![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
The section referred to is basically a (principally single-author) personal socio-political rant, and relies upon a non-notable pundit as its principal source. I think the entire thing should be excised unless reliabilty can be better established. See also " POV Unionist Dogma" above for related concerns. This is an encyclopedia not an encyclical; WP editors need to leave their personal dogmatic bugbears in their closets. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 06:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Far from being single author this section cites Simon James, Miranda Green, Barry Cunliffe and Michael Morse ... which is four more than most sections in WP. It seems IMHO to be a reasonably well written summary of one academic school of thought, other sections contain other not necessarily identical thoughts, but that's what WP is all about. Provided the whole article has a NPOV, it is surely good that some sections show differing referenced POV to give a complete picture - that's what this section does. . Naturally I agree it would be better if all editors left "their personal dogmatic bugbears in their closets". I am going to remove the tags which I feel are unjustified. Abtract 09:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Did you know that neither the Romans nor Brythons ever refered to a people called 'Celt'..?--—The preceding unsigned comment was added by WPCobbett ( talk • contribs) .
I am interested only in what is known. Not what people try and overlay. What is known is that there were a mixture of tribes. I think that parts of Europe - especially around the Alps area where you have many dialects and languages in a comparatively small area is like what Europe was like. Post Roman Briton would have been the same. Why I am afraid it was so vulnerable to the types of genocide that Gildas talks of. It may irritate alot of us to think this happened, but we must confront it or lose any credibility, as I say because of what is known through writing. I believe that with short life spans and relatively slow mobility what we are talking about is a type of writing / art / language that even the Norse used to a degree. It was Europe of that time. When peoples of the East started to move in things changed. These people knew war on a scale and style most would not have encountered unless you had served on the Roman frontier. Even their slashing / hacking style hand weapons and small hand shields gives this away. WPCobbett 11.28 01 Feb 07
According to the book A History of Europe by Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick, Roman effects on Celtic culture included the decline of Druids, appearence of images in worship (specifically those made of stone, as there is evidence that wooden images may have been used pre-Romanization), and assimilation between Roman and Celtic religions. For example hybrid gods such as Mars Loucetius begin to appear. Another example is the appearence of Jupiter columns. Which depict a god that is similar to the Germanic sky God Oden, but is given the name Jupiter.
I added something which had this information in the article, but it was deleted and I was wander if it was deleted because the book is inacurate, or for some other reason. If this information is correct then I would like for it to be added to the article. -- 75.18.12.164 05:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Noticing the American spelling of "Romanization", I wonder if this article shouldn't use British spelling since this article is about a European group of people. No big deal either way but it makes sense to me. Abtract 10:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Another spelling issue: According to Greek mythology, Celtus was the son of Heracles and Keltine, the daughter of Bretannus.[1] Celtus became the primogenitor of Celts.[2] If this is according to Greek mythology, Heracles is Herakles (Heracles is a horrible transliteration) and Celtus is surely Keltus? Greek is delightfully unambiguous in its use of K and S for the two sounds commonly represented by C in English. 82.46.44.139 10:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
During and after the fall of the Roman Empire many parts of France threw out their Roman administrators and reverted to a Celtic sense of self.
Is there any source for this rather amusing statement, or is it just New Wave wishful thinking? FilipeS 21:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
None of that sounds like very convincing evidence of a revival of some "Celtic sense of self", I'm afraid. FilipeS 17:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
That's not even worth replying to. Clearly, you're short on facts. That's why you're resorting to insult. The Asturians, the Galicians, and other peoples who lived under the Roman Empire, with the exception of the Brythons, never went back to using Celtic languages after the Empire fell. Any return to some "Celtic sense of self" after that is just a romantic fantasy. Prove me wrong if you can... FilipeS 19:13, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
You do realise that Vercingetorix lived before the Roman conquest of Gaul... FilipeS 19:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
You do realize that comment about vercingaterix was aimed at an individual who interjected with the remark "celtic culture was never anything more than a tribal identity in pre-Roman times." rather then anything to do about the fall of rome. reread this discussion from the beginning to get the context you've missed. With much love - Bloody Sacha 5/13/2007.
Vercingetorix did not live "during and after the fall of the Roman Empire". Not by a long shot. FilipeS 14:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
'Gabhala, reread this discussion from the beginning to get the context you've missed.
