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Greetings,
I created this article out of a perceived need. This is specifically to explain the problems surrounding the census of Quirinius as described by Luke, Josephus, and also the relation to the Gospel of Matthew. Both the Chronology of Jesus and several other pages on Jesus, as well as the Gospels, took up this matter piecemeal and briefly. This, I think, it a helpful outlet for them. Lostcaesar 01:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Did the census include Syria? I personally don't know, so I'm asking. Josephus would be the source.
Nevermind, answered my own question:
HOW CYRENIUS WAS SENT BY CAESAR TO MAKE A TAXATION OF SYRIA AND JUDEA; AND HOW COPONIUS WAS SENT TO BE PROCURATOR OF JUDEA; CONCERNING JUDAS OF GALILEE AND CONCERNING THE SECTS THAT WERE AMONG THE JEWS.
I translated "proconsul asiam provinciam op… divi augusti iterum syriam" myself, but I could use someone who is expert in reading inscriptions to check this out; inscription, with their missing letters and shorthand script at notoriously hard to read. Particularly, I wonder if my rendering of asiam as the adjective modifying syriam is a mistake, and if it should just be the noun, meaning Asia Minor; I think there is room for interpretation here but if so I could at least use a scholarly source for this. Lostcaesar 08:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
What is our source that Herod died in March / April - the only info on this I could find was another wiki article (and that one didn't reference this). Lostcaesar 09:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
17.190 When he had done these things, he died, the fifth day after he had caused Antipater to be slain; having reigned, since he had procured Antigonus to be slain, thirty-four years; but since he had been declared king by the Romans, thirty-seven. Translator's Note: These numbers of years for Herod's reign, 34 and 37, are the very same with those, Of the War, B. I. ch. 33. sect. 8, and are among the principal chronological characters belonging to the reign or death of Herod. See Harm. p. 150--155.
17.167 And that very night there was an eclipse of the moon. Translator's Note: This eclipse of the moon (which is the only eclipse of either of the luminaries mentioned by our Josephus in any of his writings) is of the greatest consequence for the determination of the time for the death of Herod and Antipater, and for the birth and entire chronology of Jesus Christ. It happened March 13th, in the year of the Julian period 4710, and the 4th year before the Christian era. See its calculation by the rules of astronomy, at the end of the Astronomical Lectures, edit. Lat. p. 451, 452.
Two other sites for Antiquities:
Antiquties 17,
Antiquities 18—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
75.14.221.195 (
talk •
contribs) 17:58, 3 August 2006.
Excellent idea. Google search—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.14.221.195 ( talk • contribs) 18:39, 3 August 2006.
Does anyone have a picture of the Grotto in Bethelhem? That might be a nice addition. Likewise, and images of the inscriptions or stones mentioned in the article, or maybe old papyri with census info on them. Lostcaesar 20:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
My objective here is to get this article up to first rate standards by November or so. There is, of course, much interest in this around Christmas, and there happens to be a major movie coming out about the Nativity this Christmas. So I suspect there will be all sorts of TV documentaries and inquiries about this subject. Having a first class scholarly and unbiased view of the material in question would be a bit of a media coup for Wikipedia, I think, silently expanding the good reputation of the entire encyclopedia. Lostcaesar 22:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
http://www.ctsfw.edu/events/symposia/papers/sym2006steinmann.pdf
Proposes:
- Late 39 B.C. Herod appointed king by the Romans
- Tishri 38 B.C. Beginning of Herod’s first regnal year
- 10 Tishri 36 B.C. Herod conquers Jerusalem; Antigonus executed
- Tishri 35 B.C. Beginning of Herod’s first regnal year in Jerusalem
- 20 B.C. Herod begins work on the temple in Jerusalem ( Herod's Temple)
- Late 19 or early 20 B.C. Work on Temple building completed (probably meant to be late 20 early 19)
- 12 B.C. Work on Temple precincts completed (like Antonia Fortress)
- 11 or 10 B.C. Work on Caesarea Sebaste completed ( Caesarea Palaestina)
- 4 B.C. Murder of Herod’s brother Pheroras; Antipater deposed as Herod’s heir; Archelaus named Herod’s heir
- 2 B.C. Jesus born
- First quarter of 1 B.C. Antipater executed; Herod dies
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.14.221.214 ( talk • contribs) 00:48, 4 August 2006.
"Varus did show ineptitude as a governor later, in A.D. 9, when he suffered a devastating defeat in the Teutoberg forest": I am not aware of any evidence that Varus ever showed ineptitude as a governor (i.e. an administrator). The massacre of his legions in the forest was a purely military tactical error. If Varus had a reputation for general stupidity and incompetence before this, it seems unlikely that he would have been given command of three legions. Apparently the Germanic tribes were offended by his "arrogance": but if Varus was significantly more "arrogant" than other Roman governors, this makes it even less likely that he would have been sharing power with Quirinius earlier. -- Robert Stevens 13:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to Varus. This is overly speculative - IF he was considered militarily incompetent, and IF he was nevertheless appointed as a governor, and IF he was made to share power with Quirinius, this might be true. In the absence of any positive evidence, that's too many 'ifs'. Rbreen 11:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the title to this section is problematic. The fact of the matter is most biblical scholars accept that the two nativity accounts have a chronological inconsistency. They don't attempt to "solve" this "problem". They acknowledge it as an error and move on. This section deals with attempts to reconcile the contradiction. I believe this is called apologetics, or biblical inerrancy or some other theological concept. All that said, I cannot think of a better title. Maybe "Christian attempts to reconcile the inconsistencies"? Or "Conservative view" or something like that? -- Andrew c 03:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I see no problem with the "Solutions" section heading - there's a problem (the fact that the governorship of Q and the reign of H don't match up on the basis of known historical records), the problem has been recognised for centuries, and there have been various solutions put forward. But I do see a gaping hole in the section, which is the absence of the theory that Luke is wrong. This theory runs along these lines: Luke, writing decades after the events he describes, has a problem, which is that according to prophesy the messiah is to come from Bethlehem, while according to tradition Jesus is from Nazareth. Somehow he has to get Jesus born in Bethlehem. So he seizes on the well-known census of Qurinius and constructs a story around it. Problem solved - except that Luke is no historian, and gets his dates wrong. That's a very crude summary, and it does a disservice to Luke (more likely he was recording an oral tradition, one which he found personally appealing because of the way it brought in the prophesy), but it's certainly one that's advanced by scholars. Alas, I have no books, but if someone else would like to find the proper references it could go into this section. PiCo 10:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The Historical Jesus article says this:
This sounds like useful Josephus info for us here, does anyone know a text for this info? Lostcaesar 17:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the adjective 'specific' from the phrase saying there is no ((specific) evidence that the Lapis Tiburtinus erfers to Quirinius. The paragraph originally read as follows: :An inscription, known as the Lapis Tiburtinus, reads: "proconsul asiam provinciam opti… divi augusti iterum syriam et pho…" [2] Translated it reads: "Proconsul obtained the province Asia Minor… of the divine Augustus a second time in Syria…" This text, which is damaged (missing section represented above by "…"), could mean either that an individual held office in Syria twice, or simply that he held office twice in two different provinces. The stone bearing the inscription was found near the villa of Quintillus Varus, leading to speculation that he is the intended subject. In any case, there is no specific evidence that the text refers to Quirinius. My problem with this is the meaning of the word 'specific'. Or more precisely, my problem is that has no meaning. To say that there's no specific evidence linking the inscription to Quirinius implies that there's some other kind of evidedence. What other kind? Non-specific evidence? What's that, exactly? If there's any evidence linking the inscription to Quirinius, state it; if there's none, don't add qualifiers implying that that there is. PiCo 10:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I noticed a few days ago, LC removed the information from the Jesus Seminar, saying that a bible translation was not a good source. Although disagreeing with that assessment, I more importantly think we need to represent the majority view of historians/scholars: that is that Luke just got it wrong. It isn't necessarily his fault, keeping track of years was a lot harder back then, but still most people recognize that Josephus and Luke DO conflict, and that scholars side with Josephus over Luke. I put in 3 sources, but I can easily get more if necessary. I think we spend WAY too much space going over possibly reconciliations, when this is just a minority view. Thus we are giving undue weight and space to a minority position. I would support making that section more concise. I am also concerned about citing Nigel Turner and tectonics.org. I'm currently doing more research, but these things seem to be NN and non-RS.-- Andrew c 21:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
A serious and objective article on the Census of Quirinius would say succinctly what the census was, would cite the three sources which reference it, and would articulate mainstream scholarly interpretations. It would provide context by discussing what we know about other Roman censuses, and it would do so, unlike the "Roman Censuses" section of this article, without constantly attempting to prop up Luke's account and citing Stauffer and Ramsay. There is better, modern scholarship that readers would do better to consult. It would also, of course, include a discussion of Christian thought on the issue, and in this context it would perhaps cite the apologists. But instead of this we have a rather uneven article which spends nearly half of its words straying into the realm of original speculation, discussing probably-irrelevant inscriptions, and giving a selective account of Roman censuses in an attempt to make Luke's account seem less improbable.
All of these problems are not to be fixed by building up the "Luke in Error" section. 84.172.239.130 17:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC) ECKnibbs 17:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't have anything against using "old" sources either; I happen to believe that Mabillon's De re diplomatica is one of the richest and most intelligent studies ever written on medieval documents. But I would never write an article that cited only Mabillon, or even that cited mostly Mabillon. There is too much modern scholarship. Yet this article's "Roman Censuses" section sources key assertions to two relatively early apologetic texts. This needs to be fixed. And, now that I reread it, the two opening sentences of the final paragraph need to be reworked. I see that someone has already asked for a citation, but that doesn't seem to go far enough. What are "Jewish administrative customs" with respect to censuses really? I don't think there are any, to be honest. And I see no relationship between instances in which Roman citizens were enrolled according to tribe (could we cite these?), and the story in Luke, which says that enrollment was based on ancestry.
