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People seeing references to the 'CEPR' will undoubtedly often be confused between the two different organizations in London and Washington. Since the London-based organization was founded more than 15 years before the Washington-based organization, and was already widely known at that time (having published over 2000 discussion papers, among other things), many people are likely to assume there is some relation between the organizations. I'm unaware of any relation, but it would be helpful if someone could clarify whether there is one. If there is no relation, it would be helpful if someone knowledgeable could explain how it happened that a second organization was founded with the same acronym and almost exactly the same name. -- Rinconsoleao ( talk) 08:48, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Why are the terms 'liberal' and 'progressive' used to describe this organization? This is a leftist think tank; why doesn't the article clearly state this?
Tyrerj ( talk) 02:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Reference from David Horowitz Freedom Center that links Center for Economic and Policy Research with Chavez keeps getting removed. WP:NPOV requires that all views should be presented, and just those favorable ones. -- Vision Thing -- 17:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed the reference from the David Horowitz Freedom Center that links the CEPR with Chavez because the CEPR has also been critical of Chavez. The assertion that it is a supporter and apologist for the Chavez administration is unfounded. Moreover, this insertion violates Wikipedia's neutrality policy and constitutes POV. I'm sure Mr. Horowitz has many points of view on many progressive think tanks. But they have no place in a purely descriptive article on the CEPR. Flavio americo ( talk) 20:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, let's see, as Crmjones pointed out, if this will survive mediation. (I will not attempt to correct the inclusion anymore--since it seems you are part of the inner circle there). Be that as it may, all I am saying is that Mr. Horowitz has very strong opinions about avowedly progressive think tanks; in fact, he actively militates against them. I don't think that is relevant to a purely descriptive entry. It violates Wikipedia's neutrality and prohibition against POV. Flavio americo ( talk) 22:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Vision Thing: I wasn't the one who removed it last, but may I suggest something: if you are hell bent on including that ridiculously irrelevant citation from a known hydrophobic source, why don't you put it under a heading like "Criticism" and document criticism from both sides of the aisle, and not just the right-wing, distempered site? By the way, do you work for Horowitz's Freedom Center, for if so, this would constitute a conflict of interest. Flavio americo ( talk) 08:30, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Vision Thing: I have nothing to do with Irkawa (i.e., I am not a sock puppet: I have only one account granted to me by "Can't Sleep Clown Will Eat Me" because of difficulties in creating an account from my I.P. address [4.159.59.193], which is apparently flagged by Wikipedia. So I had to ask permission to create an account from this moderator who then emailed me a password. So I am not at liberty to create accounts for myself in the English Wikipedia). Flavio americo ( talk) 17:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that recent edits linking CEPR to Chavez have been more neutral than the obvious POV issues discussed above. Mentioning that CEPR representatives have sometimes defended the Chavez regime is perfectly appropriate, unless the edit is done in a way that implies it is CEPR's main activity (which is clearly not the case, as far as I can tell). To avoid implying that the Chavez regime is the main focus or a principal focus of CEPR, it would be more appropriate to take this material out of the introduction. It could be in a section called "Advocacy" that could document a variety of CEPR positions. Or if the point is that some people have criticized CEPR for defending Chavez, it could be in a section called "Criticism". -- Rinconsoleao ( talk) 17:06, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
CEPR is not an advocacy organization. With regards to Hugo Chávez and Venezuela, or any other president, CEPR does not "defend" presidents or governments. CEPR has published economic analyses of various Latin Amerian countries, including Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela, Bolivia, Peru, Mexico and others. These analyses cannot be considered a "defense" of any president or government; CEPR does not take political positions in this way.
The "advocacy" section was added by a right-wing blogger who has a political grudge against CEPR and has stalked the organization and its staff for years. It is not an attempt to provide objective information about the organization, but rather an attempt to misrepresent the organization in order to discredit it. Scalabrineformvp ( talk) 20:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
I think that the recent edits made to the advocacy section portray a much more accurate picture of both CEPR's work and also of Mark Weisbrot's writing. I can also enter some references if that would make everyone more agreeable. Scalabrineformvp ( talk) 23:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
The article is relying too much on self-published material. According to WP:SELFPUB, it is fine to use CEPR material to describe their own activities but the article would be much better if mostly based on material from independent reliable secondary sources. JRSP ( talk) 15:13, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Scalabrineformvp. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
According to a 2004 National Review article, the Venezuela Information Office (VIO)—a lobbying agency whose goal is to improve the perception of Venezuela in the US [1]—"coordinates a media response team" that includes "representatives from the Center for Economic Policy and Research". [2] CEPR representatives signed a letter to the editor of the Center for Public Integrity, saying that their statements about the VIO were "highly misleading". [3]