FilipeS
21:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with that. Sorry about the confusion, and the late retraction, Gabhala. I had misinterpreted you. FilipeS 22:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Zosimus “advocate” of Byzantines treasury, the most contemporary historian in this period of time who was unaffiliated with any native churches records clearly in his Historia Nova that in the late 300s-410, the roman army or at least the roman army pertaining to Britain/northern Gaul rebelled twice and attempted to install an emperor and that during this time no new roman administrator of the army was appointed. He also states that in 408-409 bc the native Britons both repulsed a Saxon incursion AND threw out a roman trying to reestablish control in Britain and ALSO that after Britons actions Gaul and Amorica fallowed suit. While this may not be a "Celtic" rebellion in the style of Vercingatorix this is clearly the native ousting of Roman officials in Celtic territory that I alluded to in my first statement many months ago. As far as I’m concerned this case is closed and my statement is reasonable yet unprovable, more so then the conventional ideas (mythologies) reported by fanatical monks centuries later, (Gildas, Bede and a handful of other monks who’s occupation was to “copy existing work" and fill the gaps with improvisation.) Despite the unnecessary hostility in my earlier posts I do respect the amount of time people have spent into arguing against this point and if a historian of greater credentials/reliability then Zosimus has said something contradictory to the what he (Zosimus) recorded Id like to hear it. With much love - Bloody Sacha 5/13/2007.
So its your contention that the native Britons decided that no culture was better then Roman or Saxon culture, repulsed both parties and decided that all their friends and neighbors where just "we and "us" a non labeled collective of people who despite speaking the same Gallo-Latin suffered from acute cases of stand alone complex and then disappeared into the mists of time? I don’t think so. Really I keep uttering the magic words of failed rebellions in the Middle East that took place centuries earlier but it just doesn’t lend your theory any hard credence. Strange too that no ones recorded the obvious similarities between the forced departure of Briton and Gaul from the Roman Empire initiated by locals with the actions of a despotic queen in Syria or the roman conquest of Jerusalem. Perhaps you should consider penning such an article yourself! If you can find a contemporary of Zosimus who had such beliefs id very much like to learn about him - Bloody Sacha 5/13/2007.
Gabhala also cited a significant source stating clearly that the average Romano-Briton never actually lost their native Celtic language and thus by extension culture, this in turn supports my statement that Celtic culture thus buoyed back to the surface. (obvious when combined with how quickly the natives of Briton/Amorica/Gaul ejected Roman administrators and in Britons case a saxon incursion all of which recorded by Zosimus) Naturally you told him to "go away" rather then actually address his (Cunliffe’s) research cited in "The Roman Footprint." (pp. 156-158) You’ve essentially done the same to me. It’s become more then apparent that you have no intention of arguing your point revising your point or even making a point for that matter. So far the closest thing you’ve gotten to an actual statement against the topic sentence is in saying that it is “new wave,” “amusing” a “romantic fantasy” or compared it to impossibly unrelated events that occurred in a completely different time and place.
”1: The Victor When your opponent is no longer capable of making any progress in the argument without breaking the rules of engagement, ai: “a: Appealing to Ignorance” “b: Popularity Fallacies” “c: Fallacy of Self-proclaimed Expertise” “d: False Facts (aka Lies)” it is time to stand victoriously, and tell them that they have lost the debate. Don’t rub their faces in it like a bully on a playground, but just nudge them off to consider the logical beating that they have just experienced. They may want to try and continue the argument, like the broken, beaten, and sickly chess club member, waving his fist at the disinterested linebacker and yelling “Is that all you’ve got???” Pay them no mind.”
You have lost the debate. Goodbye. –Bloody Sacha 5/15/2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.187.156.140 ( talk) 22:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC).
Argument rages in the academic world as to whether the population of Celts in England were largely displaced or merely absorbed by invading Germanic tribes ( Anglo-Saxons) in the 4th - 6th centuries. Many historians now argue that the Germanic migration was smaller than previously believed or may have consisted merely of a social elite, with the genocide more cultural rather than physical due to such relatively few numbers of Anglo-Saxons mixing with the larger native population. A recent DNA study on Y-chromosome inheritance has suggested that the population of England maintains a predominantly ancient British element. The general indigenous population of Yorkshire, East Anglia and the Orkney and Shetland Islands are those populations with the very least traces of ancient British paternal continuation. [1] Ironically, it may be Viking genetic influence and not Anglo-Saxon which has had a more profound impact on paternal British bloodlines, or it could very well have been a combination of both groups.
