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I added a sentence on Rackoff's comments on the National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women. I think reasonable people can disagree on the matter, but I believe it's worthy of being mentioned in his biographical stub. It is sourced with a CBC article.
~ben —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.253.229 ( talk) 21:51, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I chopped it, per WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:BLP. We don't report trivial campus news events, even if they get echoed in the wires. This incident has no bearing on the subject's notability. I quote from BLP: "Wikipedia contains biographical material on people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability...." Ray Talk 16:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
I find that as a relative Wikipedia newbie it is often very hard to find the actual now-deleted content which is being debated on a discussion page. I understand vanishing it entirely if it is libelous or unsourced, but in this case no-one seems to disagree that these are the subject's own statements as accurately reported by CBC. While I will not try to re-add the content to the main article, as the subject is not important enough to me personally and I would like to have a Wikipedia editing history free of edit wars, here is the link to the article from which the deleted quote was drawn: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2000/12/07/massacre_email001207.html Jonathanwallace ( talk) 18:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
(resetting indents) The following is a copy of a post I just made at the BLP noticeboard illustrating why I think deletion of the material is a radically wrong result under every applicable standard, uncluding WP:NPF, WP:RS, WP:V, WP:BLP etc etc: Charles Rackoff's comments in question were sent in his campus email to faculty and staff of the university. They were covered on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation web site as already mentioned. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2000/12/07/massacre_email001207.html Also in The Globe and Mail (165 year old Canadian newspaper with circulation of 307,330 national edition) Colin Freeze, "Klan Furor Mars Massacre Vigil", December 7, 2000. Rackoff was quoted by one of the legislators in a session of the Ontario Legislative Assembly, http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/house-proceedings/house_detail.do;jsessionid=c72d607830d85bc305417ae040bfb3efc4adab5c5f0f.e3eQbNaNa3eRe3aOaNyNaN0Pay1ynknvrkLOlQzNp65In0?locale=en&Parl=37&Sess=2&Date=2001-12-06 His remarks also received extensive coverage and commentary in student newspapers at Canadian universities, http://www.library.ubc.ca/archives/pdfs/ubyssey/UBYSSEY_2001_01_23.pdf, http://mediumonline.ca/backissues/Archives/January8/default.html http://www.themanitoban.com/system/manit/issues/000/004/083/2Dec2009_final_screen_quality.pdf?1259651997 According to one of these accounts, the president of Rackoff's university issued a statement calling his words "repugnant" but defending his academic freedom (similar comments of university spokesperson quoted in CBC piece). Rackoff's statement was discussed in a law review article, "Civil Disobedience and Academic Freedom", by Leslie Green in the Osgood Hall Law Journal http://www.arts.yorku.ca/politics/ncanefe/docs/civil%20disobeidience%20and%20academic%20freedom%20by%20L_%20Green.pdf Ironically, Rackoff's email is quoted in the Wikipedia article on the Montreal Massacre, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre (must we now delete that too?) To sum up, Rackoff used his position as a professor to express an opinion in a widely disseminated email sent from his university account, defended his views in an interview with the Canadian Broadcast Corporation, and was criticized by his own employer. But its not a PUBLIC matter and should not appear in his neatly groomed Wikipedia biography. A radically wrong result, people. Yours in distress Jonathanwallace ( talk) 02:04, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
JonathanWallace,
The following is a copy of the post I just put on the BLP noticeboard, defending the deletion of the article: If the proposal of removal of the CBC article were an attempt to white-wash the blemished career of an academic, then I agree fully that the suppression of these articles and this discussion would be wrong. It is now clear to me that the main reason this article (and event) deserves suppression from Rackoff's biography is that none of these sources, despite their appearance in prominent Canadian news outlets, are a balanced account, nor do they even contain enough facts to draw any conclusions.
Here are the only facts I can see. We have a quote from Rackoff in an email, the fact that this quote was distributed to the U of T campus, and that Rackoff did not retreat from his position in an interview.
All context of this email is missing. Did Rackoff really write to entire campus? Or did he communicate this statement to an individual by email, and this was eventually copied to the rest of the campus? Did Rackoff really have nothing to communicate in the interview other than a refusal to retreat from his position? Or was what he had to say so reasonable and airtight that any quote could only provoke sympathy for the professor?
The poverty of facts admits almost any explanation (and I feel the current suggestions are attempts to find controversy at the expense of a decorated academic). To call such accounts journalism is what is truly repugnant. Perpetuating this sensationalism does a disservice not only to Rackoff, but to free speech and, ultimately, democracy.
If Rackoff, completely unprovoked, spammed the campus with an email saying little more than `Feminism is the Klan!', this certainly would be an abuse of his position as professor and the University would be unconstrained by freedom of speech concerns in seeking his removal. Instead, we have some condemnations but little else (which to me suggests there was much internal turmoil over this event, further suggesting there is much more to the story than we are hearing).
