![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 26 June 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Mail (armour). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
does anyone know the latin name for Chainmail as I have searched for MACULA and always end up at spot, blemish etc??? — 219.88.43.216 00:19, 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)
This is crazy. Can we move it back please? "Chain maille" gets less than 5% of the number of hits of "Chainmail". I know the etymology, but we happen to have a policy of titling articles after the commonly used English term. dab (ᛏ) 11:48, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is an old talk but it is still relevant. Common english usage is Chainmail, or simply Mail, with the latter being strongly preferred by medievalists etc. Additionally the opening line outright declares that terms other than Mail are outright false. Given this strong phrasing the opening paragraph should be revised, or the name of the article changed to simply 'Mail'. 173.73.72.124 ( talk) 18:53, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
Anyone have pictures of knotted mail to add to this one? -- Dbroadwell 17:01, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
---Would the original poster of the Photographs take them down and rotate them 90 degrees? Thats the way chainmail is supposed to go, by having the mail shown the way it is on this page it is innacurate and misleading.-Dark357g---
I can't seem to move the above posts this section, but Idiot with a gun brings up a good point. There is a difference between historical mail and modern jewelry mail and weaves. Jewelery mail often has little to do with the historical concept of mail and it's uses, but some of it's weaves are derived from it, and the terminology comes from there as well. New article? Sethwoodworth 22:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
As he said, there are hundreds of modern maille weaves, usually catagorized as European, Japanese, Persian, Spiral, and Hybrid (the miscellaneous catagory), and are catagorized by their similarity to the "father" weaves, if you will, of each catagory. However, most of these have little to no combat use (as with most modern non-riveted/welded maille), so they are quite different from the chainmaille discussed here. --- Idiot with a gun 00:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Right, not to mention all of the historical Oriental weaves involving hexigonal and triangular shapes and the like. Not something I've played with personally. There is probably a much stronger connection between the modern weaves and jewelery, especially with the spiral weaves, which are better suited for strands than sheets. I wonder if something of the like already exists on wiki? Sethwoodworth 12:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Japanese mail was neither rivetted nor solid. Thus butted mail did exist and it is weak. The statement that mail was never wore without a gambeson cannot be verified, thus is misleading.
I added more about Japanese mail, but it probably needs some rewording, and I'm a bit strapped for time. -- Idiot with a gun 21:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Japanese mail was VERY frequently welded. However, welded/rivetted increases strength against thrusts, and much of their attacks were based on slashes, for which it wasn't necessary. Mzmadmike 04:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I challenge anyone to show even one example of Japanese (samurai) chain armor "kusari gusoku" which has been "welded" As far as I know (I own and have seen more examples of samurai chain armor than anyone I have met) there has NEVER been even one picture to prove this statement. Japanese chain was always butted or wound several times but NEVER welded riveted, or stamped. (
Samuraiantiqueworld (
talk)
07:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC))
I am reverting the arrow resistance mention. I have seen modern scientific data that shows mail with a proper padded garment being sufficiently resistant to arrows.
At the very least the wording is misleading, the topic is a lot more complicated and deserves to be covered in it's own section. There have been no conclusive scientific tests that show a vulnerability of mail to arrows.
If mail "offered little to no protection against arrows" then a group of archers would be able to overwhelm anyone armed in only mail. Mail would be obsolete and stop being worn, which wasn't something that happened until the rise of gunpowder. Sethwoodworth 21:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Maille was made obsolete by the rise of better swords, and archery techniques. A standard hunting (broad head) arrow tip will probably not pierce chainmaille, and often the thick leather underneath it saved the wearer. Swords during the era of chainmaille hauberks were iron and crude steel, and lacked the structural integrity to do a stabbing technique, in which you would risk destroying the blade due to entanglement and torque. Therefore, most warriors used shields and swords for slashing techniques, which maille was very good at defending against. Once better steel started to show up in swords, and the longbow was developed (with longer armor piercing points, that lacked the broad sides to get caught by), chainmaille began to become the armor of choice among lower pay infantry, where knights started using solid breast plates, and eventually the traditional full suits of armor. Chainmaille as a main form of armor was gone long before firearms came about. --- Idiot with a gun 19:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The mailed knights in the Hundred Years War took a beating from archers, and there were specific bodkin points made that would slide right through 3-4". However, archers were not in large use outside of England, and gunpowder followed fairly shortly. But mail stayed in use for a long time, because it was still effective against edged attacks. Mzmadmike 04:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
"There are a few sources, however, indicating that arrows could, on occasion, penetrate mail far enough to kill the wearer. At the Battle of Nicaea (1097), Albert of Aix wrote that, "Walter the Penniless fell, pierced by seven arrows which had penetrated his coat of mail." In another account Saxo wrote that the Gotlanders strung their bows so hard that their arrows could penetrate shield, hauberk, and helmet. Gerald of Wales recounted an anecdote in which a Norman was hit at close range by a Welsh arrow that penetrated his mailed leg, through his saddle, and far enough into his horse to kill it. During the Battle of Acre (1291), William de Beaujeu, Master of the Temple, was accused of cowardice when he retreated from the fighting. He lifted up his arm and replied, "Seigneurs, I can do no more, for I am dead; see the wound." An arrow had pierced him through the mail beneath his armpit – only the fletches were visible."
"Another source is the Chronicon Colmariense (1398), in which the author states that men at arms wore, "…an iron shirt, woven from iron rings, through which no arrow fired from a bow could cause injury." The very need to make this distinction implies that some other types of mail were not as capable at resisting arrows."
