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Be kind. This is my first Wikipedia entry and I'm still learning the conventions. I've read the tutorial and everything but this entry is lacking "wikifying" and perhaps more extensive external sources or even more internal sources and connections. I'll try to work on it some more later but any tips or suggestions for improving the language or to make it more "Wiki" consistant would be extremely welcome. Pigman 06:43, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
What do you think would be the best way to discuss the alternate terms for Celtic Reconstructionism or branches/variations of CR, such as Celtic Restorationism, Neo-Celtism, Senistrognata, Seandagnatha, Ildiachas/Iol-Diadhachas, Gaelic Traditionalism, and so on. Whateley23 19:30, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Added another couple of brief paragraphs on the history of CR, and the importance of balancing the scholarly and the mystical. Pigman and I worked together on clarifying some bits of his initial entry.
Added a couple more names of sub-trads. Removed GT from the CR sub-trads as, though the GT groups we're aware of initially considered themselves CR, they don't any more.
Today's initial changes are under 63.22.0.227, as I hadn't created an account yet. Kathryn NicDhàna 21:12, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
yeah, i understand that the GTs don't consider themselves CR, but they make use of the same general methodologies (and some still associate closely with predominately CR organizations). since CR can be considered a methodology rather than a religion in itself (though it can also be considered the latter - the term has become somewhat ambiguous), i felt that it was appropriate to include it. Whateley23 22:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Many people do consider CR a religion itself or, perhaps more accurately, an umbrella term covering a number of religions and spiritual traditions. Perhaps we will need to do more work to clarify when we are using "CR" to mean an approach, and when we are using "CR" to mean a religion. As an approach, yes, the polytheistic, split off from CR, GTs use the same methods; but as a community - very different feel and goals. And "Celtic Traditionalist" is another thing as well. Some GTs are closer to CT than CR. Other GTs (the ones with an older claim to the term) are actually Catholics. Kathryn NicDhàna 04:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
The article would benefit from a discussion of how Celtic Reconstruction differs from Neo-druidism, if in fact it does differ from it. Also "human sacrifice, slavery, and other strongly patriarchal elements" is far from NPOV, so I'm removing the "other". -- Angr/ tɔk tə mi 18:42, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
i've added a section discussing the differences between neo-druids and crs, though i am not entirely happy with it. this may be due to my dissatisfaction with attempts (including my own) to define by differentiating in the past. i did try to emphasize that there is quite a bit of similarity, but that there are differing objectives. Whateley23 22:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
since there has been no discussion beyond the two comments, i'd like to put the matter up for a vote. feel free to include a short sentence, if you like:
Include Gaelic Traditionalism
Do Not Include
If you insist on mentioning GT in this, please only do so as an historical footnote. We are adamantly opposed to simply listing GT as a "sub-trad" of CR. Pigman and Kathryn NicDhàna
So, it would be reasonable to mention the derivation of GT commuity in the historical development of CR, indicate that they have since diverged, and give GT its own page if it does not already have one. -- Nantonos 03:38, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
02:00, 24 January 2006(UTC)
Hi, this is Iain Mac an tSaoir. All of this was brought to my attention. Maybe I can clarify a little. Gaelic Traditionalism came up independently from CR. In the late 1890's an English woman wrote disparagingly about Irish people not giving up their indigenous ways, and these she termed "Gaelic traditionalists". The term sat fallow from about 1896 until mid-1994. In July 1994, based upon personal experiences with, and encouragement from, Native American Traditionalists, I coined the terms, "Gaelic Traditionalism" (a way of life expressed by living the Gaelic cultural traditions as the culture alone defines that), and "Gaelic Traditionalists" (those who hold steadfast to the cultural traditions as the Gaelic cultures alone define them). I also founded the
Clannada na Gadelica to attempt at standing up for the historical Celtic and Gaelic traditions as the cultures alone define those, and, bringing the Gaelic Traditions to Gaelic Diasporan peoples.
I was not raised in a Gaeltacht, nor did I have the benefit of a family who had retained the cultural traditions. It was a long hard road to find them, and it was as hard to change from being a typical sassanach into a cultural Gael. In its infancy the CnG did have errant materials. However, the dedication was always to the cultural tradition as the culture alone defines that tradition. Hence, as more was learned those errors were corrected. It took a couple of years but it finely got square. I wish that so many people did not have to witness my growing up into a Gael, but they did. Some few still hold against me things from before I became culturalized. I have apologized for those things and tried to make restitution where such was needed. More yet, most of those with a grudge, hold against me my refusal to let the Clannada na Gadelica be anything other than a place for Gaelic Traditionalism. Probably not so much what I my goal was as how I went about it. But like I said, eventually things got into square.
To be concise, Gaelic Traditionalism is about the Gaelic cultural traditions as the Gaelic cultures define them. There are some who have other ways of addresseing the implementation in daily living, particularly to how to form and maintain communities. Yes, early on there were some CR people involved in the Clannada. But they didn't stick around. It was a difficult time then. As pertains to your entry, no GT is not a subset of CR, because while it came public around the same time, it did so independently, and with a focus on bringing the cultural traditions, as the cultures defines them, to people who want to live them.
I hope this helps. Iain —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
Iain_Mac_an_tSaoir (
talk •
contribs) .
