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I cannot believe that Descent with modification is never mentioned, that it what Darwin had stated which later on became known has evolution. The phrase Descent with modification truely deserves some mention. (SND)
I agree completely. According to my science textbook, Darwin didn't even use the term evolution until the very end of The Origin of Species. Throughout the whole book, Darwin used the term "descent with modification." TheDapperDan 12:50, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
To get this up to featured-article standard, which requires 'brilliant' prose, will require substantial work. I'm going through it, making numerous edits; these include changes to the paragraphing. Unfortunately, where this occurs, the track changes don't work, which means that my edits will need to be compared line-by-line with the previous version.
May I put in a plea that the low-value links to years be left unlinked for readability, and to avoid diluting the high-value, topic-focused links? If people feel strongly about leaving them linked, please try the unlinked version for a while; I'll relink if there's overwhelming support for it. Tony 05:10, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Dave, have a look at Australia and the United States, both of which are still quite densely linked after the low-value years were delinked. Much nicer, IMHO. I want to direct readers to high-value links; when there's a sea of them, they'll tend to ignore them. Tony 01:49, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
The main reason for linking dates is so that preferences will work 11 September 2005; September 11, 2005; 2005 September 11 - this applies also when no year is present, but linking years alone (or year and month) is of little value.-- JimWae 02:03, 2005 September 10 (UTC)
Shouldn't a pic of Darwin with a beard be in the lead, since that's his most famous image? Borisblue 01:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm of the opinion we should keep the less familiar picture, particularly as there's one with a beard further down the page. After all, why should this article look like every single other article ever written about Darwin? Garik 13:34, 29 April 2006.
Ironcorona 10:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The first sentence states "[Darwin].... who achieved lasting fame as originator of the theory of evolution through natural and sexual selection." However sexual selection is a subset of natural selection as it states in that article: "Natural selection can be subdivided into two types: (i) ecological selection, ... and (ii) sexual selection"
I cannot see how this can stand, and the only options to solve this problem would be to either,
I would strongly support the latter option. Majts 23:49, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
As there have been no further commments I am removing "sexual selection" from the opening sentence.
Majts
05:51, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
I was very tempted to add an "NPOV" notice to the top of this page after briefly skimming through it, but then I saw that the main issues were just with the image captions; the actual article text is quite good. My problem is that a lot of the image text is worded is unencyclopedically redundant or poetic. "a year before the sudden, tragic loss of his mother." would make just as much sense without "tragic" (it would be tragic in any situation, so stating so is redundant and comes across as telling readers how to feel about X event). "The devoted father Charles Darwin" is, again, a bit too fluffy for my taste; aren't most fathers devoted? Not being devoted to your children is more noteworthy, I'd think. If there's a source stating that he was a devoted father (or better yet, detailing some event that would show he's a devoted father to most readers: it's always better to show or demonstrate a judgment call than to just state it), it would make a better addition to the rather short and list-ish "Marriage and children" section. "an eminent sage" also seems a bit much, especially since "eminent" and "pre-eminent" are repeated six times in the article, including thrice in image captions. Also, captions like "Charles Darwin was revered by many as a great thinker" are both POVed and too generic; information about specific ways he influenced later thought would be more useful and informative. Hitler's been revered by many as a great thinker, too; things need to be in their proper context to avoid confusion. - Silence 07:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I too almost removed the link when I first saw it, but after reconsidering it, I actually think that linking to theory is a pretty damned good idea. One of the most common arguments against the theory of evolution is that "it's just a theory", which shows that a huge number of laypeople have no understanding at all of what the word "theory" means in science. A lot of confusion can be avoided by linking to a page which makes it very clear what a "theory" is, especially since most of the rest of the article, and of the entire Darwin series of articles, discusses his discoveries using the exact word "theory"; "development of theory", "inception of theory", "publication of theory", etc. I'm opposed to excessive linking (as can be seen by my unlinking a number of redundant or unnecessary links in my edits, and clarifying others), but we must also remember to state the obvious sometimes. Or in this case, link the obvious—even better because it requires no extra text! - Silence 00:56, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
While the whole passage about Old Testament inaccuracies is excellent, it's already quoted in full in Charles Darwin's views on religion with some explanation. A brief statement would be more appropriate here, so I've tried to summarise the main points. Regarding rephrasing of the first paragraph, Desmond states that "on calm days Darwin's plankton-filled tow-net left him wondering why beautiful creatures teemed in the ocean's vastness, where no human could appreciate them." and "But nature had its own evils, and Darwin always remembered with a shudder the parasitic ichneumon wasp, which stored caterpillars to be eaten alive by its grubs. He would later consider this evidence against the beneficent design of nature.", but doesn't relate the first point to Paley's optimistic views. (Brittanica, there's more detail in Desmond and Moore's book). Another point to think about is the Later life and death heading for the earlier section: there's a tendency to dismiss his post-Origin work which this hints at, and something like Further work could put the period more positively... dave souza 23:54, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it is very notable that Darwin and his son Francis are credited with the discovery of plant auxins (plant growth hormones). Would there be interest in adding this to the article? - LouieS 05:54, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I have tried to improve this article. I hope it will soon be good enough to be featured. Please will other Wikipedians go through my attempted improvements carefully. I'm only human. Barbara Shack 19:22, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
When this article is nominated for Featured Article status, I highly suspect that the main problem that people will use to justify "object" votes will be deficiencies in Charles Darwin's sub-articles. A Featured Article is expected to not only be high-quality in its own writing, but also to be at least be good-quality in all of the text of its series of pages, not just the text on the main page. This article's come a long way, but I think we should start to seriously focus (not that some haven't already "seriously focused", there's been some great work put into the sub-articles too) on the sub-pages to bring them closer to the quality of Charles Darwin itself. Comments, agreements, disagreements? - Silence 22:00, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I stated that Darwin was a blasphemer, and to the definition, would that not be correct?
No, because there are many Christians who believe that Darwin's evolution theory is merely an extension of "God's will". Also your labeling of him as a blasphemer is a POV. Olorin28 03:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
"No, you are wrong. If you take a poll right now randomly in the world, i doubt that even 5 percent support what you are saying. Your 65 percent is completely made up and false"
"...i doubt that even 5 percent support what you are saying." Isn't that your OWN view that only 5% support my view? You can't use that against the fact that 65% of the world is a religion that DOES believe in creation.
"...If you take a poll right now randomly in the world..."
go ahead, make sure you get EVERYONE.
I also emailed the whitehouse, so if they reply, that would be a pretty notable person.
What? Jesus Christ called Darwin a blasphemer? Darwin wasn't even born when Jesus Christ died. By the way, I am pretty sure that the White House won't reply. It is NOT a religious institute anyway, and it will cause a political furor. Olorin28 13:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I congradulate everyone for contributing, very good. By the way Darwin lived over 1,800 years after Christ, I think the person meant to say "the bible" refers to Darwin as being a blasphemer.
That's the most bizarre use of a bible verse on the way that no man can truly know another person's motivations as that person knows himself (and then going on to say that similarly, we can't know why God does things at times) I have ever seen. Adam Cuerden talk 22:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't say he was a ‘douche bag’ in fact he was a man with a realistic vision, away from religion which has such primitive beliefs. I would say that in humanity religion has gotten mankind nowhere only to be constantly (if not subconsciously) afraid of going to hell. There is such thing as having personal spirituality like Buddhism, mastering Yoga ect. The problem is that religion is nothing more than a group organization telling you what to believe. We are in the 21st century and despite computers, modern buildings, advanced technology (ie. NASA) about 80% of the world still needs to believe in something neither physically explained nor proven fact.
As to evolution most outsiders to science ignore physical evidence staring them in the face such as how man obviously evolved from lesser forms of animals. Despite Darwin's critics he said that he didn't care if he evolved from apes, he liked all forms of life connected as a whole. I think people are afraid of the idea that animals change and so does man (physically and technologically). Darwin is not to be confused with Albert Einstein, he was simply a man with a sense of exploration.-- King of the Dancehall 17:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
The expansion of Darwinism to social Darwinism was invented through the works of Herbert Spencer. Herbert Spencer’s “understanding included the Lamarckian theory of inheritance of acquired characteristics and emphasized the direct influence of external agencies on the organism’s development. He denied (as Darwin had argued) that evolution was based on the characteristics and development of the organism itself and on a simple principle of natural selection.”( http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/spencer.htm) Spencer, not Darwin, emphasized the competitive nature of a species and coined the term ‘survival of the fittest.’ Furthermore, Spencer extended his theory into human social behavior and that “specialization led to self-sufficiency and individuation”( http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/spencer.htm) His principles were further mangled to justify to the Nazi ‘breeding program’ and other eugenic forms of oppression. Spencer, not Darwin, defined society as “an aggregate of individuals, and change in society could take place only once individual members of that society had changed and developed. Individuals are ‘primary,’ individual development was ‘egotistic,’ and associations with others largely instrumental and contractual. ” ( http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/spencer.htm#H5)
I would hardly call Geoff Price's stuff original research. Besides, it has citations, people can go and check them. The fact is that he makes a compelling argument. - FrancisTyers · 15:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I've edited the article to remove references to evolution as a "theory." Evolution is not a theory - it is an observation (true or false) that, if true, must somehow be explained. That is, evolution (in Darwin's sense of 'descent with modification') is an explanandum (something that needs to be explained), it is not itself an explanation (an explanans). See Gould's essay "Evolution as fact and theory" at http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html. NOTE: creationists and those who believe in intelligent design (ID) and whatnot should not be upset with this change. ID is a theory (just like it's rival, natural selection) meant to explain evolution. Mikkerpikker 21:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Excerpt from Gould's essay: "In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"—part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus creationists can (and do) argue: evolution is "only" a theory, and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is less than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? ... Evolutionists have been clear about this distinction between fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory—natural selection—to explain the mechanism of evolution. He wrote in The Descent of Man: "I had two distinct objects in view; firstly, to show that species had not been separately created, and secondly, that natural selection had been the chief agent of change. . . . Hence if I have erred in . . . having exaggerated its [natural selection's] power . . . I have at least, as I hope, done good service in aiding to overthrow the dogma of separate creations." Mikkerpikker 21:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Congrats to Mikkerpikker on a job well done. The difference between the useage of the word "evolution" to mean the fact and its useage to mean the theory is subtle but important. WAS 4.250 09:44, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Do you think we are originally from primates?
This is minor but is there any specific reason why there are external links under "Works"? Wouldn't it make more sense to list Darwin's publications under Works and then put the external links to electronic copies of these under "External links"?? No big deal, just wondering... Mikkerpikker 15:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I have to agree with what JPotter said in his point that evolution is most certainly a theory and not a fact. To call something a Fact it must be 100% true, and in the case of Science, able to make accuate predictions. This is not the case with Evolution, for we cannot be sure that it describes accurately the natural history of this planet.