If the findings of the Royal Armouries testes are something like: "the armour is not invincible but is seldom punctured." then something like that should also be included in the introduction. The problem is that the statement "it is almost impossible to penetrate using any conventional medieval weapon." in the introduction should be qualified, as I certainly read it as meaning that virtually nothing could penetrate. I don't have the article so I can't quote from it, and honestly I don't have heaps of research in front of me at the moment, or heaps of time. I remember seeing tests showing that maille is very good against almost anything except very powerful bows (like the Mongol ones mentioned above) or crossbows. Also did the Royal Armouries tests include lances or spears from horseback? I find it difficult to imagine any maille withstanding the impact of a lance from horseback and there are certainly many contemporary sources and pictures that show/describe spears going straight through a knight on horseback. Master z0b ( talk) 05:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
This image from the Morgan Bible shows maille being penetrated by spears; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Morgan_Bible_10r.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Master z0b ( talk • contribs) 05:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually Mercutio.Wilder I haven't got into an edit war because I didn't make any edits, as I'm trying to be civil. Also I have provided at least one pictoral reference (Morgan bible refernece above) and a couple of written references (again above) to mail being penetrated but you ignore them. You may or may not like those sources but please don't accuse me of not providing "any contradictory evidence" when I clearly have. Again I'm just engaging in discussion here which is what this page is for. I'll do some more research and site sources for the following things and then I will edit; For starters the archeological remains of soldiers from the battle of Visby show that most wounds occur in non defended areas but not all, That's from the "Medieval Warfare Source Book, Vol. 1 Warfare in Western Christendom" David Nicolle, London: Arms and Armour Press, 1995". He also states that mail could be pierced. However I'll do the right thing and not edit until I have more sources so that at least the idea that it's debatable is undeniable. Master z0b ( talk) 01:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html 217.131.108.185 ( talk) 00:50, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
Latest reversion was made because it placed the word 'sometimes' in an improper place. Mail is made of small interlocking rings, not just sometimes. Sethwoodworth 16:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I deleted references to using mail as a Faraday cage, and alleged CURRENT military uses of it against edges. Show me some kind of cite for either, because I'm calling BS:-) 22 years in the military, licensed for electrical work, deployed with numerous NATO allies and I've never seen any mention of either, nor does any electrical supply company offer mail for that, nor would it work unless grounded, nor would anyone in the military wear mail when existing body armor will work just fine and protect against frag and bullets too. This sounds like something someone saw in a movie, or heard at a SCA event from "Some old guy" or "former Navy SEAL." Mzmadmike 04:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
It should be mentioned that the chief difference of european and asian maille is it's function. Europeans used maille as the primary armor, or as flexible joints for the groin, shoulder, or neck. Asian armors used it only for connecting large plates. The patterns they used did not 'mesh' in the same way as european patterns.
The idea that the Japanese(samurai)only used chain for connecting plates of armor and did not use it for a stand alone defense has been completely disproved. The Japanese used full suits of chain armor "kusari Gusoku" and individual pieces of chain clothing such as chain jackets or "kusari katabira". There are many pictures, discussions and items for sale of authentic antique Japanese chain armor available now online for anyone to see, just search for>>> Japanese chain armor, Japanese chain mail, Japanese chainmail,kusari katabira, kusari gusoku.(
Samuraiantiqueworld (
talk)
07:34, 29 March 2010 (UTC))
Believe or not, this has been done. Tuomas Viljanen, a Finnish Medieval re-enactor and former competive swimmer, did test swimming in sea wearing hauberk and chausses in Finland 1993. He described it extremely exhausting but certainly possible. Since mail certainly won't float and the natural body buoyance is reduced by the weight of armour, it requires great effort, but an experienced swimmer can do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.100.124.218 ( talk • contribs)
[ [5]] Another person swimming in mail.
I have added a suggested merge to move the European 4-1 page, currently a very small stub, into this article. European 4-1 is a type of chainmail, and I think it would be rather difficult to come up with much to make an entire article on just 4-1 link pattern. -- Xiliquiern 17:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I should have made note of this in my original post, but the merge will take place "After sufficient time has elapsed to generate consensus or silence (at least 5 days)" per guidelines on merging pages. -- Xiliquiern 19:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Theblindsage 09:34, 8 February 2007 (UTC) Isn't 'double mail' kind of a bunk concept? Doubling the number of rings certainly doubles the weight, but I don't think it doubles the protection. References to 'double-linked' seem to refer to 6 in 1 linkages, rather then 4 in 1 linkages. http://www.geocities.com/athens/olympus/3505/index.html
Is there any evidence for the actuality of 'bar mail', which is 4 in 1 maille with every fourth ring being punched rather then welded, riveted or butted. http://artofchainmail.com/history.html. Some sources seem to say yes ( http://www.arador.com/articles/chainmail.html) but I am unsure about what to accept.
Out of idle curiosity, why is there no woven or knitted wire armor? Given that all Maille starts life as wire, why did no one ever just make the wire directly into armor? I've found examples, but they are more curiosity then armor. http://www.golden-knots.com/mail.html
I've got a few dozen closeup photos of medieval Russian armor from the Kremlin Armoury. Would they be of use here? Rklawton 02:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't Chainmail be two separate words - 'chain mail'? Corvus coronoides Contributions MGo Blue 23:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I came to this article looking for pictures of historical mail armour. I found pictures of modern reconstructions, and descriptions of how the modern ones differ slightly from historical ones. Could someone please add pictures of surviving medieval suits? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.234.206.177 ( talk • contribs).