The ultimate absurdity to me is that Rackoff's quote is expressing real sympathy for the victims, and frustration at the idea that these people are being forgotten when we are use this event as a political platform. Sure, this is expressed in a bombastic way, but that sentiment should be evident, especially in the context of the memorial. Other readings - such as Leslie Green's - are facile at best, and deliberate misinterpretations at worst.
In closing, all accounts of this very brief snapshot of Rackoff's life are very sketchy and to entertain them in a biography as short as Rackoff's cannot be considered fair or balanced by any stretch. This remains only a topic of discussion due to wikipedia, not because of continued notability. Removal of them from the biography is the right action and one that has now been taken. I hope we can consider this matter closed.
-- Emil post ( talk) 22:07, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
The "do no harm" principle does not justify the removal of relevant negative information about a living person. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and articles must be written from a neutral point of view. Thus, they must represent fairly and without bias all significant views and information (that have been published by reliable sources).
As Canadians marked the 1989 massacre of 14 female students at Montreal's Ecole Polytechnique yesterday, a senior academic at the University of Toronto launched an e-mail missive comparing such memorials to Ku Klux Klan propaganda. Charles Rackoff, a computer-sciences professor, responded to a message about one of the school's commemorative events by calling the White Ribbon Day ceremonies `an excuse to promote the Feminist/Extreme-left-wing agenda' ... Specifically, in response to an e-mailed announcement of a memorial service, Prof. Rackoff wrote: [the quote].
I propose to add a sentence at the end of the bio as follows:
Dr. Rackoff's comments [1] on the 2000 memorial for the victims of the Montreal Massacre were reported in Canadian media.
Alternately, we could add a "for" reference, eg, "For Dr. Rackoff's comments, etc. I believe either would satisfy all applicable standards, and all objections appropriately raised by anyone, under BLP, RS, and WEIGHT, and is in fact required by NPOV. I will wait a decent interval for comments and disagreement. I am also happy to reactivate this on the BLP:Noticeboard, and will do so before actually making the edit. Jonathanwallace ( talk) 17:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Put the ref at the end of the sentence. If this will make the problem go away, I'm okay with it. Putting in the full quote is still a WP:UNDUE violation, but you've made a decent case above (particularly in the academic articles) that this incident has made its way into history. Ray Talk 22:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
I think this may be a reasonable proposal. Let me think about it a little more.-- Emil post ( talk) 07:11, 21 December 2010 (UTC) Yes, this is reasonable; it is factually accurate and verifiable without skewing the article. -- Emil post ( talk) 19:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Emil. I will probably make it its own paragraph, but otherwise looks fine. Jonathanwallace ( talk) 23:51, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
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I added a sentence on Rackoff's comments on the National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women. I think reasonable people can disagree on the matter, but I believe it's worthy of being mentioned in his biographical stub. It is sourced with a CBC article.
~ben —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.253.229 ( talk) 21:51, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
I chopped it, per WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:BLP. We don't report trivial campus news events, even if they get echoed in the wires. This incident has no bearing on the subject's notability. I quote from BLP: "Wikipedia contains biographical material on people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability...." Ray Talk 16:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
I find that as a relative Wikipedia newbie it is often very hard to find the actual now-deleted content which is being debated on a discussion page. I understand vanishing it entirely if it is libelous or unsourced, but in this case no-one seems to disagree that these are the subject's own statements as accurately reported by CBC. While I will not try to re-add the content to the main article, as the subject is not important enough to me personally and I would like to have a Wikipedia editing history free of edit wars, here is the link to the article from which the deleted quote was drawn: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2000/12/07/massacre_email001207.html Jonathanwallace ( talk) 18:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
(resetting indents) The following is a copy of a post I just made at the BLP noticeboard illustrating why I think deletion of the material is a radically wrong result under every applicable standard, uncluding WP:NPF, WP:RS, WP:V, WP:BLP etc etc: Charles Rackoff's comments in question were sent in his campus email to faculty and staff of the university. They were covered on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation web site as already mentioned. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2000/12/07/massacre_email001207.html Also in The Globe and Mail (165 year old Canadian newspaper with circulation of 307,330 national edition) Colin Freeze, "Klan Furor Mars Massacre Vigil", December 7, 2000. Rackoff was quoted by one of the legislators in a session of the Ontario Legislative Assembly, http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/house-proceedings/house_detail.do;jsessionid=c72d607830d85bc305417ae040bfb3efc4adab5c5f0f.e3eQbNaNa3eRe3aOaNyNaN0Pay1ynknvrkLOlQzNp65In0?locale=en&Parl=37&Sess=2&Date=2001-12-06 His remarks also received extensive coverage and commentary in student newspapers at Canadian universities, http://www.library.ubc.ca/archives/pdfs/ubyssey/UBYSSEY_2001_01_23.pdf, http://mediumonline.ca/backissues/Archives/January8/default.html http://www.themanitoban.com/system/manit/issues/000/004/083/2Dec2009_final_screen_quality.pdf?1259651997 According to one of these accounts, the president of Rackoff's university issued a statement calling his words "repugnant" but defending his academic freedom (similar comments of university spokesperson quoted in CBC piece). Rackoff's statement was discussed in a law review article, "Civil Disobedience and Academic Freedom", by Leslie Green in the Osgood Hall Law Journal http://www.arts.yorku.ca/politics/ncanefe/docs/civil%20disobeidience%20and%20academic%20freedom%20by%20L_%20Green.pdf Ironically, Rackoff's email is quoted in the Wikipedia article on the Montreal Massacre, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre (must we now delete that too?) To sum up, Rackoff used his position as a professor to express an opinion in a widely disseminated email sent from his university account, defended his views in an interview with the Canadian Broadcast Corporation, and was criticized by his own employer. But its not a PUBLIC matter and should not appear in his neatly groomed Wikipedia biography. A radically wrong result, people. Yours in distress Jonathanwallace ( talk) 02:04, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
JonathanWallace,
The following is a copy of the post I just put on the BLP noticeboard, defending the deletion of the article: If the proposal of removal of the CBC article were an attempt to white-wash the blemished career of an academic, then I agree fully that the suppression of these articles and this discussion would be wrong. It is now clear to me that the main reason this article (and event) deserves suppression from Rackoff's biography is that none of these sources, despite their appearance in prominent Canadian news outlets, are a balanced account, nor do they even contain enough facts to draw any conclusions.
