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I think this article needs more information about the cultural aspects of the peace pipe. The information on materials and craftsmanship is excellent, but it's not quite what I was hoping to learn about when I visited this page. — ptk✰ fgs 07:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Though I would like to contribute, unfortunately there are restrictions and I'm afraid to face any law suits from Prentice Hall Press if I was to quote anything from Sun Bear's book "The Path of Power" (1983, Prentice Hall Press, New York, ISBN 0-13-653403-1)where he gives an excellent explanation of the spiritual meaning of the peace pipe in his chapter called "Ceremonies and Medicine Objects" as it's mentioned that all rights are reserved on the first page.
I'd like to point out that the person known as "Sun Bear" is not a reputable source, and quoting from that book would be useless anyway.
The [citation needed] points neglect the fact that some of this knowledge is oral in nature, and an elder with known good reputation and knowledge would be able to confirm / deny those, and be considered "expert knowledge" (the cultural differences here are wide, but not inescapable ;) ). According to what I was taught, however, those statements are true.
Um, you want all the cultural aspects here? :). Which culture? We're not exactly a homogeneous mass here. We do share some similarities, but things can differ from nation to nation, and from tradition to tradition. Be careful with this "pan-Indianism" thing. SimonRaven ( talk) 21:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I have the impression that the tribes and those who know are reluctant to share their most intimate customs with outsiders. We probably don't know "all the cultural aspects". I believe there is a certain amount of disinformation dispersed also. Lynxx2 ( talk) 08:19, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
I just changed the article to say that the most common herb smoked was tobacco. Marijuana was only introduced to North America fairly recently. I can provide plenty of citations if necessary. Please don't change it back to marijuana as marijuana is a huge misconception.
Marijuana does make some sense, because it has a calming effect. but the pipe was smoked before war just as much as after it 24.254.141.144 18:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
here are some online refferences
24.254.141.144 18:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
According to the Wikipedia article on the subject, the Ruppell's Vulture is the highest flying bird, not the eagle, having been sighted at 37,000 ft (albeit briefly as it smacked into the airplane that also happened to be flying at that particular height. I don't know in what way that section should be reworded so I started the discussion page topic to discuss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.228.171.140 ( talk) 02:38, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, biological facts and traditional religious legends or tales can differ sometimes. In religion, it's usually all about symbolism. If we measure religious things along scientific evidence it'll all fall apart, I'm afraid. Then we'll get to unanswerable questions like: Did Adam & Eve have navels? How did Eve ever come out of his rib? How did mankind survive if Adam & Eve had no daughters and Caine slayed his only brother? How did the Egyptian plagues come about? Etc. etc. In religion we're not supposed to take everything literally. Furthermore, I don't know about the Ruppell's Vulture and whether this bird would be indigenous to America, so that Native Americans could have spotted this high flyiong bird? Besides, would you expect the Great Spirit to sit on a cloud there at 37,000 feet? Please don't appraoch spirituality too scientifically? Theo, Amsterdam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.162.133.112 ( talk) 18:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
I've just been checking now and found out that the Ruppell's Vulture is an African bird, so that only underlines my argument that we really should be seperating religious symbolism from biology. Why bring it up in the first place? Native Americans didn't see this vulture and if they'd do now it's by visiting a zoo where the bird is even unable to reach these high altitudes (how large would the cage have to be?). Conclusion: eagle feathers are only rightly used in religious ceremonies. Theo, Amsterdam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.162.133.112 ( talk) 07:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I found a decent reference, and probably can find more. Email me (from my user page) Ling.Nut ( talk) 03:37, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
"Peace Pipe" is an inappropriate name for an article that attempts to cover ceremonial pipes in general, and is a bit offensive in this usage. Need to look over related articles and do some serious restructuring and sourcing here. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 19:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I changed the word "drugs" to "materials" as I feel it is more fitting in a ceremonial setting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.175.233.162 ( talk) 05:16, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
So we know 'calumet' is a norman word and 'peace pipe' is an overgeneralization.. shouldn't we hear the names the actual natives used? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.130.241 ( talk) 22:30, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
@ Paine Ellsworth: I'm not sure what to do about you wanting a source about the misnomer "peace pipe" being offensive. It's a common misnomer in non-Native sources, that has sometimes been repeated by Natives from nations that do not use sacred pipes, or who are not part of traditional ceremonial culture. But that doesn't change the fact that those it's referring to find it offensive. When sourcing things on Indigenous articles, and you can check our wikiprojects on this, we sometimes have to be a bit different from other WP topics with sourcing, due to the nature of so many sources having been written by cultural outsiders, combined with the fact that most ceremonial things are simply not discussed with outsiders. Because the misnomer is so common, I agree it deserves mention and redirects, but it's really a slap in the face to traditional people to have it right up top like that. I'm sorry if "slap in the face" sounds overly adamant or overly emotional for a discussion on WP, but I don't think downplaying this is appropriate, either. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 19:20, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't see the bias of which you write. The article explains quite well that the term "peace pipe" only applies to a single type of ceremonial calumet and only to one of several aspects of the meaning of that single type of "calumet". Where's the bias? Don't concern yourself that I've been a member of WikiProject Countering systemic bias for several years. If there is truly bias here, then I am all for eliminating it. I am definitely not for eliminating an informative bit of material just to satisfy the descendents of the makers of one single type of calumet who may be offended by the term. That would be bias in the other direction, if I'm not mistaken, wouldn't it?
