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1) Clarified a point on minority treatment by Mataxas (not all minorities were mistreated and the discrimination was along political support lines more than ethnic ones) 2) The article had no mention of the Balli Kombëtar and the role of the Balists in persecuting Greeks and Jews during the occupation. I amended that.
Albanau, if you object to this form of the article, please discuss it here. It is not acceptable, among other things, to refer to provinces of independent countries as though they rightfully belonged to another independent country. Chronographos 15:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
It wasen't me I allways use my account. However Chronographos what you wrote is clearly not NPOV.
Çamëria (or Chameria) is the name sometimes used by Albanians to refer to the Greek province of Epirus. The area probably was home to an ethnic group of Albanian origin and Muslim faith, the Chams. The Chams are believed to have fled to Albania during, and immediately following, World War II, probably because they had been persecuted by Greek Resistance guerilla groups fighting against the Nazi occupation army, on the belief that Chams had cooperated with the Albanian-launched invasion of Greece by the Mussolini fascist regime in 1940, and had continued cooperation with the Nazi occupiers. Greek censuses mention no Muslim presence in Epirus since 1951; they do not include linguistic data.
Albanau 14:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Corrected reference to "under Greek influence" in 4th century. Removed refernce to "Cham Christians". Acerimusdux 17:08, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
An interesting thing about (modern) Greek arguments is that different rules always apply to Greeks and non-Greeks. So, it is unacceptable to use alternative names for territory in other countries? What do Greeks call Istanbul? Constantinople, I think. Or why do Greeks call southern Albania "NOrthern Epirus"? Basically, Greek people need to accept common rules for everyone, rathern than trying to cheat the rest of the world with fake historical arguments.
This artice is a disgrace! There's more POV here than in the Nazi mysticism and Holocaust denial articles put together. There's petty nationalist POV here from the Greek perspective and from the Albanian perspective. This should be remedied as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic Groups Template and above all, RELIABLE SOURCES should be found. You cannot make up things as you go along... Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:09, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
One problem here is whether WikiProject Ethnic Group applies here, as these people are Ethnic Albanians and identify as such. Are there any similar articles on similar minorities which we could copy? Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
To start with, I'm going to move this article to Cham Albanians; it's the best thing to do. Albanian diacritics should not be used in accordance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), and Cham on its own may cause confusion with the Cham people of Eastern Asia. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Well done on improving this article. I was wondering if you could provide more concrete references for some of the figures mentioned in the article, such as the numbers of victims murdered by Zervas's troops and, in particular, the claim that there are 200,000 Chams living in Greece today. -- Damac 22:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
The numbers of the victims of the EDES come from the MOD pdf. I'll copy-paste the relevant parts here soon, but I can't open it now (the computer I'm using now doesn't support PDFs). I'll do it later today. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 14:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't have to - I have added it to the article. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 17:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
inflammatory comments removed at 16:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)]
Telex, please explain why you removed this comment. If not it comes back. Politis 16:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I can understand why you disliked it, but his comments are only targeting the people who contributed. As far as I can tell, there are no attacks against an entire nation but against the Hoxha regime - and in this he echos the voices of millions of Albanians who believe they suffered during those years! Where do you see those attacks? Politis 17:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the link to www.unpo.ee because (a) it does not appear to be the official link to UNPO (that is www.unpo.org) and (b) There is no mention of Cham Albanians in the UNPO website. TheArchon 15:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not an expert on the issue per se but I have done extensive study of British SOE and US OSS activities in the Near East and Balkans during the war.
The long quote from Joseph Jacobs really leads the wikipeida reader astray. This eviction was specifically ordered by British liaison to EDES, Col. Chris Woodhouse, and he says so in his memiors. The British liason was not an advisor but the de facto commander as London and SOE controlled all supply and funds to the EDES resistance. In fact he had been sent to replace Col. Eddie Myers, who London believed was not attacking the Nazi allied Albanian's forcably enough. The British at the time in Balkans were working at cross interests and often in direct opposition to the US OSS work. The OSS was doing things the British did not like, like supporting non Monarchist resistanc groups, helping Jews evacuate to Palestine, etc. Jacobs also was has to be taken with a grain of salt. None of his reporting is actually first hand.
In the Albanian Wikipedia page they say :
The region in the Greek part of the region of Epirus is about 6000 km² (Epirus has 9203 km²).
If you analyse the map in this same Wikipedia you'll see that Cameria outpasses the Thesprotia borders !
So why do you identify Cameria with Thesprotia ? Are the writers in the Albanian Wikipedia all wrong ?
--~April 14th 2008 CUSENZA Mario ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
In order to prevent an edit war, I will open this discussion and ask that users advocating the statements below to please provide any relevant sources:
Although, the massacres that took part in this region (massacre of Paramythia and Chrysi), against the Christian-Orthodox population, had the support of hundreds of Cham militias, no Cham criminal had been brought to trial after WWII, they found refuge behind the Albanian border after retreating together with the Nazi forces at 1944.
If the above statements are true, then they need to be verified as soon as possible. There is no guarantee that unsourced statements will remain in the article for very long. Deucalionite ( talk) 16:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
The massacres that took part in this region (Paramythia and Chrysi) against the Christian-Orthodox population had the support of hundreds of Cham militias. There are no reports of Cham criminals having been brought to trial after World War II. They found refuge behind the Albanian border after retreating together with the Nazis in 1944.
"because of their collaborating activity with the Nazi forces". If there are several hundreds in Elas, how could it be "their collaborating activity". It is generalised. I propose "becouse some of them collaborated with Nazi forces" What do you think? balkanian ( talk) 18:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
This section is geared towards analyzing, scrutinizing, and verifying all in-line citations currently implemented in the article. I will add my recommendations towards improving all references involved.
1) Vickers, Miranda. The Cham Issue - Where to Now? Paper prepared for the British MoD, Defence Academy, 2002.
2) Elsie, Robert. A Dictionary of Albanian Religion, Mythology, and Folk Culture. New York University Press, 2000, ISBN 0814722148, p. 131. "Jelim. Figure of southern Albanian mythology. These giants, Alb. jelim, def. jelimi, from Gk. έλλην 'Greek' with Slavic transmission, were known to the Saranda region. The Çams (of southern Çamëria region) believed themselves to be descended from a race of ancient jelims. cf. M. Lambertz 1973, p. 482; E. Cabej 1974b, p. 204."
3) Mazower, Mark. After The War Was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation and State in Greece, 1943-1960. Princeton University Press, 2000, ISBN 0691058423, p. 25.