Pigman and I have been discussing this. He should have titled this Wikipedia article, like the linked CR Essay, "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism (CR)". The disagreements we are starting to have in this entry seem to me to stem from some of the participants in this process seeing CR as primarily a spiritual tradition, and others as simply a methodology - a type of Celtic Studies with some sort of action coming out of that study. The former is a much more focused, and smaller entity, which a group of us have been working to define for the past fifteen to twenty years. The latter is something much huger than the spiritual movement we are describing in the early versions of this entry, and which seems to encompass anyone doing any sort of reconstruction work, whether or not they share any of the same religious/spiritual values. I don't think these two visions are harmonious enough to coexist indefinitely, and maybe we should split the categories in two in some way. If not, we must tackle these somewhat conflicting (and somewhat overlapping) views soon or I suspect this will be rather confusing for people. Kathryn NicDhàna 05:33, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm seriously thinking of changing the heading of the entry. What I envisioned this article to represent is much closer to the specificity of "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism" rather than the issues of a broader and more general use of the term "Celtic Reconstruction". I think it would be an excellent idea to split these apart. This would alleviate the confusion obviously inherent between people attempting to merge these differing strains. -- Pigman 05:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
i think that it would be best to try to explain that there are two primary concepts which are referred to by the name "Celtic Reconstructionism". i'd like to think that i've already made some effort to disambiguate the two usages a bit in the article as it stands, but i don't think i've been slighting either usage, either. Whateley23 06:26, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, I've gone ahead and moved the entry, renaming it "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism". I think this solves some of the problems. If there is a desire to create a different entry attempting to encompass a much broader perspective, please do so. By specifying the Paganism component, I think it is more strongly oriented toward the religious and spiritual aspects in addition to the purely methodological approach. This was my original intent in starting this entry. Note that I used only the "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism Essay" as an external source for this entry. This is because I was attempting to describe this particular NeoPagan tradition, not the general use of the term CR.
Because of this new title and more specific focus, I'm going to start revising the entry to more accurately reflect this shift. -- Pigman 06:56, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
This is a good article (as it stands on 11 Sept 2005) but could do with a little more structuring. General Wikipedia practice is to have a short introduction that defines the term and sets it in a context (the first couple of paras do that well) and then headings for the other sections. The remainder of what currently looks like the introcuction moves between historical development and methodology. perhaps these could be pulled into two sections, with headings, History and Methodology? First historical mention, on the other hand, would make more sense as a subhead of history. Other sections which should be added are References (where would CR be without references!) and Bibliography. The typical Wikipedia order is References, Bibliography, External Links. There is already one reference , "Spring, 1992 issue of Harvest Magazine" which should be added in the references section (ideally with a page number). Wikipedia:Manual of Style and in particular Wikipedia:Cite sources may be useful. -- Nantonos 04:02, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I can't locate my '79 edition of Drawing Down the Moon. If any of you find yours before I do, could you check something: I'm pretty sure the quote from Isaac is also in the original version. I credited it to the revised edition because it's all I could find at the time, but if we can confirm its place in the original edition, that's the one that should be cited. Kathryn NicDhàna 06:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a couple of items to the Bibliography, but maybe it would be better to mention them in the context of historical development of CR as well (and thus, move them to References). The 1994 What We Don't Know About the Ancient Celts by Rowan Fairgrove is a much cited work that I believe had an impact on the development of CR, and Alexei's Apple Branch is also much cited (although I don't consider it his best work, by a long way, it undoubtedly had an impact on developments). -- Nantonos 04:02, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I have to re-read Rowan's article (btw, typo on the article page - you called her "Robin"), as it's been a long time and I don't remember what I thought of it at the time. Also, though Alexei has become a strong influence in some branches of CR, a number CRs do not consider "Apple Branch" a CR book, per se. Kathryn NicDhàna 06:33, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree with your "Green-tinged Wicca" opinion. Alexei himself has become a valuable contributor to the Imbas list, and has a lot of influence in that branch of CR, but I think too many CRs are not comfortable calling the book CR (or, at least not without a long list of books besides it). However, do we really want to haggle about what does and doesn't belong in this biblio? We have an extensive biblio with the CR Essay, which was worked out by consensus. We could do a shorter biblio for this entry, but there are only a few of us participating in this Wikipedia entry right now, while the CR Essay was written collectively by representatives of a number of longstanding CR sub-trads. I've been tending to see this entry as a shorter version of that essay, but with room to cover some of the things we didn't go into there for space reasons. Right now any biblio has to be rather long and diverse, as I think Erynn's book is the only one really written about CR practice so far. Others will hopefully be published soon, but aren't in print yet. Kathryn NicDhàna 19:58, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
There is a current discussion at Talk:Gaelic Traditionalism that touches upon this article and that the regular editors of this article may be able to provide helpful input about. Jkelly 20:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
(Additional text removed and put on Iain's User page in the interests of condensing discussion. -- Pigman 04:25, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
Hi, Iain. I think one of the things that has been confusing is that our movements have always had significant overlap. There were at the beginning, and still are, many people who see the goals, methods and priorities of our movements as identical, and there are also people who personally identify as both CR and GT. In our recent discussions a number of things have become clear to me:
My impression that Modern, Polytheistic, Diasporic GT (DGT) was a "spinoff" of CR is due to the fact that I only heard about Clannada (the first DGT group) in the late nineties. Clannada was described to me by both former members and outside observers as a Celtic Reconstructionist group. It hadn't occured to me that those who told me this were only speaking for themselves, and not for the official CNG position. I apologize for this confusion.
I hope that as our recent dialogue continues, and we both become aware of the ways in which recent, temporary participants in our communities have skewed our public images, we will both do a better job at clarifying what our traditions are about. I am hopeful that we can help people realize that CR is not a bunch of eclectic Neopagans, pillaging Celtic cultures for exotic bling to spice up their eclectic practices, and that Diasporic GTs are not creepy racist re-enactors and gun nuts, living in their own fantasies and spewing hatred at those they perceive as "outsiders".