The introduction should be changed from Fact to Theory
A piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred. A statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened. An event known to have happened or something known to have existed. A concept whose truth can be proved. And it also says that "scientific hypotheses are not facts" RossNixon 06:44, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Science cannot verify information in the Popperian sense. It can only falsify. Thus in science fact refers to something with widespread empirical support, which has survived all meaningful critiques. Indeed, by the wordweb definition there is no such thing as a 'fact' as we know it, since we can only falsify rather then prove. If you feel that science itself cannot prove facts then that is a legitimate epistemological position, but this page is not the place to start such an interpretation. I'd suggest discussing the matter on the science portral to see what they think if you feel strongly about it. -- Davril2020 10:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Clearly Lord Monboddo stated the principles of evolution 75 years earlier. is there any knowledge that darwin read monboddo's work? they both lived in edinburgh for significant lengths of time. Anlace 21:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Gravity is a theory too...
Currently the first sentence reads:
Charles Robert Darwin ( February 12, 1809 – April 19, 1882) was a British naturalist who achieved lasting fame by establishing the fact of evolution and proposing the scientific theory that this could be explained through natural and sexual selection.
I honestly quite like it the way it is and think it is perfecly NPOV but I have a feeling keeping it this way will result in a perpetual edit war with the Great Unwashed who do not understand evolution. Perhaps we can soften the "establishing the fact of evolution" part to avoid this? Suggestion:
Charles Robert Darwin ( February 12, 1809 – April 19, 1882) was a British naturalist who achieved lasting fame by providing the first detailed evidence for the fact of evolution and proposing the scientific theory that this could be explained through natural and sexual selection.
Please let me know what you think of this suggestion... Mikkerpikker 20:19, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Charles Robert Darwin ( February 12, 1809 – April 19, 1882) was a British naturalist who achieved lasting fame by providing the first detailed evidence for the occurrence of evolution and proposing the scientific theory that this could be explained through natural and sexual selection.
Mikkerpikker 22:42, 13 Janu»ary 2006 (UTC)
I do prefer the suggestion of jackofoz. Anythings better than saying he "established the fact of evolution" or using the word fact anywhere in the intro. Sounds a bit unpro - A. Simms
Charles Robert Darwin ( February 12, 1809 – April 19, 1882) was a British naturalist who achieved lasting fame by convincing the scientific community of the occurrence(/existence) of evolution and proposing the theory that this could be explained through natural and sexual selection.
?? Mikkerpikker 14:36, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, perhaps, but for a long time before Darwin there were many convinced Lamarckians etc. that did not doubt some form of evolution. Fawcett5 18:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I added a section to the talk page for "Intelligent Design" that provides some historical context that might be relevant here. (There the title is "Pre-Darwinian Ripostes," althought it could easily be adapted to help lay the foundations for a section that goes into greater detail as to why Darwin's ideas fit the demands of the time.) We're currently debating what to do with it. If you feel strongly, please add your comments. -- JTBurman 00:58, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I think this an excellent article and it seems to me the only thing preventing it from being featured is lack of references (see WP:WIAFA & WP:V). Is it possible for those who wrote the article or know where to info comes from to add refs? Mikkerpikker ... 11:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
How about replacing the first image ( Image:Charles_Darwin_1881.jpg) with Image:Charles Darwin by Julia Margaret Cameron.jpg from commons? Reasons:
Comments welcome! Mikkerpikker ... 18:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
We discussed this before, and that particular picture which is already used under Evolution by natural selection has a worried look that fits well with the caption "fearing both religious and scientific criticism". In my opinion a bearded picture at the top is fine, but if we must promote one of these beardless pictures to the top, my preference is for Image:Charles Darwin by G. Richmond.jpg which shows him at the time he was first putting together his theory. Please continue the search for a better picture. ... dave souza, talk 23:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm probably walking into a landmine on this but here's my proposed introduction:
What I've done: 1. De-emphasize sexual selection. I know, Darwin loved it like a baby, but it's not what gave him lasting fame -- almost all of his contemporaries dismissed it outright without much consideration. 2. He didn't really "convince" the entire community outright, but he did marshall compelling evidence for it and really move it into the realm of serious discussion. This is pretty significant and deserves being mentioned but "convinced" is just historically inaccurate. 3. Removed the "central explanatory paradigm" stuff. I don't think the sentence is necessary and I think that the connection between the modern evolutionary synthesis and the theories Darwin proposed is still a little too far removed to simply say that his theory is now the central paradigm in biology. But I'm completely willing to defer to a biologist on this issue (less so on the others, which are historical issues).
Now, let's try to do this without some big discussion about creationism, eh? ;-) I'm perfectly happy with alternative wordings (I am not much of a wordsmith) but the two things I am trying in particular to correct is 1. too much success/fame being attributed to sexual selection (just not true, in his time; even today it is not taken nearly as seriously as natural/ecological selection) and 2. try to avoid overstating the effect on the community. In fact, the part in the intro in which it says his book established natural selection as the most common scientific explanation is probably the closest to the truth -- which is not the same thing as convincing the scientific community, which implies a somewhat higher degree of effect to my ears. -- Fastfission 04:04, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Mikker ... 21:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't yet know how to make this it's own section... The article states under EARLY LIFE: When exams began to loom Darwin focused more on his studies and received private tuition from Henslow.
Did he receive private lessons? I doubt he received tuition..but I might be wrong. Anyone? (unsigned comment by 68.249.6.220, moved to foot of page by dave souza, talk 09:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC))
Do we have a source to justify that category here? JoshuaZ
It is my understanding that Erasmus Darwin (Chales' grandfather) had written a book called Zoonomia in verse of which Origin adds little. IT is also my understanding that the following reference works uphold this view.
With such an extensive article it is hard to know where such information fits as it may cause local contradictions within the text. These would need to be eased to reflect this "new" information.
Ideas? -- Lord Matt 18:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
There was a discussion a while back in the archive about whether Darwin was vegetarian after someone added that category. I've worked on the vegetarian tag in the past so I did some research. The answer seems to be a definite no. I've read much of the Voyage of the Beagle and he ate various kinds of meat enthusiastically, without mention of any reservations. I have found that later in his life he ate a restricted diet but one that did include meat. I have been unable to find any sources that indicate that Darwin was vegetarian or even close for any period of time. Many of his writings have indicated a humanity and a kinship towards animals (after all, he developed the theory of natural selection), and he has also spoken to the need for reform (although not abolition) of vivisection, so perhaps these passages mislead some people to thinking he was also vegetarian. I think mainly a lot of the "famous vegetarians" lists get copied around and compiled and end up with inaccuracies, just as other "famous X people" lists do. NTK 23:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I tried setting up an infobox with some details about Darwin yesterday, but the change was reverted almost straight away, the reason given by Duncharris was "oh dear that is foul". I tried to discuss it with Duncharris but I didn't get anywhere, so I'm bringing the discussion here.
I think infoboxes play an important part in most articles, among other things they act as a quick reference to the casual reader where important information about the person, place, company, etc can be obtained without trawling the article. I also think the infobox would look much better in place of just a floating image. The FA Carl Friedrich Gauss uses the infobox I used for Darwin and a few days ago I placed the same infobox at Nikola Tesla which seems to be going fine. Any feedback would be appreciated. -- darkliight talk 11:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
It's not clear that it's notable. The Charles Darwin School in Biggin Hill website doesn't seem to say anything about Charles or why the school got the name, but amusingly the house names of Grant, Lyell, Henslow and Wedgwood sound rather familiar. .. dave souza, talk 21:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Charles Darwin School was given its name as a result of being the closest 'new' secondary school to Down House. It's about 2 miles away, or thereabouts. I was a pupil there between 1993 and 2000, and when I first attended, the school's logo was the Darwin family crest (it was a shield with their motto underneath it in Latin). All blazer badges were in this form and all school literature (newsletters etc) were sent out with it on. In around 1994-1995 the logo was changed to a stylised version of the letters "C" and "D". My own opinion of this was that it was a retrograde step :-)
The House names are an addition that has only happened in the years since I left.
I agree it is disappointing that the school that takes its name from Darwin does not have a page that summarises what he did, and some information or photos from Down House. 16/November/2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.2.67.10 ( talk • contribs) 10:14, 16 November 2006
The URL of the Darwin Correspondence Project, which is linked from this page, has changed, and is now < http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk>. The old URL will continue to work for a while. I am not editing the URL myself, since I work for the Project, and understand that I should not add URLs of organisations I work for. Eadp 11:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
This link should be included in the Con section...
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.67.20.74 ( talk • contribs) .
Darwin was quite a below average student, and unequipped to formulate such a bold theory as he did. He was a naturalist, but lacked the necessary tools (science, mathematics, etc.) to really understand what he was talking about. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chicken Soup ( talk • contribs) . who clearly doesn't know what he, she or it is talking about. RTFA. ... dave souza, talk 19:09, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The phrase "their relatives appeared to Darwin to be "savages," little above animals." is a little awkward, due to the "little above animals" part. From an anthropological standpoint, savages were not considered to be "little above animals", like we see them in common culture and media, but simply less sophisticated, less evolved. In sociocultural evolution and evolutionism, there were considered to be three stages of evolution of society; 1) Savagery, 2) Religious, and 3) Positivist. Therefore I feel like the ending of the sentence was inappropriate. retinarow 4:13, 10 May 2006 (EST)
In the fourth paragraph it is stated: "In recognition of Darwin's pre-eminence, he was buried in Westminster Abbey, close to William Herschel and Isaac Newton." But, in the article on William Herschel it reports that he (Herschel) was buried in St. Laurence's Church in Upton. Which is correct?
I have added a similar note to the Herschel article's discussion page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.69.105.44 ( talk • contribs) .