This constitutes an insinuation that CEPR (and is part of a campaign of similar insinuations against related living persons - cf Talk:Mark Weisbrot) has connections with the Venezuela government via the Venezuela Information Office. This is based on a poor source of debatable relevance ( National Review, making merely the vague and unsourced claim that VIO "coordinates a media response team" that includes "representatives from the Center for Economic Policy and Research") and a Center for Public Integrity report which mentions neither CEPR nor Weisbrot. But the Center for Public Integrity did feel the need to publish a response from a number of people, including Weisbrot, in response to the various allegations of people being associated with VIO. [1] Unbelievably, Sandy summarises this as the letter "saying that their [Center for Public Integrity's] statements about the VIO were "highly misleading"." The letter is not about the VIO, it is about the people smeared by supposed connections to VIO - and Sandy seeks to use this to smear Weisbrot and CEPR, neither of whom are mentioned in the original piece! This contentious, misrepresented, badly sourced and WP:SYNTHy material has no place in this article. Rd232 talk 14:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
"According to the David Horowitz Freedom Center, CEPR is a supporter and apologist for Hugo Chavez. [4] [4] - I don't think so. Rd232 talk 17:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
References
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A couple of suggestions for external links: Dean Baker bio and publications: http://www.cepr.net/index.php/dean-baker/ Mark Weisbrot bio and publications: http://www.cepr.net/index.php/mark-weisbrot/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kriswarner ( talk • contribs) 18:47, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
CEPR also has a YouTube Channel where videos from various events are accessible: http://www.youtube.com/cepr -- Kriswarner ( talk) 19:25, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
"CEPR publishes reports and opinions on a number of issues. Its geographical focus outside the United States is primarily on Latin America, and in particular on Argentina, Bolivia and Venezuela.[13]"
CEPR has also done quite a bit of work on Haiti (see this page devoted to it: http://www.cepr.net/index.php?option=com_issues&task=view_issue&issue=33&Itemid=22), and now alsohas a blog about the reconstruction effort after the earthquake: http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/relief-and-reconstruction-watch/. Kriswarner ( talk) 18:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I believe we should follow apparent majority opinion and refer to CEPR as a liberal, rather than progressive, think tank. Frequency analysis: 44 for liberal, 7 for progressive. Any objections to changing it? -- JN 466 16:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC) Extended search, including web, news, books, scholar, images, with frequencies returned in each category:
-- JN 466 16:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Another search configuration:
-- JN 466 16:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
"Social democratic" anybody?
David Lloyd-Jones ( talk) 13:28, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
My linking progressive to progressivism has been reverted by User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz, arguing: ″this is a synomym for Social democratic/liberal, following the progressive party of Henry Wallace, with support of CPUSA, not Teddy Roosevelt's progressivism.″
Principle: Please be constructive and improve a good-faith edit you disagree with rather than simply reverting it.
Substance: This exchange demonstrates that we need a wikilink here for clarity on what the article means by "progressive". I'm not familiar with Wallace's Progressive Party but if it leans towards communism, as Kiefer implies with his CPUSA reference, it most certainly does not represent the progressivism that the CEPR is aligned with. In contrast, the progressivism article, in my point of view, describes "social democratic / liberal" very well. So for the time being, I maintain the article should link to progressivism. -- EnOreg ( talk) 15:02, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
As there has been no further counterargument in a week I would like to reinstate the link, referencing the source above for the classification. -- EnOreg ( talk) 12:22, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
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I recommend taking the Venezuela section out entirely, as an undue section designed to transmit a biased POV against CEPR. I have followed the organization's work for over a decade, and their Venezuela work is a tiny fraction of their overall product, as is evident from their website. Using the rightwing Front Page magazine as a primary source is evidence of bias, and the article itself suggests that the Council on Foreign Relations has acted as an apologist for Iran - this is a scurrilous suggestion, entirely outside the left and right spectrum of respectable political discourse, from the far right fringe. There is also hearsay/gossip (contrary to Wikipedia principles) about a CEPR economist asking for funding for a Venezuelan organization, followed by an irrelevant and again undue focus on Venezuela events CEPR staff may have attended, ignoring the hundreds of other events CEPR staff may have attended. This Wiki entry should be brought in line with entries for similar organizations, including the Peterson Institute ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterson_Institute_for_International_Economics), CSIS ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Strategic_and_International_Studies), and the Economic Policy Institute ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Policy_Institute). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joefranks72 ( talk • contribs) 17:54, October 3, 2014
Now, as of this edit (September 20, https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Center_for_Economic_and_Policy_Research&diff=682050120&oldid=681980827) by ZiaLater, I'm a "self-proclaimed Chavista"! Tell me, Zialater, where is your reference for this? This is an outright lie and unfortunately consistent with your edits on this page and others related to CEPR and Venezuela. People should continue to keep an eye on all edits this user makes, and probably revert recent ones. Kriswarner ( talk) 23:47, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Recently, there have been a number of additions/revisions/deletions to this page related to positions that CEPR has taken on very particular subjects (the Affordable Care Act, the Minimum Wage, "taxes," Venezuela). As an economic think tank, this is basically its reason for existence. It seems that rather than trying to examine the CEPR website and then transfer possibly hundreds of its positions on various subjects here, a higher-level summary (based on secondary sources) would be much more useful. And if that is done, it should be neutral and weighted properly - half of its work is on the U.S., half of it international (and most of that in Latin America, including countries other than Venezuela).