The caption says hauberk, but the armor shown doesn't appear to be knee-length. According to the article, the waist-length shirt of mail is supposed to be called a byrnie. Pirate Dan 16:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Can someone lead me towards a soruce that indicate that a byrnie was actually hip length?-- 82.28.44.83 ( talk) 20:22, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Tyr Anasazi from the tv series Andromeda was often seen wearing a chainmail vest as seen on this picture [6] , should this be mentioned on the article?-- TiagoTiago 20:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
It is just me or does the first paragraph not makes sense when it talks about wounds. It indicates that mail did not protect against brokenbones due to impacts, but did against cuts. Then it goes on to say that medieval medicine treats bruising and broken bones well but not infection (presumably from cuts), but then goes on to make a contradictory statement that the mail was weak at protecting the wearer from the more dangerous injuries (infering cuts), and vice versa.-- 82.28.44.83 ( talk) 00:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The following paragraph has several problems, mainly due to the fact that it makes assertions without citations, also the tone seems incorrect for a encylopedia;
The majority of this type of mail is manufactured in India using a form of mass-production. Unfortunately this style of mail lacks many of the intricacies of the period mail it is meant to replicate. But, the cost is low. However, there are a handful of people around the world who are attempting to replicate mail in a much more accurate fashion, but unfortunately only a couple seem to have gotten it correct. While this type of mail is extremely durable, its high level of labor tends to make it too cost-prohibitive for all but the most discerning collectors of reproduction armour. Many reenactors tend to prefer the use of welded steel rings that take less time to produce while offering the same protective benefits of riveted mail.
I propose changing the paragraph to read like this:
The majority of this type of mail is manufactured in India using a form of mass-production, reducing the cost. This style of mail lacks some of the intricacies of the period mail it is meant to replicate. There are a handful of people around the world who are attempting to replicate mail in a more accurate fashion.
It basically read like someone's personal opinion. Master z0b ( talk) 02:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
A recent edit described the development of armour as an arms race. I find this assertion untenable when talking about personal armour. In all instances that I am aware of the type of armour worn is dictated by socio-economic factors and technological factors.
Plate armour is frequently described as a reaction to more powerful weapons such as the couched lance, crossbow, and/or longbow. But none of these weapons were developed just before plate armour. The crossbow and couched lance predate the first plate by centuries. The crossbow had been banned by the Pope nearly a hundred years before the first known piece of plate armour. The longbow existed this early as well but was not extensively used in warfare until Agincourt in the second half of the 14th century. By that time virtually all of the French knights were wearing full plate harness and the weapon still played a significant tactical role.
There is however a connection between the development of water-powered trip hammers and the infrastructure necessary for making and then affording to buy plate armour. This explains why in appeared in between the emergence of the above weapons and not in reaction to them.
Mercutio.Wilder ( talk) 22:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "Kings Maille' just the same bunk as 'double maille' cropping up againt? Theblindsage 15:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I was always under the impression that king's maille was in the pattern European 8-in-1, and that 8-in-2 wasn't historically accurate. In all the years I've been making chain maille, I've never seen anything to the contrary; in fact, several websites specifically stated that it was not authentic. I'll try to find those again. If I can find the time, I'll also put up a picture of real king's maille. Wii Willie Wiki 20:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I've read that neither is period, but king's maille is doubled european 4-1, which makes it 8-2. I might be wrong, though. -- Brego58 ( talk) 21:47, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
"Weight distribution is one of the two real drawbacks of mail..."
What's the other one? Never stated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.230.215.22 ( talk) 07:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering whether chain mail is able to stop (small calibre) bullets. Compared to kevlar, its only slightlty heavier (eg 17 kg to 11kg), has full arm (and can even be fitted with leg) protection (unlike a kevlar vest), and finally, it's much cheaper, easier to repair, ... Finally, if simple iron doesn't suffice, perhaps titanium, carbon tubes (both expensive however) or some type of alloy could be used. Perhaps that some sections that don't need much movement (eg breast, ...) can also be welded together to be able to spread the energy better (if this area of the maille is hit). It does have drawbacks to kevlar (eg no energy spreading, not bullet proof atleast for higher calibres, ...) but I think it's still intresting to do a comparison between the 2 (it may be useful for smaller calibre bullets to heavily reduce (but not eliminate) the damage). Some info at http://www.instructables.com/community/Is-chain-maille-bullet-proof/ and http://www.instructables.com/community/Is-chain-maille-bullet-proof/ If a maille could prove useful, I'm guessing it could potentially be useful (due to its lower cost, repairability, ...) to improve the safety in violent regions (eg guatemala, ...). KVDP ( talk) 17:08, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
As of the current day mail is used as anti stab armor but not as stand alone protection against bullets. The reason for this has to do with the structure of mail. Being comprised of many relatively large pieces instead of thread it has the tendency to fragment when hit rather than absorbing energy. This makes mail great for resisting cuts and stabs as these pieces aren't easily cut but they can break. Kevlar can absorb energy but can be cut and mail can't be cut but can't absorb energy- they complement each other quite well. In my theory when a bullet would hit mail it would fragment the rings, distributing its force among many particles each with less force than the bullet. If a backing were set up that could absorb the energy of the fragments then it could be beneficial. The other part of the issue is that nobody has even made mail of modern and lightweight materials and even bullet tests of mail have it improperly made (loose and butted for example). Nobody has undergone serious testing of mail in recent times. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
173.71.166.2 (
talk)
16:03, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I have tested small mesh (17ga x 1/4"ID) 4:1 and medium mesh (14ga x 5/16"ID) 4:1 against some common bullets. The results for both were about the same: With the mail hanging free and unweighted, common .22 lead ball long rifle rounds (did not test with hollow point) fragmented and deformed the rings at point of impact and one place away, but did not break the mesh. The fragments from the larger mesh penetrated the common milk jugs (one gallon polyethylene) that I set behind them, and were retrieved from the bottom. The bullet removed one ring from the smaller mesh and was mangled, but did not penetrate the plastic.
.38spl 158gr SJHP rounds went right through both mail and jugs and were lost downrange. Rings were deformed out to eight places away from point of impact in one place in the small mesh. Large mesh only had deformation out to three rings.
In small mesh, 5.56mm NATO rounds deformed rings out to two places from point of impact but no rings were lost. In large mesh, only two rings (total) were deformed.
