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Archive 1 |
Do we know for certain that the change took place along with the introduction of county councils? I left that obscure deliberately, because my source doesn't state either way. Morwen 16:25, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Isn't a ceremonial county of England the same as a Traditional County? Is this a double entry? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_counties_of_the_British_Isles
-Simon Brunger
Where does the idea that Ceremonial county is aka Geographic[al] county come from? What sort of county is non-geographical?
As above, 'ceremonial county' is well-defined and uses current local authority borders. 'Traditional county' refers to the counties that existed before the 1889 reforms. The confusion comes from unitary and upper tier local authorities that call themselves and/or the areas they cover 'counties'.
-Colin Newman
I sent an email to the Lord Lieutenant of Cambridgeshire's office and got this reply
Morwen - Talk 18:24, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I dispute the inclusion of Cornwall as a ceremonial county of England. Cornwall is not a ceremonial county of England, there is plenty of evidence to suggest it is in fact a Duchy please see the Cornish time line provided by Cornwall 'County' Council [ [1]] Also please visit the website of the Cornish Stannery Parliament [ [2]]. There are plenty of documents to indicate that all of Cornwall is a Duchy and that the Duchy of Cornwall constitutionally does not equate to the Dukes estates. Ceremonially the Queen takes the role of a visiting head of state when in Cornwall and the Duke takes the role of Head of State. This applies to anywhere in Cornwall not just on the Duchy estates. When a swan or sturgeon are caught in Cornwall they are ceremonially presented to the Duke of Cornwall not the Queen.
1855-58 The legal arguments of Sir George Harrison, Attorney General to the Duchy of Cornwall, defeat the Crown's aspirations of sovereignty of the Cornish foreshore. The Duchy that Cornwall argues the Duke has sovereignty of Cornwall and not the Crown.
1856 On behalf of the Duchy in its successful action against the Crown, which resulted in the Cornwall Submarine Mines Act of 1858, Sir George Harrison (Attorney General for Cornwall) makes this submission. That Cornwall, like Wales, was at the time of the Conquest, and was subsequently treated in many respects as distinct from England. That it was held by the Earls of Cornwall with the rights and prerogative of a County Palatine, as far as regarded the Seignory or territorial dominion. That the Dukes of Cornwall have from the creation of the Duchy enjoyed the rights and prerogatives of a County Palatine, as far as regarded seignory or territorial dominion, and that to a great extent by Earls. That when the Earldom was augmented into a Duchy, the circumstances attending to it's creation, as well as the language of the Duchy Charter, not only support and confirm natural presumption, that the new and higher title was to be accompanied with at least as great dignity, power, and prerogative as the Earls enjoyed, but also afforded evidence that the Duchy was to be invested with still more extensive rights and privileges. The Duchy Charters have always been construed and treated, not merley by the Courts of Judicature, but also by the Legislature of the Country, as having vested in the Dukes of Cornwall the whole territorial interest and dominion of the Crown in and over the entire County of Cornwall. Thenceforth mineral rights above the Low Water Mark belonged to the Duchy and below it to the Crown.
1863 The Duchy of Cornwall Management Act confirms that the Duke possesses seignory and territorial rights befitting a king.
1969-71 Kilbrandon Report into the British constitution recommends that, when referring to Cornwall - official sources should cite the Duchy not the County. This was suggested in recognition of its constitutional position.
1974 Reform of Cornish Stannary Parliament
1977 The Stannators right to veto Westminster legislation is confirmed by Parliament.
2001 (April) A sturgeon is caught off Cadgwith and is offered to the Duke of Cornwall. When landed in other parts of Britain the fish is customarily offered to the monarch.
In contrast to every English and Welsh county the High Sheriff of Cornwall is appointed by the Duke of Cornwall not by the Crown. For reference see page 72 of Cornwall a history by Philip Payton of Exeter university.