Shouldn't this paragraph be rewritten with Brython instead of British? FilipeS 21:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
That was quick! :-) FilipeS 22:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Belgae DNA Modal & Nordic-Celtic Project
I have come up we this - Belgae DNA Modal through my Nordic-Celtic DNA project (1008 members).
http://www.ysearch.org/lastname_view.asp?uid=&letter=&lastname=Belgae&viewuid=AX6GA&p=0
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Nordic-Celtic
Investigating the contribution that archaeology has made to accounts of human evolution
Accounts of human evolution usually revolve around well-publicised discoveries of the bony remains of our ancestors. These do allow us to piece together our family tree and to paint - at least in broad outline - a picture of the ancestors who appear on that tree. But it is the archaeological record that preserves actual traces of our ancestors' activities and intuition suggests that these ought to be fundamental to our accounts of human evolution. However, this is far from being the case and this project is designed to explore why this is so.
Masters Thesis
I would like to enroll into the Masters Thesis Research Degree
This is a link to my Research:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Nordic-Celtic
I could also research to what degree of social assimilation occurred between native European groups of people throughout the history of Australia - through dna?
The focus of the project is to gather a representation of evidence and interest in Native Scandinavians and Native Celtic-Iberians found in ‘all’ parts of Australia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.27.247.252 ( talk) 13:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC).
For all the will in the world I am trying to understand why you would want to do such a project? What has it got to do with Celtic studies that pre date Roman times? Studies which are difficult enough in the clouds of history?
This constant repetition of the claim that the Celts practiced ritual pederasty is disingenous. One or two claims by Greeks are a long way from being proof. Many Greek and Roman observers have been proven wrong about many assertions made about the Celts, in several cases it's quite apparent that they were attempting to slander them. There is no proof of ritual pederasty, the persistant inclusion here seems to be part of an agenda, and very POV.
Drifter bob 21:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Garick where is the proof of this? Try and start discussions here that have something behind them.... WPCobbett 17:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
One quote from one outsider from a culture hostile to the celts (Greek) does not qualify as proof of the alleged "historical" nature of Celtic pederasty. In all the volumes of celtic mythology which survive, there are no references to this practice, unlike the reams of evidence from Greece, Rome, or among the Samurai of Japan for example. You are entitled to your opinions, beliefs, and political agendas, but please don't put your beliefs into an historical article as if they were facts. It is a fact that Athenaeus made the comment that he made, it is not by any means a fact that this means his comment was accurate or that this was the reality among the Celts. Until you have proof quit putting this on the page.
Drifter bob 01:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Hopefully the new reorganization of this topic under it's own header and the addition of a balancing point of view will not be objected to. It's fine to include the Atheneaus quote but what is stated after it is no more than a point of view, one which should be balanced. And it has very little to do with Celtic family life.
Drifter bob 15:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Quote Nennius a Monk who wrote about the invasion of Celtic Britain by the Saxons:
39. In the meantime, Vortigern (the Celtic High Lord of the Britons,) as if desirous of adding to the evils he had already occasioned, married his own daughter, by whom he had a son. When this was made known to St. Germanus, he came, with all the British clergy, to reprove him: and whilst a numerous assembly of the ecclesiastics and laity were in consultation, the weak king ordered his daughter to appear before them, and in the presence of all to present her son to St. Germanus, and declare that he was the father of the child. The immodest1 woman obeyed; and St. Germanus, taking the child, said, "I will be a father to you, my son; nor will I dismiss you till a razor, scissors, and comb, are given to me, and it is allowed you to give them to your carnal father." The child obeyed St. Germanus, and going to his father Vortigern, said to him, "Thou art my father; shave and cut the hair of my head." The king blushed, and was silent; and, without replying to the child, arose in great anger, and fled from the presence of St. Germanus, execrated and condemned by the whole synod.