To illustrate, suppose there were a single group of people who made a type of doll. This doll was called by many names, but only two names became historic, "Tandai" and other-language construct, "Evil doll". The doll had actually been made by several similar types of people. It actually had more than one meaning and application, some of which were "good" and some of which were "evil". Some editor decides to write an encyclopedic article on the "Evil doll", then later another editor decides that the article should be titled "Tandai". A disambiguation page is created called "Evil doll (disambiguation)". Keep in mind that this is all treated in an encyclopedic manner. It is explained in the Tandai article that the term "Evil doll" is a construct that applied to one type of tandai and only one meaning of several meanings. A hatnote is placed to inform readers who come to the Tandai page that a page that disambiguates the "Evil doll" term, which has records, albums and bands named for it, exists. That is just in case a reader has come to the Tandai page, but is looking for a different meaning of "evil doll". Then several years later the descendents of the people who made tandais become offended by the "evil doll" term. Many of those offended are not even descendents of the original small group! They are offended because their ancestors also made tandais, and the term is now sometimes confused with "evil doll". So the systemic bias question arises, should the encyclopedia delete the informative hatnote and redirect "Evil doll" to the dab page? Should a note be made on the dab page that "evil doll" is an offensive term? Perhaps we should; however, I don't feel that it is responsible of us to do so unless there are reliable sources that confirm both the offensiveness and the bias. The irresponsibility lies in the fact that without reliable sources, it is still just non-neutral POV (a Five Pillar issue). – Painius 02:17, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
No one in Indian Country refers to a ceremonial pipe as a "Calumet." The page only wound up at this title as it was less offensive/inappropriate than "peace pipe." - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 19:12, 17 August 2015 (UTC) Paine Ellsworth, I don't think you have consensus for the redirect. I also propose we rename this to something like Montanabw has suggested, such as ceremonial pipe or ceremonial pipe (Native American). I don't think we need "smoking" in the name. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 19:21, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Paine, you don't have consensus to keep this as it is, and we don't need permission to move it. I brought this up a while ago, and your views here are not in the majority. Quit reverting the changes unless you get consensus to do so. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 19:38, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
I am going to be bold and move the page. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 19:53, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
To editor Pigman: It is appreciated that you may not be aware of the dispute that is presently ongoing in the above #"Peace pipe" thread, on the Peace pipe (disambiguation) page, and with the Peace pipe redirect. So please return this page to status quo so that another involved editor can, if it is wished, begin a request for move of this page to garner consensus for it. As it is now, there is no consensus to move this page from Calumet (pipe). Thank you for your consideration in this matter. – Painius 01:43, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
I have taken care of this for you, as I'm sure you must be away temporarily or you would have self reverted based on the fact that this is a contentious issue on this talk page. Joys! – Painius 10:22, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
My contention is that this article is indeed about the term "calumet" as it was used by the Norman French settlers in Canada. It is also about the relation of calumets to other similar ceremonial pipes used by Native Americans in Canada and the US territories. I shall be happy to use this rationale as an oppose !vote if a requested move process is begun. And if support rationales can be shown to outweigh my views, then I shall be happy to go along with the consensus. – Painius 10:37, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
The usage and topic of Peace Pipe is under discussion, see talk:Peace pipe (disambiguation) -- 67.70.32.190 ( talk) 04:45, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Ceremonial pipe. VQuakr ( talk) 02:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC) VQuakr ( talk) 02:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Calumet (pipe) →