Assuming things continue to improve, I am also hopeful that eventually the GT (or DGT) article can be salvaged in some form, and perhaps include some small section in both that article and the CR article briefly discussing the commonalities and differences between the movements. However, I must say (with some amusement) that the more you and I and our other colleagues talk, the more I am having trouble seeing how we actually differ :-)
Beannachdan, --
Kathryn NicDhàna 17:42, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Iain Mac an tSaoir 22:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC)Iain Mac an tSaoir
After consulting with two of the other main authors of this Wikipedia article, User:Whateley23 and User:Pigman, we have decided to drop "Neopagan" from our description of CR. While the term "Neopagan" is still technically, linguistically correct for what we are (as the Pagan/Polytheistic part of our tradition is reconstructed, not unbroken), we have come to realize that "Neopagan" has come to carry many, related meanings that are in direct conflict with our beliefs. While many CRs do consider ourselves Pagans, and either participate in the broader Pagan community or at least see some members of that community as our allies, "Neopaganism" has, for most, come to imply Wiccan-based eclectic traditions, and modern creations that are based on fantasy and/or cultural appropriation. As CR does not include eclecticism, or Wicca, and we are adamantly opposed to ripping off other cultures, we regrettably are coming to see that it is misleading, at least in a colloquial sense, to refer to ourselves as Neopagan. This move is not meant to insult those in the Neopagan community who are not engaging in cultural appropriation, but rather out of our need to not carry the baggage that has come to be intertwined with that term in the popular lexicon. -- Kathryn NicDhàna 18:49, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
WaynaQhapaq, the Celts did practice slavery. I'm not happy about it, but it's the historical record. Could you discuss these changes you've made here on the talk page? I think this info about Caesar is a tangent, and mostly outside the scope of this article. Perhaps it would be better to keep the mention shorter, if included at all, and then link to some of the other places on Wikipedia where those controversies are discussed? -- Kathryn NicDhàna 00:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
practice slavery, only that the only source that claims that they did engage in the practices in question is that of the Romans, which may or may not be biased, and that so far, archaeologists have not found significant evidence supporting the idea that the celts practiced human sacrifice. It is necessary and proper that such information shall be included in this article, as it reflects the current understanding of both historians and archaeologists, as well as other scholars. I am as dismayed as I am sure you are, that the historical record of Celtic civilisation is so scetchy, but the known facts must be represented fairly and equally. I suggest you read Celtic Polytheism and post on the discussion page before making further reverts. Thank you. WaynaQhapaq 22:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, this subtle renaming/caps issue is actually a rather large problem. Since 1992 at the latest, "Celtic Reconstructionism" and "Celtic Reconstructionist" have been established as tradition names. This is different from "Celtic reconstructionism", and brings up a lot of the "method and/or tradition" issues we juggled at the beginning of this process. I think it is inappropriate to subltly refocus the article this way, and without any discussion on the talk page. Therefore I am returning this to the name we agreed on. I would also note these changes have just been made to all Reconstructionist traditions over on the Polytheistic Reconstructionism (now Polytheistic reconstructionism) page. Interested editors may want to go look at that, too. -- Kathryn NicDhàna 17:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I have made substantial headway on the footnotes. More needs to be done, but I think the headway is sufficient to now only flag particular statements, if needed, and not the entire article. I plan on adding more footnotes tomorrow, and hopefully refining the formatting, but I am new to incorporating footnotes so please bear with me as I work on this.
If you look through the CR FAQ citations, you might notice that there are a few paragraphs in this article that are substantially the same as some in the FAQ. These are not copyright violations. What happened, to the best of my knowledge, is that a few of the same people worked on both this article and the FAQ. The FAQ was written on a private Wiki, and some of the co-authors have said they were working on both documents at once. As the web version of the FAQ is open to limited electronic reproduction, I am pretty sure this qualifies as dual licensing. I will do some more research into this, but I think the overlaps are within the bounds of dual licensing. What I am certain of is that none of the authors of the FAQ see this article as a copyright violation. -- Pigman ( talk • contribs) 08:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
“ | Statement On Reproducing Or Reprinting This Text Copyright ©2006 NicDhàna, Laurie, Vermeers and ní Dhoireann. Not to be reproduced for sale without the express, written permission of the authors. [1] |
” |
Aurrad is not Irish, and does not even look like an Irish word. Whatever language it is, it is at the very least not modern Irish. - Panu Höglund from the Irish language wikipedia.
Um, I don't think it is acceptable for a WP editor to reference their own original research as a source for this article, is it? I refer to the many uses of reference to the work of User:Kathryn NicDhàna. Has any of this been published by a third party? Or is it all web-based? Who owns the site from which it is sourced? Does anybody know? Frater Xyzzy 17:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you've just confirmed that some of the sources are essentially self-published original research, done by one of the editors of this article. That's really not kosher. All information based on this non-academic private research project which informally solicited contributions from the Internet will have to be removed. Frater Xyzzy 20:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Can the amateur original research conducted by one of the editors of this article ( Kathryn NicDhàna) and published on the web (by a group of her associates) be considered a reliable source?
Comment: I am one of the owners of the paganachd.com domain. I am the primary webcrafter for the site, and had the largest edit-count on the collectively-authored, consensus document, "The CR FAQ". However, if you check the credits page of the FAQ and the Introduction (linked twice on every page of the document) you will see that I am not the sole author, nor did I have, nor do I have, editorial control over the contents of the document - it was done by consensus, using a private Wiki, and all eight main co-authors signed off on it, as did over 360 members of the CR community who provided feedback.Contributors to the document are listed roughly in order of edit-count, and you may contact other co-authors if you desire to confirm this.
