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Even though they're both in Boston, this is not the Charles Jacobs who runs the Boston Bruins.
Now that it's established that Jacobs is a public figure, the public figure rules apply. Negative information is appropriate. -- John Nagle 23:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Several of his own bio pieces mention that he has a doctorate from Harvard, but in what? -- John Nagle 23:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I've just corrected the information about his degree. He does not have a Ph.D.; it's a Ed.D., and he received it in 1988, not 1989 (as previously stated).--NYScholar 01:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
His main activity is as the head of the anti-Slavery group. It is in this capacity that he has appeared on all those shows, and has been published in all those news-sources, and for which he won the award. Please stop distorting his biography by inserting secondary activities in the lead, and forcing his main activities elsewhere. Also, please stop destroying references. Jayjg (talk) 23:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
[I relocated the comment below today--NYScholar 00:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)]
Actually, he's only a co-director of "The Sudan Campaign". See this letterhead. [2] That's run out of Fredricksburg, VA, by others, while Jacobs' main organizations are all Boston-based. -- John Nagle 06:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
SourceWatch is just a wiki. We don't link to blogs and wikis, particularly when they seem to contain defamatory material about Living Persons. Please see WP:BLP. Jayjg (talk) 23:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Nagle, I don't know what's going on here, but you can't use Wikipedia as your personal soapbox and that's what this looks like. My apologies if there's something else to it. You added as a "criticism" section a link to an article by a Columbia junior! That was it. No text, just the link. This isn't good editing by any standard. I hope this anti-Israel campaign stops soon because it's causing a lot of trouble and leading to some pretty bad articles, and that's particularly unacceptable when it comes to a living person. Please edit in accordance with BLP, which is policy. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
John, why do you keep claiming that it is "apparently the only" Boston Freedom Award? It's not clear to me why you would insert this POV, except to denigrate the award in some way. Furthermore, you still haven't found a source which states that is it actually "the only" one ever awarded; instead you are using original research to make that claim, based on your interpretation of a website of unknown provenace. The purpose of creating biographies of living persons is to describe notable people in a neutral way, not to find a means of denigrating marginally notable individuals. Jayjg (talk) 23:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
NYS, you're introducing stylistic errors e.g. changing PhD to Doctorate [sic], and it's odd to put his PhD before his teenage activities. There are a number of other, similar changes. Could you say how you feel these improve the text? SlimVirgin (talk) 04:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The passage has been quoted over and over again in the article; it says "Doctorate [sic]," and I was quoting it in full. Read the history. If you don't know what "being graduated" from a university means, you don't know proper English usage. Universities graduate students; they are "graduated from" or "graduated by" universities; "was graduated from" is the proper English usage. If you don't know that, that doesn't mean it is incorrect. It just means that you do not know that.
You've made it impossible for me to reply due to editing changes. I've changed the heading. This comment section should not be made about me; I'm removing the personal attacks: focus on the subject, not the person making the changes is Wikipedia policy. If I can get back to editing without the conflicts, I'll re-quote the passage in talk so you can see that I was quoting the passage in full. What you are objecting to "Doctorate [sic]" is in the source. The source has been plagiarized from and I provided the passage (see history).--NYScholar 05:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
==Education== + ==Early life and education== - "Jacobs graduated from Rutgers University and received his Doctorate [sic] from Harvard in 1989. As a teenager, Jacobs was active in the civil rights movement, and attended Dr. Martin Luther King's March on Washington, in 1963. In 1993, Jacobs learned about the continuing existence of traditional slavery in North Africa and, with a group of African human rights activists, formed the American Anti-Slavery Group, which monitors and combats modern-day human bondage around the globe." [The source is in the Notes: Powell. (I've added bold print for the quotation marks; those quotation marks were in one of my previous edits to which I was referring when talking about the word "Doctorate [sic]" above.].
So we don't repeat it unless we're quoting, and there is obviously no need to quote in this case. Ditto for all your other points. We read the sources, learn about the subject, then write about the subject, sticking closely to what the sources say in terms of meaning, but ensuring at the same time that the article is well written, which this one currently isn't, and without being slaves to the sources to the point of writing "Doctorate" just because the source does (unless it's in some way significant, but it isn't in this case). SlimVirgin (talk) 06:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I found the reference to "Boston 2000" in the Millennium citation; I missed it earlier due to tiredness from editing. Sorry. That's fine now. I did reorganize the order of sentences in the opening paragraph to read more logically (which I had done earlier but someone kept reverting to the illogical order). I don't, however, think it's necessary to list Jacobs' speaking engagements and publications history from his public relations bios that he and his reps provide to speakers' bureaus. Anyone can read that information themselves in the articles linked via the citations (though I've left that material in the article). Otherwise, I really don't see any problems with the current version of the article; it just may need expanding and continuing vigilance regarding maintaining NPOV.--NYScholar 06:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
This is the source passage for some of the information about where Jacobs' "work" has been published, after it cites one of his articles published in The New York Times:
"His work has been featured in publications including the Wall Street Journal, The New Yorker, and The Boston Globe. He has also appeared on ABC's World News Tonight, NPR's Talk of the Nation, and CBS This Morning." (See note 1)
Note the word "including": it was part of my justification earlier for using the phrase "such . . . as." The list of publications is a selective one (and possibly quite dated).--NYScholar 17:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Here are the Massachusetts corporarate records for Jacobs' organizations.
It looks like he does his organizations sequentially, phasing out of one when he starts another. That's consistent with the info from the New York Times archives. -- John Nagle 06:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
[added heading in talk by --NYScholar 17:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)]
I added a history section, with all the verified events we have so far in chronological order. This is starting to look like a bio. We could use a date for his graduation from Rutgers. -- John Nagle 16:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Now that have located and verified place of birth as Newark, New Jersey, added that information and renamed section called "History" and then "Chronology" to "Biography."-- NYScholar 19:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
[WARNING: See tag above; especially Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons.]--NYScholar 20:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC) [NOTE: This policy applies to talk pages for articles as well as for the articles.]--NYScholar 20:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Jacobs' David Project is behind a controversial movie about some Columbia University faculty being too pro-Palestinian, or anti-Israel. That's worth researching. Search for"Columbia Unbecoming". -- John Nagle 19:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The David Project and Jacobs are also involved in a complicated defamation lawsuit involving their efforts to stop the building of a big mosque in Boston. Searching for "Charles Jacobs" lawsuit will bring up many articles. There's a (deleted blog) with a helpful timeline.
Recent articles from various sides include: [deleted by --NYScholar 20:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC). [See explanation below and Wikipedia's policy on blogs, self-published websites, and so on.] . . . . Well, at least we're finding more press references. -- John Nagle 19:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
"Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should not be posted to articles or talk pages. If you find any, please remove it immediately. . . ." (Italics added.)