Disclosure: I'm a former employee. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kriswarner ( talk • contribs) 23:39, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Since there has been no response to this, I removed the sections. I think a summary of some major stances might still be worthwhile however. Kriswarner ( talk) 21:52, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
@ ZiaLater:. I took a look at the section in the Bolivarian Propaganda article, and the only difference is that the article contains a some information from Discoverthenetworks, an American hard-right attack site that specializes in the same conspiracy-mongering that Glenn Beck's chalkboard is known for, as well as the connection between the VIO and CEPR. (+infoshop, an anarchist site). Discoverthenetworks is not a reliable source by wikipedia standards (nor are frontpagemag, globalresearch, voltairenet etc) - it should not be used to substantiate controversial claims or alter the POV-balance of an article. Non-specialist sources such as the ones I listed are usually deleted on sight, with few objections. In fact you've done the same for this article, commendably. As for the connections between the CEPR and VIO, we can mention them here very briefly. This will allow us to remove the link to Bolivarian Propaganda which is POV-SYNTH article to the core. Many media sources and advocacy groups have connections to governments, but there is a difference between pointing out these connections and calling their work "propaganda". The latter is almost never done here on wikipedia because it violates NPOV and creates a controversial political narrative. US newspapers rely on government sources all the time and attack "enemy" governments, US advocacy groups aggressively advocate for this or that government. There are advocacy groups in Russia and Ukraine that meet with American politicians, receiving money and talking-points from the West, yet their work is never labeled "propaganda" here - and rightly so. To label those groups propagandists would mean violating NPOV, and building an unsourced narrative that lets the much bigger Russian propaganda apparatus off the hook. I hope you agree that doing so would be absurd. Likewise there are no articles on Russian propaganda, Israeli propaganda, Iranian propaganda etc. even though all these regimes aggressively push their message around the world - often at the point of a gun. As far as CEPR is concerned, insinuating that it is a propaganda arm is far more undue and absurd: they don't receive money from Venezuela and most of their work - even on Latin America - has nothing to do with advocating Chavismo. When CEPR does cover Venezuela, they usually do so as economic specialists. They may be biased, but Chavismo is a polarizing topic. The point is that there is no equivalence between between the CEPR's work and the type of brazen "propaganda" we normally see from governments. An example of the latter would be Russian propaganda on Ukraine, which is clearly a very different beast.
So what I propose is that we include a note about the relationship between the VIO and CEPR and delete the link to Bolivarian propaganda, which is a highly problematic article in the first place. Thoughts? Guccisamsclub ( talk) 14:51, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
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Work published by CEPR, moved here from Mark Weisbrot article. It needs to be more carefully written to clarify these are the author's opinions, and then could be added to this article.
SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:32, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
References
I’ve been following this page for a while and I've never liked how sparse it is, so I was glad when I saw a big edit come through! I thought I'd take a look at what was written, and I've run into a few problems with the sourcing and content. I've outlined them below. I'd love to hear other editors' thoughts on this.
I've run into three problems with the sources: Formal NPOV issues, the accuracy of the claims themselves, and undue weighting issues. Because quite a few of these involve contentious claims, have previously been adjudicated on this talk page, and increased the page word count by ~33%, I think it’s safe to call this a major edit. After looking around to see what to do with a major edit, I found this:
Be cautious about making a major change to an article. Prevent edit warring by discussing such edits first on the article's talk page. One editor's idea of an improvement may be another editor's idea of a desecration. If you choose to be bold, try to justify your change in detail on the article talk page, so as to avoid an edit war. Before making a major change, consider first creating a new draft on a subpage of your own user page and then link to it on the article's talk page so as to facilitate a new discussion. - /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Editing_policy#Be_cautious_with_major_changes:_discuss
Therefore, in the spirit of Wikipedia, I’ve reverted this edit until we can talk it out! Well, no use waiting.. Let’s jump in!
First, let’s go through the added citations to examine accuracy and balance issues:
NPOV: Note 14: Discoverthenetworks.org: This seems to be a site run in part by David Horowitz, a very conservative American writer. From his page: 'Chip Berlet, writing for the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), identified Horowitz's Center for the Study of Popular Culture as one of 17 "right-wing foundations and think tanks support[ing] efforts to make bigoted and discredited ideas respectable."'
From the site's page: "When first launched the website was criticized for a jump page picturing entertainment celebrities such as Bruce Springsteen and Barbra Streisand adjacent to radical Muslim terrorists."
Let’s talk this one out: is this the type of stuff we want spreading on Wikipedia? Is it even within the guidelines to cite someone who’s basically been called a professional racist by the SPLC? I know we can find sources that present a wide range of views, without amplifying the clout/reach/influence of someone as reactionary as this. Full disclosure: I am American, so I might be a bit a biased on the matter. If there are people from elsewhere who have a good argument for promoting American racists, I promise I will give it a listen. To be clear, I’m being completely serious. I take my objectivity very seriously.
Aside from all that, the Horowitz issue has already been a huge issue for this page! You can refer to the ‘Chavez’ talk sections above to find a very similar discussion to the one we’re having now. As you can see a compromise was reached, and Horowitz was cited on the page, but the language of the text was made more neutral. It seems like we’d be relying a lot on one source if we added multiple citations from his organizations again.
Accuracy: Note 14: ibid: The added text to wiki: “ On the day the VIO registered to the Department of Justice, CEPR's co-director and advisor to Hugo Chávez,[19] Mark Weisbrot, signed a letter "to the progressive funding community" about donating to groups like the VIO. "
Here is the original text from the citation http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=7226:
'On the same day that VIO registered with the U.S. Justice Department, Mark Weisbrot co-signed a letter addressed "to the progressive funding community," urging potential donors "to take an interest in this issue [democracy in Venezuela], and provide funding to groups [like VIO] that are working on it, before it is too late." '
The bracketed text dramatically changes the meaning of the quotes. Without the brackets, the quote reads like a generic call for funding. Since the link to the letter is dead, it is impossible to verify how accurate the sentence reads with the brackets added. DiscovertheNetworks took quite a bit of agency in deciding which groups Weisbrot was referring to by adding the VIO bracket, which makes the source not the best fit for Wikipedia.
Questionable Source: Note 15 - Thor Halvorssen,
http://www.reporteconfidencial.info/noticia/3236153/diaspora-criolla-venezuela-pierde-los-mejores-anos-de-sus-hijos/ :
From his page: Halvorssen is a critic of Hugo Chávez,[46] and has written on Venezuela’s anti-Semitism and the assault on democracy and individual rights in Latin America.[47]
You’ll have to introduce me to some of Halvorssen’s work if I’ve gotten the wrong idea, but at first glance, it looks like he has some strong opinions about Venezuela. It seems a little questionable to include him here.
From Wikipedia: “Questionable sources...include websites and publications expressing views...that are promotional in nature, or that rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions.[9] Questionable sources are generally unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties, which includes claims against institutions [emphases added], persons living or dead, as well as more ill-defined entities.” ( /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Biased_or_opinionated_sources)
It seems like the folks at HQ have spoken on this one folks. I don’t think we need to debate whether calling a person with no connection to a pygmy tribe a “pygmy” let alone a “propagandist” is contentious!
NPOV : 16 - Proveo.org: from its google blurb: "UK based NGO that provides information on the social, educational, financial and political crisis of Venezuela caused by the neo fascist revolution of Hugo Chavez."
I can't imagine there is a universal consensus that Chavez led a 'neo fascist revolution.' This seems like a site with a VERY strong point of view (“Neo Fascist”? You know it’s heated when those accusations start coming out). Again, we could either balance a strong opinion like this with an opinion just as strong from a different point of view (I cover why this won’t really work below), or we can look for more measured sources.
Accuracy: Note 20,
http://www.proveo.org/viofara0205c.pdf :
“A year later following the 2004 Venezuela recall referendum, the VIO contacted the CEPR on 22 September 2004, giving it a report from the Venezuelan government to share about the referendum, with the CEPR publishing a similar report the following day that was then shared by the VIO to its followers. "
This was quite the claim! Please point me in the right direction if I’m lost, but after reading the document, the only mention I found to anything related to the Center was a row on page 10 stating that Mark Weisbrot was contacted by email to be a speaker at an event. I also checked the CEPR website for reports issued in 2004, and didn’t find anything that seemed liked it would fit the profile of the report mentioned here ( http://cepr.net/publications/reports/). I would also note that making the claim that a non-partisan research organization is publishing ‘similar reports’ to those fed to it by a government is probably not the best thing for a Wikipedia page, unless that claim is backed by incredibly well-sourced evidence. Say, for instance, that someone wrote on the Brookings Institute (another highly respected think tank) page that the Institute was receiving anti-American reports from Russia and publishing similar results the next day. That would really be quite the accusation!
Relevance: 21, 22: "The VIO contacted the CEPR on multiple separate occasions for various reasons such as responding to negative media about Venezuela, asking for Weisbrot to speak at a congressional briefing, meeting with Venezuelan ministers and participating in panel discussions."
These are some fantastic primary sources, but I'm not sure the take away is relevant to the page or its readers. The VIO seems to have contacted CEPR 14 years ago, but nothing seems to have come of the interaction in the sources provided. The Center is likely contacted by many organizations around the world every day. Reporting on all those contacts would be a herculean task which would little benefit the readers of this page.
Finally a word on weight. First from our trusty overlords, the people who write the policy pages:
An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. - /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight
They’ve said it better than I ever could =D
What we’re working with here is a sparse page (900 words for a 20 year old organization), and fully 50% of those words are related to Venezuela. This is for an NGO that has a full domestic staff and does research on what looks to be dozens of countries around the world. I’m guessing we can all agree there’s a biiiiiit of a weight issue there. Even removing this edit leaves 175/600 words on Venezuela, which is still a sizeable overweight. I think there’s plenty to do with this page. But we need to keep things balanced as we work. Let’s do it. DenizenGene ( talk) 01:56, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Halvorssen having views on Venezuela are not what determines reliability, any more than Weisbrot's views on Venezuela do. And that you cherrypicked from his work reveals that you probably are familiar with it and him. Do you have reliable sources discussing CEPR that provide an a view that you would like to include and that you feel is not represented? You cannot talk WEIGHT and BALANCE unless you have something to indicate what is lacking. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 11:46, 13 April 2018 (UTC)From his page: Halvorssen is a critic of Hugo Chávez,[46] and has written on Venezuela’s anti-Semitism and the assault on democracy and individual rights in Latin America.[47]You’ll have to introduce me to some of Halvorssen’s work if I’ve gotten the wrong idea, but at first glance, it looks like he has some strong opinions about Venezuela. It seems a little questionable to include him here.
There has been a history of WP:MEAT on this article (and Weisbrot), so I suggest all participants read the policy. WP:NOT might also be helpful. There is too much puffery based on primary sources, and too little use of secondary sources. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:59, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, I see now that the citation refers to the organization as "progressive" ( https://fair.org/extra/the-incredible-shrinking-think-tank/). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaiagenesis ( talk • contribs) 23:29, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
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People seeing references to the 'CEPR' will undoubtedly often be confused between the two different organizations in London and Washington. Since the London-based organization was founded more than 15 years before the Washington-based organization, and was already widely known at that time (having published over 2000 discussion papers, among other things), many people are likely to assume there is some relation between the organizations. I'm unaware of any relation, but it would be helpful if someone could clarify whether there is one. If there is no relation, it would be helpful if someone knowledgeable could explain how it happened that a second organization was founded with the same acronym and almost exactly the same name. -- Rinconsoleao ( talk) 08:48, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Why are the terms 'liberal' and 'progressive' used to describe this organization? This is a leftist think tank; why doesn't the article clearly state this?
Tyrerj ( talk) 02:46, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Reference from David Horowitz Freedom Center that links Center for Economic and Policy Research with Chavez keeps getting removed. WP:NPOV requires that all views should be presented, and just those favorable ones. -- Vision Thing -- 17:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed the reference from the David Horowitz Freedom Center that links the CEPR with Chavez because the CEPR has also been critical of Chavez. The assertion that it is a supporter and apologist for the Chavez administration is unfounded. Moreover, this insertion violates Wikipedia's neutrality policy and constitutes POV. I'm sure Mr. Horowitz has many points of view on many progressive think tanks. But they have no place in a purely descriptive article on the CEPR. Flavio americo ( talk) 20:30, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, let's see, as Crmjones pointed out, if this will survive mediation. (I will not attempt to correct the inclusion anymore--since it seems you are part of the inner circle there). Be that as it may, all I am saying is that Mr. Horowitz has very strong opinions about avowedly progressive think tanks; in fact, he actively militates against them. I don't think that is relevant to a purely descriptive entry. It violates Wikipedia's neutrality and prohibition against POV. Flavio americo ( talk) 22:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Vision Thing: I wasn't the one who removed it last, but may I suggest something: if you are hell bent on including that ridiculously irrelevant citation from a known hydrophobic source, why don't you put it under a heading like "Criticism" and document criticism from both sides of the aisle, and not just the right-wing, distempered site? By the way, do you work for Horowitz's Freedom Center, for if so, this would constitute a conflict of interest. Flavio americo ( talk) 08:30, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Vision Thing: I have nothing to do with Irkawa (i.e., I am not a sock puppet: I have only one account granted to me by "Can't Sleep Clown Will Eat Me" because of difficulties in creating an account from my I.P. address [4.159.59.193], which is apparently flagged by Wikipedia. So I had to ask permission to create an account from this moderator who then emailed me a password. So I am not at liberty to create accounts for myself in the English Wikipedia). Flavio americo ( talk) 17:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that recent edits linking CEPR to Chavez have been more neutral than the obvious POV issues discussed above. Mentioning that CEPR representatives have sometimes defended the Chavez regime is perfectly appropriate, unless the edit is done in a way that implies it is CEPR's main activity (which is clearly not the case, as far as I can tell). To avoid implying that the Chavez regime is the main focus or a principal focus of CEPR, it would be more appropriate to take this material out of the introduction. It could be in a section called "Advocacy" that could document a variety of CEPR positions. Or if the point is that some people have criticized CEPR for defending Chavez, it could be in a section called "Criticism". -- Rinconsoleao ( talk) 17:06, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
CEPR is not an advocacy organization. With regards to Hugo Chávez and Venezuela, or any other president, CEPR does not "defend" presidents or governments. CEPR has published economic analyses of various Latin Amerian countries, including Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela, Bolivia, Peru, Mexico and others. These analyses cannot be considered a "defense" of any president or government; CEPR does not take political positions in this way.
The "advocacy" section was added by a right-wing blogger who has a political grudge against CEPR and has stalked the organization and its staff for years. It is not an attempt to provide objective information about the organization, but rather an attempt to misrepresent the organization in order to discredit it. Scalabrineformvp ( talk) 20:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
I think that the recent edits made to the advocacy section portray a much more accurate picture of both CEPR's work and also of Mark Weisbrot's writing. I can also enter some references if that would make everyone more agreeable. Scalabrineformvp ( talk) 23:02, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
The article is relying too much on self-published material. According to WP:SELFPUB, it is fine to use CEPR material to describe their own activities but the article would be much better if mostly based on material from independent reliable secondary sources. JRSP ( talk) 15:13, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Scalabrineformvp. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 16:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
According to a 2004 National Review article, the Venezuela Information Office (VIO)—a lobbying agency whose goal is to improve the perception of Venezuela in the US [1]—"coordinates a media response team" that includes "representatives from the Center for Economic Policy and Research". [2] CEPR representatives signed a letter to the editor of the Center for Public Integrity, saying that their statements about the VIO were "highly misleading". [3]