While as a member of the CR community and one of the founders of the tradition, I have contributed to the CR article as an " expert", I am not the creator nor sole author of the Wiki article. Nor is the article about me, though I am mentioned. I can't really get around the fact that I co-coined the term CR, however there are published sources that confirm this, and the article has a variety of third-party sources. Perhaps Pigman was over-zealous in his quoting of the FAQ, but it is a mischaracterization to the call the FAQ "mine" or "my research". Perhaps I have contributed to the article over-much, but after others named me in the article I have scaled back my participation in it, mostly adding a few clarifiers and footnotes. (PS - hotlinked the "expert" bit above, although Pigman is the one who put in the FAQ footnotes) -- Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 23:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
PS Also, I have been open, candid and transparent about my identity, background, and role in CR since my very first contributions to Wikipedia (in July of 2005). To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time anyone has made an issue of it. I believe my edits speak for themselves in terms of NPOV. Like all Wikipedians, I have learned as I have gone along. The times I have made edits that I have later realized may not have completely conformed to WP standards, I have gone back and changed them. -- Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 00:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
You should pipe down a little bit, Frater -- skepticism is good, yes, but there is nothing wrong with Kathryn's approach. WP:RS is relative to the nature of the subject. Random websites are not "RS" for academic subjects, but since CRP is a topic of popular culture and new religious movements, it is perfectly fair to report the self-description of groups, as self-descriptions, reserving due weight considerations of the notability of the group/site/author within the article's subject. dab (𒁳) 11:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
undent. Well, that's interesting, but I don't think knowing the process helps us. If you could get it published by a reputable publisher, that would help. Or if you could explain how you are qualified by degree and previous published research, that would help also. I find it hard to take Livejournal as the basis for anything serious. Jefferson Anderson 21:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The answer is quite simple: (a) if it is material that has not been published by a reputable source, don't use it; (b) the assessment about if that website is a reputable source or not is quite simple: is that website is a personal website it cannpt be used as a source, unless that person is a recognized authority in the field; and (c) the user himself/herself cannont cite his own work as per WP:AUTO and/or WP:COI. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Mediation request duly noted. These and the other articles you have stripped sources from today are advanced articles and the addition or removal of sources needs discussion. Quit being hysterical. Admins Jkelly and dab both commented at the RFC - your statement here is false. You are editing without consensus. - WeniWidiWiki 19:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
It might be useful at some point to also provide some text on the connections between CR and other Reconstructionists. The new edition (2006) of Drawing Down the Moon has this on p.299: "Today, Heathens are forging ties with many other traditions: Native American tribes and Hellenic, Celtic, and Kemetic (Ancient Egyptian) Reconstructionists." Just a thought. -- Pigman ( talk • contribs) 05:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Though two admins dab, and Jkelly, have said there was nothing wrong with citing the FAQ (respectively, "...there is nothing wrong with Kathryn's approach." and "It is not at all unusual for us to be sourcing uncontroversial information about an organisation to that organisation's website."), it did at least visually appear that the FAQ was over-cited in this article, and that did seem to cause distress to some. From what he has said, I think Pigman initially cited a number of the specific FAQ pages to make it easier for readers to more easily locate the relevant sections. So in order to lessen the number of individual links to the FAQ, I have reduced the mentions to a single link (to the index page). If other editors preferred it the other way, feel free to put specific page and bookmark links back in, however, I did more than that so a simple revert would not be ideal. I also went through and added more of the obviously third-party sources, sometimes replacing the FAQ cite, but in other cases keeping it as a dual or triple citation.
I would appreciate it if one of our admins or other editors would look it over now, and, if you see fit, please go through and remove the unreliable source? flags that Frater Xyzzy zealously placed throughout the piece. -- Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 03:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
After reading through all the "poisoning the well" and "strawman" argumentum ad hominem being bandied about concerning sourcing this article, as well as concurring with dab's statement: " WP:RS is relative to the nature of the subject. Random websites are not "RS" for academic subjects, but since CRP is a topic of popular culture and new religious movements, it is perfectly fair to report the self-description of groups, as self-descriptions, reserving due weight considerations of the notability of the group/site/author within the article's subject." I have looked at the sourcing for the tagged material and think that it is reasonable to remove the {{vc}} tags at this point because the C&R faq is not the only subject cited in numerous tagged instances, and because a bit of research shows that, indeed, like many other articles which have been spuriously tagged by drive-by editors recently, most of this information is verifiable. - WeniWidiWiki 00:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I found this issue, ironically enough, while reading through the Starwood arbitration, where amusingly Kathryn and Pigman are accusing another user Rosencomet of both conflict of interest and link spamming in a situation which is incredibly similar to this one (i.e. using links to his site as citations). Needless to say, I support Jefferson Anderson here. I think that:
Sincerely, 999 ( Talk) 00:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
When I originally inserted the "CR FAQ" citation, I thought it would be useful to indicate the exact page and bookmark for people to be able to read more on the specific topics. The RfC (above on this talk page), while not definitive, indicated that there was nothing wrong with using the FAQ as a source. However, since some editors seem concerned about this, I've removed all use of the FAQ as a reference source. The rest of the third party references provide thorough support for every instance the FAQ was used so I don't think there should be a problem with the sourcing now. -- Pigman talk • contribs 01:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
is anyone aware of a published interview or article (such as her article in The Druid Renaissance) with Erynn Laurie in which she discusses when she began using the term? if not, should we just remove the statement? Whateley23 05:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see this exchange until now, but why don't we just move the sentence to the talk page and re-add it if sources turn up? "Some time in the '90s" is pretty vague.- WeniWidiWiki 00:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I just went ahead and pulled it: "Erynn Rowan Laurie also began using the name "Celtic Reconstructionist" some time in the '90s, though "NeoCeltic" was her initial term of choice." Diff - WeniWidiWiki 01:28, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
as a result, i'm doing some last-minute, as it were, cleanup. Whateley23 02:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Be kind. This is my first Wikipedia entry and I'm still learning the conventions. I've read the tutorial and everything but this entry is lacking "wikifying" and perhaps more extensive external sources or even more internal sources and connections. I'll try to work on it some more later but any tips or suggestions for improving the language or to make it more "Wiki" consistant would be extremely welcome. Pigman 06:43, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
What do you think would be the best way to discuss the alternate terms for Celtic Reconstructionism or branches/variations of CR, such as Celtic Restorationism, Neo-Celtism, Senistrognata, Seandagnatha, Ildiachas/Iol-Diadhachas, Gaelic Traditionalism, and so on. Whateley23 19:30, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Added another couple of brief paragraphs on the history of CR, and the importance of balancing the scholarly and the mystical. Pigman and I worked together on clarifying some bits of his initial entry.
Added a couple more names of sub-trads. Removed GT from the CR sub-trads as, though the GT groups we're aware of initially considered themselves CR, they don't any more.
Today's initial changes are under 63.22.0.227, as I hadn't created an account yet. Kathryn NicDhàna 21:12, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
yeah, i understand that the GTs don't consider themselves CR, but they make use of the same general methodologies (and some still associate closely with predominately CR organizations). since CR can be considered a methodology rather than a religion in itself (though it can also be considered the latter - the term has become somewhat ambiguous), i felt that it was appropriate to include it. Whateley23 22:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Many people do consider CR a religion itself or, perhaps more accurately, an umbrella term covering a number of religions and spiritual traditions. Perhaps we will need to do more work to clarify when we are using "CR" to mean an approach, and when we are using "CR" to mean a religion. As an approach, yes, the polytheistic, split off from CR, GTs use the same methods; but as a community - very different feel and goals. And "Celtic Traditionalist" is another thing as well. Some GTs are closer to CT than CR. Other GTs (the ones with an older claim to the term) are actually Catholics. Kathryn NicDhàna 04:39, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
The article would benefit from a discussion of how Celtic Reconstruction differs from Neo-druidism, if in fact it does differ from it. Also "human sacrifice, slavery, and other strongly patriarchal elements" is far from NPOV, so I'm removing the "other". -- Angr/ tɔk tə mi 18:42, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
i've added a section discussing the differences between neo-druids and crs, though i am not entirely happy with it. this may be due to my dissatisfaction with attempts (including my own) to define by differentiating in the past. i did try to emphasize that there is quite a bit of similarity, but that there are differing objectives. Whateley23 22:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
since there has been no discussion beyond the two comments, i'd like to put the matter up for a vote. feel free to include a short sentence, if you like:
Include Gaelic Traditionalism
Do Not Include
If you insist on mentioning GT in this, please only do so as an historical footnote. We are adamantly opposed to simply listing GT as a "sub-trad" of CR. Pigman and Kathryn NicDhàna
So, it would be reasonable to mention the derivation of GT commuity in the historical development of CR, indicate that they have since diverged, and give GT its own page if it does not already have one. -- Nantonos 03:38, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
02:00, 24 January 2006(UTC)
Hi, this is Iain Mac an tSaoir. All of this was brought to my attention. Maybe I can clarify a little. Gaelic Traditionalism came up independently from CR. In the late 1890's an English woman wrote disparagingly about Irish people not giving up their indigenous ways, and these she termed "Gaelic traditionalists". The term sat fallow from about 1896 until mid-1994. In July 1994, based upon personal experiences with, and encouragement from, Native American Traditionalists, I coined the terms, "Gaelic Traditionalism" (a way of life expressed by living the Gaelic cultural traditions as the culture alone defines that), and "Gaelic Traditionalists" (those who hold steadfast to the cultural traditions as the Gaelic cultures alone define them). I also founded the
Clannada na Gadelica to attempt at standing up for the historical Celtic and Gaelic traditions as the cultures alone define those, and, bringing the Gaelic Traditions to Gaelic Diasporan peoples.
I was not raised in a Gaeltacht, nor did I have the benefit of a family who had retained the cultural traditions. It was a long hard road to find them, and it was as hard to change from being a typical sassanach into a cultural Gael. In its infancy the CnG did have errant materials. However, the dedication was always to the cultural tradition as the culture alone defines that tradition. Hence, as more was learned those errors were corrected. It took a couple of years but it finely got square. I wish that so many people did not have to witness my growing up into a Gael, but they did. Some few still hold against me things from before I became culturalized. I have apologized for those things and tried to make restitution where such was needed. More yet, most of those with a grudge, hold against me my refusal to let the Clannada na Gadelica be anything other than a place for Gaelic Traditionalism. Probably not so much what I my goal was as how I went about it. But like I said, eventually things got into square.
To be concise, Gaelic Traditionalism is about the Gaelic cultural traditions as the Gaelic cultures define them. There are some who have other ways of addresseing the implementation in daily living, particularly to how to form and maintain communities. Yes, early on there were some CR people involved in the Clannada. But they didn't stick around. It was a difficult time then. As pertains to your entry, no GT is not a subset of CR, because while it came public around the same time, it did so independently, and with a focus on bringing the cultural traditions, as the cultures defines them, to people who want to live them.
I hope this helps. Iain —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
Iain_Mac_an_tSaoir (
talk •
contribs) .