From a discussion at Talk:Evolution#Footers?, it seems to work pretty well to make See also the last section, so that the infoboxes come under that heading in the index rather than following on from external links. So this is something I'll try changing here, hope there are no objections. .. dave souza, talk 20:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to Curtis Clark for reverting a vandal: fwiw this list confirms that Darwin was ranked #16 on Michael H. Hart's list of the most influential figures in history, though they don't credit him with being agnostic. .. dave souza, talk 05:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that it would greatly help the article if someone were to add a map of the five year voyage of the HMS Beagle. In other words a map of all the ports and locations of intrest that the ship visited during the five year journey.-- Pfc Ender 21:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Why repeated images are better? -- Jclerman 20:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
(I'm new to Wikipedia - so if the length of my comment here is unusual, please forgive me)
Mankind, as we know it, is marked by distinctions, some more immediately apparent than others. Race (= ethnicity?) is a complicated question. Specifically, it is not easy to pinpoint any person's race on the basis of photographs, or literary evidence (the latter especially when derived from a time where race theory was far different than it is now, or did not exist). In some churches in Poland (so I've read in a German book), Jesus was shown with blue eyes. In one American movie (I think it was American anyway), he was shown with black skin. These obviously contradictory representations merely illustrate that race is often a matter of identity, and in the case where peoples mix, often the race of either the mother or the father decides what race the child will identify himself with, or be deemed by his community to belong to. Some years ago I visited a natural history museum in Edinburgh which declared that there were three races of man. Kant said there are four. Others create races at will - in phrases like "our great island race" or "Jewish race" etc.. Hence, I suggest that the concept of race, as used commonly, is not in keeping with honest scientific straightforwardness. It is also accepted that skin colour does not automatically fix a person's race. (there are additional factors such as eye colour, hair, skull shape etc., or so I understand, not being a anthropologist myself)
Now let's return to the line (under discussion here) from the article (on Charles Darwin, on Wikipedia):
"He learned taxidermy from John Edmonstone, a freed black slave who told him exciting tales of the South American rainforest."Italic text
I had earlier changed this to "He learned taxidermy from John Edmonstone, a freed South American slave who told him exciting tales of the South American rainforest."
This was challenged and reverted.
Today, I changed it again - deleting the word "black".
What does the word "black" here mean? That the person (if something described by just its colour can still be accorded the dignity of human identity) had black skin all over? Or that he belonged to the negroid race? Can we be sure that he indeed was a pure-blooded negroid? Does it make any difference to our perception of him as one who inspired Darwin with stories? I usually avoid using the word "racist" as I think it has meanings beyond what it really should. (similar to democracy, holocaust, Bosnia, terrorist etc.) However, making a reference to his skin colour here is just that - racist. Actually, it's not even racist - it's just petty, and slightly insulting.
What next? In a similar vein, we might have the Wikipedia article on Schopenhauer which states "Schopenhauer, a white Pole, indicated that he was influenced by Kant, a white philosopher, and Buddha, a brown prince." Or the brown crown prince, as he hadn't inherited when he left his father's kingdom behind.
I'm certain there are occasions when a person's skin colour, or race if you will, need to be pointed out. For example, if a certain medical drug causes different reactions based on a person's genetics. Or if a dark skinned person is being photographed - perhaps more light is needed, as compared to when a fair skinned person is the subject. Or commandos with dark skin might be chosen for a covert mission in Ghana, where those with fair skin might stand out. Or in museums of ethnology, where the actual race is defined. And numerous other such situations. But these are far from commonplace.
Everytime we use pejorative words like black, white, brown, kook, eyetie, commie, chink etc. to refer to a human being, we reinforce an image of him which uses his skin colour, race, nationality, religion, political views etc. as his defining attribute. We strip him of his dreams, songs, poetry, ability to make us laugh and think and love - all that makes him human.
86.139.89.42 21:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)SM, UK. 2225h BST, 31 July 2k+6
How am I being offensive? I'm asking for people to be treated as human beings and not labelled as colours! But I don't really care about your personal opinion of me, so I won't dwell on it further. Regarding what you mention about the acceptability of the term "black" to refer to a person - that's the NAACP's point of view. Or that of its head. Good for him, or her. However, if I truly am in a minority of one, and everyone else is on board - that's fine with me. My views shall remain the same, but I'm happy to respect the verdict of the masses, and shall abstain from further attempts to remove the reference to Mr. Edmonstone's skin colour.
May I respectfully raise two questions:
1. Are we to specify the race of everyone on wikipedia? Or only that of those called "blacks"?
2. What terms are used for describing those who are neither "white" nor "black"?
172.206.198.175 21:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)SM 2240 BST Friday August 04
The context here is that we learn something of Darwin’s character. Most of Darwin’s contemporaries would have regarded a black man and a former slave, as at best socially inferior, at worst as sub-human. Certainly within Darwin’s social class and maybe even acquaintances there would have been many who were former slave owners, or families who’s fortune was based on the slave trade. That Darwin was willing to take instruction from a black man and a former slave, and indeed pay for it, shows us something about Darwin. It does not reflect at all on Edmonstone. As for the term being pejorative, I don’t believe that it is regarded as such. If there is a better term for describing the gentleman’s skin colour, fair enough, let’s have it. But ignoring the fact that Edmonstone was black reduces our understanding of Darwin, and does nothing for Edmonstone. -- Michael Johnson 12:50, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I said that the comment was "offensive" because you basically accused other editors of being racists and of putting racist slurs on an article. Whatever your personal feeling about the value of racial/ethnic labels (it is not obvious that pretending that ethnic/racial distinctions do not exist actually imrpoves anything; groups like the NAACP are aware that pretending they are going to be treated just like everyone else, and do not have their own community issues to deal with, is neither a realistic appraisal or a road to improvement), you should not slip into hyperbolistic comments where you say that "white" and "black" are the equivalent to "chink", a highly offensive term, unless you do not want to be taken seriously. --
Fastfission
22:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry you read an accusation into what was intended to suggest, and I apologize if I was offensive. I believe that words are central to the way we perceive our world in the first place, and (re-)interpret it in the second. You're right - my edits were fuelled as a personal non-state-funded campaign against the usage of the words "black", "white" and many such others to refer to human beings. The techincal racial terms are (obviously) fine. Skin may be black! The extension from skin to person is the sort of linguistic short cut which I object to, for it tends to shape how we think - in addition to the far more intuitive flow of our thinking influencing words we choose.
172.216.225.3
00:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC) SM 0047h BST Sun
I must have missed Michael Johnson's post earlier - hence this late reply. > If there is a better term for describing the gentleman’s skin colour, fair enough, let’s have it. > But ignoring the fact that Edmonstone was black reduces our understanding of Darwin, and does nothing for Edmonstone.
The gentleman's skin colour might well be perfectly described by the word "black". However, I don't think the word describes the gentleman himself. To repeat, I have no hassle with a person's _race_ being pointed out, where relevant (and it has been highlighted as relevant here). The word "negroid" describes a race; "black" does not.
86.139.90.162 19:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC) SM
Do we want an infobox? We've had the discussion before and decided against it, I figured it would be worth raising again since someone has added one to the page without asking. There is no mandate to include infoboxes in articles, it is usually decided on an article-by-article basis.
My biggest problem with infoboxes is that I think they look silly (a subjective, aesthetic judgment, no doubt, but I find trying to fit complex people into little boxes of vital data a silly and ultimately worthless endeavor for an encyclopedia), and that they contain lots of information which is not actually useful to 90% of the people who would read an article, and in any case most of the information is highly redundant (appears elsewhere in the article in easy-to-find places).
As an example of this, the list of Darwin's children appears now twice in the article, and his birth and death dates, along with his nationality and profession and what he is most known for, are now repeated within inches of each other at the top of the article. Most of the other information seems unlikely to be of much interest to the causal reader (his alma mater, his place of birth).
I think the article is fine without it, but I'm willing of course to defer to consensus. -- Fastfission 22:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I dislike the box, it is too long.-- Peta 12:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
From the Darwin page:
"Darwin....though he still believed that God was the ultimate lawgiver."
We know this claim is without any merit whatsoever, and wholly counterfactual. Dennett calls the Darwinian paradigm: "Darwin's inversion" (1995:66). That inversion says matter caused Mind which is diametrically contraposition to the Genesis creation model of Mind causing matter. Therefore, no Mind exists to give laws. Descent (1871, chp.3, Conclusion) clearly relates Darwin's heresy.
The above claim needs scholarly support. Since we know none exists, the writer slips in his or her bias based on a psychological need of distancing Darwin from atheism.
Ray Martinez 8-14-06
Darwin forsook theism prior to the summer of 1837. Notebook B page 36 contains the first sketch of an evolutionary tree of life (Genesis Deity rejected). In 1838 he admitted to being a Materialist (atheist). Since you ignored other content in initial message and will probably continue to do so, the evasions are indicative of the inability to refute. Since the Bible plainly shows persons who think of themselves as theists (Pharisees) while opposing Christ (and thus the work of God) the identification of Darwin as a theist (while opposing the Bible via his theories) is supported in this light and context. IOW, nothing new...."theists" still think they are as such while opposing God/Christ/Bible.
Ray Martinez 8-14-06
CLAIM: Fastfission: ....all biographers of Darwin that I have read attribute his full loss of faith to the death of his daughter...." In any case when he wrote his "Autobiography" he referred to himself as an agnostic, not an atheist
REPLY: Pure fiction evading the bulk of what we know about Darwin. This type of contributor (anonymous, subjective) ignores what I previously wrote (as did the others) and Darwin's undisputed atheistic paradigm. No educated person, much less any scholar, would attach their real name to such a naieve "claim". But in your defense, Dembski made the same unsupported assertion in Intelligent Design (1999).
How could such an informed person like yourself not have read Dr. Janet Browne ?: DARWIN: "I never gave up Christianity until I was forty years of age" (Power of Place, 2002:484). Darwin turned 40 two years prior to the death of Annie in 1851. If your kind takes everthing at face value (like a claim of agnosticism) then I suggest you stay consistent, but like I said anonymous persons have nothing to lose, even though I do realize this is Wikipedia - a public pedia.
REPLY: Darwin called himself an agnostic in regards to a FIRST CAUSE, which means your little diddy is out of context quote mining, very typical of anonymous persons with nothing to lose. Darwin's arguments and theories say he was an atheist since 1837 (Notebook B:36).
"....the main point of Darwin's book was to remove the Creator from nature" (Browne 2002:95).
"Darwin abandoned Christianity in the two years after his return to England....In part this was caused....by his discovery of the invalidity of the argument from design" (Mayr, Growth of Biological Thought 1982:402).
1879, Darwin responded to an inquiry about his religious views and said: "For myself, I do not believe that there ever has been any revelation" (F. Darwin 1905:277).
DARWIN: "Love of the deity effect of organization, oh you materialist!...Why is thought being a secretion of brain, more wonderful than gravity a property of matter?" (Darwin quote from notebook C, written March to June 1838, Browne, Voyaging 1995:373).
In the M notebook (completed in October 1838, Browne 1995:373) Darwin remarks: "To avoid stating how far, I believe, in Materialism...."
In addition, we know that Darwin, after returning home from the Beagle voyage, that is, the years 1836-1839, based on notebook writings had become a [sic] ""materialist" (more or less equivalent to an atheist" (Mayr, One Long Argument 1991:75).
CLAIM: DAVE SOUZA: A source is need for what seems to be your untrue claim that "In 1838 he admitted to being a Materialist (atheist)"
"....your interpretation which is not shared by reputable biographers such as Desmond and Moore."