Was it that thge Celts were into this type of sexual practice in a big way? In the US there has been some debate that this was a problem that other peoples such as the Saxons and indeed the Romans did not like. Could this have been passed donw genetically? Please discuss.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
The section referred to is basically a (principally single-author) personal socio-political rant, and relies upon a non-notable pundit as its principal source. I think the entire thing should be excised unless reliabilty can be better established. See also " POV Unionist Dogma" above for related concerns. This is an encyclopedia not an encyclical; WP editors need to leave their personal dogmatic bugbears in their closets. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 06:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Far from being single author this section cites Simon James, Miranda Green, Barry Cunliffe and Michael Morse ... which is four more than most sections in WP. It seems IMHO to be a reasonably well written summary of one academic school of thought, other sections contain other not necessarily identical thoughts, but that's what WP is all about. Provided the whole article has a NPOV, it is surely good that some sections show differing referenced POV to give a complete picture - that's what this section does. . Naturally I agree it would be better if all editors left "their personal dogmatic bugbears in their closets". I am going to remove the tags which I feel are unjustified. Abtract 09:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Did you know that neither the Romans nor Brythons ever refered to a people called 'Celt'..?--—The preceding unsigned comment was added by WPCobbett ( talk • contribs) .
I am interested only in what is known. Not what people try and overlay. What is known is that there were a mixture of tribes. I think that parts of Europe - especially around the Alps area where you have many dialects and languages in a comparatively small area is like what Europe was like. Post Roman Briton would have been the same. Why I am afraid it was so vulnerable to the types of genocide that Gildas talks of. It may irritate alot of us to think this happened, but we must confront it or lose any credibility, as I say because of what is known through writing. I believe that with short life spans and relatively slow mobility what we are talking about is a type of writing / art / language that even the Norse used to a degree. It was Europe of that time. When peoples of the East started to move in things changed. These people knew war on a scale and style most would not have encountered unless you had served on the Roman frontier. Even their slashing / hacking style hand weapons and small hand shields gives this away. WPCobbett 11.28 01 Feb 07
According to the book A History of Europe by Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick, Roman effects on Celtic culture included the decline of Druids, appearence of images in worship (specifically those made of stone, as there is evidence that wooden images may have been used pre-Romanization), and assimilation between Roman and Celtic religions. For example hybrid gods such as Mars Loucetius begin to appear. Another example is the appearence of Jupiter columns. Which depict a god that is similar to the Germanic sky God Oden, but is given the name Jupiter.
I added something which had this information in the article, but it was deleted and I was wander if it was deleted because the book is inacurate, or for some other reason. If this information is correct then I would like for it to be added to the article. -- 75.18.12.164 05:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Noticing the American spelling of "Romanization", I wonder if this article shouldn't use British spelling since this article is about a European group of people. No big deal either way but it makes sense to me. Abtract 10:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Another spelling issue: According to Greek mythology, Celtus was the son of Heracles and Keltine, the daughter of Bretannus.[1] Celtus became the primogenitor of Celts.[2] If this is according to Greek mythology, Heracles is Herakles (Heracles is a horrible transliteration) and Celtus is surely Keltus? Greek is delightfully unambiguous in its use of K and S for the two sounds commonly represented by C in English. 82.46.44.139 10:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
During and after the fall of the Roman Empire many parts of France threw out their Roman administrators and reverted to a Celtic sense of self.
Is there any source for this rather amusing statement, or is it just New Wave wishful thinking? FilipeS 21:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
None of that sounds like very convincing evidence of a revival of some "Celtic sense of self", I'm afraid. FilipeS 17:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
That's not even worth replying to. Clearly, you're short on facts. That's why you're resorting to insult. The Asturians, the Galicians, and other peoples who lived under the Roman Empire, with the exception of the Brythons, never went back to using Celtic languages after the Empire fell. Any return to some "Celtic sense of self" after that is just a romantic fantasy. Prove me wrong if you can... FilipeS 19:13, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
You do realise that Vercingetorix lived before the Roman conquest of Gaul... FilipeS 19:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
You do realize that comment about vercingaterix was aimed at an individual who interjected with the remark "celtic culture was never anything more than a tribal identity in pre-Roman times." rather then anything to do about the fall of rome. reread this discussion from the beginning to get the context you've missed. With much love - Bloody Sacha 5/13/2007.
Vercingetorix did not live "during and after the fall of the Roman Empire". Not by a long shot. FilipeS 14:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
'Gabhala, reread this discussion from the beginning to get the context you've missed.