4) Vickers, Miranda. The Cham Issue - Albanian National & Property Claims in Greece. Paper prepared for the British MoD, Defence Academy, 2002.
5) Russell King, Nicola Mai, and Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers. The New Albanian Migration. Sussex Academic Press, 2005, ISBN 1903900786, pp. 67 and 87.
6) Kresti, Georgia. The Secret Past of the Greek-Albanian Borderlands. Cham Muslim Albanians: Perspectives on a Conflict over Historical Accountability and Current Rights.
7) Mazower, Mark. After The War Was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation and State in Greece, 1943-1960. Princeton University Press, 2000, ISBN 0691058423, p. 26. "...Elas was opposed to the idea of collective punishment of the Cham community. Several hundred Chams had enlisted in its ranks..."
8) Mazower, Mark. Inside Hitler's Greece: The Experience of Occupation, 1941-44. Yale University Press, 1993, ISBN 0300089236.
9) The Society Farsarotul - Southern Albanian, Northern Epirus: Survey of a Disputed Ethnological Boundary (Tom J. Winnifrith)
10) Vickers, Miranda and Petiffer, James. The Albanian Question. I.B. Tauris, 2007, ISBN 1860649742, p. 238. "In a town such as Igoumenitsa (Albanian Goumenitsa), the Albanian language is still spoken by a minority of inhabitants."
The first citation. I think it is irrelevant. The only statement made by the author about Albanians in Turkey is that "Following their expulsion from Greece, most of the poorer Chams went to Albania, whilst the wealthier ones went to America and Turkey." balkanian ( talk) 20:18, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I have made some changes with references in the article. What do you think? balkanian ( talk) 09:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I think the first version was better. It was concetrated as a lead should be. This one has much more information that would be better to be added in the main part of the article not in the lead. balkanian ( talk) 17:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Also, sentences like this "Chams residing in Albania and abroad retained their language, folk songs, and traditions." seems not quite correct, since chams speak albanian so it is normal that they would retain their language in Albania. balkanian ( talk) 17:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
My proposal is as following for three main reasons: Firstly, this is an article about a certain group of population, so we shopuld include since the begining their characteristics (ex rezidence (for which they are distinguished from other albanians), language and religion. Secondly, we should say where are they today and why were they expelled. Thirdly, the lead should be compact. This is it: "Albanian: Çamë, Greek: Τσάμηδες Tsámidhes) are a group of ethnic Albanians, who originally resided in areas of Epirus that correspond to the modern Greek prefectures of Thesprotia and northern Preveza. Cham Albanians speak the Albanian language and are predominantly Muslim, with a sizable Orthodox Christian minority. After World War II, almost all Muslim Cham Albanians were expelled from their homes in Greece, because some of them[2] collaborated with the Nazi forces, although some provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS.[4] No Cham criminal was ever brought to trial.[3] Nowadays, they live mostly in Albania, while some were sent to Turkey during the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Orthodox Chams remained in Greece, but they have suffered from assimilation and public supression of their Albanian heritage and language.[1]" What do you think? balkanian ( talk) 17:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I think it is still POV. This is my sugestion:"Being discriminated by Greek government, some Chams welcomed Italian and Nazi occupation forces and were involved in massacres against Greeks in areas such as Paramythia and Chrysi, without the aproval of the local beys and muftis ref-Mark Mazower, I will give it later to you the exact citation-ref. When the war was finishing conflicts between EDES and Elas led the former to expel allmost all Chams, leading in tow massacres in their villages and towns. -again referenced with Mazower-" balkanian ( talk) 19:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
The source by Mazower: "The war saw communal relations worsen quickly. In October 1940, the Greek authorities disarmed 1,800 Cham conscriptes and put them to work on lokal road; the following month they seized all Albanian males not called up and deported them to camps or to island exile. Not surprisingly, when the Italians finally took control of mainland Greece in 1941, they found Cham activists willing to call for unification of the region with Albania. Several hundred were conscripted into the anti-communist Bal Komitare (Balli Kombetar, my edit) to act as local gendarmes. From the autum of 1943, these armed bands took part alongside the Wehrmacht in burning Greek villages. Such actions, it seems, were not supported by many of the local beys, nor by the Mufti. By the summer of 1944, it was obvious that a German withdrawal from Epiros was imminent. After the Cham bands turned down a demand from EDES to join it against the left-wing ELAS, EDES`s leader Napoleon Zervas ordered a general atack on the Cham villages. Two atacks took place, in July and August, with the participation of the EDES Tenth Division and local Greek peasants, eager to gain revenge for the burning of their homes: many of the cham villages were burned, and the remaining inhabitants- some 18,000 – fled across the border into Albania.”
Then he speaks for the return of some 4-5 thousand Cham Albanians, when ELAS came into force in Epirus, but after the Varkiza agrement he states:
“They were not slow to turn their attention back to the Chams. Led by Zervas`s former officer, Col. Zotos, a lose paramilitary grouping of the former guerillas and local men wet on a rampage. In the worst massacre, at the town of Filiates on 13 March, some sixty to seventy Chams were killed. The rest fled back across into Albania, leaving just the few families encountered in grim cicumstances by a British United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration worker that summer”
You can read the whole section in Google boks, in this site, pages 25-26. I will change my proposal to another one totally basen on this book a bit later. balkanian ( talk) 15:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
What about this:"Persecuted by the Greek government, several hundred Muslim Chams were also involved in burning Greek villages and massacres against Greeks at Paramythia citation needed and Chrysi citation needed without the approval of the local beys and muftis. After the Muslim Cham bands turned down a demand from EDES to join it against the left-wing ELAS, EDES`s leader Napoleon Zervas ordered a general atack, which lead in massacres, burning of cham villages, and the expelltion of all Muslim Chams across the border into Albania. " I removed that their collaborated with NAZI, because it is in the second paragraph of the lead. balkanian ( talk) 17:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
The sugestion for the whole lead:
Cham Albanians, or Chams (
Albanian: Çamë,
Greek: Τσάμηδες Tsámidhes), are a group of ethnic
Albanians, who originally resided in areas of
Epirus that correspond to the modern Greek prefectures of
Thesprotia and northern
Preveza. Cham Albanians speak the Albanian language and are predominantly
Muslim, with a sizable
Orthodox Christian minority.