Apparently, the exposed lead in semijacketed rounds grab the rings and pull, where FMJ rounds just pierce and slide through easily.
Against a 1/2" plywood backing, distortion was minimal; .22lr rounds stuck in the mesh and drove the mesh into the wood, to a depth roughly equal to the width of the wire, at the deepest point. The 38spl punched through mail and wood, deforming out to two places and carrying one ring from the larger mesh and 3 rings from the smaller through the hole with it. The bullets fragmented into a mangled mess, and were retrieved from the sandbag behind the target. The 5.56mm round was about the same result, and showed a few streaks from contact with the wire, but otherwise looked pretty normal.
Just for yuks, I made some doubled 4:1 (8:2?) out of 14ga 5/16" and shot it with .22lr. It stopped the rounds completely, but the mail was so stiff that there's no way it could be worn as a suit. I didn't try it with other rounds.
BTW, All rings used in these experiments were made of common galvanized steel electric fence wire, available at most hardware or farm stores.
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Wayne (
talk •
contribs) 04:05, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
wayne (
talk) —Preceding
undated comment added
03:59, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
Is it necessary to have "unreferenced" templates at every section or is one template at the head of the article sufficient? SpinningSpark 10:05, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
The consensus on tag bombing is that this is an undesirable thing. The issue has been debated many times, most recently at Village pump (policy). In fact, the consensus at that debate was that in many cases even a banner template at the top of the article was too much and it should be moved to the references section. In this case, I would compromise on the banner template at the top, but templating every single main sub-heading seems excessive. SpinningSpark 10:05, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia Critique: Mail (armor) : by Jordan Silverman
This article is regarding a short history of mail, which is a type of armor that is made up of tiny metal rings connected together to form a mesh. This article is extremely well written as if an expert on the subject wrote it. The article laid out the history of the chainmail clearly and concisely as to avoid any confusion. Although this article’s sources are authoritative in that they include references to the Journal of Medieval History, they are somewhat incomplete because they do not provide a complete detailed account of when and where mail was invented. This shortcoming, however, is of no fault of the article, and is instead due to a lack of sufficient archaeological evidence of the invention of mail armor around the 3rd century B.C.E.
The illustrations used throughout the article are very useful and give the reader a good idea of the different styles of mail armor used in various times and locations. There are numerous pictures of mail from around the time of its invention up through the present. There are also pictures of different types of mail from Europe, China and Japan to give the reader a sense of how different mail armor was in each area respectively. This article covers the topic of mail armor thoroughly including sections on its history, etymology, effectiveness, manufacturing and modern uses. The article additionally covers the development of distinctive styles and uses for mail in different parts of the world.
The article remains unharmed by frivolous or spurious contributions. It seems to have been thoughtfully put together and sustained extremely well. The treatment of this article in Wikipedia seems to be no worse to that of a conventional encyclopedia, and in fact appears to be somewhat of an improvement. This is because with Wikipedia this article can be easily located by performing a simple search for “mail” or “chainmail”. It can also be considered an improvement on a conventional encyclopedia since it may be updated with current information as it becomes available. Though this article is a terrific source on mail armor it could be improved by mentioning the relative price of the mail armor, specifically its production, as it does not refer to the costs once during the entire article.
Ko'chuga seems to be standard mail, baidana a variant mail made of riveted 'washers', and the bakterets is the combination of mail and plate that shows up all over. http://www.xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/medievalarmor/russ30.htm Theblindsage ( talk) 08:25, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Reference for usage in more than North Africa comes from John Thornton - Atlantic Warfare. It is not my area (the armor thing) so I am hoping someone can seek it out and add it to the Article. B/c mail was used in so-called Sub-Saharan medieval wars.-- Inayity ( talk) 13:40, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
"The Arabs and Byzantines transmitted chain mail to Europe; and a share in this movement may be attributed to the cultural exchange between East and West during the crusades." What kind of utter nonsense (is that? It's even in direct contradiction to the rest of the article. "Byzantines" as a faction did not exist prior to 4th century AD; and "Arabs" as a faction didn't exist prior to 7th century AD. Chain mail arrived in Europe or maybe was invented in Europe before 200 BC. Ölet's remove or cut shrot (by the nonsensical sentence) the Laufer quote! 2001:4DD3:9B47:0:8471:DB5A:9759:EC92 ( talk) 08:57, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/ciumesti-burial/ About the oldest recovered chain mail armour (from the chieftain grave mentioned in the article). 2001:4DD3:9B47:0:8471:DB5A:9759:EC92 ( talk) 08:59, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Mail (armour). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:18, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved ( page mover nac) Flooded with them hundreds 07:58, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
Mail (armour) → Chain mail – Per WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION and WP:COMMONNAME. Rreagan007 ( talk) 01:12, 4 November 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. – Ammarpad ( talk) 17:27, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Boy, this was a dumb move, if only for the reason that the article title is no longer the primary term used throughout the text, which has the effect of the lead seeming to argue against the title by using "mail" and "maille" first—and then the rest of the article uses "mail" all but exclusively. There was absolutely no reason for this. None whatsoever. WP Ludicer ( talk) 08:38, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
I would suspect a link to French maillot "shirt". Maikel ( talk) 08:51, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) Melmann 20:33, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Chain mail → Mail (armour) – Was moved incorrectly from that title, and without consensus (5-3). All reliable sources and experts in the area use "mail", as does the article itself. A redirect is sufficient to draw in the people who are mistaken about what it's called. I would have just moved it myself, but the redirect blocks me. Magic9mushroom ( talk) 05:04, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