FilipeS
21:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with that. Sorry about the confusion, and the late retraction, Gabhala. I had misinterpreted you. FilipeS 22:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Zosimus “advocate” of Byzantines treasury, the most contemporary historian in this period of time who was unaffiliated with any native churches records clearly in his Historia Nova that in the late 300s-410, the roman army or at least the roman army pertaining to Britain/northern Gaul rebelled twice and attempted to install an emperor and that during this time no new roman administrator of the army was appointed. He also states that in 408-409 bc the native Britons both repulsed a Saxon incursion AND threw out a roman trying to reestablish control in Britain and ALSO that after Britons actions Gaul and Amorica fallowed suit. While this may not be a "Celtic" rebellion in the style of Vercingatorix this is clearly the native ousting of Roman officials in Celtic territory that I alluded to in my first statement many months ago. As far as I’m concerned this case is closed and my statement is reasonable yet unprovable, more so then the conventional ideas (mythologies) reported by fanatical monks centuries later, (Gildas, Bede and a handful of other monks who’s occupation was to “copy existing work" and fill the gaps with improvisation.) Despite the unnecessary hostility in my earlier posts I do respect the amount of time people have spent into arguing against this point and if a historian of greater credentials/reliability then Zosimus has said something contradictory to the what he (Zosimus) recorded Id like to hear it. With much love - Bloody Sacha 5/13/2007.
So its your contention that the native Britons decided that no culture was better then Roman or Saxon culture, repulsed both parties and decided that all their friends and neighbors where just "we and "us" a non labeled collective of people who despite speaking the same Gallo-Latin suffered from acute cases of stand alone complex and then disappeared into the mists of time? I don’t think so. Really I keep uttering the magic words of failed rebellions in the Middle East that took place centuries earlier but it just doesn’t lend your theory any hard credence. Strange too that no ones recorded the obvious similarities between the forced departure of Briton and Gaul from the Roman Empire initiated by locals with the actions of a despotic queen in Syria or the roman conquest of Jerusalem. Perhaps you should consider penning such an article yourself! If you can find a contemporary of Zosimus who had such beliefs id very much like to learn about him - Bloody Sacha 5/13/2007.
Gabhala also cited a significant source stating clearly that the average Romano-Briton never actually lost their native Celtic language and thus by extension culture, this in turn supports my statement that Celtic culture thus buoyed back to the surface. (obvious when combined with how quickly the natives of Briton/Amorica/Gaul ejected Roman administrators and in Britons case a saxon incursion all of which recorded by Zosimus) Naturally you told him to "go away" rather then actually address his (Cunliffe’s) research cited in "The Roman Footprint." (pp. 156-158) You’ve essentially done the same to me. It’s become more then apparent that you have no intention of arguing your point revising your point or even making a point for that matter. So far the closest thing you’ve gotten to an actual statement against the topic sentence is in saying that it is “new wave,” “amusing” a “romantic fantasy” or compared it to impossibly unrelated events that occurred in a completely different time and place.
”1: The Victor When your opponent is no longer capable of making any progress in the argument without breaking the rules of engagement, ai: “a: Appealing to Ignorance” “b: Popularity Fallacies” “c: Fallacy of Self-proclaimed Expertise” “d: False Facts (aka Lies)” it is time to stand victoriously, and tell them that they have lost the debate. Don’t rub their faces in it like a bully on a playground, but just nudge them off to consider the logical beating that they have just experienced. They may want to try and continue the argument, like the broken, beaten, and sickly chess club member, waving his fist at the disinterested linebacker and yelling “Is that all you’ve got???” Pay them no mind.”
You have lost the debate. Goodbye. –Bloody Sacha 5/15/2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.187.156.140 ( talk) 22:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC).
Argument rages in the academic world as to whether the population of Celts in England were largely displaced or merely absorbed by invading Germanic tribes ( Anglo-Saxons) in the 4th - 6th centuries. Many historians now argue that the Germanic migration was smaller than previously believed or may have consisted merely of a social elite, with the genocide more cultural rather than physical due to such relatively few numbers of Anglo-Saxons mixing with the larger native population. A recent DNA study on Y-chromosome inheritance has suggested that the population of England maintains a predominantly ancient British element. The general indigenous population of Yorkshire, East Anglia and the Orkney and Shetland Islands are those populations with the very least traces of ancient British paternal continuation. [1] Ironically, it may be Viking genetic influence and not Anglo-Saxon which has had a more profound impact on paternal British bloodlines, or it could very well have been a combination of both groups.