REPLY: In addition to what is evidenced above, Gould, Ever Since Darwin, (1977:21-27) plainly unfolds Darwin's heretical Materialism with no euphemisms employed. Come on guys....I have only quoted popular scholars....sources that anyone can access.
Context: pre-1839; Desmond & Moore (1991:XVIII): "Clergymen from molluscs! How had he [Darwin] arrived at such damning beliefs? And this was not the worst part. He embraced a terrifying materialism. Only months before he had concluded in his covert notebooks that the human mind, morality, and even belief in God were artefacts of the brain" Then Desmond & Moore quote Darwin's "Love of deity" quote already written above. I could go on and on and on....
I have no intention of editing the page as I would never attach my name to your public grab box. Your lack of confidence in your own worldview and its scientific support tells us everything that we need to know.
Ray Martinez 8-15-06
Dear Fast:
Your commentary is subjective nonsense caused by the inability to refute. All of my claims are supported.
Onlookers: Simply compare what I wrote with source cites and then read others that have virtually none = the Wikipedia way.
Fast: You may have the last word. Your reverse Fundamentalism cannot be penetrated with evidence.
Ray Martinez 8-15-06
Dear Dave:
I honestly never expected you to defend sourceless subjectivity. But like you said, this is Wikipedia. At least you are consistent. My hat is tipped.
Ray
The paragraph is clear but lacks the drastic scope of Darwin's influence and does fully adress his contribution to human civilization. Do you people realize that without Darwin science may have still been shackled by the ideas of creationism? Not only that but his rejection of the fundamental thinking of human origins was the precursor of almost all modern thought. Ask any scientist, scholar and historian and it is DARWIN who is at the cornerstone of all modern science. Without evolution or the ideas he progressed genetics, paleontology, astronomy, and nearly every other scientific pursuit would still be stuck in the 18th century. That's without even taking into effect the ideas of evolution that lead to the future movements of existentialism and other modern movemets in philosophy and art. His contribution to our understanding of the relationship between all living things not only forever changed science but human civilization itself, and the way humans view our place in the world.
REPEAT: HIS IDEAS CHANGED HUMAN CIVILIZATION! R.E.S.P.E.C.T!
talk 07:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The same could be said for Einstein and yet his wiki does him justice and properly address his contribution to the 20th century. Darwin deserves as much. His ideas are more than JUST the cornerstone of biology which they undoubatley are. They have contributed to a fuller understanding of humanity and our place in the world. Could Palentology, anthropolgy etc exist without the idea of evolution put forth in Orgin of Species?
talk 07:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I can't disagree more fully and don't think you're fully grasping the scope of impact "Origin of Species" had. Let me repeat, Darwin is one of the most influential scientists ever, certainly of the last two centuries. His ideas set forth in "Origin of the Species" affected almost every aspect of society. The acceptance of Darwin's theories undermined religious faith in much of the Western world, profoundly affecting literature, art, and society. Easily accepting the profound influence in biology, anthropology, and sociology, his works "Expression of Emotions in Man and Animals," as well as his article, "A biographical sketch of an infant" had a direct effect on American Functionalism, and without functionalism, it is doubtful there would have been a behavioral psychology. Not to forget the impact of "Social Darwinism" on Ruthless Laissez Faire Capitalism. Furthermore, his concept of slow-acting population dynamics, the most important part of his theories, has been applied by scientists such as Edelman and Burnet to other fields.
If you want so-called "principle sources" that attribute "The Origin of Species" and the theory of evolution in particular as one of histories most influential ideas ever, that's easy. Ever heard of James D. Watson, the Nobel laureate and pioneer who discovered the thing we call genes? I suggest you watch this interview with fellow scientist and Harvard professor, Edward Osborne Wilson http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6927851714963534233 in which they agree that Darwin's book, "The Origin of the Species," was the first work to explain nature and man's place in the universe. Basically calling it "easily the most important work of the last two centuries"
David Quammen in his book ORIGINS OF A RELUCTANT GENIUS says: "The ideas he espoused in "The Origin of Species" in 1859 were "profoundly original, and dangerous, and thrilling," Quammen writes, making "Origin" not only one of the most important books about science in the last several centuries, but one of the most important books - period."
And Professor Ellwood in his book THE INFLUENCE OF DARWIN ON SOCIOLOGY, says: "When one reflects upon the immense influence which Darwin's work has had on practically all lines of human thought, and especially on the biological, psychological, and social sciences, one is forced to conclude that Fiske's estimate must be revised, and that Darwin must be given the seat of highest honor as the most fructifying thinker which the nineteenth century produced, not only in England, but in the whole world. And the social significance of Darwin's teachings is even yet only beginning to be apprehended."
ERNST MAYR is one of the towering figures in the history of evolutionary biology and he said "Darwin's accomplishments were so many and so diverse that it is useful to distinguish three fields to which he made major contributions: evolutionary biology; the philosophy of science; and the modern (thought)zeitgeist." For more on Darwin's Influence on Modern Thought: http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/e36_2/darwin_influence.htm
Newsweek calls "Origin of Species" the MOST influential book ever published: www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10118787/site/newsweek/
If you want to do some reading, I recommend just to see how MANY other fields Darwin penetrated then try any of these:
"Influence of Darwin on Philosophy and Other Essays" (by John Dewey)
"Darwin's influence on Freud : a Tale of Two Sciences" (by Lucille B Ritvo)
I think a new opening is needed to address his wide influence and give him is proper respect like the Einstein, Newton pages. talk 07:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Descent of Man. "Origin" starts out very slowly, & "Voyage is best after you already know the later signif. of the trip to him. DGG 07:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I much prefer Desmond and Moore biography, but regardless, if you think Darwin was "behind the times" as you say then I feel like we're never possibly going to be on the same page. Regardless, I feel like I've cited so-called "principle sources"(Nobel laureate) so how about I just make some suggestions to rewording the intro so that it FULLY represents Darwin's scope and influence in ALL fields and get users feedback:
As reference Newton's wiki intro states: "...is generally regarded as one of the greatest scientists and mathematicians in history."
Einstein's wiki intro: "...widely regarded as the most important scientist of the 20th century and one of the greatest physicists of all time."
Shakespears' wiki intro: "... playwright widely regarded as the greatest writer of the English language, as well as one of the greatest in Western literature, and the world's pre-eminent dramatist."
How about(bold are changes):
Charles Robert Darwin (12 February 1809 – 19 April 1882) was an English naturalist who is widely regarded as one of the most influential scientific thinkers of the 19th Century. His ideas about the history and diversity of life - including the evolutionary origin of humankind--contributed to major changes in the sciences, philosophy, social thought and religious belief. His work successfully produced considerable evidence that species originated through evolutionary change, at the same time proposing the scientific theory that natural selection is the mechanism by which such change occurs. This theory is now considered a cornerstone of modern science. His contribution to our understanding of the relationship between all living things has forever changed the way scientists and human civilization itself, views our place in the world
So unless you're saying every-other wiki article needs to be changed to accommodate "hagiography" then we're in for a long haul. talk 07:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
? views ?
Jclerman 11:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
quotation needed for an opinion
Jclerman 11:05, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Why did it send me here? to this talk page?-- 64.12.116.68 14:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
This section was removed by Jrmccall ( talk • contribs) 20:37, 29 September 2006 (UTC) with the comment Removed irrelevant -- and redundant -- section; added ref to - →See Also. There's an argument for saying it's off topic, but on the other hand a brief summary section here makes it clear for people who don't know that. Comments? .. dave souza, talk 20:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Having had another look at the two sections, I think they do a pretty good job of briefly covering the points relating to Darwin and his reputation while referring to the main articles for other aspects and references: note that in Wikipedia:Summary style#Citations and external links it's not appropriate to cite authorities in a paragraph summarising aspects of a detailed main article. As you'll have noticed, this is the main article about Darwin with links to articles covering his detailed biography, and as a main article should outline significant points. There's a case for changing the Main article links to the Detai template, giving For more details on this topic, see. Any objections to that change? ... dave souza, talk 18:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The infobox seems to be broken (see birth and death dates). I don't know how to fix it, will someone else please? Shot... Mikker (...) 00:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 18:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
It's a minor point to most, but I'm personally interested in the relationship between neurological characteristics and genius, and I would like to know if there is evidence of the handedness of Darwin (left, right, ambidextrous), and if so what is that evidence.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.133.226 ( talk • contribs) 15:27, 21 October 2006
I'm changing his nationality in the side bar to British, since it's more accurate. I don't think English is an official nationality and the flag beside it is the union jack; the flag of the United Kingdom. Ironcorona 01:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
While the current feature is very in-depth and I admire the research and writing invested, I think it could be greatly enhanced if it were structured a bit differently. In its current form, this feature seems to be written more for scholars than the average person. Wikipedia is for EVERYONE, right? Personally, I'd like to see this feature follow a more accessible format that distinguishes between, e.g., "In a Nutshell" (summary) and "in-depth notes for scholars" (details for those who want them).
In other words, not everyone wants to sift through every aspect of the Darwin's life to get the essential stuff. Often times people access Wikipedia for a very quick "primer." In its current form, this feature is not conducive to that type of accessibility and efficient access. Seems to me the first couple paragraphs of the feature should read something like this (some info paraphrased from lucidcafe.com):
In a Nutshell
Charles Robert Darwin was born on February 12, 1809 in Shrewsbury, England. He was a British naturalist who became famous for his theories of evolution and natural selection. Like several scientists before him, Darwin believed all the life on earth evolved (developed gradually) over millions of years from a few common ancestors. Darwin is credited for these theories: 1) evolution did occur; 2) evolutionary change was gradual, requiring thousands to millions of years; 3) the primary mechanism for evolution was a process called natural selection; and 4) the millions of species alive today arose from a single original life form through a branching process called "speciation."
Furthermore, Darwin's "theory of evolutionary" selection holds that variation within species occurs randomly and that the survival or extinction of each organism is determined by that organism's ability to adapt to its environment. He set these theories forth in his book called, On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life (1859) or "The Origin of Species" for short. After publication of Origin of Species, Darwin continued to write on botany, geology, and zoology until his death in 1882. He is buried in Westminster Abbey."
In Depth
Blah blah blah blah blah
I would like to know what others think of this format.