Until each one of those sources that JN linked above (which I deleted earlier following the above-quoted policy--and after consulting the notes linked in the tag) is properly evaluated and vetted and deemed reliable and verifiable and in keeping with Wikipedia policy for citations used in articles on living persons, they cannot stay in talk. By now I've sifted through citations, after rejecting any references to not-authoritative, non-verifiable blog entries and one-sided "news" accounts posted on partisan self-published websites (no matter what the biases), and found a couple of items that I've incorporated into the article on the David Project and the American Anti-Slavery Group, where they belong (not in this article on a living person). [One is from The Boston Globe (which I found on my own) and another is the official policy statement on a lawsuit against an organization posted on its own official website.] The bonafide and verifiable mass media articles pertain to the organization being sued perhaps more directly than they do to its founder (the person per se) [though that may be debatable]. I presented the information in the article on the organization. since then I noticed the website of the David Project's reference to the suit as a "lawsuit that has been initiated against it and against one of its employees today by the Islamic Society of Boston." Authoritative and well-sourced articles about the controversy still would be more appropriately placed (due to the "living person" tag) not in this biographical article about the living person or in this talk page. They seem more safely placed (if vetted and found proper sources) in discussion of the organization being sued (which is cross-linked with this article on Charles Jacobs). Everyone who has been posting on this page prior to the last comment is probably well aware of such controversies (if they know anything about the subject of this article Charles Jacobs); any Google search will turn them up. Wikipedia articles are not substitutes for listing unevaluated sources that one finds in Google searches (esp. blog entries and ideological self-published websites). (Many actually would question if the organizations founded and co-founded by Charles Jacobs themselves fall into that category, I would still point out!) If one wants to know more about the subject of this article and wants to do "original research" about it on one's own after reading the Wikipedia article, one can easily do so. But incorporating that "original research" into the article on Wikipedia without evaluating and vetting the sources before citing them in the article or the talk page for the article violates the tagged notice and Wikipedia:Citing sources policies. See defamation, which incorporates slander and libel definitions. --NYScholar 23:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC) [I corrected some things that I find to be misstatements in my above comment; but I didn't realize that I was making corrections to an older post; I'm leaving the changes for informational purposes; sorry if any confusion ensues re: timing of the posts, threading etc. I'm time-dating this one too, however.--NYScholar 00:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)]
"So: it is evident that John wants to cover this material and NYScholar does not." (JzG)
- Boston Globe article [JN's link resolves to a registration page, requiring registration before reading the article. I've added the proper link already to the DP article anyway.]
- David Project
The sources from the blog (timeline) and the ideological non-neutral "sides" expressed on other organizations' self-published and politically-ideological websites are not sources that Wikipedia allows articles to use. They are considered the opposite, the kinds of sources that Wikipedia itself defines as "poorly sourced." --NYScholar 00:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
BTW: I had come across that blog entry w/ the timeline a day or so before JN mentioned it here in talk, and I rejected the possibility of using it in a Wikipedia article (whether on the living person or the organization). I'll review it again later, but I won't re-post its link here. Anyone else can read it on his or her own (if doing original research) too. NB: According to that blog's entry about the May 2005 lawsuit, it is not Charles Jacobs who is directly named in that suit but rather, as The David Project's own statement says an "employee" of The David Project, identified by the blogger as "director of education (Anna Kolodner)." That is one more reason why it seems inappropriate to post those links about the suit in this article about Jacobs. I've added updates to the article on The David Project instead. --NYScholar 00:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
One can find the legal documents naming the parties involved in the suit at The David Project link with them. As its biases would lead one to expect, William Kristol's Weekly Standard neo-conservative blog [linked on his site] is not an acceptable source according to Wikipedia standards for citation. In this case, the claim that you say that you are citing from it is incorrect; it is not substantiated by the posted court documents (pdf files & verifiable official documents), which do not name Mr. Jacobs directly and the discussion of the court case is already included in the article on the David Project now anyway. Speaking for myself, I have no interest in either side of this controversy. As someone who has spent a considerable amount of time trying to edit this and related articles, trying to be vigilant with regard to highly-volatile recent contexts, I am interested in verifiable presentation of sources whose accuracy has been vetted and which avoids bias so as to maintain as NPOV as possible in the construction of the article. One does not want to mislead Wikipedia readers all over the world. The case pertains to the David Project article directly; not to this article directly. See the other article. These articles are clearly enough cross-linked and this discussion is really now moot. --NYScholar 06:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
"To a complaint filed in May against the Boston Herald and Fox 25 News, ISB added Anna Kolodner, the David Project’s director of education. It also named author and lecturer Steven Emerson of the Investigative Project, Steven Cohen and Dennis Hale of the group Citizens for Peace and Tolerance and William Sapers as defendants in the defamation lawsuit. . . ." --NYScholar 18:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Scroll back up to Talk:Charles Jacobs (political activist)#Public figure; other editors have already made most of the same points to JN, which he continually resists. Seems to be JN's problem, not theirs, or mine. All the Wikipedia policies that they and I (subsequently) have cited still pertain. --NYScholar 06:40, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
[editing conflicts]
"For sure we do [not] repeat allegations made in a single blog. Allegations repeated in a hundred blogs should be debated: 'a hundred blogs say Jacobs murdered his mother'; then we can investigate their sources andd show there are none and again reject it. What we can't do is assert as fact things for which we do not have (preferably multiple) high quality sources. [This is indeed what JN did when he posted and re-posted the links to Pipes's blog and the incorrect article in The Daily Standard!.] WP:BLP exists to prevent hatchet jobs and as an interdict against edit wars over potentially libellous [sic] content, it is not there to prevent debate on matters which have reasonable currency, in order to weigh up wheether [sic] they should be included or not." [See the bold print added, revealing the inconsistency of this argument.]
I've cleaned up the article again; I've had to remove various original research, unsourced smears, references which don't meet WP:BLP, etc. Please note that this is an encyclopedia article, and a biography; therefore, it is written as an article not in point form, and it states what it knows, not what it doesn't know. Also, any negative information must be impeccably sourced. Jayjg (talk) 21:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for both saying so. I'd like to repeat, this is a biography of a living person, so if we include anything negative, it must come only from very reliable sources. Jimbo is very, very concerned that we all follow WP:BLP. Jayjg (talk) 21:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I added an "s" to this section. After JN introduced some new controversial material in a non-neutral manner, working with the same sources that he cites in 2 notes, I have merged them, identified the quotations, and thus tried to restore the article to a more neutral presentation of facts, with adequately identified citations formatted consistently with previous citations in notes. I recommend that one avoid misleading use of the passive voice that fails to identify the agents of actions (like who is speaking in a quotation) and that one give contexts of quotations (not quote "out of context" in misleading ways). --NYScholar 22:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
And the source is entirely quoted accurately. Those are HIS words that the reporters are quoting in the articles. See the block quotations and the internal quotation marks in the sources. What exactly is your problem here? Whatever it is, you are not accurately stating it. See JN's version and how misleading that was. --NYScholar 03:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Grammar: transitive and intransitive verb forms: e.g., "to graduate" and "to be graduated" In terms of proper English grammar usage: Schools "graduate" students; students are "graduated from" schools.
"to graduate" is" "To be granted an academic degree or diploma": Usage:
"Either graduated or was graduated is possible in sentences such as She graduated (or was graduated) from college. Graduated is now more common. Although was graduated is considered an affectation by some [e.g., SV], it is an equally acceptable alternative in such examples, according to 77 percent of the Usage Panel. From is necessary in either case. She graduated college is termed unacceptable by 93 percent of the Panel."