Ceremonial pipe (Native American) – No Native people, nor anyone familiar with the topic, refers to a ceremonial pipe as a "Calumet." The page only wound up at this title as it was less offensive/inappropriate than "peace pipe." We had a discussion. Three established editors, two of us admins, agree it should go at the less colonial, more contemporary name (Ceremonial pipe). I also made improvements to the article to stop placing Native Americans solely in the past, and to stop privileging an outsider, colonial view in both the descriptions and naming conventions. Paine Ellsworth went against the three of us to repeatedly move the page back and revert all improvements to the text, pushing a POV that Native people and ceremonies no longer exist (Diffs:
[1]
[2]
[3]). I don't think this move is controversial. I have to stress that there are systemic bias issues here, and I humbly request that anyone commenting here be at least somewhat familiar with the issues we deal with at
Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America -
CorbieV
☊
☼ 15:55, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
I hope the people in this discussion don't mind; I would like to propose an alternative to renaming this page. This page contains the history, i.e., the etymology of the term "calumet", which is what I feel makes this page title so important. I propose that the move requestor create the page name of their choice – my humble suggestion would be to name it Smoking pipe (ceremonial) to make it a qualified Smoking pipe page – and use all, most, some of the content of this article to construct that page. Content that is used in the created article from this page may be deleted from this page at the creator's discretion, to except only the etymology of this term, "calumet". That should be the content that remains on this page and at this page title. It is my sincere wish that this alternative will be considered and performed, and that all here who feel I've in any way offended them will please forgive me. I am old and set in my ways and have been in many situations where my words were wrong even though I thought them to be correct, so I ask that I be forgiven for any transgressions I have made here on this talk page. Thank you for reading, and Joys to all! – Painius 14:00, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
MBW has twice reverted my prose ( [7]); the first time was stealthy: ( [8]), and the most recent one: ( [9]) leaves us with "certain sacred ceremonies". As much as I like alliteration, this lispy tongue twister is not something you would expect to find in our very best writing, and I don't want to edit war over this sentence. What shall we do? RO (talk) 23:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
To take above comment of User:CorbieVreccan in to account at Meta I have started meta:Requests for comment/Is their a failuer of wikimedia movement and wikipedia culture to take native american cultures and people in confidance? if so, then why ? Your inputs are most welcome Mahitgar ( talk) 04:35, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I think this article needs more information about the cultural aspects of the peace pipe. The information on materials and craftsmanship is excellent, but it's not quite what I was hoping to learn about when I visited this page. — ptk✰ fgs 07:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Though I would like to contribute, unfortunately there are restrictions and I'm afraid to face any law suits from Prentice Hall Press if I was to quote anything from Sun Bear's book "The Path of Power" (1983, Prentice Hall Press, New York, ISBN 0-13-653403-1)where he gives an excellent explanation of the spiritual meaning of the peace pipe in his chapter called "Ceremonies and Medicine Objects" as it's mentioned that all rights are reserved on the first page.
I'd like to point out that the person known as "Sun Bear" is not a reputable source, and quoting from that book would be useless anyway.
The [citation needed] points neglect the fact that some of this knowledge is oral in nature, and an elder with known good reputation and knowledge would be able to confirm / deny those, and be considered "expert knowledge" (the cultural differences here are wide, but not inescapable ;) ). According to what I was taught, however, those statements are true.
Um, you want all the cultural aspects here? :). Which culture? We're not exactly a homogeneous mass here. We do share some similarities, but things can differ from nation to nation, and from tradition to tradition. Be careful with this "pan-Indianism" thing. SimonRaven ( talk) 21:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I have the impression that the tribes and those who know are reluctant to share their most intimate customs with outsiders. We probably don't know "all the cultural aspects". I believe there is a certain amount of disinformation dispersed also. Lynxx2 ( talk) 08:19, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
I just changed the article to say that the most common herb smoked was tobacco. Marijuana was only introduced to North America fairly recently. I can provide plenty of citations if necessary. Please don't change it back to marijuana as marijuana is a huge misconception.
Marijuana does make some sense, because it has a calming effect. but the pipe was smoked before war just as much as after it 24.254.141.144 18:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
here are some online refferences
24.254.141.144 18:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
According to the Wikipedia article on the subject, the Ruppell's Vulture is the highest flying bird, not the eagle, having been sighted at 37,000 ft (albeit briefly as it smacked into the airplane that also happened to be flying at that particular height. I don't know in what way that section should be reworded so I started the discussion page topic to discuss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.228.171.140 ( talk) 02:38, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, biological facts and traditional religious legends or tales can differ sometimes. In religion, it's usually all about symbolism. If we measure religious things along scientific evidence it'll all fall apart, I'm afraid. Then we'll get to unanswerable questions like: Did Adam & Eve have navels? How did Eve ever come out of his rib? How did mankind survive if Adam & Eve had no daughters and Caine slayed his only brother? How did the Egyptian plagues come about? Etc. etc. In religion we're not supposed to take everything literally. Furthermore, I don't know about the Ruppell's Vulture and whether this bird would be indigenous to America, so that Native Americans could have spotted this high flyiong bird? Besides, would you expect the Great Spirit to sit on a cloud there at 37,000 feet? Please don't appraoch spirituality too scientifically? Theo, Amsterdam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.162.133.112 ( talk) 18:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
I've just been checking now and found out that the Ruppell's Vulture is an African bird, so that only underlines my argument that we really should be seperating religious symbolism from biology. Why bring it up in the first place? Native Americans didn't see this vulture and if they'd do now it's by visiting a zoo where the bird is even unable to reach these high altitudes (how large would the cage have to be?). Conclusion: eagle feathers are only rightly used in religious ceremonies. Theo, Amsterdam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.162.133.112 ( talk) 07:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I found a decent reference, and probably can find more. Email me (from my user page) Ling.Nut ( talk) 03:37, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
"Peace Pipe" is an inappropriate name for an article that attempts to cover ceremonial pipes in general, and is a bit offensive in this usage. Need to look over related articles and do some serious restructuring and sourcing here. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 19:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I changed the word "drugs" to "materials" as I feel it is more fitting in a ceremonial setting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.175.233.162 ( talk) 05:16, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
So we know 'calumet' is a norman word and 'peace pipe' is an overgeneralization.. shouldn't we hear the names the actual natives used? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.130.241 ( talk) 22:30, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
@ Paine Ellsworth: I'm not sure what to do about you wanting a source about the misnomer "peace pipe" being offensive. It's a common misnomer in non-Native sources, that has sometimes been repeated by Natives from nations that do not use sacred pipes, or who are not part of traditional ceremonial culture. But that doesn't change the fact that those it's referring to find it offensive. When sourcing things on Indigenous articles, and you can check our wikiprojects on this, we sometimes have to be a bit different from other WP topics with sourcing, due to the nature of so many sources having been written by cultural outsiders, combined with the fact that most ceremonial things are simply not discussed with outsiders. Because the misnomer is so common, I agree it deserves mention and redirects, but it's really a slap in the face to traditional people to have it right up top like that. I'm sorry if "slap in the face" sounds overly adamant or overly emotional for a discussion on WP, but I don't think downplaying this is appropriate, either. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 19:20, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't see the bias of which you write. The article explains quite well that the term "peace pipe" only applies to a single type of ceremonial calumet and only to one of several aspects of the meaning of that single type of "calumet". Where's the bias? Don't concern yourself that I've been a member of WikiProject Countering systemic bias for several years. If there is truly bias here, then I am all for eliminating it. I am definitely not for eliminating an informative bit of material just to satisfy the descendents of the makers of one single type of calumet who may be offended by the term. That would be bias in the other direction, if I'm not mistaken, wouldn't it?
To illustrate, suppose there were a single group of people who made a type of doll. This doll was called by many names, but only two names became historic, "Tandai" and other-language construct, "Evil doll". The doll had actually been made by several similar types of people. It actually had more than one meaning and application, some of which were "good" and some of which were "evil". Some editor decides to write an encyclopedic article on the "Evil doll", then later another editor decides that the article should be titled "Tandai". A disambiguation page is created called "Evil doll (disambiguation)". Keep in mind that this is all treated in an encyclopedic manner. It is explained in the Tandai article that the term "Evil doll" is a construct that applied to one type of tandai and only one meaning of several meanings. A hatnote is placed to inform readers who come to the Tandai page that a page that disambiguates the "Evil doll" term, which has records, albums and bands named for it, exists. That is just in case a reader has come to the Tandai page, but is looking for a different meaning of "evil doll". Then several years later the descendents of the people who made tandais become offended by the "evil doll" term. Many of those offended are not even descendents of the original small group! They are offended because their ancestors also made tandais, and the term is now sometimes confused with "evil doll". So the systemic bias question arises, should the encyclopedia delete the informative hatnote and redirect "Evil doll" to the dab page? Should a note be made on the dab page that "evil doll" is an offensive term? Perhaps we should; however, I don't feel that it is responsible of us to do so unless there are reliable sources that confirm both the offensiveness and the bias. The irresponsibility lies in the fact that without reliable sources, it is still just non-neutral POV (a Five Pillar issue). – Painius 02:17, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
No one in Indian Country refers to a ceremonial pipe as a "Calumet." The page only wound up at this title as it was less offensive/inappropriate than "peace pipe." - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 19:12, 17 August 2015 (UTC) Paine Ellsworth, I don't think you have consensus for the redirect. I also propose we rename this to something like Montanabw has suggested, such as ceremonial pipe or ceremonial pipe (Native American). I don't think we need "smoking" in the name. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 19:21, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Paine, you don't have consensus to keep this as it is, and we don't need permission to move it. I brought this up a while ago, and your views here are not in the majority. Quit reverting the changes unless you get consensus to do so. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 19:38, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
I am going to be bold and move the page. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 19:53, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
To editor Pigman: It is appreciated that you may not be aware of the dispute that is presently ongoing in the above #"Peace pipe" thread, on the Peace pipe (disambiguation) page, and with the Peace pipe redirect. So please return this page to status quo so that another involved editor can, if it is wished, begin a request for move of this page to garner consensus for it. As it is now, there is no consensus to move this page from Calumet (pipe). Thank you for your consideration in this matter. – Painius 01:43, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
I have taken care of this for you, as I'm sure you must be away temporarily or you would have self reverted based on the fact that this is a contentious issue on this talk page. Joys! – Painius 10:22, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
My contention is that this article is indeed about the term "calumet" as it was used by the Norman French settlers in Canada. It is also about the relation of calumets to other similar ceremonial pipes used by Native Americans in Canada and the US territories. I shall be happy to use this rationale as an oppose !vote if a requested move process is begun. And if support rationales can be shown to outweigh my views, then I shall be happy to go along with the consensus. – Painius 10:37, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
The usage and topic of Peace Pipe is under discussion, see talk:Peace pipe (disambiguation) -- 67.70.32.190 ( talk) 04:45, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to Ceremonial pipe. VQuakr ( talk) 02:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC) VQuakr ( talk) 02:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Calumet (pipe) →
Ceremonial pipe (Native American) – No Native people, nor anyone familiar with the topic, refers to a ceremonial pipe as a "Calumet." The page only wound up at this title as it was less offensive/inappropriate than "peace pipe." We had a discussion. Three established editors, two of us admins, agree it should go at the less colonial, more contemporary name (Ceremonial pipe). I also made improvements to the article to stop placing Native Americans solely in the past, and to stop privileging an outsider, colonial view in both the descriptions and naming conventions. Paine Ellsworth went against the three of us to repeatedly move the page back and revert all improvements to the text, pushing a POV that Native people and ceremonies no longer exist (Diffs:
[1]
[2]
[3]). I don't think this move is controversial. I have to stress that there are systemic bias issues here, and I humbly request that anyone commenting here be at least somewhat familiar with the issues we deal with at
Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America -
CorbieV
☊
☼ 15:55, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
I hope the people in this discussion don't mind; I would like to propose an alternative to renaming this page. This page contains the history, i.e., the etymology of the term "calumet", which is what I feel makes this page title so important. I propose that the move requestor create the page name of their choice – my humble suggestion would be to name it Smoking pipe (ceremonial) to make it a qualified Smoking pipe page – and use all, most, some of the content of this article to construct that page. Content that is used in the created article from this page may be deleted from this page at the creator's discretion, to except only the etymology of this term, "calumet". That should be the content that remains on this page and at this page title. It is my sincere wish that this alternative will be considered and performed, and that all here who feel I've in any way offended them will please forgive me. I am old and set in my ways and have been in many situations where my words were wrong even though I thought them to be correct, so I ask that I be forgiven for any transgressions I have made here on this talk page. Thank you for reading, and Joys to all! – Painius 14:00, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
MBW has twice reverted my prose ( [7]); the first time was stealthy: ( [8]), and the most recent one: ( [9]) leaves us with "certain sacred ceremonies". As much as I like alliteration, this lispy tongue twister is not something you would expect to find in our very best writing, and I don't want to edit war over this sentence. What shall we do? RO (talk) 23:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
To take above comment of User:CorbieVreccan in to account at Meta I have started meta:Requests for comment/Is their a failuer of wikimedia movement and wikipedia culture to take native american cultures and people in confidance? if so, then why ? Your inputs are most welcome Mahitgar ( talk) 04:35, 21 October 2015 (UTC)