Mark
I've removed "was made a Fellow of the Royal Society," from the lead as it was positioned to imply that this followed from publication of The Origin. Desmond and Moore note that Darwin was elected FRS on 24 January 1839, long before he revealed his thoughts about transmutation. ... dave souza, talk 22:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
With the levels of vandalism directed at this article, I've requested semiprotection. CMacMillan 19:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
I cannot believe that Descent with modification is never mentioned, that it what Darwin had stated which later on became known has evolution. The phrase Descent with modification truely deserves some mention. (SND)
I agree completely. According to my science textbook, Darwin didn't even use the term evolution until the very end of The Origin of Species. Throughout the whole book, Darwin used the term "descent with modification." TheDapperDan 12:50, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
To get this up to featured-article standard, which requires 'brilliant' prose, will require substantial work. I'm going through it, making numerous edits; these include changes to the paragraphing. Unfortunately, where this occurs, the track changes don't work, which means that my edits will need to be compared line-by-line with the previous version.
May I put in a plea that the low-value links to years be left unlinked for readability, and to avoid diluting the high-value, topic-focused links? If people feel strongly about leaving them linked, please try the unlinked version for a while; I'll relink if there's overwhelming support for it. Tony 05:10, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Dave, have a look at Australia and the United States, both of which are still quite densely linked after the low-value years were delinked. Much nicer, IMHO. I want to direct readers to high-value links; when there's a sea of them, they'll tend to ignore them. Tony 01:49, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
The main reason for linking dates is so that preferences will work 11 September 2005; September 11, 2005; 2005 September 11 - this applies also when no year is present, but linking years alone (or year and month) is of little value.-- JimWae 02:03, 2005 September 10 (UTC)
Shouldn't a pic of Darwin with a beard be in the lead, since that's his most famous image? Borisblue 01:09, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm of the opinion we should keep the less familiar picture, particularly as there's one with a beard further down the page. After all, why should this article look like every single other article ever written about Darwin? Garik 13:34, 29 April 2006.
Ironcorona 10:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
The first sentence states "[Darwin].... who achieved lasting fame as originator of the theory of evolution through natural and sexual selection." However sexual selection is a subset of natural selection as it states in that article: "Natural selection can be subdivided into two types: (i) ecological selection, ... and (ii) sexual selection"
I cannot see how this can stand, and the only options to solve this problem would be to either,
I would strongly support the latter option. Majts 23:49, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
As there have been no further commments I am removing "sexual selection" from the opening sentence.
Majts
05:51, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
I was very tempted to add an "NPOV" notice to the top of this page after briefly skimming through it, but then I saw that the main issues were just with the image captions; the actual article text is quite good. My problem is that a lot of the image text is worded is unencyclopedically redundant or poetic. "a year before the sudden, tragic loss of his mother." would make just as much sense without "tragic" (it would be tragic in any situation, so stating so is redundant and comes across as telling readers how to feel about X event). "The devoted father Charles Darwin" is, again, a bit too fluffy for my taste; aren't most fathers devoted? Not being devoted to your children is more noteworthy, I'd think. If there's a source stating that he was a devoted father (or better yet, detailing some event that would show he's a devoted father to most readers: it's always better to show or demonstrate a judgment call than to just state it), it would make a better addition to the rather short and list-ish "Marriage and children" section. "an eminent sage" also seems a bit much, especially since "eminent" and "pre-eminent" are repeated six times in the article, including thrice in image captions. Also, captions like "Charles Darwin was revered by many as a great thinker" are both POVed and too generic; information about specific ways he influenced later thought would be more useful and informative. Hitler's been revered by many as a great thinker, too; things need to be in their proper context to avoid confusion. - Silence 07:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
I too almost removed the link when I first saw it, but after reconsidering it, I actually think that linking to theory is a pretty damned good idea. One of the most common arguments against the theory of evolution is that "it's just a theory", which shows that a huge number of laypeople have no understanding at all of what the word "theory" means in science. A lot of confusion can be avoided by linking to a page which makes it very clear what a "theory" is, especially since most of the rest of the article, and of the entire Darwin series of articles, discusses his discoveries using the exact word "theory"; "development of theory", "inception of theory", "publication of theory", etc. I'm opposed to excessive linking (as can be seen by my unlinking a number of redundant or unnecessary links in my edits, and clarifying others), but we must also remember to state the obvious sometimes. Or in this case, link the obvious—even better because it requires no extra text! - Silence 00:56, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
While the whole passage about Old Testament inaccuracies is excellent, it's already quoted in full in Charles Darwin's views on religion with some explanation. A brief statement would be more appropriate here, so I've tried to summarise the main points. Regarding rephrasing of the first paragraph, Desmond states that "on calm days Darwin's plankton-filled tow-net left him wondering why beautiful creatures teemed in the ocean's vastness, where no human could appreciate them." and "But nature had its own evils, and Darwin always remembered with a shudder the parasitic ichneumon wasp, which stored caterpillars to be eaten alive by its grubs. He would later consider this evidence against the beneficent design of nature.", but doesn't relate the first point to Paley's optimistic views. (Brittanica, there's more detail in Desmond and Moore's book). Another point to think about is the Later life and death heading for the earlier section: there's a tendency to dismiss his post-Origin work which this hints at, and something like Further work could put the period more positively... dave souza 23:54, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it is very notable that Darwin and his son Francis are credited with the discovery of plant auxins (plant growth hormones). Would there be interest in adding this to the article? - LouieS 05:54, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
I have tried to improve this article. I hope it will soon be good enough to be featured. Please will other Wikipedians go through my attempted improvements carefully. I'm only human. Barbara Shack 19:22, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
When this article is nominated for Featured Article status, I highly suspect that the main problem that people will use to justify "object" votes will be deficiencies in Charles Darwin's sub-articles. A Featured Article is expected to not only be high-quality in its own writing, but also to be at least be good-quality in all of the text of its series of pages, not just the text on the main page. This article's come a long way, but I think we should start to seriously focus (not that some haven't already "seriously focused", there's been some great work put into the sub-articles too) on the sub-pages to bring them closer to the quality of Charles Darwin itself. Comments, agreements, disagreements? - Silence 22:00, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I stated that Darwin was a blasphemer, and to the definition, would that not be correct?
No, because there are many Christians who believe that Darwin's evolution theory is merely an extension of "God's will". Also your labeling of him as a blasphemer is a POV. Olorin28 03:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
"No, you are wrong. If you take a poll right now randomly in the world, i doubt that even 5 percent support what you are saying. Your 65 percent is completely made up and false"
"...i doubt that even 5 percent support what you are saying." Isn't that your OWN view that only 5% support my view? You can't use that against the fact that 65% of the world is a religion that DOES believe in creation.
"...If you take a poll right now randomly in the world..."
go ahead, make sure you get EVERYONE.
I also emailed the whitehouse, so if they reply, that would be a pretty notable person.
What? Jesus Christ called Darwin a blasphemer? Darwin wasn't even born when Jesus Christ died. By the way, I am pretty sure that the White House won't reply. It is NOT a religious institute anyway, and it will cause a political furor. Olorin28 13:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I congradulate everyone for contributing, very good. By the way Darwin lived over 1,800 years after Christ, I think the person meant to say "the bible" refers to Darwin as being a blasphemer.
That's the most bizarre use of a bible verse on the way that no man can truly know another person's motivations as that person knows himself (and then going on to say that similarly, we can't know why God does things at times) I have ever seen. Adam Cuerden talk 22:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't say he was a ‘douche bag’ in fact he was a man with a realistic vision, away from religion which has such primitive beliefs. I would say that in humanity religion has gotten mankind nowhere only to be constantly (if not subconsciously) afraid of going to hell. There is such thing as having personal spirituality like Buddhism, mastering Yoga ect. The problem is that religion is nothing more than a group organization telling you what to believe. We are in the 21st century and despite computers, modern buildings, advanced technology (ie. NASA) about 80% of the world still needs to believe in something neither physically explained nor proven fact.
As to evolution most outsiders to science ignore physical evidence staring them in the face such as how man obviously evolved from lesser forms of animals. Despite Darwin's critics he said that he didn't care if he evolved from apes, he liked all forms of life connected as a whole. I think people are afraid of the idea that animals change and so does man (physically and technologically). Darwin is not to be confused with Albert Einstein, he was simply a man with a sense of exploration.-- King of the Dancehall 17:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
The expansion of Darwinism to social Darwinism was invented through the works of Herbert Spencer. Herbert Spencer’s “understanding included the Lamarckian theory of inheritance of acquired characteristics and emphasized the direct influence of external agencies on the organism’s development. He denied (as Darwin had argued) that evolution was based on the characteristics and development of the organism itself and on a simple principle of natural selection.”( http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/spencer.htm) Spencer, not Darwin, emphasized the competitive nature of a species and coined the term ‘survival of the fittest.’ Furthermore, Spencer extended his theory into human social behavior and that “specialization led to self-sufficiency and individuation”( http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/spencer.htm) His principles were further mangled to justify to the Nazi ‘breeding program’ and other eugenic forms of oppression. Spencer, not Darwin, defined society as “an aggregate of individuals, and change in society could take place only once individual members of that society had changed and developed. Individuals are ‘primary,’ individual development was ‘egotistic,’ and associations with others largely instrumental and contractual. ” ( http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/spencer.htm#H5)
I would hardly call Geoff Price's stuff original research. Besides, it has citations, people can go and check them. The fact is that he makes a compelling argument. - FrancisTyers · 15:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I've edited the article to remove references to evolution as a "theory." Evolution is not a theory - it is an observation (true or false) that, if true, must somehow be explained. That is, evolution (in Darwin's sense of 'descent with modification') is an explanandum (something that needs to be explained), it is not itself an explanation (an explanans). See Gould's essay "Evolution as fact and theory" at http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html. NOTE: creationists and those who believe in intelligent design (ID) and whatnot should not be upset with this change. ID is a theory (just like it's rival, natural selection) meant to explain evolution. Mikkerpikker 21:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Excerpt from Gould's essay: "In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"—part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus creationists can (and do) argue: evolution is "only" a theory, and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is less than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? ... Evolutionists have been clear about this distinction between fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory—natural selection—to explain the mechanism of evolution. He wrote in The Descent of Man: "I had two distinct objects in view; firstly, to show that species had not been separately created, and secondly, that natural selection had been the chief agent of change. . . . Hence if I have erred in . . . having exaggerated its [natural selection's] power . . . I have at least, as I hope, done good service in aiding to overthrow the dogma of separate creations." Mikkerpikker 21:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Congrats to Mikkerpikker on a job well done. The difference between the useage of the word "evolution" to mean the fact and its useage to mean the theory is subtle but important. WAS 4.250 09:44, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Do you think we are originally from primates?
This is minor but is there any specific reason why there are external links under "Works"? Wouldn't it make more sense to list Darwin's publications under Works and then put the external links to electronic copies of these under "External links"?? No big deal, just wondering... Mikkerpikker 15:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I have to agree with what JPotter said in his point that evolution is most certainly a theory and not a fact. To call something a Fact it must be 100% true, and in the case of Science, able to make accuate predictions. This is not the case with Evolution, for we cannot be sure that it describes accurately the natural history of this planet.