—The American Heritage of the English Language. --NYScholar 10:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The continual changes of my phrase "was graduated from Rutgers University" are unnecessary. It is correct usage and there is no reason to change it. A majority of the Usage Panel of the dictionary considers it "an equally acceptable alternative." Please use a dictionary. Thanks.--NYScholar 10:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The article now claims "In 2004-2005, according to The Boston Globe, along with other members of his local community, Dr. Jacobs attempted (unsuccessfully) to prevent the public access cable TV station in Newton, Massachusetts from continuing to broadcast Mosaic: World News from the Middle East." However, none of the sources I can see actually says Jacobs tried to stop the program from airing; instead it just says he criticized the show. Can someone here provide some source which actually says he tried to stop it from airing? Jayjg (talk) 02:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I only see him commenting on the programs themselves, I don't see where the articles actually state he protested them. Can you quote the specific statements in the articles which show that he attempted to prevent them from being broadcast? Or was there an existing issue, and the paper merely went to him for an opinion on the subject? Jayjg (talk) 03:11, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The article claims he tried to stop them from appearing, but has no sources which back this claim. Criticizing a program is not trying to stop it from appearing, or even a "protest", and criticizing a program is not particularly noteworth. This is a biography of a living person; rather than inventively interpreting what articles say, we need to quote sources accurately. Jayjg (talk) 03:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I've cleaned it up again, removing all the original research and writing it in encyclopedic form. This was one set of statements about one television program; it shouldn't constitute half the article. Jayjg (talk) 03:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Bye. Total waste of my time.--NYScholar 03:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Came back after working on some other articles; offer the compromise editing version just posted in the article incorporating both povs of both Jayjg and JN, I think.--NYScholar 06:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Your total lack of appreciation for the work that other people are trying to do (this article did not exist last week) is extremely upsetting.
Speaking of "professional" etc.; as far as I know, I am the only "professional editor" who is actually working on this article. That is what I do as a profession in addition to teaching writing at the college/university level and writing books and articles. So I find your attitude extremely derogatory and insulting ("Nonsense"), especially, since you have not done the research (and I'm not talking about "original research" in Wikipedia's terms) but rather just plain reading of secondary sources attempting to evaluate them. (It is easy for you to criticize other people's hard work; it may not be perfect, but it is more than many have contributed, which is, in most cases, nothing.)
I cited the Wikipedia article on SourceWatch, which is a bonafide thing to do. The article has information that one needs to know if one runs into the Source Watch article about Jacobs (cited by someone else originally in this article). I did not list or cite the article per se; I wasn't quite sure what to do with it after someone else had cited it; some other editor added it in first constructing this article. I took it out eventually. But I left the Wikipedia internal link to its own article on SourceWatch in as a reference for those who want it there, because it qualifies use of that as a resource. There is nothing defamatory about the link. So please get your facts straight. Thanks.--NYScholar 09:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
"Neutral" point of view also involves not suppressing criticism of a subject; when other people brought information to my attention or added it, occasionally I left it in for a while. What you distort is that, after realizing the problems with some of that information, I removed it. As far as "Royer" goes, you are judging the source. I just thought it was a source that had some information of use. After you or someone else took it out, I did not put it back in. So please get your facts straight. Look at the history even more closely than you apparently have already been trying to do. And also remember, I thanked you for your revision, even though you took out a great deal of my work, whereas I don't recall your ever having thanked me for my work. You just thanked me for thanking you. I think that says something, doesn't it?--NYScholar 09:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
My link to the Wikipedia article on Sourcewatch is in another article cross-linked to this one, not this one.--NYScholar 09:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
[and]
[added]
NYS, the writing on this page is not good, but when people fix it, you revert them. Please allow others to edit the page. SlimVirgin (talk) 10:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I really don't think you are the sole arbiter of what constitutes "good writing," SV. Plus I always do sign my comments on the talk page. Don't keep bringing this up. They are signed. What is your problem w/ this?
You are constantly reverting my earlier changes, moving things around, leaving out punctuation, adding mistakes, changing references to mistaken references. See the talk pages of the other article on The David Project where I issued a 3RR to you. You've been reverting my work in more than one of these articles re: CJ.
Also, I've already explained more than once that "was graduated from" is correct English usage: scroll to that as well. {"Usage" above.) And please stop telling me that I don't write well. You originated this page, other people (not just I) tried to improve it when you clearly tried to make it an occasion for praising and trumpeting the subject. I'm trying to present him in neutral terms. Read the notes (if they are still there). Read this talk page. I'm tired of this.--NYScholar 11:19, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Some of the sources used in this article have typographical and other errors, and they need to be fact-checked with other sources for verifiability. One source being used as "current" information ("currently") is possibly at least two years (or more) old--2004 is the last press release linked in it: [note 6 actually--see the note "[N.B]": "Note bene" means "Note well."]*[see bullet below]
People are doing "original research" in writing this article and not always relying on multiple verified reliable sources. I do still see inconsistencies among the sources. Other people need to check every single one of them with additional sources before making chronological claims based on them. JN is still in here changing things; what happened to the Wikipedia:3RR re: him and the other editors making reverts within 24-hours. Some of us are just trying to copy-edit and correct minor punctuation errors in the text; not doing anything to the "substance" or contested matters of the substance of the main article. If one sees an actual typographical error, one should be able to correct it. These changes of mistakes are not really contested; people just don't see them. As editing is what I do, I do see some of these details more easily and frequently than other people who do not do this kind of work professionally sometimes do. Correcting errors of mechanics and fact are also forms of "improvement" of articles on Wikipedia as in other encyclopedias and books. --NYScholar 23:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
[I removed some of the charges of "vandalism" re: accidental way of posting the tag itself--just a formatting of the tag problem] Scroll up to previous section for explanation of a reason for the tag; scroll up to many other sections for the other problems of accuracy discussed by me and other editors.--NYScholar 02:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)]
NYScholar, you've added a strange tag to the page that inserted the entire contents of other articles here. If you think there are accuracy issues with the article, can you explain what they are? Wikipedia frowns on tagging articles without explaining explicitly why you think the tags are warranted. Jayjg (talk) 00:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry: I went to the right page and provided an explanation there and above here in this talk page I thought (maybe it didn't get saved?), but the tag didn't look the way I thought it was going to look. I just wanted the graphic tag, not the whole page. The tag that I used turned out to be working differently from how I thought it was working. I'm still trying to find the right (small) tag. The explanation is in the talk page I thought (but now I see what I wrote is not here!). I'll look for the right link to the right tag. I've run out of time for this, and I'm very tired at this point. So I don't know how soon I can find what is needed.--NYScholar 01:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The tag intended is at the top of the following page WP:AD. I'm still working on this. The explanations are at the bottom of that page. I thought I was providing a tag that linked to it (but it put the whole page on top of the CJ page (which would still be there, but at the very bottom; not what I intended at any rate; an indadvertent mistyping; not vandalism (contrary to SV's charges!). It's happened before when I was learning how to use tags like "cleanup"; one sees the notice at the top of the page in editing and doesn't realize that the entire help page is there too!) --NYScholar 01:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the mistake; I found the right tag code and added it. It's
This article's factual accuracy is
disputed. (March 2008) |
. The link at the tag goes to the page where explanations are provided about articles being disputed. Sorry it's come to this; but after a week and hours and hours of attempting to deal with the problems relating to this subject to to articles relating to him in good faith, I have brought this to the attention of other administrators.--NYScholar 01:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
It's already here: read previous sections: I have not got endless time to repeat these problems. I've already edited and corrected the problems, but I fear that, once again, SV will see fit to reverting and adding the inaccuracies back in. My editing summaries in my recent changes already make very clear what I was correcting; read the history. I can't do that for you. You have to do that yourself.--NYScholar 02:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Scroll above to my previous section "Errors in some sources being cited." How much clearer could that heading be?--NYScholar 02:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
In response to Jayjg's message to me in on my talk page (and to above question by JN): There were some things that needed fixing; I fixed them; it should be as accurate as we have information to support now; I left the linked dates as they were, but I fixed the remaining inconsistencies in the dates of the references themselves (mostly punctuation errors); made it more concise in verbs. I found the repeated use of "was" in the beginning troubling, because it made Jacobs sound dead: chose action verbs to replace the "was" constructions. Added parethetical "date of birth unknown" as a blank to put a date of birth once there is one known. I figure that he was probably born around 1945-1948, but I can find no information posted in article accessible online with a bonafide date of birth; no sources for a date of birth.