Here are the only facts I can see. We have a quote from Rackoff in an email, the fact that this quote was distributed to the U of T campus, and that Rackoff did not retreat from his position in an interview.
All context of this email is missing. Did Rackoff really write to entire campus? Or did he communicate this statement to an individual by email, and this was eventually copied to the rest of the campus? Did Rackoff really have nothing to communicate in the interview other than a refusal to retreat from his position? Or was what he had to say so reasonable and airtight that any quote could only provoke sympathy for the professor?
The poverty of facts admits almost any explanation (and I feel the current suggestions are attempts to find controversy at the expense of a decorated academic). To call such accounts journalism is what is truly repugnant. Perpetuating this sensationalism does a disservice not only to Rackoff, but to free speech and, ultimately, democracy.
If Rackoff, completely unprovoked, spammed the campus with an email saying little more than `Feminism is the Klan!', this certainly would be an abuse of his position as professor and the University would be unconstrained by freedom of speech concerns in seeking his removal. Instead, we have some condemnations but little else (which to me suggests there was much internal turmoil over this event, further suggesting there is much more to the story than we are hearing).
The ultimate absurdity to me is that Rackoff's quote is expressing real sympathy for the victims, and frustration at the idea that these people are being forgotten when we are use this event as a political platform. Sure, this is expressed in a bombastic way, but that sentiment should be evident, especially in the context of the memorial. Other readings - such as Leslie Green's - are facile at best, and deliberate misinterpretations at worst.
In closing, all accounts of this very brief snapshot of Rackoff's life are very sketchy and to entertain them in a biography as short as Rackoff's cannot be considered fair or balanced by any stretch. This remains only a topic of discussion due to wikipedia, not because of continued notability. Removal of them from the biography is the right action and one that has now been taken. I hope we can consider this matter closed.
-- Emil post ( talk) 22:07, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
The "do no harm" principle does not justify the removal of relevant negative information about a living person. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and articles must be written from a neutral point of view. Thus, they must represent fairly and without bias all significant views and information (that have been published by reliable sources).
As Canadians marked the 1989 massacre of 14 female students at Montreal's Ecole Polytechnique yesterday, a senior academic at the University of Toronto launched an e-mail missive comparing such memorials to Ku Klux Klan propaganda. Charles Rackoff, a computer-sciences professor, responded to a message about one of the school's commemorative events by calling the White Ribbon Day ceremonies `an excuse to promote the Feminist/Extreme-left-wing agenda' ... Specifically, in response to an e-mailed announcement of a memorial service, Prof. Rackoff wrote: [the quote].
I propose to add a sentence at the end of the bio as follows:
Dr. Rackoff's comments [1] on the 2000 memorial for the victims of the Montreal Massacre were reported in Canadian media.
Alternately, we could add a "for" reference, eg, "For Dr. Rackoff's comments, etc. I believe either would satisfy all applicable standards, and all objections appropriately raised by anyone, under BLP, RS, and WEIGHT, and is in fact required by NPOV. I will wait a decent interval for comments and disagreement. I am also happy to reactivate this on the BLP:Noticeboard, and will do so before actually making the edit. Jonathanwallace ( talk) 17:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Put the ref at the end of the sentence. If this will make the problem go away, I'm okay with it. Putting in the full quote is still a WP:UNDUE violation, but you've made a decent case above (particularly in the academic articles) that this incident has made its way into history. Ray Talk 22:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
I think this may be a reasonable proposal. Let me think about it a little more.-- Emil post ( talk) 07:11, 21 December 2010 (UTC) Yes, this is reasonable; it is factually accurate and verifiable without skewing the article. -- Emil post ( talk) 19:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Emil. I will probably make it its own paragraph, but otherwise looks fine. Jonathanwallace ( talk) 23:51, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
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