Pigman and I have been discussing this. He should have titled this Wikipedia article, like the linked CR Essay, "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism (CR)". The disagreements we are starting to have in this entry seem to me to stem from some of the participants in this process seeing CR as primarily a spiritual tradition, and others as simply a methodology - a type of Celtic Studies with some sort of action coming out of that study. The former is a much more focused, and smaller entity, which a group of us have been working to define for the past fifteen to twenty years. The latter is something much huger than the spiritual movement we are describing in the early versions of this entry, and which seems to encompass anyone doing any sort of reconstruction work, whether or not they share any of the same religious/spiritual values. I don't think these two visions are harmonious enough to coexist indefinitely, and maybe we should split the categories in two in some way. If not, we must tackle these somewhat conflicting (and somewhat overlapping) views soon or I suspect this will be rather confusing for people. Kathryn NicDhàna 05:33, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I'm seriously thinking of changing the heading of the entry. What I envisioned this article to represent is much closer to the specificity of "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism" rather than the issues of a broader and more general use of the term "Celtic Reconstruction". I think it would be an excellent idea to split these apart. This would alleviate the confusion obviously inherent between people attempting to merge these differing strains. -- Pigman 05:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
i think that it would be best to try to explain that there are two primary concepts which are referred to by the name "Celtic Reconstructionism". i'd like to think that i've already made some effort to disambiguate the two usages a bit in the article as it stands, but i don't think i've been slighting either usage, either. Whateley23 06:26, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, I've gone ahead and moved the entry, renaming it "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism". I think this solves some of the problems. If there is a desire to create a different entry attempting to encompass a much broader perspective, please do so. By specifying the Paganism component, I think it is more strongly oriented toward the religious and spiritual aspects in addition to the purely methodological approach. This was my original intent in starting this entry. Note that I used only the "Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism Essay" as an external source for this entry. This is because I was attempting to describe this particular NeoPagan tradition, not the general use of the term CR.
Because of this new title and more specific focus, I'm going to start revising the entry to more accurately reflect this shift. -- Pigman 06:56, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
This is a good article (as it stands on 11 Sept 2005) but could do with a little more structuring. General Wikipedia practice is to have a short introduction that defines the term and sets it in a context (the first couple of paras do that well) and then headings for the other sections. The remainder of what currently looks like the introcuction moves between historical development and methodology. perhaps these could be pulled into two sections, with headings, History and Methodology? First historical mention, on the other hand, would make more sense as a subhead of history. Other sections which should be added are References (where would CR be without references!) and Bibliography. The typical Wikipedia order is References, Bibliography, External Links. There is already one reference , "Spring, 1992 issue of Harvest Magazine" which should be added in the references section (ideally with a page number). Wikipedia:Manual of Style and in particular Wikipedia:Cite sources may be useful. -- Nantonos 04:02, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I can't locate my '79 edition of Drawing Down the Moon. If any of you find yours before I do, could you check something: I'm pretty sure the quote from Isaac is also in the original version. I credited it to the revised edition because it's all I could find at the time, but if we can confirm its place in the original edition, that's the one that should be cited. Kathryn NicDhàna 06:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a couple of items to the Bibliography, but maybe it would be better to mention them in the context of historical development of CR as well (and thus, move them to References). The 1994 What We Don't Know About the Ancient Celts by Rowan Fairgrove is a much cited work that I believe had an impact on the development of CR, and Alexei's Apple Branch is also much cited (although I don't consider it his best work, by a long way, it undoubtedly had an impact on developments). -- Nantonos 04:02, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I have to re-read Rowan's article (btw, typo on the article page - you called her "Robin"), as it's been a long time and I don't remember what I thought of it at the time. Also, though Alexei has become a strong influence in some branches of CR, a number CRs do not consider "Apple Branch" a CR book, per se. Kathryn NicDhàna 06:33, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree with your "Green-tinged Wicca" opinion. Alexei himself has become a valuable contributor to the Imbas list, and has a lot of influence in that branch of CR, but I think too many CRs are not comfortable calling the book CR (or, at least not without a long list of books besides it). However, do we really want to haggle about what does and doesn't belong in this biblio? We have an extensive biblio with the CR Essay, which was worked out by consensus. We could do a shorter biblio for this entry, but there are only a few of us participating in this Wikipedia entry right now, while the CR Essay was written collectively by representatives of a number of longstanding CR sub-trads. I've been tending to see this entry as a shorter version of that essay, but with room to cover some of the things we didn't go into there for space reasons. Right now any biblio has to be rather long and diverse, as I think Erynn's book is the only one really written about CR practice so far. Others will hopefully be published soon, but aren't in print yet. Kathryn NicDhàna 19:58, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
There is a current discussion at Talk:Gaelic Traditionalism that touches upon this article and that the regular editors of this article may be able to provide helpful input about. Jkelly 20:18, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
(Additional text removed and put on Iain's User page in the interests of condensing discussion. -- Pigman 04:25, 1 March 2006 (UTC))
Hi, Iain. I think one of the things that has been confusing is that our movements have always had significant overlap. There were at the beginning, and still are, many people who see the goals, methods and priorities of our movements as identical, and there are also people who personally identify as both CR and GT. In our recent discussions a number of things have become clear to me:
My impression that Modern, Polytheistic, Diasporic GT (DGT) was a "spinoff" of CR is due to the fact that I only heard about Clannada (the first DGT group) in the late nineties. Clannada was described to me by both former members and outside observers as a Celtic Reconstructionist group. It hadn't occured to me that those who told me this were only speaking for themselves, and not for the official CNG position. I apologize for this confusion.
I hope that as our recent dialogue continues, and we both become aware of the ways in which recent, temporary participants in our communities have skewed our public images, we will both do a better job at clarifying what our traditions are about. I am hopeful that we can help people realize that CR is not a bunch of eclectic Neopagans, pillaging Celtic cultures for exotic bling to spice up their eclectic practices, and that Diasporic GTs are not creepy racist re-enactors and gun nuts, living in their own fantasies and spewing hatred at those they perceive as "outsiders".