I found some material posted by JN on a talk page for "Charles Jacobs," where it is misplaced; I moved it to this page in his own earlier section asking "What does Charles Jacobs do"; it was posted on July 26, 2006, and did not appear on this page before. I am assuming that he meant to post it here and chose the wrong page by accident.--NYScholar 23:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is the direct link to the (other) Charles Jacobs talk page with comments questioning why it is there.--NYScholar 06:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I have now added this article to the requests for arbitration. I'll post the link to it in a minute. This is my notification of the parties involved (scroll up in this talk page) of the request for mediation.--NYScholar 23:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC) [typo corr--NYScholar 05:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)]
Here's the item: Request for arbitration Charles Jacobs (political activist). --NYScholar 00:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
(I think I made this request to the wrong page, and it needs to go to "mediation." I'll try to put it there and fix this order of activities. It will take me a while to re-do it[, if I do.])--NYScholar 00:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)--[updated]--NYScholar 05:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I thought I'd make such a request to mediation, but went to the wrong page (arbitration); I've tried to remove the posted request from arbitration page, but I ran into an "editing conflict"; I think it may be gone from there now though. I'll check again in a bit. I'm holding off for the meantime on making a mediation request first (the proper order). It's very time-consuming, and I hope that the parties involved here will be able to leave this article alone and desist in this dispute. Thanks. --NYScholar 00:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
An anon just added a line about Jacobs, trouble in Darfur, and Orientalism (book). I marked it as "citation needed". Jacobs did come out against that book in a different forum [10], but we don't have a cite to the specific statement added. Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with the removal of that statement. It's really a minor part of the "Columbia Unbecoming" issue, which is covered over at David Project. -- John Nagle 17:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
A source with related commentary by Jacobs (though not about Darfur etc.) quoted is quite easy to find via a Google search for "Charles Jacobs Edward Said Orientalism": See, e.g., an article posted on CAMERA. (The specific quotation added by the anon editor purportedly from a "speech" about "Darfur" given at "Brandeis University" still is not verified from a reliable source, however.) An editing summary in the editing history pertaining to the MOSAIC section (where the additional sentence was added by the anonymous editor without a parallel heading) refers to "defamation" pertaining to Wikipedia policy re: Blp. See the W article on CAMERA: (actually) Note 12, where I added some of the related material. In that note (12), I elided the allusions to living persons which appear in the linked CAMERA article. Technically, now there is no "defamation" of Said in relation to Blp; Edward Said is no longer living. As the "See also" sub-section appears in "Controversies," any reader of this article on Jacobs can read about those controversies in the cross-referenced CAMERA article. That is why I added the revised material to its note 12 in it instead of in this article. --NYScholar 18:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
On the CAMERA page, it now claims that someone else founded the organization, but here it says Jacobs founded it. At a quick read of discussion pages, all I can really tell is that this seems to be a very controversial area. Would somone who is working on this topic please sort through what is going on? - Jmabel | Talk 03:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The current version of this article now cites A Brief History of CAMERA", which makes clear that Charles Jacobs neither founded nor co-founded CAMERA. CAMERA has a single founder, Winifred Meiselman, identified as such in its account of its own history. Apparently, Jacobs' involvement with CAMERA began after the founding of the Boston chapter in 1988 by Andrea Levin, its executive director (head); he became the "deputy director" of the Boston chapter, which, after the retirement of "Win" Meiselman, the founder of CAMERA, became the national headquarters, etc.; Levin (not Jacobs) succeeded Meiselman. See W's article on CAMERA for more information as well. --NYScholar 02:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Here are the relevant passages quoted from that "Brief History of CAMERA" just linked above and in the notes to the article:
The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, or CAMERA, was founded in Washington, DC in 1982 by Winifred Meiselman, a teacher and social worker. Mrs. Meiselman formed CAMERA to respond to the Washington Post’s coverage of Israel’s Lebanon incursion, and to the paper’s general anti-Israel bias. Joining CAMERA’s Executive Board in the early days were such prominent Washington-area residents as Saul Stern and Bernard White. Win also recruited an Advisory Board which included Senators Rudy Boschwitz and Charles Grassley, Congressman Tom Lantos, journalist M. Stanton Evans, Ambassador Charles Lichenstein, Pastor Roy Stewart, and Rabbi David Yellin.
Under Win’s leadership CAMERA created chapters in major cities, including New York, Chicago, Fort Lauderdale, Los Angeles, Miami, San Francisco, Philadelphia, and in 1988 a Boston chapter and office, founded and led by Andrea Levin. Ms. Levin had taught English in inner city Philadelphia, and later served as associate editor of the Journal of Policy Analysis and Management at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government.
CAMERA opens Boston chapter (click for full size). [photo on site]
In 1989, CAMERA took a large step forward with a highly successful conference organized by the Boston chapter: “The Media, The Message and The Middle East.” The event galvanized public interest concerning the media’s power to sway public opinion on Middle East policy – and the potential harm of distorted coverage. Held at Boston’s Park Plaza Hotel, the conference drew an overflow crowd of more than 1000 attendees, and featured such well-known speakers as Norman Podhoretz, editor of Commentary Magazine, Ambassador Alan Keyes, Professors Alan Dershowitz of Harvard University, Ruth Wisse of McGill University, Jerrold Auerbach of Wellesley, and David Wyman of UMass Amherst. Joining these speakers were Ms. Levin, who documented the Boston Globe’s bias against Israel, and the Boston chapter’s Deputy Director, Charles Jacobs, who critiqued a biased teacher’s guide which accompanied a PBS documentary.
. . . . In 1991 Ms. Meiselman retired due to health problems, and leadership of the organization passed to Ms. Levin. The Boston chapter became the national – and eventually the only – office of CAMERA, as the local chapters were allowed to reincorporate separately or to close. (Notably, the San Francisco chapter, headed by entrepreneur Gerardo Joffe, became FLAME, Facts and Logic about the Middle East, and exists to this day.)
A 1991 letter to CAMERA members signed by Ms. Levin and by Win Meiselman, CAMERA's Founder (click for full size).[Photo on site]
Under Ms. Levin’s leadership CAMERA’s membership grew within a few years from 1000 to over 20,000, and now numbers over 55,000, and besides the Boston headquarters the organization also has offices in Washington, DC, New York, Chicago, and Israel. . . . (bold print added)
--NYScholar 02:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Editors are reminded not to add information that raises BLP issues without appropriate RS support.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 20:34, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Jacobs has garnered a fair amount of media attention in the weeks after the Boston Marathon bombings. That should be added in an NPOV way. Haberstr ( talk) 05:54, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
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Even though they're both in Boston, this is not the Charles Jacobs who runs the Boston Bruins.