This constitutes an insinuation that CEPR (and is part of a campaign of similar insinuations against related living persons - cf Talk:Mark Weisbrot) has connections with the Venezuela government via the Venezuela Information Office. This is based on a poor source of debatable relevance ( National Review, making merely the vague and unsourced claim that VIO "coordinates a media response team" that includes "representatives from the Center for Economic Policy and Research") and a Center for Public Integrity report which mentions neither CEPR nor Weisbrot. But the Center for Public Integrity did feel the need to publish a response from a number of people, including Weisbrot, in response to the various allegations of people being associated with VIO. [1] Unbelievably, Sandy summarises this as the letter "saying that their [Center for Public Integrity's] statements about the VIO were "highly misleading"." The letter is not about the VIO, it is about the people smeared by supposed connections to VIO - and Sandy seeks to use this to smear Weisbrot and CEPR, neither of whom are mentioned in the original piece! This contentious, misrepresented, badly sourced and WP:SYNTHy material has no place in this article. Rd232 talk 14:36, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
"According to the David Horowitz Freedom Center, CEPR is a supporter and apologist for Hugo Chavez. [4] [4] - I don't think so. Rd232 talk 17:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
References
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A couple of suggestions for external links: Dean Baker bio and publications: http://www.cepr.net/index.php/dean-baker/ Mark Weisbrot bio and publications: http://www.cepr.net/index.php/mark-weisbrot/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kriswarner ( talk • contribs) 18:47, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
CEPR also has a YouTube Channel where videos from various events are accessible: http://www.youtube.com/cepr -- Kriswarner ( talk) 19:25, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
"CEPR publishes reports and opinions on a number of issues. Its geographical focus outside the United States is primarily on Latin America, and in particular on Argentina, Bolivia and Venezuela.[13]"
CEPR has also done quite a bit of work on Haiti (see this page devoted to it: http://www.cepr.net/index.php?option=com_issues&task=view_issue&issue=33&Itemid=22), and now alsohas a blog about the reconstruction effort after the earthquake: http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/relief-and-reconstruction-watch/. Kriswarner ( talk) 18:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I believe we should follow apparent majority opinion and refer to CEPR as a liberal, rather than progressive, think tank. Frequency analysis: 44 for liberal, 7 for progressive. Any objections to changing it? -- JN 466 16:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC) Extended search, including web, news, books, scholar, images, with frequencies returned in each category:
-- JN 466 16:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
Another search configuration:
-- JN 466 16:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
"Social democratic" anybody?
David Lloyd-Jones ( talk) 13:28, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
My linking progressive to progressivism has been reverted by User:Kiefer.Wolfowitz, arguing: ″this is a synomym for Social democratic/liberal, following the progressive party of Henry Wallace, with support of CPUSA, not Teddy Roosevelt's progressivism.″
Principle: Please be constructive and improve a good-faith edit you disagree with rather than simply reverting it.
Substance: This exchange demonstrates that we need a wikilink here for clarity on what the article means by "progressive". I'm not familiar with Wallace's Progressive Party but if it leans towards communism, as Kiefer implies with his CPUSA reference, it most certainly does not represent the progressivism that the CEPR is aligned with. In contrast, the progressivism article, in my point of view, describes "social democratic / liberal" very well. So for the time being, I maintain the article should link to progressivism. -- EnOreg ( talk) 15:02, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
As there has been no further counterargument in a week I would like to reinstate the link, referencing the source above for the classification. -- EnOreg ( talk) 12:22, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
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I recommend taking the Venezuela section out entirely, as an undue section designed to transmit a biased POV against CEPR. I have followed the organization's work for over a decade, and their Venezuela work is a tiny fraction of their overall product, as is evident from their website. Using the rightwing Front Page magazine as a primary source is evidence of bias, and the article itself suggests that the Council on Foreign Relations has acted as an apologist for Iran - this is a scurrilous suggestion, entirely outside the left and right spectrum of respectable political discourse, from the far right fringe. There is also hearsay/gossip (contrary to Wikipedia principles) about a CEPR economist asking for funding for a Venezuelan organization, followed by an irrelevant and again undue focus on Venezuela events CEPR staff may have attended, ignoring the hundreds of other events CEPR staff may have attended. This Wiki entry should be brought in line with entries for similar organizations, including the Peterson Institute ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterson_Institute_for_International_Economics), CSIS ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Strategic_and_International_Studies), and the Economic Policy Institute ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Policy_Institute). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joefranks72 ( talk • contribs) 17:54, October 3, 2014
Now, as of this edit (September 20, https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Center_for_Economic_and_Policy_Research&diff=682050120&oldid=681980827) by ZiaLater, I'm a "self-proclaimed Chavista"! Tell me, Zialater, where is your reference for this? This is an outright lie and unfortunately consistent with your edits on this page and others related to CEPR and Venezuela. People should continue to keep an eye on all edits this user makes, and probably revert recent ones. Kriswarner ( talk) 23:47, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Recently, there have been a number of additions/revisions/deletions to this page related to positions that CEPR has taken on very particular subjects (the Affordable Care Act, the Minimum Wage, "taxes," Venezuela). As an economic think tank, this is basically its reason for existence. It seems that rather than trying to examine the CEPR website and then transfer possibly hundreds of its positions on various subjects here, a higher-level summary (based on secondary sources) would be much more useful. And if that is done, it should be neutral and weighted properly - half of its work is on the U.S., half of it international (and most of that in Latin America, including countries other than Venezuela).
Disclosure: I'm a former employee. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kriswarner ( talk • contribs) 23:39, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Since there has been no response to this, I removed the sections. I think a summary of some major stances might still be worthwhile however. Kriswarner ( talk) 21:52, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
@ ZiaLater:. I took a look at the section in the Bolivarian Propaganda article, and the only difference is that the article contains a some information from Discoverthenetworks, an American hard-right attack site that specializes in the same conspiracy-mongering that Glenn Beck's chalkboard is known for, as well as the connection between the VIO and CEPR. (+infoshop, an anarchist site). Discoverthenetworks is not a reliable source by wikipedia standards (nor are frontpagemag, globalresearch, voltairenet etc) - it should not be used to substantiate controversial claims or alter the POV-balance of an article. Non-specialist sources such as the ones I listed are usually deleted on sight, with few objections. In fact you've done the same for this article, commendably. As for the connections between the CEPR and VIO, we can mention them here very briefly. This will allow us to remove the link to Bolivarian Propaganda which is POV-SYNTH article to the core. Many media sources and advocacy groups have connections to governments, but there is a difference between pointing out these connections and calling their work "propaganda". The latter is almost never done here on wikipedia because it violates NPOV and creates a controversial political narrative. US newspapers rely on government sources all the time and attack "enemy" governments, US advocacy groups aggressively advocate for this or that government. There are advocacy groups in Russia and Ukraine that meet with American politicians, receiving money and talking-points from the West, yet their work is never labeled "propaganda" here - and rightly so. To label those groups propagandists would mean violating NPOV, and building an unsourced narrative that lets the much bigger Russian propaganda apparatus off the hook. I hope you agree that doing so would be absurd. Likewise there are no articles on Russian propaganda, Israeli propaganda, Iranian propaganda etc. even though all these regimes aggressively push their message around the world - often at the point of a gun. As far as CEPR is concerned, insinuating that it is a propaganda arm is far more undue and absurd: they don't receive money from Venezuela and most of their work - even on Latin America - has nothing to do with advocating Chavismo. When CEPR does cover Venezuela, they usually do so as economic specialists. They may be biased, but Chavismo is a polarizing topic. The point is that there is no equivalence between between the CEPR's work and the type of brazen "propaganda" we normally see from governments. An example of the latter would be Russian propaganda on Ukraine, which is clearly a very different beast.
So what I propose is that we include a note about the relationship between the VIO and CEPR and delete the link to Bolivarian propaganda, which is a highly problematic article in the first place. Thoughts? Guccisamsclub ( talk) 14:51, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
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Work published by CEPR, moved here from Mark Weisbrot article. It needs to be more carefully written to clarify these are the author's opinions, and then could be added to this article.
SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 21:32, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
References
I’ve been following this page for a while and I've never liked how sparse it is, so I was glad when I saw a big edit come through! I thought I'd take a look at what was written, and I've run into a few problems with the sourcing and content. I've outlined them below. I'd love to hear other editors' thoughts on this.
I've run into three problems with the sources: Formal NPOV issues, the accuracy of the claims themselves, and undue weighting issues. Because quite a few of these involve contentious claims, have previously been adjudicated on this talk page, and increased the page word count by ~33%, I think it’s safe to call this a major edit. After looking around to see what to do with a major edit, I found this:
Be cautious about making a major change to an article. Prevent edit warring by discussing such edits first on the article's talk page. One editor's idea of an improvement may be another editor's idea of a desecration. If you choose to be bold, try to justify your change in detail on the article talk page, so as to avoid an edit war. Before making a major change, consider first creating a new draft on a subpage of your own user page and then link to it on the article's talk page so as to facilitate a new discussion. - /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Editing_policy#Be_cautious_with_major_changes:_discuss
Therefore, in the spirit of Wikipedia, I’ve reverted this edit until we can talk it out! Well, no use waiting.. Let’s jump in!
First, let’s go through the added citations to examine accuracy and balance issues:
NPOV: Note 14: Discoverthenetworks.org: This seems to be a site run in part by David Horowitz, a very conservative American writer. From his page: 'Chip Berlet, writing for the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), identified Horowitz's Center for the Study of Popular Culture as one of 17 "right-wing foundations and think tanks support[ing] efforts to make bigoted and discredited ideas respectable."'
From the site's page: "When first launched the website was criticized for a jump page picturing entertainment celebrities such as Bruce Springsteen and Barbra Streisand adjacent to radical Muslim terrorists."
Let’s talk this one out: is this the type of stuff we want spreading on Wikipedia? Is it even within the guidelines to cite someone who’s basically been called a professional racist by the SPLC? I know we can find sources that present a wide range of views, without amplifying the clout/reach/influence of someone as reactionary as this. Full disclosure: I am American, so I might be a bit a biased on the matter. If there are people from elsewhere who have a good argument for promoting American racists, I promise I will give it a listen. To be clear, I’m being completely serious. I take my objectivity very seriously.
Aside from all that, the Horowitz issue has already been a huge issue for this page! You can refer to the ‘Chavez’ talk sections above to find a very similar discussion to the one we’re having now. As you can see a compromise was reached, and Horowitz was cited on the page, but the language of the text was made more neutral. It seems like we’d be relying a lot on one source if we added multiple citations from his organizations again.
Accuracy: Note 14: ibid: The added text to wiki: “ On the day the VIO registered to the Department of Justice, CEPR's co-director and advisor to Hugo Chávez,[19] Mark Weisbrot, signed a letter "to the progressive funding community" about donating to groups like the VIO. "
Here is the original text from the citation http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=7226:
'On the same day that VIO registered with the U.S. Justice Department, Mark Weisbrot co-signed a letter addressed "to the progressive funding community," urging potential donors "to take an interest in this issue [democracy in Venezuela], and provide funding to groups [like VIO] that are working on it, before it is too late." '
The bracketed text dramatically changes the meaning of the quotes. Without the brackets, the quote reads like a generic call for funding. Since the link to the letter is dead, it is impossible to verify how accurate the sentence reads with the brackets added. DiscovertheNetworks took quite a bit of agency in deciding which groups Weisbrot was referring to by adding the VIO bracket, which makes the source not the best fit for Wikipedia.