The introduction should be changed from Fact to Theory
A piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred. A statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened. An event known to have happened or something known to have existed. A concept whose truth can be proved. And it also says that "scientific hypotheses are not facts" RossNixon 06:44, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Science cannot verify information in the Popperian sense. It can only falsify. Thus in science fact refers to something with widespread empirical support, which has survived all meaningful critiques. Indeed, by the wordweb definition there is no such thing as a 'fact' as we know it, since we can only falsify rather then prove. If you feel that science itself cannot prove facts then that is a legitimate epistemological position, but this page is not the place to start such an interpretation. I'd suggest discussing the matter on the science portral to see what they think if you feel strongly about it. -- Davril2020 10:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Clearly Lord Monboddo stated the principles of evolution 75 years earlier. is there any knowledge that darwin read monboddo's work? they both lived in edinburgh for significant lengths of time. Anlace 21:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Gravity is a theory too...
Currently the first sentence reads:
Charles Robert Darwin ( February 12, 1809 – April 19, 1882) was a British naturalist who achieved lasting fame by establishing the fact of evolution and proposing the scientific theory that this could be explained through natural and sexual selection.
I honestly quite like it the way it is and think it is perfecly NPOV but I have a feeling keeping it this way will result in a perpetual edit war with the Great Unwashed who do not understand evolution. Perhaps we can soften the "establishing the fact of evolution" part to avoid this? Suggestion:
Charles Robert Darwin ( February 12, 1809 – April 19, 1882) was a British naturalist who achieved lasting fame by providing the first detailed evidence for the fact of evolution and proposing the scientific theory that this could be explained through natural and sexual selection.
Please let me know what you think of this suggestion... Mikkerpikker 20:19, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Charles Robert Darwin ( February 12, 1809 – April 19, 1882) was a British naturalist who achieved lasting fame by providing the first detailed evidence for the occurrence of evolution and proposing the scientific theory that this could be explained through natural and sexual selection.
Mikkerpikker 22:42, 13 Janu»ary 2006 (UTC)
I do prefer the suggestion of jackofoz. Anythings better than saying he "established the fact of evolution" or using the word fact anywhere in the intro. Sounds a bit unpro - A. Simms
Charles Robert Darwin ( February 12, 1809 – April 19, 1882) was a British naturalist who achieved lasting fame by convincing the scientific community of the occurrence(/existence) of evolution and proposing the theory that this could be explained through natural and sexual selection.
?? Mikkerpikker 14:36, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, perhaps, but for a long time before Darwin there were many convinced Lamarckians etc. that did not doubt some form of evolution. Fawcett5 18:03, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I added a section to the talk page for "Intelligent Design" that provides some historical context that might be relevant here. (There the title is "Pre-Darwinian Ripostes," althought it could easily be adapted to help lay the foundations for a section that goes into greater detail as to why Darwin's ideas fit the demands of the time.) We're currently debating what to do with it. If you feel strongly, please add your comments. -- JTBurman 00:58, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I think this an excellent article and it seems to me the only thing preventing it from being featured is lack of references (see WP:WIAFA & WP:V). Is it possible for those who wrote the article or know where to info comes from to add refs? Mikkerpikker ... 11:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
How about replacing the first image ( Image:Charles_Darwin_1881.jpg) with Image:Charles Darwin by Julia Margaret Cameron.jpg from commons? Reasons:
Comments welcome! Mikkerpikker ... 18:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
We discussed this before, and that particular picture which is already used under Evolution by natural selection has a worried look that fits well with the caption "fearing both religious and scientific criticism". In my opinion a bearded picture at the top is fine, but if we must promote one of these beardless pictures to the top, my preference is for Image:Charles Darwin by G. Richmond.jpg which shows him at the time he was first putting together his theory. Please continue the search for a better picture. ... dave souza, talk 23:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm probably walking into a landmine on this but here's my proposed introduction:
What I've done: 1. De-emphasize sexual selection. I know, Darwin loved it like a baby, but it's not what gave him lasting fame -- almost all of his contemporaries dismissed it outright without much consideration. 2. He didn't really "convince" the entire community outright, but he did marshall compelling evidence for it and really move it into the realm of serious discussion. This is pretty significant and deserves being mentioned but "convinced" is just historically inaccurate. 3. Removed the "central explanatory paradigm" stuff. I don't think the sentence is necessary and I think that the connection between the modern evolutionary synthesis and the theories Darwin proposed is still a little too far removed to simply say that his theory is now the central paradigm in biology. But I'm completely willing to defer to a biologist on this issue (less so on the others, which are historical issues).
Now, let's try to do this without some big discussion about creationism, eh? ;-) I'm perfectly happy with alternative wordings (I am not much of a wordsmith) but the two things I am trying in particular to correct is 1. too much success/fame being attributed to sexual selection (just not true, in his time; even today it is not taken nearly as seriously as natural/ecological selection) and 2. try to avoid overstating the effect on the community. In fact, the part in the intro in which it says his book established natural selection as the most common scientific explanation is probably the closest to the truth -- which is not the same thing as convincing the scientific community, which implies a somewhat higher degree of effect to my ears. -- Fastfission 04:04, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Mikker ... 21:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't yet know how to make this it's own section... The article states under EARLY LIFE: When exams began to loom Darwin focused more on his studies and received private tuition from Henslow.
Did he receive private lessons? I doubt he received tuition..but I might be wrong. Anyone? (unsigned comment by 68.249.6.220, moved to foot of page by dave souza, talk 09:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC))
Do we have a source to justify that category here? JoshuaZ
It is my understanding that Erasmus Darwin (Chales' grandfather) had written a book called Zoonomia in verse of which Origin adds little. IT is also my understanding that the following reference works uphold this view.
With such an extensive article it is hard to know where such information fits as it may cause local contradictions within the text. These would need to be eased to reflect this "new" information.
Ideas? -- Lord Matt 18:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
There was a discussion a while back in the archive about whether Darwin was vegetarian after someone added that category. I've worked on the vegetarian tag in the past so I did some research. The answer seems to be a definite no. I've read much of the Voyage of the Beagle and he ate various kinds of meat enthusiastically, without mention of any reservations. I have found that later in his life he ate a restricted diet but one that did include meat. I have been unable to find any sources that indicate that Darwin was vegetarian or even close for any period of time. Many of his writings have indicated a humanity and a kinship towards animals (after all, he developed the theory of natural selection), and he has also spoken to the need for reform (although not abolition) of vivisection, so perhaps these passages mislead some people to thinking he was also vegetarian. I think mainly a lot of the "famous vegetarians" lists get copied around and compiled and end up with inaccuracies, just as other "famous X people" lists do. NTK 23:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I tried setting up an infobox with some details about Darwin yesterday, but the change was reverted almost straight away, the reason given by Duncharris was "oh dear that is foul". I tried to discuss it with Duncharris but I didn't get anywhere, so I'm bringing the discussion here.
I think infoboxes play an important part in most articles, among other things they act as a quick reference to the casual reader where important information about the person, place, company, etc can be obtained without trawling the article. I also think the infobox would look much better in place of just a floating image. The FA Carl Friedrich Gauss uses the infobox I used for Darwin and a few days ago I placed the same infobox at Nikola Tesla which seems to be going fine. Any feedback would be appreciated. -- darkliight talk 11:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
It's not clear that it's notable. The Charles Darwin School in Biggin Hill website doesn't seem to say anything about Charles or why the school got the name, but amusingly the house names of Grant, Lyell, Henslow and Wedgwood sound rather familiar. .. dave souza, talk 21:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Charles Darwin School was given its name as a result of being the closest 'new' secondary school to Down House. It's about 2 miles away, or thereabouts. I was a pupil there between 1993 and 2000, and when I first attended, the school's logo was the Darwin family crest (it was a shield with their motto underneath it in Latin). All blazer badges were in this form and all school literature (newsletters etc) were sent out with it on. In around 1994-1995 the logo was changed to a stylised version of the letters "C" and "D". My own opinion of this was that it was a retrograde step :-)
The House names are an addition that has only happened in the years since I left.
I agree it is disappointing that the school that takes its name from Darwin does not have a page that summarises what he did, and some information or photos from Down House. 16/November/2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.2.67.10 ( talk • contribs) 10:14, 16 November 2006
The URL of the Darwin Correspondence Project, which is linked from this page, has changed, and is now < http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk>. The old URL will continue to work for a while. I am not editing the URL myself, since I work for the Project, and understand that I should not add URLs of organisations I work for. Eadp 11:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
This link should be included in the Con section...
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.67.20.74 ( talk • contribs) .
Darwin was quite a below average student, and unequipped to formulate such a bold theory as he did. He was a naturalist, but lacked the necessary tools (science, mathematics, etc.) to really understand what he was talking about. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chicken Soup ( talk • contribs) . who clearly doesn't know what he, she or it is talking about. RTFA. ... dave souza, talk 19:09, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The phrase "their relatives appeared to Darwin to be "savages," little above animals." is a little awkward, due to the "little above animals" part. From an anthropological standpoint, savages were not considered to be "little above animals", like we see them in common culture and media, but simply less sophisticated, less evolved. In sociocultural evolution and evolutionism, there were considered to be three stages of evolution of society; 1) Savagery, 2) Religious, and 3) Positivist. Therefore I feel like the ending of the sentence was inappropriate. retinarow 4:13, 10 May 2006 (EST)
In the fourth paragraph it is stated: "In recognition of Darwin's pre-eminence, he was buried in Westminster Abbey, close to William Herschel and Isaac Newton." But, in the article on William Herschel it reports that he (Herschel) was buried in St. Laurence's Church in Upton. Which is correct?
I have added a similar note to the Herschel article's discussion page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.69.105.44 ( talk • contribs) .
From a discussion at Talk:Evolution#Footers?, it seems to work pretty well to make See also the last section, so that the infoboxes come under that heading in the index rather than following on from external links. So this is something I'll try changing here, hope there are no objections. .. dave souza, talk 20:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to Curtis Clark for reverting a vandal: fwiw this list confirms that Darwin was ranked #16 on Michael H. Hart's list of the most influential figures in history, though they don't credit him with being agnostic. .. dave souza, talk 05:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that it would greatly help the article if someone were to add a map of the five year voyage of the HMS Beagle. In other words a map of all the ports and locations of intrest that the ship visited during the five year journey.-- Pfc Ender 21:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Why repeated images are better? -- Jclerman 20:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
(I'm new to Wikipedia - so if the length of my comment here is unusual, please forgive me)
Mankind, as we know it, is marked by distinctions, some more immediately apparent than others. Race (= ethnicity?) is a complicated question. Specifically, it is not easy to pinpoint any person's race on the basis of photographs, or literary evidence (the latter especially when derived from a time where race theory was far different than it is now, or did not exist). In some churches in Poland (so I've read in a German book), Jesus was shown with blue eyes. In one American movie (I think it was American anyway), he was shown with black skin. These obviously contradictory representations merely illustrate that race is often a matter of identity, and in the case where peoples mix, often the race of either the mother or the father decides what race the child will identify himself with, or be deemed by his community to belong to. Some years ago I visited a natural history museum in Edinburgh which declared that there were three races of man. Kant said there are four. Others create races at will - in phrases like "our great island race" or "Jewish race" etc.. Hence, I suggest that the concept of race, as used commonly, is not in keeping with honest scientific straightforwardness. It is also accepted that skin colour does not automatically fix a person's race. (there are additional factors such as eye colour, hair, skull shape etc., or so I understand, not being a anthropologist myself)
Now let's return to the line (under discussion here) from the article (on Charles Darwin, on Wikipedia):
"He learned taxidermy from John Edmonstone, a freed black slave who told him exciting tales of the South American rainforest."Italic text
I had earlier changed this to "He learned taxidermy from John Edmonstone, a freed South American slave who told him exciting tales of the South American rainforest."
This was challenged and reverted.
Today, I changed it again - deleting the word "black".
What does the word "black" here mean? That the person (if something described by just its colour can still be accorded the dignity of human identity) had black skin all over? Or that he belonged to the negroid race? Can we be sure that he indeed was a pure-blooded negroid? Does it make any difference to our perception of him as one who inspired Darwin with stories? I usually avoid using the word "racist" as I think it has meanings beyond what it really should. (similar to democracy, holocaust, Bosnia, terrorist etc.) However, making a reference to his skin colour here is just that - racist. Actually, it's not even racist - it's just petty, and slightly insulting.
What next? In a similar vein, we might have the Wikipedia article on Schopenhauer which states "Schopenhauer, a white Pole, indicated that he was influenced by Kant, a white philosopher, and Buddha, a brown prince." Or the brown crown prince, as he hadn't inherited when he left his father's kingdom behind.
I'm certain there are occasions when a person's skin colour, or race if you will, need to be pointed out. For example, if a certain medical drug causes different reactions based on a person's genetics. Or if a dark skinned person is being photographed - perhaps more light is needed, as compared to when a fair skinned person is the subject. Or commandos with dark skin might be chosen for a covert mission in Ghana, where those with fair skin might stand out. Or in museums of ethnology, where the actual race is defined. And numerous other such situations. But these are far from commonplace.
Everytime we use pejorative words like black, white, brown, kook, eyetie, commie, chink etc. to refer to a human being, we reinforce an image of him which uses his skin colour, race, nationality, religion, political views etc. as his defining attribute. We strip him of his dreams, songs, poetry, ability to make us laugh and think and love - all that makes him human.
86.139.89.42 21:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)SM, UK. 2225h BST, 31 July 2k+6
How am I being offensive? I'm asking for people to be treated as human beings and not labelled as colours! But I don't really care about your personal opinion of me, so I won't dwell on it further. Regarding what you mention about the acceptability of the term "black" to refer to a person - that's the NAACP's point of view. Or that of its head. Good for him, or her. However, if I truly am in a minority of one, and everyone else is on board - that's fine with me. My views shall remain the same, but I'm happy to respect the verdict of the masses, and shall abstain from further attempts to remove the reference to Mr. Edmonstone's skin colour.
May I respectfully raise two questions:
1. Are we to specify the race of everyone on wikipedia? Or only that of those called "blacks"?
2. What terms are used for describing those who are neither "white" nor "black"?
172.206.198.175 21:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)SM 2240 BST Friday August 04
The context here is that we learn something of Darwin’s character. Most of Darwin’s contemporaries would have regarded a black man and a former slave, as at best socially inferior, at worst as sub-human. Certainly within Darwin’s social class and maybe even acquaintances there would have been many who were former slave owners, or families who’s fortune was based on the slave trade. That Darwin was willing to take instruction from a black man and a former slave, and indeed pay for it, shows us something about Darwin. It does not reflect at all on Edmonstone. As for the term being pejorative, I don’t believe that it is regarded as such. If there is a better term for describing the gentleman’s skin colour, fair enough, let’s have it. But ignoring the fact that Edmonstone was black reduces our understanding of Darwin, and does nothing for Edmonstone. -- Michael Johnson 12:50, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I said that the comment was "offensive" because you basically accused other editors of being racists and of putting racist slurs on an article. Whatever your personal feeling about the value of racial/ethnic labels (it is not obvious that pretending that ethnic/racial distinctions do not exist actually imrpoves anything; groups like the NAACP are aware that pretending they are going to be treated just like everyone else, and do not have their own community issues to deal with, is neither a realistic appraisal or a road to improvement), you should not slip into hyperbolistic comments where you say that "white" and "black" are the equivalent to "chink", a highly offensive term, unless you do not want to be taken seriously. --
Fastfission
22:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry you read an accusation into what was intended to suggest, and I apologize if I was offensive. I believe that words are central to the way we perceive our world in the first place, and (re-)interpret it in the second. You're right - my edits were fuelled as a personal non-state-funded campaign against the usage of the words "black", "white" and many such others to refer to human beings. The techincal racial terms are (obviously) fine. Skin may be black! The extension from skin to person is the sort of linguistic short cut which I object to, for it tends to shape how we think - in addition to the far more intuitive flow of our thinking influencing words we choose.
172.216.225.3
00:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC) SM 0047h BST Sun
I must have missed Michael Johnson's post earlier - hence this late reply. > If there is a better term for describing the gentleman’s skin colour, fair enough, let’s have it. > But ignoring the fact that Edmonstone was black reduces our understanding of Darwin, and does nothing for Edmonstone.
The gentleman's skin colour might well be perfectly described by the word "black". However, I don't think the word describes the gentleman himself. To repeat, I have no hassle with a person's _race_ being pointed out, where relevant (and it has been highlighted as relevant here). The word "negroid" describes a race; "black" does not.
86.139.90.162 19:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC) SM
Do we want an infobox? We've had the discussion before and decided against it, I figured it would be worth raising again since someone has added one to the page without asking. There is no mandate to include infoboxes in articles, it is usually decided on an article-by-article basis.
My biggest problem with infoboxes is that I think they look silly (a subjective, aesthetic judgment, no doubt, but I find trying to fit complex people into little boxes of vital data a silly and ultimately worthless endeavor for an encyclopedia), and that they contain lots of information which is not actually useful to 90% of the people who would read an article, and in any case most of the information is highly redundant (appears elsewhere in the article in easy-to-find places).
As an example of this, the list of Darwin's children appears now twice in the article, and his birth and death dates, along with his nationality and profession and what he is most known for, are now repeated within inches of each other at the top of the article. Most of the other information seems unlikely to be of much interest to the causal reader (his alma mater, his place of birth).
I think the article is fine without it, but I'm willing of course to defer to consensus. -- Fastfission 22:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I dislike the box, it is too long.-- Peta 12:21, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
From the Darwin page:
"Darwin....though he still believed that God was the ultimate lawgiver."
We know this claim is without any merit whatsoever, and wholly counterfactual. Dennett calls the Darwinian paradigm: "Darwin's inversion" (1995:66). That inversion says matter caused Mind which is diametrically contraposition to the Genesis creation model of Mind causing matter. Therefore, no Mind exists to give laws. Descent (1871, chp.3, Conclusion) clearly relates Darwin's heresy.
The above claim needs scholarly support. Since we know none exists, the writer slips in his or her bias based on a psychological need of distancing Darwin from atheism.
Ray Martinez 8-14-06
Darwin forsook theism prior to the summer of 1837. Notebook B page 36 contains the first sketch of an evolutionary tree of life (Genesis Deity rejected). In 1838 he admitted to being a Materialist (atheist). Since you ignored other content in initial message and will probably continue to do so, the evasions are indicative of the inability to refute. Since the Bible plainly shows persons who think of themselves as theists (Pharisees) while opposing Christ (and thus the work of God) the identification of Darwin as a theist (while opposing the Bible via his theories) is supported in this light and context. IOW, nothing new...."theists" still think they are as such while opposing God/Christ/Bible.
Ray Martinez 8-14-06
CLAIM: Fastfission: ....all biographers of Darwin that I have read attribute his full loss of faith to the death of his daughter...." In any case when he wrote his "Autobiography" he referred to himself as an agnostic, not an atheist
REPLY: Pure fiction evading the bulk of what we know about Darwin. This type of contributor (anonymous, subjective) ignores what I previously wrote (as did the others) and Darwin's undisputed atheistic paradigm. No educated person, much less any scholar, would attach their real name to such a naieve "claim". But in your defense, Dembski made the same unsupported assertion in Intelligent Design (1999).
How could such an informed person like yourself not have read Dr. Janet Browne ?: DARWIN: "I never gave up Christianity until I was forty years of age" (Power of Place, 2002:484). Darwin turned 40 two years prior to the death of Annie in 1851. If your kind takes everthing at face value (like a claim of agnosticism) then I suggest you stay consistent, but like I said anonymous persons have nothing to lose, even though I do realize this is Wikipedia - a public pedia.
REPLY: Darwin called himself an agnostic in regards to a FIRST CAUSE, which means your little diddy is out of context quote mining, very typical of anonymous persons with nothing to lose. Darwin's arguments and theories say he was an atheist since 1837 (Notebook B:36).
"....the main point of Darwin's book was to remove the Creator from nature" (Browne 2002:95).
"Darwin abandoned Christianity in the two years after his return to England....In part this was caused....by his discovery of the invalidity of the argument from design" (Mayr, Growth of Biological Thought 1982:402).
1879, Darwin responded to an inquiry about his religious views and said: "For myself, I do not believe that there ever has been any revelation" (F. Darwin 1905:277).
DARWIN: "Love of the deity effect of organization, oh you materialist!...Why is thought being a secretion of brain, more wonderful than gravity a property of matter?" (Darwin quote from notebook C, written March to June 1838, Browne, Voyaging 1995:373).
In the M notebook (completed in October 1838, Browne 1995:373) Darwin remarks: "To avoid stating how far, I believe, in Materialism...."
In addition, we know that Darwin, after returning home from the Beagle voyage, that is, the years 1836-1839, based on notebook writings had become a [sic] ""materialist" (more or less equivalent to an atheist" (Mayr, One Long Argument 1991:75).
CLAIM: DAVE SOUZA: A source is need for what seems to be your untrue claim that "In 1838 he admitted to being a Materialist (atheist)"
"....your interpretation which is not shared by reputable biographers such as Desmond and Moore."