The article claims "Sometime during the 14th century European mail makers started to transition from round rivets to wedge shaped rivets but continued using alternating rows of solid rings.", however, this is not cited. The following citation (53) does not specify when this transition occurred. OzGardi ( talk) 21:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 26 June 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Mail (armour). The result of the discussion was not moved. |
does anyone know the latin name for Chainmail as I have searched for MACULA and always end up at spot, blemish etc??? — 219.88.43.216 00:19, 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)
This is crazy. Can we move it back please? "Chain maille" gets less than 5% of the number of hits of "Chainmail". I know the etymology, but we happen to have a policy of titling articles after the commonly used English term. dab (ᛏ) 11:48, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is an old talk but it is still relevant. Common english usage is Chainmail, or simply Mail, with the latter being strongly preferred by medievalists etc. Additionally the opening line outright declares that terms other than Mail are outright false. Given this strong phrasing the opening paragraph should be revised, or the name of the article changed to simply 'Mail'. 173.73.72.124 ( talk) 18:53, 3 April 2020 (UTC)
Anyone have pictures of knotted mail to add to this one? -- Dbroadwell 17:01, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
---Would the original poster of the Photographs take them down and rotate them 90 degrees? Thats the way chainmail is supposed to go, by having the mail shown the way it is on this page it is innacurate and misleading.-Dark357g---
I can't seem to move the above posts this section, but Idiot with a gun brings up a good point. There is a difference between historical mail and modern jewelry mail and weaves. Jewelery mail often has little to do with the historical concept of mail and it's uses, but some of it's weaves are derived from it, and the terminology comes from there as well. New article? Sethwoodworth 22:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
As he said, there are hundreds of modern maille weaves, usually catagorized as European, Japanese, Persian, Spiral, and Hybrid (the miscellaneous catagory), and are catagorized by their similarity to the "father" weaves, if you will, of each catagory. However, most of these have little to no combat use (as with most modern non-riveted/welded maille), so they are quite different from the chainmaille discussed here. --- Idiot with a gun 00:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Right, not to mention all of the historical Oriental weaves involving hexigonal and triangular shapes and the like. Not something I've played with personally. There is probably a much stronger connection between the modern weaves and jewelery, especially with the spiral weaves, which are better suited for strands than sheets. I wonder if something of the like already exists on wiki? Sethwoodworth 12:08, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Japanese mail was neither rivetted nor solid. Thus butted mail did exist and it is weak. The statement that mail was never wore without a gambeson cannot be verified, thus is misleading.
I added more about Japanese mail, but it probably needs some rewording, and I'm a bit strapped for time. -- Idiot with a gun 21:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Japanese mail was VERY frequently welded. However, welded/rivetted increases strength against thrusts, and much of their attacks were based on slashes, for which it wasn't necessary. Mzmadmike 04:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I challenge anyone to show even one example of Japanese (samurai) chain armor "kusari gusoku" which has been "welded" As far as I know (I own and have seen more examples of samurai chain armor than anyone I have met) there has NEVER been even one picture to prove this statement. Japanese chain was always butted or wound several times but NEVER welded riveted, or stamped. (
Samuraiantiqueworld (
talk)
07:45, 29 March 2010 (UTC))
I am reverting the arrow resistance mention. I have seen modern scientific data that shows mail with a proper padded garment being sufficiently resistant to arrows.
At the very least the wording is misleading, the topic is a lot more complicated and deserves to be covered in it's own section. There have been no conclusive scientific tests that show a vulnerability of mail to arrows.
If mail "offered little to no protection against arrows" then a group of archers would be able to overwhelm anyone armed in only mail. Mail would be obsolete and stop being worn, which wasn't something that happened until the rise of gunpowder. Sethwoodworth 21:32, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Maille was made obsolete by the rise of better swords, and archery techniques. A standard hunting (broad head) arrow tip will probably not pierce chainmaille, and often the thick leather underneath it saved the wearer. Swords during the era of chainmaille hauberks were iron and crude steel, and lacked the structural integrity to do a stabbing technique, in which you would risk destroying the blade due to entanglement and torque. Therefore, most warriors used shields and swords for slashing techniques, which maille was very good at defending against. Once better steel started to show up in swords, and the longbow was developed (with longer armor piercing points, that lacked the broad sides to get caught by), chainmaille began to become the armor of choice among lower pay infantry, where knights started using solid breast plates, and eventually the traditional full suits of armor. Chainmaille as a main form of armor was gone long before firearms came about. --- Idiot with a gun 19:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
The mailed knights in the Hundred Years War took a beating from archers, and there were specific bodkin points made that would slide right through 3-4". However, archers were not in large use outside of England, and gunpowder followed fairly shortly. But mail stayed in use for a long time, because it was still effective against edged attacks. Mzmadmike 04:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
"There are a few sources, however, indicating that arrows could, on occasion, penetrate mail far enough to kill the wearer. At the Battle of Nicaea (1097), Albert of Aix wrote that, "Walter the Penniless fell, pierced by seven arrows which had penetrated his coat of mail." In another account Saxo wrote that the Gotlanders strung their bows so hard that their arrows could penetrate shield, hauberk, and helmet. Gerald of Wales recounted an anecdote in which a Norman was hit at close range by a Welsh arrow that penetrated his mailed leg, through his saddle, and far enough into his horse to kill it. During the Battle of Acre (1291), William de Beaujeu, Master of the Temple, was accused of cowardice when he retreated from the fighting. He lifted up his arm and replied, "Seigneurs, I can do no more, for I am dead; see the wound." An arrow had pierced him through the mail beneath his armpit – only the fletches were visible."
"Another source is the Chronicon Colmariense (1398), in which the author states that men at arms wore, "…an iron shirt, woven from iron rings, through which no arrow fired from a bow could cause injury." The very need to make this distinction implies that some other types of mail were not as capable at resisting arrows."