"After World War II, almost all Muslim Cham Albanians were expelled from their homes in Greece, because a number of them collaborated with the Axis Powers, [1] although approximately the same amount of muslim Albanians provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS. [2] No Cham criminal was ever brought to trial. [3]
Persecuted by the Greek government, several hundred Muslim Chams were also involved in burning Greek villages and massacres against Greeks at Paramythia citation needed and Chrysi citation needed without the approval of the local beys and muftis. After the Muslim Cham bands turned down a demand from EDES to join it against the left-wing ELAS, EDES`s leader Napoleon Zervas ordered a general atack, which lead in massacres, burning of cham villages, and the expultion of all Muslim Chams across the border into Albania. [4] balkanian ( talk) 17:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
We have to find two things before the final edit. Firstly, references that chams did take part in massacres in paramythia and chrisi from a reliable source. Secondly, it would be better if we have the number of the massacred of both communities. By the way, what do you think about the new structure? balkanian ( talk) 20:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Also, I think we should not remove the "persecuted by the greek government" part. balkanian ( talk) 20:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Good job aboutMazower on Metaxas, it seemed doubious to me too. About Kresti I have her book, soI will bring the exact citation. balkanian ( talk) 06:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I made some changes in the paragraph please take a look. As for the population, you are right, it is better to leave it out of the lead for now. balkanian ( talk) 15:33, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Just so you know balkanian, I actually have a source (Chams by Michael Tritou) that can help us fill in the gaps regarding the Paramythia massacre. Moreover, the book I have also contains some wonderful tidbits on the historical (as opposed to folkloric) origins of the Chams themselves. Unfortunately, the book is only in Greek so I am technically forced to provide a translation for every direct quote I extract.
In case you have doubts about the source's reliability, keep in mind that it is well-referenced, well-written, and is a published work by a professor from the University of Thessaloniki. Long story short, I think this particular work will be the key towards further improving this article.
Full citation:
Τρίτου, Μιχαήλ. Τσάμηδες: Επίμαχο Πρόβλημα Ελλάδος και Ορθόδοξου Εκκλησίας Αλβανίας. Εκδοτικός Οίκος Κυρομάνος: Θεσσαλονίκη, 2003.
By the way, where can we go to verify the reference citations from works by Miranda Vickers? I checked the links in the article and they are currently dead. Deucalionite ( talk) 20:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Just per talk: Is he a reliable source? He seems too strange for me. He says that they become muslims, that does not mean that they become Albanians. He seems to me, like the ones who say that all orthodox population in Albania is Greek. (By the way I am orthodox and no one of my grandparents and great grandparents, did not know Greek). I mean, is a realiable source, somebody that does not make the differences between religion and ethnicity? Per argumentWhat he says is really unhistorical. Go to google books and try to find about the albanians of epirus. Search with "Gjin Bua Shpata", or better his english name "John Spata", or "Peter Losia" and you will see that this orthodox cheiftains were albanians, they were chieftains of Albanian population of Epirus. And we are talking about the 13th century, and not the 16th that Tritou says. So Albanians were there in that time. I will make a new historical section (thats why I added a subsection of Medivial Ages in History section two days before), which will contain the origins of them. After you search in google books, you will see that this population has come on Epirus in Medivial Ages when serbs pushed them in the south. This is the theory of the most historians. SugestionRemove Tritou till we see if he is reliable and not a Greek POV argument (otherwise I will add the Albanian argument that Epirus was Albanian since antiquity), and letstry to add the references of wellknown historians, about their origin. balkanian ( talk) 10:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
By thw way I found the article only in "far-right" Ellinikes Grames [2]. This makes my "just per talk argument" more realistic. balkanian ( talk) 10:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Just per talkThe fact that he is a proffesor does not make him reliable. We need historians, not theologians, (He is a theologian in University of Thesaloniki). But, as I said, we do not need in the article, neither GREEK POV, nor ALBANIAN POV. I could source you tens of Albanian real historians (real but POV pushing historians) that would make Greeks the worsts against chams, or Epirus as 99%Albanian, since the time of Phyrros. That is exactly what we do not need in this article. And I am totally certain that Tritou is one fo them. balkanian ( talk) 10:50, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Nice my friend, I am removing your edits in identity section. After we finish other sections, we will start with history section, and then I will bring you the exact references I mentioned above, about the origins of Chams, muslim and orthodoxes, which you can find in the way I told you above. About Paramythia, for sure he can be added in order to fill gasps. I think that such massacres did actually take place, but I still think that he is a unreliable source. I suggest that when we find another source about the massacres in Paramythia, to remove Tritou. About the ellinikes grames, I did not say that you didnt have the book. I said that his book is used solely by Ellinikes Grames in the web, and that makes him unreliable (just per talk, not wiki argument). Nevertheless, I enjoy our collaboration, but isn`t this a great one, when we do not agree with each other and try to find a consensus? I think this is the best collaboration:-) balkanian ( talk) 12:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Well done, guys. This is a good article with lots of references and it is now neutral. Nicely done!-- Michael X the White ( talk) 13:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Tsourkpk, nice to be with us, please give your opinion and your suggestions for everything you find not acquarate in the article.
Deucalionite I think that we should finish with other sections, before we start with hisotry section, because the last is the most difficult. When we start rewriting the history section, we will find one by one all the references in it. What do you think?
balkanian (
talk)
14:17, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok, guys. What do you think about the article in general, without the history section. Does it need any further information, or is any information doubious? In order to finish the rest and to start with the history section. balkanian ( talk) 20:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I suggest that in the "current issues" section to add only the information about what chams are asking today from the greek and albanian government and their responses. All other info would be more relevant in history section. What do you think? balkanian ( talk) 20:37, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, I was delayed...I am sorry. Publication: Lexicology Centre P.Year: 2002 pg:761-- Michael X the White ( talk) 14:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I think it is fine to write "according to other sources, chams are 40000". However, it is not the same to include that in the infobox, because it ignores other sources (the Greek government). Could the one that made the infobox clarify this, or find other sources to support the 40000? And another thing: where do 70000 and 80000 come for the U.S and Turkey?-- Michael X the White ( talk) 19:29, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
It is a good addition in the article but some people have nothing to do with Chams, for example: Spata, Losha and Zenebishti are total irrelevant. They could be noted as 'Arvanitai' but not Chams.