I have added a short note in the history section which points out the fact that in Cornwall can be found many people who disagree with its English county status, Cornwall is the only 'county' like this and is worth noting. Fulub le Breton 7/2/05
Added the following link
Bretagne 44 14:44, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
I have attempted to bring the High Sheriff article up to some kind of reasonable standard and am having trouble traking down the areas they cover. I assume that there is a High Sheriff for each ceremonial county but, according to the list here there is one High Sheriff for Herefordshire & Worcestershire but according to this article these are two counties, which makes me doubt my assumption. Is this page out of date? Have the ceremonial counties been changed? Do High Sheriffs and Lord-Lieutenants cover different areas? Any sugestions would be most helpful. Andreww 04:35, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
What on earth is going on here? I can think of no reason for this article to be moved from Ceremonial counties of England. I recommend a speedy revert. MRSC 19:31, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Who changed my title from Boroughs of England? "Borough" is the more official and used term. The 47 boroughs are the most basic equivalent to provincial government in England. SuperWikiman 09:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone/is is possible to make the map interactive, so you click on a county and it comes up witht he article? If so, this should be done. Benjaminstewart05 12:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
So, what sort of sourcing would be needed for this claim to be kept in? I can come up with many references from government and official sites using such a terminology. As an example [4] has Yvette Cooper noting that "The geographical county of Lancashire is made up of 12 district authorities and 2 unitary authorities". And conveniently now Encyclopedia Britannica is unacceptable as a source. This removal of valid, verifiable information because certain editors happen to disagree with is rather worrying.
Morwen - Talk 12:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Could the geographic centres of the counties be integrated into either this article or elsewhere in Wikipedia?
http://www.geograph.org.uk/explore/counties.php
David 16:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi, how do I change the "County Durham" to "Durham" on the map? I can't seem to be able to do it either on this page or the linked iamge. Thanks. Logoistic 09:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Is the term "Ceremonial county" official, or was it coined by someone unknown who doesn't have official sanction? These "Ceremonial counties" in England have a lord lieutenant, yet in Scotland they are called "Lieutenancy areas". Is there an official reference/citation to state that the term "Ceremonial county" is official? There is a Lieutenancies Act 1997, not a "Ceremonial counties Act 1997". Could some explain how this term gained acceptance and is it official? Cayden (talk) 22:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I have wondered about this. You can find 'ceremonial county' in Hansard debates [8] and from National statistics. [9] I'm confident we are reflecting real-world practice. MRSC • Talk 14:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The
Wirral seems to have got chopped off the map. Merseyside should have two parts, one on each side of the river Mersey. On the map, only the Liverpool side is shown; the Wirral seems to have floated off somewhere. Unless coastal erosion has stepped up recently, I think that the map should be altered to bring the Wirral back.
Epa101 (
talk)
11:31, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
If the user's window size is less than about 900 pixels wide, the map disappears - even though it itself is only 448 px wide. Can this be fixed? --
John Maynard Friedman (
talk)
00:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
The map is too small, so all the names get jumbled up and the map is unreadable.
82.139.86.4 (
talk)
17:36, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I am just looking at reducing some of the areas where citations have been requested on the
Buckinghamshire page, and one such area is where it states that Milton Keynes is part of Bucks for ceremonial purposes. I can find nothing on a google search that easily verifies that this is the case. Is anyone able to give me a good reference for MK being part of ceremonial Bucks? --
role
player 13:36, 8 December 2011 (UTC):Here you are
[10]
Lozleader (
talk)
15:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I was confused about the term "ceremonial county". Is a "ceremonial county" different from a "county", "administrative county", "geographic county", "bog standard county", or whatever the other term is?
If "Yes", what is the other term? And where can I find a map showing those other kind of counties?
If "No", why are they called "ceremonial counties", rather then just "counties"?
So I read the article, hoping to find answers to these questions. I am now even more confused. Maproom ( talk) 12:02, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
The info box at the top of the article says
So, which ceremonial county has a population of only 8,000? And which has an area of only three square kilometres? Maproom ( talk) 14:32, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Ceremonial counties of England. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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There is a discussion here [12], if anybody is interested. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 07:09, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Do we know for certain that the change took place along with the introduction of county councils? I left that obscure deliberately, because my source doesn't state either way. Morwen 16:25, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Isn't a ceremonial county of England the same as a Traditional County? Is this a double entry? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_counties_of_the_British_Isles
-Simon Brunger
Where does the idea that Ceremonial county is aka Geographic[al] county come from? What sort of county is non-geographical?
As above, 'ceremonial county' is well-defined and uses current local authority borders. 'Traditional county' refers to the counties that existed before the 1889 reforms. The confusion comes from unitary and upper tier local authorities that call themselves and/or the areas they cover 'counties'.
-Colin Newman
I sent an email to the Lord Lieutenant of Cambridgeshire's office and got this reply
Morwen - Talk 18:24, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I dispute the inclusion of Cornwall as a ceremonial county of England. Cornwall is not a ceremonial county of England, there is plenty of evidence to suggest it is in fact a Duchy please see the Cornish time line provided by Cornwall 'County' Council [ [1]] Also please visit the website of the Cornish Stannery Parliament [ [2]]. There are plenty of documents to indicate that all of Cornwall is a Duchy and that the Duchy of Cornwall constitutionally does not equate to the Dukes estates. Ceremonially the Queen takes the role of a visiting head of state when in Cornwall and the Duke takes the role of Head of State. This applies to anywhere in Cornwall not just on the Duchy estates. When a swan or sturgeon are caught in Cornwall they are ceremonially presented to the Duke of Cornwall not the Queen.
1855-58 The legal arguments of Sir George Harrison, Attorney General to the Duchy of Cornwall, defeat the Crown's aspirations of sovereignty of the Cornish foreshore. The Duchy that Cornwall argues the Duke has sovereignty of Cornwall and not the Crown.
1856 On behalf of the Duchy in its successful action against the Crown, which resulted in the Cornwall Submarine Mines Act of 1858, Sir George Harrison (Attorney General for Cornwall) makes this submission. That Cornwall, like Wales, was at the time of the Conquest, and was subsequently treated in many respects as distinct from England. That it was held by the Earls of Cornwall with the rights and prerogative of a County Palatine, as far as regarded the Seignory or territorial dominion. That the Dukes of Cornwall have from the creation of the Duchy enjoyed the rights and prerogatives of a County Palatine, as far as regarded seignory or territorial dominion, and that to a great extent by Earls. That when the Earldom was augmented into a Duchy, the circumstances attending to it's creation, as well as the language of the Duchy Charter, not only support and confirm natural presumption, that the new and higher title was to be accompanied with at least as great dignity, power, and prerogative as the Earls enjoyed, but also afforded evidence that the Duchy was to be invested with still more extensive rights and privileges. The Duchy Charters have always been construed and treated, not merley by the Courts of Judicature, but also by the Legislature of the Country, as having vested in the Dukes of Cornwall the whole territorial interest and dominion of the Crown in and over the entire County of Cornwall. Thenceforth mineral rights above the Low Water Mark belonged to the Duchy and below it to the Crown.
1863 The Duchy of Cornwall Management Act confirms that the Duke possesses seignory and territorial rights befitting a king.
1969-71 Kilbrandon Report into the British constitution recommends that, when referring to Cornwall - official sources should cite the Duchy not the County. This was suggested in recognition of its constitutional position.
1974 Reform of Cornish Stannary Parliament
1977 The Stannators right to veto Westminster legislation is confirmed by Parliament.
2001 (April) A sturgeon is caught off Cadgwith and is offered to the Duke of Cornwall. When landed in other parts of Britain the fish is customarily offered to the monarch.
In contrast to every English and Welsh county the High Sheriff of Cornwall is appointed by the Duke of Cornwall not by the Crown. For reference see page 72 of Cornwall a history by Philip Payton of Exeter university.