If the findings of the Royal Armouries testes are something like: "the armour is not invincible but is seldom punctured." then something like that should also be included in the introduction. The problem is that the statement "it is almost impossible to penetrate using any conventional medieval weapon." in the introduction should be qualified, as I certainly read it as meaning that virtually nothing could penetrate. I don't have the article so I can't quote from it, and honestly I don't have heaps of research in front of me at the moment, or heaps of time. I remember seeing tests showing that maille is very good against almost anything except very powerful bows (like the Mongol ones mentioned above) or crossbows. Also did the Royal Armouries tests include lances or spears from horseback? I find it difficult to imagine any maille withstanding the impact of a lance from horseback and there are certainly many contemporary sources and pictures that show/describe spears going straight through a knight on horseback. Master z0b ( talk) 05:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
This image from the Morgan Bible shows maille being penetrated by spears; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Morgan_Bible_10r.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Master z0b ( talk • contribs) 05:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually Mercutio.Wilder I haven't got into an edit war because I didn't make any edits, as I'm trying to be civil. Also I have provided at least one pictoral reference (Morgan bible refernece above) and a couple of written references (again above) to mail being penetrated but you ignore them. You may or may not like those sources but please don't accuse me of not providing "any contradictory evidence" when I clearly have. Again I'm just engaging in discussion here which is what this page is for. I'll do some more research and site sources for the following things and then I will edit; For starters the archeological remains of soldiers from the battle of Visby show that most wounds occur in non defended areas but not all, That's from the "Medieval Warfare Source Book, Vol. 1 Warfare in Western Christendom" David Nicolle, London: Arms and Armour Press, 1995". He also states that mail could be pierced. However I'll do the right thing and not edit until I have more sources so that at least the idea that it's debatable is undeniable. Master z0b ( talk) 01:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html 217.131.108.185 ( talk) 00:50, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
Latest reversion was made because it placed the word 'sometimes' in an improper place. Mail is made of small interlocking rings, not just sometimes. Sethwoodworth 16:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I deleted references to using mail as a Faraday cage, and alleged CURRENT military uses of it against edges. Show me some kind of cite for either, because I'm calling BS:-) 22 years in the military, licensed for electrical work, deployed with numerous NATO allies and I've never seen any mention of either, nor does any electrical supply company offer mail for that, nor would it work unless grounded, nor would anyone in the military wear mail when existing body armor will work just fine and protect against frag and bullets too. This sounds like something someone saw in a movie, or heard at a SCA event from "Some old guy" or "former Navy SEAL." Mzmadmike 04:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
It should be mentioned that the chief difference of european and asian maille is it's function. Europeans used maille as the primary armor, or as flexible joints for the groin, shoulder, or neck. Asian armors used it only for connecting large plates. The patterns they used did not 'mesh' in the same way as european patterns.
The idea that the Japanese(samurai)only used chain for connecting plates of armor and did not use it for a stand alone defense has been completely disproved. The Japanese used full suits of chain armor "kusari Gusoku" and individual pieces of chain clothing such as chain jackets or "kusari katabira". There are many pictures, discussions and items for sale of authentic antique Japanese chain armor available now online for anyone to see, just search for>>> Japanese chain armor, Japanese chain mail, Japanese chainmail,kusari katabira, kusari gusoku.(
Samuraiantiqueworld (
talk)
07:34, 29 March 2010 (UTC))
Believe or not, this has been done. Tuomas Viljanen, a Finnish Medieval re-enactor and former competive swimmer, did test swimming in sea wearing hauberk and chausses in Finland 1993. He described it extremely exhausting but certainly possible. Since mail certainly won't float and the natural body buoyance is reduced by the weight of armour, it requires great effort, but an experienced swimmer can do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.100.124.218 ( talk • contribs)
[ [5]] Another person swimming in mail.
I have added a suggested merge to move the European 4-1 page, currently a very small stub, into this article. European 4-1 is a type of chainmail, and I think it would be rather difficult to come up with much to make an entire article on just 4-1 link pattern. -- Xiliquiern 17:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I should have made note of this in my original post, but the merge will take place "After sufficient time has elapsed to generate consensus or silence (at least 5 days)" per guidelines on merging pages. -- Xiliquiern 19:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Theblindsage 09:34, 8 February 2007 (UTC) Isn't 'double mail' kind of a bunk concept? Doubling the number of rings certainly doubles the weight, but I don't think it doubles the protection. References to 'double-linked' seem to refer to 6 in 1 linkages, rather then 4 in 1 linkages. http://www.geocities.com/athens/olympus/3505/index.html
Is there any evidence for the actuality of 'bar mail', which is 4 in 1 maille with every fourth ring being punched rather then welded, riveted or butted. http://artofchainmail.com/history.html. Some sources seem to say yes ( http://www.arador.com/articles/chainmail.html) but I am unsure about what to accept.
Out of idle curiosity, why is there no woven or knitted wire armor? Given that all Maille starts life as wire, why did no one ever just make the wire directly into armor? I've found examples, but they are more curiosity then armor. http://www.golden-knots.com/mail.html
I've got a few dozen closeup photos of medieval Russian armor from the Kremlin Armoury. Would they be of use here? Rklawton 02:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't Chainmail be two separate words - 'chain mail'? Corvus coronoides Contributions MGo Blue 23:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I came to this article looking for pictures of historical mail armour. I found pictures of modern reconstructions, and descriptions of how the modern ones differ slightly from historical ones. Could someone please add pictures of surviving medieval suits? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.234.206.177 ( talk • contribs).