Assuming things continue to improve, I am also hopeful that eventually the GT (or DGT) article can be salvaged in some form, and perhaps include some small section in both that article and the CR article briefly discussing the commonalities and differences between the movements. However, I must say (with some amusement) that the more you and I and our other colleagues talk, the more I am having trouble seeing how we actually differ :-)
Beannachdan, --
Kathryn NicDhàna 17:42, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Iain Mac an tSaoir 22:47, 19 April 2006 (UTC)Iain Mac an tSaoir
After consulting with two of the other main authors of this Wikipedia article, User:Whateley23 and User:Pigman, we have decided to drop "Neopagan" from our description of CR. While the term "Neopagan" is still technically, linguistically correct for what we are (as the Pagan/Polytheistic part of our tradition is reconstructed, not unbroken), we have come to realize that "Neopagan" has come to carry many, related meanings that are in direct conflict with our beliefs. While many CRs do consider ourselves Pagans, and either participate in the broader Pagan community or at least see some members of that community as our allies, "Neopaganism" has, for most, come to imply Wiccan-based eclectic traditions, and modern creations that are based on fantasy and/or cultural appropriation. As CR does not include eclecticism, or Wicca, and we are adamantly opposed to ripping off other cultures, we regrettably are coming to see that it is misleading, at least in a colloquial sense, to refer to ourselves as Neopagan. This move is not meant to insult those in the Neopagan community who are not engaging in cultural appropriation, but rather out of our need to not carry the baggage that has come to be intertwined with that term in the popular lexicon. -- Kathryn NicDhàna 18:49, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
WaynaQhapaq, the Celts did practice slavery. I'm not happy about it, but it's the historical record. Could you discuss these changes you've made here on the talk page? I think this info about Caesar is a tangent, and mostly outside the scope of this article. Perhaps it would be better to keep the mention shorter, if included at all, and then link to some of the other places on Wikipedia where those controversies are discussed? -- Kathryn NicDhàna 00:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
practice slavery, only that the only source that claims that they did engage in the practices in question is that of the Romans, which may or may not be biased, and that so far, archaeologists have not found significant evidence supporting the idea that the celts practiced human sacrifice. It is necessary and proper that such information shall be included in this article, as it reflects the current understanding of both historians and archaeologists, as well as other scholars. I am as dismayed as I am sure you are, that the historical record of Celtic civilisation is so scetchy, but the known facts must be represented fairly and equally. I suggest you read Celtic Polytheism and post on the discussion page before making further reverts. Thank you. WaynaQhapaq 22:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, this subtle renaming/caps issue is actually a rather large problem. Since 1992 at the latest, "Celtic Reconstructionism" and "Celtic Reconstructionist" have been established as tradition names. This is different from "Celtic reconstructionism", and brings up a lot of the "method and/or tradition" issues we juggled at the beginning of this process. I think it is inappropriate to subltly refocus the article this way, and without any discussion on the talk page. Therefore I am returning this to the name we agreed on. I would also note these changes have just been made to all Reconstructionist traditions over on the Polytheistic Reconstructionism (now Polytheistic reconstructionism) page. Interested editors may want to go look at that, too. -- Kathryn NicDhàna 17:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I have made substantial headway on the footnotes. More needs to be done, but I think the headway is sufficient to now only flag particular statements, if needed, and not the entire article. I plan on adding more footnotes tomorrow, and hopefully refining the formatting, but I am new to incorporating footnotes so please bear with me as I work on this.
If you look through the CR FAQ citations, you might notice that there are a few paragraphs in this article that are substantially the same as some in the FAQ. These are not copyright violations. What happened, to the best of my knowledge, is that a few of the same people worked on both this article and the FAQ. The FAQ was written on a private Wiki, and some of the co-authors have said they were working on both documents at once. As the web version of the FAQ is open to limited electronic reproduction, I am pretty sure this qualifies as dual licensing. I will do some more research into this, but I think the overlaps are within the bounds of dual licensing. What I am certain of is that none of the authors of the FAQ see this article as a copyright violation. -- Pigman ( talk • contribs) 08:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
“ | Statement On Reproducing Or Reprinting This Text Copyright ©2006 NicDhàna, Laurie, Vermeers and ní Dhoireann. Not to be reproduced for sale without the express, written permission of the authors. [1] |
” |
Aurrad is not Irish, and does not even look like an Irish word. Whatever language it is, it is at the very least not modern Irish. - Panu Höglund from the Irish language wikipedia.
Um, I don't think it is acceptable for a WP editor to reference their own original research as a source for this article, is it? I refer to the many uses of reference to the work of User:Kathryn NicDhàna. Has any of this been published by a third party? Or is it all web-based? Who owns the site from which it is sourced? Does anybody know? Frater Xyzzy 17:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you've just confirmed that some of the sources are essentially self-published original research, done by one of the editors of this article. That's really not kosher. All information based on this non-academic private research project which informally solicited contributions from the Internet will have to be removed. Frater Xyzzy 20:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Can the amateur original research conducted by one of the editors of this article ( Kathryn NicDhàna) and published on the web (by a group of her associates) be considered a reliable source?
Comment: I am one of the owners of the paganachd.com domain. I am the primary webcrafter for the site, and had the largest edit-count on the collectively-authored, consensus document, "The CR FAQ". However, if you check the credits page of the FAQ and the Introduction (linked twice on every page of the document) you will see that I am not the sole author, nor did I have, nor do I have, editorial control over the contents of the document - it was done by consensus, using a private Wiki, and all eight main co-authors signed off on it, as did over 360 members of the CR community who provided feedback.Contributors to the document are listed roughly in order of edit-count, and you may contact other co-authors if you desire to confirm this.