Shouldn't this paragraph be rewritten with Brython instead of British? FilipeS 21:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
That was quick! :-) FilipeS 22:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Belgae DNA Modal & Nordic-Celtic Project
I have come up we this - Belgae DNA Modal through my Nordic-Celtic DNA project (1008 members).
http://www.ysearch.org/lastname_view.asp?uid=&letter=&lastname=Belgae&viewuid=AX6GA&p=0
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Nordic-Celtic
Investigating the contribution that archaeology has made to accounts of human evolution
Accounts of human evolution usually revolve around well-publicised discoveries of the bony remains of our ancestors. These do allow us to piece together our family tree and to paint - at least in broad outline - a picture of the ancestors who appear on that tree. But it is the archaeological record that preserves actual traces of our ancestors' activities and intuition suggests that these ought to be fundamental to our accounts of human evolution. However, this is far from being the case and this project is designed to explore why this is so.
Masters Thesis
I would like to enroll into the Masters Thesis Research Degree
This is a link to my Research:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Nordic-Celtic
I could also research to what degree of social assimilation occurred between native European groups of people throughout the history of Australia - through dna?
The focus of the project is to gather a representation of evidence and interest in Native Scandinavians and Native Celtic-Iberians found in ‘all’ parts of Australia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.27.247.252 ( talk) 13:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC).
For all the will in the world I am trying to understand why you would want to do such a project? What has it got to do with Celtic studies that pre date Roman times? Studies which are difficult enough in the clouds of history?
This constant repetition of the claim that the Celts practiced ritual pederasty is disingenous. One or two claims by Greeks are a long way from being proof. Many Greek and Roman observers have been proven wrong about many assertions made about the Celts, in several cases it's quite apparent that they were attempting to slander them. There is no proof of ritual pederasty, the persistant inclusion here seems to be part of an agenda, and very POV.
Drifter bob 21:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Garick where is the proof of this? Try and start discussions here that have something behind them.... WPCobbett 17:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
One quote from one outsider from a culture hostile to the celts (Greek) does not qualify as proof of the alleged "historical" nature of Celtic pederasty. In all the volumes of celtic mythology which survive, there are no references to this practice, unlike the reams of evidence from Greece, Rome, or among the Samurai of Japan for example. You are entitled to your opinions, beliefs, and political agendas, but please don't put your beliefs into an historical article as if they were facts. It is a fact that Athenaeus made the comment that he made, it is not by any means a fact that this means his comment was accurate or that this was the reality among the Celts. Until you have proof quit putting this on the page.
Drifter bob 01:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Hopefully the new reorganization of this topic under it's own header and the addition of a balancing point of view will not be objected to. It's fine to include the Atheneaus quote but what is stated after it is no more than a point of view, one which should be balanced. And it has very little to do with Celtic family life.
Drifter bob 15:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Quote Nennius a Monk who wrote about the invasion of Celtic Britain by the Saxons:
39. In the meantime, Vortigern (the Celtic High Lord of the Britons,) as if desirous of adding to the evils he had already occasioned, married his own daughter, by whom he had a son. When this was made known to St. Germanus, he came, with all the British clergy, to reprove him: and whilst a numerous assembly of the ecclesiastics and laity were in consultation, the weak king ordered his daughter to appear before them, and in the presence of all to present her son to St. Germanus, and declare that he was the father of the child. The immodest1 woman obeyed; and St. Germanus, taking the child, said, "I will be a father to you, my son; nor will I dismiss you till a razor, scissors, and comb, are given to me, and it is allowed you to give them to your carnal father." The child obeyed St. Germanus, and going to his father Vortigern, said to him, "Thou art my father; shave and cut the hair of my head." The king blushed, and was silent; and, without replying to the child, arose in great anger, and fled from the presence of St. Germanus, execrated and condemned by the whole synod.
Was it that thge Celts were into this type of sexual practice in a big way? In the US there has been some debate that this was a problem that other peoples such as the Saxons and indeed the Romans did not like. Could this have been passed donw genetically? Please discuss.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |