This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The article is lopsided. Starting with the fact that it talks far more about David Berger than any of the Chabad Rebbeim. There are more quotes from other sources referring to the possible future of Chabad than there are quotes regarding what Chabad believes. I'm in favor of having a seperate article about the Messianism and just a blurb on the main Chabad page. User:PhatJew
Again, it seems to me that at times, the article is less about Chabad as it is about issues related to Chabad. I think the whole section about the relationship between G-d, Israel and the Tsaddik needs to be an article in itself where we can more directly explain the concept as it was explained in sources like Tanya, Noam Elimelech, Nefesh Ha'Chaim, etc. as opposed to fitting it into just a question of Lubavitch. Someone say something, or I am going to assume shtika k'hodaah and do it. User:PhatJew
PhatJew, I agree with you the whole section about relationship between G-d, Israel and the Tsaddik needs to be an article in itself, since it isn't only a chabad thing.-- PinchasC 00:27, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am disturbed by the way that certain Chabad supporters keep accusing other Jews of lying about Chabad teachings. I can find no evidence of this. In contrast, the description of Chabad teachings about the Rebbe being God incarnate are in fact actual, they are geunine, and many within Chabad now preach this openly. I would like readers to consider the following words from an Orthodox Rabbi, from a forum "Anything About Judaism: Lubavitch forum", in which he discusses the issue:
---
Robert, I don't think many Chabad members see the Rebbe as God incarnate. This may, just be a noisy minority. Obviously all factions within Chabad edit this article, and (as Chabad in unusually internet-suave for a Hassidic group) all will try to force their POV. Myself and User:Jayjg have long reverted POV edits and suppression of obvious truths on this page.
On the whole, there is very little dialogue possible. Apart from User:Truthaboutchabad, none of these editors get a login name. When they do communicate they cite their own publications in support of their favourite POV. I think we should agree on reverting every biased edit to this article, and aim for neutrality. Do you have access to recent sociological research on the Chabad community? All Lubavitchers I know are very secretive about their stance in the matter.
What is most disheartening is that most Orthodox Jews basically agree with Chabad's outreach methods, but shun the movement because of its ridiculous insistance on making the Rebbe Moshiach. Unless they rapidly agree on a new Rebbe, they are heading for a full split with mainstream Orthodoxy. JFW | T@lk 21:46, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Rooster613 06:13, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)(Well, maybe, maybe not. The Breslov Hasidim never appointed a new rebbe when Nachman of Breslov died, and they have not become split from mainstream Orthodoxy. What is more likely to happen is that there will be a split within Lubovitch itself.) User:Rooster613
Is it too much to ask that people don't start making catagorical statements about "all of Chabad" and "all other Orthodox Jews" etc.? Isn't it OBVIOUS that these generalizations are always false? And, come on people. Chabad has always been outside of "mainstream Orthodoxy" ever since the Baal Shem Tov. Every single Chabad Rabbi starting with the Alter Rebbe has had major disputes with other Orthodox leaders. The funny thing is that, over time, the Chabad position has basically always been adopted. Let's not forget the fight over sharpening knives, mikveh bor gabei bor, etc. This is supposed to be an informative article, not a place where we try to make our predictions about the future of Chabad legitimate. User:PhatJew
Is that right, you don't believe in imposing your views on others? Well that is a view, and you impose it universally!! What a muppet!!
This article requires a discussion of how other Jews understand recent developments with Chabad. We need examples of mainstream Jewish rabbis and scholars, such as those from
The article didn't fully admit that the late Rebbe died. In many places it only refers to his "passing", which is code among some messianic Chabadniks for "hiding". Many believe that he "passed" from the visible world, but is still alive - and will return any day now. We can explain that this is their belief, but the article as such should note that he actually died.
An editor keeps making NPOV violations by cutting out most sources, and making David Berger look like some lone crackpot. Nothing in the article made clear that many (if not most) of Berger's views are widely accepted as correct among many in both the religious and secular Jewish community. I have attempted to make edits which show this. RK
RK, enough of your biased POV. Please stop ruining this for everyone.--
Truthaboutchabad 04:55, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, as you are aware, chabad is a subject which has many diffrent viewpoints to it. Until now, both viewpoints had been together on the same page and it has been basically peacefull. Neither side making massive edits, even though many people, myself included, diasagree with alot of what is written. However we understand that there is another viewpoint out there and it needed to be included, as I'm sure you had similiar thoughts about many good things being said about chabad, that you disagreed with them, however you understood that there is more than one viewpoint out there.
However the reced edits by RK, have been very one sided and anti-chabad. It misinterpets chabad teachings without giving the chabad viewpoint. Wikipedia, is not the place to have a full discussion about every detail of chabad, and every viewpoint regarding it. If I explained in detail in a way that everyone could understand the deep concepts behind chabad teachings, it would be a book not an encyclopeida article. The current contervosy section does more than enough to give the viewpoint of those that dislike tthe teachings of chabad.
Additionaly regarding the list of referances, they are mainly articles published in magazines. As you are surely aware there are thousands of articles written about chabad in a positive way. If I was to post those to counter the articles that RK listed, it would be ridiculous.
I hope this can be resolved peacefully.-- Truthaboutchabad 07:16, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have made some edits to more accuratly describe what chabad and other Hassidim actually believe in. -- Truthaboutchabad 03:47, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For those that may not understand hebrew, I have included a translation of a couple examples.
Rooster613 06:13, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)(Actually, these particular quotes are in Yiddish, not Hebrew.) User:Rooster613
That is my point. It is a subject which only when misunderstood is it considered to be heretical, hence the condemations, because these people condeming it thought that the rebbe was saying that he and G-d are one and the same. However this is clearly not so, as seen from the next paragraph in the sicha, in which the Lubavitcher Rebbe brings a source from the Zohar, and in a footnote there a Gemara Yerushalmi, in which it mentions the same things. Clearly he meant it the way it is by his proof from the Zohar and the Gemara Yerushalmi. (and as previously discussed in this talk page the only diffrence betwwen a rebbe and his follower is that the Rebbe being that he has refined himself so much, his G-dly spark is more revealed and his body doesn't do anything to go against what G-d wants, thereby making his words and actions to be the same exact as what G-d wants.
I look forward to having this section and a similiar section by the wikipedia article by the Lubavitcher Rebbe clarified once and for all.-- Truthaboutchabad 12:19, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Rooster613 06:13, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)A personal anecdote: During the 1980s when I lived in Minneapolis, I attended classes taught by Rabbi Mani Friedman, a Lubovitcher Hasid who was (still is?) the director of the Beis Chana Institute in St. Paul. Friedman also used to be the Rebbe's interpreter at many of the farbrengens. So he was/is not a fringe element. At one point I was attending a class in a baal tshuvah household (this distinction is important, read on) and Friedman clearly said that "The relationship between a Hasid and his Rebbe is MORE IMPORTANT than the relationship with God." When I asked point blank if the Rebbe was God, he replied "Yes." He also believed that the Rebbe was Moschiach. When I began to question these things in the class, I was asked to leave and not come back. Apparently I had gotten into some sort of "initiation" group that I wasn't supposed to know about, because I was pointedly told that "this is not a public class, it's especially for them" (the baal tshuvah family, who in their innocence had invited me to come that night). At any rate, this incident is what made me stop going to Lubavitch House and follow the Breslov way instead. User:Rooster613
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The article is lopsided. Starting with the fact that it talks far more about David Berger than any of the Chabad Rebbeim. There are more quotes from other sources referring to the possible future of Chabad than there are quotes regarding what Chabad believes. I'm in favor of having a seperate article about the Messianism and just a blurb on the main Chabad page. User:PhatJew
Again, it seems to me that at times, the article is less about Chabad as it is about issues related to Chabad. I think the whole section about the relationship between G-d, Israel and the Tsaddik needs to be an article in itself where we can more directly explain the concept as it was explained in sources like Tanya, Noam Elimelech, Nefesh Ha'Chaim, etc. as opposed to fitting it into just a question of Lubavitch. Someone say something, or I am going to assume shtika k'hodaah and do it. User:PhatJew
PhatJew, I agree with you the whole section about relationship between G-d, Israel and the Tsaddik needs to be an article in itself, since it isn't only a chabad thing.-- PinchasC 00:27, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am disturbed by the way that certain Chabad supporters keep accusing other Jews of lying about Chabad teachings. I can find no evidence of this. In contrast, the description of Chabad teachings about the Rebbe being God incarnate are in fact actual, they are geunine, and many within Chabad now preach this openly. I would like readers to consider the following words from an Orthodox Rabbi, from a forum "Anything About Judaism: Lubavitch forum", in which he discusses the issue:
---
Robert, I don't think many Chabad members see the Rebbe as God incarnate. This may, just be a noisy minority. Obviously all factions within Chabad edit this article, and (as Chabad in unusually internet-suave for a Hassidic group) all will try to force their POV. Myself and User:Jayjg have long reverted POV edits and suppression of obvious truths on this page.
On the whole, there is very little dialogue possible. Apart from User:Truthaboutchabad, none of these editors get a login name. When they do communicate they cite their own publications in support of their favourite POV. I think we should agree on reverting every biased edit to this article, and aim for neutrality. Do you have access to recent sociological research on the Chabad community? All Lubavitchers I know are very secretive about their stance in the matter.
What is most disheartening is that most Orthodox Jews basically agree with Chabad's outreach methods, but shun the movement because of its ridiculous insistance on making the Rebbe Moshiach. Unless they rapidly agree on a new Rebbe, they are heading for a full split with mainstream Orthodoxy. JFW | T@lk 21:46, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Rooster613 06:13, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)(Well, maybe, maybe not. The Breslov Hasidim never appointed a new rebbe when Nachman of Breslov died, and they have not become split from mainstream Orthodoxy. What is more likely to happen is that there will be a split within Lubovitch itself.) User:Rooster613
Is it too much to ask that people don't start making catagorical statements about "all of Chabad" and "all other Orthodox Jews" etc.? Isn't it OBVIOUS that these generalizations are always false? And, come on people. Chabad has always been outside of "mainstream Orthodoxy" ever since the Baal Shem Tov. Every single Chabad Rabbi starting with the Alter Rebbe has had major disputes with other Orthodox leaders. The funny thing is that, over time, the Chabad position has basically always been adopted. Let's not forget the fight over sharpening knives, mikveh bor gabei bor, etc. This is supposed to be an informative article, not a place where we try to make our predictions about the future of Chabad legitimate. User:PhatJew
Is that right, you don't believe in imposing your views on others? Well that is a view, and you impose it universally!! What a muppet!!
This article requires a discussion of how other Jews understand recent developments with Chabad. We need examples of mainstream Jewish rabbis and scholars, such as those from
The article didn't fully admit that the late Rebbe died. In many places it only refers to his "passing", which is code among some messianic Chabadniks for "hiding". Many believe that he "passed" from the visible world, but is still alive - and will return any day now. We can explain that this is their belief, but the article as such should note that he actually died.
An editor keeps making NPOV violations by cutting out most sources, and making David Berger look like some lone crackpot. Nothing in the article made clear that many (if not most) of Berger's views are widely accepted as correct among many in both the religious and secular Jewish community. I have attempted to make edits which show this. RK
RK, enough of your biased POV. Please stop ruining this for everyone.--
Truthaboutchabad 04:55, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, as you are aware, chabad is a subject which has many diffrent viewpoints to it. Until now, both viewpoints had been together on the same page and it has been basically peacefull. Neither side making massive edits, even though many people, myself included, diasagree with alot of what is written. However we understand that there is another viewpoint out there and it needed to be included, as I'm sure you had similiar thoughts about many good things being said about chabad, that you disagreed with them, however you understood that there is more than one viewpoint out there.
However the reced edits by RK, have been very one sided and anti-chabad. It misinterpets chabad teachings without giving the chabad viewpoint. Wikipedia, is not the place to have a full discussion about every detail of chabad, and every viewpoint regarding it. If I explained in detail in a way that everyone could understand the deep concepts behind chabad teachings, it would be a book not an encyclopeida article. The current contervosy section does more than enough to give the viewpoint of those that dislike tthe teachings of chabad.
Additionaly regarding the list of referances, they are mainly articles published in magazines. As you are surely aware there are thousands of articles written about chabad in a positive way. If I was to post those to counter the articles that RK listed, it would be ridiculous.
I hope this can be resolved peacefully.-- Truthaboutchabad 07:16, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have made some edits to more accuratly describe what chabad and other Hassidim actually believe in. -- Truthaboutchabad 03:47, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For those that may not understand hebrew, I have included a translation of a couple examples.
Rooster613 06:13, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)(Actually, these particular quotes are in Yiddish, not Hebrew.) User:Rooster613
That is my point. It is a subject which only when misunderstood is it considered to be heretical, hence the condemations, because these people condeming it thought that the rebbe was saying that he and G-d are one and the same. However this is clearly not so, as seen from the next paragraph in the sicha, in which the Lubavitcher Rebbe brings a source from the Zohar, and in a footnote there a Gemara Yerushalmi, in which it mentions the same things. Clearly he meant it the way it is by his proof from the Zohar and the Gemara Yerushalmi. (and as previously discussed in this talk page the only diffrence betwwen a rebbe and his follower is that the Rebbe being that he has refined himself so much, his G-dly spark is more revealed and his body doesn't do anything to go against what G-d wants, thereby making his words and actions to be the same exact as what G-d wants.
I look forward to having this section and a similiar section by the wikipedia article by the Lubavitcher Rebbe clarified once and for all.-- Truthaboutchabad 12:19, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Rooster613 06:13, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)A personal anecdote: During the 1980s when I lived in Minneapolis, I attended classes taught by Rabbi Mani Friedman, a Lubovitcher Hasid who was (still is?) the director of the Beis Chana Institute in St. Paul. Friedman also used to be the Rebbe's interpreter at many of the farbrengens. So he was/is not a fringe element. At one point I was attending a class in a baal tshuvah household (this distinction is important, read on) and Friedman clearly said that "The relationship between a Hasid and his Rebbe is MORE IMPORTANT than the relationship with God." When I asked point blank if the Rebbe was God, he replied "Yes." He also believed that the Rebbe was Moschiach. When I began to question these things in the class, I was asked to leave and not come back. Apparently I had gotten into some sort of "initiation" group that I wasn't supposed to know about, because I was pointedly told that "this is not a public class, it's especially for them" (the baal tshuvah family, who in their innocence had invited me to come that night). At any rate, this incident is what made me stop going to Lubavitch House and follow the Breslov way instead. User:Rooster613