a. They were born outside Chameria/Tsiamouria
b. They ruled territories outside Chameria /Tsiamouria
c. In that age there was not a single record about Chameria /Tsiamouria or chams/tsiamides, even more if there were albanian speaking populations there (and I mean in the territory of Thesprotia and Preveza prefectures).-- Alexikoua ( talk) 06:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Moreover, there is not an ancestral link. But if there are historical facts that give excact explanation we could have a clear image. In the article Cham history seems to start 1912, there is sure a historical gap between 14th and 20th century Alexikoua ( talk) 16:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
That`s right, because I and Deucalionite have decided to edit in a later time the history section. But, for sure, Cham Albanians did not "born" in 1912. For sure they existed backwards. But, according to Helsinki Monitor Raport, Arvanites of Epirus are part of modern Albanian nation, and commonly (see Vickers) they are called Orthodox Cham Albanians. This means that, even if you add them in Arvanites article, it does not mean that they have no reason to exist in this page. Most of all, according to "History of Albanian People" Albanian Academy of Science. ISBN 9992716231, after the fall of their territory, Shpatas, etc, remained in these territories, so forming the Albanian population of Epirus. This means that they are the anecestors of Arvanites of Epirus (i.e. Orthodox Cham Albanians, see Helsinki raport and Vickers). On the other hand, some of them were converted to Islam, see Jakup Shpata the last despot of Arta, thus being the anescetors of muslim Cham Albanians. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 17:22, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
But you mean that Chams and Arvanites of Epirus were excact the same? and I mean even the Arvanites/Albanians from areas that are not geographically included in Chameria/Tsiamouria? (Ioannina and Arta perf. for example Faik Konica could be a Cham?)
According to my research, the region of Thesprotia, which was called Vachenetia during 14th century, wasnt ruled by Albanian lords. It remained most of the time, part of the Despotate of Ioannina, until the Ottomans occupied Epirus (1430).
As for Jakup Shpata, its really interesting the fact that he was the first despot that joined Islam (he might did that to secure an alliance with ottomans but finally failed). But according to my sources Shpata's relatives didnt not joined Islam (like 'Dimos Bouas' lord of Aggelokastro and Acheloos area ca. 1420 after Spata's death). It was probably a seperate unique action of strategic importance and not a massive convertion to Islam.
According to sources in paramythia-online.gr, massive convertions to Islam in the area occured after the failed revolt of 1611.
The fact that the term Chams and Chameria emerged some centuries later (off course long before 1912), makes things complicated about 'labelling' a personality of the 14th century as Cham.
I believe that the related section in history should be added first (pre 1912), in order to have a more clear view about the past, because some sources seem that contradict eachother. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree to add personalities that were geographically from Thesprotia-Vag(e)netia-Chameria/Tsiamouria region. But this excludes the specidic medieval lords that were from Arta, Delvine, Acheloos, Aggelokastro.
I have found some information about these despots and made additions on related articles. I' ll soon add the related sources. But were these lords called 'Vagnetians', did we know how they called themselves? (according to Greek medieval records they were called 'Arvanitai') It is certain that they married princesses of other nations, in order to legitimate their titles (something usuall for that age)
The term Vahenetia/Vagnetia derives from a slavic tribe that invaded and some of them settled in the area during 500-600 A.D., according to Vasiliev's Byzantine History.-- Alexikoua ( talk) 07:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
(according to Greek medieval records they were called 'Arvanitai')
During this period 'Arvanitai' meant Albanians, and not Arvanites. You know, even Gehg Albanians in Greek mediveal records is called 'Arvanitai'. They could not call themselves Vagnetians, because such a term did not exist to Albanian ethnonym. During this period albanians were called all Arber, or Arvanit, or Albans. for further info see Albanians. So, I think we should add,all those who are from this region, and not them who call themselves "Vagnetians" Balkanian`s word ( talk) 10:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree in this point, to add personalities that are from this region. According to the map cities such as Arta, Delvine, Finiq, Aggelokastro are outside from the region.
I agree also about the use of term 'Arvanitai' in medieval Greek records. Byzantine historians like Michael Attaliates and Anna Comnenus, Niketas Choniates gave usually names to nations that virtually were wrong (according to modern historians). For example the Turks were recorded as Persians, because of the ancient people that lived in the Middle East area. Something similar happened with the Pechenegs, they were recorded as Scythes (the ancient people of the same geographical region). Byzantine records gave (ancient) names to nations, that were total irrelevant with them. There was only the geographical coinsidence. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed some piece of information that can come in handy, especially about the number of the present population. The report is from the International Center for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations. I believe that it is a reliable source, worth the try to mention something of that like:
During the ongoing dispute, each side began to present its own data on the number of Çams: according to the Greek authorities, they were about 80 000 persons, while according to the Albanian authorities their number was about 500 000. The figures cited were absolutely arbitrary, not based on any statistical surveys but rather seeking a suggestive impact.
There is more to look in there.
Sometimes M. Vickers uses one sided only information, not to mention that some of them are total wrong (especially about history, like Thesprotians were an ancient Illyrian tribe, and that there is a clear link between Illyria and Albania when she mentioned that 'the region was populated both by Illyrians and Greeks like today') and some others make you think that her papers (both 2002 and 2007) have nothing to do with a serious report (about collaboration of the Greek government with the Mafia and something about Albanian politicians and Greek taverns... suppose the next paper will deal with Albanian-Greek feasts) not to mention the possibility of a... Jihad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexikoua ( talk • contribs) 21:13, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
I feel that the way we decide what's is 'rs' or not may be not right. Let's notice some examples about M. Vickers's sources, they are usually some of the below:
99% of the sources are like the above.
The ca. 400.000 estimation about the Chams number has no sourcein Vickers (both 02. 07 paper). Suppose it's taken from Cham organizations.
Let's notice what says M. Vickers about history and how she disagrees with wikipedia:
All the above have no citations. Not to mention something that she says something about the relation with Greek government and organized crime or about a potential Jihad (without giving seirous citation).
Suppose Vickers is the one source that dont meet wiki's criteria, a number of historical wiki articles disagrees with her. On the other hand Imir wich is a impartial organization agrees with what wiki states as 'rs' and the methodology is mentioned on the above 2 links.
I will add IMIR's estimation, provided that Vickers' is tottaly unsourced and her sources (if stated) are mostly no-rs (like the mentioned above examples). Alexikoua ( talk) 18:16, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
As far as I saw, IMIR had no bibliography and no citation at all. If that author, would have been wikipedian, he would be indefinitely blocked. See WP:RS. For sure, it is not a reliable source. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 22:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
If the above information is correct, I do not see any reason for which we should still include Vickers here. It is more than enough to exclude her from all articles.--
Michael X the White (
talk)
22:37, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
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1) Clarified a point on minority treatment by Mataxas (not all minorities were mistreated and the discrimination was along political support lines more than ethnic ones) 2) The article had no mention of the Balli Kombëtar and the role of the Balists in persecuting Greeks and Jews during the occupation. I amended that.
Albanau, if you object to this form of the article, please discuss it here. It is not acceptable, among other things, to refer to provinces of independent countries as though they rightfully belonged to another independent country. Chronographos 15:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
It wasen't me I allways use my account. However Chronographos what you wrote is clearly not NPOV.
Çamëria (or Chameria) is the name sometimes used by Albanians to refer to the Greek province of Epirus. The area probably was home to an ethnic group of Albanian origin and Muslim faith, the Chams. The Chams are believed to have fled to Albania during, and immediately following, World War II, probably because they had been persecuted by Greek Resistance guerilla groups fighting against the Nazi occupation army, on the belief that Chams had cooperated with the Albanian-launched invasion of Greece by the Mussolini fascist regime in 1940, and had continued cooperation with the Nazi occupiers. Greek censuses mention no Muslim presence in Epirus since 1951; they do not include linguistic data.
Albanau 14:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Corrected reference to "under Greek influence" in 4th century. Removed refernce to "Cham Christians". Acerimusdux 17:08, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
An interesting thing about (modern) Greek arguments is that different rules always apply to Greeks and non-Greeks. So, it is unacceptable to use alternative names for territory in other countries? What do Greeks call Istanbul? Constantinople, I think. Or why do Greeks call southern Albania "NOrthern Epirus"? Basically, Greek people need to accept common rules for everyone, rathern than trying to cheat the rest of the world with fake historical arguments.
This artice is a disgrace! There's more POV here than in the Nazi mysticism and Holocaust denial articles put together. There's petty nationalist POV here from the Greek perspective and from the Albanian perspective. This should be remedied as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic Groups Template and above all, RELIABLE SOURCES should be found. You cannot make up things as you go along... Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:09, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
One problem here is whether WikiProject Ethnic Group applies here, as these people are Ethnic Albanians and identify as such. Are there any similar articles on similar minorities which we could copy? Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
To start with, I'm going to move this article to Cham Albanians; it's the best thing to do. Albanian diacritics should not be used in accordance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), and Cham on its own may cause confusion with the Cham people of Eastern Asia. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
Well done on improving this article. I was wondering if you could provide more concrete references for some of the figures mentioned in the article, such as the numbers of victims murdered by Zervas's troops and, in particular, the claim that there are 200,000 Chams living in Greece today. -- Damac 22:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
The numbers of the victims of the EDES come from the MOD pdf. I'll copy-paste the relevant parts here soon, but I can't open it now (the computer I'm using now doesn't support PDFs). I'll do it later today. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 14:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't have to - I have added it to the article. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 17:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
inflammatory comments removed at 16:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)]
Telex, please explain why you removed this comment. If not it comes back. Politis 16:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I can understand why you disliked it, but his comments are only targeting the people who contributed. As far as I can tell, there are no attacks against an entire nation but against the Hoxha regime - and in this he echos the voices of millions of Albanians who believe they suffered during those years! Where do you see those attacks? Politis 17:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the link to www.unpo.ee because (a) it does not appear to be the official link to UNPO (that is www.unpo.org) and (b) There is no mention of Cham Albanians in the UNPO website. TheArchon 15:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not an expert on the issue per se but I have done extensive study of British SOE and US OSS activities in the Near East and Balkans during the war.
The long quote from Joseph Jacobs really leads the wikipeida reader astray. This eviction was specifically ordered by British liaison to EDES, Col. Chris Woodhouse, and he says so in his memiors. The British liason was not an advisor but the de facto commander as London and SOE controlled all supply and funds to the EDES resistance. In fact he had been sent to replace Col. Eddie Myers, who London believed was not attacking the Nazi allied Albanian's forcably enough. The British at the time in Balkans were working at cross interests and often in direct opposition to the US OSS work. The OSS was doing things the British did not like, like supporting non Monarchist resistanc groups, helping Jews evacuate to Palestine, etc. Jacobs also was has to be taken with a grain of salt. None of his reporting is actually first hand.
In the Albanian Wikipedia page they say :
The region in the Greek part of the region of Epirus is about 6000 km² (Epirus has 9203 km²).
If you analyse the map in this same Wikipedia you'll see that Cameria outpasses the Thesprotia borders !
So why do you identify Cameria with Thesprotia ? Are the writers in the Albanian Wikipedia all wrong ?
--~April 14th 2008 CUSENZA Mario ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
In order to prevent an edit war, I will open this discussion and ask that users advocating the statements below to please provide any relevant sources:
Although, the massacres that took part in this region (massacre of Paramythia and Chrysi), against the Christian-Orthodox population, had the support of hundreds of Cham militias, no Cham criminal had been brought to trial after WWII, they found refuge behind the Albanian border after retreating together with the Nazi forces at 1944.
If the above statements are true, then they need to be verified as soon as possible. There is no guarantee that unsourced statements will remain in the article for very long. Deucalionite ( talk) 16:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
The massacres that took part in this region (Paramythia and Chrysi) against the Christian-Orthodox population had the support of hundreds of Cham militias. There are no reports of Cham criminals having been brought to trial after World War II. They found refuge behind the Albanian border after retreating together with the Nazis in 1944.
"because of their collaborating activity with the Nazi forces". If there are several hundreds in Elas, how could it be "their collaborating activity". It is generalised. I propose "becouse some of them collaborated with Nazi forces" What do you think? balkanian ( talk) 18:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
This section is geared towards analyzing, scrutinizing, and verifying all in-line citations currently implemented in the article. I will add my recommendations towards improving all references involved.
1) Vickers, Miranda. The Cham Issue - Where to Now? Paper prepared for the British MoD, Defence Academy, 2002.
2) Elsie, Robert. A Dictionary of Albanian Religion, Mythology, and Folk Culture. New York University Press, 2000, ISBN 0814722148, p. 131. "Jelim. Figure of southern Albanian mythology. These giants, Alb. jelim, def. jelimi, from Gk. έλλην 'Greek' with Slavic transmission, were known to the Saranda region. The Çams (of southern Çamëria region) believed themselves to be descended from a race of ancient jelims. cf. M. Lambertz 1973, p. 482; E. Cabej 1974b, p. 204."
3) Mazower, Mark. After The War Was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation and State in Greece, 1943-1960. Princeton University Press, 2000, ISBN 0691058423, p. 25.