Finally, I do not complain about the present article because it cites views that I disagree with it; I complain about it because it is badly sourced, it wanders off topic, and it risks being disingenuous, for reasons I've gone on about at length. More is not always better, and sometimes the careful cutting of material brings needed clarity and can even make certain texts (especially reference works) easier to use. ECKnibbs 10:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I earlier interpreted "ante militiem" in the Aemilius Secundus inscription as showing that some posts were listed out of chronological sequence. This is in line with Sherk's translation ("before service (in my equestrian officer posts)"), but I now see that Braund translates "by accelerated promotion". Still, it's not obvious from reading the inscription that it's placing the census before the campaign against the Ituraeans (neither to me nor to Sherk, who gives the date as AD 6 in his heading), which means a citation is needed. We also need a citation to establish that the campaign must be dated before AD 6.
I hope it doesn't seem that I'm raising problems needlessly. EALacey 13:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Moved from main article space:
While the two points may very well be sourced in ancient sources, it is original research to make the jump that this historic oath has anthing to do with the Census of Quirinius or Luke's narrative. Citing a blog, again, is not a reliable source. We need to cite a scholar who makes this connection. If not, this information is simply off topic.- Andrew c 17:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, here is a more recent reference. Paul W. Barnett, Expository Times, 85 {1973-74}, pps. 377-380]. This can be downloaded (PDF file) from this site (free subscription) [6]. Barnett is Anglican Bishop of North Sydney [7], and is an author of scholastic works. Regarding Josephus; yes I've heard he is a bit flakey, but this registration that he mentioned is also mentioned by several other ancient historians. It is not "original research" to make the "jump/connection" to Luke's narrative. It is an obvious possibility; the right place, the right time. Let the reader decide. Other writers are concluding that Luke was a liar. This article needs to show there are other solutions. And I have just found this more extensive and easier to follow reference [8] ross nixon 03:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed from Two governorships of Quirinius:
Antioch, Pisidia was located in the province of Galatia and was several hundred kilometres from Syria. The paragraph provides no explanation of how Quirinius' duovirate there has any relevance to any position in Syria. One of the pro-Luke external links mentions the inscription, but doesn't explain its relevance. I don't think the inscriptions should be discussed in that section of the article unless we can cite a scholar who actually argues that they support the "two governorships" theory. EALacey 10:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The Luke in error section currently only quotes the conclusions of various authors. It would be possible to expand it to include the arguments for Luke's account as inaccurate, but I'm wondering whether that's the best way to structure the article. The "pro-" and "anti-accuracy" sections of the article would have to interact with evidence presented on the opposing side; if adhered to rigidly, the division would require us to mention the attribution of the Lapis Tiburtinus to Quirinius in the "pro-" section, and then bring it up again in the "anti-" section to note that it has also been attributed to other senators. This would be needlessly confusing, and as the article stands multiple views on the inscription are discussed in a single paragraph under Two governorships of Quirinius.
It seems to me that there's a good case for using this section to set out all the arguments, both for and against, relating to the "two governorships" theory. Other issues could be treated similarly in their own sections.
Another potential problem with the accurate/inaccurate divison is that some may conclude that Luke was correct on some details but not on others; for example, Sherwin-White thinks it conceivable that Quirinius held office in the time of Herod, but denies that there could have been a Roman census in Judaea at this time. If we discuss each issue separately, it becomes easier to represent the views of such authors.
Thoughts? EALacey 19:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
The intro to the "Problems and Solutions" section ends with the statement that the mainstream position is that Luke is in error. I propose killing the "Luke in Error" section, taking the quotes collected there, and inserting a representative quote after the concluding statement of the "Problems and Solutions" intro. This would back up the early statement that the mainstream position finds Luke inaccurate. We could then footnote the other quoted "Luke in error" positions. Then, instead of maintaining the accurate/inaccurate organization (which may actually set up a false dichotomoy--a lot of opinions aren't that simple), we can insert opposing "inaccurate" views into the discussion of the various proposed solutions, as approrpiate. (Sorry if this isn't clear, am getting a little tired.) ECKnibbs 20:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we could fill a library with the number of solutions various people have proposed for the chronology problem (I have been reading them all day)--but most of them are slight variations upon the solutions already listed. One rather original position, though, is proposed by J. Duncan M. Derrett, "Further Light on the Narratives of the Nativity," Novum Testamentum 17.2 (April, 1975), pp. 81-108. For what it's worth I think the article is just a bit foolish (not that this matters), but if we can work out whether it's gained any traction in subsequent authors, we might want to stick it in. Derrett thinks the main problem is that "Scholars have been confused by Matthew and have fallen into a pre-critical harmonisation of the two Gospels" (p. 83). He argues that Luke meant to date the nativity to A.D. 6, though this conflicts with Matthew; and that the Herod Luke refers to is not Herod the Great, but Herod Archelaus (thus eliminating the difficulties caused by the fact that Herod the Great died in 4 B.C.). Luke dates the beginning of Jesus' ministry to A.D. 28 or 29, which would make Jesus 24 years old under Derrett's scheme. This brings Jesus' age out of alignment with the prophecy in II Sam. 5.4, and I think it's worth asking whether the author of Luke would have been willing to do such a thing, but that's just me. Derrett also has a strange bit on the significance of Quirinius' name (which I will just pass over in silence) and fills the rest of his article with all manner of speculation. ECKnibbs 20:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry if it seems I'm beating this topic to death, but I'm procrastinating, and I think it's important for the 'two governorships' theory.
As it turns out, the entire issue is dealt with in a short article by J.G.C. Anderson, "The Position Held by Quirinius for the Homanadensian War' in The Cambridge Ancient History, vol. X: The Augustan Empire (44 B.C. - A.D. 70), ed. S.A. Cook, F.E. Adcock, M.P. Charlesworth (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1934, repr. with corrections 1989), pp. 877-8 (in the 'Notes' section). A big change of opinion happened around 1933-4, when Syme published a few articles, culminating in the Klio article I cited above. Before Syme, the prevailing opinion was that Quirinius conducted the Homanadensian War as governor of Syria, "for Syria was the only consular province in the East with an army and it was from Syria that troops were normally drawn for service in Asia Minor" (Anderson, p. 878). Luke was considered part of the evidence, along with the Tiburtine stone and a few other bits, for Quirinius' first governorship of Syria.
Syme pretty much put an end to this way of thinking. He argued that Quirinius conducted the Homanadensian war as governor of Galatia and Pamphylia. Before Q., he thinks Piso was governor of Galatia; when Q. went of to Syria in A.D. 6, he argues that Plautius Silvanus took over. What are the problems with Q. as governor of Syria during the Homanadensian campaign? They are "1) A second tenure of Syria or indeed any other consular province under one and the same emperor by a senator who was not a member of the imperial house is unparalleled, and the Tiburtine inscription speaks, not of a second tenure, but of a second legateship with Syria as the province assigned: the words are [legatus pr.pr.] divi Augusti [i]terum Syriam et Ph[oenicen optinuit...]. 2) The statement of St Luke is in conflict with several undoubted facts and disaccords with his reference in Acts V, 37 to 'the census,' which, when compared with the evidence of Josephus, is seen to imply the census of A.D. 6/7, taken when Judaea became a Roman privince."
A lot of the argument against identifying the Tiburtine inscription with Quirinius was developed by someone named Groag, in an unnamed article in Jahreshefte des österreichischen archäologischen Instituts in Wien , 21-22 (1924), pp. 448ff. Syme put this to work in hammering out the sequence of early governors of Galatia, which is now accepted basically everywhere. See, for example, the B.M. Levick, "Greece and Asia Minor from 43 B.C. to A.D. 69" in the updated Cambridge Ancient History (Cambridge, 1996: 2nd ed.), vol. X, p. 650, writing about the Homanadensian war which she dates after 6 B.C.: "the forty-four castella of the Homanadenses were captured by the distinguished governor of Galatia P. Sulpicius Quirinius..." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ECKnibbs ( talk • contribs) 15:54, 15 January 2007 (UTC). P.S. Sorry, forgot to sign. ECKnibbs 16:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC) P.S.S. Have since corrected a misquote since first posting. ECKnibbs 17:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
This sentence needs to go: "Josephus also mentioned a dual-governing of Volumnius and Sentius Saturninus in Syria from 9 to 6 B.C., although certain interpretations dispute this." "Certain interpretations" do not "dispute" this. It is simply wrong. The Josephus passage cited reads simply that both Volumnius and Saturninus were in charge of Syria (or words to that effect: I fear I cannot read Greek, but none of the translations have anything more specific). That hardly implies a dual governorship. And in The Wars of the Jews 1.538 (just a year or two later) we read that Volumnius was either a prefect or a procurator : i.e., that he was an equestrian, and certainly not governor. But which secondary source does this whole assertion come from anyway? ECKnibbs 19:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The following is a list of further statements I would like to remove, unless they can be clarified and/or sourced:
--"Varus did show martial ineptitude as a governor later, in A.D. 9, when he suffered a devastating defeat in the Teutoberg forest. There is mention of Quirinius in the East on military functions." The first sentence argues by innuendo. Has any secondary source argued that Varus was an inept soldier and thus had to share the governorship with Quirinius in Syria before 4 B.C.? If not, this sentence should go. The second sentence is irrelevant to the two governorships theory.