Now that it's established that Jacobs is a public figure, the public figure rules apply. Negative information is appropriate. -- John Nagle 23:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Several of his own bio pieces mention that he has a doctorate from Harvard, but in what? -- John Nagle 23:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I've just corrected the information about his degree. He does not have a Ph.D.; it's a Ed.D., and he received it in 1988, not 1989 (as previously stated).--NYScholar 01:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
His main activity is as the head of the anti-Slavery group. It is in this capacity that he has appeared on all those shows, and has been published in all those news-sources, and for which he won the award. Please stop distorting his biography by inserting secondary activities in the lead, and forcing his main activities elsewhere. Also, please stop destroying references. Jayjg (talk) 23:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
[I relocated the comment below today--NYScholar 00:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)]
Actually, he's only a co-director of "The Sudan Campaign". See this letterhead. [2] That's run out of Fredricksburg, VA, by others, while Jacobs' main organizations are all Boston-based. -- John Nagle 06:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
SourceWatch is just a wiki. We don't link to blogs and wikis, particularly when they seem to contain defamatory material about Living Persons. Please see WP:BLP. Jayjg (talk) 23:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Nagle, I don't know what's going on here, but you can't use Wikipedia as your personal soapbox and that's what this looks like. My apologies if there's something else to it. You added as a "criticism" section a link to an article by a Columbia junior! That was it. No text, just the link. This isn't good editing by any standard. I hope this anti-Israel campaign stops soon because it's causing a lot of trouble and leading to some pretty bad articles, and that's particularly unacceptable when it comes to a living person. Please edit in accordance with BLP, which is policy. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
John, why do you keep claiming that it is "apparently the only" Boston Freedom Award? It's not clear to me why you would insert this POV, except to denigrate the award in some way. Furthermore, you still haven't found a source which states that is it actually "the only" one ever awarded; instead you are using original research to make that claim, based on your interpretation of a website of unknown provenace. The purpose of creating biographies of living persons is to describe notable people in a neutral way, not to find a means of denigrating marginally notable individuals. Jayjg (talk) 23:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
NYS, you're introducing stylistic errors e.g. changing PhD to Doctorate [sic], and it's odd to put his PhD before his teenage activities. There are a number of other, similar changes. Could you say how you feel these improve the text? SlimVirgin (talk) 04:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
The passage has been quoted over and over again in the article; it says "Doctorate [sic]," and I was quoting it in full. Read the history. If you don't know what "being graduated" from a university means, you don't know proper English usage. Universities graduate students; they are "graduated from" or "graduated by" universities; "was graduated from" is the proper English usage. If you don't know that, that doesn't mean it is incorrect. It just means that you do not know that.
You've made it impossible for me to reply due to editing changes. I've changed the heading. This comment section should not be made about me; I'm removing the personal attacks: focus on the subject, not the person making the changes is Wikipedia policy. If I can get back to editing without the conflicts, I'll re-quote the passage in talk so you can see that I was quoting the passage in full. What you are objecting to "Doctorate [sic]" is in the source. The source has been plagiarized from and I provided the passage (see history).--NYScholar 05:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
==Education== + ==Early life and education== - "Jacobs graduated from Rutgers University and received his Doctorate [sic] from Harvard in 1989. As a teenager, Jacobs was active in the civil rights movement, and attended Dr. Martin Luther King's March on Washington, in 1963. In 1993, Jacobs learned about the continuing existence of traditional slavery in North Africa and, with a group of African human rights activists, formed the American Anti-Slavery Group, which monitors and combats modern-day human bondage around the globe." [The source is in the Notes: Powell. (I've added bold print for the quotation marks; those quotation marks were in one of my previous edits to which I was referring when talking about the word "Doctorate [sic]" above.].
So we don't repeat it unless we're quoting, and there is obviously no need to quote in this case. Ditto for all your other points. We read the sources, learn about the subject, then write about the subject, sticking closely to what the sources say in terms of meaning, but ensuring at the same time that the article is well written, which this one currently isn't, and without being slaves to the sources to the point of writing "Doctorate" just because the source does (unless it's in some way significant, but it isn't in this case). SlimVirgin (talk) 06:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I found the reference to "Boston 2000" in the Millennium citation; I missed it earlier due to tiredness from editing. Sorry. That's fine now. I did reorganize the order of sentences in the opening paragraph to read more logically (which I had done earlier but someone kept reverting to the illogical order). I don't, however, think it's necessary to list Jacobs' speaking engagements and publications history from his public relations bios that he and his reps provide to speakers' bureaus. Anyone can read that information themselves in the articles linked via the citations (though I've left that material in the article). Otherwise, I really don't see any problems with the current version of the article; it just may need expanding and continuing vigilance regarding maintaining NPOV.--NYScholar 06:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
This is the source passage for some of the information about where Jacobs' "work" has been published, after it cites one of his articles published in The New York Times:
"His work has been featured in publications including the Wall Street Journal, The New Yorker, and The Boston Globe. He has also appeared on ABC's World News Tonight, NPR's Talk of the Nation, and CBS This Morning." (See note 1)
Note the word "including": it was part of my justification earlier for using the phrase "such . . . as." The list of publications is a selective one (and possibly quite dated).--NYScholar 17:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Here are the Massachusetts corporarate records for Jacobs' organizations.
It looks like he does his organizations sequentially, phasing out of one when he starts another. That's consistent with the info from the New York Times archives. -- John Nagle 06:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
[added heading in talk by --NYScholar 17:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)]
I added a history section, with all the verified events we have so far in chronological order. This is starting to look like a bio. We could use a date for his graduation from Rutgers. -- John Nagle 16:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Now that have located and verified place of birth as Newark, New Jersey, added that information and renamed section called "History" and then "Chronology" to "Biography."-- NYScholar 19:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
[WARNING: See tag above; especially Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons.]--NYScholar 20:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC) [NOTE: This policy applies to talk pages for articles as well as for the articles.]--NYScholar 20:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Jacobs' David Project is behind a controversial movie about some Columbia University faculty being too pro-Palestinian, or anti-Israel. That's worth researching. Search for"Columbia Unbecoming". -- John Nagle 19:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The David Project and Jacobs are also involved in a complicated defamation lawsuit involving their efforts to stop the building of a big mosque in Boston. Searching for "Charles Jacobs" lawsuit will bring up many articles. There's a (deleted blog) with a helpful timeline.
Recent articles from various sides include: [deleted by --NYScholar 20:04, 27 July 2006 (UTC). [See explanation below and Wikipedia's policy on blogs, self-published websites, and so on.] . . . . Well, at least we're finding more press references. -- John Nagle 19:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
"Unsourced or poorly sourced negative material about living persons should not be posted to articles or talk pages. If you find any, please remove it immediately. . . ." (Italics added.)