The caption says hauberk, but the armor shown doesn't appear to be knee-length. According to the article, the waist-length shirt of mail is supposed to be called a byrnie. Pirate Dan 16:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Can someone lead me towards a soruce that indicate that a byrnie was actually hip length?-- 82.28.44.83 ( talk) 20:22, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Tyr Anasazi from the tv series Andromeda was often seen wearing a chainmail vest as seen on this picture [6] , should this be mentioned on the article?-- TiagoTiago 20:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
It is just me or does the first paragraph not makes sense when it talks about wounds. It indicates that mail did not protect against brokenbones due to impacts, but did against cuts. Then it goes on to say that medieval medicine treats bruising and broken bones well but not infection (presumably from cuts), but then goes on to make a contradictory statement that the mail was weak at protecting the wearer from the more dangerous injuries (infering cuts), and vice versa.-- 82.28.44.83 ( talk) 00:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The following paragraph has several problems, mainly due to the fact that it makes assertions without citations, also the tone seems incorrect for a encylopedia;
The majority of this type of mail is manufactured in India using a form of mass-production. Unfortunately this style of mail lacks many of the intricacies of the period mail it is meant to replicate. But, the cost is low. However, there are a handful of people around the world who are attempting to replicate mail in a much more accurate fashion, but unfortunately only a couple seem to have gotten it correct. While this type of mail is extremely durable, its high level of labor tends to make it too cost-prohibitive for all but the most discerning collectors of reproduction armour. Many reenactors tend to prefer the use of welded steel rings that take less time to produce while offering the same protective benefits of riveted mail.
I propose changing the paragraph to read like this:
The majority of this type of mail is manufactured in India using a form of mass-production, reducing the cost. This style of mail lacks some of the intricacies of the period mail it is meant to replicate. There are a handful of people around the world who are attempting to replicate mail in a more accurate fashion.
It basically read like someone's personal opinion. Master z0b ( talk) 02:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
A recent edit described the development of armour as an arms race. I find this assertion untenable when talking about personal armour. In all instances that I am aware of the type of armour worn is dictated by socio-economic factors and technological factors.
Plate armour is frequently described as a reaction to more powerful weapons such as the couched lance, crossbow, and/or longbow. But none of these weapons were developed just before plate armour. The crossbow and couched lance predate the first plate by centuries. The crossbow had been banned by the Pope nearly a hundred years before the first known piece of plate armour. The longbow existed this early as well but was not extensively used in warfare until Agincourt in the second half of the 14th century. By that time virtually all of the French knights were wearing full plate harness and the weapon still played a significant tactical role.
There is however a connection between the development of water-powered trip hammers and the infrastructure necessary for making and then affording to buy plate armour. This explains why in appeared in between the emergence of the above weapons and not in reaction to them.
Mercutio.Wilder ( talk) 22:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "Kings Maille' just the same bunk as 'double maille' cropping up againt? Theblindsage 15:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I was always under the impression that king's maille was in the pattern European 8-in-1, and that 8-in-2 wasn't historically accurate. In all the years I've been making chain maille, I've never seen anything to the contrary; in fact, several websites specifically stated that it was not authentic. I'll try to find those again. If I can find the time, I'll also put up a picture of real king's maille. Wii Willie Wiki 20:09, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
I've read that neither is period, but king's maille is doubled european 4-1, which makes it 8-2. I might be wrong, though. -- Brego58 ( talk) 21:47, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
"Weight distribution is one of the two real drawbacks of mail..."
What's the other one? Never stated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.230.215.22 ( talk) 07:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
I was wondering whether chain mail is able to stop (small calibre) bullets. Compared to kevlar, its only slightlty heavier (eg 17 kg to 11kg), has full arm (and can even be fitted with leg) protection (unlike a kevlar vest), and finally, it's much cheaper, easier to repair, ... Finally, if simple iron doesn't suffice, perhaps titanium, carbon tubes (both expensive however) or some type of alloy could be used. Perhaps that some sections that don't need much movement (eg breast, ...) can also be welded together to be able to spread the energy better (if this area of the maille is hit). It does have drawbacks to kevlar (eg no energy spreading, not bullet proof atleast for higher calibres, ...) but I think it's still intresting to do a comparison between the 2 (it may be useful for smaller calibre bullets to heavily reduce (but not eliminate) the damage). Some info at http://www.instructables.com/community/Is-chain-maille-bullet-proof/ and http://www.instructables.com/community/Is-chain-maille-bullet-proof/ If a maille could prove useful, I'm guessing it could potentially be useful (due to its lower cost, repairability, ...) to improve the safety in violent regions (eg guatemala, ...). KVDP ( talk) 17:08, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
As of the current day mail is used as anti stab armor but not as stand alone protection against bullets. The reason for this has to do with the structure of mail. Being comprised of many relatively large pieces instead of thread it has the tendency to fragment when hit rather than absorbing energy. This makes mail great for resisting cuts and stabs as these pieces aren't easily cut but they can break. Kevlar can absorb energy but can be cut and mail can't be cut but can't absorb energy- they complement each other quite well. In my theory when a bullet would hit mail it would fragment the rings, distributing its force among many particles each with less force than the bullet. If a backing were set up that could absorb the energy of the fragments then it could be beneficial. The other part of the issue is that nobody has even made mail of modern and lightweight materials and even bullet tests of mail have it improperly made (loose and butted for example). Nobody has undergone serious testing of mail in recent times. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
173.71.166.2 (
talk)
16:03, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I have tested small mesh (17ga x 1/4"ID) 4:1 and medium mesh (14ga x 5/16"ID) 4:1 against some common bullets. The results for both were about the same: With the mail hanging free and unweighted, common .22 lead ball long rifle rounds (did not test with hollow point) fragmented and deformed the rings at point of impact and one place away, but did not break the mesh. The fragments from the larger mesh penetrated the common milk jugs (one gallon polyethylene) that I set behind them, and were retrieved from the bottom. The bullet removed one ring from the smaller mesh and was mangled, but did not penetrate the plastic.
.38spl 158gr SJHP rounds went right through both mail and jugs and were lost downrange. Rings were deformed out to eight places away from point of impact in one place in the small mesh. Large mesh only had deformation out to three rings.
In small mesh, 5.56mm NATO rounds deformed rings out to two places from point of impact but no rings were lost. In large mesh, only two rings (total) were deformed.
Apparently, the exposed lead in semijacketed rounds grab the rings and pull, where FMJ rounds just pierce and slide through easily.
Against a 1/2" plywood backing, distortion was minimal; .22lr rounds stuck in the mesh and drove the mesh into the wood, to a depth roughly equal to the width of the wire, at the deepest point. The 38spl punched through mail and wood, deforming out to two places and carrying one ring from the larger mesh and 3 rings from the smaller through the hole with it. The bullets fragmented into a mangled mess, and were retrieved from the sandbag behind the target. The 5.56mm round was about the same result, and showed a few streaks from contact with the wire, but otherwise looked pretty normal.
Just for yuks, I made some doubled 4:1 (8:2?) out of 14ga 5/16" and shot it with .22lr. It stopped the rounds completely, but the mail was so stiff that there's no way it could be worn as a suit. I didn't try it with other rounds.
BTW, All rings used in these experiments were made of common galvanized steel electric fence wire, available at most hardware or farm stores.
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Wayne (
talk •
contribs) 04:05, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
wayne (
talk) —Preceding
undated comment added
03:59, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
Is it necessary to have "unreferenced" templates at every section or is one template at the head of the article sufficient? SpinningSpark 10:05, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
The consensus on tag bombing is that this is an undesirable thing. The issue has been debated many times, most recently at Village pump (policy). In fact, the consensus at that debate was that in many cases even a banner template at the top of the article was too much and it should be moved to the references section. In this case, I would compromise on the banner template at the top, but templating every single main sub-heading seems excessive. SpinningSpark 10:05, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia Critique: Mail (armor) : by Jordan Silverman
This article is regarding a short history of mail, which is a type of armor that is made up of tiny metal rings connected together to form a mesh. This article is extremely well written as if an expert on the subject wrote it. The article laid out the history of the chainmail clearly and concisely as to avoid any confusion. Although this article’s sources are authoritative in that they include references to the Journal of Medieval History, they are somewhat incomplete because they do not provide a complete detailed account of when and where mail was invented. This shortcoming, however, is of no fault of the article, and is instead due to a lack of sufficient archaeological evidence of the invention of mail armor around the 3rd century B.C.E.
The illustrations used throughout the article are very useful and give the reader a good idea of the different styles of mail armor used in various times and locations. There are numerous pictures of mail from around the time of its invention up through the present. There are also pictures of different types of mail from Europe, China and Japan to give the reader a sense of how different mail armor was in each area respectively. This article covers the topic of mail armor thoroughly including sections on its history, etymology, effectiveness, manufacturing and modern uses. The article additionally covers the development of distinctive styles and uses for mail in different parts of the world.
The article remains unharmed by frivolous or spurious contributions. It seems to have been thoughtfully put together and sustained extremely well. The treatment of this article in Wikipedia seems to be no worse to that of a conventional encyclopedia, and in fact appears to be somewhat of an improvement. This is because with Wikipedia this article can be easily located by performing a simple search for “mail” or “chainmail”. It can also be considered an improvement on a conventional encyclopedia since it may be updated with current information as it becomes available. Though this article is a terrific source on mail armor it could be improved by mentioning the relative price of the mail armor, specifically its production, as it does not refer to the costs once during the entire article.
Ko'chuga seems to be standard mail, baidana a variant mail made of riveted 'washers', and the bakterets is the combination of mail and plate that shows up all over. http://www.xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/medievalarmor/russ30.htm Theblindsage ( talk) 08:25, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
Reference for usage in more than North Africa comes from John Thornton - Atlantic Warfare. It is not my area (the armor thing) so I am hoping someone can seek it out and add it to the Article. B/c mail was used in so-called Sub-Saharan medieval wars.-- Inayity ( talk) 13:40, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
"The Arabs and Byzantines transmitted chain mail to Europe; and a share in this movement may be attributed to the cultural exchange between East and West during the crusades." What kind of utter nonsense (is that? It's even in direct contradiction to the rest of the article. "Byzantines" as a faction did not exist prior to 4th century AD; and "Arabs" as a faction didn't exist prior to 7th century AD. Chain mail arrived in Europe or maybe was invented in Europe before 200 BC. Ölet's remove or cut shrot (by the nonsensical sentence) the Laufer quote! 2001:4DD3:9B47:0:8471:DB5A:9759:EC92 ( talk) 08:57, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/ciumesti-burial/ About the oldest recovered chain mail armour (from the chieftain grave mentioned in the article). 2001:4DD3:9B47:0:8471:DB5A:9759:EC92 ( talk) 08:59, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Mail (armour). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:18, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved ( page mover nac) Flooded with them hundreds 07:58, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
Mail (armour) → Chain mail – Per WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION and WP:COMMONNAME. Rreagan007 ( talk) 01:12, 4 November 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. – Ammarpad ( talk) 17:27, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
Boy, this was a dumb move, if only for the reason that the article title is no longer the primary term used throughout the text, which has the effect of the lead seeming to argue against the title by using "mail" and "maille" first—and then the rest of the article uses "mail" all but exclusively. There was absolutely no reason for this. None whatsoever. WP Ludicer ( talk) 08:38, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
I would suspect a link to French maillot "shirt". Maikel ( talk) 08:51, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) Melmann 20:33, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
Chain mail → Mail (armour) – Was moved incorrectly from that title, and without consensus (5-3). All reliable sources and experts in the area use "mail", as does the article itself. A redirect is sufficient to draw in the people who are mistaken about what it's called. I would have just moved it myself, but the redirect blocks me. Magic9mushroom ( talk) 05:04, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
The article claims "Sometime during the 14th century European mail makers started to transition from round rivets to wedge shaped rivets but continued using alternating rows of solid rings.", however, this is not cited. The following citation (53) does not specify when this transition occurred. OzGardi ( talk) 21:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC)