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I've not seen a charge of a triple-headed eagle, and certainly not as the article states: "eagle, shown with two heads in the arms of the Holy Roman Empire and sometimes with three heads in the arms of imperial Russia". I believe that this phrase should more accurately read, "eagle, shown with two heads in the arms of the Byzantine, Holy Roman, and Russian empires, as well as of the present Russian Federation".
Others' thoughts? Firstorm ( talk) 14:23, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I have never heard of a triple-headed eagle being attributed to the Russian Empire either. I have, however, seen the curious eagle of Reinmar von Zweter, which appears in the Manesse Codex, and I have recently come across this triple-headed eagle granted to the German town of Waiblingen in 1957, the charge attributed to the dukes of Swabia. I've updated the article accordingly. Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 10:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
A pejorated word is one that has acquired a negative meaning. That doesn't fit here, but I don't know what else can be meant if not "deprecated". — Tamfang ( talk) 06:52, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
So, er, what is the special significance of the escarbuncle? — Tamfang ( talk) 07:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the significance Fox-Davies was pointing to was that while the actual device itself was virtually unknown by his time, the charge based upon its form was very common in heraldry, and very distinct to heraldry. I'll return to the original comment and see if I can clarify that point. Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 11:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
"The label is nearly always a mark of cadency" is not the same as "Cadency nearly always uses labels." (It is not uniquely Gallo-British: it's also used in the royal houses of Italy and Portugal, at least.) If it's not used for cadency in Germany, fine – is it used otherwise in Germany? — Tamfang ( talk) 06:07, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
I've put some work into this article, and it's better than it was, but there is still more work to be done. I need help tracking down sources and providing proper references for the following statements:
Thanks in advance for any help you can lend to this effort. I'd like to see this article go up for GAN, and if these lacking citations can be resolved, it may happen. Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 14:18, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Regarding #1 above, unless someone has the original source and can make an argument why it belongs here, I'm striking the comment. Regarding #2 above, would that be this James Parker? Presumably under the heading "African" or perhaps "Maure" or "Moor"? Does anyone have access to the actual text to verify this? Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 06:53, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Pursuant to boldness, I've stricken #1, #4 and #5, and reworked #2 and #3 according to the references you were able to provide. If anyone feels the urge to reintroduce one of the stricken passages, feel free but please include references. Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 12:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
As the article states, there is some disagreement over the definition of "fret". Some authors define a "fret" as three bendlets interlaced with three counterbendlets, while others reduce it to a bendlet and a counterbendlet interlaced with a mascle. Other authors call that a "Harington knot". While there may be a prevalent urge on Wikipedia to engage in an endless search for precision, the correct answer is that both are "frets", and the latter is also a "Harington knot", and the former is also "fretty", while more than three bendlets (ribbands) and counterbendlets (counterribbands) is unambiguously "fretty". So which one should be pictured in the article? I think the historically prevalent definition (at center below) should be given more weight than the definition preferred in modern heraldry (at right below), which is sufficiently described in the article's prose. Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 04:36, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
is definitely not an 'authority' on Scots heraldry and is very often wrong - e.g. at the time he was saying that in Scotland the mullet is always shown pierced it hadn't been shown that way for really quite some time. It is very unwise to use Fox-Davies in a Scots context! Mich Taylor, 5 June 2010, 9.39 hrs
"The canton is a square occupying the left third of the chief (sometimes reckoned to be a diminutive of the quarter)." This is the wrong shield. It clearly shows a "Quarter" not a canton and is labelled as such in the blazon. Kiltpin ( talk) 14:46, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
The shield shown has a smaller quarter than the canton which is supposed to be smaller than it! The shield that shows the canton is really a quarter and the shield that shows the quarter is less than a quarter. Just look at the pair side by side on your monitor. The shield called canton should become the quarter and a new canton should be sourced. Kiltpin ( talk) 14:52, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
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The "garb" in the arms of Gustav Vasa (and in the Coat of Arms of Sweden) are not a wheatsheaf although pictured in that way during the 16th to 19th century. This "vasa" are some kind of bundle but of unknown sort.
It looks like a stylized Silphium plant. I know this is original research but it looks exactly like it.-- Planetjanet ( talk) 03:13, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
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I've not seen a charge of a triple-headed eagle, and certainly not as the article states: "eagle, shown with two heads in the arms of the Holy Roman Empire and sometimes with three heads in the arms of imperial Russia". I believe that this phrase should more accurately read, "eagle, shown with two heads in the arms of the Byzantine, Holy Roman, and Russian empires, as well as of the present Russian Federation".
Others' thoughts? Firstorm ( talk) 14:23, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
I have never heard of a triple-headed eagle being attributed to the Russian Empire either. I have, however, seen the curious eagle of Reinmar von Zweter, which appears in the Manesse Codex, and I have recently come across this triple-headed eagle granted to the German town of Waiblingen in 1957, the charge attributed to the dukes of Swabia. I've updated the article accordingly. Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 10:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
A pejorated word is one that has acquired a negative meaning. That doesn't fit here, but I don't know what else can be meant if not "deprecated". — Tamfang ( talk) 06:52, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
So, er, what is the special significance of the escarbuncle? — Tamfang ( talk) 07:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the significance Fox-Davies was pointing to was that while the actual device itself was virtually unknown by his time, the charge based upon its form was very common in heraldry, and very distinct to heraldry. I'll return to the original comment and see if I can clarify that point. Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 11:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
"The label is nearly always a mark of cadency" is not the same as "Cadency nearly always uses labels." (It is not uniquely Gallo-British: it's also used in the royal houses of Italy and Portugal, at least.) If it's not used for cadency in Germany, fine – is it used otherwise in Germany? — Tamfang ( talk) 06:07, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
I've put some work into this article, and it's better than it was, but there is still more work to be done. I need help tracking down sources and providing proper references for the following statements:
Thanks in advance for any help you can lend to this effort. I'd like to see this article go up for GAN, and if these lacking citations can be resolved, it may happen. Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 14:18, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Regarding #1 above, unless someone has the original source and can make an argument why it belongs here, I'm striking the comment. Regarding #2 above, would that be this James Parker? Presumably under the heading "African" or perhaps "Maure" or "Moor"? Does anyone have access to the actual text to verify this? Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 06:53, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Pursuant to boldness, I've stricken #1, #4 and #5, and reworked #2 and #3 according to the references you were able to provide. If anyone feels the urge to reintroduce one of the stricken passages, feel free but please include references. Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 12:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
As the article states, there is some disagreement over the definition of "fret". Some authors define a "fret" as three bendlets interlaced with three counterbendlets, while others reduce it to a bendlet and a counterbendlet interlaced with a mascle. Other authors call that a "Harington knot". While there may be a prevalent urge on Wikipedia to engage in an endless search for precision, the correct answer is that both are "frets", and the latter is also a "Harington knot", and the former is also "fretty", while more than three bendlets (ribbands) and counterbendlets (counterribbands) is unambiguously "fretty". So which one should be pictured in the article? I think the historically prevalent definition (at center below) should be given more weight than the definition preferred in modern heraldry (at right below), which is sufficiently described in the article's prose. Wilhelm_meis ( talk) 04:36, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
is definitely not an 'authority' on Scots heraldry and is very often wrong - e.g. at the time he was saying that in Scotland the mullet is always shown pierced it hadn't been shown that way for really quite some time. It is very unwise to use Fox-Davies in a Scots context! Mich Taylor, 5 June 2010, 9.39 hrs
"The canton is a square occupying the left third of the chief (sometimes reckoned to be a diminutive of the quarter)." This is the wrong shield. It clearly shows a "Quarter" not a canton and is labelled as such in the blazon. Kiltpin ( talk) 14:46, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
The shield shown has a smaller quarter than the canton which is supposed to be smaller than it! The shield that shows the canton is really a quarter and the shield that shows the quarter is less than a quarter. Just look at the pair side by side on your monitor. The shield called canton should become the quarter and a new canton should be sourced. Kiltpin ( talk) 14:52, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
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The "garb" in the arms of Gustav Vasa (and in the Coat of Arms of Sweden) are not a wheatsheaf although pictured in that way during the 16th to 19th century. This "vasa" are some kind of bundle but of unknown sort.
It looks like a stylized Silphium plant. I know this is original research but it looks exactly like it.-- Planetjanet ( talk) 03:13, 8 April 2017 (UTC)