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That Breaking Benjamin's logo is a variation of the Celtic knot?
Yes, but what are they? - Branddobbe 01:14, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
how are the 8 types of knots broken down and what is the significance of each ?
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefscelticknots.htm This article claims that the true meanings of the knots have been lost, but that archeologists have made guesses as to the meanings of some based on the overall shape of some knots. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.95.29.212 ( talk) 03:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Wiccans, at least real Wiccans, do not make up meanings or assign Celtic Knots magical properties. Because Wicca originates in Ireland (Dating back before Christ in ancient Ireland, not in the 1960's as stated on your Wiccan page, although that was a revival period for some) Celtic Knots are often worn by Wiccans. It often has more to do with their own inherited ethnic culture rather than a spiritual interest.
~Colleen
Perhaps there could be some info on the eras and locations that such art was used? Including (later?) usage on stuff like stones and crosses. I've seen a few (old) stones and crosses with celtic knots on ( i live in cornwall), I think I remember somone saying that (in britain rather than the original celts) there were a few major waves of celtic cross building... not including the present war memorials & stuff! Perhaps mentioning how late/early or not it was used in various forms?
Any closed loop - or any number of closed loops - drawn on a flat surface, no matter how many times they cross themselves and each other, can always be drawn so that each line goes under/over/under (etc) the lines that it crosses. Equivalently, the areas between the lines can always be coulored in with a black and white chequerboard effect.
I have been attempting to track down the needed citation that knotwork styles are Norse in origin. I have not been able to find such a reference, directly, but I have found several citations that seem to contradict this claim. I thought I would run my findings through the discussion page before editing the article.
In Celtic Art, George Bain demonstrates several styles related to knotwork. These come from Egypt, Greece, Persia, Turkey, Africa, and China, but none are from Scandinavia. And later, he reproduces a knot that he identifies as "The order of the 'So-called Viking Ornament' from Lewis, erroneously described as such in The Royal Commission of Ancient Monuments...It is a Pictish Ornament (Viking Loot)"
This seems to imply that Lewis describe at least one knotwork pattern as Viking in origin, but Bain suggests that the artifact actually flowed the other way. I don't have a reference to Lewis' work.
In Celtic Art In Christian and Pagan Times, J. Romilly Allen states that knotwork evolved from the simpler plaitwork form in Italy:
It would appear, then, that the transition from plaitwork to knotwork took place between the Lombard conquest of Italy under Alboin in A.D. 563, and the extinction of the Lombard monarchy by Charlemange in A.D. 774.
And Sir Edward Sullivan agrees with the place if not the date of origin in The Book Of Kells Described by Sir Edward Sullivan:
The immediate origin of this universally characteristic feature of Celtic illumination is in all probability to be found in decorative remains of North Italy and Southern Gaul dating from the second and third centuries. It did not become widely popular in Irish Art until the seventh century.
However, none of these references positively describes the route by which knotwork came to Ireland. Sullivan's date of the 7th century seems to predate the Viking raids on Ireland. The earliest date for those raids that I can find is the 8th century. My conclusion is that knotwork arose in Italy and spread to Ireland, and from there to Scandinavia. Unfortunately, I can not find a citation that explicitly states this.
Based on these references, my inclination is to strike the current paragraph claiming Norse origin and replace it with the following:
Examples of plaitwork (a woven, unbroken cord design) predate knotwork designs in several cultures around the world (Bain), but the broken and reconnected plaitwork that is characteristic of true knotwork begain in Northern Italy and Southern Gaul and spread to Ireland by the 7th century (Sullivan).
Does this seem reasonable?
Drewivan 02:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't this article simply be a part of a larger article entitled "knotwork?" It seems to me that this article hardly touches on the extensive usage of knotwork by the nearby Scandinavian tribes that have deeply influenced the UK since they began invading the area, including Ireland.
What's with the total lack of information regarding the huge amount of knotwork the Norse have used - including the so-called "Celtic Spirals" that appear on Scandinavian art from the period?
I get the impression that the English-speaking world's impression on "knotwork" largely has to do with the Book of Kells, which was obviously a later development, though spared the flame from an "enlightened" new society for obvious reasons.
This article also goes so far out as to assume that knotwork came from Egypt of all places, without even bothering to examine the extensive use by the northernly Germanic tribes right next to the isles that had so deeply influenced not only the ethnic make up but also cultural make up of these areas. :bloodofox: 03:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I just edited a new link, which appears to be commercial so that its description was neutral and stuck it at the bottom of the link list, where I believe new links are meant (policy, no?)to be added. After doing so, I notice that there has been a bit of to-and-fro over this link in the past. Given the extensive resources proferred by some of the other links on this page, is there a case for the inclusion of this link at all - it appears to be an attempt to gain customers? It has been a couple of years since I last edited Wikipedia, so apologies if this is wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.95.29.212 ( talk) 03:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Seriously, I think wiki will cease to exist in a couple of years, when people realise how biased and untrustworthy it is. It's a pity, because many of the hard science articles are really very good.
The fact that this knot design is now called unambitiously as Celtic is just crap. The exact pattern, (what happened to the old and more specific example?, in this article any interwoven lattice work is a Celtic knot.) is definitely Germanic, if we talk about what is usually considered as A celtic knot. Not a bunch of interwoven lattices, but A knot "A". Singular.
This is part of "WikiProject Celts" which shows just how absurdly biased it is, also in the selection of new age books as "sources".
Thank god there are other true sources not related to Wikipeadia.
How can this design possibly be Celtic if it originates within the Anglo-Saxon ruled age, and the pre Anglo-Saxon art was totally different? If anything, it's either an Angle or a Saxon design. Interwoven Lattice designs are found everywhere, but the specific design normally called as a "Celtic knot" design is the same as the Germanic triangular design, it's not like the Roman design. It's clearly a Germanic Triquetra or Valknut, nothing Christian or Celtic at all. Maybe there were not enough sources, but a lot of info has just been completely erased. The examples are pretty ambiguous, which makes it possible to infer that there's a Roman connection here, or indeed, an insular isolate, even though similar designs are present all over northern Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.53.55.197 ( talk) 20:39, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Bollocks. It's Germanic, and the fact that it is, and the fact that the quite correct assumption that it is was met with the sneering reply of 'whatever' only proves this page is nothing more than a page dedicated to lying romantic Celtic claptrap. -- 20:48, 11 September 2019 146.199.159.246
The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 ( talk) 14:56, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Celtic knot →
Knotwork – Most of the content is about knotwork designs of non-Celtic origin. —
Ashley Y
20:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
"Stone Celtic crosses, such as this, are a major source of knowledge regarding Celtic knot design." I'm no expert but the current picture, File:Bromptoncross.jpg, shows a bog-standard Victorian copy of a Celtic cross in Brompton Cemetery (founded 1840), which is not an authentic source. Either a picture of a genuine medieval Celtic cross should be used, or the caption changed. Dave.Dunford ( talk) 13:49, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
They are also white supremecist symbols. Look at any white prison gang and they're tattooed in all kinds of this knotwork all over. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.65.91.78 ( talk) 10:48, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Examples of plait work (a woven, unbroken cord design) predate knotwork designs in several cultures around the world,[2] but the broken and reconnected plait work that is characteristic of true knotwork began in northern Italy and southern Gaul and spread to Ireland by the 7th century.[3]
What do broken and unbroken mean here? Celtic knots are commonly composed of knotted loops. If "broken" here is meant to refer to how intersections break the lines in the 2-D representation seen by the viewer, what would "woven, unbroken" mean? — Undomelin ( talk) 21:50, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
Is there another meaning for a Celtic Knot other than art? Historygeek55590 ( talk) 10:31, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
That Breaking Benjamin's logo is a variation of the Celtic knot?
Yes, but what are they? - Branddobbe 01:14, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
how are the 8 types of knots broken down and what is the significance of each ?
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefscelticknots.htm This article claims that the true meanings of the knots have been lost, but that archeologists have made guesses as to the meanings of some based on the overall shape of some knots. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.95.29.212 ( talk) 03:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Wiccans, at least real Wiccans, do not make up meanings or assign Celtic Knots magical properties. Because Wicca originates in Ireland (Dating back before Christ in ancient Ireland, not in the 1960's as stated on your Wiccan page, although that was a revival period for some) Celtic Knots are often worn by Wiccans. It often has more to do with their own inherited ethnic culture rather than a spiritual interest.
~Colleen
Perhaps there could be some info on the eras and locations that such art was used? Including (later?) usage on stuff like stones and crosses. I've seen a few (old) stones and crosses with celtic knots on ( i live in cornwall), I think I remember somone saying that (in britain rather than the original celts) there were a few major waves of celtic cross building... not including the present war memorials & stuff! Perhaps mentioning how late/early or not it was used in various forms?
Any closed loop - or any number of closed loops - drawn on a flat surface, no matter how many times they cross themselves and each other, can always be drawn so that each line goes under/over/under (etc) the lines that it crosses. Equivalently, the areas between the lines can always be coulored in with a black and white chequerboard effect.
I have been attempting to track down the needed citation that knotwork styles are Norse in origin. I have not been able to find such a reference, directly, but I have found several citations that seem to contradict this claim. I thought I would run my findings through the discussion page before editing the article.
In Celtic Art, George Bain demonstrates several styles related to knotwork. These come from Egypt, Greece, Persia, Turkey, Africa, and China, but none are from Scandinavia. And later, he reproduces a knot that he identifies as "The order of the 'So-called Viking Ornament' from Lewis, erroneously described as such in The Royal Commission of Ancient Monuments...It is a Pictish Ornament (Viking Loot)"
This seems to imply that Lewis describe at least one knotwork pattern as Viking in origin, but Bain suggests that the artifact actually flowed the other way. I don't have a reference to Lewis' work.
In Celtic Art In Christian and Pagan Times, J. Romilly Allen states that knotwork evolved from the simpler plaitwork form in Italy:
It would appear, then, that the transition from plaitwork to knotwork took place between the Lombard conquest of Italy under Alboin in A.D. 563, and the extinction of the Lombard monarchy by Charlemange in A.D. 774.
And Sir Edward Sullivan agrees with the place if not the date of origin in The Book Of Kells Described by Sir Edward Sullivan:
The immediate origin of this universally characteristic feature of Celtic illumination is in all probability to be found in decorative remains of North Italy and Southern Gaul dating from the second and third centuries. It did not become widely popular in Irish Art until the seventh century.
However, none of these references positively describes the route by which knotwork came to Ireland. Sullivan's date of the 7th century seems to predate the Viking raids on Ireland. The earliest date for those raids that I can find is the 8th century. My conclusion is that knotwork arose in Italy and spread to Ireland, and from there to Scandinavia. Unfortunately, I can not find a citation that explicitly states this.
Based on these references, my inclination is to strike the current paragraph claiming Norse origin and replace it with the following:
Examples of plaitwork (a woven, unbroken cord design) predate knotwork designs in several cultures around the world (Bain), but the broken and reconnected plaitwork that is characteristic of true knotwork begain in Northern Italy and Southern Gaul and spread to Ireland by the 7th century (Sullivan).
Does this seem reasonable?
Drewivan 02:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't this article simply be a part of a larger article entitled "knotwork?" It seems to me that this article hardly touches on the extensive usage of knotwork by the nearby Scandinavian tribes that have deeply influenced the UK since they began invading the area, including Ireland.
What's with the total lack of information regarding the huge amount of knotwork the Norse have used - including the so-called "Celtic Spirals" that appear on Scandinavian art from the period?
I get the impression that the English-speaking world's impression on "knotwork" largely has to do with the Book of Kells, which was obviously a later development, though spared the flame from an "enlightened" new society for obvious reasons.
This article also goes so far out as to assume that knotwork came from Egypt of all places, without even bothering to examine the extensive use by the northernly Germanic tribes right next to the isles that had so deeply influenced not only the ethnic make up but also cultural make up of these areas. :bloodofox: 03:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I just edited a new link, which appears to be commercial so that its description was neutral and stuck it at the bottom of the link list, where I believe new links are meant (policy, no?)to be added. After doing so, I notice that there has been a bit of to-and-fro over this link in the past. Given the extensive resources proferred by some of the other links on this page, is there a case for the inclusion of this link at all - it appears to be an attempt to gain customers? It has been a couple of years since I last edited Wikipedia, so apologies if this is wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.95.29.212 ( talk) 03:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Seriously, I think wiki will cease to exist in a couple of years, when people realise how biased and untrustworthy it is. It's a pity, because many of the hard science articles are really very good.
The fact that this knot design is now called unambitiously as Celtic is just crap. The exact pattern, (what happened to the old and more specific example?, in this article any interwoven lattice work is a Celtic knot.) is definitely Germanic, if we talk about what is usually considered as A celtic knot. Not a bunch of interwoven lattices, but A knot "A". Singular.
This is part of "WikiProject Celts" which shows just how absurdly biased it is, also in the selection of new age books as "sources".
Thank god there are other true sources not related to Wikipeadia.
How can this design possibly be Celtic if it originates within the Anglo-Saxon ruled age, and the pre Anglo-Saxon art was totally different? If anything, it's either an Angle or a Saxon design. Interwoven Lattice designs are found everywhere, but the specific design normally called as a "Celtic knot" design is the same as the Germanic triangular design, it's not like the Roman design. It's clearly a Germanic Triquetra or Valknut, nothing Christian or Celtic at all. Maybe there were not enough sources, but a lot of info has just been completely erased. The examples are pretty ambiguous, which makes it possible to infer that there's a Roman connection here, or indeed, an insular isolate, even though similar designs are present all over northern Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.53.55.197 ( talk) 20:39, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Bollocks. It's Germanic, and the fact that it is, and the fact that the quite correct assumption that it is was met with the sneering reply of 'whatever' only proves this page is nothing more than a page dedicated to lying romantic Celtic claptrap. -- 20:48, 11 September 2019 146.199.159.246
The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 ( talk) 14:56, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Celtic knot →
Knotwork – Most of the content is about knotwork designs of non-Celtic origin. —
Ashley Y
20:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
"Stone Celtic crosses, such as this, are a major source of knowledge regarding Celtic knot design." I'm no expert but the current picture, File:Bromptoncross.jpg, shows a bog-standard Victorian copy of a Celtic cross in Brompton Cemetery (founded 1840), which is not an authentic source. Either a picture of a genuine medieval Celtic cross should be used, or the caption changed. Dave.Dunford ( talk) 13:49, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
They are also white supremecist symbols. Look at any white prison gang and they're tattooed in all kinds of this knotwork all over. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.65.91.78 ( talk) 10:48, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
Examples of plait work (a woven, unbroken cord design) predate knotwork designs in several cultures around the world,[2] but the broken and reconnected plait work that is characteristic of true knotwork began in northern Italy and southern Gaul and spread to Ireland by the 7th century.[3]
What do broken and unbroken mean here? Celtic knots are commonly composed of knotted loops. If "broken" here is meant to refer to how intersections break the lines in the 2-D representation seen by the viewer, what would "woven, unbroken" mean? — Undomelin ( talk) 21:50, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
Is there another meaning for a Celtic Knot other than art? Historygeek55590 ( talk) 10:31, 10 July 2020 (UTC)