4) Vickers, Miranda. The Cham Issue - Albanian National & Property Claims in Greece. Paper prepared for the British MoD, Defence Academy, 2002.
5) Russell King, Nicola Mai, and Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers. The New Albanian Migration. Sussex Academic Press, 2005, ISBN 1903900786, pp. 67 and 87.
6) Kresti, Georgia. The Secret Past of the Greek-Albanian Borderlands. Cham Muslim Albanians: Perspectives on a Conflict over Historical Accountability and Current Rights.
7) Mazower, Mark. After The War Was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation and State in Greece, 1943-1960. Princeton University Press, 2000, ISBN 0691058423, p. 26. "...Elas was opposed to the idea of collective punishment of the Cham community. Several hundred Chams had enlisted in its ranks..."
8) Mazower, Mark. Inside Hitler's Greece: The Experience of Occupation, 1941-44. Yale University Press, 1993, ISBN 0300089236.
9) The Society Farsarotul - Southern Albanian, Northern Epirus: Survey of a Disputed Ethnological Boundary (Tom J. Winnifrith)
10) Vickers, Miranda and Petiffer, James. The Albanian Question. I.B. Tauris, 2007, ISBN 1860649742, p. 238. "In a town such as Igoumenitsa (Albanian Goumenitsa), the Albanian language is still spoken by a minority of inhabitants."
The first citation. I think it is irrelevant. The only statement made by the author about Albanians in Turkey is that "Following their expulsion from Greece, most of the poorer Chams went to Albania, whilst the wealthier ones went to America and Turkey." balkanian ( talk) 20:18, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I have made some changes with references in the article. What do you think? balkanian ( talk) 09:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I think the first version was better. It was concetrated as a lead should be. This one has much more information that would be better to be added in the main part of the article not in the lead. balkanian ( talk) 17:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Also, sentences like this "Chams residing in Albania and abroad retained their language, folk songs, and traditions." seems not quite correct, since chams speak albanian so it is normal that they would retain their language in Albania. balkanian ( talk) 17:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
My proposal is as following for three main reasons: Firstly, this is an article about a certain group of population, so we shopuld include since the begining their characteristics (ex rezidence (for which they are distinguished from other albanians), language and religion. Secondly, we should say where are they today and why were they expelled. Thirdly, the lead should be compact. This is it: "Albanian: Çamë, Greek: Τσάμηδες Tsámidhes) are a group of ethnic Albanians, who originally resided in areas of Epirus that correspond to the modern Greek prefectures of Thesprotia and northern Preveza. Cham Albanians speak the Albanian language and are predominantly Muslim, with a sizable Orthodox Christian minority. After World War II, almost all Muslim Cham Albanians were expelled from their homes in Greece, because some of them[2] collaborated with the Nazi forces, although some provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS.[4] No Cham criminal was ever brought to trial.[3] Nowadays, they live mostly in Albania, while some were sent to Turkey during the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Orthodox Chams remained in Greece, but they have suffered from assimilation and public supression of their Albanian heritage and language.[1]" What do you think? balkanian ( talk) 17:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I think it is still POV. This is my sugestion:"Being discriminated by Greek government, some Chams welcomed Italian and Nazi occupation forces and were involved in massacres against Greeks in areas such as Paramythia and Chrysi, without the aproval of the local beys and muftis ref-Mark Mazower, I will give it later to you the exact citation-ref. When the war was finishing conflicts between EDES and Elas led the former to expel allmost all Chams, leading in tow massacres in their villages and towns. -again referenced with Mazower-" balkanian ( talk) 19:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
The source by Mazower: "The war saw communal relations worsen quickly. In October 1940, the Greek authorities disarmed 1,800 Cham conscriptes and put them to work on lokal road; the following month they seized all Albanian males not called up and deported them to camps or to island exile. Not surprisingly, when the Italians finally took control of mainland Greece in 1941, they found Cham activists willing to call for unification of the region with Albania. Several hundred were conscripted into the anti-communist Bal Komitare (Balli Kombetar, my edit) to act as local gendarmes. From the autum of 1943, these armed bands took part alongside the Wehrmacht in burning Greek villages. Such actions, it seems, were not supported by many of the local beys, nor by the Mufti. By the summer of 1944, it was obvious that a German withdrawal from Epiros was imminent. After the Cham bands turned down a demand from EDES to join it against the left-wing ELAS, EDES`s leader Napoleon Zervas ordered a general atack on the Cham villages. Two atacks took place, in July and August, with the participation of the EDES Tenth Division and local Greek peasants, eager to gain revenge for the burning of their homes: many of the cham villages were burned, and the remaining inhabitants- some 18,000 – fled across the border into Albania.”
Then he speaks for the return of some 4-5 thousand Cham Albanians, when ELAS came into force in Epirus, but after the Varkiza agrement he states:
“They were not slow to turn their attention back to the Chams. Led by Zervas`s former officer, Col. Zotos, a lose paramilitary grouping of the former guerillas and local men wet on a rampage. In the worst massacre, at the town of Filiates on 13 March, some sixty to seventy Chams were killed. The rest fled back across into Albania, leaving just the few families encountered in grim cicumstances by a British United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration worker that summer”
You can read the whole section in Google boks, in this site, pages 25-26. I will change my proposal to another one totally basen on this book a bit later. balkanian ( talk) 15:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
What about this:"Persecuted by the Greek government, several hundred Muslim Chams were also involved in burning Greek villages and massacres against Greeks at Paramythia citation needed and Chrysi citation needed without the approval of the local beys and muftis. After the Muslim Cham bands turned down a demand from EDES to join it against the left-wing ELAS, EDES`s leader Napoleon Zervas ordered a general atack, which lead in massacres, burning of cham villages, and the expelltion of all Muslim Chams across the border into Albania. " I removed that their collaborated with NAZI, because it is in the second paragraph of the lead. balkanian ( talk) 17:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
The sugestion for the whole lead:
Cham Albanians, or Chams (
Albanian: Çamë,
Greek: Τσάμηδες Tsámidhes), are a group of ethnic
Albanians, who originally resided in areas of
Epirus that correspond to the modern Greek prefectures of
Thesprotia and northern
Preveza. Cham Albanians speak the Albanian language and are predominantly
Muslim, with a sizable
Orthodox Christian minority.
"After World War II, almost all Muslim Cham Albanians were expelled from their homes in Greece, because a number of them collaborated with the Axis Powers, [1] although approximately the same amount of muslim Albanians provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS. [2] No Cham criminal was ever brought to trial. [3]
Persecuted by the Greek government, several hundred Muslim Chams were also involved in burning Greek villages and massacres against Greeks at Paramythia citation needed and Chrysi citation needed without the approval of the local beys and muftis. After the Muslim Cham bands turned down a demand from EDES to join it against the left-wing ELAS, EDES`s leader Napoleon Zervas ordered a general atack, which lead in massacres, burning of cham villages, and the expultion of all Muslim Chams across the border into Albania. [4] balkanian ( talk) 17:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
We have to find two things before the final edit. Firstly, references that chams did take part in massacres in paramythia and chrisi from a reliable source. Secondly, it would be better if we have the number of the massacred of both communities. By the way, what do you think about the new structure? balkanian ( talk) 20:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Also, I think we should not remove the "persecuted by the greek government" part. balkanian ( talk) 20:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Good job aboutMazower on Metaxas, it seemed doubious to me too. About Kresti I have her book, soI will bring the exact citation. balkanian ( talk) 06:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I made some changes in the paragraph please take a look. As for the population, you are right, it is better to leave it out of the lead for now. balkanian ( talk) 15:33, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Just so you know balkanian, I actually have a source (Chams by Michael Tritou) that can help us fill in the gaps regarding the Paramythia massacre. Moreover, the book I have also contains some wonderful tidbits on the historical (as opposed to folkloric) origins of the Chams themselves. Unfortunately, the book is only in Greek so I am technically forced to provide a translation for every direct quote I extract.
In case you have doubts about the source's reliability, keep in mind that it is well-referenced, well-written, and is a published work by a professor from the University of Thessaloniki. Long story short, I think this particular work will be the key towards further improving this article.
Full citation:
Τρίτου, Μιχαήλ. Τσάμηδες: Επίμαχο Πρόβλημα Ελλάδος και Ορθόδοξου Εκκλησίας Αλβανίας. Εκδοτικός Οίκος Κυρομάνος: Θεσσαλονίκη, 2003.
By the way, where can we go to verify the reference citations from works by Miranda Vickers? I checked the links in the article and they are currently dead. Deucalionite ( talk) 20:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Just per talk: Is he a reliable source? He seems too strange for me. He says that they become muslims, that does not mean that they become Albanians. He seems to me, like the ones who say that all orthodox population in Albania is Greek. (By the way I am orthodox and no one of my grandparents and great grandparents, did not know Greek). I mean, is a realiable source, somebody that does not make the differences between religion and ethnicity? Per argumentWhat he says is really unhistorical. Go to google books and try to find about the albanians of epirus. Search with "Gjin Bua Shpata", or better his english name "John Spata", or "Peter Losia" and you will see that this orthodox cheiftains were albanians, they were chieftains of Albanian population of Epirus. And we are talking about the 13th century, and not the 16th that Tritou says. So Albanians were there in that time. I will make a new historical section (thats why I added a subsection of Medivial Ages in History section two days before), which will contain the origins of them. After you search in google books, you will see that this population has come on Epirus in Medivial Ages when serbs pushed them in the south. This is the theory of the most historians. SugestionRemove Tritou till we see if he is reliable and not a Greek POV argument (otherwise I will add the Albanian argument that Epirus was Albanian since antiquity), and letstry to add the references of wellknown historians, about their origin. balkanian ( talk) 10:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
By thw way I found the article only in "far-right" Ellinikes Grames [2]. This makes my "just per talk argument" more realistic. balkanian ( talk) 10:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Just per talkThe fact that he is a proffesor does not make him reliable. We need historians, not theologians, (He is a theologian in University of Thesaloniki). But, as I said, we do not need in the article, neither GREEK POV, nor ALBANIAN POV. I could source you tens of Albanian real historians (real but POV pushing historians) that would make Greeks the worsts against chams, or Epirus as 99%Albanian, since the time of Phyrros. That is exactly what we do not need in this article. And I am totally certain that Tritou is one fo them. balkanian ( talk) 10:50, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Nice my friend, I am removing your edits in identity section. After we finish other sections, we will start with history section, and then I will bring you the exact references I mentioned above, about the origins of Chams, muslim and orthodoxes, which you can find in the way I told you above. About Paramythia, for sure he can be added in order to fill gasps. I think that such massacres did actually take place, but I still think that he is a unreliable source. I suggest that when we find another source about the massacres in Paramythia, to remove Tritou. About the ellinikes grames, I did not say that you didnt have the book. I said that his book is used solely by Ellinikes Grames in the web, and that makes him unreliable (just per talk, not wiki argument). Nevertheless, I enjoy our collaboration, but isn`t this a great one, when we do not agree with each other and try to find a consensus? I think this is the best collaboration:-) balkanian ( talk) 12:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Well done, guys. This is a good article with lots of references and it is now neutral. Nicely done!-- Michael X the White ( talk) 13:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Tsourkpk, nice to be with us, please give your opinion and your suggestions for everything you find not acquarate in the article.
Deucalionite I think that we should finish with other sections, before we start with hisotry section, because the last is the most difficult. When we start rewriting the history section, we will find one by one all the references in it. What do you think?
balkanian (
talk)
14:17, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok, guys. What do you think about the article in general, without the history section. Does it need any further information, or is any information doubious? In order to finish the rest and to start with the history section. balkanian ( talk) 20:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I suggest that in the "current issues" section to add only the information about what chams are asking today from the greek and albanian government and their responses. All other info would be more relevant in history section. What do you think? balkanian ( talk) 20:37, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, I was delayed...I am sorry. Publication: Lexicology Centre P.Year: 2002 pg:761-- Michael X the White ( talk) 14:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I think it is fine to write "according to other sources, chams are 40000". However, it is not the same to include that in the infobox, because it ignores other sources (the Greek government). Could the one that made the infobox clarify this, or find other sources to support the 40000? And another thing: where do 70000 and 80000 come for the U.S and Turkey?-- Michael X the White ( talk) 19:29, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
It is a good addition in the article but some people have nothing to do with Chams, for example: Spata, Losha and Zenebishti are total irrelevant. They could be noted as 'Arvanitai' but not Chams.