While as a member of the CR community and one of the founders of the tradition, I have contributed to the CR article as an " expert", I am not the creator nor sole author of the Wiki article. Nor is the article about me, though I am mentioned. I can't really get around the fact that I co-coined the term CR, however there are published sources that confirm this, and the article has a variety of third-party sources. Perhaps Pigman was over-zealous in his quoting of the FAQ, but it is a mischaracterization to the call the FAQ "mine" or "my research". Perhaps I have contributed to the article over-much, but after others named me in the article I have scaled back my participation in it, mostly adding a few clarifiers and footnotes. (PS - hotlinked the "expert" bit above, although Pigman is the one who put in the FAQ footnotes) -- Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 23:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
PS Also, I have been open, candid and transparent about my identity, background, and role in CR since my very first contributions to Wikipedia (in July of 2005). To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time anyone has made an issue of it. I believe my edits speak for themselves in terms of NPOV. Like all Wikipedians, I have learned as I have gone along. The times I have made edits that I have later realized may not have completely conformed to WP standards, I have gone back and changed them. -- Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 00:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
You should pipe down a little bit, Frater -- skepticism is good, yes, but there is nothing wrong with Kathryn's approach. WP:RS is relative to the nature of the subject. Random websites are not "RS" for academic subjects, but since CRP is a topic of popular culture and new religious movements, it is perfectly fair to report the self-description of groups, as self-descriptions, reserving due weight considerations of the notability of the group/site/author within the article's subject. dab (𒁳) 11:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
undent. Well, that's interesting, but I don't think knowing the process helps us. If you could get it published by a reputable publisher, that would help. Or if you could explain how you are qualified by degree and previous published research, that would help also. I find it hard to take Livejournal as the basis for anything serious. Jefferson Anderson 21:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The answer is quite simple: (a) if it is material that has not been published by a reputable source, don't use it; (b) the assessment about if that website is a reputable source or not is quite simple: is that website is a personal website it cannpt be used as a source, unless that person is a recognized authority in the field; and (c) the user himself/herself cannont cite his own work as per WP:AUTO and/or WP:COI. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Mediation request duly noted. These and the other articles you have stripped sources from today are advanced articles and the addition or removal of sources needs discussion. Quit being hysterical. Admins Jkelly and dab both commented at the RFC - your statement here is false. You are editing without consensus. - WeniWidiWiki 19:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
It might be useful at some point to also provide some text on the connections between CR and other Reconstructionists. The new edition (2006) of Drawing Down the Moon has this on p.299: "Today, Heathens are forging ties with many other traditions: Native American tribes and Hellenic, Celtic, and Kemetic (Ancient Egyptian) Reconstructionists." Just a thought. -- Pigman ( talk • contribs) 05:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Though two admins dab, and Jkelly, have said there was nothing wrong with citing the FAQ (respectively, "...there is nothing wrong with Kathryn's approach." and "It is not at all unusual for us to be sourcing uncontroversial information about an organisation to that organisation's website."), it did at least visually appear that the FAQ was over-cited in this article, and that did seem to cause distress to some. From what he has said, I think Pigman initially cited a number of the specific FAQ pages to make it easier for readers to more easily locate the relevant sections. So in order to lessen the number of individual links to the FAQ, I have reduced the mentions to a single link (to the index page). If other editors preferred it the other way, feel free to put specific page and bookmark links back in, however, I did more than that so a simple revert would not be ideal. I also went through and added more of the obviously third-party sources, sometimes replacing the FAQ cite, but in other cases keeping it as a dual or triple citation.
I would appreciate it if one of our admins or other editors would look it over now, and, if you see fit, please go through and remove the unreliable source? flags that Frater Xyzzy zealously placed throughout the piece. -- Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦ ♫ 03:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
After reading through all the "poisoning the well" and "strawman" argumentum ad hominem being bandied about concerning sourcing this article, as well as concurring with dab's statement: " WP:RS is relative to the nature of the subject. Random websites are not "RS" for academic subjects, but since CRP is a topic of popular culture and new religious movements, it is perfectly fair to report the self-description of groups, as self-descriptions, reserving due weight considerations of the notability of the group/site/author within the article's subject." I have looked at the sourcing for the tagged material and think that it is reasonable to remove the {{vc}} tags at this point because the C&R faq is not the only subject cited in numerous tagged instances, and because a bit of research shows that, indeed, like many other articles which have been spuriously tagged by drive-by editors recently, most of this information is verifiable. - WeniWidiWiki 00:26, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I found this issue, ironically enough, while reading through the Starwood arbitration, where amusingly Kathryn and Pigman are accusing another user Rosencomet of both conflict of interest and link spamming in a situation which is incredibly similar to this one (i.e. using links to his site as citations). Needless to say, I support Jefferson Anderson here. I think that:
Sincerely, 999 ( Talk) 00:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
When I originally inserted the "CR FAQ" citation, I thought it would be useful to indicate the exact page and bookmark for people to be able to read more on the specific topics. The RfC (above on this talk page), while not definitive, indicated that there was nothing wrong with using the FAQ as a source. However, since some editors seem concerned about this, I've removed all use of the FAQ as a reference source. The rest of the third party references provide thorough support for every instance the FAQ was used so I don't think there should be a problem with the sourcing now. -- Pigman talk • contribs 01:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
is anyone aware of a published interview or article (such as her article in The Druid Renaissance) with Erynn Laurie in which she discusses when she began using the term? if not, should we just remove the statement? Whateley23 05:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see this exchange until now, but why don't we just move the sentence to the talk page and re-add it if sources turn up? "Some time in the '90s" is pretty vague.- WeniWidiWiki 00:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I just went ahead and pulled it: "Erynn Rowan Laurie also began using the name "Celtic Reconstructionist" some time in the '90s, though "NeoCeltic" was her initial term of choice." Diff - WeniWidiWiki 01:28, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
as a result, i'm doing some last-minute, as it were, cleanup. Whateley23 02:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)