--"Though rare, the use of two governing authorities occurred in Africa under Caligula, and also in Palestine during Vespasian's campaigns." What are our sources for these assertions? What was the administrative status of these "governing authorities"? Has anyone used this argument to support the two governorships theory? Unless we can be more specific and link this argument to a secondary source, it needs to go.
--"Whatever the case, the census only mentions "citizens" (i.e. Romans, not Jews), but it is consistent with the hypothesis that Quirinius conducted censuses while militarily governing in Syria before his provincial governorship." This is argumentative and smells like POV. We have already said that Ramsay made this argument and I think that is sufficient. The cited inscriptions are "consistent" with the hypothesis only in the sense that they do not contradict it (remember, these inscriptions are not internally dated, and Millar's standard book identifies them with the A.D. 6). In this sense, almost all of recorded history is "consistent" with this hypothesis.
--"Generally an imperial census was not conducted in a Roman client kingdom, though it did infrequently occur." When did this occur? Where? What are our sources? Has any secondary source argued that this constitutes a precedent for a census during the reign of Herod the Great? Unless all these questions can be answered, this needs to go.
--"A Zealots tax revolt accompanied the taxation of Judea in A.D. 6, which drew the attention of Josephus. This has given rise to the speculation that, if there were an earlier enrolment in 4 B.C., it would likely have evoked the same response and subsequent attention of Josephus, unless this enrolment did not involve immediate taxation (such as implied by the enrolment papers mentioned above)." We should at least cite the loci in Josephus for this revolt. Who generated the "speculation" referenced in the second sentence? If this cannot be sourced it needs to go.
ECKnibbs 12:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I've placed a brief paragraph on the issue under Details of census practice. EALacey 10:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
ECKnibbs has removed a statement from the article that a Roman census in a client kingdom "did infrequently occur". I think that this was the right think to do, at least until it can be sourced. However, its removal has called attention to a problem with the entire " A Roman census under Herod" section.
The article is no longer making an argument for the possibility of a Roman census of a client kingdom in general, but most of the section in question (especially the paragraph beginning "Augustus had an interest...") is devoted to arguments for the plausibility of such a census in Herodian Judaea specifically. These surely have no point unless one allows for the general possibility. It seems to me we need either to remove those arguments to Talk as well, or find a source for the original statement. EALacey 20:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I propose the following revision for the "Roman census under Herod" and the "details of census practice" sections, which I'd like to merge (again). I have revised both sections so that each paragraph introduces an argument which has been advanced against the account of Luke, and then describes a counter-argument. Obviously some of this (especially the last paragraph) can be exapnded, but if this is unobjectionable I'd like to stick it in:
Suggested section title: "Plausibility" (or "The Plausibility of Luke's Account" or something similar)
This revision eliminates these statements, for reasons stated:
Often, a census will only be mentioned in one ancient text (for example, only Josephus mentioned directly the census of A.D. 6).
Furthermore, the censuses in Egypt were based on the Egyptian, rather than Roman, calendar.
...and Josephus records a mandatory "oath of obedience" to Augustus required in Judea at a similar time, which involved the erecting of statues to the emperor.
Certain official enrolment papers have been discovered in Palestine, regularly taken from no later than A.D. 20 to the time of Emperor Constantine, which includes information on each family based on the testimony of the head of household. These are unknown to the historical sources.
Palestine had been subject to many Roman military campaigns and tribute payment, beginning with Pompey in 48 B.C., and it is not unfair to characterize Herod largely as a Roman puppet. Herod, who likewise was required to pay tribute, had been established as king by Marc Anthony and the Roman Senate.
ECKnibbs 11:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, I will now, as I said above, move to the point of your specific comments. I suppose, however, that I should first respond to the text you gave above briefly. I do request that we discuss disputed changes on talk and attempt to come to an agreement, and I don't think that is very unreasonable. As for the structuring, you certainly could separate the restructuring from the other edits. Simply make two edits. In the first, you only move the text around. In the second, you then change the places in the text you wish. This is courteous to other editors like myself because it is easier to compare the changes (otherwise, with all the moving, everything appears red in a comparison, not just the revised text). As for (5), the point of the tag is to give editors the opportunity and time to determine whether something is "a synthesis of published material serving to advance a position" or whether instead it is in accord with policy. You have jumped to a conclusion in regards to some passages. Now for my last point I will perhaps be a little more harsh. There were two posts recently, one where various comments were asked to be sourced, and another where various changes were propose, including the renaming of a title, the restructuring of a section, the rewording of existing lines, and the removal of others. I then found three sources to help with the first request, gave a comment for each sentence proposed to be removed, and imported some of the text I could easily agree with. Then, you implemented the whole of the changes proposed. I think it is rather fair to ask for a bit slower of a process and a bit more discussion, and it is rather unfair for you to say it will not develop because you keep reverting edits – clearly things are developing, and I only reverted once, and only because they were moving too fast for me (or, anyone but you) to participate in the editing. Lastly, I also object to the statement: …in doing so you concentrate all energy on the talk page, where it does no good – this is the purpose of the talk page, and I make no apology for concentrating energy here, though the history of the article hardly shows that I concentrate all my energy here. That is just false; I have worked to make your proposals happen, at least to an extent.
Now for the specifics. (1) You agree that there is a paucity of sources, and your only objetion is that the article spends too much time on the matter. But your edits did not reduce the text; all they did, instead, was to rephrase things so as the paucity is concealed. As such, I do not understand this edit. (2) As for the Egyptian censuses, I believe that the Catholic Encyclopedia article mentions them in regards to the matter at hand. I will have a look when I get a moment. It (and many others) certainly do about enrollment papers (do you dispute this?). I haven't been able to grab a bunch of sources for this from the library yet , hopefully soon. (3) As for the characterization of Herod as a puppet, it is quite standard (as I am sure you well know), and I imagine that Grant gives such a characterization in his biography. Again, when I get a moment, I shall look. I wish this could be tagged until then to help me (or anyone else) remember to look. (4) As for Varus. I did write that comment. Such was the teaching of one of my history profs. Now this is not an acceptable source unless he has published that opinion (and he is well published) or got that opinion from a published source, in which case it is acceptable. I had hope to have some time to look, but I understand the removal of this passage. If I did not have to look up 10 sentences in 2 days I might have determined whether or not this was present in a proper source. Lostcaesar 20:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've added a section for those authors who want to solve the problem by taking Luke at his word and dating Jesus's birth to A.D. 6 (problems with Matthew be damned). Among the three sources I have for this position is an online essay I just found, at infidels.org ( [11] ). I wanted to head off any controversy about this right now: the essay is decent and balanced, and though I suppose written for the polemical purpose of finding contradictions in the Gospels, it is not itself overly polemical, it cites the same standard literature that we do (nothing but scholarly articles in the footnotes), it defends Luke from many of the overly skeptical attacks, and in my opinion it is a pretty decent piece of work and worthy of citation. Certainly, if we can cite the Catholic Encyclopedia, I think we can cite this. I am willing to remove it later if we find better source for this specific variation on the argument (Carrier argues the position as if it were his own, though); but right now, I think citing him allows us to articulate one way out of at least some of the conflicts with Matthew. So let's keep him. ECKnibbs 10:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Section 2.1 is not really about the role of Quirinius; it is about the hypothesis that Luke describes a second, earlier census than that mentioned by Josephus. Accordingly, I propose retitling this section "Earlier census" or something. Then I'd like to bump up "Alternative translation of Luke" to 2.1.1 (some argue that Luke explicitly calls it the first census--a nice short intro to the whole section), leaving "Two governorships of Quirinius" as 2.1.2. Then I'd like to move the disputed 2.3 "Plausibility" bit, in whatever form it ultimately assumes, up under this heading, as section 2.1.3, and perhaps retitle it again ("Plausibility of earlier census," or something similar). All of these pieces assume an earlier census distinct from that recounted in Josephus, and I think this is the real 'solution' on offer here.
Then we should take 'Luke in error' and incorporate it within the introduction of the section, as we resolved above.
Any agreement for this? It will make further expansions and incorporations of other material, from Braunert et al., a bit easier and more straightforward.
ECKnibbs 14:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I will be brief, taking the advice above. I made some structural changes which seem an improvement. I made the plausibility analysis of a census under herod into a subgroup of the dual-governing hypothesis. The alt trans of Luke, and the reinterpretation of his text (conta-Matthew) were elevated to maingroup status. Material about the details of luke, aside from the dual-governing, were moved to its own section. I also added some references and the like. Lastly, I cut the text by Carrier - who is he? Lostcaesar 15:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC) Oh yeah, and I didn't like the rearrangement of the sources section, where Josephus had been put first. If we do that then we skip Herod and go straight past his reign, then go back in time - its confusing. Lostcaesar 15:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The current reordering of the sources as it now reads assumes that Luke mentions the same census as Josephus and is also not chronological insofar as most would agree that Luke's date for the census he mentions is a decade before Josephus's date. That seems confusing to me. Lostcaesar 12:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I have already tried to eliminate the article's thinly sourced statements about the possibility of co-governorships (or "co-governing"). I am going to take them out again. These are sourced only to a polemical article in the Catholic Encyclopedia, which cites no source at all and discusses these supposed instances of "co-governing" so vaguely as to make the assertions meaningless. The possibility that Quirinius is "co-governor" is not raised in any other serious, academic literature, as far as I can tell.
ECKnibbs 17:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Rbreen 20:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The hedging about an imperial census is unnecessary and risks being incorrect. What is unprecedented is an imperially ordered census in a client kingdom--however we imagine it was conducted. So I am going to take it out again.
ECKnibbs 17:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Two things here: first, we have another quote from a very old (1913) Catholic Encylopedia - do we have any more up to date statement of this argument? Secondly, Sherwin-White is quoted as suggesting that a policy of universal registration was first implemented by Quirinius in Judea - presumably this would only be possible after 6AD when he was in charge of the census Josephus mentions, in which case this point would surely undermine the 'two-census' theory? Can anyone confirm what he is implying here? Rbreen 21:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The article spends a paragraph discussing Stauffer's strange argument about a delayed census, and I am going to take it out. This material is 1) written by a theologian for apologetic purposes, and 2) also completely unsupported by the scholarly literature on the census, and this is most likely because 3) it conflicts with any reasonable reading Josephus. Josephus not only says that Quirinius finished the census in A.D. 6, but his narrative earlier shows that the census was begun only after the removal of Archelaus, which itself must have taken place in A.D. 6, or "the tenth year" of Archelaus' reign (cf. Antiquities 17.342ff, 18.1-2, and probably other places too). The revolt happened directly afterwards. In other words, according to Josephus, there were no delays, and even if there were, they would simply push the date of taxation later than A.D. 6, by Josephus' own dating scheme. So Stauffer's argument is in open conflict with our main source for the census and it is unreasonable and misleading as well. ECKnibbs 10:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
One thing that has puzzled me about this article is why the option that Luke has simply got his facts wrong is the last one considered. Not only is it the simplest - and therefore, by the principle of parsimony, the most likely to be correct - but is also (to judge by the somewhat tortuous discussion of the alternatives) the least problematic. I believe it is probably the most widely held, especially by classical historians. I have moved it to the top.
Some of the other options need to be clarified as well are they compatible or contradictory. If Quirinius was governing Syria before 6 AD but after Herod, does that not still clash with the Matthew account which is still pre-Herod?
Rbreen 13:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
"In 1938, F.M. Heichelheim proposed an alternate translation of Luke 2:2, suggesting that it might be rendered: This census was the first before the census taken when Quirinius was governor." Shouldn't it be, "This census was before the census taken when Q was gov."? The word that used to mean "first" now is being translated as "before". Lostcaesar 13:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
In Anne Rice's book "Christ the Lord: Out of Egypt" she has Joseph going to Bethlehem for the tax because he owned a small plot of land in the environs, and so had to go for the tax... I presume that she took this from one of her many listed sources, but don't have access to them to cite the correct one. But it is at least a reasonable theory. Maybe someone has a source that could add this to the "Details" section (citing a work of historical fiction doesn't quite seem right...) 62.101.102.226 09:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
In this edit, the summary of Josephus' account was changed to remove references to Joazar and Zadok on the grounds that their inclusion "takes away from the topic and might be confusing". I can only guess that "the topic" means the issue of Luke's accuracy with which most of the article is concerned. While this article was created at " The Census of Quirinius and the Gospels", it is now titled " Census of Quirinius", and I can't see a basis for excluding material relevant to Quirinius' census(es) which doesn't bear on Luke. Issues relating to the Lukan account are the topic of most relevant scholarly discussion, and so it's reasonable that they occupy most of the article, but the details of Josephus' account are of interest to scholars of Roman and Jewish history. EALacey 18:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
It's my impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the vast majority of scholars who are not doctrinally committed to biblical inerrancy consider the "Luke in error" theory to be correct. Yet that section takes up less than 10% of this article. This seems like a violation of WP:WEIGHT. I guess the way to rectify this would be to have more material in this section, yet it already covers most of their arguments. Maybe put some of the rebuttals to the other theories in this section? Any comments? Grover cleveland 14:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I think there is a way forward for everyone involved here. Originally, there was an article called "Bible Census" or something like that, with almost no information. I created an article, "The Census of Quirinius and the Gospels", with the aim of providing a useful discussion of the problems between the relations amongst Luke, Matthew, and Josephus. The name was eventually shortened to "Census of Quirinius".
The difficulty is that there are two issues here; that is, two reasons to care about this topic. One is the point I just mentioned, the relations amongst the sources and, especially, the impact on biblical inerrancy. The other is a more purely historical interest in just the census of AD 6 by Quirinius, its impact on the history of Zealotry, and its place in the career of a remarkable man. Now between these two issues I think we can fairly say that, for an audience of educated English-speaking readers, the one most people are interested in is the first.
Far more people will care about the impact on biblical inerrancy (including those who want to disprove it), than about an otherwise dry and rather obscure enrollment that happened a long time ago in a backwater province of the empire. And I think the contributions here have shown that, since everyone involved has only sought to discuss the Biblical issue (and honestly, ask yourself why you are interested, and I think you'll find it true). But the shifting of the title has created a tension between the two issues which, though related (and religious questions are always historical in nature when revelation is involved), can be separated to the mutual benefit of all.
But I think the solution here is to make this article about the undisputed census of AD 6 and its place in the history of zealotry and to move the detailed information about Luke (etc) to another article, perhaps "Luke 2" or perhaps its own, with links there from "Luke 2", the "Nativity", etc. As far as I know historians in general do not take up the question of an earlier census of Quirinius, and so that could be left aside. The issue of an alternate translation argues in such a way as to free Quirinius from any necessary earlier involvement in Syria; in other words, it makes a pro-Luke case without changing the otherwise known facts or expanding of Quirinius's career. The same could be said for "Jesus born AD6". Thus, these two matters need not be mentioned.
Now let me say that there is only one way this will work, and that is if we do not add snide or petty comments about St. Luke in this article — and you know what I'm talking about. It seems like every article, from the Nativity, to Luke 2, to the main article on Quirinius, has some comment the purpose of which is to make the reader think that Luke got things wrong. We don't need to get into the validity of this statement. We only need to observe, and we can all agree to this, that it is just one PoV and on this question there are others which are noteworthy and, frankly, not advanced by fools (as the snide comments would imply).
So I think this is the way forward. It will allow us to preserve all the information we have gathered (and we should be careful to preserve it when moving text). And it will be a good compromise. But please, when working on articles that affect the issue of inerrancy, be respectful of the position that Luke isn't wrong and don't word things in a way so as to gab the reader with the contrary point of view. And you know what I mean: they end up saying by implication "real scholars who are not biased know Luke is wrong and thus the Bible is in error." I know you probably belive that statement is true with all your heart, but please realise that its a pov statement contested by people who are allowed a place in the world of scholarship, and whose argument ought to be heard if for no other reason than because its the argument of nearly 2 billion people.
If we manage to do this, I might actually be able to retire from editing for good.
86.141.9.225 14:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I cannot agree that that would be an adequate solution. The danger is that this is simply content forking, avoiding the essential issue.
I can see no point in addressing the points you make here; if you can seriously characterise the simple historical argument (which is, as I have said and believe, the majority one) that Luke has got his facts wrong as "real scholars who are not biased know Luke is wrong and thus the Bible is in error", there is nothing more I can say. It is unfair, unreasonable and emotive.
We have here an article which is much too long, weighed down with the debris of a prolonged citation war, often confusing and unreadable, something more like a private obsession than an encylopedic article. I and others have tried to produce something readable and balanced, which reflects both sides without giving undue weight to a minority position that appears driven by a need to make the facts fit the interpretation, and not the other way round. I could add more citations but the point where that is useful has clearly passed.
What this article desperately needs is the opinion of people who are not involved. I had hoped others might comment, but I suspect many are put off by the sheer level of detail. We clearly need some sort of dispute resolution process - I suggest an approach to the Mediation Cabal. Will you accept mediation? Rbreen 22:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is titled "Census of Quirinius" but the majority of the content focuses on the sources, not the subject of the article. I see no problem making a separate article about the veracity of the sources, as long as what the sources actually say about the census remain in this article. They're two different topics, not a POV fork.
In other words, I recommend scrapping the "Problems and solutions" section and everything that follows. Put that material elsewhere if you want. In my opinion a debate about the arcane details in each historical source has no place in this article about the census. - Amatulic 16:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted everyone who watches this page to know about Crucifixion eclipse. It is another article about a possibly historical event described in the gospels, like the Census. Editors have raised concerns about the tone, and whether this event actually occurred as described in the gospels. I feel like we've done a decent job tangling with similar issues here, and invite anyones interested to take a look. Thanks.- Andrew c 20:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Luke is cited at times of being in error because his references seem to be at variance with Josephus. However, Luke's writings were widely read at a time and in a location in which many living people could dispute the information based on personal knowledge. Leading Jews in the community would have good reason to make much of any inaccuracy in Luke’s recitation of history, and Jews are notorious for their nitpicking in that area. Are there any writings which reflect disputes of that nature written during that period of time? Anything written after the death of eye witnesses is second hand and not useful. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mikimeadows ( talk • contribs) 15:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC).
Today, these sentences are removed: "But it is important that the Bible never calls Quirinius "the governor" (New King James Version). It says that Quirinius was "governing" in Syria. And we know that he was indeed governing in some capacity in this region at this time, perhaps in 8 B.C. or 7 B.C." In combination with the next sentence it could be most important: "According to Austrian Professor Konradin Ferrari d'Occhieppo — in many books between 1965 and 2003 —, the star of Bethlehem was not only a triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC. The astronomer had interpreted the words "stood over" as a term that refer the retrogradation and stationing of the royal star Jupiter or Saturn in the sign of Pisces (=land in the west) in 12 November 7 BC since 854 (!) years. In the astronomer’s opinion this rare event was certainly important for everyone." Also it is said Quirinius had the power of three legions in Syria in 8/7 B.C. --- Dietmar 19:52, 18 June 2007
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Greetings,
I created this article out of a perceived need. This is specifically to explain the problems surrounding the census of Quirinius as described by Luke, Josephus, and also the relation to the Gospel of Matthew. Both the Chronology of Jesus and several other pages on Jesus, as well as the Gospels, took up this matter piecemeal and briefly. This, I think, it a helpful outlet for them. Lostcaesar 01:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Did the census include Syria? I personally don't know, so I'm asking. Josephus would be the source.