a. They were born outside Chameria/Tsiamouria
b. They ruled territories outside Chameria /Tsiamouria
c. In that age there was not a single record about Chameria /Tsiamouria or chams/tsiamides, even more if there were albanian speaking populations there (and I mean in the territory of Thesprotia and Preveza prefectures).-- Alexikoua ( talk) 06:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Moreover, there is not an ancestral link. But if there are historical facts that give excact explanation we could have a clear image. In the article Cham history seems to start 1912, there is sure a historical gap between 14th and 20th century Alexikoua ( talk) 16:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
That`s right, because I and Deucalionite have decided to edit in a later time the history section. But, for sure, Cham Albanians did not "born" in 1912. For sure they existed backwards. But, according to Helsinki Monitor Raport, Arvanites of Epirus are part of modern Albanian nation, and commonly (see Vickers) they are called Orthodox Cham Albanians. This means that, even if you add them in Arvanites article, it does not mean that they have no reason to exist in this page. Most of all, according to "History of Albanian People" Albanian Academy of Science. ISBN 9992716231, after the fall of their territory, Shpatas, etc, remained in these territories, so forming the Albanian population of Epirus. This means that they are the anecestors of Arvanites of Epirus (i.e. Orthodox Cham Albanians, see Helsinki raport and Vickers). On the other hand, some of them were converted to Islam, see Jakup Shpata the last despot of Arta, thus being the anescetors of muslim Cham Albanians. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 17:22, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
But you mean that Chams and Arvanites of Epirus were excact the same? and I mean even the Arvanites/Albanians from areas that are not geographically included in Chameria/Tsiamouria? (Ioannina and Arta perf. for example Faik Konica could be a Cham?)
According to my research, the region of Thesprotia, which was called Vachenetia during 14th century, wasnt ruled by Albanian lords. It remained most of the time, part of the Despotate of Ioannina, until the Ottomans occupied Epirus (1430).
As for Jakup Shpata, its really interesting the fact that he was the first despot that joined Islam (he might did that to secure an alliance with ottomans but finally failed). But according to my sources Shpata's relatives didnt not joined Islam (like 'Dimos Bouas' lord of Aggelokastro and Acheloos area ca. 1420 after Spata's death). It was probably a seperate unique action of strategic importance and not a massive convertion to Islam.
According to sources in paramythia-online.gr, massive convertions to Islam in the area occured after the failed revolt of 1611.
The fact that the term Chams and Chameria emerged some centuries later (off course long before 1912), makes things complicated about 'labelling' a personality of the 14th century as Cham.
I believe that the related section in history should be added first (pre 1912), in order to have a more clear view about the past, because some sources seem that contradict eachother. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree to add personalities that were geographically from Thesprotia-Vag(e)netia-Chameria/Tsiamouria region. But this excludes the specidic medieval lords that were from Arta, Delvine, Acheloos, Aggelokastro.
I have found some information about these despots and made additions on related articles. I' ll soon add the related sources. But were these lords called 'Vagnetians', did we know how they called themselves? (according to Greek medieval records they were called 'Arvanitai') It is certain that they married princesses of other nations, in order to legitimate their titles (something usuall for that age)
The term Vahenetia/Vagnetia derives from a slavic tribe that invaded and some of them settled in the area during 500-600 A.D., according to Vasiliev's Byzantine History.-- Alexikoua ( talk) 07:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
(according to Greek medieval records they were called 'Arvanitai')
During this period 'Arvanitai' meant Albanians, and not Arvanites. You know, even Gehg Albanians in Greek mediveal records is called 'Arvanitai'. They could not call themselves Vagnetians, because such a term did not exist to Albanian ethnonym. During this period albanians were called all Arber, or Arvanit, or Albans. for further info see Albanians. So, I think we should add,all those who are from this region, and not them who call themselves "Vagnetians" Balkanian`s word ( talk) 10:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree in this point, to add personalities that are from this region. According to the map cities such as Arta, Delvine, Finiq, Aggelokastro are outside from the region.
I agree also about the use of term 'Arvanitai' in medieval Greek records. Byzantine historians like Michael Attaliates and Anna Comnenus, Niketas Choniates gave usually names to nations that virtually were wrong (according to modern historians). For example the Turks were recorded as Persians, because of the ancient people that lived in the Middle East area. Something similar happened with the Pechenegs, they were recorded as Scythes (the ancient people of the same geographical region). Byzantine records gave (ancient) names to nations, that were total irrelevant with them. There was only the geographical coinsidence. Alexikoua ( talk) 18:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
I've noticed some piece of information that can come in handy, especially about the number of the present population. The report is from the International Center for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations. I believe that it is a reliable source, worth the try to mention something of that like:
During the ongoing dispute, each side began to present its own data on the number of Çams: according to the Greek authorities, they were about 80 000 persons, while according to the Albanian authorities their number was about 500 000. The figures cited were absolutely arbitrary, not based on any statistical surveys but rather seeking a suggestive impact.
There is more to look in there.
Sometimes M. Vickers uses one sided only information, not to mention that some of them are total wrong (especially about history, like Thesprotians were an ancient Illyrian tribe, and that there is a clear link between Illyria and Albania when she mentioned that 'the region was populated both by Illyrians and Greeks like today') and some others make you think that her papers (both 2002 and 2007) have nothing to do with a serious report (about collaboration of the Greek government with the Mafia and something about Albanian politicians and Greek taverns... suppose the next paper will deal with Albanian-Greek feasts) not to mention the possibility of a... Jihad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexikoua ( talk • contribs) 21:13, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
I feel that the way we decide what's is 'rs' or not may be not right. Let's notice some examples about M. Vickers's sources, they are usually some of the below:
99% of the sources are like the above.
The ca. 400.000 estimation about the Chams number has no sourcein Vickers (both 02. 07 paper). Suppose it's taken from Cham organizations.
Let's notice what says M. Vickers about history and how she disagrees with wikipedia:
All the above have no citations. Not to mention something that she says something about the relation with Greek government and organized crime or about a potential Jihad (without giving seirous citation).
Suppose Vickers is the one source that dont meet wiki's criteria, a number of historical wiki articles disagrees with her. On the other hand Imir wich is a impartial organization agrees with what wiki states as 'rs' and the methodology is mentioned on the above 2 links.
I will add IMIR's estimation, provided that Vickers' is tottaly unsourced and her sources (if stated) are mostly no-rs (like the mentioned above examples). Alexikoua ( talk) 18:16, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
As far as I saw, IMIR had no bibliography and no citation at all. If that author, would have been wikipedian, he would be indefinitely blocked. See WP:RS. For sure, it is not a reliable source. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 22:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
If the above information is correct, I do not see any reason for which we should still include Vickers here. It is more than enough to exclude her from all articles.--
Michael X the White (
talk)
22:37, 7 February 2009 (UTC)