Until each one of those sources that JN linked above (which I deleted earlier following the above-quoted policy--and after consulting the notes linked in the tag) is properly evaluated and vetted and deemed reliable and verifiable and in keeping with Wikipedia policy for citations used in articles on living persons, they cannot stay in talk. By now I've sifted through citations, after rejecting any references to not-authoritative, non-verifiable blog entries and one-sided "news" accounts posted on partisan self-published websites (no matter what the biases), and found a couple of items that I've incorporated into the article on the David Project and the American Anti-Slavery Group, where they belong (not in this article on a living person). [One is from The Boston Globe (which I found on my own) and another is the official policy statement on a lawsuit against an organization posted on its own official website.] The bonafide and verifiable mass media articles pertain to the organization being sued perhaps more directly than they do to its founder (the person per se) [though that may be debatable]. I presented the information in the article on the organization. since then I noticed the website of the David Project's reference to the suit as a "lawsuit that has been initiated against it and against one of its employees today by the Islamic Society of Boston." Authoritative and well-sourced articles about the controversy still would be more appropriately placed (due to the "living person" tag) not in this biographical article about the living person or in this talk page. They seem more safely placed (if vetted and found proper sources) in discussion of the organization being sued (which is cross-linked with this article on Charles Jacobs). Everyone who has been posting on this page prior to the last comment is probably well aware of such controversies (if they know anything about the subject of this article Charles Jacobs); any Google search will turn them up. Wikipedia articles are not substitutes for listing unevaluated sources that one finds in Google searches (esp. blog entries and ideological self-published websites). (Many actually would question if the organizations founded and co-founded by Charles Jacobs themselves fall into that category, I would still point out!) If one wants to know more about the subject of this article and wants to do "original research" about it on one's own after reading the Wikipedia article, one can easily do so. But incorporating that "original research" into the article on Wikipedia without evaluating and vetting the sources before citing them in the article or the talk page for the article violates the tagged notice and Wikipedia:Citing sources policies. See defamation, which incorporates slander and libel definitions. --NYScholar 23:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC) [I corrected some things that I find to be misstatements in my above comment; but I didn't realize that I was making corrections to an older post; I'm leaving the changes for informational purposes; sorry if any confusion ensues re: timing of the posts, threading etc. I'm time-dating this one too, however.--NYScholar 00:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)]
"So: it is evident that John wants to cover this material and NYScholar does not." (JzG)
- Boston Globe article [JN's link resolves to a registration page, requiring registration before reading the article. I've added the proper link already to the DP article anyway.]
- David Project
The sources from the blog (timeline) and the ideological non-neutral "sides" expressed on other organizations' self-published and politically-ideological websites are not sources that Wikipedia allows articles to use. They are considered the opposite, the kinds of sources that Wikipedia itself defines as "poorly sourced." --NYScholar 00:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
BTW: I had come across that blog entry w/ the timeline a day or so before JN mentioned it here in talk, and I rejected the possibility of using it in a Wikipedia article (whether on the living person or the organization). I'll review it again later, but I won't re-post its link here. Anyone else can read it on his or her own (if doing original research) too. NB: According to that blog's entry about the May 2005 lawsuit, it is not Charles Jacobs who is directly named in that suit but rather, as The David Project's own statement says an "employee" of The David Project, identified by the blogger as "director of education (Anna Kolodner)." That is one more reason why it seems inappropriate to post those links about the suit in this article about Jacobs. I've added updates to the article on The David Project instead. --NYScholar 00:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
One can find the legal documents naming the parties involved in the suit at The David Project link with them. As its biases would lead one to expect, William Kristol's Weekly Standard neo-conservative blog [linked on his site] is not an acceptable source according to Wikipedia standards for citation. In this case, the claim that you say that you are citing from it is incorrect; it is not substantiated by the posted court documents (pdf files & verifiable official documents), which do not name Mr. Jacobs directly and the discussion of the court case is already included in the article on the David Project now anyway. Speaking for myself, I have no interest in either side of this controversy. As someone who has spent a considerable amount of time trying to edit this and related articles, trying to be vigilant with regard to highly-volatile recent contexts, I am interested in verifiable presentation of sources whose accuracy has been vetted and which avoids bias so as to maintain as NPOV as possible in the construction of the article. One does not want to mislead Wikipedia readers all over the world. The case pertains to the David Project article directly; not to this article directly. See the other article. These articles are clearly enough cross-linked and this discussion is really now moot. --NYScholar 06:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
"To a complaint filed in May against the Boston Herald and Fox 25 News, ISB added Anna Kolodner, the David Project’s director of education. It also named author and lecturer Steven Emerson of the Investigative Project, Steven Cohen and Dennis Hale of the group Citizens for Peace and Tolerance and William Sapers as defendants in the defamation lawsuit. . . ." --NYScholar 18:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Scroll back up to Talk:Charles Jacobs (political activist)#Public figure; other editors have already made most of the same points to JN, which he continually resists. Seems to be JN's problem, not theirs, or mine. All the Wikipedia policies that they and I (subsequently) have cited still pertain. --NYScholar 06:40, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
[editing conflicts]
"For sure we do [not] repeat allegations made in a single blog. Allegations repeated in a hundred blogs should be debated: 'a hundred blogs say Jacobs murdered his mother'; then we can investigate their sources andd show there are none and again reject it. What we can't do is assert as fact things for which we do not have (preferably multiple) high quality sources. [This is indeed what JN did when he posted and re-posted the links to Pipes's blog and the incorrect article in The Daily Standard!.] WP:BLP exists to prevent hatchet jobs and as an interdict against edit wars over potentially libellous [sic] content, it is not there to prevent debate on matters which have reasonable currency, in order to weigh up wheether [sic] they should be included or not." [See the bold print added, revealing the inconsistency of this argument.]
I've cleaned up the article again; I've had to remove various original research, unsourced smears, references which don't meet WP:BLP, etc. Please note that this is an encyclopedia article, and a biography; therefore, it is written as an article not in point form, and it states what it knows, not what it doesn't know. Also, any negative information must be impeccably sourced. Jayjg (talk) 21:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for both saying so. I'd like to repeat, this is a biography of a living person, so if we include anything negative, it must come only from very reliable sources. Jimbo is very, very concerned that we all follow WP:BLP. Jayjg (talk) 21:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I added an "s" to this section. After JN introduced some new controversial material in a non-neutral manner, working with the same sources that he cites in 2 notes, I have merged them, identified the quotations, and thus tried to restore the article to a more neutral presentation of facts, with adequately identified citations formatted consistently with previous citations in notes. I recommend that one avoid misleading use of the passive voice that fails to identify the agents of actions (like who is speaking in a quotation) and that one give contexts of quotations (not quote "out of context" in misleading ways). --NYScholar 22:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
And the source is entirely quoted accurately. Those are HIS words that the reporters are quoting in the articles. See the block quotations and the internal quotation marks in the sources. What exactly is your problem here? Whatever it is, you are not accurately stating it. See JN's version and how misleading that was. --NYScholar 03:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Grammar: transitive and intransitive verb forms: e.g., "to graduate" and "to be graduated" In terms of proper English grammar usage: Schools "graduate" students; students are "graduated from" schools.
"to graduate" is" "To be granted an academic degree or diploma": Usage:
"Either graduated or was graduated is possible in sentences such as She graduated (or was graduated) from college. Graduated is now more common. Although was graduated is considered an affectation by some [e.g., SV], it is an equally acceptable alternative in such examples, according to 77 percent of the Usage Panel. From is necessary in either case. She graduated college is termed unacceptable by 93 percent of the Panel."
—The American Heritage of the English Language. --NYScholar 10:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The continual changes of my phrase "was graduated from Rutgers University" are unnecessary. It is correct usage and there is no reason to change it. A majority of the Usage Panel of the dictionary considers it "an equally acceptable alternative." Please use a dictionary. Thanks.--NYScholar 10:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The article now claims "In 2004-2005, according to The Boston Globe, along with other members of his local community, Dr. Jacobs attempted (unsuccessfully) to prevent the public access cable TV station in Newton, Massachusetts from continuing to broadcast Mosaic: World News from the Middle East." However, none of the sources I can see actually says Jacobs tried to stop the program from airing; instead it just says he criticized the show. Can someone here provide some source which actually says he tried to stop it from airing? Jayjg (talk) 02:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I only see him commenting on the programs themselves, I don't see where the articles actually state he protested them. Can you quote the specific statements in the articles which show that he attempted to prevent them from being broadcast? Or was there an existing issue, and the paper merely went to him for an opinion on the subject? Jayjg (talk) 03:11, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
The article claims he tried to stop them from appearing, but has no sources which back this claim. Criticizing a program is not trying to stop it from appearing, or even a "protest", and criticizing a program is not particularly noteworth. This is a biography of a living person; rather than inventively interpreting what articles say, we need to quote sources accurately. Jayjg (talk) 03:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I've cleaned it up again, removing all the original research and writing it in encyclopedic form. This was one set of statements about one television program; it shouldn't constitute half the article. Jayjg (talk) 03:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Bye. Total waste of my time.--NYScholar 03:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Came back after working on some other articles; offer the compromise editing version just posted in the article incorporating both povs of both Jayjg and JN, I think.--NYScholar 06:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Your total lack of appreciation for the work that other people are trying to do (this article did not exist last week) is extremely upsetting.
Speaking of "professional" etc.; as far as I know, I am the only "professional editor" who is actually working on this article. That is what I do as a profession in addition to teaching writing at the college/university level and writing books and articles. So I find your attitude extremely derogatory and insulting ("Nonsense"), especially, since you have not done the research (and I'm not talking about "original research" in Wikipedia's terms) but rather just plain reading of secondary sources attempting to evaluate them. (It is easy for you to criticize other people's hard work; it may not be perfect, but it is more than many have contributed, which is, in most cases, nothing.)
I cited the Wikipedia article on SourceWatch, which is a bonafide thing to do. The article has information that one needs to know if one runs into the Source Watch article about Jacobs (cited by someone else originally in this article). I did not list or cite the article per se; I wasn't quite sure what to do with it after someone else had cited it; some other editor added it in first constructing this article. I took it out eventually. But I left the Wikipedia internal link to its own article on SourceWatch in as a reference for those who want it there, because it qualifies use of that as a resource. There is nothing defamatory about the link. So please get your facts straight. Thanks.--NYScholar 09:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
"Neutral" point of view also involves not suppressing criticism of a subject; when other people brought information to my attention or added it, occasionally I left it in for a while. What you distort is that, after realizing the problems with some of that information, I removed it. As far as "Royer" goes, you are judging the source. I just thought it was a source that had some information of use. After you or someone else took it out, I did not put it back in. So please get your facts straight. Look at the history even more closely than you apparently have already been trying to do. And also remember, I thanked you for your revision, even though you took out a great deal of my work, whereas I don't recall your ever having thanked me for my work. You just thanked me for thanking you. I think that says something, doesn't it?--NYScholar 09:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
My link to the Wikipedia article on Sourcewatch is in another article cross-linked to this one, not this one.--NYScholar 09:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
[and]
[added]
NYS, the writing on this page is not good, but when people fix it, you revert them. Please allow others to edit the page. SlimVirgin (talk) 10:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I really don't think you are the sole arbiter of what constitutes "good writing," SV. Plus I always do sign my comments on the talk page. Don't keep bringing this up. They are signed. What is your problem w/ this?
You are constantly reverting my earlier changes, moving things around, leaving out punctuation, adding mistakes, changing references to mistaken references. See the talk pages of the other article on The David Project where I issued a 3RR to you. You've been reverting my work in more than one of these articles re: CJ.
Also, I've already explained more than once that "was graduated from" is correct English usage: scroll to that as well. {"Usage" above.) And please stop telling me that I don't write well. You originated this page, other people (not just I) tried to improve it when you clearly tried to make it an occasion for praising and trumpeting the subject. I'm trying to present him in neutral terms. Read the notes (if they are still there). Read this talk page. I'm tired of this.--NYScholar 11:19, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Some of the sources used in this article have typographical and other errors, and they need to be fact-checked with other sources for verifiability. One source being used as "current" information ("currently") is possibly at least two years (or more) old--2004 is the last press release linked in it: [note 6 actually--see the note "[N.B]": "Note bene" means "Note well."]*[see bullet below]
People are doing "original research" in writing this article and not always relying on multiple verified reliable sources. I do still see inconsistencies among the sources. Other people need to check every single one of them with additional sources before making chronological claims based on them. JN is still in here changing things; what happened to the Wikipedia:3RR re: him and the other editors making reverts within 24-hours. Some of us are just trying to copy-edit and correct minor punctuation errors in the text; not doing anything to the "substance" or contested matters of the substance of the main article. If one sees an actual typographical error, one should be able to correct it. These changes of mistakes are not really contested; people just don't see them. As editing is what I do, I do see some of these details more easily and frequently than other people who do not do this kind of work professionally sometimes do. Correcting errors of mechanics and fact are also forms of "improvement" of articles on Wikipedia as in other encyclopedias and books. --NYScholar 23:33, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
[I removed some of the charges of "vandalism" re: accidental way of posting the tag itself--just a formatting of the tag problem] Scroll up to previous section for explanation of a reason for the tag; scroll up to many other sections for the other problems of accuracy discussed by me and other editors.--NYScholar 02:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)]
NYScholar, you've added a strange tag to the page that inserted the entire contents of other articles here. If you think there are accuracy issues with the article, can you explain what they are? Wikipedia frowns on tagging articles without explaining explicitly why you think the tags are warranted. Jayjg (talk) 00:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry: I went to the right page and provided an explanation there and above here in this talk page I thought (maybe it didn't get saved?), but the tag didn't look the way I thought it was going to look. I just wanted the graphic tag, not the whole page. The tag that I used turned out to be working differently from how I thought it was working. I'm still trying to find the right (small) tag. The explanation is in the talk page I thought (but now I see what I wrote is not here!). I'll look for the right link to the right tag. I've run out of time for this, and I'm very tired at this point. So I don't know how soon I can find what is needed.--NYScholar 01:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The tag intended is at the top of the following page WP:AD. I'm still working on this. The explanations are at the bottom of that page. I thought I was providing a tag that linked to it (but it put the whole page on top of the CJ page (which would still be there, but at the very bottom; not what I intended at any rate; an indadvertent mistyping; not vandalism (contrary to SV's charges!). It's happened before when I was learning how to use tags like "cleanup"; one sees the notice at the top of the page in editing and doesn't realize that the entire help page is there too!) --NYScholar 01:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the mistake; I found the right tag code and added it. It's
This article's factual accuracy is
disputed. (March 2008) |
. The link at the tag goes to the page where explanations are provided about articles being disputed. Sorry it's come to this; but after a week and hours and hours of attempting to deal with the problems relating to this subject to to articles relating to him in good faith, I have brought this to the attention of other administrators.--NYScholar 01:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
It's already here: read previous sections: I have not got endless time to repeat these problems. I've already edited and corrected the problems, but I fear that, once again, SV will see fit to reverting and adding the inaccuracies back in. My editing summaries in my recent changes already make very clear what I was correcting; read the history. I can't do that for you. You have to do that yourself.--NYScholar 02:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Scroll above to my previous section "Errors in some sources being cited." How much clearer could that heading be?--NYScholar 02:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
In response to Jayjg's message to me in on my talk page (and to above question by JN): There were some things that needed fixing; I fixed them; it should be as accurate as we have information to support now; I left the linked dates as they were, but I fixed the remaining inconsistencies in the dates of the references themselves (mostly punctuation errors); made it more concise in verbs. I found the repeated use of "was" in the beginning troubling, because it made Jacobs sound dead: chose action verbs to replace the "was" constructions. Added parethetical "date of birth unknown" as a blank to put a date of birth once there is one known. I figure that he was probably born around 1945-1948, but I can find no information posted in article accessible online with a bonafide date of birth; no sources for a date of birth.
