celtic people and not from English, even the Romans gave the region the name Boiohaemum in deference to the local Germanic tribes. The 'region' which Charles I controlled contained, German speakers and Slavic speakers (most notably Czechs), who arrived in the 6 century or so as the Germanic speakers moved generally west and south-west (Athought many stayed in major towns such as Prague). The area was, however, also, re-settled to a degree by Germanic speakers after the Mongol invasion of Europe, in the 1240s? to repopulate the region at the behest of the court of Ottokar II (whose grandfather Ottokar I made the title 'king' hereditary, prior to which the rulers used the title 'duke'). Bohemia had close relations to the Carolingian empire ( later to become the Holy Roman Empire and then the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, of which Bohemia was an autonomous part by the early 11 cent). Thus, when Charles University in Prague was founded (1348) in Bohemia, a part of the Holy Roman Empire, there existed both Slavic(primarily Czech) and Germanic speakers in the region. Which is likely why the model utilising 'nations' was used. I wrote all this to highlight that I am not quite sure what you are trying to imply with your 'different name doesn't invariably mean different country' argument?! Charles University was founded by a King's degree in a Kingdom whose people were his subjects, the modern nation state , or country to be created much later. It was most likely in a feudal system that the vast majority of people identified with their city, or region and their city/region's rulers. The point is that this University is the oldest in the region, the oldest in the German speaking world, the oldest in the Holy Roman and the oldest in the Czech speaking world. We would do disservice to such a 'noble' institution as to tar it with the brush of nationalism. It has been the source of many a great thinker, writer, poet, philosopher and scientist. It has seen many of the great minds of the early 20C walk its hallowed halls. To bring the nationalism argument to the table belittles such an institution, when the history is clearly complex, in my opinion. Tempsperdue ( talk) 03:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Please can someone add that this used to be called Karl Ferdinand University. Also please put in a redirect from there. SureFire 14:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
In response to Tulkolahten: How do you figure that a University that was founded for education in Latin (In the kingdom of Bohemia), later taught in German then also in Czech, was subsequently split into 2 halves (Czech & German), and finally ended up as a University in the modern Czech republic, is (to quote yourself on the edit page): "It was, is and will be czech university."? I must misunderstand what message you are trying to convey? The university has a historical German name, as well as Latin and Czech, has a long history of education in all 3 languages, and happens to be in a city in the modern Czech republic, why should this factual information not be included in an encyclopaedia article on the history of the university? I am not interested in editing war, nor in some misplaced form of nationalism. The University is in Prague, it was founded by Charles I (Later IV) of Bohemia in a region of Europe where at least 4 languages were spoken. Why the insistence that the university being a 'Czech' university, a country which has only officially existed since the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian Empire? It seems that this does dishonour to the long and prestigious history of the University!(-- Tempsperdue ( talk) 19:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC))
Qertis: This has nothing to do with countries, which in their current manifestations as nation sates are a relatively modern creations(see American Independance and French revolution). This 'country 'of which you speak, was in fact a kingdom in the 9th C (the Přemyslid dynasty was founded after their Avar rulers (Eurasian invaders of the crumbling Roman empire) were finally defeated by Charlemagne and Krum (1st Bulgarian empire)), ruled by a hereditary king in a feudal system, of which --for our purposes-- Charles I was most definitely the King, later to be elected the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire as Charles the IV. Charles I was the son of John I of Bohemia of the House of Luxembourg of Germanic nobility. He was the hereditary King of Bohemia and under his rule he acquired Moravia and Silesia (amongst others) to his kingdom. There was no nation state on feudal rule. Also, The term Bohemia seems to stem from the germanic 'Boio-heim' or 'home of the Boii a Celtic people and not from English, even the Romans gave the region the name Boiohaemum in deference to the local Germanic tribes. The 'region' which Charles I controlled contained, German speakers and Slavic speakers (most notably Czechs), who arrived in the 6 century or so as the Germanic speakers moved generally west and south-west (Athought many stayed in major towns such as Prague). The area was, however, also, re-settled to a degree by Germanic speakers after the Mongol invasion of Europe, in the 1240s? to repopulate the region at the behest of the court of Ottokar II (whose grandfather Ottokar I made the title 'king' hereditary, prior to which the rulers used the title 'duke'). Bohemia had close relations to the Carolingian empire ( later to become the Holy Roman Empire and then the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, of which Bohemia was an autonomous part by the early 11 cent). Thus, when Charles University in Prague was founded (1348) in Bohemia, a part of the Holy Roman Empire, there existed both Slavic(primarily Czech) and Germanic speakers in the region. Which is likely why the model utilising 'nations' was used. I wrote all this to highlight that I am not quite sure what you are trying to imply with your 'different name doesn't invariably mean different country' argument?! Charles University was founded by a King's degree in a Kingdom whose people were his subjects, the modern nation state , or country to be created much later. It was most likely in a feudal system that the vast majority of people identified with their city, or region and their city/region's rulers. The point is that this University is the oldest in the region, the oldest in the German speaking world, the oldest in the Holy Roman and the oldest in the Czech speaking world. We would do disservice to such a 'noble' institution as to tar it with the brush of nationalism. It has been the source of many a great thinker, writer, poet, philosopher and scientist. It has seen many of the great minds of the early 20C walk its hallowed halls. To bring the nationalism argument to the table belittles such an institution, when the history is clearly complex, in my opinion. Tempsperdue ( talk) 03:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)