I have added a short note in the history section which points out the fact that in Cornwall can be found many people who disagree with its English county status, Cornwall is the only 'county' like this and is worth noting. Fulub le Breton 7/2/05
Added the following link
Bretagne 44 14:44, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
I have attempted to bring the High Sheriff article up to some kind of reasonable standard and am having trouble traking down the areas they cover. I assume that there is a High Sheriff for each ceremonial county but, according to the list here there is one High Sheriff for Herefordshire & Worcestershire but according to this article these are two counties, which makes me doubt my assumption. Is this page out of date? Have the ceremonial counties been changed? Do High Sheriffs and Lord-Lieutenants cover different areas? Any sugestions would be most helpful. Andreww 04:35, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
What on earth is going on here? I can think of no reason for this article to be moved from Ceremonial counties of England. I recommend a speedy revert. MRSC 19:31, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Who changed my title from Boroughs of England? "Borough" is the more official and used term. The 47 boroughs are the most basic equivalent to provincial government in England. SuperWikiman 09:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone/is is possible to make the map interactive, so you click on a county and it comes up witht he article? If so, this should be done. Benjaminstewart05 12:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
So, what sort of sourcing would be needed for this claim to be kept in? I can come up with many references from government and official sites using such a terminology. As an example [4] has Yvette Cooper noting that "The geographical county of Lancashire is made up of 12 district authorities and 2 unitary authorities". And conveniently now Encyclopedia Britannica is unacceptable as a source. This removal of valid, verifiable information because certain editors happen to disagree with is rather worrying.
Morwen - Talk 12:27, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Could the geographic centres of the counties be integrated into either this article or elsewhere in Wikipedia?
http://www.geograph.org.uk/explore/counties.php
David 16:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi, how do I change the "County Durham" to "Durham" on the map? I can't seem to be able to do it either on this page or the linked iamge. Thanks. Logoistic 09:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Is the term "Ceremonial county" official, or was it coined by someone unknown who doesn't have official sanction? These "Ceremonial counties" in England have a lord lieutenant, yet in Scotland they are called "Lieutenancy areas". Is there an official reference/citation to state that the term "Ceremonial county" is official? There is a Lieutenancies Act 1997, not a "Ceremonial counties Act 1997". Could some explain how this term gained acceptance and is it official? Cayden (talk) 22:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I have wondered about this. You can find 'ceremonial county' in Hansard debates [8] and from National statistics. [9] I'm confident we are reflecting real-world practice. MRSC • Talk 14:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The
Wirral seems to have got chopped off the map. Merseyside should have two parts, one on each side of the river Mersey. On the map, only the Liverpool side is shown; the Wirral seems to have floated off somewhere. Unless coastal erosion has stepped up recently, I think that the map should be altered to bring the Wirral back.
Epa101 (
talk)
11:31, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
If the user's window size is less than about 900 pixels wide, the map disappears - even though it itself is only 448 px wide. Can this be fixed? --
John Maynard Friedman (
talk)
00:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
The map is too small, so all the names get jumbled up and the map is unreadable.
82.139.86.4 (
talk)
17:36, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I am just looking at reducing some of the areas where citations have been requested on the
Buckinghamshire page, and one such area is where it states that Milton Keynes is part of Bucks for ceremonial purposes. I can find nothing on a google search that easily verifies that this is the case. Is anyone able to give me a good reference for MK being part of ceremonial Bucks? --
role
player 13:36, 8 December 2011 (UTC):Here you are
[10]
Lozleader (
talk)
15:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
I was confused about the term "ceremonial county". Is a "ceremonial county" different from a "county", "administrative county", "geographic county", "bog standard county", or whatever the other term is?
If "Yes", what is the other term? And where can I find a map showing those other kind of counties?
If "No", why are they called "ceremonial counties", rather then just "counties"?
So I read the article, hoping to find answers to these questions. I am now even more confused. Maproom ( talk) 12:02, 6 November 2012 (UTC)
The info box at the top of the article says
So, which ceremonial county has a population of only 8,000? And which has an area of only three square kilometres? Maproom ( talk) 14:32, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Ceremonial counties of England. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:25, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
There is a discussion here [12], if anybody is interested. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 07:09, 13 October 2018 (UTC)