Nevermind, answered my own question:
HOW CYRENIUS WAS SENT BY CAESAR TO MAKE A TAXATION OF SYRIA AND JUDEA; AND HOW COPONIUS WAS SENT TO BE PROCURATOR OF JUDEA; CONCERNING JUDAS OF GALILEE AND CONCERNING THE SECTS THAT WERE AMONG THE JEWS.
I translated "proconsul asiam provinciam op… divi augusti iterum syriam" myself, but I could use someone who is expert in reading inscriptions to check this out; inscription, with their missing letters and shorthand script at notoriously hard to read. Particularly, I wonder if my rendering of asiam as the adjective modifying syriam is a mistake, and if it should just be the noun, meaning Asia Minor; I think there is room for interpretation here but if so I could at least use a scholarly source for this. Lostcaesar 08:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
What is our source that Herod died in March / April - the only info on this I could find was another wiki article (and that one didn't reference this). Lostcaesar 09:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
17.190 When he had done these things, he died, the fifth day after he had caused Antipater to be slain; having reigned, since he had procured Antigonus to be slain, thirty-four years; but since he had been declared king by the Romans, thirty-seven. Translator's Note: These numbers of years for Herod's reign, 34 and 37, are the very same with those, Of the War, B. I. ch. 33. sect. 8, and are among the principal chronological characters belonging to the reign or death of Herod. See Harm. p. 150--155.
17.167 And that very night there was an eclipse of the moon. Translator's Note: This eclipse of the moon (which is the only eclipse of either of the luminaries mentioned by our Josephus in any of his writings) is of the greatest consequence for the determination of the time for the death of Herod and Antipater, and for the birth and entire chronology of Jesus Christ. It happened March 13th, in the year of the Julian period 4710, and the 4th year before the Christian era. See its calculation by the rules of astronomy, at the end of the Astronomical Lectures, edit. Lat. p. 451, 452.
Two other sites for Antiquities:
Antiquties 17,
Antiquities 18—The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
75.14.221.195 (
talk •
contribs) 17:58, 3 August 2006.
Excellent idea. Google search—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.14.221.195 ( talk • contribs) 18:39, 3 August 2006.
Does anyone have a picture of the Grotto in Bethelhem? That might be a nice addition. Likewise, and images of the inscriptions or stones mentioned in the article, or maybe old papyri with census info on them. Lostcaesar 20:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
My objective here is to get this article up to first rate standards by November or so. There is, of course, much interest in this around Christmas, and there happens to be a major movie coming out about the Nativity this Christmas. So I suspect there will be all sorts of TV documentaries and inquiries about this subject. Having a first class scholarly and unbiased view of the material in question would be a bit of a media coup for Wikipedia, I think, silently expanding the good reputation of the entire encyclopedia. Lostcaesar 22:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
http://www.ctsfw.edu/events/symposia/papers/sym2006steinmann.pdf
Proposes:
- Late 39 B.C. Herod appointed king by the Romans
- Tishri 38 B.C. Beginning of Herod’s first regnal year
- 10 Tishri 36 B.C. Herod conquers Jerusalem; Antigonus executed
- Tishri 35 B.C. Beginning of Herod’s first regnal year in Jerusalem
- 20 B.C. Herod begins work on the temple in Jerusalem ( Herod's Temple)
- Late 19 or early 20 B.C. Work on Temple building completed (probably meant to be late 20 early 19)
- 12 B.C. Work on Temple precincts completed (like Antonia Fortress)
- 11 or 10 B.C. Work on Caesarea Sebaste completed ( Caesarea Palaestina)
- 4 B.C. Murder of Herod’s brother Pheroras; Antipater deposed as Herod’s heir; Archelaus named Herod’s heir
- 2 B.C. Jesus born
- First quarter of 1 B.C. Antipater executed; Herod dies
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.14.221.214 ( talk • contribs) 00:48, 4 August 2006.
"Varus did show ineptitude as a governor later, in A.D. 9, when he suffered a devastating defeat in the Teutoberg forest": I am not aware of any evidence that Varus ever showed ineptitude as a governor (i.e. an administrator). The massacre of his legions in the forest was a purely military tactical error. If Varus had a reputation for general stupidity and incompetence before this, it seems unlikely that he would have been given command of three legions. Apparently the Germanic tribes were offended by his "arrogance": but if Varus was significantly more "arrogant" than other Roman governors, this makes it even less likely that he would have been sharing power with Quirinius earlier. -- Robert Stevens 13:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the reference to Varus. This is overly speculative - IF he was considered militarily incompetent, and IF he was nevertheless appointed as a governor, and IF he was made to share power with Quirinius, this might be true. In the absence of any positive evidence, that's too many 'ifs'. Rbreen 11:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the title to this section is problematic. The fact of the matter is most biblical scholars accept that the two nativity accounts have a chronological inconsistency. They don't attempt to "solve" this "problem". They acknowledge it as an error and move on. This section deals with attempts to reconcile the contradiction. I believe this is called apologetics, or biblical inerrancy or some other theological concept. All that said, I cannot think of a better title. Maybe "Christian attempts to reconcile the inconsistencies"? Or "Conservative view" or something like that? -- Andrew c 03:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I see no problem with the "Solutions" section heading - there's a problem (the fact that the governorship of Q and the reign of H don't match up on the basis of known historical records), the problem has been recognised for centuries, and there have been various solutions put forward. But I do see a gaping hole in the section, which is the absence of the theory that Luke is wrong. This theory runs along these lines: Luke, writing decades after the events he describes, has a problem, which is that according to prophesy the messiah is to come from Bethlehem, while according to tradition Jesus is from Nazareth. Somehow he has to get Jesus born in Bethlehem. So he seizes on the well-known census of Qurinius and constructs a story around it. Problem solved - except that Luke is no historian, and gets his dates wrong. That's a very crude summary, and it does a disservice to Luke (more likely he was recording an oral tradition, one which he found personally appealing because of the way it brought in the prophesy), but it's certainly one that's advanced by scholars. Alas, I have no books, but if someone else would like to find the proper references it could go into this section. PiCo 10:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The Historical Jesus article says this:
This sounds like useful Josephus info for us here, does anyone know a text for this info? Lostcaesar 17:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the adjective 'specific' from the phrase saying there is no ((specific) evidence that the Lapis Tiburtinus erfers to Quirinius. The paragraph originally read as follows: :An inscription, known as the Lapis Tiburtinus, reads: "proconsul asiam provinciam opti… divi augusti iterum syriam et pho…" [2] Translated it reads: "Proconsul obtained the province Asia Minor… of the divine Augustus a second time in Syria…" This text, which is damaged (missing section represented above by "…"), could mean either that an individual held office in Syria twice, or simply that he held office twice in two different provinces. The stone bearing the inscription was found near the villa of Quintillus Varus, leading to speculation that he is the intended subject. In any case, there is no specific evidence that the text refers to Quirinius. My problem with this is the meaning of the word 'specific'. Or more precisely, my problem is that has no meaning. To say that there's no specific evidence linking the inscription to Quirinius implies that there's some other kind of evidedence. What other kind? Non-specific evidence? What's that, exactly? If there's any evidence linking the inscription to Quirinius, state it; if there's none, don't add qualifiers implying that that there is. PiCo 10:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I noticed a few days ago, LC removed the information from the Jesus Seminar, saying that a bible translation was not a good source. Although disagreeing with that assessment, I more importantly think we need to represent the majority view of historians/scholars: that is that Luke just got it wrong. It isn't necessarily his fault, keeping track of years was a lot harder back then, but still most people recognize that Josephus and Luke DO conflict, and that scholars side with Josephus over Luke. I put in 3 sources, but I can easily get more if necessary. I think we spend WAY too much space going over possibly reconciliations, when this is just a minority view. Thus we are giving undue weight and space to a minority position. I would support making that section more concise. I am also concerned about citing Nigel Turner and tectonics.org. I'm currently doing more research, but these things seem to be NN and non-RS.-- Andrew c 21:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
A serious and objective article on the Census of Quirinius would say succinctly what the census was, would cite the three sources which reference it, and would articulate mainstream scholarly interpretations. It would provide context by discussing what we know about other Roman censuses, and it would do so, unlike the "Roman Censuses" section of this article, without constantly attempting to prop up Luke's account and citing Stauffer and Ramsay. There is better, modern scholarship that readers would do better to consult. It would also, of course, include a discussion of Christian thought on the issue, and in this context it would perhaps cite the apologists. But instead of this we have a rather uneven article which spends nearly half of its words straying into the realm of original speculation, discussing probably-irrelevant inscriptions, and giving a selective account of Roman censuses in an attempt to make Luke's account seem less improbable.
All of these problems are not to be fixed by building up the "Luke in Error" section. 84.172.239.130 17:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC) ECKnibbs 17:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't have anything against using "old" sources either; I happen to believe that Mabillon's De re diplomatica is one of the richest and most intelligent studies ever written on medieval documents. But I would never write an article that cited only Mabillon, or even that cited mostly Mabillon. There is too much modern scholarship. Yet this article's "Roman Censuses" section sources key assertions to two relatively early apologetic texts. This needs to be fixed. And, now that I reread it, the two opening sentences of the final paragraph need to be reworked. I see that someone has already asked for a citation, but that doesn't seem to go far enough. What are "Jewish administrative customs" with respect to censuses really? I don't think there are any, to be honest. And I see no relationship between instances in which Roman citizens were enrolled according to tribe (could we cite these?), and the story in Luke, which says that enrollment was based on ancestry.
Finally, I do not complain about the present article because it cites views that I disagree with it; I complain about it because it is badly sourced, it wanders off topic, and it risks being disingenuous, for reasons I've gone on about at length. More is not always better, and sometimes the careful cutting of material brings needed clarity and can even make certain texts (especially reference works) easier to use. ECKnibbs 10:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I earlier interpreted "ante militiem" in the Aemilius Secundus inscription as showing that some posts were listed out of chronological sequence. This is in line with Sherk's translation ("before service (in my equestrian officer posts)"), but I now see that Braund translates "by accelerated promotion". Still, it's not obvious from reading the inscription that it's placing the census before the campaign against the Ituraeans (neither to me nor to Sherk, who gives the date as AD 6 in his heading), which means a citation is needed. We also need a citation to establish that the campaign must be dated before AD 6.
I hope it doesn't seem that I'm raising problems needlessly. EALacey 13:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Moved from main article space:
While the two points may very well be sourced in ancient sources, it is original research to make the jump that this historic oath has anthing to do with the Census of Quirinius or Luke's narrative. Citing a blog, again, is not a reliable source. We need to cite a scholar who makes this connection. If not, this information is simply off topic.- Andrew c 17:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, here is a more recent reference. Paul W. Barnett, Expository Times, 85 {1973-74}, pps. 377-380]. This can be downloaded (PDF file) from this site (free subscription) [6]. Barnett is Anglican Bishop of North Sydney [7], and is an author of scholastic works. Regarding Josephus; yes I've heard he is a bit flakey, but this registration that he mentioned is also mentioned by several other ancient historians. It is not "original research" to make the "jump/connection" to Luke's narrative. It is an obvious possibility; the right place, the right time. Let the reader decide. Other writers are concluding that Luke was a liar. This article needs to show there are other solutions. And I have just found this more extensive and easier to follow reference [8] ross nixon 03:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed from Two governorships of Quirinius:
Antioch, Pisidia was located in the province of Galatia and was several hundred kilometres from Syria. The paragraph provides no explanation of how Quirinius' duovirate there has any relevance to any position in Syria. One of the pro-Luke external links mentions the inscription, but doesn't explain its relevance. I don't think the inscriptions should be discussed in that section of the article unless we can cite a scholar who actually argues that they support the "two governorships" theory. EALacey 10:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The Luke in error section currently only quotes the conclusions of various authors. It would be possible to expand it to include the arguments for Luke's account as inaccurate, but I'm wondering whether that's the best way to structure the article. The "pro-" and "anti-accuracy" sections of the article would have to interact with evidence presented on the opposing side; if adhered to rigidly, the division would require us to mention the attribution of the Lapis Tiburtinus to Quirinius in the "pro-" section, and then bring it up again in the "anti-" section to note that it has also been attributed to other senators. This would be needlessly confusing, and as the article stands multiple views on the inscription are discussed in a single paragraph under Two governorships of Quirinius.
It seems to me that there's a good case for using this section to set out all the arguments, both for and against, relating to the "two governorships" theory. Other issues could be treated similarly in their own sections.
Another potential problem with the accurate/inaccurate divison is that some may conclude that Luke was correct on some details but not on others; for example, Sherwin-White thinks it conceivable that Quirinius held office in the time of Herod, but denies that there could have been a Roman census in Judaea at this time. If we discuss each issue separately, it becomes easier to represent the views of such authors.
Thoughts? EALacey 19:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
The intro to the "Problems and Solutions" section ends with the statement that the mainstream position is that Luke is in error. I propose killing the "Luke in Error" section, taking the quotes collected there, and inserting a representative quote after the concluding statement of the "Problems and Solutions" intro. This would back up the early statement that the mainstream position finds Luke inaccurate. We could then footnote the other quoted "Luke in error" positions. Then, instead of maintaining the accurate/inaccurate organization (which may actually set up a false dichotomoy--a lot of opinions aren't that simple), we can insert opposing "inaccurate" views into the discussion of the various proposed solutions, as approrpiate. (Sorry if this isn't clear, am getting a little tired.) ECKnibbs 20:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I think we could fill a library with the number of solutions various people have proposed for the chronology problem (I have been reading them all day)--but most of them are slight variations upon the solutions already listed. One rather original position, though, is proposed by J. Duncan M. Derrett, "Further Light on the Narratives of the Nativity," Novum Testamentum 17.2 (April, 1975), pp. 81-108. For what it's worth I think the article is just a bit foolish (not that this matters), but if we can work out whether it's gained any traction in subsequent authors, we might want to stick it in. Derrett thinks the main problem is that "Scholars have been confused by Matthew and have fallen into a pre-critical harmonisation of the two Gospels" (p. 83). He argues that Luke meant to date the nativity to A.D. 6, though this conflicts with Matthew; and that the Herod Luke refers to is not Herod the Great, but Herod Archelaus (thus eliminating the difficulties caused by the fact that Herod the Great died in 4 B.C.). Luke dates the beginning of Jesus' ministry to A.D. 28 or 29, which would make Jesus 24 years old under Derrett's scheme. This brings Jesus' age out of alignment with the prophecy in II Sam. 5.4, and I think it's worth asking whether the author of Luke would have been willing to do such a thing, but that's just me. Derrett also has a strange bit on the significance of Quirinius' name (which I will just pass over in silence) and fills the rest of his article with all manner of speculation. ECKnibbs 20:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry if it seems I'm beating this topic to death, but I'm procrastinating, and I think it's important for the 'two governorships' theory.
As it turns out, the entire issue is dealt with in a short article by J.G.C. Anderson, "The Position Held by Quirinius for the Homanadensian War' in The Cambridge Ancient History, vol. X: The Augustan Empire (44 B.C. - A.D. 70), ed. S.A. Cook, F.E. Adcock, M.P. Charlesworth (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1934, repr. with corrections 1989), pp. 877-8 (in the 'Notes' section). A big change of opinion happened around 1933-4, when Syme published a few articles, culminating in the Klio article I cited above. Before Syme, the prevailing opinion was that Quirinius conducted the Homanadensian War as governor of Syria, "for Syria was the only consular province in the East with an army and it was from Syria that troops were normally drawn for service in Asia Minor" (Anderson, p. 878). Luke was considered part of the evidence, along with the Tiburtine stone and a few other bits, for Quirinius' first governorship of Syria.
Syme pretty much put an end to this way of thinking. He argued that Quirinius conducted the Homanadensian war as governor of Galatia and Pamphylia. Before Q., he thinks Piso was governor of Galatia; when Q. went of to Syria in A.D. 6, he argues that Plautius Silvanus took over. What are the problems with Q. as governor of Syria during the Homanadensian campaign? They are "1) A second tenure of Syria or indeed any other consular province under one and the same emperor by a senator who was not a member of the imperial house is unparalleled, and the Tiburtine inscription speaks, not of a second tenure, but of a second legateship with Syria as the province assigned: the words are [legatus pr.pr.] divi Augusti [i]terum Syriam et Ph[oenicen optinuit...]. 2) The statement of St Luke is in conflict with several undoubted facts and disaccords with his reference in Acts V, 37 to 'the census,' which, when compared with the evidence of Josephus, is seen to imply the census of A.D. 6/7, taken when Judaea became a Roman privince."
A lot of the argument against identifying the Tiburtine inscription with Quirinius was developed by someone named Groag, in an unnamed article in Jahreshefte des österreichischen archäologischen Instituts in Wien , 21-22 (1924), pp. 448ff. Syme put this to work in hammering out the sequence of early governors of Galatia, which is now accepted basically everywhere. See, for example, the B.M. Levick, "Greece and Asia Minor from 43 B.C. to A.D. 69" in the updated Cambridge Ancient History (Cambridge, 1996: 2nd ed.), vol. X, p. 650, writing about the Homanadensian war which she dates after 6 B.C.: "the forty-four castella of the Homanadenses were captured by the distinguished governor of Galatia P. Sulpicius Quirinius..." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ECKnibbs ( talk • contribs) 15:54, 15 January 2007 (UTC). P.S. Sorry, forgot to sign. ECKnibbs 16:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC) P.S.S. Have since corrected a misquote since first posting. ECKnibbs 17:16, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
This sentence needs to go: "Josephus also mentioned a dual-governing of Volumnius and Sentius Saturninus in Syria from 9 to 6 B.C., although certain interpretations dispute this." "Certain interpretations" do not "dispute" this. It is simply wrong. The Josephus passage cited reads simply that both Volumnius and Saturninus were in charge of Syria (or words to that effect: I fear I cannot read Greek, but none of the translations have anything more specific). That hardly implies a dual governorship. And in The Wars of the Jews 1.538 (just a year or two later) we read that Volumnius was either a prefect or a procurator : i.e., that he was an equestrian, and certainly not governor. But which secondary source does this whole assertion come from anyway? ECKnibbs 19:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The following is a list of further statements I would like to remove, unless they can be clarified and/or sourced:
--"Varus did show martial ineptitude as a governor later, in A.D. 9, when he suffered a devastating defeat in the Teutoberg forest. There is mention of Quirinius in the East on military functions." The first sentence argues by innuendo. Has any secondary source argued that Varus was an inept soldier and thus had to share the governorship with Quirinius in Syria before 4 B.C.? If not, this sentence should go. The second sentence is irrelevant to the two governorships theory.
--"Though rare, the use of two governing authorities occurred in Africa under Caligula, and also in Palestine during Vespasian's campaigns." What are our sources for these assertions? What was the administrative status of these "governing authorities"? Has anyone used this argument to support the two governorships theory? Unless we can be more specific and link this argument to a secondary source, it needs to go.
--"Whatever the case, the census only mentions "citizens" (i.e. Romans, not Jews), but it is consistent with the hypothesis that Quirinius conducted censuses while militarily governing in Syria before his provincial governorship." This is argumentative and smells like POV. We have already said that Ramsay made this argument and I think that is sufficient. The cited inscriptions are "consistent" with the hypothesis only in the sense that they do not contradict it (remember, these inscriptions are not internally dated, and Millar's standard book identifies them with the A.D. 6). In this sense, almost all of recorded history is "consistent" with this hypothesis.
--"Generally an imperial census was not conducted in a Roman client kingdom, though it did infrequently occur." When did this occur? Where? What are our sources? Has any secondary source argued that this constitutes a precedent for a census during the reign of Herod the Great? Unless all these questions can be answered, this needs to go.
--"A Zealots tax revolt accompanied the taxation of Judea in A.D. 6, which drew the attention of Josephus. This has given rise to the speculation that, if there were an earlier enrolment in 4 B.C., it would likely have evoked the same response and subsequent attention of Josephus, unless this enrolment did not involve immediate taxation (such as implied by the enrolment papers mentioned above)." We should at least cite the loci in Josephus for this revolt. Who generated the "speculation" referenced in the second sentence? If this cannot be sourced it needs to go.
ECKnibbs 12:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I've placed a brief paragraph on the issue under Details of census practice. EALacey 10:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
ECKnibbs has removed a statement from the article that a Roman census in a client kingdom "did infrequently occur". I think that this was the right think to do, at least until it can be sourced. However, its removal has called attention to a problem with the entire " A Roman census under Herod" section.
The article is no longer making an argument for the possibility of a Roman census of a client kingdom in general, but most of the section in question (especially the paragraph beginning "Augustus had an interest...") is devoted to arguments for the plausibility of such a census in Herodian Judaea specifically. These surely have no point unless one allows for the general possibility. It seems to me we need either to remove those arguments to Talk as well, or find a source for the original statement. EALacey 20:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I propose the following revision for the "Roman census under Herod" and the "details of census practice" sections, which I'd like to merge (again). I have revised both sections so that each paragraph introduces an argument which has been advanced against the account of Luke, and then describes a counter-argument. Obviously some of this (especially the last paragraph) can be exapnded, but if this is unobjectionable I'd like to stick it in:
Suggested section title: "Plausibility" (or "The Plausibility of Luke's Account" or something similar)
This revision eliminates these statements, for reasons stated:
Often, a census will only be mentioned in one ancient text (for example, only Josephus mentioned directly the census of A.D. 6).
Furthermore, the censuses in Egypt were based on the Egyptian, rather than Roman, calendar.
...and Josephus records a mandatory "oath of obedience" to Augustus required in Judea at a similar time, which involved the erecting of statues to the emperor.
Certain official enrolment papers have been discovered in Palestine, regularly taken from no later than A.D. 20 to the time of Emperor Constantine, which includes information on each family based on the testimony of the head of household. These are unknown to the historical sources.
Palestine had been subject to many Roman military campaigns and tribute payment, beginning with Pompey in 48 B.C., and it is not unfair to characterize Herod largely as a Roman puppet. Herod, who likewise was required to pay tribute, had been established as king by Marc Anthony and the Roman Senate.
ECKnibbs 11:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, I will now, as I said above, move to the point of your specific comments. I suppose, however, that I should first respond to the text you gave above briefly. I do request that we discuss disputed changes on talk and attempt to come to an agreement, and I don't think that is very unreasonable. As for the structuring, you certainly could separate the restructuring from the other edits. Simply make two edits. In the first, you only move the text around. In the second, you then change the places in the text you wish. This is courteous to other editors like myself because it is easier to compare the changes (otherwise, with all the moving, everything appears red in a comparison, not just the revised text). As for (5), the point of the tag is to give editors the opportunity and time to determine whether something is "a synthesis of published material serving to advance a position" or whether instead it is in accord with policy. You have jumped to a conclusion in regards to some passages. Now for my last point I will perhaps be a little more harsh. There were two posts recently, one where various comments were asked to be sourced, and another where various changes were propose, including the renaming of a title, the restructuring of a section, the rewording of existing lines, and the removal of others. I then found three sources to help with the first request, gave a comment for each sentence proposed to be removed, and imported some of the text I could easily agree with. Then, you implemented the whole of the changes proposed. I think it is rather fair to ask for a bit slower of a process and a bit more discussion, and it is rather unfair for you to say it will not develop because you keep reverting edits – clearly things are developing, and I only reverted once, and only because they were moving too fast for me (or, anyone but you) to participate in the editing. Lastly, I also object to the statement: …in doing so you concentrate all energy on the talk page, where it does no good – this is the purpose of the talk page, and I make no apology for concentrating energy here, though the history of the article hardly shows that I concentrate all my energy here. That is just false; I have worked to make your proposals happen, at least to an extent.
Now for the specifics. (1) You agree that there is a paucity of sources, and your only objetion is that the article spends too much time on the matter. But your edits did not reduce the text; all they did, instead, was to rephrase things so as the paucity is concealed. As such, I do not understand this edit. (2) As for the Egyptian censuses, I believe that the Catholic Encyclopedia article mentions them in regards to the matter at hand. I will have a look when I get a moment. It (and many others) certainly do about enrollment papers (do you dispute this?). I haven't been able to grab a bunch of sources for this from the library yet , hopefully soon. (3) As for the characterization of Herod as a puppet, it is quite standard (as I am sure you well know), and I imagine that Grant gives such a characterization in his biography. Again, when I get a moment, I shall look. I wish this could be tagged until then to help me (or anyone else) remember to look. (4) As for Varus. I did write that comment. Such was the teaching of one of my history profs. Now this is not an acceptable source unless he has published that opinion (and he is well published) or got that opinion from a published source, in which case it is acceptable. I had hope to have some time to look, but I understand the removal of this passage. If I did not have to look up 10 sentences in 2 days I might have determined whether or not this was present in a proper source. Lostcaesar 20:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've added a section for those authors who want to solve the problem by taking Luke at his word and dating Jesus's birth to A.D. 6 (problems with Matthew be damned). Among the three sources I have for this position is an online essay I just found, at infidels.org ( [11] ). I wanted to head off any controversy about this right now: the essay is decent and balanced, and though I suppose written for the polemical purpose of finding contradictions in the Gospels, it is not itself overly polemical, it cites the same standard literature that we do (nothing but scholarly articles in the footnotes), it defends Luke from many of the overly skeptical attacks, and in my opinion it is a pretty decent piece of work and worthy of citation. Certainly, if we can cite the Catholic Encyclopedia, I think we can cite this. I am willing to remove it later if we find better source for this specific variation on the argument (Carrier argues the position as if it were his own, though); but right now, I think citing him allows us to articulate one way out of at least some of the conflicts with Matthew. So let's keep him. ECKnibbs 10:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Section 2.1 is not really about the role of Quirinius; it is about the hypothesis that Luke describes a second, earlier census than that mentioned by Josephus. Accordingly, I propose retitling this section "Earlier census" or something. Then I'd like to bump up "Alternative translation of Luke" to 2.1.1 (some argue that Luke explicitly calls it the first census--a nice short intro to the whole section), leaving "Two governorships of Quirinius" as 2.1.2. Then I'd like to move the disputed 2.3 "Plausibility" bit, in whatever form it ultimately assumes, up under this heading, as section 2.1.3, and perhaps retitle it again ("Plausibility of earlier census," or something similar). All of these pieces assume an earlier census distinct from that recounted in Josephus, and I think this is the real 'solution' on offer here.
Then we should take 'Luke in error' and incorporate it within the introduction of the section, as we resolved above.
Any agreement for this? It will make further expansions and incorporations of other material, from Braunert et al., a bit easier and more straightforward.
ECKnibbs 14:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I will be brief, taking the advice above. I made some structural changes which seem an improvement. I made the plausibility analysis of a census under herod into a subgroup of the dual-governing hypothesis. The alt trans of Luke, and the reinterpretation of his text (conta-Matthew) were elevated to maingroup status. Material about the details of luke, aside from the dual-governing, were moved to its own section. I also added some references and the like. Lastly, I cut the text by Carrier - who is he? Lostcaesar 15:18, 25 January 2007 (UTC) Oh yeah, and I didn't like the rearrangement of the sources section, where Josephus had been put first. If we do that then we skip Herod and go straight past his reign, then go back in time - its confusing. Lostcaesar 15:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
The current reordering of the sources as it now reads assumes that Luke mentions the same census as Josephus and is also not chronological insofar as most would agree that Luke's date for the census he mentions is a decade before Josephus's date. That seems confusing to me. Lostcaesar 12:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I have already tried to eliminate the article's thinly sourced statements about the possibility of co-governorships (or "co-governing"). I am going to take them out again. These are sourced only to a polemical article in the Catholic Encyclopedia, which cites no source at all and discusses these supposed instances of "co-governing" so vaguely as to make the assertions meaningless. The possibility that Quirinius is "co-governor" is not raised in any other serious, academic literature, as far as I can tell.
ECKnibbs 17:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Rbreen 20:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The hedging about an imperial census is unnecessary and risks being incorrect. What is unprecedented is an imperially ordered census in a client kingdom--however we imagine it was conducted. So I am going to take it out again.
ECKnibbs 17:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Two things here: first, we have another quote from a very old (1913) Catholic Encylopedia - do we have any more up to date statement of this argument? Secondly, Sherwin-White is quoted as suggesting that a policy of universal registration was first implemented by Quirinius in Judea - presumably this would only be possible after 6AD when he was in charge of the census Josephus mentions, in which case this point would surely undermine the 'two-census' theory? Can anyone confirm what he is implying here? Rbreen 21:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
The article spends a paragraph discussing Stauffer's strange argument about a delayed census, and I am going to take it out. This material is 1) written by a theologian for apologetic purposes, and 2) also completely unsupported by the scholarly literature on the census, and this is most likely because 3) it conflicts with any reasonable reading Josephus. Josephus not only says that Quirinius finished the census in A.D. 6, but his narrative earlier shows that the census was begun only after the removal of Archelaus, which itself must have taken place in A.D. 6, or "the tenth year" of Archelaus' reign (cf. Antiquities 17.342ff, 18.1-2, and probably other places too). The revolt happened directly afterwards. In other words, according to Josephus, there were no delays, and even if there were, they would simply push the date of taxation later than A.D. 6, by Josephus' own dating scheme. So Stauffer's argument is in open conflict with our main source for the census and it is unreasonable and misleading as well. ECKnibbs 10:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
One thing that has puzzled me about this article is why the option that Luke has simply got his facts wrong is the last one considered. Not only is it the simplest - and therefore, by the principle of parsimony, the most likely to be correct - but is also (to judge by the somewhat tortuous discussion of the alternatives) the least problematic. I believe it is probably the most widely held, especially by classical historians. I have moved it to the top.
Some of the other options need to be clarified as well are they compatible or contradictory. If Quirinius was governing Syria before 6 AD but after Herod, does that not still clash with the Matthew account which is still pre-Herod?
Rbreen 13:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
"In 1938, F.M. Heichelheim proposed an alternate translation of Luke 2:2, suggesting that it might be rendered: This census was the first before the census taken when Quirinius was governor." Shouldn't it be, "This census was before the census taken when Q was gov."? The word that used to mean "first" now is being translated as "before". Lostcaesar 13:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
In Anne Rice's book "Christ the Lord: Out of Egypt" she has Joseph going to Bethlehem for the tax because he owned a small plot of land in the environs, and so had to go for the tax... I presume that she took this from one of her many listed sources, but don't have access to them to cite the correct one. But it is at least a reasonable theory. Maybe someone has a source that could add this to the "Details" section (citing a work of historical fiction doesn't quite seem right...) 62.101.102.226 09:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
In this edit, the summary of Josephus' account was changed to remove references to Joazar and Zadok on the grounds that their inclusion "takes away from the topic and might be confusing". I can only guess that "the topic" means the issue of Luke's accuracy with which most of the article is concerned. While this article was created at " The Census of Quirinius and the Gospels", it is now titled " Census of Quirinius", and I can't see a basis for excluding material relevant to Quirinius' census(es) which doesn't bear on Luke. Issues relating to the Lukan account are the topic of most relevant scholarly discussion, and so it's reasonable that they occupy most of the article, but the details of Josephus' account are of interest to scholars of Roman and Jewish history. EALacey 18:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
It's my impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that the vast majority of scholars who are not doctrinally committed to biblical inerrancy consider the "Luke in error" theory to be correct. Yet that section takes up less than 10% of this article. This seems like a violation of WP:WEIGHT. I guess the way to rectify this would be to have more material in this section, yet it already covers most of their arguments. Maybe put some of the rebuttals to the other theories in this section? Any comments? Grover cleveland 14:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
I think there is a way forward for everyone involved here. Originally, there was an article called "Bible Census" or something like that, with almost no information. I created an article, "The Census of Quirinius and the Gospels", with the aim of providing a useful discussion of the problems between the relations amongst Luke, Matthew, and Josephus. The name was eventually shortened to "Census of Quirinius".
The difficulty is that there are two issues here; that is, two reasons to care about this topic. One is the point I just mentioned, the relations amongst the sources and, especially, the impact on biblical inerrancy. The other is a more purely historical interest in just the census of AD 6 by Quirinius, its impact on the history of Zealotry, and its place in the career of a remarkable man. Now between these two issues I think we can fairly say that, for an audience of educated English-speaking readers, the one most people are interested in is the first.
Far more people will care about the impact on biblical inerrancy (including those who want to disprove it), than about an otherwise dry and rather obscure enrollment that happened a long time ago in a backwater province of the empire. And I think the contributions here have shown that, since everyone involved has only sought to discuss the Biblical issue (and honestly, ask yourself why you are interested, and I think you'll find it true). But the shifting of the title has created a tension between the two issues which, though related (and religious questions are always historical in nature when revelation is involved), can be separated to the mutual benefit of all.
But I think the solution here is to make this article about the undisputed census of AD 6 and its place in the history of zealotry and to move the detailed information about Luke (etc) to another article, perhaps "Luke 2" or perhaps its own, with links there from "Luke 2", the "Nativity", etc. As far as I know historians in general do not take up the question of an earlier census of Quirinius, and so that could be left aside. The issue of an alternate translation argues in such a way as to free Quirinius from any necessary earlier involvement in Syria; in other words, it makes a pro-Luke case without changing the otherwise known facts or expanding of Quirinius's career. The same could be said for "Jesus born AD6". Thus, these two matters need not be mentioned.
Now let me say that there is only one way this will work, and that is if we do not add snide or petty comments about St. Luke in this article — and you know what I'm talking about. It seems like every article, from the Nativity, to Luke 2, to the main article on Quirinius, has some comment the purpose of which is to make the reader think that Luke got things wrong. We don't need to get into the validity of this statement. We only need to observe, and we can all agree to this, that it is just one PoV and on this question there are others which are noteworthy and, frankly, not advanced by fools (as the snide comments would imply).
So I think this is the way forward. It will allow us to preserve all the information we have gathered (and we should be careful to preserve it when moving text). And it will be a good compromise. But please, when working on articles that affect the issue of inerrancy, be respectful of the position that Luke isn't wrong and don't word things in a way so as to gab the reader with the contrary point of view. And you know what I mean: they end up saying by implication "real scholars who are not biased know Luke is wrong and thus the Bible is in error." I know you probably belive that statement is true with all your heart, but please realise that its a pov statement contested by people who are allowed a place in the world of scholarship, and whose argument ought to be heard if for no other reason than because its the argument of nearly 2 billion people.
If we manage to do this, I might actually be able to retire from editing for good.
86.141.9.225 14:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I cannot agree that that would be an adequate solution. The danger is that this is simply content forking, avoiding the essential issue.
I can see no point in addressing the points you make here; if you can seriously characterise the simple historical argument (which is, as I have said and believe, the majority one) that Luke has got his facts wrong as "real scholars who are not biased know Luke is wrong and thus the Bible is in error", there is nothing more I can say. It is unfair, unreasonable and emotive.
We have here an article which is much too long, weighed down with the debris of a prolonged citation war, often confusing and unreadable, something more like a private obsession than an encylopedic article. I and others have tried to produce something readable and balanced, which reflects both sides without giving undue weight to a minority position that appears driven by a need to make the facts fit the interpretation, and not the other way round. I could add more citations but the point where that is useful has clearly passed.
What this article desperately needs is the opinion of people who are not involved. I had hoped others might comment, but I suspect many are put off by the sheer level of detail. We clearly need some sort of dispute resolution process - I suggest an approach to the Mediation Cabal. Will you accept mediation? Rbreen 22:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
This article is titled "Census of Quirinius" but the majority of the content focuses on the sources, not the subject of the article. I see no problem making a separate article about the veracity of the sources, as long as what the sources actually say about the census remain in this article. They're two different topics, not a POV fork.
In other words, I recommend scrapping the "Problems and solutions" section and everything that follows. Put that material elsewhere if you want. In my opinion a debate about the arcane details in each historical source has no place in this article about the census. - Amatulic 16:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted everyone who watches this page to know about Crucifixion eclipse. It is another article about a possibly historical event described in the gospels, like the Census. Editors have raised concerns about the tone, and whether this event actually occurred as described in the gospels. I feel like we've done a decent job tangling with similar issues here, and invite anyones interested to take a look. Thanks.- Andrew c 20:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Luke is cited at times of being in error because his references seem to be at variance with Josephus. However, Luke's writings were widely read at a time and in a location in which many living people could dispute the information based on personal knowledge. Leading Jews in the community would have good reason to make much of any inaccuracy in Luke’s recitation of history, and Jews are notorious for their nitpicking in that area. Are there any writings which reflect disputes of that nature written during that period of time? Anything written after the death of eye witnesses is second hand and not useful. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mikimeadows ( talk • contribs) 15:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC).
Today, these sentences are removed: "But it is important that the Bible never calls Quirinius "the governor" (New King James Version). It says that Quirinius was "governing" in Syria. And we know that he was indeed governing in some capacity in this region at this time, perhaps in 8 B.C. or 7 B.C." In combination with the next sentence it could be most important: "According to Austrian Professor Konradin Ferrari d'Occhieppo — in many books between 1965 and 2003 —, the star of Bethlehem was not only a triple conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC. The astronomer had interpreted the words "stood over" as a term that refer the retrogradation and stationing of the royal star Jupiter or Saturn in the sign of Pisces (=land in the west) in 12 November 7 BC since 854 (!) years. In the astronomer’s opinion this rare event was certainly important for everyone." Also it is said Quirinius had the power of three legions in Syria in 8/7 B.C. --- Dietmar 19:52, 18 June 2007
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