I found some material posted by JN on a talk page for "Charles Jacobs," where it is misplaced; I moved it to this page in his own earlier section asking "What does Charles Jacobs do"; it was posted on July 26, 2006, and did not appear on this page before. I am assuming that he meant to post it here and chose the wrong page by accident.--NYScholar 23:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Here is the direct link to the (other) Charles Jacobs talk page with comments questioning why it is there.--NYScholar 06:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I have now added this article to the requests for arbitration. I'll post the link to it in a minute. This is my notification of the parties involved (scroll up in this talk page) of the request for mediation.--NYScholar 23:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC) [typo corr--NYScholar 05:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)]
Here's the item: Request for arbitration Charles Jacobs (political activist). --NYScholar 00:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
(I think I made this request to the wrong page, and it needs to go to "mediation." I'll try to put it there and fix this order of activities. It will take me a while to re-do it[, if I do.])--NYScholar 00:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)--[updated]--NYScholar 05:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I thought I'd make such a request to mediation, but went to the wrong page (arbitration); I've tried to remove the posted request from arbitration page, but I ran into an "editing conflict"; I think it may be gone from there now though. I'll check again in a bit. I'm holding off for the meantime on making a mediation request first (the proper order). It's very time-consuming, and I hope that the parties involved here will be able to leave this article alone and desist in this dispute. Thanks. --NYScholar 00:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
An anon just added a line about Jacobs, trouble in Darfur, and Orientalism (book). I marked it as "citation needed". Jacobs did come out against that book in a different forum [10], but we don't have a cite to the specific statement added. Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with the removal of that statement. It's really a minor part of the "Columbia Unbecoming" issue, which is covered over at David Project. -- John Nagle 17:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
A source with related commentary by Jacobs (though not about Darfur etc.) quoted is quite easy to find via a Google search for "Charles Jacobs Edward Said Orientalism": See, e.g., an article posted on CAMERA. (The specific quotation added by the anon editor purportedly from a "speech" about "Darfur" given at "Brandeis University" still is not verified from a reliable source, however.) An editing summary in the editing history pertaining to the MOSAIC section (where the additional sentence was added by the anonymous editor without a parallel heading) refers to "defamation" pertaining to Wikipedia policy re: Blp. See the W article on CAMERA: (actually) Note 12, where I added some of the related material. In that note (12), I elided the allusions to living persons which appear in the linked CAMERA article. Technically, now there is no "defamation" of Said in relation to Blp; Edward Said is no longer living. As the "See also" sub-section appears in "Controversies," any reader of this article on Jacobs can read about those controversies in the cross-referenced CAMERA article. That is why I added the revised material to its note 12 in it instead of in this article. --NYScholar 18:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
On the CAMERA page, it now claims that someone else founded the organization, but here it says Jacobs founded it. At a quick read of discussion pages, all I can really tell is that this seems to be a very controversial area. Would somone who is working on this topic please sort through what is going on? - Jmabel | Talk 03:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The current version of this article now cites A Brief History of CAMERA", which makes clear that Charles Jacobs neither founded nor co-founded CAMERA. CAMERA has a single founder, Winifred Meiselman, identified as such in its account of its own history. Apparently, Jacobs' involvement with CAMERA began after the founding of the Boston chapter in 1988 by Andrea Levin, its executive director (head); he became the "deputy director" of the Boston chapter, which, after the retirement of "Win" Meiselman, the founder of CAMERA, became the national headquarters, etc.; Levin (not Jacobs) succeeded Meiselman. See W's article on CAMERA for more information as well. --NYScholar 02:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Here are the relevant passages quoted from that "Brief History of CAMERA" just linked above and in the notes to the article:
The Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, or CAMERA, was founded in Washington, DC in 1982 by Winifred Meiselman, a teacher and social worker. Mrs. Meiselman formed CAMERA to respond to the Washington Post’s coverage of Israel’s Lebanon incursion, and to the paper’s general anti-Israel bias. Joining CAMERA’s Executive Board in the early days were such prominent Washington-area residents as Saul Stern and Bernard White. Win also recruited an Advisory Board which included Senators Rudy Boschwitz and Charles Grassley, Congressman Tom Lantos, journalist M. Stanton Evans, Ambassador Charles Lichenstein, Pastor Roy Stewart, and Rabbi David Yellin.
Under Win’s leadership CAMERA created chapters in major cities, including New York, Chicago, Fort Lauderdale, Los Angeles, Miami, San Francisco, Philadelphia, and in 1988 a Boston chapter and office, founded and led by Andrea Levin. Ms. Levin had taught English in inner city Philadelphia, and later served as associate editor of the Journal of Policy Analysis and Management at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government.
CAMERA opens Boston chapter (click for full size). [photo on site]
In 1989, CAMERA took a large step forward with a highly successful conference organized by the Boston chapter: “The Media, The Message and The Middle East.” The event galvanized public interest concerning the media’s power to sway public opinion on Middle East policy – and the potential harm of distorted coverage. Held at Boston’s Park Plaza Hotel, the conference drew an overflow crowd of more than 1000 attendees, and featured such well-known speakers as Norman Podhoretz, editor of Commentary Magazine, Ambassador Alan Keyes, Professors Alan Dershowitz of Harvard University, Ruth Wisse of McGill University, Jerrold Auerbach of Wellesley, and David Wyman of UMass Amherst. Joining these speakers were Ms. Levin, who documented the Boston Globe’s bias against Israel, and the Boston chapter’s Deputy Director, Charles Jacobs, who critiqued a biased teacher’s guide which accompanied a PBS documentary.
. . . . In 1991 Ms. Meiselman retired due to health problems, and leadership of the organization passed to Ms. Levin. The Boston chapter became the national – and eventually the only – office of CAMERA, as the local chapters were allowed to reincorporate separately or to close. (Notably, the San Francisco chapter, headed by entrepreneur Gerardo Joffe, became FLAME, Facts and Logic about the Middle East, and exists to this day.)
A 1991 letter to CAMERA members signed by Ms. Levin and by Win Meiselman, CAMERA's Founder (click for full size).[Photo on site]
Under Ms. Levin’s leadership CAMERA’s membership grew within a few years from 1000 to over 20,000, and now numbers over 55,000, and besides the Boston headquarters the organization also has offices in Washington, DC, New York, Chicago, and Israel. . . . (bold print added)
--NYScholar 02:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Editors are reminded not to add information that raises BLP issues without appropriate RS support.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 20:34, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Jacobs has garnered a fair amount of media attention in the weeks after the Boston Marathon bombings. That should be added in an NPOV way. Haberstr ( talk) 05:54, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
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