Questionable Source: Note 15 - Thor Halvorssen,
http://www.reporteconfidencial.info/noticia/3236153/diaspora-criolla-venezuela-pierde-los-mejores-anos-de-sus-hijos/ :
From his page: Halvorssen is a critic of Hugo Chávez,[46] and has written on Venezuela’s anti-Semitism and the assault on democracy and individual rights in Latin America.[47]
You’ll have to introduce me to some of Halvorssen’s work if I’ve gotten the wrong idea, but at first glance, it looks like he has some strong opinions about Venezuela. It seems a little questionable to include him here.
From Wikipedia: “Questionable sources...include websites and publications expressing views...that are promotional in nature, or that rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions.[9] Questionable sources are generally unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties, which includes claims against institutions [emphases added], persons living or dead, as well as more ill-defined entities.” ( /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#Biased_or_opinionated_sources)
It seems like the folks at HQ have spoken on this one folks. I don’t think we need to debate whether calling a person with no connection to a pygmy tribe a “pygmy” let alone a “propagandist” is contentious!
NPOV : 16 - Proveo.org: from its google blurb: "UK based NGO that provides information on the social, educational, financial and political crisis of Venezuela caused by the neo fascist revolution of Hugo Chavez."
I can't imagine there is a universal consensus that Chavez led a 'neo fascist revolution.' This seems like a site with a VERY strong point of view (“Neo Fascist”? You know it’s heated when those accusations start coming out). Again, we could either balance a strong opinion like this with an opinion just as strong from a different point of view (I cover why this won’t really work below), or we can look for more measured sources.
Accuracy: Note 20,
http://www.proveo.org/viofara0205c.pdf :
“A year later following the 2004 Venezuela recall referendum, the VIO contacted the CEPR on 22 September 2004, giving it a report from the Venezuelan government to share about the referendum, with the CEPR publishing a similar report the following day that was then shared by the VIO to its followers. "
This was quite the claim! Please point me in the right direction if I’m lost, but after reading the document, the only mention I found to anything related to the Center was a row on page 10 stating that Mark Weisbrot was contacted by email to be a speaker at an event. I also checked the CEPR website for reports issued in 2004, and didn’t find anything that seemed liked it would fit the profile of the report mentioned here ( http://cepr.net/publications/reports/). I would also note that making the claim that a non-partisan research organization is publishing ‘similar reports’ to those fed to it by a government is probably not the best thing for a Wikipedia page, unless that claim is backed by incredibly well-sourced evidence. Say, for instance, that someone wrote on the Brookings Institute (another highly respected think tank) page that the Institute was receiving anti-American reports from Russia and publishing similar results the next day. That would really be quite the accusation!
Relevance: 21, 22: "The VIO contacted the CEPR on multiple separate occasions for various reasons such as responding to negative media about Venezuela, asking for Weisbrot to speak at a congressional briefing, meeting with Venezuelan ministers and participating in panel discussions."
These are some fantastic primary sources, but I'm not sure the take away is relevant to the page or its readers. The VIO seems to have contacted CEPR 14 years ago, but nothing seems to have come of the interaction in the sources provided. The Center is likely contacted by many organizations around the world every day. Reporting on all those contacts would be a herculean task which would little benefit the readers of this page.
Finally a word on weight. First from our trusty overlords, the people who write the policy pages:
An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. - /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight
They’ve said it better than I ever could =D
What we’re working with here is a sparse page (900 words for a 20 year old organization), and fully 50% of those words are related to Venezuela. This is for an NGO that has a full domestic staff and does research on what looks to be dozens of countries around the world. I’m guessing we can all agree there’s a biiiiiit of a weight issue there. Even removing this edit leaves 175/600 words on Venezuela, which is still a sizeable overweight. I think there’s plenty to do with this page. But we need to keep things balanced as we work. Let’s do it. DenizenGene ( talk) 01:56, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Halvorssen having views on Venezuela are not what determines reliability, any more than Weisbrot's views on Venezuela do. And that you cherrypicked from his work reveals that you probably are familiar with it and him. Do you have reliable sources discussing CEPR that provide an a view that you would like to include and that you feel is not represented? You cannot talk WEIGHT and BALANCE unless you have something to indicate what is lacking. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 11:46, 13 April 2018 (UTC)From his page: Halvorssen is a critic of Hugo Chávez,[46] and has written on Venezuela’s anti-Semitism and the assault on democracy and individual rights in Latin America.[47]You’ll have to introduce me to some of Halvorssen’s work if I’ve gotten the wrong idea, but at first glance, it looks like he has some strong opinions about Venezuela. It seems a little questionable to include him here.
There has been a history of WP:MEAT on this article (and Weisbrot), so I suggest all participants read the policy. WP:NOT might also be helpful. There is too much puffery based on primary sources, and too little use of secondary sources. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 01:59, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, I see now that the citation refers to the organization as "progressive" ( https://fair.org/extra/the-incredible-shrinking-think-tank/). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaiagenesis ( talk • contribs) 23:29, 11 January 2020 (UTC)