REPLY: In addition to what is evidenced above, Gould, Ever Since Darwin, (1977:21-27) plainly unfolds Darwin's heretical Materialism with no euphemisms employed. Come on guys....I have only quoted popular scholars....sources that anyone can access.
Context: pre-1839; Desmond & Moore (1991:XVIII): "Clergymen from molluscs! How had he [Darwin] arrived at such damning beliefs? And this was not the worst part. He embraced a terrifying materialism. Only months before he had concluded in his covert notebooks that the human mind, morality, and even belief in God were artefacts of the brain" Then Desmond & Moore quote Darwin's "Love of deity" quote already written above. I could go on and on and on....
I have no intention of editing the page as I would never attach my name to your public grab box. Your lack of confidence in your own worldview and its scientific support tells us everything that we need to know.
Ray Martinez 8-15-06
Dear Fast:
Your commentary is subjective nonsense caused by the inability to refute. All of my claims are supported.
Onlookers: Simply compare what I wrote with source cites and then read others that have virtually none = the Wikipedia way.
Fast: You may have the last word. Your reverse Fundamentalism cannot be penetrated with evidence.
Ray Martinez 8-15-06
Dear Dave:
I honestly never expected you to defend sourceless subjectivity. But like you said, this is Wikipedia. At least you are consistent. My hat is tipped.
Ray
The paragraph is clear but lacks the drastic scope of Darwin's influence and does fully adress his contribution to human civilization. Do you people realize that without Darwin science may have still been shackled by the ideas of creationism? Not only that but his rejection of the fundamental thinking of human origins was the precursor of almost all modern thought. Ask any scientist, scholar and historian and it is DARWIN who is at the cornerstone of all modern science. Without evolution or the ideas he progressed genetics, paleontology, astronomy, and nearly every other scientific pursuit would still be stuck in the 18th century. That's without even taking into effect the ideas of evolution that lead to the future movements of existentialism and other modern movemets in philosophy and art. His contribution to our understanding of the relationship between all living things not only forever changed science but human civilization itself, and the way humans view our place in the world.
REPEAT: HIS IDEAS CHANGED HUMAN CIVILIZATION! R.E.S.P.E.C.T!
talk 07:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The same could be said for Einstein and yet his wiki does him justice and properly address his contribution to the 20th century. Darwin deserves as much. His ideas are more than JUST the cornerstone of biology which they undoubatley are. They have contributed to a fuller understanding of humanity and our place in the world. Could Palentology, anthropolgy etc exist without the idea of evolution put forth in Orgin of Species?
talk 07:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I can't disagree more fully and don't think you're fully grasping the scope of impact "Origin of Species" had. Let me repeat, Darwin is one of the most influential scientists ever, certainly of the last two centuries. His ideas set forth in "Origin of the Species" affected almost every aspect of society. The acceptance of Darwin's theories undermined religious faith in much of the Western world, profoundly affecting literature, art, and society. Easily accepting the profound influence in biology, anthropology, and sociology, his works "Expression of Emotions in Man and Animals," as well as his article, "A biographical sketch of an infant" had a direct effect on American Functionalism, and without functionalism, it is doubtful there would have been a behavioral psychology. Not to forget the impact of "Social Darwinism" on Ruthless Laissez Faire Capitalism. Furthermore, his concept of slow-acting population dynamics, the most important part of his theories, has been applied by scientists such as Edelman and Burnet to other fields.
If you want so-called "principle sources" that attribute "The Origin of Species" and the theory of evolution in particular as one of histories most influential ideas ever, that's easy. Ever heard of James D. Watson, the Nobel laureate and pioneer who discovered the thing we call genes? I suggest you watch this interview with fellow scientist and Harvard professor, Edward Osborne Wilson http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6927851714963534233 in which they agree that Darwin's book, "The Origin of the Species," was the first work to explain nature and man's place in the universe. Basically calling it "easily the most important work of the last two centuries"
David Quammen in his book ORIGINS OF A RELUCTANT GENIUS says: "The ideas he espoused in "The Origin of Species" in 1859 were "profoundly original, and dangerous, and thrilling," Quammen writes, making "Origin" not only one of the most important books about science in the last several centuries, but one of the most important books - period."
And Professor Ellwood in his book THE INFLUENCE OF DARWIN ON SOCIOLOGY, says: "When one reflects upon the immense influence which Darwin's work has had on practically all lines of human thought, and especially on the biological, psychological, and social sciences, one is forced to conclude that Fiske's estimate must be revised, and that Darwin must be given the seat of highest honor as the most fructifying thinker which the nineteenth century produced, not only in England, but in the whole world. And the social significance of Darwin's teachings is even yet only beginning to be apprehended."
ERNST MAYR is one of the towering figures in the history of evolutionary biology and he said "Darwin's accomplishments were so many and so diverse that it is useful to distinguish three fields to which he made major contributions: evolutionary biology; the philosophy of science; and the modern (thought)zeitgeist." For more on Darwin's Influence on Modern Thought: http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/e36_2/darwin_influence.htm
Newsweek calls "Origin of Species" the MOST influential book ever published: www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10118787/site/newsweek/
If you want to do some reading, I recommend just to see how MANY other fields Darwin penetrated then try any of these:
"Influence of Darwin on Philosophy and Other Essays" (by John Dewey)
"Darwin's influence on Freud : a Tale of Two Sciences" (by Lucille B Ritvo)
I think a new opening is needed to address his wide influence and give him is proper respect like the Einstein, Newton pages. talk 07:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Descent of Man. "Origin" starts out very slowly, & "Voyage is best after you already know the later signif. of the trip to him. DGG 07:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I much prefer Desmond and Moore biography, but regardless, if you think Darwin was "behind the times" as you say then I feel like we're never possibly going to be on the same page. Regardless, I feel like I've cited so-called "principle sources"(Nobel laureate) so how about I just make some suggestions to rewording the intro so that it FULLY represents Darwin's scope and influence in ALL fields and get users feedback:
As reference Newton's wiki intro states: "...is generally regarded as one of the greatest scientists and mathematicians in history."
Einstein's wiki intro: "...widely regarded as the most important scientist of the 20th century and one of the greatest physicists of all time."
Shakespears' wiki intro: "... playwright widely regarded as the greatest writer of the English language, as well as one of the greatest in Western literature, and the world's pre-eminent dramatist."
How about(bold are changes):
Charles Robert Darwin (12 February 1809 – 19 April 1882) was an English naturalist who is widely regarded as one of the most influential scientific thinkers of the 19th Century. His ideas about the history and diversity of life - including the evolutionary origin of humankind--contributed to major changes in the sciences, philosophy, social thought and religious belief. His work successfully produced considerable evidence that species originated through evolutionary change, at the same time proposing the scientific theory that natural selection is the mechanism by which such change occurs. This theory is now considered a cornerstone of modern science. His contribution to our understanding of the relationship between all living things has forever changed the way scientists and human civilization itself, views our place in the world
So unless you're saying every-other wiki article needs to be changed to accommodate "hagiography" then we're in for a long haul. talk 07:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
? views ?
Jclerman 11:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
quotation needed for an opinion
Jclerman 11:05, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Why did it send me here? to this talk page?-- 64.12.116.68 14:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
This section was removed by Jrmccall ( talk • contribs) 20:37, 29 September 2006 (UTC) with the comment Removed irrelevant -- and redundant -- section; added ref to - →See Also. There's an argument for saying it's off topic, but on the other hand a brief summary section here makes it clear for people who don't know that. Comments? .. dave souza, talk 20:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Having had another look at the two sections, I think they do a pretty good job of briefly covering the points relating to Darwin and his reputation while referring to the main articles for other aspects and references: note that in Wikipedia:Summary style#Citations and external links it's not appropriate to cite authorities in a paragraph summarising aspects of a detailed main article. As you'll have noticed, this is the main article about Darwin with links to articles covering his detailed biography, and as a main article should outline significant points. There's a case for changing the Main article links to the Detai template, giving For more details on this topic, see. Any objections to that change? ... dave souza, talk 18:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The infobox seems to be broken (see birth and death dates). I don't know how to fix it, will someone else please? Shot... Mikker (...) 00:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 18:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
It's a minor point to most, but I'm personally interested in the relationship between neurological characteristics and genius, and I would like to know if there is evidence of the handedness of Darwin (left, right, ambidextrous), and if so what is that evidence.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.133.226 ( talk • contribs) 15:27, 21 October 2006
I'm changing his nationality in the side bar to British, since it's more accurate. I don't think English is an official nationality and the flag beside it is the union jack; the flag of the United Kingdom. Ironcorona 01:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
While the current feature is very in-depth and I admire the research and writing invested, I think it could be greatly enhanced if it were structured a bit differently. In its current form, this feature seems to be written more for scholars than the average person. Wikipedia is for EVERYONE, right? Personally, I'd like to see this feature follow a more accessible format that distinguishes between, e.g., "In a Nutshell" (summary) and "in-depth notes for scholars" (details for those who want them).
In other words, not everyone wants to sift through every aspect of the Darwin's life to get the essential stuff. Often times people access Wikipedia for a very quick "primer." In its current form, this feature is not conducive to that type of accessibility and efficient access. Seems to me the first couple paragraphs of the feature should read something like this (some info paraphrased from lucidcafe.com):
In a Nutshell
Charles Robert Darwin was born on February 12, 1809 in Shrewsbury, England. He was a British naturalist who became famous for his theories of evolution and natural selection. Like several scientists before him, Darwin believed all the life on earth evolved (developed gradually) over millions of years from a few common ancestors. Darwin is credited for these theories: 1) evolution did occur; 2) evolutionary change was gradual, requiring thousands to millions of years; 3) the primary mechanism for evolution was a process called natural selection; and 4) the millions of species alive today arose from a single original life form through a branching process called "speciation."
Furthermore, Darwin's "theory of evolutionary" selection holds that variation within species occurs randomly and that the survival or extinction of each organism is determined by that organism's ability to adapt to its environment. He set these theories forth in his book called, On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life (1859) or "The Origin of Species" for short. After publication of Origin of Species, Darwin continued to write on botany, geology, and zoology until his death in 1882. He is buried in Westminster Abbey."
In Depth
Blah blah blah blah blah
I would like to know what others think of this format.
Mark
I've removed "was made a Fellow of the Royal Society," from the lead as it was positioned to imply that this followed from publication of The Origin. Desmond and Moore note that Darwin was elected FRS on 24 January 1839, long before he revealed his thoughts about transmutation. ... dave souza, talk 22:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
With the levels of vandalism directed at this article, I've requested semiprotection. CMacMillan 19:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)